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For a Table-of-Contents only list of candidates, see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list

Reliable sourcing from different languages

Something is very unsettling about the recurrence of 1964 Gabon coup d'etat on the FAC list. The fact that a computer translator is used to complete translating French sources where the nominator's own language skills are deficient are very worrying. I opposed Paul Gondjout from the same editor for the same reason. Less than a week later, the same editor nominates another French language-Wiki FA using Google translator again.

My main issue is that it is not defensible, not only by most editors but by its nominator and chief contributor. Articles with the majority of sources in another language, such as Same-sex marriage in Spain, and the various articles about foreign subjects have been nominated by editors with fluency in the languages used. This is not the case with this one. How can an editor defend his article when he is unable to understand the majority of its sources without computer-generated assistance? Is the FA system not only relying on the editor's judgment about what to use from these sources, but also the reliability of Google translator? Doesn't Wikipedia have enough trouble justifying the quality of the majority of its articles?

Is this merely my personal standards bordering on elitism, or a sincere problem with the reliability of sources? Is there a practical outcome to this discussion? Should we require nominators to be fluent in the language they use for their sources? Does it have implications like forbidding second language English editors from writing FAs in English? --Moni3 (talk) 00:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. Just looking at the one translation issue that has already come up at the FAC... if this is the standard of translation, it's appalling. Starting with the first phrase, in which the translator can't recognize a reflexive verb and confuses democracy with democrat. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translators should never be relied on. They can be used to assist but relying on them simply can't work. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 00:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read the first line. It received professional help, and yet (tiny) mistakes are still made. If we require nominators to be fluent in languages that they translate to, that would severely downplay articles in countries that speak a language other than English. Take for example my to previpous FAs. One was a stub before I came around to it, and the other didn't exist. They relied partially on translated sources, though not as much as the current article. Nonetheless, even though FAs are featured doesn't mean they are perfect. The can never be, and someone can always fix a bit more. This is the underlying issue here.

(ec, reply to HDYTTO) I didn't rely on the translators, I used them to assist me, as well as Fluent French speakers. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would certainly require a translator to be fluent in both the target and source languages. Honestly, you seem to have problems with both. The FAC discussion to date is sufficient to show this. These are not "tiny" mistakes. They are significant errors in articles that are aiming to be examples of Wikipedia's very best work. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was not my intention to make this about a single editor, but predicting that EotW has done this more than once, there is nothing preventing it being done again, from other editors in other languages. I am deeply uncomfortable with this becoming a trend. --Moni3 (talk) 01:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would very much agree that fluency in both languages is required. I think a point is being missed by the editor defending machine translations. There is no desire to increase articles on countries that speak a language other than English at the expense of accuracy. A machine translation is not a reliable source. It is hard to know the implications of a "tiny mistake" in a language you cannot read. It is difficult enough to write accurately in a primary language. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely right. I'm sorry to say that this new trend just seems to me to be another way for the kiddies to notch up an FA or two for free. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eotw, I think you're missing the point. Of course you're correct: there is no "perfect" article. However, to be our best work it must be verifiable. If we can't verify the article, then the article may be incorrect. If it were incorrect, then we are advertising to the world that we have vetted an article as "our best work" without thoroughly checking the sources. I am further concerned with the nominations--the article just failed MILHIST's A-class, why nominate now? Why not go through MILHIST again? I am worried; you've also been sending articles that are directly cut & paste from the Library of Congress (pd) through DYK...why the rush? Lazulilasher (talk) 01:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Children have no sense of what this project is about. They see DYK/FAC/GAN as an opportunity to collect brownie points, a step towards becoming an administrator on a project they have no understanding of. The children are slowly but surely destroying the project. One day soon there may be only the children left. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's been disillusioning me. Just recently the cut & paste thing seems to be everywhere I look, now it's the google translate thing. Maybe I was naive before, but it seems everywhere now. We're not wikisource. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, yesterday, I saw an article that was basically NOAA weather reports with the sentences broken up and put back together again in a new order. I mean, the same phrases--but, in a different order. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above editors. We cannot translate articles OR sources with aids such as Google Translators, which are demonstrably unreliable. Just as we would not use unreliable sources, we should not use unreliable translators, which can turn reliable sources into unreliable sources by giving false information. Only those who are fluent in other languages should be bringing articles sourced to foreign-language publications to FAC. With a shortage of foreign-language speakers, we have to rely exclusively on those people to check the sources at FAC (not the case with English sources). Should we add something about this to the FA criteria? Awadewit (talk) 14:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be argued that the FA criteria already cover this. My thought is that an auto-translation automatically fails to meet the 1(a) requirement that the prose be "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard" and that an auto-translation of sources fails to meet the 1(c) requirement that "claims be verifiable against reliable sources". I take 1(c) to mean that any reader fluent in English should be able to verify the accuracy of the article. If the accuracy of translated material cannot be verified by the general reader, our mostly English-only audience, it fails the test. Finetooth (talk) 18:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it meets WP:V and WP:RS for any article. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Finetooth: While English-language citations are always preferred, foreign-language references are fine if they are from reputable sources. A Google translator does not meet this standard, as mistakes apparently occur frequently. I fail to see how that is considered reliable. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These are interesting points raised here. Two articles I'm building towards an eventual FAC both use a couple of articles from languages other than English. One of them is Spanish, which I don't speak (and for which I used an online translation tool), and three are French, with which I'm pretty damn good. However, no English mongolot can verify these easily, even though I'm certain the French ones are correct, and I checked the Spanish one at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. But to answer the original question: no, it wouldn't be a good idea, if only because it wouldn't work. While it may seem like a good idea to write something into the instructions that articles or sources translated from another language should be predominately included by someone fluent in that language, less scrupulous editors would soon cotton on and might just lie about their levels of multilingualism, relying their continued access to (some pretty decent) translation tools and a good dictionary to see them through any challenge. Our best bet in cases where we suspect this has happened is simply to get a second opinion from an uninvolved speaker of the language to check that the text matches the citation, in the same way we would get someone with access to university tools or whatnot to check an offline journal citation. Steve ^{T • C} 20:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would expect a nominator or an involved editor to be competent in the target language at the very least. From a personal stand point if a user has to use Google translator then they are NOT competent in the language. As an English/Spanish speaker my abilities somewhat transfer to Portuguese and Italian as I have also studied these languages at a rudimentary level. However, my advice is that if you have never studied the language then you should either find an editor who understands the source or leave the reference alone. Google translator is entirely unreliable and I can confirm that (naturally) mistakes are frequently made in every sentence. Translation tools do not provide fluency nor complete understanding — machos, ¡espero que me entiendas! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 02:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I agree, which is why for the Spanish example I gave I got a second opinion, but my point is that demanding fluency would be unenforceable, so we might as well not bother. In one recent example, we were fortunate that the editor's paraphrasing skills were lacking enough that it was easily spotted. In other cases, we'll just have to soldier on as we always have until someone thinks of something better. Steve ^{T • C} 07:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a wide gap between relying on Google translator and fluent in two languages. Few expert translators are fluent in two languages, and many translate only from other languages into their native language. Don't raise the bar any higher than necessary. Re how to evaluate these translated articles, how about asking for input from Wikipedians who use the relevant babel tags? --Una Smith (talk) 05:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a question of degree. I can't speak Spanish fluently, but have used (for example I think in Las Meninas), the Prado full catalogue, which has shortish very concise & fact-packed entries full of useful dates & details, & I think there is no problem with that. Using a Spanish prose article would probably be unwise for me though, except again for straightforward dates or facts. Johnbod (talk) 16:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One citation template to rule them all

One citation template to find them,
One citation template to bring them all,
And in the darkness bind them [evil inconstancies].

Yeah so there's a discussion about a new template I wrote going on at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style and apparently you folks would have some interest in that. The scope is to merge most of the commonly used templates into one to procude uniform reference formatting. Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 04:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAC size

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roman Catholic Church is at 434 KB at 3 weeks, the largest FAC I'm aware of recently. (For comparison, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Samuel Johnson hit 256KB after 7 weeks.) Reviewers have been angered by past restarts, because they have to retype their Opposes, but this page will become unviewable on dialup soon. I installed page breaks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RCC's FAC already crashed my laptop... –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 01:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great googly moogly... I can undestand time and time again getting annoyed at restating supports and such, but at some point it's kinda ridiculous... even with breaks it's near unreadable. This is why I stick with my pop culture and video games... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 01:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, working up big Featured Articles I definitely need a break between, it is exhausting. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on dialup, and it's still viewable for me, but I think it needs a restart anyway. On my monitor, the discussion on Roman Catholic Church is nearly as long as the discussions on all other FACs combined. When one review becomes this long, it always seems to become a drain on the process as a whole. The editors that come flock to the long review, and the other articles on the page don't seem to be as active as they usually would be. Luckily, the other articles have gotten some decent activity this time, but the size of the page will turn off reviewers if it gets much larger. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering about it yesterday too. I think it be best if the comments be moved to the article talk page for the nominator to work on the opposes. With the comments approaching half a megabyte, I do not see a possibility of promotion. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:49, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My biggest fear about a restart in this case is that it will only cause the FAC to drag on and on, and, like the others mentioned, cause a drag on the other nominees. Three weeks is long enough, in my opinion, for the FAC to be open. Many of the current opposes at the RCC FAC have been debated in previous FACs for the article with no consensus reached. Because of that, I don't think a restart would be helpful. In my opinion, when they get this long (especially when the nominators are regularly posting 2k responses to everything), we just need to make a yes-or-no decision and close them. If consensus can't be measured, archive and let the nominators try again later. Karanacs (talk) 15:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I didn't know all this was going on about RCC. I just did my job of creating a page and putting it up for FAC. I hope I am not going to be penalized because it happens to attract a lot of attention. I have worked very hard to answer objectors comments which has resulted in a lot of new information being added that they wanted to see. Several of them have not struck opposing comments even though they have been answered at length. Several opposing comments were unactionable and required me to actually post what the top scholars were saying about a subject because the objectors just could not believe it was true. I disagree with Karanacs evaluation of "Many of the current opposes at the RCC FAC have been debated in previous FACs for the article with no consensus reached." which is not true. No opposer comment in this FAC has been debated in previous FAC with no consensus reached. That kind of comment needs a diff. please. I have placed a note on Sandy's talk page to let her know that I do not have a problem with a restart. Especially since so many opposer comments have been addressed and remain unstruck.NancyHeise ^talk 14:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't agree with your last point, Nancy. Many of the issues raised have come up time and again, sometimes with different examples cited, but the same issue. Whether no concensus has been reached on them is a matter of judgement - certainly no unanimous agreement has been reached, and many opposers have not been satisfied. Even on the matter of the phrasing re the name there are strongly held and mutually-exclusive positions, as we know. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nancy, I assure you that what's happening is not exclusive to RCC. Samuel Johnson clogged up FAC in a similar fashion last month, and I see a similar pattern forming with the Romeo and Juliet FAC. This always happens with general-interest candidates, and it's a shame because these are the articles that would represent Wikipedia's best work in a perfect world. But people will always have differing views on important topics, especially those with a large scope like RCC. This is why I believe that FAC is tilted in favor of narrow topics. As a way to reduce the page loading time for us who are on dial-up, perhaps you and the others at the RCC review could shorten your comments. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to keep things straight wrt Samuel Johnson, the FAC reached 256KB after seven weeks (RCC is over 600KB at three weeks, but I've been constantly moving text to talk to keep the long replies from jamming FAC), I don't believe Johnson ever had more than three opposes at any one time (it had six or seven at various times, but they were all eventually struck except one, with editors consistently moving in the direction of satisfying opposes via talk page discussion without jamming up the FAC), and one reason it was carried so long on FAC is because I was a co-nom and couldn't close it. Different situation: it closed with 32 Supports and 1 Oppose. Perhaps a thought that might help resolve some of the issues ... there seems to be ongoing confusion about the role of "voting" (both at FAC, and in the lengthy discussions at Talk:Roman Catholic Church attempting to resolve the naming and other conflicts). Arguments like "8 editors wanted x and only 3 wanted y" will not resolve issues so that the article could go on the main page without other editors raising the same issues that have surfaced in the previous RCC FACs, which usually come down to how the article deals with RCC history. At this point, I'm inclined towards the idea expressed by Karanacs that a restart won't help: there doesn't yet seem to be an understanding of how to work towards broad consensus. Some editors have refused to return to review this article because previous restarts caused them to do the same review many times. As Raul said last time (emphasis mine): "What I'd like to see from all the remaining objectors is a list of specific problems with the article in its current form. I'd like the nominators to take some time and address the remaining issues prior to renominating this. I do want to see this featured, but it's not there yet. Raul654 (talk) 16:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)" Taking a vote and declaring that most of the editors frequenting the talk page have decided not to make changes is not necessarily the same as addressing issues and reaching the broad consensus necessary for featured status. The goal is a featured article that would not be clobbered and immediately sent back to WP:FAR if it were to appear on the main page. I'd also like to see this article featured, and it is frustratingly close, but consensus will not be reached unless reviewer concerns are engaged rather than argued. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to restate Raul's words at the end of the last FAC, that Sandy just quoted, with some different words emphasised. "What I'd like to see from all the remaining objectors is a list of specific problems with the article in its current form. I'd like the nominators to take some time and address the remaining issues prior to renominating this." In other words this is the point we have been making time and time again. Unless people come up with specific points, and not vague, "this is POV" style opposes, nothing can be done to address real or imagined issues. In fact very few of trhe FAC opposers came back with specific points when asked to do so immediately after this, so it is unfair to criticise article editors for not dealing with opposes, which were never specified as Raul asked. In fact it could be said that certain people only seem interested in the article when it appears at FAC. And now the vague but persistent oppose is raising its head again. What happens when some opposers are not interested in a broad consensus on anything but their own viewpoint, and refuse to be pinned down to specifics? I would call this a blocking oppose. If the text of any other encyclopedia were put up for some people here, it would receive just as many accusations of POV, since no article is the diatribe of negativity about the Catholic Church that some people want. The fact is that such opposes need to be dealt with rigorously so ensure that they are not themselves simply "I don't like it" statements, which many seem to be. Xandar 22:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A great number of things have been changed since the last FAC and during this one, but, as the problems over 3-4 words over the name show, there are some issues where people just won't agree. The inability to include everything, or much detail on anything, is also a severe problem, though it would be difficult to get everything people want covered into a book, never mind a WP article. Johnson is hardly an apt comparison, as the differences there were miniscule in comparison, and mostly about the article's form, not statements in the content. There are also still many who think a neutral RCC article would be Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. Johnbod (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I also wanted to point out that the comparison to Johnson isn't apt for a number of reasons. What can be noted is that, on Johnson, Ottava consistently worked towards addressing and resolving reviewer opposes, even when that altered his vision for the article. The two-week long distress over the article name can stall the RCC FAC, illustrates that there is still disagreement even among the regular editors of the article, but I suspect that will eventually work itself out so it doesn't concern me yet; perhaps discussion could re-focus on the longer standing issues that continue to come up with respect to the History. Until that happens, I don't see that a restart will lead anywhere different than where things currently stand. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:04, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I meant my comments to be about the general effect of long FACs; this one is obviously longer and more contentious, and a yes-or-no decision will have to be made at some point. One thing I wanted to mention above is that as I type this, there are 28 candidates, the fewest I've ever seen here. So much for FAC being overloaded in terms of total candidates. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True; smallest number in a very long time, but no discernible difference in the number of reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sandy, would it be a good idea to archive the supports and resolved opposes, with a summarised note left on the FAC page? The size truly is a major disincentive to edit the page. --Dweller (talk) 14:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe. There's a record of each oppose on the talk page, and I've encouraged each reviewer to strike and respond there. We archived one in the past (as an experiment rather than the usual restart method), and as I knew would happen, we now see claims that this is the fifth FAC, when in fact, it's the fourth. I'm not sure what we can do about the size other than what Giants2008 has already done with a polite request that nominators shorten their responses or that issues unrelated to WIAFA move to the article talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With the Roman Catholic Church FAC at 500KB and the Major depressive disorder FAC at almost 200KB, the total page has hit 1MB, and I'm having a hard time loading the page. Anyone else? It might help if people would put lengthy commentary on talk pages. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:48, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you generally didn't want discussion on talk pages. Could you explain what commentary should be shunted sideways to talk? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review or resolution of concerns needed

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Augie March too. Giggy (talk) 04:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's only been up three days; if we're going to list all of the FACs have no image review, well, it would be most of the page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good morning, all. I can do these in a few hours, but I have to go teach Adventures of Huckleberry Finn first. :) Awadewit (talk) 10:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am doing them now. Awadewit (talk) 13:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all who pitched in ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Page number citations

I have started getting some e-books from Mobipocket, which offer advantages including fully searchable text, ability to add notes and bookmarks, and can easily take with when traveling or living overseas. (I also have some material from Audible.com) The one downside to these formats is they don't have page numbers in the same sense as printed books. So, if I cite them on Wikipedia, I can't always put page numbers in the references. An example is the book cite I just added to the American Airlines Flight 77 article [1]. The book is not available on Google Books so I can't find page numbers that way. I can provide chapter numbers, and want to know if that would be sufficient? or how you suggest referencing books in these formats, in a way that is okay for FAC? --Aude (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had a similar issue, in that reviewers wanted page numbers for a plot section but I had only listened to the audiobook... I trust the nominator, but I would agree that chapters at least are necessary. We can't just throw the book (pun intended) at people wanting to check our facts. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 00:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The goal of a page number is to let a reader find the cite easily. If a chapter is the most precise identifier available for an e-book, that doesn't disqualify the source, so I think it's OK. For reader convenience the cite should be replaced with a cite to a paper copy with a page number if it's easy to do so, but that's just a nicety, not a requirement. I have a similar issue with a CD version of an encyclopedia, which allows me only to cite the article name -- that's good enough to get to within a page or two, but whenever I get back to Texas, where the dead tree version is, I replace it with a cite with a page number. Mike Christie (talk) 00:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I recently had a FAC passed (Morotai Mutiny) that used a fairly lengthy online source as a key refererence and for which I couldn't provide page or even section/chapter numbers. No-one complained but if there were issues, my plan was to provide a direct quote in the citation (if I wasn't doing so already in the body of the article) so people had something to search for to verify if they wished. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For an audio book, wouldn't the appropriate reference be the minute? :) Awadewit (talk) 14:12, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, minutes are not required for videotape and DVD citations. Is this an anticipated change? --Moni3 (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not, but I've urged it from time to time. It's just common sense. The point of a reference is to enable a reader to find the supporting material. There are established traditions in scholarly work for books and journals. There really aren't for newer media. But an editor should always provide the best and most helpful citation possible.

In a case where there's really any serious question as to whether the source really supports the statement, then, sure, an editor should be required to provide whatever is needed to enable verification. This was important in one matter I was actually involved in, where an editor asserted that his source for something that would have been very interesting if true was microfilm of a college newspaper, and could only provide a range of several years within which he was sure the material had appeared.

Note that for eBooks and online sources, a text search is usually available, so a short unique search phrase is another possibility.

There shouldn't be any point to or need for precise rules, just use good faith in providing citations. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It does make sense and I would do it because it is the "best and most helpful citation possible", as Dpbsmith points out. Awadewit (talk) 19:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When I can get to a bookstore or library that has the book, I can look up the page numbers and add them. For now, it sounds like the chapter number will be okay. In the particular book I'm citing, the chapters are not long. --Aude (talk) 20:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Odd, I had a similar problem very recently. Jappalang helpfully recommended me two books on Luan Da to expand it and take it back to FAC; however, he accessed them by translating them from websites, so I can't include pages. He suggested to simply link to the websites in the citations, but noted that the website on which the snippet from the second book is included isn't reliable. The two websites are [2] and [3]. Does anyone know for certain whether linking the first website as a source would be acceptable? (Jappalang and I are fairly sure that the second isn't acceptable, but I'm not entirely sure on that one either.) Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Elcobbola retires

Elcobbola's sudden retirement is a huge blow to the FAC process. Nobody was more meticulous, patient and fair in their judgements about images. He was always the person I, and many other, turned to when an image problem arose, and he will be greatly missed. Thank you, one more time. Brianboulton (talk) 00:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As most FAC participants know, Elcobbola was the kind of editor Wikipedia should bend over backwards to retain. And absolutely a gentleman; my first encounter with him was on a difficult FAC where he showed his character as the gracious, kind and civil person that he is. Unfailingly polite, thorough, knowledgeable, responsive, dedicated, and meticulous. In his honor, I will try to remember the importance of kindness and civility, particularly towards reviewers and more specifically towards image reviewers, who really do a thankless job and get beaten up a lot. I feel priviledged to have been able to work with Elcobbola, and thankful that he left us a legacy of his knowledge: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-08-11/Dispatches and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-09-22/Dispatches. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm stunned and saddened that he's no longer working here. I don't know how we're going to be able to pick up after him. Just...give ourselves a crash course in images, I guess... --Moni3 (talk) 01:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no! Elcobbola was the kind of mentor every editor longs for: patient, detailed in his explanations, witty, generous, and well-informed. He will be sorely missed. Awadewit (talk) 13:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason for this? It all seems so sudden and mysterious. --Dweller (talk) 14:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who has watchlisted Elcobbola's talk page for almost a year, it is neither sudden nor mysterious. The concerns were evident for a long time, and he became less and less willing to visit certain FACs. I have periodically put out hints that we lose reviewers because it's thankless work, but if I see rudeness on FACs and if I take a stand, it usually results in my neutrality being questioned. This is an issue that should be addressed by all. Civility and kindness towards volunteers who donate their time to review articles at FAC is an issue that should be addressed by the community here: without reviewers, we don't have high quality FAs. It will be a long time before we see another Elcobbola. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to come in and have a word with uncivil contributors (noms or reviewers). Please page me. As for Elcobbola - a great shame. Perhaps in a few months his enthusiasm might be reinspired by an appropriately worded email. --Dweller (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the same at GAN. For every ten nominations you do, maybe more, all but one are happy and it's a pleasure to review them. Then one crops up, who is blunt, uncivil and totally unrecognising of the work you do, and it makes you question why you really bother. It's a huge shame to lose Elcobbola particularly for this reason. Peanut4 (talk) 19:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's also a general issue with resentment against the tight requirements of the WP:NFCC. See, for example, the recent argument on the use of 38 non-frees for an article in how heated this can get against those that are trying to uphold the Foundation's requirements. (Mind you, you do get a few NFCC-supporters with attitudes that lend to such problems, such as BetaCommand). --MASEM 19:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Brilliant prose" and controversial articles

As we are all aware, controversial articles have a much different history than non-controversial articles. In particular, the structure of the article and the writing is often a hard-won compromise (e.g. Roman Catholic Church and Millennium '73), however these compromises are not always in the best interest of the reader. Let me give an example. At Millennium '73, many of the topic sentences have been removed from the article under the auspices that they were uncited. For example, the fifth paragraph in the "Media coverage" section used to begin "Relations between journalists and the DLM were strained" (a statement amply backed up by the examples), but this was removed because the sentence had no footnote. My question is this: Is the "brilliant prose" bar the same for these controversial articles as other articles? If the bar remains the same, very few, if any, controversial articles, will ever pass FAC (we all know how rigorous Tony1 is!). However, lowering the bar in this one instance hardly seems equitable. Thoughts on this issue? Awadewit (talk) 17:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen this particular problem, the removal of topic sentences on the grounds that they were uncited on a hot-button controversial article. In that case, after being consistently reverted, I just left the article as it was. But it seems fairly obvious that a topic sentence is much like an article's lead: it doesn't need to be cited, because it merely introduces and summarizes what is about to follow. There should be no good reason for removing such sentences (and in fact, editors should be actively encouraged to use them), frankly for readability's sake as much as for any other reason.

Indeed, too many editors seem to think that the "brilliant prose" criterion is some kind of impossible barrier imposed by people who are more concerned for style than substance. But the point about improving an article's prose is that the article also becomes clearer and more readable as a result.

So my problem with an article such as RCC (well, one of my problems) is that it is a chore to read. This is both because it dispenses with the stylistic strategies by which good writing guides a reader; but also because it zig-zags from point to point, governed by the footnotes rather than any attempt to make the prose flow.

This is a perennial problem with Wikipedia, of course: that the tendency is towards cookie-cutter articles in which the part takes precedence over the whole. But at FAC it is worth trying to resist this tendency, and to offer examples of how to do things otherwise. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jbmurray, is there an example you can put forward? Mine seem to have backfired :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. I do think that there are plenty of examples of articles that are both meticulously well-referenced and also well-written. Many of the articles that Awadewit brings to FAC, for instance. I'm also a great admirer of Qp10qp's combination of scholariless and attention to language. Sadly, he hasn't been around much recently.

However, I felt that one of his recent FAC nominations went decidedly downhill in terms of the prose while under the scrutiny of FAC. I see that happening too often, and perhaps this is the real issue here? (Not to mention my own somewhat unhappy experience.) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAC didn't get to opine over Peter Wall because the nominator withdrew in the heat of the battle :-) I was hoping for an example of a controversial article that does not have compromised prose: not sure Learned Hand is all that controversial. And prose deterioration at FAC, because too many cooks put their hands in the broth, (I suspect) is different than what Awadewit is raising. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking about articles that, because of their topics, are inherently controversial. Intelligent design would be a good example. I find the prose in that article to be far from "brilliant" as well. I just looked at Islam - on a brief skimming, the prose is hardly "brilliant". It is more like "adequate", IMO. However, without studying the article history, I don't know why this is. Awadewit (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can give many examples of prose being gutted of topic sentences in the name of "verifiability". One blatant case involved a sentence in a BLP saying X had been indicted for A, B, and C, followed by three sections about A, B and C. I'm glad Raul features articles like Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me) occasionally as it helps counter the bias for citationism. Not long ago, an article passed FAC where almost every sentence was lifted from some source and slightly rephrased. The sentences were weaved together fairly well, but the approach treats articles to a collection of facts with some structure. This seems to be where wikiculture is heading, though. Gimmetrow 23:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My thoughts are that the same standards ought to apply regardless of the controversial nature of the article's subject, but it's clear that they don't. I share your concern that certain high-profile articles get mauled at FAC, and I am coming to the conclusion that in the not too distant future it may well be impossible for any controversial article to become featured. The increasingly common fetish for insisting on one citation per sentence is not helping to produce "brilliant prose" either. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we have to admit that, for some articles, it is impossible to be seen as neutral in the eyes of a significant majority. Wrad (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two examples that did it (there are many more): Islam and Evolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This just shows the hypocrisy of the system. Just look at the Islam article - aprticularly the History section. Is there ANY mention of the massacres of Mohammed perpetrated on Jews and fellow Arabs, and MENTION of the destruction of neighbouring civilisations, piracy slavery? NOT A WORD! One section is even titled

I think those articles are great, but I still think that both of those lack a significant majority who see them as neutral. We just choose to ignore those that disagree. Wrad (talk) 18:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Wrad. Islam got through in early 2007, and its recent FAR was not well attended. It would not get through FAC today in my view. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to focus on the "brilliant prose" part of the criteria. (Evolution dispensed with the bulk of its controversial editors before coming to FAC. Through various tactics adopted by the editors on that article, there weren't "factions" fighting it out at the last FAC. There was only one dominant faction left at the article when it was nominated for FAC. The last FAC for the article, for example, looks nothing like the RCC.) Awadewit (talk) 18:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Firmly disagree: Tim Vickers didn't "dispense" with editors via any "tactics". He worked with editors on all sides. Perhaps you're thinking of a different article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to discuss individual people's actions here. Have you read all of the archives for that article? I have. It is pretty clear that creationist editors were encouraged to edit articles on creationism and go to other wikis, for example. This is just one of the tactics that was used. I'm not saying I don't agree with this. However, it was a clear tactic that made it easier to write the article from a scientific rather than creationist perspective. Also, the editors at the page created an FAQ so that they wouldn't have to repeatedly answer the same questions from creationist editors. Again, I don't have a problem with this pragmatically speaking, but to someone from the outside, just editing wiki for the first time, it is off-putting (they are unwilling to engage with me? why?). This specific FAQ was even used in a scholarly talk I heard to demonstrate how Wikipedians "police" discourse and shut down debate. However, rather than debating the debate over the Evolution article, perhaps we should get back to my original question about "brilliant prose". Awadewit (talk) 19:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But your statement above did personalize that FAC with what could be seen as a rather strong opinion about the involved editors. Also, I'm not sure how we can dispense with the core policy of neutrality at FAC. Are you saying Evolution isn't neutral, or didn't reflect brilliant prose, and shouldn't have passed FAC? Or are you saying RCC is neutral and prose is being compromised? A bit confused about how you want to separate neutral writing and brilliant prose, so I offered two examples. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But I did call out people by name - I try not to do that when they are not in the conversation. Anyway, like I said, I'm not here to debate the history of Evolution article, which is long and messy. 1) I didn't say we should dispense with neutrality; 2) I have said nothing regarding Evolution's status (you brought that up); 3) I brought up the example of Millennium '73, whose prose is being compromised (I gave an example); 4) I haven't commented at the latest RCC FAC, but I have noticed that other editors have brought up the issue of prose independent from that of neutrality and POV. Awadewit (talk) 19:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough: but since Tim Vickers was the nominator, the effect can be the same as calling someone out by name. 'Nuff on that, I didn't intend a digression. To jumble things a bit more, what you mention at the Milennium article seems to be related to the issue of citations in the lead, and that may be another front that needs to be addressed independently of FAC. (I was once the subject of a strident personal attack for merely mentioning off-FAC, without taking a stand, that it's OK to cite hard data and statements that surprise the reader in an article lead, but that is separate from topic and summarizing sentences, and that distinction may need to be better sorted in the Lead guideline. There seems to be some confusion or disagreement over citations in the lead, still, after all these years.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are many issues currently at play at the Millennium FAC, but the one I specifically mentioned has nothing to do with the lead. It is entirely internal to the article. (I agree, though, that we really don't have a firm grasp on what needs to be cited in the lead.) Awadewit (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can "brilliant prose" be separate from POV? Absolutely. Clearly sometimes they are tied together, but they are not necessarily tied together. Awadewit (talk) 19:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The more 'technical' an article is, the less POV. The more 'social' or 'emotional' an article is. the more the chances of POV creep. I do not think they should be tied together. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the two (neutrality and brilliant prose) are related. I think that we are so thirsty for NPOV that we abandon brilliant prose. I also think that our idea of NPOV is an illusion, since in our most controversial articles we always are forced to ignore very significant points of view in order to get the past FAC. If we recognize that it is an illusion, maybe we cna fix the imbalance between neutrality and prose that currently exists. Wrad (talk) 18:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think everyone recognizes that philosophically-speaking, NPOV is an illusion. However, I'm not sure what you means when you say that our most controversial articles are "forced" to ignore very significant views to pass FAC. Could he explain a bit more? Awadewit (talk) 19:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Islam on the "picture of Muhammad" issue. Millions of people consider it incredibly offensive to have pictures of Muhammad on the page. Millions of others think it would be lacking without them. Something had to give. Wrad (talk) 20:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I very much doubt whether "brilliant prose" can ever be produced by committee. Can anyone point to an example of an FA which would be generally accepted as being written brilliantly that would get past FAC today? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I wish there was less use by reviewers of "brilliant prose" as a stated requirement for FAC because first, the criteria wording does not unambiguously state it as an absolute requirement and second, by my reading of the FA list (and I've read a great many of them on at least a cursory level), few if any featured articles reach the level of brilliant prose throughout their entire content.

Brilliance is an admirable ideal, but, unfortunately, brilliant prose is often brittle; it is so carefully crafted as to make even a minor change by a subsequent editor break it down to "merely" well-written or engaging. I've seen a number of articles where sections or paragraphs reach the level of brilliant, in my opinion, but an article written entirely in "brilliant prose"? I can't think of one. True brilliance is exceedingly rare.

The bar on controversial articles, as with all featured articles, should be set at the more reasonable "well-written", "engaging" and "of a professional standard" level, as required by the current featured article criteria. Those requirements are still a high and clearly difficult standard to meet. -- Michael Devore (talk) 19:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your sentiment, but I think the problem would still exist for controversial articles, however, because it is difficult to write well when editors are arguing over every sentence. There is just no coherence to the article's "voice". :) Awadewit (talk) 19:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like your original question is actually asking whether we should be pandering to the desire for citations for the bleeding obvious (not a criterion) at the expense of the other criteria. That's a "no" (Did somebody hear something? Probably the wind). Yomangani ^talk 19:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me, snorting and biting my tongue probably. Giano (talk)

Quite. Like the demand in the Polydactyl article to provide a citation that most human beings have five fingers and five toes. That kind of stupidity is what prevents even good prose, never mind brilliant prose. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Michael Devore's analysis is spot on. Impossible to achieve "brilliant prose" with so many cooks spoiling the broth at FAC. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another factor contributing to the poor overall quality of controversial articles is that the energy of the main contributors is focused almost entirely on endless fights over a few small sections of the text (particularly the lead), rather than working on the article as a whole. If you can bear it, look at the talkpages on Chiropractic or Homeopathy, two articles that have been extensively edited and are densely-cited, but I'd never nominate as FAC. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All too true. Wrad (talk) 20:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually read all of the archives of both of those articles. A grueling few days. Tim, at one point I think you said at Homeopathy that people who want to contribute positively to the article should edit the body of the article rather than the lead because many fewer editors notice or care about changes to the main body of the article. A huge proportion of the edit warring and debate takes place over the lead. :) (I think I may have included a quote from you on this point in my Wikimania talk.) Awadewit (talk) 23:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cool! One of the higher-risk strategies in dispute resolution is to submit the article as a GAC, which brings in an outside reviewer and forces people to work on all of the article, rather than just the "hot-button issues". This is a bit risky because if the disagreements are very strong, the article can simply be rejected for instability. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have one example. 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra failed on FAC. Some of reasons were reviewers failed to understand the hate crimes done and article seemed POVish to them. Article otherwise was well referenced and has good prose. --GPPande talk! 21:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is a problem with reviewers in general. I find that often they do not read the entire article. However, I always appreciate it when reviewers admit they had not read the entire article, which many do. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To quote a section from the posts above:

::I think that we have to admit that, for some articles, it is impossible to be seen as neutral in the eyes of a significant majority. Wrad (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Two examples that did it (there are many more): Islam and Evolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This just shows the hypocrisy of the system being run here. Just look at the Islam article - particularly the History section. Is there ANY mention of the massacres of Mohammed perpetrated on Jews and fellow Arabs? Any MENTION of the destruction of neighbouring civilisations, piracy slavery? NOT A WORD! Oppression of women? Not mentioned. Mention of massacres in Spain, Byzantium, Armenia, Greece? No sign. The Crusades were "launched" by Christians. No mention of the Muslim attacks on Byzantium, Georgia and Armenia that provoked the response. One section is even titled with the amazingly "POV" heading Golden Age! Imagine if we had put that title up on a section of the Catholicism article! How the same people who supported Islam would have howled and wailed - and been supported by the same SandyGeorgia who now tells us how wonderful and NPOV Islam is! Yet "Islam" flies through, and Sandy and her followers at FAC strain at gnats over the Catholicism article, wanting us to list every negative action ever commited by a Catholic and cut out anything that might hint Catholics ever did anything good. A simplThat one e comparison shows the hypocrisy of what goes on here under the present regime. Xandar 23:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brilliant prose and the French

Partly for a bit of levity and partly because I mused over it recently, here's a (possibly very bad) translation of the 1a criterion from the French Wiki, which might provide some insight into our use of "brilliant":

Bien écrit signifie que le niveau de langue est correct, voire recherché, et exempt de faute de style; que l'orthographe, la grammaire et la typographie sont irréprochables et homogènes.

Well written means the level of language is correct, even sought after, and free from errors of style; the orthography, grammar, and typography are impeccable and consistent.

We don't actually mention orthography, grammar, and typography at WIAFA. But what I thought more interesting is that, while they obviously mimiced .en in general, they didn't carry "brilliant" across (I believe it could be "voire brillant" or "voire magnifique").

What would "sought after" mean if we unpacked it at WIAFA? Maybe distilling the following: "for the discipline in question, this is the professional language I am looking for." Our medical articles don't need "brilliant" prose; they need clinical prose. Ditto evolution related topics. "Brilliant" perhaps works for literature and theatre but not philosophy, which often needs to be laboriously precise. As for the religion debates on-going, I might agree that Islam is not brilliant prose but I firmly disagree it could not get through FAC on 1a: its prose is didactic, in the positive sense of the term. See what the Denver Post had to say about it, Global warming, and Evolution. The FA process is clearly capable of managing prose, but perhaps it is time to drop "brilliant" in favour of something else that better reflects best practice. Marskell (talk) 07:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the "brilliant" prose part seems like a literary standard that does not apply to many topics that are not, as you say "works for literature and theatre". I see many complaints of dull prose for articles that have be made "laboriously precise", although the articles may be extremely well organized and clearly written, "didactic in a positive sense", on a difficult topic. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review needed

~~Third Battle of Kharkov~~
~~2000 Sugar Bowl~~

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Farce of RCCs Fifth FAC

I think it's quite clear that after this fifth round of the farce that is FAC, that the FAC system is broken, and that no Catholic article that isn't a "blistering expose of Catholic evil" is going to make it past the clique of POV-pushers at FAC. The FAC process and personnel need an urgent and thoroughgoing review so that a few biased opposers are no longer allowed to continually stymie an article with vague and unspecified allegations of POV until it fits in with their viewpoint. The running of the RCC FAC by Sandy has been chronic. She has done nothing to rigorously test opposes and see that they were precise and fitted the criteria, and has consistently made laughably biased interventions on behalf of the the same clique of "reviewers". I notice the same Marskell whocame late to the FAC with POV opposes, is actually a delegate on FAR - the same FAR that voted the extremely unbalanced Islam article (see my post above) a free ride back to FA status! Unbelievable! The bronze star means very little in real terms now by the standard of much of the junk that gets passed on the nod, while articles of effort and substance on major topics are treated in this manner. All that this ludicrous joke of a process will produce is a total lack of articles on major topics coming up for featured status. Xandar 23:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really can't stand high-profile FAs. They are unbelievably ridiculous. Wrad (talk) 00:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just accept that FAC is controlled by a small group of people who toe the bit, so they can get their articles through when the time comes, and who like to "discuss" things a lot but not change anything. You have to become one of the FAC group if you want to pass a controversial article. No big deal. It is not "fair". The Roman Catholic Church FAC is one in a long line of ridiculous FACs. Look at FAC as a reality show that (thankfully) doesn't reflect reality or even (thankfully) Wikipedia. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAC promotes petty bickering ahead of adding real content to wikipedia. FAC highlights the accomplishments of editors who are good at the bickering process, not necessarily at the writing and researching process, though there are exceptions. One could, hypothetically, sabotage FAC by picking every article apart detail until the nominator collapses to his or her knees in tears and agrees to worship their critic as a god or goddess.

It would be so easy. Just pick things apart to a ridiculous extent until the nominator reacts as any normal human being would: with intense anger and frustration. Then, you could hypocritically accuse them of personally attacking you! Ohohoooh! The evil genius of this is so brilliant it makes my spine tingle. Yes! You could counter your evil reviews with just enough good ones that so-called "cool-headed" editors would step in whenever somebody complained and say "but he's valuable to FAC!" Your enemies thus silenced, you could walk the world with relative impunity...hated, but voluntarily ignorant of the hatred against you. No... not ignorant, conscious of it. Conscious of it and fully savoring and relishing the sufferings of the poor, helpless recipients of your cruelty. Oh, to be such an editor of Wikipedia! To have such power!

It's already happening. Wrad (talk) 01:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Techically "promotes petty bickering ahead of adding real content to wikipedia" is wrong - you have already added the content to the wiki :p

"highlights the accomplishments of editors who are good at the bickering process" - I did next to no bickering to get a history article promoted to FAC - maybe the history section is better :p

"hypothetically, sabotage FAC by picking every article apart detail until the nominator collapses to his or her knees in tears and agrees to worship their critic as a god or goddess." Or you could write long winded posts littered with attempts at sarcasim to enternain drunken people who have not better to do this evening :)

"The evil genius " thank you :)

"Your enemies thus silenced" hope your not going to pay anyone to do that!

"you could walk the world with relative impunity" You can - i have! :)

"Conscious of it and fully savoring and relishing the sufferings of the poor, helpless recipients of your cruelty. " Satan works on the wiki? Where does he get the spare time?

"Oh, to be such an editor of Wikipedia! To have such power! " Power's overrated, its true!

Taty bye :)--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To all editors who think this rant is directed at them personally, I have one suggestion: peruse our article on the song "You're so vain" and maybe read the lyrics over once or twice. :P Wrad (talk) 02:37, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, a big part of it is in topic choice. If you are going to pick a controversial subject, pick one that is not very interesting to current historians, so that all the sources are old and reflect a POV bias. Then you can say, well, these are the sources. And no one can argue because the topic is not sufficiently interesting enough for anyone to have bothered to refute the POV. If you are a FAC groupie, that is all you need. Bam! You have your FA. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be serious now, that is a major pain with history - due to the relasing of new documents/new evidence for hsitorians to use and what era your source comes from, you could techically be typing balls on to this here encylopedia. --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it recently happened in an FAC. I know of what I speak. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:52, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you can edit wikipedia, just not the stuff that you want to. Not the controversial stuff. In other words, the controversial stuff is hopeless. Wrad (talk) 02:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This only applies if you want an FA. However, if you don't care about FA, then you can edit what you want happily. In fact, I would suggest that the Good article nominations process is a far more helpful and satisfying experience than FAC, if you want a certification for your article. —Mattisse (Talk) 02:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I dont see why a decently wrote, well sourced and neutral article would not be passed - there are plently of controverial history articles 2 of which am working on now and hope to get passed one day :)--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After those articles pass, then you can talk. Wrad (talk) 02:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roman Catholic Church/archive5 - the fifth FAC nomination for this article. (That is what began this thread to begin with, see above Farce of RCCs Fifth FAC). —Mattisse (Talk) 03:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well history is allot easier to write - a description of events and an anyalais balancing opinions etc (ive just helped out on prmoting one with some controvery attached to it) but anyhoo i am really just butting in on this because am bored.

Again - just poking my nose in- glancing over the FAC it would seem the majoirty of people supported the article and the majoirty who opposed was over niggling things like referancing, writing style etc which is understandable. So why did it fail?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 03:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know which article you are talking about, but I suspect the main editor was not a FAC groupie. If you are talking about Roman Catholic Church I would say, that there is a lack of protocol or whatever in the FAC process, and so it was just easier to fail it than to sort out the niggling picks from the valid concerns. Also, FAC tends to focus on the niggling things as the crucial issue. This is where being a FAC groupie is important. If you are a groupie, the other groupies will rush in and fix the niggling picks, overhwhelming the ones who disagree, and the FAC director will tend to be more tolerant and fix things personally as well as discourage the nonsupporters, and hold the article open longer. (Although sometimes, paralysis sets in and articles are held open endlessly, discrediting the FAC procedures.) It is not an unbiased process and it essentially has no fixed rules but is at the director's descretion. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read the RCC FAC? I have, and there's no way in which it could be considered to have failed because of "niggly little issues". There was substantial opposition due to POV-and-similar concerns (whether one agrees with them or not), including concerns from editors other than those I see regularly at WP:FAC. All this talk of "FAC groupies" is a serious red herring. As for it being "easier to fail", that ignores the creditable efforts that were made to keep this alive in the face of the opposition and almost 500KB of discussion. The FAC was kept open for more than a month, which is more than a lot of articles get, and it's not every FAC that gets such a detailed rationale for its closure. Nancy is not a name I see regularly on these pages, and yet from what I can tell, the FAC delegate bent over backwards to keep alive the possibility of the article's promotion (hardly cabal-ish behaviour). To suggest otherwise is to wilfully ignore the facts. Steve ^{T • C} 08:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All i said was that i glanced over it - only looking at the support/dont support comments in bold - i didnt have the time to sit and read the whole discussion - hence the comment. As i said am just poking my nose in because i was bored :) --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 18:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well said, Steve. Marskell (talk) 09:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of heated rhetoric here. If there's one thing I can say about Wiki processes, it's that they are perpetually "broken." Someone is always saying that AfD, RfA, FAC etc. are broken. But the processes keep on ticking: they are necessarily imperfect, not broken.

People need to take a step back here and consider the RCC nominations in sum. Repeatedly, opposers have been berated and howled at, not listened to. Relata refero, Vassyanna, Jbmurray, Awadewit, Karanacs, Tony1, Marskell, Geometry Guy etc. These editors do not constitute a secret cabal. They are not radical POV-pushers. They are not groupies. There's no grand FA conspiracy. The RCC noms are failing because the nominators and supporters are not handling them properly.

It is hard to be all things to all people, admittedly. If the RCC editors want to pass the article the first thing they should do is radically shorten it. Nancy's habit has been to add, add, add. This is not the way to go. Marskell (talk) 08:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the group complaining over the RCC article you list above (some of whom are from the previous FAC) are strongly linked and certainly know one another. You, Marskell, are part of the FA team, which passed the totally uncritical Islam article. Yet you, (in my view improperly,) intervened to oppose the already far more critical FAC article for not having enough anti-Catholic POV! I don't see how you can remain part of the supposedly neutral FA admin team after that. I also notice that the FAC page itself has been altered before archiving (again, in my view not in line with proper processes). All the comments positive of the article from supporters, all responses to opposes, and all of the comments from several editors critical of the repeated process with regard to the RCC article have been removed. The whole FAC discussion needs archiving AS IT WAS, without history being rewritten. The RCC is failing because of a DOUBLE-STANDARD applied to certain articles by an in-group at FAC. Xandar 09:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having been around for more than a few years, it really is an issue of topic choice. The RCC is a controversial topic where individuals are certain they know the "truth" of her history. In reality, the vast majority of editors are clueless and have only a superficial understanding of such topics. As a non-Catholic, but one interested in religious topics, what I have seen over the last five attempts is just the norm. There is no standard that is uniform across Wikipedia articles; it is highly subjective. My advice is to forget about the FAC process; just drop it. It is much better to produce as good an article as possible and leave it at that. Monitor it so that it does not get ruined by the passing nimrod and move forward. --^StormRider 10:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Xandar. The editors I list are strongly linked? I think a more accurate description is: random English speakers scattered across the globe. Honestly, the very nature of Wiki makes serious conspiracies of the sort you are suggesting impossible. I had not received a single word regarding this article from any of the other editors I list before I opposed. Scout's honour.

Now, there's some accuracy in your comment on Islam and perhaps through bad phrasing I haven't made myself clear. Is there less criticism in the Islam article? Arguably, yes. But there's also less apologetics at the level phrasing. This is the key point. They decided to keep it short and to avoid value judgements in any direction. I'll pull out one comment, addressed to me, from that FAC:

"Marskell, we have one small overview section on criticism of islam. Once we mention more specific points, we need to balance it out with specific answers and the section becomes bloated." --Aminz 08:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC) (The section was later merged into Modern times.)

This is the attitude they adopted and I now see the enormous wisdom of it. I'll give you specific examples, but we need to be less heated if it's going to be productive. Marskell (talk) 10:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a "Criticism" section in Islam, and the rest of the article is wholly valedictory ("Golden Age" etc), and completely ignores virtually ALL the negatives: massacres of jews and Christians, oppression of women, slavery, terrorism, suppression of science post- 1100 etc... Yet it is the infinitely more critical Catholic article that gets stopped for POV! There seems to be a clear double-standard here which needs to get sorted out. Xandar 13:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is a group of editors/reviewers of FAC that are strongly linked. As a hanger-around-FAC editor, I could list a group that are "strongly linked". Hang around FAC and you will see. Do some follow up nosing around on relevant talk pages. From a sociological perspective, it is very interesting. —Mattisse (Talk) 13:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. List them. Particularly those who are supporting articles that should not be passed. --Moni3 (talk) 21:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Moni for saying this. I have been concerned about these accusations for the past few days and have felt that my integrity as a FAC reviewer has fallen under suspicion. The subject of many of the FACs that I have commented on over the past year interests me not one iota. What interests me is the standard of research and writing. Graham Colm ^Talk 22:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest the opposite, per Sandy's complaint that there are not enough "opposes" (registered somewhere not too long ago). They rarely "oppose". Rather, these editors show up to "support" (for articles by certain editors), even when they have not scrutinized the article and have no real interest in it. To paraphrase Ling.Nut, who was also recently asked to "name names", I am not crazy enough to do that! —Mattisse (Talk) 01:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Either show us specific evidence of wrongdoing by specific editors (this pattern you claim to see) or cease complaining. I'm tired of these vague accusations. Awadewit (talk) 02:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am perfectly willing to end this thread. Just did not want to be accused of not replying. You know perfectly well that "naming names" would be suicidal. That is nuts! (as User:Ling.Nut said when he was attacked with the same demand). So stop asking. —Mattisse (Talk) 02:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A quick note

You know, I see supports from myself, Ottava, Ceoil, Malleus, Majoreditor, Kensplanet, Ling-Nut, Mitch32, Dweller; all of them semi-regulars at FAC. I see opposes from Vassyana, Soidi, Vb, Taam, Ioannes Pragensis, Savidan, Rreagan007; none of them FAC regulars. Yes, some FAC regulars opposed this time around, but glancing over the FAC page, I see a lot of supports and opposes from outside the "FAC ranks", so I'm not seeing this problem with an FAC clique, and so I'd appreciate it, as an FAC regular, if I didn't keep getting lumped into some rather heated rhetoric. Now, there may or may not be a problem with articles on high profile subjects, but surely we can discuss this calmly and rationally without personalizing it. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I've worked with Vb on Belgium FAC, and I think he also commented on the Nepal FAC back in 2005. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go further. I think some of the comments above about FAC and the regular reviewers are downright insulting, unconstructive, uncivil and also frankly untrue. Those who posted them were no doubt upset about the failure of the FAC, but that is no excuse. You should be ashamed of yourselves. FAC reviewers spend an enormous amount of time helping all kinds of articles reach Featured quality; articles they often have 0 interest in whatsoever. Reviewers don't expect bouquets and chocolates but these kind of generalising and astonishingly inaccurate characterisations are unkind and wrong. --Dweller (talk) 14:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well said, Dweller. Lets cool down. --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 15:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The mischaracterization of reviewers who voluntarily spend their time evaluating articles as some sort of cabal or clique is insulting and inaccurate, but the mischaracterization of SandyGeorgia as someone who does not take opposes seriously and who has made "laughably biased interventions on behalf" of a clique is appalling. To accuse SandyGeorgia, who does everything she can to help nominators, of this kind of behavior is absolutely ridiculous. SandyGeorgia and Raul654 have kept FAC running smoothly for several years now. Their fairness and hard work have made this is a pleasant part of Wikipedia to work on and I applaud them. Awadewit (talk) 15:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, but I am perfectly entitled to point out the Double-standard in the treatment of the Catholicism article and other articles by some reviewers and in the process. Everything I have said I am prepared to back up. Indeed some naysayers may have been from outside FAC ranks but a lot of others were, and vague unjustified claims of POV bias in the article and claims that pro-article editors have been abraisive, while the abraisiveness of anti-article reviewers has been ignored. The contrast in the treatment of this article and other articles, such as Islam is glaring, and the spirit of WP rules has not been carried out. Dweller may rail all he likes, but in-group self-justification cuts no ice. Xandar 21:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm usually as up for a fight as the next man Xandar, but in this case, while I have some sympathy for your attitude, I think it's best to turn the other cheek. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the recently closed FAC, nothing will change by railing against it. It's sometimes best to take a leaf of Machiavelli's book, The Prince. What is the course of action most likely to lead to the desired outcome, that the RCC article gets the bronze star it deserves, and that all those who've sweated over it deserve? It surely isn't to antagonise broad tranches of FAC reviewers, the very people who could help the article get over this final hurdle. Time to look forwards, not back. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, turning this into an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS-type argument is a false reflection on Sandy and/or FAC regulars. If Islam is horribly POV, it is due in part to a lack of scrutiny at FAC and later at FAR, but you can help change that at any time!. Bad FA's get that way because there aren't outside reviewers who offer up their opinions, without fear of this sort of backbiting. It often happens unintentionally, as I know occasionally happened at video game FACs; video game project editors supported without realizing there were accessibility issues, for example, that they never noticed because they were gamers. But the point is the FAC process isn't broken just because controversial articles don't just breeze on by. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 15:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been the nominator of Roman Catholic Church the four times it has been up for FAC. Each time it has failed it has resulted in article improvement. It is encouraging to me to see this improvement and see more and more supports from regular FAC reviewers. Personally, I find the process interesting and fun - sometimes I get offended when people accuse my good faith edits of being POV (which necessitated the need for substantial source quotes both in the article and on FAC page) or disparage the article in an uncivil way- not to mention the daily page vandalism which spews hatred at article editors in the process. It just shows me that there are a lot of hateful people out there who hate the Catholic Church and are full of misinformation about it. I find that part very sad and painful. Xandar has been subjected to this too and I can understand his frustration and feeling like the world is against us but I disagree that FAC is broken and I am upset that he has leveled such criticism of both FAC and FAC reviewers which I find inappropriate and unfair. FAC is doing what it is supposed to do - get the issues out and addressed - find out what people think so we can address the issues that they are wondering about - that is really interesting stuff. I never knew how misinformed the general public was on Catholic Church issues until we went through these FACs and it has really been an eye-opener. (I have learned a lot too) I am excited to be part of this Wikipedia FA process and have been participating here and there in other FA's. I find fault with past FA's such as the original FA on Pius XII [4] which never mentions the notable facts we mention in our little paragraph on WWII yet that FA is a "chore to read" and does not give Reader any context for any of Pius XII's decisions - the lead and the entire article leans very negative POVish!. I hope this is not an example of what opposers want to see on RCC. Sometimes omission of facts that give Reader context can be a very POV way of presenting material. I don't have criticism of Islam FA because when I went to that page to find out about Islam facts, I found the page very informative. I was inspired to spend time on RCC because of that page, it was encouraging to see that a religion topic could be treated fairly and respectfully. If I wanted to know about Criticism of Islam (not linked anywhere in main Islam article), I could always go to that article but it was nice to read just and informative piece on the subject without having it all muckied up with everyone's little axe that they have to grind. It is ridiculous to me to see that opposers asked us to insert material that was not sanctioned by the Church like Saint Bartholomews Day Massacre and the like. Those kinds of FAC comments are what screw up our prose. I would like for RCC to be treated in the same light as Islam was and with the same goal - make a useful and informative page. NancyHeise ^talk 16:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the Islam article and the article on criticism of Islam was linked twice, once as a dab link with the text "critique of Islam" and once in the sidebar with the link "criticism". I added a third link, under "Other religions". Tim Vickers (talk) 18:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Xandar, just so you know I am a member of the FA team. I was one of its founding members. Wrad (talk) 20:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There may be a link to a criticism of Islam article. There's a link to "Criticism of Catholicism" and other critical articles on the RCC page. The point is that there is no criticism of Islam on the Islam page itself. Yet it was recently confirmed as FA, while the Catholicism article was failed again, despite being infinitely more balanced and critical. THAT is the double standard. And Wrad, I am not saying everyone on FAC is in a conspiracy. I AM saying there seems to be a group on FAC who are unreasonably hostile to the Catholicism article. Xandar 00:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Praise from an IP

Joseph Priestley was one of those FAs that was a true wiki-effort and I just wanted to mention that today that effort really paid off. An IP editor dropped by my talk page, leaving helpful links to add to the article and this message: "Recent personal research into the Writings of Thomas Jefferson caused more than a passing personal curiousity regarding Joseph Priestley. The Priestley Wikipedia stub greatly exceeded my expectations when arriving there from a Google search. It's breadth and scholarship are of outstanding quality, and is deserving of especial éclat." - Every once in a while we need a pick me up here at FAC. It is nice to know that when people read our FAs, they recognize their quality. Go team! :) Awadewit (talk) 01:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yay! Wrad (talk) 20:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAC Etiquette

FAC etiquette considerations are being discussed on the Roman Catholic Church talk page here [5]. I am hoping that some improvements could be made to the FAC process by considering some of these ideas and I invite FAC reviewers and nominators comments on them. NancyHeise ^talk 13:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What?

What happened to User:Deckiller/FAC urgents? It hasn't been updated for over a month. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think(?) it got killed off again? I dunno, Sandy's always been against it... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sandy said she was going to stop adding to it in a thread a couple weeks ago... Y'all are going to make me find it, aren't you? Fine. Here it is.--Moni3 (talk) 21:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meh, that stinks, it was a helpful page. Is there any way for me to update it? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 322: / Line 322: @@
 :::*I would suggest the opposite, per Sandy's complaint that there are not enough "opposes" (registered somewhere not too long ago). They rarely "oppose".   Rather, these editors show up to "support" (for articles by certain editors), even when they have not scrutinized the article and have no real interest in it. To paraphrase  [[User:Ling.Nut|Ling.Nut]], who was also recently  asked to "name names", I am not crazy enough to do that!  &mdash;[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 01:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 ::::*Either show us specific evidence of wrongdoing by specific editors (this pattern you claim to see) or cease complaining. I'm tired of these vague accusations. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 02:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
+:::::*I am perfectly willing to end this thread. Just did not want to be accused of not replying. You know perfectly well that "naming names" would be suicidal. That is nuts! (as [[User:Ling.Nut]] said when he was attacked with the same demand).  So stop asking.  &mdash;[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 02:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 ===A quick note===