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*'''Comment''' this template is related to a region, and the terms used to describe that regione are related to [[Irrendetism|irredentism]]. We need to be absolutely neutral.--[[User:Alarichus|Alarichus]] ([[User talk:Alarichus|talk]]) 08:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' this template is related to a region, and the terms used to describe that regione are related to [[Irrendetism|irredentism]]. We need to be absolutely neutral.--[[User:Alarichus|Alarichus]] ([[User talk:Alarichus|talk]]) 08:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.Epirus is a region that has existed for several thousand years.There was a south and a north just like an east and west of it.The term is used in archeological books as well as in political books or those of our recent history.
*'''Keep'''.Epirus is a region that has existed for several thousand years.There was a south and a north just like an east and west of it.The term is used in archeological books as well as in political books or those of our recent history.
*'''Comment''', please do not express irredentist beliefs. Megistias, please sign your comment. As wikipedians we should be as neutral as possible, and that is why we must not support irredentist opinions of certain ethnic groups. --[[User:Alarichus|Alarichus]] ([[User talk:Alarichus|talk]]) 09:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


==== [[Template:Mi-ref]] ====
==== [[Template:Mi-ref]] ====

Revision as of 09:33, 7 September 2009

< September 5 September 7 >

September 6


Template:Infobox CityIT

Template:Infobox CityIT (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox settlement}}, with which instances should be replaced. This is part of a large-scale operation to merge similar geographical infoboxes into the generic parent, to reduce maintenance overheads. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Northern Epirus

Template:Northern Epirus (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

I am nominating this template for deletion on behalf of another user. "This template is based on irredentist views of a particular ethnic group. "Northern Epirus” is an irredentist term, and therefore it would be highly POV to maintain a template regarding it." From what I understand of the subject, this template appears inappropriate, though I profess I am no expert. J Milburn (talk) 22:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete as per nom. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 23:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment perhaps it would be better to rename it to a more neutral title, e.g. "Greek minority in Albania". The term "Northern Epirus" does indeed represent the Greek POV, but that does not mean that as a subject group (Greeks in southern Albania) it does not exist, that it does not have its own history and could use a navbox to summarize the relevant articles. There are many similar navboxes on minority groups, after all. Constantine ✍ 00:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Apart from being considered irredentist the term is mainly associated with Greek populations that live in southern Albania (they call it N.E. and 785 hits in googlebooks use it too), which is the main reason that it exists. Historically, the term was rejected as irredentist by the Albanian communist regime (1945-1991). I see no reason to delete a 'term' virtually adopting a tottalitarian approach. Actually the template's title is Northern Epirus region & Greek culture in Albania (as per geographic and cultural background). For example template:Cham Albanians template is also considered irredentist by many Greeks, but the term concerns history and culture of a specific group that self identifies itself as 'Chams' (originating from Chameria-also considered an ir. term by some Greek). The same situation exists with a group called 'Northern Epirotes' that originates from 'Northern Epirus'. Imagine deleting any reference about terms associated with minorities because they are considered irredentism by parts of neiboring socities...Alexikoua (talk) 05:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment this template is related to a region, and the terms used to describe that regione are related to irredentism. We need to be absolutely neutral.--Alarichus (talk) 08:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep.Epirus is a region that has existed for several thousand years.There was a south and a north just like an east and west of it.The term is used in archeological books as well as in political books or those of our recent history.
  • Comment, please do not express irredentist beliefs. Megistias, please sign your comment. As wikipedians we should be as neutral as possible, and that is why we must not support irredentist opinions of certain ethnic groups. --Alarichus (talk) 09:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Mi-ref

Template:Mi-ref (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This is only used in a single article, and it really doesn't have purpose in that article anymore. TTN (talk) 21:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Coming out

Template:Coming out (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This template seems like a really bad idea. Besides the obvious possibilities for vandalism, why does this even need to be announced in a template at the top of an article? Generally, we don't draw attention to people's sexuality in this way; if a person's 'coming out' is sufficiently notable, it will be mentioned in their article anyway, but I cannot think of a single circumstance when using this template would be appropriate. Robofish (talk) 20:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete I understand that the purpose of this template is like the purpose of {{Recent death}}. Nevertheless, I do not think the event of recently "coming out" is in the same order of importance as a person's demise, to warrant the use of this template. It may be important for the person doing the "coming out", and for the GBTL-community (who is always overly eager to welcome new members in its midst), but I fail to see the value of this event for the maintenance aspects of our encyclopedia. 20:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)Debresser (talk)
  • Delete. What the heck is the point of notifying our readers about this in a big, friendly box at the top of the article? --Conti|✉ 20:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep With all due respect to my fellow wikipedians I think this template is particularly useful at moments where someone (usually a notable personality) has come out of the closet. That said, I understand that some users might find extremely unusual to notify that a person has come out of the closet. However, you must acknowledge that the LGBT community has gone to great lengths to be taken seriously and I personally don't see how this template could not be of help as a follow up of who has or has not come out of the closet. As far as comparing this template to the template recent death in not being in the same level of importance it's my opinion that coming out of the closet is a milestone in anyone's life, especially those ones that are public figures. As the creator of such template I request the editors to keep an open mind regarding the importance of such template. I must add, this template has not been added as a trolling move whatsoever and as many of you can see I do use my real name in my contributions here in the English Wikipedia and I do believe this template is to be taken seriously. I would also like to request the involvement of editors of Wikiprojects related to the LGBT community so they can also give their opinion on this particular matter. Thanks.--Camilo Sanchez (talk) 21:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete If it's important information it should be stated in the article and lead. Not on a simple template. Garion96 (talk) 22:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and per Debresser. For the record, I'm gay and a member of Wikiproject LGBT studies. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 23:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - unnecessarily draws attention to the fact, and a potential tool for vandalism. If the specific event concerned is newsworthy, we already have templates for this. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - seems pointless. If somebody comes out LGBT, the LGBT template can be applied with the appropriate section highlighted. Mish (talk) 01:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - If the LGBT community wants to be taken seriously (which of course we do), this is a step in the wrong direction. Granted, coming out is a milestone in a person's life, but then again, so is turning 18, getting accepted into college, getting married, or becoming a mother or a father, and it would be equally ridiculous to have templates for those as well. Coming out, as well as the other examples I mentioned simply aren't comparable to one's death. I am also a member of Wikiproject LGBT studies and a transwoman. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 04:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It makes it into something it isn't - do we have boxes to announce that a person is straight? It's not like the moment they come out, part of them dies and it needs to be elevated to a glaring notification at the top of the article. If they are a prominent spokesperson or activist or artist/musician for whom being gay is central to their notability and work, then it can be in the lead of the article and still doesn't need a template. There is also massive BLP issues for us as a project if either they are not gay, or not publicly or openly gay - our saying so in bold caps causes them distress or discrimination in their real lives, especially in parts of the world with far less progressive legal regimes than our own. (Interpret GLBTIQ etc for "gay" in any of the above, I use the term purely for convenience of reference) Orderinchaos 08:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepSounds like a sensible innovation. Visibility of gay men and women in any media remains low, therefore anything that helps highlight where a public figure has come out is to be welcomed in the interests of improving transparency. I can think if several articles where this would work well. I'm less concerned about vandalism as an argument against. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Launchballer

Template:Launchballer (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This is a user's signature template. In essence, the user launchballer places this on a talk page, fills in some parsers and his message, then leaves it without substing. A template's not needed to flag that specifically launchballer has left a message on a page. GrooveDog (oh hai.) 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Violation of signature guidelines, abuse of template namespace, and not at all constructive. Resolute 21:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I thought that the idea of having the talk bubbles and burgers would be a good idea. There are no ParserFunctions on that page. Also, if I were to substitute it, it would leave so much crap dotted around the editing window it's just uncanny. It's not for specifically me, thats why I also wrote some editable ones (talkbubble and burger). And BTW, those images are, as I have said before several times, NOT part of the signature itself. It is part of the talkbubble itself.--Launchballer 06:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Bad Warning

Template:Bad Warning (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Seems redundant with {{Uw-tempabuse}} template series. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 18:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Ascript

Template:Ascript (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Very old template. Redundant with {{IPA|ɑ}}. The especial character can be found in toolbox and in the special characters section of the new toolbar. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 18:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:ApacheLicense

Template:ApacheLicense (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

There is only one image tagged with this. The image should be moved to commons and the template deleted. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 18:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:AlumniStart2

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was speedy delete G7. JPG-GR (talk) 01:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:AlumniStart2 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Alum2 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:AlumniEnd2 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

All of them are duplicates ({{AlumniStart}}, {{Alum}} and {{AlumniEnd2}}). The only difference is that {{AlumniStart2}} use width as percentages instead of px. Unused. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 18:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't even remember creating this. Delete. --Pgp688 (talk) 00:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Alessandra Amoroso

Template:Alessandra Amoroso (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

No links. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 18:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Useless. Delete. Himalayan 18:35, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Aicelle Santos

Template:Aicelle Santos (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

One link. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 17:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Australian Place

Template:Infobox Australian Place (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This may not win any popularity contests but I would say the infoboxes need updating and allowing for a pin location map. I think the articles would look much better with a standard infobox (see Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/Standard settlement example) and really there is no reason to have special templates for Australia. The parameters are really in disorder with timezone amongst main population details and backwards district order at the bottom rather than everything at the top in top down order which is convention. See Alice Springs, Northern Territory, I think the proposed standard template would work better please see the example. Please note that any parameters can be taken out or included such is the flexibility of the template if their are any concerns about empty parameters.. P.S. then we can get rid of thise undightly dot maps which bloat the beginning of the articles. Nice high quality svgs within the templates are the way to go! Himalayan 17:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy Keep No valid grounds given for deletion, and user has failed to engage at the template's or the project's talk page before coming here. The user's issue with the template seems to be with specific usages of it rather than a general case (the template is used in literally thousands of articles including a variety of settlement types from Local Government Areas to cities and towns to suburbs). I'd be happy to see the dot maps go myself, but that is a matter for Images for deletion, not a template discussion (the field is normally used for pictures of the locale). See for example the featured articles Hamersley, Western Australia, Yarralumla, Australian Capital Territory and Waterfall Gully, South Australia as examples of their use "on the ground". Looking at the example I find it hard to imagine how any of these three articles would be accommodated, and certainly with many of our stubs, the proposed template would be substantially larger than the article. Orderinchaos 18:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep and direct nominator to discuss at Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia This is a high use template that is used in several thousand articles (if my maths is right it's about 6,646) and contains fields and information that is unique to Australian locations with unique linking. The nominator does not seem too familiar with the template as it already includes allowance for a pin location map, as used in articles such as Brisbane and Melbourne. The instructions for using the pin map are in the template documentation. The example that the nominator has used (Alice Springs, Northern Territory) is a poor example of the use of this template. Even an example such as Nelson Bay, New South Wales is a better example of the use of this template, which is not merely limited to individual settlements but to LGAs and even entire regions, such as Hunter Region. It appears that the aim of the nominator is replace the current infobox, which was decided on after considerable discussion, with his own version,[1] without involving the Wikipedians most affected. He should have discussed this first at Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia, not here. --AussieLegend (talk) 18:48, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It will be interesting to see how many people who oppose are not members of WP:Australia.... The thing is, what does this template provide that the standard cannot? That's why I ask, my main concern is that I have no idea where the places are by simply looking at the infoboxes in Australia... (you use the location map in an extremely limited group of articles...) I think the standard layout is cleaner and easier to follow (if I knew how to operate the template I could have added location maps too them, that is my point, they are not easy for outsiders to follow who have to get to grips with how they work..). Could you explain why you think it is necessary to have a special template for Australia? The reason why it is necessary to discuss it here and not WP:AU is because it involves the whole community who read and look at these articles, your project doesn't own the template and any discussion is likely to entirely one sided in terms of viewpoint.... Himalayan 18:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's only one sided when you avoid discussing with those actually affected by it, and then make a radical proposal without any clear grounds, simply putting forward your own template for How Things Should Be (tm). If you were more willing to work with editors in good faith, you'd find that some of your ideas will be accepted by local editors whilst others will not be. That's just the nature of it. As for "ownership", likewise, those who develop Infobox Settlement do not own all geographical articles and nor should they. In a global encyclopaedia we can afford to be local in our scope to some degree to give readers a full appreciation of the variety of our world. You imply in the above that we think we are somehow special or set apart - this fails to explain why a considerable number of countries have their own templates, including that mothership of the English language, Great Britain. Each group of editors decides what is best for their needs, and I fully support that. At times the IAP development people have seen ideas they've liked in other templates and incorporated them. (Likewise, I know of several instances where our ideas have been used by others around the world.) In at least a dozen instances, some editor from the US or UK has wandered onto the talk page and pointed something out that needs fixing - usually the next line is "Done." High-handedness and bad faith is not necessary.
To give just two examples of how Australia is in fact different - no country besides Australia, New Zealand and South Africa has a concept of "suburbs" that matches our usage (and the other two countries have less precise or different definitions than Australia, so what works for us wouldn't work for them), and with the standard template, one loses the border tables which link people to surrounding suburbs. Similar issues apply to Local Government Areas. Take for example the suburbs in the ACT where no level of local government exists but the capital is divided into "regions" which have no autonomous authority whatsoever - our template accommodates that, but the standard does not. As AussieLegend has pointed out, the current template has both a simplicity and flexibility which allows all Australian conditions (even some unanticipated ones if ever there is a need) to be accommodated. Orderinchaos 19:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Um, don't you think that actually the standard infobox settlement can cater for suburbs in Australia? Does NZ or South Africa have their own templates? I guarantee that the template can be used on any settlement under the sun... Himalayan 19:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Both have their own templates. And why should we settle for second best? "Can possibly be tailored to fit circumstances" vs "already fits circumstances well" is not really a competition. Orderinchaos 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well your goal was "standardising infoboxes across all towns and suburbs and creating a standard set of articles for Local Government Areas of Western Australia". So we evidently share similar goals, just a different point of view about which template to use. I think you just feel a little bit like I'm invading your turf so to speak because you have put time and energy into adding your templates to the articles, but I'm not, I just think wikipedia is better off having articles and documentation consistent.... I take things at face value. For instance Echuca, Victoria. I want to be able to glance at that infobox and know exactly where in Australia it. Why doesn't it providing a pushpin map to help my understanding? Then if I try to add a pushpin map and coordinates it won't work because I am unfamilar with the special template. Why can't all of the articles have a proper map and coordinates? Even Melbourne is not a good locator map for those who are unfamilar with Australia. Himalayan 19:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Within one single regulatory system, that is possible and desirable. All LGAs in Western Australia are governed by the same Act of Parliament, are accountable through the same Electoral Commission to voters, and through the same Local Government and Regional Development department to government itself. Even with other states we have occasional fractions which need to be resolved (eg the perennial Shire of ~ vs ~ Shire vs ~ (Shire) Council argument which is differently resolved in different places). Adding 200+ other countries is simply insane. I do not think consistency for its own sake is a good goal when we lose diversity - consistency only works when it is genuinely possible to be consistent. It has nothing to do with turf - I believe each country with an editing population large enough to justify it *should* have its own system, the argument is just as pertinent for countries in continental Europe with their own traditions, customs, languages and ways of doing things as it is for us. Where the population is not large enough to justify it and the detail will never be there, or if the editors of a given area believe the generic meets their needs well, yeah, have a generic system as a fallback.
As for your arguments based on individual applications of a template (which I maintain are irrelevant to this discussion) and your particular desires about what you want to see, that should be brought up with the project and discussed. For instance, I do see merit in some of your arguments about the ordering of the fields - perhaps that could be revisited. However the fundamental "we know best" attitude towards other societies and cultures and the *refusal* to discuss and the immediate assumption of bad faith coming from some Wikipedians (usually obsessed with some standard or other which readers do not give a stuff about) is really, really entrenched and I think as a Wikipedian it is important to challenge that. It should be for all, not the elite. If you want to travel to another country and you go around speaking to everyone in the Queen's English and correcting people, you will not get very far, even in an English speaking country. Same applies here. Orderinchaos 20:04, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and as an aside how do you propose your pin map model would work to suburbs in cities which I believe constitute almost half the applications of the current template? They'd all cluster around tiny points at the major city locations with no distinction between them. (And you still haven't answered the issue about the border table which links different suburbs together which is absent from the generic - I know for a fact the non-editing readers use such features heavily, as I've discussed it with colleagues.) I don't see what's wrong with clicking on the coords at the top right and then clicking on a map of one's choice. What Wiki can do is vastly inferior in quality to what the listed services on geohack can do. Orderinchaos 20:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Amateur psychology like "I think you just feel a little bit like I'm invading your turf so to speak because you have put time and energy into adding your templates to the articles" doesn't help and indeed is flat wrong. There is opposition to your proposal because it proposes that we replace a purpose built template that works well with a generic template that will not work as well and the only reason given is that "everywhere else uses it". This is not convincing at all. You seem determined to see all opposition from Australians to your proposal as based on nationalism, it is not. -- Mattinbgn\talk 21:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why people "don't discuss" is because they get this kind of inflamed rather passionate response that because they are not Australian they have no right to desire to see a pushpin map to see where it actually is.. I think you'd find that more "readers" would like a map showing where in Australia the place is than you might think. As I said if you actually had pin maps within your templates for each town article I wouldn't be so concerned. For suburbs of a city obviously a national locator wouldn't be needed you should just add whatever local map it is for location in city area. I am talking about town articles not suburbs. Himalayan 20:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Echuca doesn't have a pushpin map simply because nobody has entered the required information in the infobox. That's a problem that can exist in all templates, including the one that you're proposing. It's possible to use a whole Australia map in the infobox, which you'd know if you bothered to look at the template instructions, but it's not necessary. Australia isn't like the USA. We only have six states and two major territories. If you really want to push the "I want to be able to glance at that infobox and know exactly where in Australia it is" argument with any credibility, show me in the Lincoln, Nebraska article, which uses {{Infobox settlement}}, exactly where in the US Lincoln is. If you really want to know where in Australia Melbourne is, just click on the Victoria link at the top of the infobox (I notice that your infobox doesn't have one of those) and you'll see where Victoria is in Australia. Don't assume that everyone will want to see the same information as you. Different people are going to want to see different things. Some people would rather see where in Victoria Melbourne is. The practicalities are that you simply can't show everything that everyone wants in an infobox. That said, what is in {{Infobox Australian Place}} is either there through consensus or because somebody wanted it and there was room. As it stands though, even the existing, consensus built infobox is much larger than the prose in many of our stubs.[2][3] --AussieLegend (talk) 20:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep This infobox has been developed with the peculiarities of Australian localities in mind. Why should editors be forced to use a compromise version rather than a special purpose template that is bith simple to use and flexible? The nominator's comment "It will be interesting to see how many people who oppose are not members of WP:Australia ..." makes his/her later comment "The reason why people 'don't discuss' is because they get this kind of inflamed rather passionate response" rather ironic, don't you think? -- Mattinbgn\talk 20:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yep I totally agree with you on United States. Most of them have local county locators, making it initially difficult for anybody outside the area to know where that county is in the state, let alone the country. They should definately at least have state locators, something shoul dbe done about that... Himalayan 20:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Of course, you haven't addressed any of the reasons given above as to why the standard template is not as suitable for the peculiarities of Australian localities. Merely asserting "absolutely no reason to deviate from standard settlement infobox layout and behaviour" does not make that statement factual. Imposing a North American model where it does not fit on the basis of "standardisation" (or should that be "standardization) does nothing to improve the encyclopedia and indeed will weaken the currently strong coverage of Australian localities. -- Mattinbgn\talk 21:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you guys always have to turn everything into a competition? I've lost count now how this nomination apparently seems to be a clash between Aussie and "North American" cultures rather than simply a good faith neutral attempt to get some consistency all across wikipedia. I am not a North American and neither do I have this obsession or will to impose "American values" over Australia. It is simply for technical and consistency reasons I have nominated this template regardless of national ideas of cultures. If somebody turns up here who is not from Australia or the project and doesn't share a biased way of looking at things and genuinely believes that the current Australian place template is far superior to a standardised template I might be more inclined to take note. As it is this nomination (and the way it was reported on the Aussie noticeboard has been as if I am somehow trying to steal your pride rather than having good intentions). More and more project members will continue to turn up to protect their property rather than trying to see things from a neutral perspective. So far, I don't think any AU member has at least acknowledged that the current infobox could be improved or that other people might see things differently even if it is kept in the end. You;ve said that people have different views but you so far have dismissed my concerns as completely redundant. This was exactly the response I had anticipated and why I felt I couldn't confront your project head on as I'd face an onslaught of protectionism. Himalayan 21:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No one has said anything about "American values" nor is it a culture thing. Simply put, the peculiarities of Australian settlements are best dealt with at a local level and trying to use an ill-fitting bloated template (that may be fine for the US) will not work as well as the current arrangement. If there are specific problems with IAP, raise them there and they will be fixed. If there are actually any benefits to standardisation, point them out. Standardisation for its own sake is not always the best outcome. I think IAP works better in an Australian context than IS and that is why I oppose standardisation. Your passive-aggressive tactic of painting opposition to your proposal as "protectionism" or "local pride" is risible and hardly worth responding to. -- Mattinbgn\talk 03:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Mattinbgn. It's a philosophical difference - i.e. I think "one size fits all" does not work, and while that has particular implications for Australia, it also has particular implications for many places and many of those have similarly resolved their issues with the standard by adopting their own schema. I mean how do you represent for example the difference between a place where what family the town's people come from is actually a key factor in that society, or one where the town has an ancient castle, once had its own prince and was established before 1000, and somewhere like Dalyellup which was created on the whim of a development company this decade? Simple - each should have its own solution, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as the result is readable and meaningful information is conveyed to the reader. Orderinchaos 03:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Admin, please take note that above IP editor was blocked for disrupting in related discussions on this topic on the other pages. --[[::User:Sb617|Sb617]] (talk · contribs) 08:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, per numerous arguments above - the template is specific to the needs of the Australian context -- Ishel99 (talk) 01:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It is quite clear that there is a wider push at Template talk:Infobox settlement to work for the deletion of all regional locality infoboxes and their replacement with {{Infobox settlement}}. There does not seem to have been any wider discussion to see if such standardis(z)ation is actually supported by consensus or indeed if it is actually desirable to replace simple templates that work with an overly large, general purpose template that attempts to try and do too much and is not user friendly. The nominator, quite misleadingly, did not mention this goal in his/her deletion rationale, instead cherry-picking supposed faults with the template. (of course, a similar laundry list of "faults" can be raised for {{infobox settlement}} should one wish. I suggest closing this discussion (and the other regional infobox settlement discussions) and creating a general discussion at the Village Pump to determine consensus on moving to a single infobox for settlements. This process of picking infoboxes off one at a time will not see a consistent outcome at the end. If there is consensus on moving to a single template, then an orderly process to do that can be arranged. -- Mattinbgn\talk 01:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Shiftchange, Lankiveil, Orderinchaos and Mattingbgn. --[[::User:Sb617|Sb617]] (talk · contribs) 01:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep How ridiculous. Aaroncrick (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This template was the work of hundreds of hours by more than a dozen active contributors, myself included, and the merging of more than 14 different templates used beforehand. This template is the standard template for Australian places, and its usage is in the realm of 10,000 articles. It's deletion would be totally ridiculous. --TheJosh (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Does the nominator or any of the other supporters of deletion have an actual plan of what to do if this template is deleted? Once the template is removed from the over 6,000 articles, then what? Wouldn't it be better to determine consensus on a move first, organise an orderly migration if one is needed and only then arrange for a deletion of a unused template? I know it might actually mean working with regional-focused editors rather than simply imposing one's will, but you might actually get a better result. This nomination (along with the others such as Austria) has been poorly thought out and is best speedily closed and discussion on the desirability of a move taken elsewhere. -- Mattinbgn\talk 02:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: It works for Australian editors, who are the only people ever likely to implement it in Australian articles.--Grahame (talk) 02:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am seeking wider discussion on the desirability of standardisation at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Standardisation on Infobox settlement. -- Mattinbgn\talk 03:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep no valid reason for deletion WP:IDONTLIKE, please link the suggest replacment template I'm presuming its {{Infobox settlement}} which seams overly complicated to point of being unusable to the average editor Gnangarra 03:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep There was no attempt at even a cursory analysis of how the Australia-specific parameters would be respected in any merge into the complex Infobox Settlement. The TfD does not respect the consensus and history as developed through WP:AUS. A classic case of WP:IFITAINTBROKE. Dl2000 (talk) 04:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I notice the majority of the "keep" rationale here is we like it, it's bullying, get off our lawn, that's three hours of my life I won't get back, etc. "No valid reason for deletion" is not a valid arguement for retaining the status quo either. It also happens to be patently false, since according to WP:DP "redundant template" is a valid reason for deletion. I might go so far as to say that the only "bullying" going on here is in the weight of numbers bringing forward these non-arguments, unless those arguing in favour of the template are prepared to prove their assertion that "no valud reason" has been presented. {{infobox settlement}} is extensible so long as there is no physical limit on the number of parameters a template may take. Can anyone identify a specific feature not present in {{infobox settlement}} that can't be added to it? Usability is a non-issue - a WikiProject $Wherever page explaining "This is how you do it for places in $Wherever" fixes that. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 04:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"No valid reason for deletion" is in fact a valid ground for opposing a deletion nomination - there must be a reason to delete put forward in order for deletion to be justified. As you say, redundancy is one of the grounds, but none of those coming here from the GEO project have actually demonstrated that the template is redundant to their own. Nor has even one of them suggested a plan to move forward. Very very poor change management. Orderinchaos 04:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"No valid reason for deletion" is not in fact a valid ground for opposiong a deletion nomination. That you believe no valid reason has been proposed (patently false, btw), does not excuse you from providing a valid reason of your own. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 05:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and the border boxes in suburb articles are something which would not be easily addable to it. The funny thing is if you did, you'd be adding it only for the Australian case as only two other nations have the same concept of "suburb" as we do, and neither of them do it the same way. Another question worth asking, too, is why a 13k streamlined template should be replaced by a 37k gorilla of one - not everyone in the world has ultra-fast cable. Orderinchaos 04:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Of course it hasn't yet been demonstrated that the template 'is redundant. The TfD nomination skipped that part, focusing instead on supposed faults. There are perfectly valid reasons to prefer special-purpose regional templates and the proponents of standardisation haven't given any reason as to why standardisation is preferred (apparantely it is self-evident). I will ask you the same questions I asked above: What is the plan if and when this template is deleted? Wouldn't it be better to arrange any needed migration before deletion? -- Mattinbgn\talk 04:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is prima facie evidence of redundancy - namely that there exist two templates fulfilling the same function. Also, please identify the individual whose suggested course of actuon consists entirely of the simgle step "administrator presses 'delete' button". 81.111.114.131 (talk) 05:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of course, simply ignoring the fact that IAP does different things than IS does not make that fact go away. What are the benefits on standardising and using a general purpose template when the specific template does the job better at present. Give me a reason to support a migration, please. -- Mattinbgn\talk 05:18, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Matt's question is crucial here. Usually when a template is successfully voted for deletion, a bot goes through and removes it, by deleting transclusions, or by substituting transclusions, or by replacing transclusions with some other template. In this case neither deleting nor substituting are on the table. And as far as I can tell, replacing cannot be done by bot, or at least it cannot be done by bot without first establishing community consensus on how it should be done. Ultimately, a group of volunteers will have to sit down, discuss the issue, figure out the best way forward, and implement a plan; all of which could have been done without this nomination. As far as I can tell, this nomination is goal-less. It has no potential to achieve anything at all except to piss people off. Hesperian 05:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete redundant template. Consistency is best for readers and editors alike. hmwitht 05:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Clarification: I was not previously involved until this discussion, where I voiced my opinion because I saw it advertised elsewhere. I have no huge preference either way, but I'd prefer a standard template. I don't see why Australia cities are so different from every other country's cities. hmwitht 07:09, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment You seem to have made the same assumption as the nominator. The template is called {{Infobox Australian Place}}, not {{Infobox Australian City}} for good reason. It isn't limited to just cities. It caters for suburbs, localities, towns, cities, Local Government Areas and even entire regions. There's also an option for none of the above. In doing so it provides automatic categorisation and linking based on the data contained in certain fields, a locator map that the nominator "missed", automatic calculation of certain things such as population density, automatic metric-imperial conversion (since Australia got rid of, theoretically at least, the imperial system years ago there's no conversion the other way - no rods, poles perches or chains here) and a neat little map that shows surrounding cities, towns, suburbs etc, depending on what type of place the infobox has been selected for. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep: the template is a standard for Australian articles, being tailored to Australian conditions, and with Australia-specific functionality. It is very widely used, so that deletion would cause utter chaos, as noted above. – Radagast3 (talk) 06:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This seems like a Deletionism vs.Inclusionism issue and is not worth the worry. I think it is up to those who wish to delete to do the work of conversion to what ever is an alternative. There are currently 6,625 pages in the main space that transclude this template. –droll [chat] 06:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I tried to implement an instance of this template for the featured article Hamersley, Western Australia and the results are far from impressive.
    1. Everything had to be manually entered. Most of our data people are not expert with the technology and we *already* have issues with people entering incorrect data in respective fields. It took me ages to key in all the info including manual links to parameters and I have an IT background and am a Wiki editor of 3.5 years standing - how would a newbie handle this? The IAP template contains a fair bit of "intelligence" to reduce the need for this and is designed for ease of use by any editor, not just the elite programmers. I can fire up an IAP instance in under a minute, or if using a database such as Access can mass-generate a heap of them.
    2. Multiple entries are not possible except entering lists of things separated by commas or br's. Our editors should not have to be programmers. Also the distances have to be manually coded, including the nbsp's and converts and the works. IAP does this automatically.
    3. It is unsightly and large by comparison.
    4. The code is far from intuitive and the directions for using it are poor. It would be difficult to modify once implemented, especially if one has to manage several thousand of them.
    5. There is a map which is completely useless in the "standard" one - Hamersley is only 14 km from Perth and this is not reflected in the map.
    6. We completely lose the information about surrounding suburbs.
    7. Coordinate information has to be entered twice; once for the template and the other in a separate "coord" declaration. This means that the link to geohack is not automatic from the coordinate entry in Infobox Settlement (which incidentally does not take decimal input, which reduces precision and also makes life difficult for those getting the data from Google Maps or the Gazetteer of Australia) IAP handles this internally.
Editors seriously proposing a migration should think about the more than 2,500 instances which relate to suburbs, and think about whether what they are offering is actually better in any way. It does not look good, it ups the usability barrier and introduces considerable scope for error, and it lacks key features of the Australian template. Orderinchaos 07:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Acadfrcat

Template:Acadfrcat (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused. The category that it includes doesn't use numbers as sorting. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 17:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Prettytable95

Template:Prettytable95 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Prettytable100center (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Deprecated with class="wikitable". Unused. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 15:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Everybody Hates Chris

Template:Everybody Hates Chris (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This navbox mainly links to 3 articles that are already well linked to each other. For the second line of the navbox: There is a consensus not to connect actor because they appeared to the same show, specially when the show is over! Magioladitis (talk) 13:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox of BD districts

Template:Infobox of BD districts (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Template such for a several Bangladeshi districts. Should be converted to standard Infobox settlement per the upazila previous nomination. The only good thing is the map showing districts, ideally we need specific maps highlighting the actual district location..

Mmm, what I'll do is create us a full set of district locator maps.... There you go, took me a while but we now have 64 locator maps of all the districts. I've converted Bagerhat District as an example. Himalayan 13:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox City in Afghanistan

Template:Infobox City in Afghanistan (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Barely used in many articles anymore. Should be replaced with the standard Template:Infobox settlement. Himalayan 12:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Poole Town FC Squad

Template:Poole Town FC Squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Template not being used. Unlikely ever to be used. Unlikely to be beneficial if used as this list is probably only ever going to be of interest to one article. DanielRigal (talk) 11:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Town AT

Template:Infobox Town AT (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

The template is in German! Meaning we have several thousand articles maybe with German text in. I understand they were copied from German wikipedia which was great as a start, now I feel it is time they were converted to english and to a standard Template:Infobox settlement. Not to mention that the map shouldn't be the same size as the coat of arms and it uses a big red pin so in effect the locator marks like a 60 mile radius!! Himalayan 10:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep No actual reason for deletion given. The nominator's comments apply to many useful templates (for example the railway ones which are used all over the place). I don't see why the fields (non-visible) being in a different language, so long as the documentation correctly explains it, is a problem. The greatest number of users of this template will likely be Germanic-speaking anyway as, despite contributing in English, their local knowledge and ability to access sources in that language would be essential to improving articles and details (English language sources are often deficient for European topics). If it presents a particular problem to the nominator, it would not be hard to decide upon an appropriate translation of the template fields and then get a bot to go over all instances. It appears to be a useful template that meets local circumstances far better than the generic. Orderinchaos 19:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mmm. Would you really be commenting here if I hadn't have nominated "your" Aussie template too?...This is english wikipedia. There is absolutely no justification for keeping German text on english wikipedia, sorry. Himalayan 20:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Perhaps you should try to Assume Good Faith a bit more. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • If it works, use it. If I am coding up an Austrian town, I'll use the Austrian template. If I don't quite understand the terms used (and they seem pretty intuitive anyway so that is unlikely), I'll look at whatever documentation is available to work out how to do so. It's back end coding, it doesn't appear to the user (so is not "German text on Wikipedia"), and it probably makes it easier for those who actually *know the language and can read the sources* (i.e. Austrians, people from neighbouring countries, expatriates or students/workers/migrants living in Austria) to add content - which I fully support. Orderinchaos 03:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete in favour of {{infobox settlement}}. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 20:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep The template isn't in German, it's bilingual, allowing easy cut-and-paste from the German Wikipedia and perfectly normal editing by any non-German-speaking editor. If someone wants to make it so that the template itself transcludes Template:Infobox settlement then that would be a useful change, but it seems like a particularly foolish idea to delete a template that's used on nearly 2500 pages when it makes perfect sense to have an Austrian-specific template (just as there are French-, German- and British-specific templates) that make it easier to ensure that Template:Infobox settlement is consistently implemented across a nation. If you have a problem with the German arguments, I'm sure you can use AutoWikiBrowser to search and replace them to the English-language equivalents, but deleting the template is something of a sledgehammer for that walnut. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep A bullying attempt to force conformity on a North American standard that does not apply here. Attempting to make square pegs fit round holes is futile. Passive aggressive comments like "Mmm. Would you really be commenting here if I hadn't have nominated "your" Aussie template too?" don't really help either. Address comments on their merits, not what you feel their underlying basis to be. Cherry-picking the Australian and Austrian templates while leaving {{infobox UK place}}, {{Infobox French commune}} etc. alone smacks of trying to pick off the easy targets and then claim precedent to get rid of the rest. -- Mattinbgn\talk 23:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I guess AGF applies both ways and the nominator would be best advised to keep this in mind as well. I suggest Speedy Keep as the way forward because this method of cherry-picking individual cases is a poor and divisive way of assessing consensus for these nation-specific infoboxes. My keep rationale is clear (and your failure to understand it, wilful). The nation-specific infoboxes better reflect the nation-specific circumstances they have been created to deal with. A single infobox (designed to reflect North American circumstances) is too large and unwieldy to allow for simple use everywhere. Regional variation is best dealt with in a manner similar to WP:ENGVAR rather than a bullying, crash through approach to standardis(z)e on the US model. Believe it or not, things really are different in the rest of the world and a "one size fits all model" does not always work. -- Mattinbgn\talk 00:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I think the nominator is being rather petty about the size of the locator dot. These things can be changed. It's also rather hypocritical given that one of his complaints about {{Infobox Australian Place}} is that its locator map should be of the whole country rather than individual states. If changes were implemented to suit his desires then the Australian dot would cover a much larger area than the Austrian dot does now. While he argues for standardisation, there's not a lot of it in his nominations and the complaints that he uses in an attempt to justify deletion. As for the size of the coat of arms, compare the size of the seal of Lincoln, Nebraska, which uses {{Infobox settlement}}, to the state map. I don't really see an issue with size in either template but if there is a real concern about the size of the coat of arms, I'm sure it can be changed. I must admit, I'm rather concerned at the weak excuses the nominator is using in his crusade to get the same bulky template jammed into as many articles as possible, when much smaller, purpose-designed templates are doing an excellent job. This template seems to be one of those. Having examined the template code, I don't see any real issue with translating the field names into English if that's really necessary. As the instructions are bilingual there is no problem with the template as it stands and the translation seems like a lot of effort for very little outcome, although not as much effort as replacing the template. Since there seems to be no real, justifiable reason for standardising for standardising's sake, (many years in project management taught me that is very rarely a good thing), I have to vote keep. --AussieLegend (talk) 00:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Deprecate in favour of {{infobox settlement}}. Merge in any extra parameters. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 01:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Mattingbn. This somewhat is suspect of bullying tactics to force a "standard" template without discussion with the involved wikiprojects and countries involved. --[[::User:Sb617|Sb617]] (talk · contribs) 01:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Mattingbn. Aaroncrick (talk) 02:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I notice the keep comments here tend to focus on two statements. One is "one size does not fit all". The proposer of that viewpoint may be surprised to find out thanks to named parameters to a template being optional, and no limitation on the number of parameters a template may know about (there may be one on the number actually passed, but we don't seem to have hit it yet), in this case one size does indeed fit all. The other statement is that there has been "no valid reason" for deletion or deprecation. I would ask that someone advancing this statement prove its truth. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 04:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment' No, replacing an easy to use streamlined template with a bloated monstrosity of a template attempting to be all things to all people does not equate to "one size fits all". The onus is on the self-appointed standardisation committee to demonstrate that this standardisation is actually useful and desirable. Merely stating "redundant" before actually assessing if it actually is redundant (let alone actually coming to some consensus with the users of the template about what the issues are) is not a valid argument to delete. This short sighted attempt to push through with a standardisation program that does not have demonstrated support from the wider community is doomed to failure unless you and your fellow group of standardisers tone down the arrogance and demonstrate some good-faith willingness to discuss the issues with the wider community. -- Mattinbgn\talk 05:09, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please cease and desist your bullying. There is prima facie evidence of redundancy. This is a valid reason to propose the template is deprecated and deleted (it says so at the top of WP:TFD and WP:DP). Evidently the nominator feels that this alone demonstrates consensus not to retain redundant templates in the article space. Migration is inherent in the execution of template deletion. Your repeated attacks, circular arguments and deliberate misrepresentations are fast becoming disruptive. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 05:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep WP:IDONTLIKE isnt a valid reason, apparently this is one of many nominations suggest the nominator work with the community at large rather than pushing changes thru TFD. Gnangarra 04:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please cite a single comment to this TfD whose reasoning is "I don't like it". 81.111.114.131 (talk) 05:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Very easy - the nomination statement. 1 = I don't like it, it has German in it failing to mention it's only in the back end and each and every term is bilingual! For a German-speaking location with German-speaking editors! Heavens! "now I feel it is time they were converted to english" - Yes, those damn Austrians, they should just, you know, get with the times and adapt. 2 = Comments about maps and coats of arms. Oh dear, they're showing signs of *shock horror* individual thought! Can't have that on Wiki. What would we have next? OK, so I'm being sarcastic for humorous purposes, but the entire nom is an IDONTLIKEIT without any reason given to delete and any serious proposal for moving forward besides criticising perfectly good faith people from another culture. Orderinchaos 05:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment How about the nomination statement for a start. "I feel it is time they were converted to english and to a standard Template:Infobox settlement." No reason actually given, apparently it is self-evident.
  • Speedy close as unactionable. The only sensible way to handle this is to get consensus to migrate, then migrate, then delete the template. This nomination is upside-down. Hesperian 06:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per User:Orderinchaos ("one size fits all" does not work) with which I agree regardless of my nationality or ethnic persuasion. Donama (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Intro-fringe

Template:Intro-fringe (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This template states: The neutrality of this introduction is disputed with the claim that a fringe or minority topic or view has been given too much space or attention. However the {{POV-intro}} template already states: The neutrality of this introduction is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. It seems that this template is redundant. Whether the POV is fringe or just biased is irrelevant.

The Four Deuces (talk) 02:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Wiki User

Template:Infobox Wiki User (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Apparently an unused template. Completely orphaned. Created in 2007, editor has not edited since and appears it has been orphaned all that time. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 03:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Adelitas Way

Template:Adelitas Way (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Currently there is nothing to navigate here. All links are already present in each article. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 02:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Actors in Yasmin Ahmad films

Template:Actors in Yasmin Ahmad films (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

A navbox with actors that participated in films from X director? I don't think this is something good. Anyway, most of links are red. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 02:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:AZocc

Template:AZocc (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:AZnote (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

WP:NODISCLAIMERS. If there is not reliable source, then there shouldn't be an article. Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 01:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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