Talk:Albert Einstein

Einstein was not Jewish?

Einstein letter shows disdain for religion: Albert Einstein described belief in God as "childish superstition" and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1951333/Einstein-thought-religions-were-'childish'.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2008/05/einstein_god_is_human_weakness_1.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Babakmd (talk • contribs) 14:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Please read our article and understand the difference between a religious follower of Judaism and an ethnic Jew. The two classes of people have a large overlap, but are quite different. According to most interpretations, all 4 combinations are possible. Who is a Jew? might be useful, too. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

But others documents dont say this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.237.243.140 (talk) 01:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Umm... Can we put "Non-Religious" under his religious stance in the infobox? I was looking for his religious stance and after reading the whole religious views section, it became pretty obvious that he was not religious during the latter part of his life (which is the one that should be mentioned in the infobox). Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

His religious stance defies classification. Most anything you could say about it in a few words could be negated by an Einstein quote—in this case, "… in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man." —teb728 t c 00:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, his religious stance is very clear if you include the full quote rather than cherry picking the end: "I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it". So, he was not religious, but did admire the complexity of the world - just like most other physicists... 78.105.234.140 (talk) 14:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course he was Jewish, whether he was religious in the conventional sense or not. On that general topic, I give you this story, from Groucho Marx: "I knew a fellow named Otto Kahn, who was a very rich man, and he gave a lot of money to the Metropolitan Opera House at one time. And his close friend was Marshall P. Wilder, who was a hunchback. And they were walking down Fifth Avenue, and they came to a synagogue, and Kahn turned to Wilder and he said 'Marshall, you know I used to be a Jew.' Marshall said 'Really? I used to be a hunchback.'" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds racist to me.

What, that story? Groucho Marx was also Jewish. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Your point being?

That (1) it wasn't racist, as Groucho was also Jewish; and (2) Einstein was Jewish, whether he was a "practicing" Jew or not, and that was the point Groucho, a fellow Jew, was making in that story about another Jew named Otto Kahn - that he was not a practicing Jew, but was still a Jew, because it's not just a religion, it's also an ethnic group. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Here (1) is completely and utterly besides the point, and (2) only confirms it. An "ethnic group", in anthropology, is a vague designation covering a loosely defined group of people that share a language, customs, etc. If one uses "ethnic group" in this way, it is clear that these are fluid criteria, that whether or not an individual belongs to an ethnic group may be an ill-posed question, and that, in this case, we are not dealing with an ethnic group, but with some sort of aftershadow of one. If "ethnic group" is used as User:BaseBall Bugs (and others elsewhere in Wikipedia) seem to be doing, it is just a euphemism for something close to "race". Feketekave (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Jewish" is not a race, it's an ethnic group. And as Groucho pointed out, if you're Jewish, then you're Jewish, even if you're not a "practicing" Jew. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but if you categorise a third person based on his descent - rather than, say, his language - you are truly going by something much closer to (imagined) race than to a bona fide ethnic group (to the extent that there is such a thing). As for "if you are X, you are X" - this is not a very convincing argument. Feketekave (talk) 11:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

What do the sources say about whether he was Jewish or not? And if he wasn't Jewish, why was he on Hitler's "hit list"? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The sources in all probability do not even agree on what the word means. As for Hitler's hit list: being classified as a Jew by Hitler makes you into somebody who has been classified as a Jew by Hitler, and absolutely nothing else. If you state the contrary, then you are allowing language to be defined by Hitler. That is fair enough, and may be a sensible policy for some periods in history - but then you should say so. (Quite besides that, Einstein was also on Hitler's hit list for political reasons, as quite a lot of other people were - and of course the Nazis persecuted other "racial" groups as well.) Feketekave (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

This angle seems to be exaggerated in Wikipedia, especially in the biographies of great men. At the same time, while Einstein was for all intents and purposes not from anything any reasonable person would call a Jewish background, he was involved in early Zionist politics, and advocated some sort of ethnic identity - almost a nationalistic one. His life was also affected by racism in some ways - of course, that is a separate issue, and does not necessarily go together with anything else, though it does here. All of that can be treated in the relevant place within the biography, with whatever importance each of these things had in this or that period of his life. What we should avoid is tagging a man or claiming him for (the Hall of Fame of) a group, as opposed to describing him. In general, we should prefer descriptions - the more nuanced and adjusted to the subject of the biography, the better - to definitions, many of which are unencyclopaedic. Feketekave (talk) 07:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Feketekave, according to your talk page you have a strong personal feeling against categorizing people by racial or ethnic categories, so it doesn't make any difference to you whether Einstein was in fact Jewish, you would still object.

I think there is a strong consensus on WP that in certain biographies, such as Einstein's, his religion and ethnic background are relevant to his life, and should be included. If you claim that it isn't, that sounds like WP:OR to me. I think your changes should be reverted until you get consensus. Nbauman (talk) 09:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Nbauman - as I said below, I am completely uninterested in "whether Einstein was in fact Jewish"; that is to some extent an unencyclopaedic question.

One of the problems is precisely that there is not a consensus; there is a very strong tendency, which is not the same thing. A consensus would be applied consistently across the board. As it is, it seems simply that (good) famous men are made into Jews (sometimes on much slimmer grounds than Einstein). There is a thread on that (many, in fact) in Talk:Bernard Madoff; it would be good to take a look at that and perhaps go back and forth a little there. (If the discussion truly becomes general, the village pump might be best.) Feketekave (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If he wasn't Jewish, he certainly had Hitler fooled. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

No reason why we should agree with Hitler, or work with his categories. By the way, it wasn't I who chose the title of this section; opposing a statement of the form "X is Y" is not the same as asserting "X is not Y". Feketekave (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Feketekave, please read WP:TALK. Your comments should go at the bottom of the discussion, not in the middle. Otherwise I can't follow what you're saying. Nbauman (talk) 17:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Quite a bit of time in the archives of this discussion page has already been spent discussing whether Einstein's status as an ethnic Jew should be mentioned in the infobox/lead/category/etc. Consensus at least emerged to have Jewish as in the relevant field of the infobox, based on (among reams of discussion) also a straw poll. Furthermore, the issue of whether Einstein should be characterized as German-born, American, Swiss, Swiss-American, Jewish, etc., in the lead has also been discussed, and the consensus to emerge from that discussion was simply to say "German-born", rather than to attempt to dissect his rather complicated nationality in the first sentence. His nation of birth is relevant in order to give context for the German pronunciation of his name. Accordingly, I have reverted one of Feketekave's edits (which also lacked an edit summary). I am considering whether to revert the rest of them. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 19:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted the lot. Removal of all German-related and Jew-related categories shows exceptionally poor judgment. For instance, the category Category:German Jews who emigrated to the United States to escape Nazism is absolutely relevant. Perhaps some of the other categories such as Category:German agnostics should be discussed. (I am neutral about some of these, but the case should be made individually for exclusion.) siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Good point about Category:German Jews who emigrated to the United States to escape Nazism. The U.S. benefited immensely from the expulsion of German Jewish scientists, almost as a group. It changed the nature of American science. It's definitely significant and notable. Nbauman (talk) 22:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

What is relevant there is Refugees from Nazism, if such a category exists. Not all refugees fled Germany because of the racial laws; not all, by any means, had Judaism as their religion. The specific reasons why they were persecuted may have made a difference in Germany, but it is hard to see how they made a difference in the U.S. or to the U.S.

I also do not see why "Swiss-American" should be removed. We are talking about two citizenships that Einstein deliberately used. As for Einstein's acceptance of "ethnic" categories - and, indeed, his Zionism - they should be mentioned in the appropriate section of his biography, as positions that he took at certain points in his life.

I do not see how there is such a thing as "Jewish science" or "German agnosticism". Einstein was a scientist, Einstein was an agnostic, Einstein was once a German, Einstein believed in the existence of something called the Jewish people; all of these things should be mentioned in the biography. A category of scientists would certainly be useful, and one for agnostics might conceivably be useful as well. It is many of the ethnic categories themselves that show exceptionally poor judgement - to use an expression introduced above - on the part of those who created them and use them. They serve no purpose other than the desire to claim and tag. Feketekave (talk) 00:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

PS. I have taken the liberty to change the title of this discussion; I hope it was OK. (It was chosen by a different user who also seems to be critical of what is or was the current state of affairs; there does not seem to be much of a consensus yet.) Feketekave (talk) 00:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually it's not OK, because some of the replies don't make sense, which is the main reason for not changing things in talk. But I won't change it. Nbauman (talk) 01:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This thread is running increasingly afoul of WP:POINT, Feketekave. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 01:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD, the onus is one you, Feketekave, to develop consensus here rather than force your own version of the article against the previous consensus (here and abundantly discussed in the archives, which you so far have shown no sign of having read). I suggest that you start a WP:RFC rather than continuing an edit war here. If you do not come up with an agreeable phrasing for an RfC, then I will start one myself. Thanks, siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 01:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I hope we do not have an edit war here yet. I thank you for your references, and would rather you refrained from making assumptions on what I have and haven't read. See also WP:CIVIL. Please refrain from making blanket accusations of "exceptionally poor judgement" (which you have made more than once).

We seem to agree on some issues, one of them being - it seems - that this is a general topic that should be subject to a general discussion in a common place, rather than here. What would be the difference between bringing it up to RfC and bringing it up in the Village Pump? What would you think more appropriate/helpful, and why? Feketekave (talk) 01:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This is not a policy matter, so the village pump does not seem to be an appropriate venue. Since the issue appears to be a single editor attempting to override an existing consensus, the usual approach is to start an RfC in the hopes of bringing more eyes on the subject. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 01:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to be a policy matter, at least in the sense that the same issue could and does arise elsewhere. What is the appropriate use of tags? How are individuals going to be catalogued?

Incidentally, it was not I who started this thread; I am certainly not the only one who does not agree with you. Previous discussions show anything but an agreement. (They also throw more heat than light; let us try to keep things from developing in that way again.)

You are welcome to attract more attention both to this discussion page and to Talk:Bernard Madoff, since we seem to go back and forth both here and there. Feketekave (talk) 01:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I have restored the original title of this section. In the context of Wikipedia "tags" typically means "maintenance tags" like {{npov}}, {{or}}, and so forth. The little things at the bottom of articles are known as categories (and colloquially "cats"), and are meant to be a navigational aid articles related to a given subject. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 02:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not, by the way, the same person as Babakmd above or Coralandstarr below; feel free to run a checkuser if that is what you are implying. Feketekave (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC).

I'm not aware of any such implication. But you restarted this discussion in a dead thread (that should have been archived). The current discussion is totally disjoint from the previous one, which at any rate seemed to conflate the Jewish religion with the Jewish people. But, here we are, in the thread that you decided to continue, like it or not. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 02:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

(To Feketekave) I agree with the assertion that categories are not binary, and I much prefer to err on the side of overcategorization than undercategorization, given that the stated purpose of categorization is to serve as a navigation aid rather than to be an absolute judgment of the article. That said, your rationale for excluding Einstein from these categories, and removing various references to his Jewish heritage from the text is that he is not Jewish enough. Above you say: "[Einstein was] not from anything any reasonable person would call a Jewish background." Well, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not "truth". Many reliable sources indicate that Einstein was Jewish: not religiously, but ethnically so. So both the requirements of WP:V, and what seems the weaker requirement of your reasonable person test would seem to be adequately met. Sources also show that his membership to the Jewish people significantly influenced details of his public life. Equally it influenced the more private biographical details — such as enduring anti-semiticism and the flight from Nazi Germany. Now, since the details of Einstein's ethnic heritage are clearly verifiable, including Einstein's own self-identification with the group, and they obviously played a notable role in his public and private life, I can see no reason at all not to include Einstein in these categories. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 13:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but you are confusing several different things. I could self-identify as (say) Poldavian; this would not make my family Poldavian. There could be sources (such as, say, the League of Anti-Poldavians and the Lovers of Poldavianism) that might call me a Poldavian. This is different from a situation where there are sources stating that I drink coffee. At issue is whether we are going to have this sort of categorisation - I have already stated why calling it "ethnic" is ambiguous at best and fallacious at worst - and whether it makes any sense to copy other people's usage of these terms. We are not talking about facts, but rather about classification and language. Feketekave (talk) 11:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Einstein was born to a Jewish family; we have sources for this. If you wish to contest this point, please bring other reliable sources here. Otherwise, we will go with what our sources say. Thanks for playing. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 13:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

These alleged sources are worthless if there if they do not agree on what a "Jewish family" is. Feketekave (talk) 13:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way - you are completely misstating my rationale. Feketekave (talk) 11:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

A direct quote from your post misrepresents your rationale? Ok. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 13:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

One more thing: I agree completely that the purpose of categorisation is to serve as an aid to navigation. This is a strong argument in favour of eliminating most categories as applied to subjects of wikipedia biographies. It is extremely unlikely that somebody would learn about Einstein by going through a list of Swiss Jews (or, say Amateur violinists who lived in New Jersey). Feketekave (talk) 11:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

We will go with what sources say. If most reliable sources that say that Einstein was not Jewish, then we should say that. But I'm having trouble finding such a single such source. Interestingly, a Google book search for "Einstein was not Jewish" revealed this interview with Alan Ginsberg, in which Ginsberg identifies both Einstein and himself as Jews amid an argument on whether Jewish is an ethnicity. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 13:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This debate has been discussed and resolved at Jewish, and specifically at Who is a Jew. That's the WP consensus and I think we should follow it. If you want to open it up again, that would be the place. Note that the illustrations in Jewish use Einstein as an example. Interestingly, of the 4 examples illustrated, 3 are secular and 1 is religious. Some contemporaries said Emma Lazarus converted to Catholicism. Nbauman (talk) 19:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to disagree. That is simply an article section on the different common usages of the word "Jewish" and "Jew". On other people's advice, I have started a thread at [[1]]. That seems to be an appropriate place for a general discussion.

To sillyrabbit: I did not choose the discussion title, and, in fact, I find it supremely silly. If User:Silly rabbit believes it represents my position, then he is simply unable to read what I write.

We have no duty to categorise individuals as some sources do. There are some classifications that are not encyclopaedic: if many sources called an individual "wonderful", he would still not be called "wonderful" here. As User:Nbauman seems to indicate, this is a general issue that has been and has to be discussed. To try to solve it by WP:Verifiability is a strategy better left to silly rabbits. Feketekave (talk) 13:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

In the thread you referenced above, you write "As for Einstein: to put things crudely, he was less 'Jewish' than Madoff and more so than Heine. To wit, Einstein was not from anything anybody would recognise as a Jewish background..." And here you have repeated a similar statement. So, quite apart from misrepresenting your position, I think I have given a fair summary of it. And no, this is not based on the title of the section, but on your very own posts. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

You have mistaken (or tried to pass) a side issue for the main point. Feketekave (talk) 13:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Just telling you!

I thought Einstien was very religious. I thought he also read the Bible five times. By the way, he was not Jewish. I'm agreeing with the article or whatever it was up top. P. S. I think you need to change it or "update it." Coralandstarr (talk) 18:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

This is my nominee for talk page post of the year. -TremorMilo (sorry not logged in) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.218.53.49 (talk) 02:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, this talk page post is pure gold. Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading this article thoroughly, great sourcing throughout. Are there any other statues of Einstein? 13.16.137.12 (talk) 13:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Einstein once said that he believed in Spinoza's God who revealed himself in the harmony of all being. In other words, he believed in a relationship between objects not between sentient beings. Torricelli01 (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

"Schooling" dispute

I have Asperger's syndrome, and taking that into account, we're pretty sure that Einstein had Asperger's as well. I know that Asperger people learn in different ways than normal people. From what I heard, I'm certain that Einstein failed arithmetic. And it seems to me that these sources written in the 2000s that say he was a top student in elementary school are done by leftists who want to rewrite history.

Let me note that it is commonly written that FDR was a great US President and that his New Deal got the US out of the Great Depression, all of which is very doubtful. We believe that hiring more people for jobs would better do the trick rather than more federal gov't intervention. We believe it was the entry into World War II that really ended the Depression.

Unless you guys have some really good reasoning why I shouldn't leave this "top student" part out, I don't think it should stay. Let's try three days, if there's no response to this, I will proceed to remove this sourced note. Marcus2 (talk) 23:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Einstein was a good student in school. The "Einstein failed arithmetic" meme came from a misunderstanding of the Swiss grading system, which used higher numerical grades to signify better performance (as opposed to the German system, where 1 is the best grade and 6 is the worst). See e.g. [2], [3], [4] --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite understand the first sentence in your post - why does the fact that you have Asperger's mean that you know Einstein had it? However, putting that aside, you say "from what I heard" Einstein failed arithmetic. Unfortunately because you think you've heard something somewhere that doesn't mean you can start deleting referenced information from wikipedia. If you can find a reference to say he failed mathematics then by all means put it in as a qualification to what's already there. As for the stuff about "leftists trying to rewrite history" that's your own point of view, which you are entitled to, but wikipedia is all about verifiability, not what you or I think is true. I've heard too that Einstein may have had Asperger's but I think you will find that the general consensus is that making a medical diagnosis of someone who is no longer alive is very unreliable. However, if you can find some references about the possibility of him having Asperger's, I think it would make an interesting addition to the article Richerman (talk) 00:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well said, Richerman. I learned my lesson about removing sources from articles. That's why I brought this up on the talk page before the possibility of reverting it! I recently informed another Wikipedian that he was removing sourced material, so I reverted his edits. You may think I don't get the picture, but I do. Marcus2 (talk) 00:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

also please dont accuse 'leftists' of doing anything you don't like - clearly any uninformed person would assume, by what you have written, that 'rightists' are ignorant fools who want to rewrite history according to their misconceptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.158.183.6 (talk) 01:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Make this a featured article [again]

The reason why Albert Einstein is not a featured article is because it is too long and goes too far in depth on some topics.

I would like to make Albert Einstein become a featured article again by shortening parts of it. But what sections should I start in? Any suggestions would be very helpful.

Thanks! MathCool10 03:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm thankful for this article's depth. I wouldn't trim a thing. Johnlogic (talk) 01:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Here are my suggestions for getting the article up to FA:

• The section "See also" is far too long as most of the articles mentioned should be woven into the text as wikilinks - for instance, "Mass-energy equivalence" could by linked from E=MC2.
• The "Publications" section should be changed to "Bibliography" and there should be inline citations referring to the page numbers of the publications in that section such as "Einstein, A. (1940) p.23"
• Check that there's nothing in the lead paragraph that isn't mentioned something else in the article.
• The section "Impact on poular culture" should go as it is just trivia.
• There is some overlinking in the article as some articles are linked more than once.
• The reference section needs to be tidied up as there is more than one format used. Richerman (talk) 02:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem with Einstein is that everybody wants a piece of him, so the article has accrued some information that is of little interest to most readers. The discussion of his technical work is already about as brief as it can be without becoming a distortion. Places to trim would be biographical trivia not directly bearing on his lifework and the lengthy discussion of his religious views, which could be boiled down to maybe two sentences. Editorial discretion is essential, in order to provide or link to information about specific items of notable special interest, e.g. whether Mileva contributed significantly to the theory of relativity. — DAGwyn (talk) 15:50, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I can not find this article to long. One clould cut down a little of the early life and his religios views. Imho this is no major problem.--WerWil (talk) 01:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The length of the article is presently 93 KB. WP:SIZE (part of the Wikipedia Manual of Style) recommends that articles over 60 KB “probably should be divided” and articles over 100 KB “almost certainly should be divided.” As it explains there, long article cause problems for some users. —teb728 t c 05:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok. This Article is in the Problably section. So what? If it is probably (and as I said I don't think so) to long it has certainliy not to be featured? --WerWil (talk) 17:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The two huge quotes under "Religious Views" should be cut or cut out. There is no justification for such whopping quotations. Myrvin (talk) 21:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Both

Einstein's illnesses in 1895 and 1919 seem to have been mental illnesses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.21 (talk) 11:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for that, or is it just your opinion? —teb728 t c 19:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

See "The History of the Laser", by Mario Bertolotti, on page 84, " ...1895, with a certificate

from the family doctor that declared a nervous breakdown."

Many try to minimise the certificate, saying that it referred to a "possible" or "potential"

breakdown. One effort even says that the certificate was a "fabrication". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.21 (talk • contribs)

According to Mayo Clinic psychiatrist Daniel Hall-Flavin, M.D., "Nervous breakdown isn't a medical term, however, nor does it indicate a specific mental illness".

Please sign your talk page comments with 4 tildes (~~~~)? - Thanks. - DVdm (talk) 18:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

An older version of the Wikipedia article on Einstein, of 28/11/2006,

has "partial nervous breakdown", for about 1919. The actual diseases said to

have afflicted Einstein in 1919 are given very variously. This suggests that they

were largely or entirely fictitious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.21 (talk) 10:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Religion field in info box

Naturally this article needs to cover Einstein's religious views. However, should the infobox include "religious stance"? See the discussion on removing religion from the infobox for scientists. --Johnuniq (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a proposal for removing the religion field from the infobox. If anyone has any strong feelings about whether the religion field should be in the template, they should add their opinion. Nbauman (talk) 18:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Citizenship

In the long list of Einstein's ever-changing citizenship, there is a gap between 1896 and 1901. Does anyone know what his citizenship would have been during this period? Why the gap? Udibi (talk) 06:49, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

He was stateless during that period. He renounced his German citizenship in 1896 and acquired Swiss citizenship in 1901. In between he was not a citizen of any country. —teb728 t c 22:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

So, at the end, should or shouldn't Einstein be called "Swiss-American"? Were these not his two nationalities during most of his adult life? Feketekave (talk) 13:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The article already says he remained a citizen of Switzerland and the United States for the rest of his life. I would say that tagging him with an explicit "Swiss-American" label would put undue emphasis on his citizenship—particularly in light of his opposition to nationalism. —teb728 t c 03:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

last words?

I have seen a claim, on various places on the internet, and in a publication, that Einstein's last words are lost; since he said them in German and the only other person present didn't speak it. I cannot, however, find a reliable source for this. Is the statement true or false, and should it be mentioned either way? --70.171.186.233 (talk) 02:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

It was in the article for a while, but it was deleted as trivial. —teb728 t c 04:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Possible WP:COPYVIO from New Scientist

Deleted. Original here. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Nobel Prize Money

This article claims Albert Einstein did not send his Nobel Prize money to his first wife, Mileva. A review of the reference page cited appears to indicate it to be a political opinion piece rather than fact based. I have read numerous accounts of Einstein's life and there appears to be considerable documentation in public records that he did, in fact, send the money as per their agreement. She used the money to purchase three apartment buildings outright. The buildings did not pay off nearly as well as she had hoped, but they did provide her with a comfortable living for the remainder of her life. In addition, their boys grew up with her, not Albert and Maric.CharmsDad (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I don’t understand. Which are you saying might be a political opinion piece—the version that he gave the money to Mileva or the version that he did not? And are saying the BBC News article was a political opinion piece? Or are you saying the author of the BBC article indicated one of the stories was a political opinion piece? Your “numerous accounts” probably date from before 2006, when the letters were released, right?

More importantly, do you have a reference to a reliable source who is aware of the recently released letters but still believes he gave the money to Mileva? —teb728 t c 21:58, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Is your comprehension ability really that poor? The BBC "article" is clearly an opinion piece. So what if the public records are pre 2006? Simply because someone has an opinion regarding a few personal letters doesn't invaidate the factual status of banking and property purchase records in the public archives. The arrogent tone of your response is typical of those who are so bent on forcing their PC opinions through and declaring them "fact" no what the reality might be.CharmsDad (talk) 06:10, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarification. Again I ask: do you have a reference to a reliable source where a historian aware of the letters has considered the older sources in the light of the letters and still believes he gave the money to Mileva? Neither your opinion of the BBC article nor mine counts for anything. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is published reliable sources. —teb728 t c 07:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

tongue

Why isn't there a mention about the famous tongue picture? 62.173.86.208 (talk) 13:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

It's in the subarticle Albert Einstein in popular culture. —teb728 t c 21:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

why not start by correcting a few factual errors?

Youth and schooling:

• "Albert Einstein was born into ... electrical equipment based on Direct current. The Einsteins were not observant of Jewish religious practices, and Albert attended a Catholic elementary school."
  

→ nobody, not even einstein, begins his schooling in a gymnasium!

• "In his early teens, Einstein attended the Luitpold Gymnasium (today Albert-Einstein-Gymnasium). His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Einstein clashed with authorities and resented the school regimen. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning." ...
  

→ the gymnasium cannot have been (very) progressive, if einstein resented the school regime to the point of not finishing school.

• "Rather than completing high school, Einstein decided to apply directly to the Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule ('Poly', today ETH) in Zürich, Switzerland. Lacking a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass, although he got exceptional marks in mathematics and physics. ... ...to finally enroll in the mathematics program at the 'Poly'. ... In 1896, Einstein's future wife, Mileva Marić, also enrolled at the 'Poly', as the only woman studying mathematics and physics. During the next few years, Einstein and Marić's friendship developed into romance. Einstein graduated in 1900 from the 'Poly' with a degree in physics."
  

→ ETH is the newer name (since 1911) of what was called "Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule" ('Poly') in einsteins youth.

Marriage and family life:

• "Albert and Marić divorced on 14 February 1919, ... Einstein married Elsa Löwenthal (née Einstein), who had nursed him through an illness."

→ i think it is appropriate to mention the fact, that elsa löwenthals maiden name was einstein, allthough she was only second cousin paternally. --Ajnem (talk) 18:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I made a couple of your proposed changes, removing the first mention of gymnasium, and adding Elsa's maiden name. I wouldn't object if someone else made the other changes, but: I don't see a point in removing "progressive" (BTW that's not why he dropped out.) And I don't see a point in getting technical about the name of ETH. Are you saying they were not maternal side cousins? —teb728 t c 05:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

to whom it may concern

• there is one very good reason, why the "Luitpold Gymnasium" should not be called "progressive": because according to the article itself ("Einstein ...resented the school regimen. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning"), it wasn't, and contradictions should be avoided! besides, i have a vague memory, that the school was militaristic and antisemitic, but i'm not sure.
• the Polytechnic/ETH change is of a certain importence: the 'poly', as it is still called occasionally (the annual ball of the ETH is still called "Poly Ball", the cable car, going up to the ETH is still called "Poly Bähnli") started as a school, not a university - for political reasons. and there were no accademic degrees until after einstein finished his studies there, which explains, why he got a teachers degree, and why he later got his doctorate from the university of zürich, not the polytechnic. so i suggest the fellowing changes:
  

"Rather than completing high school, Einstein decided to apply directly to the Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule (later Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule ETH) in Zürich, Switzerland. Lacking a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass, although he got exceptional marks in mathematics and physics. ... ...to finally enroll in 1896 in the mathematics and physics program at the Polytechnic. ... In the same year, Einstein's future wife, Mileva Marić, also entered the Polytechnic to study mathematics and physics, as the only woman. During the next few years, Einstein and Marić's friendship developed into romance. Einstein graduated in 1900 with a diploma as a teacher for mathematics and physics."
if i'm not mistaken, both einstein and maric studied mathematics and physics. if that is so, please make the corrections.

• and no, i'm not saying that the einsteins were not maternal side cousins.--Ajnem (talk) 18:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC), --Ajnem (talk) 16:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Please correct error: Marriage and family life

... On 14 May 1904, Albert and Mileva's first son, Hans Albert, was born in Berne, Switzerland. Their second son, Eduard, was born in Munich Zurich on 28 July 1910.--Ajnem (talk) 08:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)