Talk:Dog

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Early Spaying

On another note, does anyone have any good scientific studies supporting spaying female dogs prior to the first estrus cycle to prevent the mammary gland from being stimulating by hormones and therefore also prevent breast cancer. I have heard vets and read many things over the internet, but never have seen any definitive study. Can anyone help.

I think whether "bitch" has been losing favor depends a great deal on one's experiences. As I mentioned below, the vast majority of people I know use the term freely; others obviously have different experiences.

At any rate, I actually wanted to address your question about ovariohysterectomy (spay) preventing mammary tumors. The study everyone references was done in 1969 - here is the citation:

Schneider, R, Dorn, CR, Taylor, DON. Factors Influencing Canine Mammary Cancer Development and Postsurgical Survival. J Natl Cancer Institute, Vol 43, No 6, Dec. 1969

That study showed that the fewer estrus cycles a bitch had before she was sterilized, the lower her risk of mammary tumors. There are a couple of papers which review the medical literature on sterilization and long-term health effects (both are .pdf files):

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdfplus/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665

Hope that helps! Newcastle (talk) 21:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

the article currently reads "In fact, there is evidence that spaying females prior to their first heat cycle." and then drops the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.191.62 (talk) 03:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to find consensus and apply a consistent standard

The term bitch is no more correct for a female canine (not canid) than the term female. The definition of bitch is "a female dog." Thus, Female is the superordinate term, and in the context of canines, bitch provides no further information. Under wikipedia guidelines, editors should refrain from making arbitrary edits. If there is no substantive justification for including "bitch" instead of "female", then female should not be edited. "Bitch" could be edited to "female" if there is sufficient reason for the change. I'll provide three reasons:

• The term bitch is not in wide use; it is not common language. Most dog owners do not refer to their dog as a bitch.
• The term is not used in scientific publications; female is used instead. My knowledge is limited to scientific pubs on wolves; I've never seen it there.
• The term is more commonly used as a derogatory term. From my perspective, the use of this term to mean "a female dog" is all but dead. It is used in a few pockets, including the dog show community and the breeding community, but in the common language of average people, this meaning is almost never used.
• Wikipedia would benefit from consistency, and "bitch" will struggle to find majority support

I propose creating a standard from consensus that will help resolve future edit wars about the proper usage of the term. To achieve this, I propose changing instances of bitch to female with a link to this debate; that will encourage people who are interested in the topic to come here and help form a consensus. Hopefully we can come to a consensus, and then use that standard for future edits of all dog pages.

--Thesoxlost (talk) 15:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) You are not interested in a consensus, you are an edit warrior: "To achieve this, I am going to change all the instances of bitch to female with a link to this debate."

This appears to me to be about censorship: "The term is more commonly used as a derogatory term". You do not explicitly object to "dog" for a male, and you have not stated that you will change it. I haven't checked your contributions to see whether you object to mare, gander, hen, or woman. You claim that "bitch" does not have the same usage that "female" has even among dogs, but the dog fancier literature is replete with counterexamples.

If you were here arguing for consistency in all articles about sexes of animals, I might be willing to engage. But Wikipedia is not censored, and your attempt to push censorship under a guise of consistency does not engender my cooperation. If another editor would like to seek a consensus, rather than censoring and edit-warring, I'd be happy to engage.--Curtis Clark (talk) 20:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Guys, relax. This issue isn't new. I didn't make it up. It pops up every now and then because the wikipedia community has not put it to bed. This week there was a edit war on the Doberman Pinscher site. I didn't play any role in it. Currently "bitch" is being used, and I have no interest in challenging its usage there. I do have interest in bringing that debate toto a central location where it can be resolved. The statement above about changing instances of bitch to female is to encourage debate. Edits are never final; they just force someone else to disagree, and if they do, thats one more person in the debate. If you would like to bring the debate to the multitude of wiki articles through some other means, thats fine.

Lastly, because you guys have accused me of many things, let me say that I have no vested interest. And yes, I am interested in gathering consensus. If it turns out that bitch is used more often than female here, and that the consensus is that it is the correct term to use, I would be happy with consistency dictating that the term bitch replace female on these pages. Then edit wars about this topic will end, because there will be a concrete statement of the consensus which is all-important in justifying these changes.

One of the principles of wikipedia: assume that your fellow editors are acting in good faith. Please don't engage in ad hominem. The only substantive argument above is the statement that "bitch" is common in the dog fancier literature.

--Thesoxlost (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Part of assuming good faith is reading what the editor wrote, not what you think they wrote. I interpreted your statements to mean that you would change "bitch" to "female" absent a consensus, that you were concerned by the derogatory use of the word, and that you were unconcerned by other species-specific sex terms, even including "dog". I apologize if I misconstrued, but I hope you can understand how my reading of what you wrote (perhaps in contrast to what you meant) would lead me to the conclusions I drew.

With respect to "This week there was a edit war on the Doberman Pinscher site," that seems to be a bit overblown. An anon changed "dog" and "bitch" to "male" and "female", with no edit summary. I reverted, with an edit summary. I have made many such reversions in the past. To the best of my memory, no similar change by an anon has ever had an edit summary, and my good-faith assumption has been that these anons were not aware of the proper uses of the terms and were shocked by "bitch".

My edit was reverted by ImperatorExercitus, a user whose primary contributions recently have been reversions of vandalism. I suppose that reversion of an edit by a named account, with an edit summary, to the edit of an anon, without one, could be construed as edit warring, but I'm willing to assume good faith. Pigsonthewing reverted back, with an edit summary.

IMO, because the terms "dog" and "bitch" are widely used in the dog fancier literature, and among all dog fanciers (not just breeders), it is useful to readers of Wikipedia to use the terms correctly. But I understand the value of consistency. If this were a discussion of all species-specific sex terms, rather than a referendum on "bitch", I'd feel a lot better about it (although this is probably not the right venue...I hesitate to suggest MOS). And "bitch" isn't the only one with an eyebrow-raising alternate meaning; there's also cock.

I'd also feel a lot better about this if there were more than just the two of us talking here.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

A bit late, but I agree with Curtis Clark. The word "bitch" is entirely appropriate in reference to a female dog, and should be used interchangeably in Wiki articles just as it is in real life, among fanciers, owners, exhibitors, breeders, etc. As CC also pointed out, if you're truly after consistency you'd need to change every gender-specific use of "dog" to male, and change all uses of (among numerous other things) mare, stallion, bull, cow, sow, ewe, hen, rooster, to "male" or "female", as the case may be. If you propose that, and get consensus on it, I'd agree to remove "bitch" from the Boxer article; until that point, I see no reason at all to change things.

Newcastle (talk) 21:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You're not late. As long as people throw in their opinions here over the next months or years, consensus will eventually be found.

The insistence that in order to be consistent, we would have to change all uses of dog to male really supports my point. On wikipedia, dog is not used in the technical sense that indicates gender. Dog is the common use English term used to specify members of the species canis lupus familiaris regardless of sex. Just look at the dog article. Where is the term dog being used in a gender specific fashion? I am arguing that common-use words be used except in cases where the technical usage of dog and bitch would be more appropriate (e.g., when discussing breeding or showing). Each of the terms you used above are in common usage. Can you really argue that bitch is in common use? What percentage of dog owners do you know that use the term (without implying the derogatory meaning) to refer to their own dog? Personally, I know no one who uses it. --Thesoxlost (talk) 23:19, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Another place where it is commonly used is in breed standards, and in fact there are few other reasons to distinguish the sexes in articles on specific breeds (one exception is temperament). Most of the "dog people" I know use "bitch" in a non-derogatory sense to refer to their own bitches. Admittedly the percentage is much lower among dog owners who are not "dog people", and I suspect the use of "bitch" in the classical sense is an example of a sociolect.--Curtis Clark (talk) 03:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

"Dog" certainly is used on Wikipedia to indicate gender. In the Boxer article, for example, it is used in the "Early Genealogy" section. Other articles (from your list above) with gender-indicating "dog" usage include Best of Breed, German Spitz (Klein), Curly Coated Retriever, Border Collie, American Cocker Spaniel, Polish Lowland Sheepdog, Irish Terrier (I didn't check the ones specifically about breeding/reproduction) - and in fact, the Dog article specifically points out that a male canine is referred to as a "dog".

And yes, I would argue that "bitch" in reference to a female dog is in common use - 90% of the dog owners I know use it interchangeably with "female" or "girl", as do the breeders, exhibitors, veterinarians, groomers. (Since I'm involved in numerous international dog forums, I'm speaking of worldwide use, not just in my local area.)

At any rate, until others weigh in I guess we're at two to one against. Is there a guideline as to how long these discussions remain open without input before consensus is declared? (And at that point do you go back and replace all the instances of "bitch" that you changed to "female" before this discussion occurred?)

Newcastle (talk) 15:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

In the article Dog, the title is used to refer to the species of both genders. In one sentence, in the definition section, it states that in breeding circles, the term is also used to indicate a male. But for every article title that includes the word dog (e.g., Dog, Dog breed, dog communication, dog society, Dog fancy), and a vast majority of the instances of the term on wikipedia, the term is used in the colloquial sense to refer to the subspecies. I understand that in maybe 2% of its usage, it is gender specific. In a majority of those cases, it is used in the context of breeding or dog shows. Elsewhere, where normal people--Joe and Joe Sixpack--who own dogs but dont breed them and don't show them, the term is rarely used.

If you truly believe that 90% of dog owners use bitch in commonly, in everyday speech, to refer to their own dogs, then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I have never, ever, heard someone say "This is my bitch, Daisy. Isn't she a beautiful bitch?" Never. People always say "This is my dog, Daisy," or if you say "He's a beautiful dog," i've never heard someone say, "She's a bitch." They say "It's a she," or just correct you with "She." If 90% of the people you know do say things like that, well, we have very, very different experiences.

I don't know of any wiki guidelines. Nothing is happening in the meantime. I aggravated two pro-bitch people by changing the pages. If people care, they will share their opinion. As is, if anyone changes a use of "bitch" to "female," I think you could revert it and point to this page. I think this thread is a reasonable one to use as the standard for all dog-related pages that could use the term.

--Thesoxlost (talk) 22:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think we do have very, very different experiences. :) I just can't think of any reason to not use the term on Wiki in reference to a female dog. Your reasons don't hold true for me, obviously: you say it's not in common usage, but in my experience it is; you say it's not used in scientific publications on wolves, and that may well be true, but a quick search of PubMed shows almost 1,000 published studies which use the term, from 1906 all the way up to a January, 2009 journal; you say the word is often used in a derogatory manner but so are numerous others, and again in my experience it is not commonly an insult; you mention consistency as a reason to stop using the word but then state that you have no problem with it being used in reference to breeding or showing (which is primarily how it's used in articles at this point anyway) which destroys the consistency aspect.

Sorry, I don't mean to harp on about this, I'm just trying to understand your point of view and hopefully help you understand mine.

Newcastle (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The meaning of the word "bitch" is context specific, like all words. If you are talking about a machine you can't get to work, or something else that has annoyed you, or if you are talking about a person it has the derogatory meaning. If you are talking about a dog, it doesn't. Of course the word "dog" needs to be used with because it is more difficult to differentiate the two most common meanings. In my experience (I am not a "dog person") the word "bitch" is fairly common with this meaning and I don't think it will confuse people, especially when it explained. "Female" is also common, but the most common term would be "girl" - the diminutive is not surprising when talking about well loved animals, but is not really suitable in an encyclopedia. Note that donkey uses Jack and Jenny_(donkey) quite freely despite these being rather unknown words. Thehalfone (talk) 15:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, we know a couple things from social and cognitive psychology: (1) if a word has two alternative meanings, we process both meanings simultaneously; (2) if that meaning is associated with a trait (say a negative or hostile trait), it automatically colors our perception. See http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1983-07893-001

Its just one of many, but this study shows that subconscious priming of hostility causes subjects to rate behaviors and people as more hostile. In this context, the negative traits associated with the dominant (derogatory) use of the word "bitch" will bias our perception of female dogs. Similarly, the use of the word niggardly activates more meanings than "stingy" that one would be wise to avoid.

Also, those who complained about censorship, read WP:profanity.

--Thesoxlost (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm...and "dog" has no negative connotations?

My perception is colored when I see "female" used in a summary of a breed standard for dogs: I assume it has been sanitized, and that there is no assurance that it accurately represents the original document in any respect. Note that this is my perception; in many cases, I would find it hard to get evidence to back it up.

To call the use of "bitch" in a dog article, especially when used in reference to a breed standard, and most especially when the breed standard uses the word, profanity cannot be seen as anything but censorship.--Curtis Clark (talk) 02:21, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Push for GA status

This article is pretty close to being ready for nomination for GA standing. There are few more issues that need to be addressed. Perhaps interested editors could post new issues or try to fix them. Here is an initial list, put together in a peer review by Dana Boomer, and greatly modified by thesoxlost:

Pending

• tags: Spaying & Neutering
• Make sure that all of your web references have publishers and last access dates. Also, please make sure that you are actually using the publisher, and not the work. For example, with current ref #41 (The Case for Tail Docking), the publisher should be Council of Docked Breeds, not cdb.org.

Partially Addressed (possibly resolved)

• The article is a bit bloated. It should be shortened in places; some relatively trivial sections could be deleted.
• Referencing greatly improve. Still could use a little work: Disorders & Diseases; Dangerous Substances; Overpopulation; Dog communication
• There are a lot of short sections in the article. For as many of these as possible, please either expand them or combine them with other sections.

Resolved

• There are several sections in the article (Working, utility and assistance dogs, Show and sport (competition) dogs, Dangerous substances) that are composed almost completely of lists. MOS discourages lists in articles, so these should be turned into prose as much as possible.
• Please make sure that the discussion regarding naming is completed and the decision is finalized with consensus one way or the other before you nominate for GA status.
• There are two citation banners in the article, both for lack of inline citations, and both were placed there several months ago.
• There shouldn't be external links in the body of the article as there are at the end of the Ancestry and history of domestication section. Instead, these should be turned into references, moved to the external links section, or removed altogether.
• References that are in English do not need to be marked as such. References that are in any language other than English do need to be marked.
• Current ref #70 (Wolf at my door) deadlinks.
• The Australian National Kennel Club external link deadlinks

--Thesoxlost (talk) 22:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Conflict between Dog and Gray Wolf articles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_Wolf

The Dog article says that the Domestic Dog is a subspecies of the Gray Wolf. That is to say, the Gray Wolf is a species with several subspecies, of which the Domestic Dog is but one. The Domestic Dog, then, is a subset of Gray Wolf. All Domestic Dogs are Gray Wolves, but not all Gray Wolves are Domestic Dogs. (Forgive my caps, which I have included for clarity.)

The Gray Wolf article states in one place that the Domestic Dog shares ancestry with the Gray Wolf. Elsewhere, it states that the Gray Wolf is an ancestor to the Domestic Dog.

The ideas presented in the two articles are not, under close analysis, compatible. If the set A is ancestral to the set B, then the set A cannot also include the set B.

I think we need to pick a winner on this one, and stick with it.

Ordinary Person (talk) 05:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ordinary, I responded over at Talk:Gray Wolf. These statements are not contradictory. --Thesoxlost (talk) 18:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Diet

It´s classified like a carnivore but is a omnivore... ??? what kind of affirmation is it?

Although there are reported cases (...) of carnivores eating plants, the classification refers to the adaptations and main food source of the species in general so these exceptions do not make either individual animals nor the species as a whole omnivores.