Talk:Michael Jackson

Article size

I hate to drag this up again, but the article size has now hit 130kb, and going through the edit history is like watching a snail. Since MJ's death the article has grown and acquired some cruft that could be removed. The article needs to be at least 10% smaller than it currently is.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with editing an article just because it's too big. I do agree, however, that 'cruft' can be removed and, where appropriate, sub articles created but if neither of these succeed in knocking 10% off the article size I'm not sure it's such a big deal. RaseaC (talk) 12:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

There are some serious WP:SIZE issues developing at the moment and the article needs shortening for both technical and editorial reasons. For many computers and connections article size over 100kb is undesirable.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

And that's all very well, which is why I have no objection to it if it can be done. RaseaC (talk) 12:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

There appears to be reluctance to open dicussion about what information can be removed and what is not relevant to the article. For example the information about A Place with No Name could be replaced with a see main article tag considering that there is already a sizeable article about the leaked song. (Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC))

Im getting a little bit frustrated with the progress regarding the size of this article. Wikipedia is very clear about the rules for sizes of article and it is no reflection of the content of the article. Wikipedia should be accessible for all and those running slower computers or slower access to the internet should not be hindered from accessing the article simply because it is too large. We can do this the nice easy way which is to get loads of editors involved and have an open discussion or we can do it the more difficult time-consuming way and bring the article to the attention of administrators or even the wikipedia board about splitting the article up or removing excessive details. I still stand by my previous suggestion that the article should be split into Michael Jackson and The Music of Michael Jackson. either way something should be done to address this issue even if it means nominating this article as a new wikipedia project for special attention. (Lil-unique1 (talk) 00:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC))

OK, let's get this started then. Assuming there is a reason for trimming the article I would agree that we could have an article for MJ, the person, then a separate one for his music. All of the content currently on the article would fit into either of these, with films/controversies etc. in the MJ article, then just Jackson 5/solo work info on his music article. I have no interest in putting any effort into creating either of these articles, but I agree that, yes, it should probably be done. RaseaC (talk) 00:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to split a biography into two different articles, simply reduce the amount of excessive detail already present or transfer it to established main articles (ex: controversies or albums). This might be a good time to go through a WP:PR or a WP:FAR. The hysteria of Jackson's death has subsided and the number of editor wishing to cram up-to-the-minute details are gone or have concentrated their efforts on the main Death of Michael Jackson article. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 00:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

the only reason i suggested splitting the two articles is that even after much fo the cruft or excess detail has been removed, there is still a strong case that the article will exceed 100kb at which point wikipedia suggests that the article should be split into smaller more specific articles. the fact is that MJ has both notable musical and personal achievements/controversies which could warrant to seperate pages. It could certainly make the article/subject easier to navigate as in my opinion people visit this page to either learn about the person or the music. This existing page could become a general summary and contain the links to his albums, discography, awards, family members etc.

When this article originally passed FAC it was 112 kilobytes long. It won't take that big of an effort to get it down to 100kb exactly. His music is already easy enough to navigate, considering his albums, singles, main discography and video pages and the same goes for the personal controversies which have their own articles as well. All it takes is transferring excess detail to established articles. It a matter of cutting and pasting and copy-editing whats left for grammar. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 01:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I added to the article an Awards section and Tours section that link to the main articles so they don't add more size. I think that these deserve their own headings instead of being in the see also, as is for other artists. I have to say though, if last year when the article passed FA it was 112kb then there is really no way that it will go back down to 100. Considering news of the tour and his death and posthumous projects since that, the article is really only going to get larger with the more projects released in the future. Having read the article many times, I don't think that there are a lot of things that can be taken out without leaving the reader wanting, excluding some extra fluff that will not really reduce the size. The articles of Madonna and Elvis Presley are of a similar length and their careers have only spanned half of Jackson's, so this article is actually quite concise, but perhaps an AWB scan could reduce it?. GreekStar12 (talk) 07:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I think one way that we could reduce article size is by reducing some of the sources. I've just taken a brief look at some statements (one sentence) have as many as 5 or 6 sources which might not be necessary. Furthermore there is information in the intro which is duplicated from other sections. I think a lot of info could easily be removed, but i am personally reluctant to do it without discussing it. (Lil-unique1 (talk) 01:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC))

Conversion to islam

hi , i just added the part when he went to Bahrain, as over there he converted to islam.

regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoo7a (talk • contribs) 07:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

People seldom read what the FAQ section says about this issue, so here it is below:

• Q: Should the article mention reports that Michael Jackson was Muslim?
• A: No. The article should not mention reports that Michael Jackson was Muslim. Jackson had not publicly spoken about his exact religion in a number of years and only spoke about spirituality in general terms. The specific reports of a conversion ceremony for Jackson have been denied by his New York lawyer Londell McMillan.[5] They were also denied by Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens[6] and Dawud Wharnsby[7] who were allegedly present at the ceremony. Without further details from his family or representatives, it will not be included in the article.

This is also discussed extensively in the talk page archive, which has a search box.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Different Picture?

I was just wondering if it would be better to use a more recent picture of Michael. This picture is from 1984, but surely a picture taken around the time of death would be more suitable. 90.200.115.43 (talk) 10:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This is another topic covered by the FAQ section at the top of the page. A copyrighted image is unsuitable for the infobox due to WP:NFCC requirements.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't get it, we do need a new picture. I mean the man wasn't even black anymore. We need a picture his invincable tour or somthing. It's Me :) O Yea its me.. Washington95 (talk) 16:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a longstanding request for any recent copyright free pictures of Michael Jackson to be donated to Wikipedia. The issue of how Wikipedia articles provide images of celebrities (which is not at all easy due to WP:NFCC) was discussed in this New York Times article. Incidentally, Halle Berry's infobox image has been changed since the NYT article was published in July 2009.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand I'm trying to argue or be mean. I just don't understand why people have to be so tight. I mean I think a Picture is a picture. Why make it so other people can't use it? I find it "stupid".It's Me :) O Yea its me.. Washington95 (talk) 20:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The record sales issue (again)

Micheal Jackson

{{editsemiprotected}} Micheal Jackon has sold over 9 million albums since his passing that has not been noted on his wikipedia page. on july 16th 2009 mtv said that micheal had sold an estimated 9 million albums since his passing. its not included on his page please include it here the link. www.mtv.com/news/articles/1616358/.../jackson_michael.jhtml -

Micheal jackson has sold over 750 million records not between 350 million - 750 million as it states on his page. every page under google when you put in this line( how many albums has micheal jackson sold worldwide) .on November 14th 2006 Guiness book of records also gave micheal jackson the most successful entertainer of all time award partly because he sold 750 records. you can look it up yourselves. www.worldrecordsacademy.org/.../most_successful_entertainer_of_all_time- Michael_Jackson_sets_world_record%20_90258.htm

Please make the changes as it is the facts.

They say things come in threes, and since we have already had the conversion to Islam and infobox picture issue today, this completes the set. The "facts" about Michael Jackson's record sales are all estimates by various sources. The article has already been fully protected due to edit warring by people who failed to see this. The wording in the lead represents WP:CONSENSUS.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There is somethinig very, very strange going on with the new figure in Wikpedia no way can 750 million record sales drop by approx half without A LOT of detail expanation…look into this. Very fishy, indeed!!

cant we use both article which claim 350 million and the other which cliam 750 million instead of the wsj article beacuase does'nt it say on wikipedia articles must come either from highly regarded news services or highly regarded music related sources such as MTV, VH1, articles published by major record companies such as Sony Music or Universal Music are acceptable as well

these are much more reliable than the wsj which does not even say anything about 350 million sales for this person it does not even calculate singles, videograph,Compilation albums it only calculates studio albums such Off the Wall , Thriller, Bad , Dangerous ,HIStory ,Invincible not all of him albums —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clifffrichard (talk • contribs) 00:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

@Cliffrichard: please avoid clogging up the talk page by saying the same things over and over again. The consensus is not to argue over the tired old 300-750 million records dispute. The Wall Street Journal article here looks at how this long running saga came about.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

More about music

So I have been looking at this artical. I've been seeing that alot of it is about his personal life. Alot of arguments on the talk page about his personal life. The man shouldn't be rememberd for his personal life, but for the music he has wrote/sung. I know that there is alot about music in the page now. But I think it should be talked about a little more.--It's Me :) O Yea its me.. Washington95 (talk) 20:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

michael jackson voice

Michael Jackson natural vocal voice is higher than that of a tenor beacause i read a article which says before he breaks off into falsetto, he goes from two E's below middle C, to two B's above middle C, or 44 notes. Essentially, Michael is able to reach octaves that other tenors cannot attain with their natural voice

also in the article his voice is higher than that of justin timberlake who is listed as a countertenor http://books.google.ca/books?ct=result&id=lJS4EArRBwoC&dq=Rock-N-Roll+Gold+Rush+mariah+carey&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&sig=ACfU3U0fbLW248NcvjE6rRshbjsWieA1hg&q=diana+ross#v=snippet&q=countertenor&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clifffrichard (talk • contribs) 01:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox image

I don't want to set off any edit warring here, so can I ask what other users' thoughts are about the current infobox image (added here)? Is it a) better than the 1984 White House image? and b) is its sourcing as copyright free watertight? The fact that it is on Commons is not necessarily a guide. Personally, I prefer the 1984 White House image.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The image is on Commons here and has some rights reserved with a copyright (in the bottom right hand corner of the picture) attributed to Drew Cohen. I've put back the 1984 picture for the time being.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

What aboout this one?

http://www.broadwayworld.com/columnpic/michael_jackson.jpg

It's Me :) O Yea its me.. Washington95 (talk) 17:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Nice image, but is it copyrighted? The consensus is that only a free image can be used in the infobox due to WP:NFCC#1. Images found on Google etc are almost certainly copyrighted and cannot be used.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:18, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jackson tribute concert in Vienna

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/sep/08/michael-jackson-tribute-concert-lineup

http://www.nme.com/news/michael-jackson/47192

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8243898.stm

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/music/a176375/jackson-tribute-lineup-announced.html