Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

See also
Wikipedia talk:Writing better articles
Wikipedia talk:Article titles
Wikipedia talk:Quotations
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

Spacing at the end of a sentence

I believe that the current, simple version of spacing at the end of a sentence, will probably have to do. There are too many people out there with opinions, tastes, and preferences on this subject. The edit warring was started by people that, I believe, did not know the facts. The statement that a single space is the current convention is factually correct. Here's a couple of references to help for starters:

You should also delete any extra word spacing before or after punctuation marks. The conventions are: One space follows a sentence-ending punctuation mark (period, question mark, or exclamation point). The Copyeditors Handbook A Guide for Book Publishing and Corporate Communications p. 113.

The usual convention for published works remains one space after each period. APA

But don't believe these - please see Double spacing at the end of sentences for the other 50+ references to support this. Or go pick up any book or magazine published in the last 10 years.

I do agree that the wording "convention for final and published work" may have been not the most applicable, although I wouldn't have used the word "irrelevant." Most applicable to the WP:MOS page would have been the consensus of the other writing style guides: see Double spacing at the end of sentences. However, instead of using that information, people tend to pursue their own preferences, I see.

It doesn't matter. Some people's opinions will override reliable sources, style guides, and incontrovertible evidence. There's no need to edit war. Simply stating that it's irrelevant here is sufficient. Until someone comes in a few months from now and adds that two spaces are the rule. Airborne84 (talk) 20:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I have seen people argue over the number of spaces after the end of a sentence. When it was pointed out that the number of spaces was irrelevant for readers (and I really do think that "irrelevant" is a good word here), they said that it mattered because it changed how things showed up in the edit box. I think it is important for the MoS to say that the number of spaces is a personal preference and that articles need not be consistently spaced in order to avoid arguments over this issue. Consequently I have reverted your revert.

Also, I don't really see any edit warring. Changes, yes, and even a few reverts, but no war yet. What diffs are you thinking of? Ozob (talk) 21:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

No problem. However, if we are going to note your opinion that the number of spaces is a personal preference, then I'll add what the style manuals have to say on it. That cannot be a problem since I suspect that a great deal of the information in the WP:MOS originates from other style guides.

And you're right. "Edit war" was not the best way to put it. Airborne84 (talk) 22:45, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The material taken from the other style guides is not relevant here, as it doesn't affect the appearance of the article anyway. --Trovatore (talk) 22:56, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What's the point of all this? Double spaces are rendered as single anyway... ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 22:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. That's why I suggested (and actually edited) that we drop the note on this subject to its simplest form. "The question of spacing on Wikipedia is irrelevant because double spaces are rendered as single spaces when edits are saved" or something to that effect. If we're going to add extraneous information, style guides are definitely relevant, for the reason I described above. Airborne84 (talk) 23:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Double spaces after periods are old-fashioned but not incorrect, but A d M and Trovatore are right. Because Wikipedia displays either one or two spaces as just one, this isn't really relevant. Are you saying that the MoS should state this so that people don't fight about it? In that case, it would be better to keep the line about dummy edits than to remove it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:17, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

What I was saying is that because it was irrelevant, there's no need to say anything more than that under this section. Anything else is extraneous and pointless. People that want to know more about the subject can just visit Double spacing at the end of sentences. It doesn't need to be explained here. However, I was overruled it seems. Airborne84 (talk) 03:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

My point is that I have seen arguments here on Wikipedia over the question of how many spaces there should be at the end of a sentence. All I'd like for this section are statements that the number of spaces doesn't matter to readers and that it shouldn't matter to editors, either (i.e., don't argue on the talk page that everyone else should use two spaces after a period because of how it shows up in your edit box; I saw someone do that!). I don't want an in-depth discussion of what the right style is, and because of that I think that Airborne84's recent addition [1] is not appropriate here at the MoS (it fits much better at double spacing at the end of sentences). I also don't see it as an all-or-nothing thing; I think it's entirely appropriate to provide guidance on how many spaces to put at the end of a sentence and at the same time to leave out any mention of the received typographic wisdom on this subject. Ozob (talk) 05:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I must be missing something. It sounds like you're saying that "It's appropriate to provide guidance on how many spaces should be used as a writing convention, but we should not consider what writing style guides state on the matter." So we should just put our opinions instead? Is that what you are saying? If so, whose opinion goes in there? Yours? Mine? Please clarify whose opinion should be used. Airborne84 (talk) 08:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, Airborne84, are you asking about what an article should say about this very minor matter, or are you asking what the MoS should say? If the former, so far as it is encyclopedic should be brought up on the talk page of the relevant article; if the latter, then as various people have pointed out above it really doesn't matter as (outside very limited contexts that need not concern us here) browsers treat strings of spaces as individual spaces. -- Hoary (talk) 08:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that. People seem to have missed that I dropped the section down to a simple and brief statement of fact to that exact effect. Others started adding to it, not me. How about:

The number of spaces following the end of a sentence is irrelevant for Wikipedia because web browsers ignore spacing beyond a single space. (See Double spacing at the end of sentences#Web browsers.) Regardless of the number of spaces used in edit boxes, only a single inter-sentence space will appear once edits are saved.

If we're going to add anything extraneous beyond simple statments of fact (e.g. "the number of spaces doesn't matter to readers," which resonates as opinion), then the inclusion of writing style guide "wisdom" is appropriate.

Also, people keep identifying this as a "minor/irrelevant matter," missing the point that this section exists in the first place. People keep asking the question - and getting into arguments about it as described above. It may be minor - but its important to a lot of people. Airborne84 (talk) 08:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, OK. How about

The number of spaces between sentences does not matter because web browsers treat two or more consecutive spaces as one. (See Double spacing at the end of sentences#Web browsers.)

On the other hand

The number of spaces following the end of a sentence is irrelevant for Wikipedia because web browsers ignore the number of spaces. (See Double spacing at the end of sentences#Web browsers.) U.S. and international style guides that use the modern Latin alphabet recommend or stipulate the use of a single space after the terminal punctuation of a sentence while writing and for final written works.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]

does have considerable comic appeal; I'd be rather sorry to see it go. -- Hoary (talk) 09:17, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• I quail at the amount of time and skill that is being poured into this matter. Tony (talk) 09:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

  But to give Airborne his due, he's trying to reduce the silliness that's already there in the "project page". -- Hoary (talk) 14:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Ozob. It's not irrelevant, but it is moot. Because people have been fighting about it, let's keep a line about how the spaces appear the same from the reader's perspective and leave further description to the article on the matter. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

In that case, you agree with me also as I made a change very similar to this yesterday to try to settle the matter. I'll try again. I like Hoary's use above, but prefer "irrelevant" in its use (not the subject) because it "does matter" in a more abstract sense whether one space or two are used. Let's stay away from connotations that imply that. It also should qualify that it's irrelevant "At Wikipedia." Airborne84 (talk) 14:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll hold off on making the change until others weigh in though, since I don't want to keep going around in circles. In brief, we need a short factual statment that avoids any connotation of opinion as to the correctness of either convention in general, or whether its use either way "matters to people." E.g.

At Wikipedia, the number of spaces used between sentences is irrelevant because web browsers treat two or more consecutive spaces as one. (See Double spacing at the end of sentences#Web browsers.) Airborne84 (talk) 14:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, yes, but MoS is all about Wikipedia so the first two of those words are superfluous. Also, in my idiolect something is (ir)relevant to something. "Doesn't matter" doesn't have this problem. -- Hoary (talk) 14:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow, I feel like this is a huge waste of time. I put my preferred version in the article, and from now on I'm going to ignore this discussion and let everyone else do what they want. Ozob (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The words "On Wikipedia" can be useful because they're a very concise way of saying, "Yes, we acknowledge that this is not a universal for the English language or reasonable people and we humbly require that our own rules be employed on our own site blah blah blah." It goes double here because not all documents render two spaces as one. As for single vs. double, I prefer the word "moot." It's less likely to make people angry than "irrelevant." And it's fun to say. Moot, moot, moot! Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) "moot" means "subject to debate" and would not be an appropriate word in this case, in my opinion. "irrelevant" works for me; and i agree that saying "on Wikipedia" is helpful. which leads me to "On Wikipedia, the number of spaces used between sentences is irrelevant because web browsers treat two or more consecutive spaces as one. (See Double spacing at the end of sentences#Web browsers.)" Sssoul (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

It also means "purely academic, of no practical value," but if you think it would confuse people we can certainly go with your "makes no difference," which also seems unlikely to aggravate fans of either convention. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The conversion of any sequence of space in HTML to a single space in the rendering is part of the HTML specification, so it's not unique to Wikipedia. Anyway, what about "The number of spaces after a sentence typed in the edit box is immaterial, as browsers will automatically convert any sequence of spaces to a single one. Indeed, adding or removing a double space is sometimes used as a dummy edit." ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 16:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not that it's (or isn't in this case) unique to Wikipedia, it's that it's not universal among written materials. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, Sssoul and I agree at least. I think concise is best. However, that has to be balanced with what will satisfy people in the future when they come here to get an answer. Unfortunately, "Number of spaces after a sentence" isn't a link, but I see what you were trying to do anyway A di M. Besides the short, concise, and factual statement that SSSoul and I have proposed (that doesn't introduce connotations of opinion or "correctness"), what else will be necessary to satisfy future visitors to this section? Airborne84 (talk) 17:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I just checked Ozob's change. While I might have worded it differently, I think it's OK as it stands. There's more than one way to get the point across without incorporating opinion and undesireable connotation, and that's one way. Airborne84 (talk) 17:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

i reckon Darkfrog24 is right that "makes no difference" is a more neutral statement of fact than "is irrelevant". so will this wording do?

The number of spaces following the end of a sentence makes no difference on Wikipedia because web browsers condense any number of spaces to just one (see Double spacing at the end of sentences#Web browsers). Editors may use any spacing style they are comfortable with, and multiple spacing styles may coexist in the same article. Adding or removing a double space is sometimes used as a dummy edit.

the main change from what's currently out there is that i've removed the "however", which doesn't seem apt to me. Sssoul (talk) 21:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. With a contentious issue (or at least strongly debated in the last two days) like this, the preferable way to deal with this would be to discuss before making changes - given the circles we have been running in. I don't prefer "makes no difference" over "irrelevant" or "immaterial" given that "makes no difference" is more ambiguous than the other words, which have clear definitions, but given the qualification of "on Wikipedia," I can handle it. However, I sense us moving along the slippery slope where people keep making adjustments until it is no longer acceptable to all (which is why it's better to discuss this before modifying). If it is to remain like this for now, I'm OK with it. At least, until someone else comes along that is emotionally attached to the double-space use and decides to change the wording to support his/her taste/preference again. Airborne84 (talk) 01:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) either "is immaterial" or "makes no difference" works for me - it's the "however" that doesn't seem apt. i propose changing the current text to:

The number of spaces following the end of a sentence is immaterial on Wikipedia because web browsers condense any number of spaces to just one (see Double spacing at the end of sentences#Web browsers). Editors may use any spacing style they are comfortable with, and multiple spacing styles may coexist in the same article. Adding or removing a double space is sometimes used as a dummy edit.

will that work? Sssoul (talk) 10:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

"Nominal Group" versus "Noun Phrase"

Per clarity, all instances of "nominal group" should be changed to "noun phrase".

There are 2 instances in MOS.174.3.98.236 (talk) 06:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Um ... what "clarity" is this? Nominal group is the far more useful construction. It should not be changed. Tony (talk) 22:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm still struggling to see the difference... Can you give an example of a nominal group which is not a noun phrase, or of a noun phrase which is not a nominal group? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 22:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd say "too late" Tony1. Have a look at the colour of the Nominal Group link.  HWV258.  22:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at the case of the gee in Nominal group... ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 22:47, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. The correct link is: Nominal group (language).  HWV258.  22:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The expression "nominal group" is used in systemic functional grammar. I have not seen evidence that that grammar has gained or is gaining prominence among language teachers or among linguists. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:57, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm more concerned about jargon. Would most Wikipedia editors know what a nominal group is? Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nearly certain that I had not encountered the expression "nominal group" before I encountered it from Tony, and I probably know more linguistic terminology than most Wikipedia editors know. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:54, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It's a standard concept, well accepted and used in several educational jurisdictions in the US, the UK and Australia. You won't understand English grammar until you've read Introduction to functional grammar, MAK Halliday (1975, 2nd ed. 1995, 3rd ed. 2004). Get with it. Tony (talk) 11:36, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, but could you briefly explain in what ways nominal groups differ from noun phrases, for someone who wants to understand the MoS's guidance but can't afford that book or don't have the time to read it? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, the Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language claims that "The terms nominal group and nominal clause mean the same as noun phrase and noun clause." The only clue as to a possible difference between the two I found by googling "noun phrase" "nominal group" was this, which might suggest that a nominal group must have both a head and modifiers, excluding noun phrases with no modifiers ("books", "gold", "they", "John") or no head ("the French", "the grocer's", "the most important of them"). Too bad that "Nominal Group" redirects back to "Noun Phrase" on that site. Is that it? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 17:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

If the older generation learned "noun phrase" and the new generation learned (or are learning) "nominal group" and few people have the interest or time to learn both expressions, then the Manual of Style can accommodate both expressions by using "noun phrase (nominal group)" or "nominal group (noun phrase)". -- Wavelength (talk) 00:19, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Good idea... ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 00:47, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Worked with "full stop." Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Prepositions and ranges again

WP:ENDASH says "Ranges should not mix prepositions and dashes". Does that mean I should change phrases I keep finding like "Burmese War of 1548–49" and "the Red Scare of 1919–20"? If not, are there any prepositions other than "from" and "between" that shouldn't be mixed with dashes? Art LaPella (talk) 03:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It's mainly "of" and "betwee". In your examples, I think the preceding preposition should be removed or the full version given: "Burmese War of 1548 to 1549". Tony (talk) 11:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ranges are expressed as "between X and Y" or as "from Y to Z". In "Burmese War of 1548–49", the preposition "of" is just a preposition which happens to be expressed near the range. It is not a part of the expression of the range. A "logic" which removes that preposition would apparently remove all other prepositions in the same article, and I do not agree with that "logic". The title means "Burmese War of the period from 1548 to 1549" or ""Burmese War of the period between 1548 and 1549". -- Wavelength (talk) 15:29, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The part you've left unsaid, which WP:ENDASH presumably intends to convey, is that ranges should not be written "between X–Y" or "from Y–Z". Perhaps we should use these simpler examples if they make it clearer. PL290 (talk) 15:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I like what your edit has done. The previous text (and, come to think of it, our entire previous discussion) didn't capture the subtle distinction between a preposition used to express a range and a preposition used to introduce a range. Ozob (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

You're right. Tony (talk) 09:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction regarding inline citations

This discussion has been transferred to Wikipedia talk:Footnotes as per #Warring editors on WP:FN

Needed help regarding WP:Logical quotation

An editor and I partly disagree about how to apply WP:Logical quotation, as seen at Talk:Avatar (2009 film)#Punctuation. Other editors at different parts of the site have also interpreted WP:Logical quotation differently, which makes me think that it needs a little rewrite. We need opinions about which one of us is wrong on this matter. And, as I stated, likely a little rewrite of WP:Logical quotation...so that these different interpretations do not happen again. Flyer22 (talk) 02:06, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm on it.—Finell 02:41, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Took a look at your discussion. While it is relatively clear how to handle the quotation in question, I can't tell who was interpreting WP:LQ which way. Could you be clearer about how you and Cosmic were taking the instructions? Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:18, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

My two cents: The question seems to revolve around exactly what the MOS means when it says "quoted material". In this case, James Cameron said something, and our reliable source for what he said is an MTV article that uses TQ (typesetter's quotation, i.e., trailing punctuation always goes inside the quotation marks). As we're acutely aware here, TQ means that the reader (us) is given no information about any trailing punctuation that might actually be part of what was said. The quote attributed by MTV to Cameron ends with a comma before the closing quotation mark in the MTV article — but because the MTV article uses TQ, that trailing comma has nothing to do with what Cameron said. That trailing comma is mechanically part of the surrounding prose of the MTV article. We don't actually know (for sure) whether the quoted words are all of Cameron's sentence, or whether his sentence continued on with more words that MTV did not choose to include in the quote. Flyer22 seems to have construed "quoted material" to mean "material that occurs within quotes in the MTV article", in which case it would include the trailing comma. My understanding is that, because the MTV article uses TQ, the material quoted by MTV is everything between the quotation marks except the trailing comma, the trailing comma being part of the surrounding prose. This is what makes sense to me, because the purpose of LQ is to maximize the accuracy of our reporting of what was said (and in this case we are reporting what Cameron said, not reporting what MTV said). --Pi zero (talk) 23:48, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm with you that, in American punctuation (AKA TQ), the final comma or period is part of the quotation process. However, the tag and citation indicate that Flyer was using a written MTV article and not an audio recording of the interview. If we're deeming the source to be a reliable one, then we're saying that we trust the writer's judgment, at least to the point where we assume that he or she is doing an adequate job of writing things down. If we assume otherwise, then we should tell the editors to find a better source.

"There could have been words left out" isn't an LQ vs AQ/BQ issue. A writer who sees no problem with cutting off half a sentence probably isn't going to see a problem with putting down a period.

With regard to the text of WP:LQ, while I don't agree with its content, but the way it's phrased is pretty darn direct. I suppose we could add examples, but I'd like to be more certain of what problem it is that we're fixing first. I'm sure Flyer can explain. I've also left a note on Cosmic's talk page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I am saying that we must completely trust the MTV writer's judgment on exactly how to represent what Cameron said. Set that alongside the fact that the final comma is (as you so aptly put it) part of the quotation process. The final comma is part of the machinery in the MTV article that surrounds and delimits, but is not part of, the MTV writer's representation of what Cameron said. The MTV writer judged that what Cameron said should be represented by a text string that does not have any final punctuation, and we must respect that judgment. If the MTV writer had wanted to badly enough, they could have used a block quote, which would have allowed them to include trailing punctuation in their representation of what Cameron said; it would have been a lot of trouble for them to go to, and in their shoes I'm sure I would have made the same decision they did (supposing that I was forced to use TQ :-) — but that's as may be. All that really matters for this particular case is that the MTV writer didn't do that, and as a result, the quoted material does not include any trailing punctuation.

Re the phrasing in the MOS: Even if I never had to say another word to explain my position, the number of words I've already expended on it demonstrates that the current phrasing is not a model of lucidity. --Pi zero (talk) 02:06, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that a good writer would use a block quote format on a short quote like this one.

From what I've been able to ascertain, the confusion is not coming from the LQ vs AQ/BQ issue but rather from the issue of whether to treat Cameron's words within the MTV article as a text source or as an audio source. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:10, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Depending on the layout of the material, of course, a block quote for such a short passage would probably not be appropriate, I agree. My point was that under TQ, the fact that a block quote was in fact not used means that the MTV writer was mechanically unable to ascribe any trailing punctuation to Cameron.

As a clarification, how do you see text/audio impacting the question at hand? --Pi zero (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

How I see it affecting the issue at hand? When a Wikipedia editor uses and cites an audio source, then the reader assumes that it is the Wikipedia editor who decided how to punctuate the written version. When a Wikipedia editor uses and cites a text source, then the reader assumes that it is the author/transcriber of that text source who decided how to punctuate it. I would treat sources such as the MTV article as text sources. The most important factor seems to me to be that the interviewer is present to hear the interviewee speak and Wikipedia editor is not. The interviewer's guess is better than the editor's in such a case. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:45, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

But we can also hear/see Cameron speak about this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

This I did not know at the time. I tend to ignore anything that looks like it might be an ad, so I didn't see the video section and assumed you were working solely from the writeup.

I'd say that when a Wikipedia editor is working from an audio source and hears a stop within the quote, then it is right and proper to place the period inside the quotation marks even when using LQ. Removing or ignoring the "uh" is acceptable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

As one of the two editors involved in the original dispute, I'll offer my current take on things: There does seem to be a legitimate question as to whether the goal is faithful representation of Wikipedia's source (MTV) or of MTV's own source (Cameron). If the goal is the former representation, then it would seem that a literary snapshot of the MTV source would include their (apparently) TQ-derived comma. If the goal is the latter representation, then since there's no way to tell if Cameron's original line included either an explicit (written) or an implicit (spoken) comma, the inclusion of a comma within quotes here would be speculative at best, and therefore best avoided. I'd propose that, as a compromise between these two possible goals, one simply remember that quotation always is a potential act of omission (i.e., there's always the possibility that the source--whatever "the source" ultimately is understood to be--contains characters to the left or right of where the quotation marks appear in the new material). Therefore, even if it turns out the the idea is to represent MTV (i.e., to represent the "secondary source" that WP has at hand, rather than to represent the initial speaker's speech), then even though MTV includes a TQ-consistent comma, MTV gives us license to omit that comma because A) the origins of the comma are ambiguous; perhaps they lie with Cameron, perhaps they lie with the TQ rendering of Cameron's words; and B) quotation always is a possible act of omission in the first place. So, maybe WP:LQ could use a line about how to handle ambiguous punctuation (e.g., omit it) that derives from sources-within-sources (i.e., from lines that sources themselves have quoted directly)? In a nutshell, perhaps there is a valid question about whether the Avatar article should quote the comma there. At this point, I agree that it should not. The initial question, however, was whether a period should be placed where the source had put a comma (this was Flyer22's edit to which I initially objected). That, I think, would be far too big a stretch--a copy-editor's version of WP:OR, in fact, because it would ultimately trust neither MTV nor Cameron, but rather the editor who feels that Cameron's thought comes to its conclusion in that spot. Cosmic Latte (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't go so far as to call placing a period there OR, but it is certainly not consistent with LQ. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:45, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Cosmic Latte, I do not get what you mean about stretch or original research. We can watch the video clip and see that Cameron does indeed end his sentence there. Sure, his thoughts about the couples are not finished there, but that sentence is. Unless you feel that his "uh" after it is also a part of that sentence. What I did has nothing to do with not trusting MTV nor Cameron, but rather what I felt WP:Logical quotation is about -- only ending sentence fragments with the punctuations outside of the quotes; this also means that even if the text presents a sentence fragment with the period within the quote, we do not because we are following "logical quotation." All I did was place the "said Cameron" part in the middle and end the sentence with a period because it is a full sentence. I figured that full sentences should always end with the period inside of the quote. But you are saying that because the sentence ended with a comma and "he explained" in the text version...that this means Cameron's sentence could have possibly not been finished? I ask, "How could we possibly know that unless we had audio commentary?" In this case, we do have audio commentary -- a clip -- and it shows that Cameron does end his sentence there. Besides, what if I were to have presented that quote the other way around, with the "Cameron said," part first, and then ended the quote with a period? Would that not be acceptable, simply because the text ends the sentence with a comma and "he explained"? Flyer22 (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

British punctuation consistently treats fragments that way, but LQ does not generally require users to remove punctuation that is present in the original. LQ has its origin for its ability to preserve what's called "literal strings" in computer programming, strings of characters, regardless of their spoken or grammatical meaning. While Pi Zero has pointed out some issues with closing punctuation, if the original quote was "It was interesting. Also, I like cheese," then it is perfectly in compliance with LQ to write "Cameron said that it was 'interesting.' " (British punctuation would have "Cameron said that it was 'interesting'." American punctuation would have "Cameron said that it was 'interesting.' ") Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

It'd be possible, but not very useful. We're not quoting a full sentence but only a piece thereof, so why would said piece contain the sentence-terminating punctuation? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 16:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Six to one, half a dozen to the other. However, if the question is whether LQ requires fragments to be treated the same way that BQ treats them, the answer is that no it doesn't. LQ does not concern itself with the grammatical stop the way British punctuation does, so the editor may decide whether to keep the period or not. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

See, I was not aware of that. I don't get that from reading WP:Logical quotation, especially with it pointing to logical quotation. To me, it is (or rather was) saying follow the British style of having all sentence fragments end with the closing punctuations outside of the quoted material (though I see you recently changed that for better reading, which is why it is likely now a "was"). That is how I would and I am sure still will see most people using WP:Logical quotation around here, and Finell (in a past discussion) said that the period should go outside of the quoted material for any type of sentence fragment. If it has not been British Style vs. American style regarding WP:Logical quotation all this time, then why does that discussion constantly come up here on this talk page? Flyer22 (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

The discussion keeps coming up on the talk page because the LQ rule confuses and annoys people. Outside of computer programming, a lot of people don't even know that LQ exists until they see the Wikipedia MoS. In addition to this, a lot of American writers don't know that any system aside from American punctuation exists until they get to Wikipedia. LQ is very different from what people are taught in schools about good writing and good punctuation. And, in at least one case that I know of (that being myself), being told that we're not allowed to use standard English is real turnoff. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

It's interesting to me that you feel that way. The punctuation I was taught in school always had the opposite effect on me: I thought that it was ridiculous on its face, and I put up with it only because I was forced to. I now use logical quotation exclusively. If Wikipedia were to change its policy and embrace something else, I would still use logical quotation in my talk page writings and my emails, because I can imagine no other way. Obviously, the MoS can't accommodate both my likes and your likes. It seems that, like so many things, there is no solution in this Earthly life. Ozob (talk) 23:33, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it can. It could permit AQ, BQ and LQ with consistency within each article, as it does with British and American spelling, the serial comma, etc.

I guess it depends on how the subject was taught. I had one teacher who insisted on twelve-point Times New Roman for every assignment just because it was an anti-peeve of hers, and the sight of anything written in that font and size annoyed me for years. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:07, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog, I know why the WP:Logical quotation matter keeps coming up; I have seen what you have seen regarding that. And that is what I mean. When it does come up, people often cite it as a British vs. American style. I was asking if it has not been British vs. American style all this time, then why do people often cite it as British vs. American style in these discussions? Either way, I am not understanding the logical quotation rule in its entirety now; the reasons for that are in everything I have brought up on the matter. I thought it was as simple as having all sentence fragments end with the closing punctuations outside of the quoted material. It has not helped when some of you disagree on how WP:Logical quotation is supposed to be applied. For example, as I stated before, Finell said that the period should go outside of the quoted material for any type of sentence fragment. You disagree. Now Finell seems to disagree with that earlier statement. PS...the next person should outdent if we continue this part of the discussion further (LOL). Flyer22 (talk) 23:22, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I used to think that the Wikipedia MoS was endorsing British punctuation too. Truthfully, in practice, British and LQ only rarely differ, so it takes some digging to see how they're different. Aside from the treatment of colons and semicolons, the biggest difference is in the theory: British punctuation treats words as words and LQ treats them as strings of characters. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

A possibly more illuminating characterization of LQ (I found it helpful, when I noticed it while trying to articulate why I didn't entirely agree with the last part of the last sentence above) is that LQ doesn't treat the words at all: it only treats the trailing punctuation, if any. That is, it doesn't care what the quoted material means; and, indeed, it doesn't care about the specific meaning of the trailing punctuation either — all it cares about is whether the meaning of the trailing punctuation is part of the meaning of the quoted material, or part of the meaning of the surrounding prose. In the case of a "string literal" in computer science, the meaning of the quoted material is, in fact, a sequence of characters; then, a trailing punctuation mark outside the quotation marks is providing structural information about the surrounding prose (that is, punctuating the surrounding prose), while a trailing puncutation mark inside the quotation marks is just another character amongst those that make up the string literal. In the case of a prose quotation, such as the one we've been discussing, a trailing punctuation mark outside the quotation marks is again providing structural information about the surrounding prose, while a a trailing punctuation mark inside the quotation marks is providing structural information about the quoted material (since it is part of the quoted material).

There is one flaw in my description above of the prose quotation case, in that if the trailing punctuation occurs inside the quotation marks, the meaning of the trailing punctuation "bleeds through" to the surrounding prose, so that (unless there is also a punctuation mark immediately outside the closing quotation mark, which would make the whole thing much more string-literal-like) the punctuation mark immediately inside the closing quotation mark is understood as applying to both the quoted material and the surrounding prose. --Pi zero (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I have responded a little below in this section to the position you have about what you call "the trailing comma." Flyer22 (talk) 22:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Section break

People often talk about it in terms of British vs. American style because they are ignorant of the many, many discussions about this here, they like thinking in simple terms, they like arguing, especially if it fires up a feisty Brits vs. Yanks fight, they don't pay attention, because they are hidebound and hardheaded, and many other reasons. Who cares? It's not a US vs. UK style issue, no matter how much a certain couple of editors want to make it into one. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 02:16, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, I appreciate you weighing in on that matter. Any other helpful comments you can make regarding other parts of this discussion would also be appreciated. Flyer22 (talk) 22:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Pi zero, feeling that "quoted material" means "material that occurs within quotes in the MTV article" is not exactly what I meant. If I did, then I would not have objected much to the period being placed outside of the quote...since it does not appear within the text. What I meant is what I just stated above to Cosmic Latte Flyer22 (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Pi zero, I am not getting this edit you made (which is why I undid it). From the discussion on the Avatar (2009 film) talk page and part of the discussion here, it has been stated that the comma should be inside of the quoted material. In fact, Cosmic Latte did not have a problem with this, because the text in the source also uses a comma there; this is the compromise the both of us (Cosmic Latte and I) made before I brought the matter here. Flyer22 (talk) 23:22, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I was fine with that at first, but both here and on Avatar talk, people raised a point that I hadn't considered: There's absolutely no way to tell from the source if Cameron's sentence ends there, or if that spot contained a comma, etc. Because the source itself doesn't use LQ, it doesn't let us see what Cameron did or didn't say after the word "interesting". Perhaps his sentence ended there. Perhaps it continued--and, if so, perhaps it included a comma in that spot. We just don't know, because the TQ format that the source uses simply doesn't care: It requires a comma there, regardless. So, when we're citing the source, if we omit the comma (remember that the act of quotation always is a potential act of omission), then we can be sure that we're not adding anything to what Cameron said--we can have greater confidence that we're rendering Cameron's line with the same precision that the source intended, and which it achieved as best as it could through TQ. To be honest, I don't entirely see how this degree of precision is required by LQ; however, because quotation always is at liberty to omit material (i.e., to the left and right of the quotation marks), I certainly think that such precision couldn't hurt, and that we ought to take advantage of it when it's at our disposal. Cosmic Latte (talk) 04:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I have responded to this a little below in this section. Flyer22 (talk) 22:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

While Pi Zero did make a good point about the comma itself, I'd like to point out that even if the MTV interview had used LQ, it wouldn't have given us any information about what Cameron did or didn't say after "interesting." None of the three major forms of punctuation let us know which words have and haven't been omitted or even whether any words have been omitted. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

If the MTV interview had used LQ, and had placed a comma just before the closing quotation mark, that would tell us that Cameron did not end his sentence there. --Pi zero (talk) 19:22, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Unless the next words were "he said" or something, but in general, yes, you've pointed out a new possibility. In the case of this Avatar quote, though, they act the same way. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:43, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether the next words are "he said" or something. If the comma goes inside the quotes in LQ, then that is an assertion that the sentence did not end there. If a document uses LQ, and it says

"No elephants are pink," he said.

then the document is asserting that "No elephants are pink" is not his complete sentence. It isn't just failing to assert that his sentence ended there, it is actually asserting that his sentence did not end there. That's because it is asserting that the comma is part of the description of what he said. The document could have avoided making that assertion, by saying

"No elephants are pink", he said.

which leaves us, the readers of the document, not knowing whether the sentence ended there, although we would then think it unlikely that the word "pink" was followed by a comma (because if it were, the document using LQ would probably have put the comma inside the quotation marks). --Pi zero (talk) 04:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Only if the reader knows that LQ is in use. Takes us back to Wikipedia conditions vs. laboratory conditions. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Real conditions versus laboratory conditions is the point at which circumstances induced me to drop that thread, leaving it woefully incomplete, as other threads demanded all of my very limited Wikipedia time. You did state your position on this; I just never stated mine (in that thread, though I believe we got a little further on this aspect of it in an earlier thread that, however, we had failed to ground in the laboratory conditions). Your position can be boiled down to "Since the reader might misunderstand the information that we provide, why bother to provide it?"; that's not exactly presenting your position in its best light, but it should make clear why I don't find your position compelling. My position is that if we were to very carefully tease out all the probabilities involved, we would find, after tedious analysis, that the reader is most likely to get the right information if we actually provide the right information. --Pi zero (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Not quite. My position is actually, "Because, under real conditions, logical quotation provides no information or advantage over American and British forms, we should not prefer it to American and British forms." We can tease out probabilities or we can look at what's actually happened: Readers have been getting the right information from American and British standard forms for hundreds of years. The idea that American and British punctuation creates problems that LQ does not simple doesn't hold water. Words in an encyclopedia aren't literal strings; they're words. And they're not read by programs; they're read by people. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Your basic statement about "what's actually happened" is misrepresentative, because it is ambiguous in a way that hides the distinction that you're trying to draw a conclusion about. You say "Readers have been getting the right information from American and British standard forms for hundreds of years"; but this is only true if one takes "the right information" to refer only to information that those forms actually express, which means that, in order to make the statement true, you have to first decide to ignore what makes LQ different. It seems quite fair to say that readers have been getting some right information from those forms. However, in order to use those forms it is necessary to systematically remove certain information, available to the author, that could have been expressed using LQ. (And whether or not that information would have been rightly understood, had it been expressed, is only a sensible question after the act of expression has been performed.) The information that was systematically omitted from the expression cannot have been "gotten" by any reader, human or otherwise, because the information was actually not there.

The temptation to skip over the details after a certain point, cutting the Gordian knot — and it is a great temptation, I agree — can only safely be indulged when those details really don't contribute to the bottom line. (I am tempted myself, at this point, to break down the situation into its basic parts and cases, and then discourse on the outcomes and probabilities involved... but honestly I don't have time (which I find deeply frustrating) and also lack confidence that we wouldn't turn out to be failing to communicate at some earlier point, with the result that you would not be enabled to get anything from my time-consuming expression.) --Pi zero (talk) 21:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

My basic statement is that AQ and BQ have served writers and readers very well for a very long time without demonstrating the kinds of problems that LQ's supporters claim that they do: They do not confuse people. They do not create factual errors. They do not violate the sanctity of the source or introduce errors in subsequent editing, at least not any more than LQ does. They might look as though they ought to, but their track record shows that they generally do not.

I get the part where someone who has spent a lot of time looking at strings literal can then look at American punctuation and say, "Hm. I can see how this could potentially confuse someone." But that same person ought to be able to look at its history and say, "Oh. But it doesn't happen in practice." It's like British spelling. "Hm. This looks like people would pronounce it 'senn-treh.'" "Oh, but almost everyone knows that it's pronounced 'center' and if they don't, they figure it out real fast." It only looks like it would be a problem. There is so, so, so much evidence showing that it isn't a problem.

Angie doesn't like it when Mark opens the window, so she says, "It's rude of Mark to open the window." Mark isn't being rude. He's just doing something that Angie doesn't like. But rather than owning up and saying that she just doesn't like it, Angie feels the need to imagine that some larger system, in this case courtesy, agrees with her. Really, her own preferences ought to be enough for her to politely ask Mark not to open the window. (But then of course, Angie would have to consider Mark's preferences as equal to her own.) That's what's going on here. AQ and BQ don't really create problems. It's just that people who prefer LQ feel the need to imagine that something bigger than themselves agrees with them. So they take the idea that AQ and BQ look like they would cause problems and they blow that up like a balloon—big and flashy, but hollow inside it skin.

Now that isn't to say that AQ and BQ are perfect. They're not. But we've seen that LQ has its problems too. What we haven't seen is AQ and BQ causing any of the sort of problems that would merit forbidding their use.

You've brought up whether or not LQ is correct, and in general I don't consider it to be so, but that does depend on we take "correct" to mean, and I can see how a case could be made either way. However, it is clear that LQ is certainly not standard. It might become so in twenty or thirty years (or turn out to be a fad and fade away), but it isn't right now. I see it as being like a Texas twang or Southern drawl, a curiosity that can suggest the flavor of the subculture that uses it, but not something that everyone should do. I don't see why we have to write Wikipedia with a programmer's accent when what we're writing isn't a programming document. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Cosmic Latte and Pi zero, do not forget the video. Cosmic Latte, you keep overlooking that. Are you able to view it? We know from the video that Cameron's sentence ends there, which is why having the quote the way I originally had it (ending with the period within the quote) was deemed fine at the Avatar (2009 film) talk page and here. This version:

"They both fall in love with each other, but they need to fight side-by-side," said Cameron, "and so there's that kind of requirement to let the other person go in order to do what you need to do, which is kind of interesting."

As for precision, you stated that you do not "entirely see how this degree of precision is required by LQ." Yes, neither do I. Cosmic Latte and Pi zero, if we start going by this type of formatting, then it should be explicit in the WP:Logical quotation section. But even if we were to start using WP:Logical quotation this way, it would mean that we would start having full quotes end with their commas outside of the quoted material. Why should we do that? Because it would tell us that Cameron's sentence was finished? Most people would not think of the comma placement that way. To them, that sentence is finished either way. They do not know of this "the comma goes outside of quoted material to indicate that the sentence is finished" tactic. Sure, a lot of people also do not know of British and logical quotation formatting having sentence fragments end with their closing punctuations outside of the quoted material, but I am sure it would make more sense to them than having full quotes end with their closing punctuations outside of the quoted material. The point you two are making is that the comma should go outside of the quoted material so that it is clear that the sentence is finished. But isn't putting the comma outside of the quoted material treating the sentence as a sentence fragment and as though the sentence may not be finished? And why should we try to present this type of sentence as "without a doubt finished," if we cannot possibly know if it is truly finished or not unless we hear an audio version of it? Thus, because of these points I have presented, why should we treat a full sentence this way? Right now, WP:Logical quotation says: "On Wikipedia, place all punctuation marks inside the quotation marks if they are part of the quoted material and outside if they are not." Are we saying that the comma is not a part of the quoted material even though it is presented as such? It is true that I would not consider it a part of the quoted material...because no sentence ends in a comma. But that still does not stop us from ending sentences in a comma followed by a "he said" or "she said" (or some variation of it). And like Ozob stated, "...the comma really doesn't give us any information; nevertheless, it's what's in our source. This is something that the MoS doesn't really address, because it assumes the source is always and completely infallible." For any type of text only interview, we cannot know for sure if someone's sentence ended exactly at the spot it is presented as having ended in the source...unless it ends with an ellipsis (such as which is kind of interesting...). To go the route you two are suggesting is basically saying that all full sentences which end with a comma should be treated the way we treat sentence fragments -- that they should end with a comma outside of the quote...unless there is an audio clip we can listen to so that we can know exactly if the sentence ended as presented. Additionally, I have to ask why this does not apply to periods. A full sentence ending with the period within the quote does not mean that Cameron's statement did not end there. Thus, why does a full sentence ending with a comma within the quote have to mean that his sentence did not end there in regards to WP:Logical quotation? I have never seen this type of logical quotation applied on Wikipedia. Flyer22 (talk) 22:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

LQ does not treat anything as a sentence fragment. It does not acknowledge the difference between full sentences, partial sentences or random strings of numbers, letters, punctuation and spaces. BQ would treat a sentence fragment the way you're thinking of but LQ holds no position on fragments.

Actually, Pi Zero and SmC aren't saying that putting the comma outside will make it clear that the sentence is finished but rather they are saying that putting the comma outside does nothing at all. They also believe that putting it inside would trick people into thinking that it wasn't complete—I do not share this belief. They believe that problems are created when the comma is placed inside and they do not believe that problems are created when it is placed outside, so they prefer it outside. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:43, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Placing the comma inside would not "trick people into thinking" that the sentence isn't complete. Placing the comma inside would actually assert, unambigously, that the sentence isn't complete, because it would attribute the comma to Cameron. There's no trickery involved. This is an elementary application of LQ; it's not even a difficult case. It's easy, because there is no question about who we are quoting: we actually state in our sentence that we are quoting Cameron. That's why, as Flyer22 points out, if our sentence were rearranged so that it ended at the closing quotation mark, we could correctly put a period just before that closing quotation mark: because we are quoting Cameron. (If we were quoting MTV, then it would be incorrect for us to put a period inside the closing quotation mark, since MTV didn't.)

I have long had a lurking uncomfortable suspicion, Darkfrog, that you might honestly not understand how LQ works. I couldn't, and so far still can't, wrap my head around why that could possibly be, but the uncertainty is part of why I have been endeavoring, over time, to explore in discussions with you the detailed foundations of LQ — trying to identify exactly where we part company, in the hopes that this would either pinpoint a miscommunication, or show how some other phenomenon fully explains the anomalies that have caused the suspicion. (Even under good conditions this would be a difficult exercise in mapping the correspondences between disparate viewpoints; and it's made much more difficult by my limited and erratic time for Wikipedia). --Pi zero (talk) 05:27, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that I have a pretty good grasp of it, Pi Zero. I simply don't believe that it gives Wikipedia any advantage over more correct forms. And I assert that "trick" is in this case a pretty close approximation of "lead people to believe something that is not the case." You're concerned that the reader would believe that Cameron did not complete the sentence when this may not have been the case. Hence, "trick." However, I do not believe that readers, under ordinary Wikipedia conditions, would make any such assumption, primarily because most of them don't know about LQ and even the ones who do are used to either AQ or BQ, both of which place closing punctuation inside the quotation marks in cases involving direct dialogue. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

This matter of the word "trick", together with comments in another branch of the discussion, suggest to me a clarification of why the word "trick" bothered me in the first place: it's placing primary emphasis on the reader. Getting the right information to the reader is our ultimate goal, but the way we go about it is to present correct information in the first place. By putting the comma inside the quotation marks we would be making an unsupported statement: we would be stating that Cameron did not end his sentence there. We don't know that, and in fact it isn't true. Therefore we have no business stating it. That's how logical quotation works. The use of the word "trick" is just placing heavy emphasis on something that should not be our primary focus when working out how to apply logical quotation.

You have not made any secret, I think, of the fact that your opposition to LQ is not based on any consideration about the correct or incorrect expression of information, nor its communication to the reader. You believe logical quotation to be inherently incorrect English (a position that, to understate the case, I don't agree with), and the rest is about addressing arguments that others find compelling although you, presumably, would not even if you agreed with those arguments. Nevertheless, as long as there is lingering disagreement on the information issues involved —which you and I discuss in such depth— there is merit in our continuing to search for mutual understanding on those issues, since none of us is trying to misrepresent anything. But slipping that "any advantage over more correct forms" crack into the midst of a discussion about information content is the sort of thing that causes some folks here (though not me) to suspect you of shady debate techniques.

(BTW, if I had to guess, I too would say that you probably do have a pretty good grasp of it — though of course you would almost certainly think so anyway; what does a misunderstanding look like from the inside? It's just that there are these odd notes that get struck from time to time, that set off warning bells in the back of my mind. I've seen mind-bogglingly messy disconnects result from misunderstandings so slippery that they're almost impossible even to recognize as misunderstandings, let alone to identify and clear. Hence my unease when I encounter any faint whiff of such an insidious hazard.) --Pi zero (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It is LQ itself that has no bearing on providing correct vs. incorrect information. On Wikipedia, neither LQ nor AQ nor BQ convey any more or less information than the other. The belief that American punctuation provides false information is itself false. You say that, by leaving the comma or period outside, LQ provides no information, false or true, about when Cameron ended his sentence. American punctuation does the exact same thing by using a comma or period that is understood to be part of the quotation process. Neither system provides either accurate or inaccurate information, and American punctuation is easier to use.

What we communicate to the reader by using LQ is that we care more about a few Wikipedians' personal preferences—and a couple of people have mentioned displeasure with old high school English teachers—than we do about creating a professional and encyclopedic tone. And yes, AQ and BQ are more correct than LQ. They have a longer history and are more widely accepted and by more serious writers and organizations than LQ is. (ACS, for example, is serious about chemistry but not about writing.) This makes them more correct. The fact that you consider it to be a crack surprises me, because I do go to some length to try to avoid offending LQ's supporters. If I'd been trying to make a crack, I'd have left out the "more."

Concur that people who don't understand things probably don't know it. That's why the "and understood" part of the "I have read and understood the terms of this agreement" that we so often see on EULAs and websites has no place there. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Most people not knowing about logical quotation is what I was saying above, Darkfrog24. But "LQ does not treat anything as a sentence fragment"? I ask, "How can that be?" Are you speaking of logical quotation in a different sense than how it is generally used on Wikipedia? As I stated above, WP:Logical quotation currently says, "On Wikipedia, place all punctuation marks inside the quotation marks if they are part of the quoted material and outside if they are not." After that, it gives us sentence fragment examples. People have consistently used WP:Logical quotation to mean that sentence fragments should end with the period outside of the quoted material, as seen with the edit which led to the discussions at the Avatar (2009 film) article talk page and here. The editor seen in that link applied WP:Logical quotation the way I see it usually applied, and the way I apply it, except for that one line. That one line became the basis of this debate, as we know. I doubt that editor checked each of those sources to see how the sources had the sentences. I assumed/still assume that editor saw sentence fragments (and one he or she believed to be a sentence fragment), and placed the periods outside of the quotes based on WP:Logical quotation. Really, I am unsure of how WP:Logical quotation is supposed to be applied if that is not the way. If it has all these other circumstances that make it even more complicated to follow, I am wondering why this is not addressed in the WP:Logical quotation section. If WP:Logical quotation is not as simple as punctuations go outside for sentence fragments, then is this not addressed there because the logical quotation link is supposed to address all that?

As for the editor seen in that recent link I provided, I will invite him or her to this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 23:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I see that this specific interpretation (periods outside of the quoted material for sentence fragments) has now been brought up below...I think. Flyer22 (talk) 00:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we need to make clear in the MoS what logical punctuation is, because few editors seem to understand it, and also that people shouldn't try to change articles with a stable style. What's happening is that correctly punctuated (within the system) articles that use aesthetic are being changed by editors to logical, but not changed properly, so dog's breakfast part 1 occurs. Part 2 is when the original editors return and resume editing with the original style, not realizing the article has been partly changed and/or not knowing how to do logical punctuation anyway, or not wanting to know. The result is a mish-mash of styles. We really need (a) to explain logical punctuation properly in the MoS, and (b) to make clear that a properly punctuated stable article, in either style, should be left as it is. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, Slim. Flyer22 (talk) 00:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Although...I'm wondering about the "letting articles go against Wikipedia formatting" part. Flyer22 (talk) 03:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion

I'm only half following this discussion and the latest additions to the MoS, but it seems to me that we need to stop forcing logical quotation onto people, because it's way too complex. I would never try to use it myself, and I see it being used wrongly all the time. Can we not simply allow people to use the punctuation style they choose, so long as the article's internally consistent? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 04:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The proposal to abandon logical quotation has often been brought up before, but turned down every time; Darkfrog24 surely can inform us on all that.

I would say that we cannot have people using any punctuation style that they choose, though, because that would result in the inconsistency formatting within articles that you were/are trying to avoid (at least judging by your earlier comments on the matter). Flyer22 (talk) 04:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I mean they could choose to use aesthetic punctuation or logical, or perhaps whatever people here are calling BQ, though I have no idea what that is. The point would be simply that, as with citation styles, if they are using a recognized style, they can carry on using it, so long as they're consistent. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 04:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

That we had to use logical punctuation was added to the MoS on August 23, 2002, on the mistaken assumption that this was British style. [2] The idea was to split the difference between American and British—use double quotation marks, which the writers wrongly identified as American, and logical punctuation, which they wrongly identified as British.

This is an international project. We ought to be putting nationalist ideas to one side (especially when we keep getting them wrong), and use whatever people find easier. It's not something we should try to force on editors, because they do it instinctively depending on what they're used to, so there's no point trying to legislate. Despite the MoS, most of Wikipedia uses aesthetic punctuation, because that's what most Wikipedians are used to doing. So let's allow editors to use the punctuation style of their choosing, just as we allow them to use the citation style of their choice, so long as articles are internally consistent. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 05:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Slim, I know what you meant. But I'm saying that the inconsistency issue would remain, and perhaps be even bigger. If we do not have one style outlined in the Maual of Style, then what's to stop rampant inconsistency within just one article? One guy may prefer American style, for example, while the other guy prefers British style. If we say they can use any punctuation they want, then that means that an article can be half American style and half British style if that is what the editors want. Letting an editor use whatever style he or she wants would mean that he or she could go to an article that is mainly British style and inject his or her American style into it with new additions...because there is no rule saying that he or she must be consistent with the style already present in the aricle. Unless we add a consistentcy rule. Flyer22 (talk) 21:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Simple, Flyer22. We tie punctuation to ENGVAR and require consistency within each article. If the article is in American English, use American punctuation. If it's in British English, use British punctuation. That way we respect both American and British contributors. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(That isn't a new argument, of course.) We allow regional variations in spelling, canonically American versus British, because they are information-neutral; that is, an American reader can read an article written using British spelling, or vice versa, and not miss anything that they would have gotten if the article had been written with the spelling that reader is more familiar with. When regional variations convey equal amounts of information, but the differences would potentially interfere with communication, we try to avoid them (like "table the motion" that means opposite things on opposite sides of the Pond). But in the case of quotation, the different styles don't convey equal amounts of information; using any style other than logical quotation actually reduces the amount of information that the text is capable of trying to communicate. So quotation style is non-information-neutral, and abandoning logical quotation in favor of regional variations would actively degrade the quality of the product we are able to deliver.

Concerning complexity — logical quotation is really, really simple. Just this: put between quotes only what you know to be part of what was actually said. The only legitimately difficult part of this is that being precise is hard work, and that's no excuse not to strive for it in an encyclopedia.

That said, if you become convinced (a.k.a. indoctrinated) that it's complicated, you can talk yourself into having trouble with it. That might sound crazy (or worse, pejorative), but it's not. I've seen this bizarre-seeming but very real phenomenon at work on a large scale. In my teens I heard a meme that, even though intuitively you'd think that simple signatures would be easier to forge than complicated ones, it's actually the opposite of what you'd expect. Then in college I met a guy in administration with a near-eidetic memory, who remarked in a casual moment that it was a good thing everything he was supposed to have signed actually went through his hands, because he remembered which papers he had and hadn't signed, whereas nobody else would be able to catch forgeries because he had a very simple signature, and simple signatures are really easy to forge — although, he added with some puzzlement, he'd noticed that almost everyone thought simple signatures were harder to forge. So, he explained, it was actually the opposite of what most people expect. --Pi zero (talk) 05:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Pi zero, I've been writing for a long time, and I wouldn't try to use LQ. We don't always have access to the sources that others have used, for one thing. But regardless, the point is that lots of editors who go around changing people's punctuation to LQ keep getting it wrong. It's been going on for years, and it's silly. We end up with articles that are wrongly punctuated only because someone has tried to correct them. And that's happening because of the advice in the MoS, which makes it doubly silly. Let's apply common sense. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 05:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Slim, I just responded to you again about this a little above in this section. Flyer22 (talk) 21:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sadly a very stupid choice was made long ago and the project—to date—has stupidly adhered to it. As SlimVirgin has noted, the satisfactory execution and maintenance of logical quotation requires (a) an exceptionally high degree of precision and (b) direct access to original sources. To assume either, let alone both, of a volunteer, amateur, communal project is ludicrous. I am well aware that these points have been raised before. I advocate that they contine to be raised until this stupid system is overturned.

Why have I chosen to engage at this particular point? Because the recent volley of edits drew my attention to a remarkably stupid passage in our beloved Manual of Style. I reproduce it here in its entirety for your edification, amusement, and (I trust) horror:

Copying quotations from sources-within-sources requires some judgment. Publishers often add periods and commas that are not permitted under logical quotation. Say that a magazine prints the text "I feel," wrote Arthur, "that the situation is deplorable. It's unacceptable." The period after "deplorable" is certainly Arthur's, but we do not know for sure if Arthur himself placed the comma after "I feel" or the period after "unacceptable" or whether the magazine added either or both of them later. When translating other styles into logical quotation, only include those characters that are certainly part of the material being cited.

Correct:

"I feel", wrote Arthur, "that the situation is deplorable."

Correct:

"I feel", wrote Arthur, "that the situation is deplorable. It's unacceptable".

Incorrect:	Arthur wrote, "I feel that the situation is deplorable."
	(We don't know that the comma wasn't part of what Arthur wrote himself.)

First, if Arthur is anyone worth quoting, we most certainly do know that he did not, could not, would never place a comma between "I feel" and "that". And if he did, it was obviously a typographical error that any responsible publisher would silently correct. So: our prime Incorrect example here is deeply, truly, madly stupid. And yes, there's more...

We currently claim here that the "period after 'deplorable' is certainly Arthur's". Really? Certainly? Here's something I know for certain: magazines these days frequently quote passages from emails that obey no rules of punctuation, capitalization, spelling, or grammar. Guess what, folks—magazines often clean things up! Do we really, actually, certainly know—without, you know, direct access to the original source—that Arthur didn't write, "i feel that the situation is deplorable; its unaceptable."? Hardly.

Insist on this LQ (low-quality) practice if you must, but please don't insult us further with these BS "examples".—DCGeist (talk) 07:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

A most interesting, and potentially illuminating, misunderstanding. Logical quotation does not require you to have greater knowledge than would otherwise be required of you, and specifically it does not require access to original sources. Logical quotation can be used to say that you don't know something, as well as being used to say that you do; it just enables you to say those things, whatever they are, with greater precision. When you don't know, don't put it inside the quotation marks. If that magazine is your reliable source of information about what Arthur wrote, then you can only report what Arthur wrote based on that information. In the extreme, if you actually doubt that Arthur wrote what the magazine claims he wrote, that's a separate matter, and not within the purview of mere mechanics; you might want to handle it by not claiming to report exactly what Arthur wrote. (If the magazine is a popular print periodical, you may doubt whether Arthur even wrote those words, let alone the punctuation; but again, that's not logical quotation's responsibility, logical quotation is just a tool that you are responsible for deciding when and how to use.)

I'm not, BTW, particularly defending the specific wording of the paragraph (though I do think invoking the "nothing can be known for certain" argument is a rather disappointingly empty sophistry to encounter in a serious discussion).

The recently added sprawl of explanatory examples seems rather unsightly, especially since it opens us up to nitpicking over things like the use of the word "certain" — although, presumably, what really matters is whether most people find it helpful, which I have no insight into since outliers on both sides (people who already grokked it before, or who still don't after) do not necessarily reveal the middle of the distribution. If there is found to be a widespread misapprehension that logical quotation requires greater knowledge in order to apply it (it may well be widespread; I wouldn't be surprised), this may suggest a way of drastically improving the current sprawl. --Pi zero (talk) 09:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

It appears that you're referring to my argument when you wail that "invoking the 'nothing can be known for certain' argument is a rather disappointingly empty sophistry to encounter." Well, you're just full of it. I do not claim that "nothing can be known for certain." I have simply demonstrated that our example, which should be an ideal, is very far from it. It claims that a specific something can be known for certain, when that is obviously far from the case. In other words, this example is a complete failure. Get it? I have not claimed, and would never claim, that "nothing can be known for certain." Indeed, in the very same communication, I asserted that it could be known for certain that a fairly literate writer would never place a comma between "I feel" and "that." Remember? Guess what, zero. It is you have descended into "disappointingly empty sophistry," and falsely accused me of your own sin. Care to apologize?—DCGeist (talk) 09:40, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

While I do not agree with Pi Zero's conclusions, said editor has been consistently civil and hasn't done anything to apologize for. Restating other people's arguments in other terms is one way of trying to understand them. If you feel that Pi Zero misunderstood you, then simply explain yourself further. There's no need to call people "full of it."

The idea of replacing LQ keeps coming up because the rule is causing problems. I fully support the idea that we replace LQ with standard punctuation forms. I would tie punctuation to spelling and follow ENGVAR.

However, it is not true to say that LQ is the same as British punctuation. British punctuation is more consistent in its treatment of sentence fragments, song titles, direct speech, etc. British punctuation treats words like they're words and LQ treats them no differently than if they were random strings of characters. Because our readers are people and not machines, it seems to me that they would react better to words than to strings of characters.

On Wikipedia, LQ does not actually convey any more or less information than BQ or AQ. Only when the reader 1. knows that LQ is in use and 2. understands how LQ works and 3. trusts that the writer has used LQ correctly will he or she gain any additional information, and then only about one character, not about the meaning or point of the quotation. (If I write, "Springsteen, nicknamed 'the Boss,' wrote 'Your Hometown,' " do the commas say anything about the nickname or the song title? No.) It is safe to assume that these three conditions are, at most, extremely rare on Wikipedia. And if BQ and AQ are so inadequate in their treatment of information, then why does almost every academic discipline and scholarly publication mandate their use? I worked in history, folks. Things don't get much more persnickety than that.

The idea that spelling is "information-neutral" is wrong, or at least entirely dependent on one's threshold for information. Spelling something "centre" instead of "center" conveys information about the writer. What it doesn't do is confuse people or create factual errors.

Now, as to which system is simplest, there are a couple of different ways to look at it. In theory, both LQ's "put it inside if it was part of the quote and outside if it's not" and AQ's "put periods and commas inside all the time" both look pretty simple, and BQ's "treat direct quotes this way and everything else that way" isn't so bad either. When the theory looks about the same, we should look at what happens in practice. It does look to me like LQ is harder to use, but people who like the style probably won't mind extra effort, but that is about preferences, not about any inherent superiority or inferiority.

The issue shouldn't be whether LQ is good enough to be allowed on Wikipedia; it's whether British and American standards are bad enough to get banned from Wikipedia. I've never seen anything that suggests that they are. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:22, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog, I'll briefly (as I can) and selectively comment on one of your points above, which seems especially central to the whole matter of information transmission. The maximization of accurate information delivery by logical quotation doesn't require that the reader know LQ is in use, nor understand it, nor trust that it's being used correctly. Obliviousness to those things on the part of the reader should also cause LQ to maximize the accuracy of what the reader comes away with — not as much as stringent "laboratory conditions", of course, but that's why we describe them as laboratory conditions. (Moreover, this consequence of LQ should also be remarkably robust under misimplementation of LQ by well-meaning writers who don't understand how LQ works, making it just one more thing in the unruly mass of Wikipedia whose improved implementation could further enhance its already positive value. A positive balance emerging from a very messy situation — very Wikipedian.) --Pi zero (talk) 15:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Communication is almost by definition about a recipient as well as a sender. I could be speaking in perfect Russian, but if my recipient only speaks Polish, then the message isn't going to work. If I'm speaking Spanish, but my reader has been lead to believe that I'm speaking Portuguese, then it's just going to sound like I'm speaking Portuguese very badly. If the reader doesn't know about LQ, then that reader is far more likely to think, "Hm, this is punctuated a bit sloppily, isn't it?" than "So this comma really was part of the text." We need to write for our audience, and most of our audience doesn't speak LQ. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

My position on what LQ does in practice on Wikipedia embraces the assumption that most readers, most of the time, don't consciously think at all about whether or not the trailing punctuation is being attributed to the source. Readers will end up with an impression in their minds about what was said, including an impression about the structure of what was said that, if they tried to write down just what was said, would appear in the form of trailing punctuation (or lack thereof). If the reader were to actually consciously think about it, they might well consciously form a different impression in their minds, but on top of most people's natural lack of extreme rigor, even relatively rigorous people have limited time resources and may be reading the Wikipedia article at speed. When they aren't consciously thinking about it as they read the quote, the trailing punctuation that actually occurs in the Wikipedia article, either inside or outside the closing quotation mark, will have more impact on their mental impression of what was said if it's inside the closing quotation mark, and less impact on their mental impression of what was said if it's outside the closing quotation mark. This is going to be true regardless of whether they've ever heard of "logical quotation" (under that or any other name), and it's also going to be true regardless of why the author of the Wikipedia article put the trailing punctuation where they did. So the reader is more likely to have ended up with a correct mental impression of what was said if what the Wikipedia article does is what LQ says it should do. --Pi zero (talk) 17:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Most people get an impression of a piece of writing as high-quality or low-quality even if they can't pick out all the precise mistakes. For people not familiar with LQ, it just looks like AQ or BQ done badly.

If you're making the point that LQ sends some beneficial subliminal message, then I'd really like to see something that actually backs that up before we forbid authors to use standard English.

The bottom line here is that proper British and American forms don't actually create a problem for our readers, so we don't have any real, non-hypothetical reason to ban them. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Random break

LQ is a great example of why proscriptive guidelines fail on Wikipedia. Though the stated consensus for it is affirmed every time it comes up, nobody is going out there bringing articles into compliance (because it is so time-consuming), so the actual operating consensus is that we leave quotations in whatever format they were introduced, whether LQ, AQ, or BQ, ensuring that in this area we don't even achieve consistency within articles (thus undermining the #1 stylistic premise of the MOS). Christopher Parham (talk) 14:30, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly right. People who are arguing that LQ is superior are missing the point of this talk page. We are not here to argue those points. We are here only to decide what is best for Wikipedia.

Two factors come into play in that decision. First, our policies and guidelines must be descriptive as well as prescriptive (some argue only descriptive). That means we must promote what good editors do already, and not impose things on people that they're not going to do. There's no question that most editors (including good editors) use aesthetic punctuation. Secondly, we're in a situation where multiple non-professional editors can change our articles. We therefore can't rely on a system that requires such precision. New editors don't always have access to the sources previous editors used, and even if they did, they usually wouldn't check. So LQ will cause mistakes to be made, and articles will end up punctuated according to neither system. For that reason, we ought to be recommending the simplest system. But I'm not even arguing that. I am arguing that we ought to let editors choose the punctuation style they feel most comfortable with, just as we do with citation styles, and that all that matters for MoS purposes is internal consistency. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 18:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, we spend all of our time here concerned exclusively with what is best for Wikipedia; it's not as if that were something novel. The way you've worded the above make it come across as if you have decided what you are going to believe, and you are here simply to force us to accede to your beliefs without any possibility that you might be mistaken or underinformed about anything. Although I trust that was not your intention, I point out as a general observation that for anyone here to take such an attitude would be bad for Wikipedia.

Setting aside less fundamental difficulties with the arguments in your above comment, the bottom line is this: you appear to be basing your entire position on the assume that logical quotation can't work for Wikipedia because it would only work if it were applied flawlessly. That is, you claim that its value to the project is insufficiently fault-tolerant. But logical quotation does not require, for its effectiveness, the great precision that you are evidently imagining it requires. Assuming unskilled readers and unskilled writers, the extent to which we end up delivering correct information will be proportional to the percentage of cases in which our quotation practice actually follows correct logical quotation, regardless of whether we are even aware of when it is and isn't doing so; this proportionality would hold even if we were following some other quotation style, and even if we were deciding whether to place each punctuation mark inside or outside the closing quotation mark by flipping a coin. The difference in recommending logical quotation is that by doing so we cause an increase in the statistical incidence of cases in which what we do actually follows correct logical quotation, and thus we cause an increase in delivery of correct information. That's not missing the point, that is the point.

Obviously, the more successfully the MOS is able to convey writers how to correctly use logical quotation (and doing so does not require any more research than using any other quotation style), the more our delivery of correct information will increase. --Pi zero (talk) 20:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

We've discussed this before, but I dispute your anlalsis. A reader can make one of two assumptions: that quotation punctuation has information content, or that it does not. Meanwhile the text can either actually contain such content (LQ) or it can not (AQ, BQ, or chaos); there is no way to tell from analysis of the text alone whether LQ is at work or not. If the reader assumes information content, he will get accurate information when the text contains such, and falsely discover information where there is none when non-LQ systems are in use. If a reader assumes no information content, he will get no information accurate or otherwise. You're correct to say that increasing the preponderance of LQ will increase the transmission of correct information; but you ignore the fact that prompting a reader expectation of LQ will increase the transmission of inaccurate information. At the moment, we have an MOS that promotes LQ (increasing reader expectations that it applies here) but we do nothing to actually increase its use (it's not checked at FA that I have experienced - certainly Tony didn't object to my use of American-style when he last reviewed one of my FAs - and nobody is going around converting articles to LQ style). We're not increasing the information content of our articles - we're encouraging people to look for information in what we know to be a random stream. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:22, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Pi zero, shorter responses would be greatly appreciated. My point was simply (a) that we must describe, not only prescribe, and (b) that most people don't know how to use LQ and despite many years of discussion the MoS hasn't explained it clearly, and therefore it's not going to be used properly. Can you briefly address only those points? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 20:17, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Because LQ only conveys more information than AQ and BQ when both applied and understood if not flawlessly than at least extremely well, then we can say that it needs to be applied extremely well to be worth doing.

LQ might not require more research, but it does require more instruction than AQ and BQ. This might be because it is more complicated in practice, but the fact that it is not taught in schools probably also contributes to this. People already know "treat a song title this way and direct speech that way" from years of writing lessons. Using LQ requires an entirely different attitude toward the text.

We're all trying to understand each other here, and if some of us prefer more length, then I'm fine with it. (No novels, though, please!)

I don't feel that the MoS needs to be descriptive in the linguistic sense. (By that I mean that it should of course describe what we want people to do, but it should not describe what happens in the language in general the way a linguistic study would.) This isn't an academic paper on language use; its' a set of instructions and we should own up to that. However, I do like the symbiotic relationship that the MoS has with the articles. The MoS section on quotation marks, for example, links to the article on quotation marks, which gives a good treatment of the history and origins of the styles. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:30, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Descriptive is meant in the sense of describing what we do at WP, not what happens in the language broadly. For instance, I can tell that there is consensus for non-breaking spaces between numbers and unit abbreviations because there are people who go around adding those non-breaking spaces. This rule is not just written in a guideline, it's actively applied by both flesh and blood editors and script users. The LQ rule exists only in the MOS. Not a single soul is actively bringing articles into compliance, and even our most rigorous evaluation processes (like FAC) don't pay attention to checking that it is applied correctly to the quotes in an article. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

In fact, it's often applied wrongly at FAC. I've had articles of mine, which were correctly punctuated according to aesthetic punctuation, moved to what the editor believed was LQ, but where he in fact moved commas that were inside in the original to the outside by mistake. I don't want to give diffs because I don't want to personalize the issue. It reached the stage where I would paraphrase rather than quote, unless it was a quote I really liked, to avoid exposing articles to incorrect punctuation. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 23:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

While you are (most commendably) not giving diffs, I would like to understand what was being done in these incidents (as it's occurred to me this could be key in relating them to the discussion here). Were all trailing punctuation marks being moved outside the quotation marks? --Pi zero (talk) 02:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sources

I think anyone adding anything to the punctuation section needs to cite their sources, and not add their own opinion. For example, that WP recommends LQ "because the method is deemed to be less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, and the introduction of errors in subsequent editing" is false. (a) That is not why we recommend it. And (b) it is more prone to the introduction of errors because WP is edited largely by people who don't understand it. So please, if we want to say anything about LQ, let's stick to what the best style guides say about it and cite them. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 06:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

While I agree that LQ has not been proven to be less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, etc., the actual text claims that it is "deemed" to be so, which is true. I would prefer some phrase that makes it even clearer that this is the opinion of many Wikipedians, the result of a Wikipedia consensus, rather than an observed fact.

I certainly have been making some guesses about how LQ works. The ACS style guide would probably be the best source for LQ. Does anyone here have access to a university chemistry library? There would probably be a copy there. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Logical quotation (continued)

I've been seeing editors try to correct "aesthetic" punctuation and turn it into "logical" punctuation, but they're not doing it correctly, and it has left a few articles in a bit of a mess. They seem to think the latter means simply placing the punctuation outside the quotation marks, whereas it means staying true to the original quotation, so it requires a high degree of precision. I'm therefore going to add a sentence or two about that, with a source, to clarify the misunderstanding. I'm making a note here in advance in case anyone wonders why I'm adding it. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 16:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

How do you feel about "Please note that LQ does not require placing closing periods and commas outside the quotation marks all the time but rather maintaining their original position in the quoted material" with some examples? Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

... how about "Please note that logical quotation does not always entail placing end punctuation outside the quotation marks, but rather maintaining the original punctuation of quoted material"? (i don't think "LQ" is a very felicitous abbreviation; and what's the verdict on using full stop/period in the MoS?) Sssoul (talk) 22:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Verdict?:S174.3.98.236 (talk) 23:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

174, Sssoul is asking whether we should call it a "full stop" or a "period," both if which refer to one of these: . We had a big talk about that a few months back. Whichever term we use, I think we should mention periods/full stops and commas specifically because exclamation points and question marks can also be ending punctuation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

If the punctuation placement is about sentence fragments, this same problem has been brought up above in the #Needed help regarding WP:Logical quotation section. We need to work these problems out now, because I am unsure of how to apply WP:Logical quotation if it is not as simple as placing end punctuations outside of the quoted material for sentence fragments only (as shown with the examples). Flyer22 (talk) 00:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It's a tricky system to use. You need to consult the original sources, not always online, and even then it's not always clear, so it requires a high degree of precision and sound editorial judgment. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

All the more reason to prefer AQ and BQ. But any publication that uses LQ should commit to doing it right. How does the ACS style guide handle this? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's an excerpt from the existing MoS language: "When quoting a sentence fragment that ends in a period, some judgment is required: if the fragment communicates a complete sentence, the period can be placed inside. The period should be omitted if the quotation is in the middle of a sentence."

From the examples beneath, the point of this passage seems to be to tell people not to do this: "She said 'Come with me.' and they did," with a confusing and inappropriate period after "me." What are we to make of it aside from that? Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

First, it should not say "is in the middle of a sentence" ("is drawn from" would be better here, anyway): the point is that the quotation finishes in the middle of a sentence (whether it starts with the start of the original sentence is irrelevant). Tony (talk) 08:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

... the excerpt Darkfrog24's brought up isn't about where the quoted material is drawn from, but where it appears in the new context. put a full stop/period inside the quote marks if a] it's part of the quoted material and b] it ends the sentence in which it's quoted (and there shouldn't be a second full stop/period after the quote marks): She said "Come with me." but if the same sentence is quoted in mid-sentence the full stop/period is omitted: She said "Come with me" but they ignored her.

nota bene: i'm not suggesting that wording, just agreeing with Darkfrog24 about the sense of the excerpt s/he's pointed out. (and logical quotation isn't really tricky to use; it just wants to be explained clearly.) Sssoul (talk) 14:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

So how do you guys feel about changing it to "Do not place a period in the middle of a sentence, even if it is part of the quoted material"? Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I see this has already been changed. I would have interpreted the original as applying only to sentence fragments.

The new version ("When quoting material that ends in a period, some judgment is required. Do not place a period in the middle of a sentence, even if it is part of the quoted material. ") seems to defeat the purpose of logical or data-safe quotation; it would appear to disallow not only

• One example is the "smile on the face of the tiger." in the well-known limerick

but also

• The document is quoted as stating "The treaty was ratified by the specified date." but it in fact stated "The treaty was ratified by the specified date but not deposited."
• "I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind, thoughtful." is the beginning of a well-known letter illustrating the importance of punctuation.
• The text of the message was "Who is the president of China." but the length of the message was miscalculated as a result of a fence-post error.

--Boson (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Boson, I would imagine (and I do not at present have a source on British or LQ for this, so in their case I must imagine, but it's true of American) all three forms of punctuation permit putting the closing period or comma thus when the punctuation is what's being discussed, though in all of those cases the surrounding wording would need to point out the periods and commas to make the article's purpose clear. It might suit the MoS to state this, but it is not the point of using LQ.

But you have pointed out a strong flaw in the now-current wording. It should say that a quotation should not generally place a period in the middle of a sentence, but it should also say that it may and must do so when the closing punctuation is the point, as it is in your examples. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:32, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I would only do that if I was discussing the string of characters itself with little or no regard for its meaning... ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

That's specifically when American punctuation permits non-standard placement. Such cases are very rare in ordinary prose, but they've merited a mention in almost every full style guide I've come across, so they should be mentioned here too. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The current text is most unsatisfactory. To begin with, the "final" false comma within a quotation (or worse, within quotation marks that highlight an item) needs to be exemplified as wrong under WP's system. Tony (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

If you're referring to the commas and periods that are part of American and often British quotation processes, then they're not false. They really are commas and periods. But considering that this became an issue on the Avatar article, it would probably be appropriate for the MoS to mention them. How's this?

Copying quotations from sources-within-sources requires some judgment. Both American and British standards often add periods and commas as part of the quotation process that would not be permitted under logical quotation. Say that a magazine prints the text: "I feel," wrote Arthur, "that the situation is deplorable and unacceptable." We do not know for sure if Arthur himself placed the comma after "I feel" and the period after "unacceptable" or whether the magazine added them later. When translating other styles into logical quotation, only include those characters that were certainly part of the material being cited. "I feel", wrote Arthur, "that the situation is deplorable and unacceptable". Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

What Boson said about interpreting "the original as applying only to sentence fragments" is exactly what I stated. A lot of editors have been using WP:Logical quotation that way for a long time now. It is going to be a difficult habit to break. Most will not even know of the new format, at least not for months (considering that most editors do not check this page often for changes in Wikipedia formatting). Given its perceived trickiness, I doubt most will follow it. I predict the old sentence fragment interpretation remaining for quite some time. But I appreciate the attempts that have been made to make WP:Logical quotation easier to understand. Flyer22 (talk) 04:25, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Now I am a little confused. That may be because I have missed some of the debate here. I understand from Flyer22's statement that there has been some change to the interpretation of logical quotation before the recent change by Darkfrog24. My understanding of logical quotation, which seems to be consistent with the other statements in WP:MOS was that logical quotation preserves the text being quoted, consistently and exactly (with very few exceptions, which must be clearly indicated, for instance by omission marks or square brackets). In other words:

• What is between quotation marks is exactly what was written in the original. Nothing is added or removed.
• A sentence usually begins with a capital letter and ends with a punctuation mark such as a period or question mark. If you intend to quote a sentence,the ending punctuation mark must be included (but if you intend to quote a fragment you can decide whether the trailing punctuation is included in your choice of fragment).
• Different punctuation marks are treated consistently: a period and a question mark, for instance, are not treated differently.
• Exact quotation requires preservation of the significant attributes of the quoted text, including
  • length in characters
  • all capitalization and punctuation
  • equivalent emphasis (e.g. bold or italic style)

I understood the purpose of logical qotation to be to preserve the original text exactly. With few exceptions, I don't see the argument for treating quotations differently when they happen to be in the middle of a sentence in the "host" text.

In my earlier examples, the punctuation was important. I chose those examples for that reason, but I don't think the consideration of its importance in a particular quotation should be relevant to the application of logical quotation. What is inside the quotation marks is governed by the rules of the original text; the reader should be able to rely on that and make his own decision on whether the punctuation is important; the editor might have overlooked the significance of the punctuation. This is particularly (but not exclusively) relevant when quoting artificial languages.--Boson (talk) 23:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Though I think logical quotation, as I understood it, is also simpler for the editor, because it is a matter of pasting the original between the quotation marks, I think there should be one apparent exception (and this may be what is intended by the recent edit): even where a sentence is quoted in full, I would not preserve the initial capital and terminating punctuation if the text is not quoted as a sentence but has been integrated into the syntax of the host sentence as a sentence fragment would be, the quotation marks being used to indicate that the author (or another person) is using someone else's wording rather than that the author is exactly reproducing what was written or said. For instance:

• He actually wrote "Complete bullshit!", not "I disagree." as quoted in the Daily Planet. but
• He agreed with the the senator that this was "complete bullshit" and had no foundation in fact.

--Boson (talk) 07:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the standard thing to do in these cases "[c]omplete bullshit"? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 10:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Core of the LQ guideline

I bring to the community's attention that SlimVirgin recently decided to delete the second half of the statement of why community consensus prefers logical quotation (part of the core statement that has a comment requesting and recommending that such issues be taken to the talk page first). Okay, so I reverted it, once. Perhaps I might have remarked explicitly in my edit summary on the desirability of taking changes to that core phrasing to the talk page and discussing them and achieving consensus before messing with it, but in the event my edit summary was rather more abbreviated than that. SlimVirgin re-deleted the passage, and Darkfrog has now also undercut the statement that LQ is consistent with the principle of minimal change.

Having done one revert, I'm not about to launch on a single-handed quest to Preserve the Passage (more perfect ego-lessness in service of Wikipedia is why I don't advertise my real-world identity); but if the community here does wish to retain control over the content of that section of the MOS, this would probably be a good time for the community to assert that control, and bring the issues back here to the talk page. --Pi zero (talk) 16:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Now that we have the FAQ, do we really need a line saying why Wikipedia uses LQ? And if we do, we must state opinions as opinions or as the Wikipedia consensuses that they are and not treat them as if they were proven facts. There is a widespread consensus in almost every academic community that AQ and BQ do not change source material in any meaningful way. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The community doesn't prefer LQ, Pi zero. The community almost never uses it. And it clearly isn't less prone to errors; it's more prone, because more complex. As the style manuals make clear, it requires a high degree of authorial precision. We shouldn't imply otherwise in the MoS. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I wish you wouldn't say it is more "complex". It is not. It is more demanding, but that is something different. Ozob (talk) 05:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I see it as a distinction without a difference, Ozob. Point is that it's more fiddly, requires more skill and thought, and requires access to the original sources, which Wikipedians often don't have for material others have added. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 05:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Well we could look at either LQ or AQ as being more simple depending on the observer's point of view. "Tuck in the commas"? Super simple. "Keep 'em in if they were in and out if they weren't"? Also looks pretty simple, at least on the surface. The big issue is that they require different attitudes toward the text. BQ and AQ treat words like words and LQ treats them as strings of characters. The deal is, though, that regardless of whether LQ is more simple it does require more instruction, in part because BQ and AQ are taught in schools and LQ is not. Therefore, the instructions have to be more elaborate to get results of similar quality. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) i've restored the longstanding previous text pending further discussion here on the talk page; i'd also favour eliminating the quote from Chicago as undue weight for one POV. i don't agree at all that "the community almost never uses it"; it's used regularly and unproblematically on the pages i frequent; and if someone makes a mistake with it it gets fixed without any brouhaha, just like other stylistic details. Sssoul (talk) 11:09, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I would consider "There is a Wikipedia consensus that logical punctuation is more in keeping with the principal of minimal change, less prone to ambiguity [etc. etc.]" as adequately truthful. The Chicago statement is interesting, but it is not necessary here. It would make a nice addition to the Wikipedia article on quotation marks, however. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:00, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Noetica's advice

User:Noetica is away from WP with a huge work deadline (like me, in fact). He sent me these comments on the current LQ debate. Tony (talk) 12:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

The facts as I see them:

1. Few sources independent of WP call the system "logical quotation", and none in print I know of do so. "Logical punctuation" is the far more common term, though this is normally used with broader meaning than our "logical quotation". An example of this broad use (from a fine book, of which I own a copy): "Logical+punctuation"

   An instance of "logical punctuation" narrowly meaning "logical quotation": "Logical+punctuation"

   And most importantly, the relevant excerpt from the most pertinent source of all (Trask's "Penguin Guide to Punctuation", 1997): [3] (R.L. Trask was an academic linguist who wrote authoritative reference works in linguistics, and much more. That excerpt is not quite the same as the printed version.)

2. The WP article that Logical quotation redirects to is Quotation mark, which gives no source for the term "logical quotation", nor any source that sets out the rules.
3. Discussion of the topic at WT:MOS hardly ever gives sources. It is full of opinion on both sides.
4. Logical quotation is decidedly more British than American. This is a real shame, since even many Americans who are willing to examine its claims dispassionately find it difficult to do so. And this British bias surely makes for poisoned politics.
5. Rigorous logical quotation is intrinsically better than the other extreme (the "American" or "conventional" system), but its implementation would need slight adjustment for robust and stable acceptance. Trask finds that British publishers apply it with "one curious exception". Well, my research shows that not all apply it with Trask's exception, and some of the best apply it with a different exception. Anyway, there is no reason WP should not also apply it with reasonable exceptions, except for the practical difficulties in expressing these in a Manual of Style.

Tony, some of the quotation seems to have gotten mangled. The second sentence of point 4 is a fragment, and the last point, point 5, mentions a next point. Ozob (talk) 12:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

With regard to point four, it's my understanding (and I have repeatedly tried to find that page again) that American computer programmers came up with LQ independently, calling it "datasafe quotes," and only later found out that British writers did something similar.

With regard to point five, someone has to prove it. No one ever has. What's really going on here is that a lot of people, Wikipedians, programmers and the vehement Trask, just don't like putting the commas inside. When people dislike something a lot, they tend to imagine "Oh, it's rude/incorrect/immoral to do it that way. Do it my way instead." The MoS not only allows LQ but bans American and British standard forms. To justify this, someone has to prove not only that LQ is good enough but that American and British standards create a real problem, not a hypothetical or imaginary problem. For example, single quotation marks mess with search engines. We can hit CTRL-F and observe this. It's not someone's personal preference that he or she has imposed on the rest of Wikipedia. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:46, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog, have you ever programmed a computer? You say that "[n]o one ever has" proved that logical punctuation is more accurate than other styles; but if you try programming, you will see the improvement right away. The computer's blind rigor insists that you tell it precisely what you want. Logical punctuation becomes unavoidable and obviously superior. It is only a small leap to go from the strict syntax of formal languages to the casual conventions of natural languages. If you appreciate the accuracy of logical punctuation in programming, you will appreciate it in writing as well. Ozob (talk) 13:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Our readers are not computers. They're human beings. Wikipedia articles aren't computer programming; they're writing. If there is one rule of English that doesn't change over time, it's "Write for your audience."

Writing is about communication. LQ does not help me communicate any better, and it's a hassle to use. It's as if someone told me that I could save on gas if I learned how to drive stick instead of use an automatic transmission. "Well, it looks harder to use than my automatic transmission. How much would I save on gas?" I ask. "Oh, a lot! But only when you drive on brick roads," the person replies. "Oh... I hardly ever drive on brick roads. I mean, I've seen a few, but I almost always drive on paved or dirt or gravel roads." "But stick shift is so much more natural of a way to drive." "Okay, great, you like it more. But I like my automatic more." "Well you're wrong for liking it more. You must be in league with my mean old driving teacher!" "Um, what?" etc. etc. If LQ only helps when I'm writing for computers, which I hardly ever do, then I have no reason not to go with AQ, which is both easier to use and more appealing to me.

I remember going to a neuroscience seminar with NYAS. The premise was that visual artists, over thousands of years, had discovered by trial and error how the human brain processes visual images. (V.S. Ramachandran spoke; the man's hilarious in person.) Logically, we shouldn't be able to look at three lines and tell that they're supposed to be a woman's back. Logically, we shouldn't be able to identify shapes if the colors don't match the lines. Logically, we shouldn't be able to understand visual or verbal metaphors. Logically, Barbie should look like a freak. We shouldn't assume that human brains and computers process input the same way. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The neuroscience seminar story is interesting (I'm not being sarcastic), but in application to this situation... are you suggesting that long-standing practices are long-standing because they're the most natural way? Seems to me a long-standing practice is long-standing because its stability is preserved by some long-standing cause, but naturalness is not the only cause that can be long-standing. The example so classic it's just about a cliche is the QWERTY keyboard. --Pi zero (talk) 16:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

No, I am not suggesting that the most long-standing methods are necessarily best. Some methods get to be long-standing because they're good, but it's not always so. I am suggesting that just because something works for computers doesn't mean that it works with the human brain, which often behaves in counterintuitive ways. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

In addition to "write for your audience," we have another rule at Wikipedia, which is "write rules for your editors," often known wrongly as "descriptive not prescriptive," but the point is clear. We have to reflect what is actually being done, so long as it's not harmful, and this is where our MoS must differ from all other manuals of style. We can't have an MoS try to impose a system very few editors use or understand. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 18:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with you there, Slim. Because the MoS's purpose is specifically prescriptive, we should prefer linguistic prescriptivism to linguistic descriptivism. This isn't a writeup of a linguistic study or even a Wikipedia article and we should own that. While I agree that we should choose our instructions carefully, based on the needs of our editors and readers, we should phrase those instructions as the instructions that they are. That is how they will be interpreted in any case. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not a question of linguistic descriptivism; it is a question of our own policies -- an entirely different issue. It is Wikipedia policy that our policies and guidelines must describe best practice on Wikipedia, must reflect what good editors are actually doing. A discussion on this page can't change that. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 19:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

To me, WP:MOS#Stability of articles' emphasis on "guideline-defined style" suggests, without explicitly saying so, that a non-guideline-defined style should be prescriptively changed to a guideline-defined style. Do you consider your philosophy to be consistent with that paragraph, and do you think that paragraph should be changed? Art LaPella (talk) 21:52, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Can't speak for Slim, but that is what I understand the MoS to mean. I've seen other editors interpret it this way as well. It isn't that it would be bad for the MoS to mean something else. It's that it would have to explicitly state this other meaning. (If only one style is allowed, say so. If one style is preferred but both are allowed, say so, etc.) Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:52, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

• This old argument that a style guide should be either prescriptive or descriptive? Nooooo. Every style guide is both, no matter what it claims. Tony (talk) 22:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree (I think every policy is both, no matter what it claims), but the MoS on this particular issue currently isn't—it's merely prescriptive. Most editors use aesthetic punctuation. And most editors who believe they're using LQ aren't; they're using a made-up version. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 22:50, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but a style guide can be mostly prescriptive, mostly descriptive, or anything in between. It's hard to find things which absorb all the light which is shone on them (try pointing a laser pointer on a C# piano key or on the picture on an ace of spades; you will still be able to see its spot), but not even the most anally retentive pedant would consider that a good reason to refuse to call a C# piano key or the picture on an ace of spades "black". ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 16:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a less allegorical explanation of what I mean. Sure, if by "prescriptive" you mean "nothing is relevant" and by "descriptive" you mean "everything is correct", there'd better be no such thing; but that's not what prescriptivists themselves mean by "prescriptive" and what descriptivists themselves mean by "descriptive". ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 19:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Descriptivism does not mean that if somebody somewhere says it, that makes it OK—at least, it doesn't mean that yet. Descriptivists claim that once something gains a certain amount of usage in reputable publications, that makes it OK. However, the subjectivity inherent in this so-called standard is influenced to some degree by each descriptivist's individual notion of what is simply a common mistake (based on residual prescriptivism) and what publications are reputable (likewise based on residual prescriptivism). Formerly, all authorities on language and style were prescriptivists—although what they prescribed was based on what they read in reputable publications. The not-so-clear distinction between prescriptivism and descriptivism is, in my opinion, mostly a matter of purpose. A prescriptivist believes that particular usages are right, wrong, better, or worse, and guides writers accordingly. A descriptivist claims merely to be describing the prevalence of usage, and to guide writers based on that. I favor prescriptivists because they at least try to teach you how to write better—and I certainly do believe that some writing is better than others. Descriptivists tell you how to write like the lowest "acceptable" common denominator among writers. The watershed was Webster's Third New International Dictionary; the English language has been sliding downhill ever since its publication.—Finell 20:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe; but on what grounds is splitting infinitives, ending sentences with propositions, or using accusative pronouns after the copula "bad writing"? Some of the advice by, e.g., Strunk and White, has been routinely flouted for centuries by practically all writers, including Strunk and White themselves. At least, descriptivists do have justifications for what they say. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 21:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

There are occasions where splitting an infinitive is less awkward than the alternatives. Ditto ending a sentence with a preposition (although fewer occasions). Even in those instances, one usually obtains a better sentence by rewriting it to remove either temptation. On the other hand, the vast majority of split infinitives and prepositions that end sentences are the result of carelessness or lack of knowledge. Most of these sentences are improved by un-splitting the infinitive or moving the preposition—and by copy editing the rest of that author's writing. For most Wikipedians, cautioning against split infinitives, ending sentences with prepositions, and the passive voice (but with examples of good PV usage) will do much more good than harm.

I vividly remember my 5th grade teacher telling the class, "You can't start a sentence with because. I immediately rattled of proper sentences that began with because (yes, I was always like this). She took me aside and said that she announced that "rule" because most 5th grade students don't know how to do that. Her real objection was to sentence fragments, masquerading as sentences, that begin with because: e.g., Because it was pretty. I have overcompensated for this trauma by starting too many sentences with because, where it is grammatically correct, but is not the best structure for the sentence.—Finell 01:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Finell, there is no rule nowadays against ending sentences with prepositions. Good writers do it all the time. Ditto avoiding passive voice and starting sentences with but, and, or because. Everything depends on the context. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 02:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Complexity of LQ

Someone told me off above for calling LQ "complex," so I'm offering this example of LQ from the Cambridge handbook as an example of why it's suitable only for professional editors who are doing it all the time, and way too complex for Wikipedia.

Good luck to anyone who wants to take time to understand this, but please allow the rest of us to get on with our lives. :-) SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 21:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

It's poorly expressed, plus a blooper: the "follow" should clearly be "precede". Disappointing for a prestigious text. Tony (talk) 22:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the blooper. I understand the phrase "as in the second example below " to refer only to "unless it forms part of the quotation".--Boson (talk) 23:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see what is supposed to be so complicated (although the explanation may be poorly expressed); this seems to be a simple case of: if the punctuation was not in the original, don't put it inside the quotation marks.

Since we are dealing with encyclopaedia articles, any conventions for fiction should seldom apply, and most quotations are probably from written text rather than spoken dialogue, so a possible problem in understanding the Cambridge handbook caused by having to equate a pause with a comma does not apply.

Some editors, above, seem to be making a distinction between "logical quotation" and British conventions. Is this distinction being retained here, or are the two being equated?--Boson (talk) 23:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Boson, did you read the example? "'Father,' he said, 'is looking well today,'" is not an example of the punc being in the original. Look, no point in arguing. Point is that it's so complex even the style guides seem not to be sure of how to use it. There is no such thing as "British convention"; it's not a British/American thing. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I did read the example and I must still be missing something. What I read was a distinction, under "LQ", between

1. 'Father', he said, 'is looking well today.' (where there is no comma inside the quotation marks, because the original sentence is "Father is looking well today." with no comma, because Father is the subject) and

2. 'Father,' he said, 'you're looking well today.' (where there is a comma inside the quotation marks, because the original sentence is "Father, you're looking well today." with a comma, because "Father" is used to address the person concerned.

It is then explained, as I understand it, that logical quotation is conventionally not used in fiction published by Cambridge, and this is illustrated using a further example:

3. 'Father,' he said, 'is looking well today.' (where the is a comma inside the quotation marks, as explained in the preceding sentence, because Cambridge don't use strict logical quotation in fiction).

The Cambridge handbook also goes on to say that the fiction convention may be retained in non-fiction works if the author has used it consistently. The explanation is complicated because Cambridge is describing not just "logical quotation" but various styles, as well as explaining how to deal with authors who have different ideas. --Boson (talk) 10:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

There has been a British punctuation system separate from the American one ever since Fowler first championed the idea. He did call it "logical" at the time. However, what we're calling "logical punctuation" AKA "datasafe quotes" was developed independently by computer programmers. LQ and BQ almost always give the same results. However, LQ treats quoted material as strings of characters while BQ treats material as words. While BQ means for people to place commas and periods outside for fragments, short-form works, words-as-words, etc, it is my understanding that LQ may allow them either inside or outside depending on whether or not the source happened to place a period or comma next to the fragment, short-form work or word in question. With BQ, usage depends on the nature of the quoted material and with LQ it does not.

I don't have a source on the above; these are the impressions that I've gotten from reading about the histories of both styles.

Before I learned all this, I asked "Why do American English articles have to be written in a British style?" and received the answer "It's not British at all." Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog, could you provide a source who uses the terms as you do (these or any other terms in future)? I have not seen anything called "British quotation." I have close to 10 style guides here on my shelves and none of them mention it. We're confused enough without introducing yet more variations unless they're recognized styles. :) SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs}

"BQ" is my own abbreviation, SlimV. The British wouldn't call their system "British punctuation" any more than Americans call theirs "American punctuation." Most people call either "what we do with commas." What I know, from general looking around, is 1. the British standard style differed from the American one long before computers became common (Fowler's The King's English) and 2. computer programmers came up with what we've been calling "LQ" independently for the purpose of preserving literal strings. So LQ and BQ looking the same most of the time would be analogous to evolutionary convergence. If we find a solid source that trumps this, then go for it. But I would hold that the argument that LQ isn't part of a specific regional tradition holds weight. It's not standard in any major form of English. That's part of the problem. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we should leave computers, British, and American out of this, because it's making things needlessly complicated. We have two systems. (1) Commas and periods precede closing quotation marks; colons, semicolons, question marks, and exclamation marks follow closing quotation marks unless they are part of the original quote. This is often called aesthetic or typesetters' punctuation. And (2) only punctuation marks that appear in the original quoted material should be included within quotation marks; everything else follows the closing quotation marks, with occasional exceptions that have to be decided by the editor. This is often called logical quotation or punctuation. Please don't introduce any other issues, or made-up names, because the conversation is already very difficult to follow. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 04:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You are still fixating on the construction of nationality around style. I don't give a toss that the MoS is written entirely in AmEng, as long as consistent; nor should you start flag-waving about punctuation placement. We need to get rid of the notion of redundancy in formal "text," and migrating a WP comma or period into a one-word quotation or word as word is a bizarre "practice." Tony (talk) 00:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well Tony, why do we need to give up the practice of allowing commas and periods inside word-as-word and short-form-work quotations? It does not seem to hinder the articles or impair the reader experience in any way. American punctuation annoys programmers, but why should a programmer's personal preferences be held up as more important than a writer's or editor's? Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

A few issues.

Inappropriate examples. Something easy, first. If we are to agree on changes to the current MoS text, the examples need to be rethought—they look as though they're taken from a Mills and Boon novel, not from a formal encyclopedic register. Martha asked, "Are you coming?" ... which article is that from? This is particularly troublesome because direct quotations in fiction all over the English-speaking world tend to shove in a final comma before the final quote-mark to complement the "rhythm" comma that precedes the oral quotation (Martha asked,). I suppose the preceding comma arose to assist readers to insert a pause as they read aloud (or, regrettably, if they vocalise the text internally); but I've never worked out why oral quotations in fiction need a complementary comma just before the final quote-mark, as if to "balance" the preceding one). It's a mangled compromise.

Comma as redundant clutter. It is most confusing to readers to see "precision," in the very sentence that explains LQ. This practice is referred to as logical quotation, and it requires "extreme authorial precision," according to The Chicago Manual of Style. This brings up a neglected aspect of the decision-making process in LQ if is to work properly. Why, I ask you, would a sane editor ever want to include the comma after that three-word quotation? It's from oral-speak, a 1950s Enid Blyton novel infecting a quotation from CMOS. We seem to have become stuck on a simplistic boundary: if an item of punctuation just happens to appear after the words you want to quote, shove it in irrespective of whether it's relevant in the context. This is despite the universal practice of constraining quoted material to the most relevant portion, even within the original sentence. Now, that comma clearly does come after "extreme authorial precision" in CMOS (I trust whoever inserted it), but just why we need to bother our readers by telling them this fact is beyond me. We could equally have a system of symbols that tells our readers how many words beyond the quotation the next comma is ... but ... who cares? <FLAG: in the original, a comma comes five words after the quotation, and a period eight words after.> I don't wish to know what part of a sentence or clause "extreme authorial precision" comes from in the original: it is totally redundant information. By analogy, if the quotation were positioned at the end of the MoS sentence: ... CMOS recommends "extreme authorial precision,"., no one of either bent would accept the juddering of comma and period; instead, the internal advocates would write "extreme authorial precision.", falsifying the original punctuation in defiance of the fact that the WP sentence generated the period in the first place. LQ, if logical, writes "extreme authorial precision".

Proposed text. I suggest this, with a couple of clear examples worked in: Punctuation at the end of a quotation that is incorporated into a Wikipedia sentence should be included within the quotation marks only if it is relevant to the meaning of the quotation in the context. The practice by many editors of placing a final period (full-stop) before the closing quote-mark for a quotation of at least a phrase, which itself comes at the end of a Wikipedia sentence, is usually regarded as relevant, in this sense; however, this should be done only where the final period is present in the source. [example or two] Quotation-final commas, colons and semicolons are rarely relevant and should not normally be placed before the final quote-mark. [example or two] Simple as that: default no internal, unless it's necessary to convey it from the original, with the exception that a WP period can be migrated across to complete a quotation that itself finishes a sentence. Most skillful quoting controls the exact boundaries of the quoted portion, anyway. No interlibrary loans necessary to check final punctuation—just remove it if you're unsure and it doesn't affect the sense. Tony (talk) 00:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony, including a period does not falsify anything. It is not always in keeping with LQ, but no reasonable reader will interpret "precision [period]" vs. "precision [comma]" as a change in meaning.

LQ, as phrased, would also seem to permit any punctuation inside the quotation marks if that mark would also be part of the Wikipedia sentence: "I ordered a martini," he said, "an appletini, and a beer for the three of us."

But all this is seeming. If we want to know what LQ really requires, then we should do is consult an outside source. With all of us making all these guesses, we're bound to end up making things more complicated. I might be able to get a look at an ACS style guide, but it would take a few days. I would rather just switch to AQ and BQ, both of which have many sources readily available online, but even things that aren't worth doing should be done right. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Now, let me get this right. You like this: "For example, Scott Greer (2007:183) argued that “secession seems unlikely” in the Catalan case, because ...". And you'd want this if the word order were changed: "For example, Scott Greer (2007:183) argued that in the Catalan case “secession seems unlikely,” because ...". Fake fake fake. It actually doesn't matter whether there's a comma in Greer's text: it is utterly irrelevant to the honest portrayal of his text. Tony (talk) 01:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

If LQ is "place a punctuation mark inside the quotation marks if it is part of the quoted material and outside if it is not," then your second example is 100% in keeping with LQ.

A comma does not become fake when it is moved. It's still a comma and still indicates the same thing, a break or pause in the sentence. There was a break in the original; there is a break on Wikipedia. A comma is needed and it has the same effect whether it is inside the quotation marks or not. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

And with regard to your actual question, I like AQ. I accept BQ as appropriate for pieces written in British English, gives them a nice authentic feel. I don't care for LQ. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony, what would you think of a much shorter alternative proposal?

On Wikipedia, do not place trailing punctuation marks inside the quotation marks unless they are known to be part of the quoted material. If they are known to be part of the quoted material, it is permissible to place them inside the quotation marks.

End of paragraph. If anything more has to be said, make it crystal clear that it is explanatory (or illustrative, if its example), not any sort of addendum; we need to avoid encouraging the misapprehension that LQ is complicated. --Pi zero (talk) 02:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC

I agree, Pi. Your proposed text is admirably simple (I'd go further by removing the first two words), and is almost the essence of it. However, advising against "this," in which WP's comma migrates inside the quotation, word as word, or song title, is essential to the whole point of LQ. A comma after "this", whether it is in the original or not, is utterly irrelevant to the meaning of the quotation or the overal sense of the WP sentence. The WP principle of minimal fiddle with original sources suggests that if there is no comma in the original, it should not be inserted. Plain logic suggests that even if there is a comma after "this" in the original, the ambit of the quotation should not be widened to include it if its presence in the WP sentence is redundant, or indeed misleading. To include the comma just raises doubt as to whether it does exist in the original, whereas to exclude it and place it instead in the WP part of the sentence renders such doubt irrelevant (unless, on such a rare occasion I can't even conjure it up, we really need to know that a comma follows "this" in the original. The comma is generated in all but outlier case in the WP sentence, which is where it should remain. It's stress o'clock here with RL work, so I'll try to get back to this in about 11 hours. Tony (talk) 02:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I prefer to keep the "On Wikipedia" for any Wikipedia practice that is specific to Wikipedia rather than standard elsewhere. If nothing else, it will head off people who think "Oh! The MoS wrote this rule wrong. I'd better fix it."

As for tucking commas and periods inside words-as-words and short-form works, it does zero harm to the reader experience. We have no reason to ban it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

How about:

Do not place trailing punctuation marks inside the quotation marks unless they are known to be part of the quoted material (in which case it is permissible to place them inside the quotation marks).

?  HWV258.  04:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Because, without the second sentence, the new text would fail to address the specific issue that Slim brought up a few days ago: people changing inside punctuation to outside punctuation even when the text was already LQ-compliant. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about that, but I do know that the word "unless" makes the second sentence redundant.  HWV258.  05:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What Darkfrog mentioned isn't what I had in mind, although certainly if anyone actually is under the misapprehension that the punctuation always goes outside, the second sentence would eliminate that. (And if we eliminate the possibility, then we can just walk away from that whole issue.)

I believe the second sentence is crucial in order to preclude, explicitly and clearly, the misapprehension that putting the punctuation inside is mandatory when allowed. Without the clear explicit second sentence, some people would fall victim to that misapprehension, even though no such mandate occurs in the first sentence and therefore theoretically the second sentence is redunant — because people are not computers. --Pi zero (talk) 05:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

BTW, I prefer the two-sentence form to a single more complex sentence, because I think the two-sentence form is very, very unlikely to be misunderstood. --Pi zero (talk) 06:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'll leave it to others, but I'll always lean towards making the MOS as (logically) concise as possible. That way, it's easier to find and read information. Don't forget that other editors (who have the time to digest the information in the MOS) can tidy-up issues that an original editor "misunderstood".  HWV258.  06:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) for the record, i don't find the excerpt from the Cambridge handbook that Slim Virgin posted at all difficult to follow; it mainly addresses issues that aren't especially common on Wikipedia, but it's quite clear.
also for the record, i protest Darkfrog's assertion that adding extraneous punctuation to titles "does zero harm to the reader experience." it may not impair your experience, but that's plainly not universal; that's part of the reason we keep having this discussion.
Pi zero, the amended wording you're proposing sounds promising, but will everyone seeking guidance on this understand what "trailing punctuation" means? can that be clarified? or maybe adding examples (preferably ones that are typical of Wikipedia-style prose) would make the meaning sufficiently clear. an example or two involving titles instead of quotations would also be helpful. 09:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Gosh, in Italy I don't think people are ever taught not to put commas inside quotation marks (at least, I can't recall being taught that); it just doesn't occur to us to do otherwise (unless we are also discussing the comma itself, which seldom happens unless discussing computer science or grammar). Only when quoting full sentences we include a capital letter at the beginning and a full stop at the end. How is that any more "complex" than typesetter's punctuation? With it, people need to be explicitly taught to put commas and all periods inside... (I don't think that if the punctuation which is typical in American English is used in articles written in American English the sky would fall; but saying that such punctuation is "simpler" than the "logical" one sounds bogus to me.)

And what is so mysterious about the Cambridge Handbook excerpt? I had interpreted it the very same way as Boson did before even reading his post, and I still can't see how it can be seriously interpreted any other way.

And to address the problem of implausible examples and the issue that guidelines should describe the best current practice, may I suggest that any example added to the MoS must be copied and pasted from a Featured Article which was promoted or last reviewed less than two years ago, from the revision as of when the nomination or last review was closed. (Serious. For plausible but rare issues I'd also allow Good Articles, but such specialized issues should only go to MoS subpages and not to its main page.) ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 11:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of our writing is to communicate, and placing commas and periods inside in these cases does nothing to impede that purpose. That is what I mean by "zero harm." (Example: Do you think that the period is part of the term or do you think it's the closing punct for the sentence? Do you think that the term I've just used here is essentially different from the one I used above? No and no, Sssoul. You seem to have understood me perfectly.) If the argument against American usage is that it's "not universal," then why is there nothing raised about LQ not being universal?

"Put periods and commas inside adjacent quotation marks." That is pretty darn simple. "Put periods and commas inside under X circumstances and outside under Y circumstances" doesn't sound very complicated, but it is more complicated than the first one. But regardless of whether LQ is more complicated, we can see that it is more difficult to use. It's also non-standard English. Those two reasons are more important than a moderate increase in complexity.

I don't think we should stop allowing MoS editors to write examples from scratch. Requiring people to comb through the FAs potentially stretches a few minutes' work to hours. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

It is definitely not "non-standard English". It is rare-ish in American English, but not in British English. And if the problem is that it's too difficult, you can always say "when in doubt, put the punctuation outside", which is never incorrect (you can quote up to the last character before the final punctuation). ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 17:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I should have said "non-standard American English." (There seems to be some question as to whether LQ and BQ are different systems or not.) However, if 99% of the American English style guides (not to mention American English writers) say "put them inside," then it is accurate to say that putting them outside is non-standard. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

A few thoughts on examples.

• I originally admitted in my proposal the possibility of examples, despite being very leery of the danger of instruction bloat, because it seemed some illustration might indeed make crystal clear what is meant by "trailing punctuation" (and the word "trailing" was an innovation I'd introduced, not found in the current MOS wording, because I didn't want the optionality in the second sentence to make it sound as if it was permissible to omit punctuation from somewhere in the middle of the quote). Three examples should suffice for this purpose: one where the trailing punctuation has to be left out because it's not part of the quoted passage, and two where it is part of the quoted passage and the Wikipedia editor chooses to put it inside or outside.
• Something that made me uncomfortable about the examples first put up was that they didn't explicitly show what the original source material was, and the whole point is the relationship between the source and the Wikipedia text. It seems like a good way to keep this suite of three examples from becoming complicated (and therefore confusing, and therefore defeating the purpose of having the examples at all) would be to have just one source passage and then three different Wikipedia sentences that quote it, illustrating the three cases I've named. Unfortunately, this would almost certainly preclude the otherwise excellent idea of having all the examples be cut and pasted from recent Featured Articles — thought we might at least borrow and adapt something from a recent FA in order to stave off excessive insipidity.
• Although we can't illustrate everything that could possibly come up, and shouldn't try (instruction bloat), titles are probably a common and central enough case that they should be illustrated. That's two examples: one in which the punctuation is outside because it's not part of the title, and one in which the punctuation is inside because it is part of the title.
• In accordance with Tony's suggestion, it seems reasonable, after those illustrations, to remark that the editor is permitted to exercise common sense in leaving punctuation outside when it does occur in the quoted material but its occurrence there isn't germane to the reason it's being quoted (or some variant on that remark), with an illustration of a case where you're quoting a single word, as he suggests.

That would make a grand total of six examples. Which seems to me probably just at the extreme upper end of the tolerable range. --Pi zero (talk) 14:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds prudent to me, Pi zero. Because this passage will be about how to translate other styles into LQ, the pre-Wikipedia text should be provided. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

It is actually my intention that the passage be simply an original text and examples quoting parts of that original text. The purpose of those first three examples is to illustrate, in the most perfectly clear manner possible, the basic functioning of the style — a purpose that I believe would fail miserably if the illustration weren't unremittingly straightforward.

As a separate issue, I also believe that it would be a serious mistake to bloat the set of examples for the sake of illustrating quoting an original text that we only know about from a third-party source (the situation from the Avatar article); that is just a straightforward application of the basic principles. The MOS section needs to be only about the basic principles; anything else leads to instruction bloat and the illusion of complexity. If it is truly necessary to mention that issue at all, it absolutely should not be allowed to entail more than one solitary example; there is, after all, only one very simple point that one might justify mentioning, which is that Wikipedia is attributing punctuation inside the quotation marks to the original text, reagardless of whether we got our information about that original text through a middleman. We would just show a third-party text telling us about an original text using typesetter's quotation, illustrate that we would not attribute the punctuation to the original text, and be done with it.

This also recalls an important detail to keep in mind (one that had slipped my mind for a while, in the press of events): throughout this section of the MOS, we should not refer to the party being quoted as the "source", because that confuses some people due to parallelism with the Wikipedia term of art "reliable source". Now that I've been reminded, in this post I'm carefully saying "original text", which seems to me to be working very well. --Pi zero (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The discussion so far

I've compiled what I can find about this issue from the MoS archives, and placed it on one page at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation. It's probably not everything, but it's a fair chunk of it, over 115,000 words. I've added it to the See also box above too. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow, thanks! Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

References needed

One thing that struck me reading through the archives is how people are adding their own opinions and using their own terms, and it's leading to a lot of confusion. I suggest that when we discuss the punctuation/quotation issue from now on, we use only terms and opinions found in reliable sources, and cite them if requested. We should do that with the MoS itself too. That will radically cut down the amount of repetitive discussion (some of it quite misleading). SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 22:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I've already changed quotation mark's references to "logical quotation" to "logical punctuation" as per Noetica-via-Tony's sources. However, for brevity's sake, I'm going to keep calling it LQ on the talk page.

What seems to be worth investigating here is whether LQ is another word for "British style" or whether it is a third, similar-but-separate system. Many of LQ's supporters claim vehemently that it isn't British, and I've come to believe that computer programmers invented it independently and then only later discovered that the British did something similar. However, upon finding and reexamining the source that led me to believe so, I found that that was only the story of one small group of people and not the programming community.

Here's what we know: 1. The British standard style differed from the American standard style long before computers became common, probably because of Fowler's championing of the "grammatical rule" (which I mistakenly called the "logical rule" earlier). 2. Computer programmers like LQ because of its ability to preserve literal strings. 3. Actual British style, as we've seen from the Butcher Handbook and elsewhere, differs in places from Wikipedia's "Put all punctuation inside if it is part of the quoted material and outside if it is not." However, some style books, usually the ones that only mention British styles in passing, describe British usage in a very similar way. The Copyeditor's Handbook is one: [4]

If it really is the same system, then the MoS should state clearly that it's preferred a British style and we should stop answering the question "Why are American English articles punctuated in British English?" with "They're not." However, if LQ really is a separate system, then we need to ask ourselves why we're using something that's not any kind of standard English on both British and American articles.

Also, if LQ and BQ really are the same thing, then we suddenly have Cambridge and Fowler and a host of other proven references whose impartial word we can apply to how to deal with the sentence fragments and other pitfalls under discussion above. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

3. Actual British style, as we've seen from the Butcher Handbook and elsewhere, differs in places from Wikipedia's "Put all punctuation inside if it is part of the quoted material and outside if it is not." I don't think we saw that at all, unless you count the aside on a convention for works of fiction, which does not apply to Wikipedia. The two examples of non-fiction quoted showed exactly "Put all punctuation inside if it is part of the quoted material and outside if it is not." That does not mean that Cambridge always agrees with what Wikipedia says on the subject. --Boson (talk) 06:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes I do count it as a difference because the MoS does not make a distinction between fiction and non-fiction. The question is whether this means that LQ and BQ (my abbreviations) are two different styles or whether the MoS was only oversimplifying things. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

WP is not fiction, so why would the MoS concern with what's done in fiction? (Note that it doesn't say "when discussing fiction".) ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I am simply pointing out how the instructions on WP:LQ as it existed until a week or so ago differ from the content of British style guides. This is for the purpose of exploring whether BQ and LQ are two names for the same system (meaning that the differences are the result of oversimplification), whether LQ is something that BQ includes but does not limit itself to or whether they are essentially different systems that happen to often give the same results.Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog, I have to ask you again to stop making up terms. There is no such thing as "British quotation" over and above logical punctuation. And no one calls it "logical quotation" that I can see. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 06:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

If a system has its origins in Britain and is used in Britain by the overwhelming majority of British writers while the overwhelming majority of American writers use something else, then my calling that system "British" and the other one "American" does not constitute me making things up. Or are you objecting to my calling it "punctuation" rather than "style"? Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

What system? You are claiming there is some system that is not LP and that you call BQ. Please stop making things up. :) British journalists and fiction writers use traditional punctuation. I'm British and I use it. It doesn't divide down nationalist lines the way you want it to, and why would you want it to? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

BQ is an abbreviation that I am using for "the British way of handling punctuation with quotation marks," which certainly overlaps with LP and may in fact be the same thing.

I'm not maintaining that British people never use the American system or that Americans never use the British system. Just because Americans also drink English Breakfast tea doesn't mean we have to change the name. However, if the Chicago Manual of Style calls one system British and the other system American, then I think it should be safe for me to do it.[5] [6] [7] Darkfrog24 (talk) 07:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It is called "logical punctuation," according to the sources, and I'm asking you here to stick to the sources. There is no such thing as BQ that I'm aware of. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The Chicago MoS calls it "British." You yourself made an edit to that effect in quotation mark.[8] It may be that it has more than one name. Darkfrog24 (talk) 07:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you not reading what I write? You are claiming there are three styles, BQ, LQ and traditional. But there are TWO. That's all I'm going to say here, because this is impossible. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

No, Slim, that is not what I am claiming. There is a general American style, a general British style, and I've been asking about the assumption that BQ and LQ are the same thing/two different things. Because if they're not, then they're both two names for the same thing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 07:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• DarkFrog, here we go again with the "us and them" theory. Both systems are used across all anglophone countries with varying emphasis. I'm tiring of the flag-waving. Tony (talk) 07:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony, the only flag I've been waving since day one is the flag of correct and standard English. If, as has been asserted, LQ and BQ are the same thing, and if, as has been cited, reputable style guides call said system "British," then we should accept that "British" is an acceptable thing to call it, even if it is not the only acceptable thing to call it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 07:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Please stop. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Here is a reference: Edmond H. Weiss (2005), The elements of international English style: a guide to writing correspondence, reports, technical documents, and internet pages for a global audience, ISBN 9780765615725. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

But what does it show, and what is the point? This is something Darkfrog hasn't been able to answer: what is the purpose of trying to divide punctuation along nationalist lines? It doesn't help us to understand the systems. It doesn't help us to decide which, if either, the MoS should recommend. Not to mention that it's often plain wrong.

When I started editing the MoS, we had a small group of editors (mostly two, in fact, but they edited enough for an army), who were also determined to split everything into America versus the world. We had recommendations for American English, English English, Canadian English, Irish English, European Union English, and even ... Maltese English! This is when I was introduced to the idea that, as a Brit, I had never used British English, illiterate fool that I was! I should never have been spelling recognise as recognize, or writing 15 February as February 15, or using the serial comma, or failing to call it the Oxford comma, or placing periods inside quotation marks—and heaven forfend that I should call those anything but full stops.

It would be wonderful if we could one day evolve into caring about clarity and communication, no matter where it comes from. Period. Full stop!! :) SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 09:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• This is an appropriate reference being from a professional style guide for works of our sort: internet pages written for a global audience. Its main point is that the use of quotation marks should be avoided. It also provides some examples of terminology. Colonel Warden (talk) 10:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  Are you really endorsing his suggestion to throw the baby away with the bathwater (i.e. use no quotation marks at all), or am I missing your real point? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• The author's point seems quite sound. Consider the matter which seems to have provoked this round of disputation. This was a question about the way in which a quotation from an MTV interview of the director of a recent movie should be presented. The most sensible answer is that we should not be quoting such material at all because this a primary source of a promotional sort. If the exact expression of the quotation is so significant then this indicates that editors are engaging in OR and primary journalism rather than summarising the matter in an encyclopedic way. We should write in a way that is crystal clear to an international readership. As quoting tends to promote improper inference, cherry-picking and confusion, it should be avoided and then the issue of punctuation becomes moot. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

But if we did not get direct quotations from relevant individuals from articles, then where would we get them? It isn't as if the Wikipedian went and conducted the interview. That would be primary journalism. On this particular issue, I concur with A. di M. This is a baby-bathwater situation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Most of this discussion has nothing to do with the MoS. V or NOR would be the place to discuss whether or not to quote someone. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

← Just because 16% of Britons pronounce adult with the stress on -dult and 12% of Americans pronounce it with the stress on ad-, these don't stop being the typical American pronunciation and the typical British pronunciation respectively, do they? FWIW, I'm not making the numbers up. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The stress on the second syllable is not what I regard as typical British pronunciation. I don't see how 16 percent of people doing it would make it so. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 21:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Re-read what I wrote more carefully... I wasn't calling the final-stressed version typically British; quite the reverse. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 21:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Lots of Americans spell it "theatre." That doesn't mean that it's not the British spelling. Lots of people all over the world don't limit themselves to cheek-pecks, but we don't have to stop calling it "French kissing." People generally understand that the "Spanish flu" wasn't an evil plot inflicted on the world by people who pronounce "Velazquez" with a lisp, but the article on the 1918 flu pandemic lists the term as the "common" name for the event.

As for whether or not I am the one "making up" the practice of referring to British and American styles as such, let's take a look at the Purdue University Writing Lab,[9], the Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed.), [10] [11] [12] the Chicago Manual of Style again (15th ed online),[13] [14] and the Writer's Block Web Resource for Communication Professionals (also mentions "Canadian style").[15]

What we can see here is that even if the terms are wrong—and I don't find them to be—they are nevertheless a widespread and readily understandable. Frankly, I think the non-grammar/punct-enthusiasts who go "What the heck is typographmical punctuation?" will appreciate "Oh, the style that I/my pen pal in the U.S. was taught in school."

From what you say about those two editors way back when, Slim V, it sounds like it's possible to take country-based names too far. However, that doesn't mean that we should omit them entirely or that anyone who draws a distinction between British and American English practices has some diabolical ulterior motive. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

We've filled up a lot of talk space debating what to call AQ, BQ, LQ or whatever. If we're concerned that the word "British" might cause a war, it would help if alternative names were proposed. Otherwise, we would have to say "the system that we aren't calling British punctuation" every time we refer to it. Hmm, how about "TSTWACBP"?Art LaPella (talk) 18:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It's usually called "logical punctuation," when it's given a name. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 20:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Slim V, you are the one who asked for sources. I've given you sources that refer to the practice in question as "British." Claiming or implying that the two forms are not connected to British English and American English would be just as false as claiming that all Americans use American style and that all British writers use British style. Surely you don't mean that only sources that reinforce your own views are acceptable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Its name is not British. Its name, insofar as it has one, is logical punctuation. If you were to find a thousand sources who called it "bloody confusing," that would not be its name. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 21:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it is also named "logical punctuation," but if the reputable style guides call it "British style," then referring to it as "British punctuation" is correct. It's also common and readily understandable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The relevant part

Separate from any discussion of the way people speak on the talk page, we should probably note that the MoS itself does not need to mention the name of the style in question. "On Wikipedia, place punctuation [like this]. Wikipedia uses this system because [reasons]," gets the instructions across to the reader without impediment. So our discussion, while it might turn up something useful, need not be considered urgent. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

That's a good idea! Then no one has to argue about nomenclature, or about any resemblance Wikipedia's guideline may have to a style used in Great Britain.—Finell 00:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think WP:LQ does need to say something like "You may have been taught otherwise, but ...", or Americans won't take it seriously. Whom should they believe, some website called Wikipedia that's full of typos and vandals, or their own education? I was taught that the quote mark goes after the comma or period, and I wasn't taught there was any alternative. So if WP:LQ had been the first thing I had read on Wikipedia, it would have looked as wrong as saying "The Sun goes around the Earth". I could only have concluded that a manual of style must be something written by people as unaware of high school English as whoever wrote "it's inital" here. To clarify, that doesn't make LQ wrong; it means that LQ is likely to be laughed off if we don't address this problem. Art LaPella (talk) 02:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

That overlooks the fact that the advice to use logical punctuation is already ignored by most Wikipedians. Also, I'm not American, and I was taught to use traditional punctuation, so the division along nationalist lines doesn't work. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 03:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The entire Manual of Style is ignored by most Wikipedians. Curly quotes, for instance, can be found in most any featured article, although a minority enforces some parts of the Manual. Making the Manual more user-friendly might help bridge the gap. OK, so I shouldn't have said "Americans", but that word doesn't occur in my suggested change, and your comment only broadens its rationale. Do you agree with that change? Art LaPella (talk) 05:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

How about "This practice may differ from standard English, but please use it anyway" or "Although this practice is not generally accepted in the U.S., it is common in the U.K. and preferred by computer programmers" with a link to quotation marks, where interested users may read about the history of LQ? Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The former would just make readers think "WTF?"; the latter sounds fine to me. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 14:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

as discussed briefly somewhere above: can we please eliminate the POV statement from the Chicago Style Guide (the "extreme editorial precision" bit, i mean)? the MOS isn't the place for it. Sssoul (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Something lost?

Once upon a time, and for a long time, the guideline said, in substance, that punctuation goes inside the quotation marks if it is part of the sense of the material quoted (am I imagining this?). I took that to mean that if you take just the last word or phrase from a quoted sentence, you do not include the period. Under that guideline, the following example in the current version, said to be correct, is wrong: Arthur said that the situation was "unacceptable." One would have to preserve the sense of the entire sentence, even if not quoting the entire sentence, to put the period inside the quotation marks: According to Arthur, this "situation is deplorable and unacceptable." The following would be acceptable under the that version, and the current version, of the LQ LP guideline: "The situation", Arthur said, "is deplorable and unacceptable." However, I would disapprove of breaking the complete sentence to interject "Arthur said," on the principle of minimal change: there is no reason to interrupt the complete sentence, and doing so creates doubt as to whether the entire sentence is quoted.—Finell 21:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

That's why I brought up the issue of whether LQ and standard British style are the same thing. Under a literal interpretation of the old LQ text, the period after "unacceptable" may be placed either inside or outside, depending, because it is part of the quoted material. However if LQ/LP/etc. really is just another way to say "British-style punctuation," then we can simply refer to the reputable British style guides, which seem to support what you're saying about sentence fragments. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm interested in the guideline in our MOS, and when and how this one part of it disappeared (again, unless I'm imagining something that never was). For this purpose, I do not care what reputable British or American style guides have to say, since Wikipedia's guideline was and is not based upon either English variety. You will find further elucidation here.—Finell 00:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

My understanding of logical punctuation is that you don't place the period inside the closing quotation marks if you're quoting only one word, but you do if you're quoting more, assuming the punctuation belonged to the original text. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 00:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Reference request again

I've added a request for references to the section containing examples of inside/outside punctuation. [16] Of course, I don't mean we need a source for each example, but I think we do need a source to show that that punctuation is correct within the logical punctuation system. There was at least one example on the page (now removed) that I think was not correct. The system is complex enough even when explained clearly, but if we add errors to the mix we will confuse people totally. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 04:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Shortcuts

Does anyone know what TQ stands for? Also, does anyone have a reference showing that sources other than one or two Wikipedians call logical punctuation "logical quotation"? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 03:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Probably typographical quotation, another term for trailing commas and periods inside, and other punctuation outside, the quotation marks.—Finell 04:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, Finell. That terms seems to refer mostly to curly quotes when you do a Google search. I'm thinking we should remove terms not used by the style guides in case they add to the confusion. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 09:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Typographical quotation mark refers to the curly kind that professional typography has always used. The meaning of typographical quote is anybody's guess, since quote is a lazy, often ambiguous shorthand for both quotation and quotation mark. The convention of always tucking commas and periods inside a closing quotation mark is properly described as a typographical convention (typographical quotation or, if you prefer, typographical punctuation—how about typographical punctuation of quotations, for descriptive precision?) because it originated in the outside world due to the aesthetics and mechanics of typography. Given that the terminology is potentially confusing, and also to avoid nationalistic ENGVAR arguments that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the MOS guideline (redundancy intentional), I agree that we may be better off abandoning all labels: state the guideline, briefly give our reasons for choosing it, and acknowledge that other publications follow different conventions.—Finell 01:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I've seen style guides call it traditional punctuation, typesetters' rules, printers' rules, and typographical usage. I agree that we should either call it what style guides do, or not call it anything. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 01:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Chicago also calls it "American punctuation," which is the name I prefer. Finell has a point that we do not need to mention the name of each practice in the manual of style. The article on quotation marks needs them but the MoS can do without. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I know that Darkfrog prefers to call it "American punctuation", (note that comma is outside quotation marks) and I was specifically objecting his attempts to make this into an ENGVAR issue when it isn't. Preference for "British punctuation", if he wishes to call it that, has nothing to do with the history or rationale of this guideline. Darkfrog has been beating this dead horse for over a year, and it is past time for him to drop the stick.—Finell 06:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Finell, do you honestly think that I went back in time and forced all those style guides and punctuation websites to refer to one practice as American and the other as British? That would be a neat trick. Do you think that all the editors who came to this talk page and ask "Why are American articles doing it the British way?" were really me in disguise? Perhaps I also simplified American spelling, wrote The King's English, and encouraged people to pronounce things differently solely to create a rift in the language like some Bond villain trying to nuke the San Andreas fault line and knock California into the sea. It's fiction, Finell. (Possibly great-box-office fiction, but still.) You may find the idea that there are national varieties of English that use punctuation differently to be an unpleasant reality, but it is reality nonetheless. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not under the impression that anglophilia is the reason for the WP:LP policy. I am under the impression that the policy stems from an incorrect belief that tucking periods and commas inside quotation marks will confuse or mislead the readers. We have seen from over a dozen decades—the most recent one on the Internet—that it does not do so in ordinary prose writing, such as one would find in an encyclopedia. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Authorial precision

Eubulides, what's your objection to saying logical punctuation requires authorial precision? I think we do need to make clear that it's a system that requires checking with the original sources, and not simply adding punctuation outside quotation marks, which is what a lot of editors do. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 06:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that saying that LP requires authorial precision is not necessarily a value judgment. The question is not whether it constitutes badmouthing one style or the other but whether this information 1. is necessary to the MoS's purpose and 2. is phrased in a useful way. For example, "this style requires extreme authorial precision, so Wikipedia advises editors to use caution and check sources carefully" is useful because it illustrates what WP editors should do and shows the importance of why they should do it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

When I first saw the edit adding the "extreme authorial precision" quote I thought it was unnecessary point of view and attribution, but I let it ride. But when Sssoul commented (in #The relevant part, above) saying basically the same thing, I though, well, why is it in there? If we include the quote about "extreme authorial precision" to give one side of the argument, for balance shouldn't we also include the Chicago Manual of Style's remark that American style quotation "defies logic" and that logical quotation should be used when "scholarly integrity" is important or when "inaccuracy or ambiguity is intolerable"? But no, that way lies bloat and confusion. The MoS should be a guide, not a debate transcript. Eubulides (talk) 07:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see it as a question of sides. The problem with LP is that you have to be very careful when using it, and somewhat experienced—I have no idea how to use it, for example, even after reading style guides and lots of examples, and I'd hesitate to trust my judgment on anything complex. I think we need to communicate that to editors, and the best way to do it is to cite an authoritative source. Otherwise people will continue to think it's just a question of moving commas from inside to outside. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

That's the thing. Saying that American punctuation is "illogical" is an insult. Saying that LP requires precision can be framed as an insult ("It requires sooooo much extra effort that it's not worth doing") but can also be neutral or even positive ("It requires precision, so by using it we're smarter and better"). Saying that something is illogical is an opinion but requirements are observable, so "this requires X" can be either an opinion or a fact, depending on whether the speaker actually looked around or not.

If we keep this line, we should establish why it's there ("It requires X, so do Y and Z.") in such a way that makes the statement neutral. Darkfrog24 (talk) 07:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Here we go again, constructing national identity through spelling/typography. Insult? Hello? Tony (talk) 00:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware that the British spell "insult" any differently from the Americans. And yes, "illogical" is an insult. It's a value judgment. It's another way to say "bad." "Requires precision," however, is not another way to say "bad." Because it can be a way to imply bad, however, we should only use it in a way that makes its intended (I'm assuming)value-neutral meaning clear.

Unless you think that I'm very, very old, I could not have constructed the American or British national identities. They were there a long time before I was. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The style of quotation trailing punctuation recommended by the WP MOS (I'll call it "WP MOS quotation style" for now; "LQ" was a very handy name for it most of the time, but was sometimes the basis for needless arguments about whether this or that style manual uses the term "logical quotation" to mean something else) — that punctuation style does not require constantly going back to the source. It requires going back to the source if you want to justify move a trailing punctuation mark from outside to inside the quotation marks; you would also have to go back to the source if you wanted to justify moving a word from outside to inside the quotation marks.

If an article was written using typesetter's quotation (I'll use that name, for now, for a style in which you can't tell anything about the original text by whether or not trailing punctuation is inside the quotation marks) — if an article was written using typesetter's quotation, then it can easily be made to conform to WP MOS quotation style without having to recheck any of the sources, by simply moving all the trailing punctuation marks outside the closing quotation marks. The information as to whether those punctuation marks can be correctly ascribed to the original text (not must but can) has been systematically left out of the article by typesetter's style, and moving all the punctuation marks outside the quotation marks is simply a correct use of the WP MOS quotation style; subsequently, one can at opportunity reconsult sources and justify moving some of those punctuation marks back inside the quotation marks, adding information that typesetter's quotation had systematically excluded from the article. Although the article is not required to provide that additional information, it can be useful to do so (more useful on some occasions than on others).

Note that the mere fact that someone, having decided to convert an article from typesetter's quotation style to WP MOS quotation style, did so by moving all the punctuation marks outside the quotation marks — that fact in itself does not suggest that they don't perfectly well understand how WP MOS quotation style works. That's a perfectly correct way to do the conversion without reconsulting the sources. Now, if they subsequently reverted attempts to selectively move some of those punctuation marks back inside the quotation marks based on the sources, that would suggest that perhaps, after all, they don't understand how WP MOS quotation style works. --Pi zero (talk) 15:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Coverage within the quotation

Tony, not sure what the last bit means: "The period is either known not to be in the source, its presence in the source is uncertain, or its coverage within the quotation is considered unnecessary." SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 06:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I could see this applying to video or audio sources, where an editor transcribing a quote might not know where to put periods. Obviously for written sources we should always know whether or not the period is there. Christopher Parham (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The issue that came up a while ago, ChrisP is that magazines tend to write things like, "Mr. Smith told us, 'This movie is great. Also, I like cheese.' " While we can say with confidence that the period after "great" is Smith's, we cannot know with absolute certainty whether the period after "cheese" was Smith's own or added by the magazine as part of the quotation process. If the magazine phrases it as " 'This movie is great. Also, I like cheese,' Smith tells us," then similar issues appear concerning the comma after "cheese." Many of our fellow punctuation enthusiasts do not feel that it is consistent with LP to say "Smith said, 'I like cheese [period]' " even though it is a full sentence.

This is why I've been reexamining whether LP and BP are the same system or not. British style guides are relatively clear on the matter of direct dialogue, but this does not match a literal interpretation of WP:LP. If LP is another word for "that thing that most of the Brits do," then we have lots of style guides that we can consult. If it's its own, separate system, then we need other sources. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see. The word "source" probably shouldn't be used here at all because what's meant is the original producer of the words (Mr. Smith, in your example), not the source in the traditional WP sense of the reference being cited (the magazine). Christopher Parham (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, in the context of the example it pertains to, I think I can see what it means. This is the full example:

Correct: Arthur said that the situation was "deplorable".

(The period is either known not to be in the source, its presence in the source is uncertain, or its coverage within the quotation is considered unnecessary.)

We are quoting a single word of Arthur's: "deplorable". We're quoting it in our paraphrase only to record that that is the adjective he used. Therefore, we consider it unnecessary to indicate whether or not that word happened to occur at the end of a sentence in Arthur's original utterance. That's my guess; the guideline wording needs to make it clearer though. PL290 (talk) 16:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Slim, actually, I took it from your observation that no one wants to have to apply for inter-library loans to determine whether there's really a quotation-final punctuation. I combined this with my own query about why on earth final punctuation is ever required to be squeezed into a quotation—perhaps very rarely, but I'm struggling to come up with an example. We always have the leeway to expand or contract the ambit of a quotation for several purposes (honest representation, brevity, relevance, the need to wind it smoothly into the grammar of a sentence). This of course includes the final character space. Tony (talk) 00:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems to contradict the point that logical punctuation adheres to the punctuation used by the source, so I'd like to remove it unless there are strong objections. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

That would require us to write,

Arthur called the situation "unacceptable." and described Martha's question, "Are you coming?", as "deplorable", explaining that she had agreed countless times to be patient with him in their relationship.

I think Tony is spot on here in suggesting it should be left to editorial discretion in the context of the existing obligation for honest and effective representation. I am against a mechanical rule about inclusion/exclusion of terminal punctuation. I know there's been a lot of discussion of LQ and other schemes, but I'd prefer to see MoS simply specify editorial discretion concerning terminal punctuation in quotes. PL290 (talk) 11:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

A (possible) summation

As an observer who hasn’t thus far contributed much to this discussion, but who has followed it (and its numerous predecessors) carefully and learned much from it, I would like to offer this summation of the facts I see present here.

The MoS calls for the use of a style known as the logical punctuation of quotations, which has been called logical quotation or LQ for short. This system, as one of its main points, only includes terminating punctuation (commas, periods, etc.) inside the quotes if they were part of the original source material (and then only if it can be determined with certainty). This is in contrast with traditional quotation (aka typographical quotation or LQ), in which, with rare exceptions, "the comma comes before the quote [mark]", to use my 5th grade teacher's mnemonic.

While not universal in use, nor always rigorously applied, LQ is the far more common system used in Britain (and other Commonwealth countries). This has lead some, including respectable style guides, to characterize it as the British system or style.

This characterization is in part due to the marked contrast with US (and Canadian, as far as I can tell) usage, where, outside of some scientific and technical writings, LQ is exceedingly rare, while TQ is common, standard American English. This is a real distinction, one of the many that make American and British English distinct varieties of the language.

And therein lays the issue some have with the requirement of LQ. Its status as non-standard in American English makes it decidedly strange to even highly-educated Americans. It raises questions about the "anyone can edit" nature of Wikipedia. Other questions about the efficacy of the 2 systems compared to each other are also often bandied about, but are ultimately subordinate to the main question.

Those that support the LQ requirement believe that it's easy enough to learn, and aids Wikipedia's exactness enough that requiring it provides greater benefits than burdens.

That's why it keeps coming up as a topic of discussion, and why this part of the MoS is often ignored. And that's what makes it a problem that needs a solution. It's obvious from those factors that the status quo is insufficient.

I hope this covers enough that we can discuss the issue without resorting to ludicrous claims or talking past each other.oknazevad (talk) 23:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good summary, except that you left out that British journalists and fiction writers use typesetters' punctuation a lot, so it doesn't fit nationalist lines neatly. I think your point about articles that anyone can edit is a good one. I can't, with any confidence, edit articles that use logical punctuation, in part because I just don't get it, and in part because I often don't have access to the original sources. When I have to use logical punctuation, I use fewer quotations, so it does affect my writing (although that's not necessarily a bad thing: Wikipedians tend to over-quote because they're often not confident about paraphrasing). I think we need to start a discussion about loosening up this requirement, and asking people to focus on internal consistency, the way we do with citation styles. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Well I did say "Although not universally used," so I think I did cover the roughness of the national breakdown. oknazevad (talk) 13:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

On this, Slim, we are in complete agreement. At the absolute least, if an article already uses predominantly the periods-and-commas-inside style, and someone comes along and tucks in a few strays so that they match the rest of the article, that person should not be brought up for AN/I. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Spaced disjunctive en dashes

We recently had a long discussion about spaced disjunctive en dashes when a disjunct contains spaces, as in "Chicago – New York flight". (Note that this was not talking about spaced en dashes as a substitute for emdash; that's a different topic.) The result was inconclusive, reflecting a lack of consensus on the topic. No consensus has ever been established on-Wiki about the topic: the current requirement (for spaces around en dashes when either disjunct contains spaces) was added without discussion here, and when this was noticed and objections raised, the requirement was defended by some editors but vociferously objected by others. Scholarly publications and major style guides more commonly omit spaces in this case, though there are counterexamples.

This is a classic case of "no consensus", and as such the style guide should not claim to reflect a consensus where none exists. The current disputed tag at the start of En dashes has been present for weeks now, and now is as good a time as any to get rid of it. I've tried to start the ball rolling by making this change:

Disjunctive en dashes are normally unspaced, except when there is a space within either one or both of the items (the New York – Sydney flight; the New Zealand – South Africa grand final; June 3, 1888 – August 18, 1940, but June–August 1940). Exceptions are occasionally made where the item involves a spaced surname (Seifert–van Kampen theorem). However, when a disjunct itself contains spaces, spaced en dashes may be used: most style guides and scholarly publications avoid spaces (Chicago–New York route, Seifert–van Kampen theorem), but some guides specify spaces (17 May – 22 November, June 3, 1888 – August 18, 1940) and other guides allow editorial discretion.

This change is not trying to impose my personal preference (which is for unspaced en dashes uniformly), but rather trying to reflect the greatest consensus. Eubulides (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a good start, but personally, I'd somehow point out that, while in "17 May" the space separates two units with their own meanings, "van Kampen" is one morphemelexeme which just happens to contain a space, but is syntactically no different from the one morphemelexeme "Seifert".

Rules which attempt to explain grammar on purely "typographic" grounds as if a computer had to understand them, with no regard for meaning, pronunciation, logic, or anything else, are often flawed. Pick a random English grammar book and take a look at its rule for spelling past tenses of regular verbs: it's likely to be unable to correctly predict that quitted has two T's and suited has one. But this is nowhere as bad as the typical Italian claptrap that the Latin pronoun aliquis "loses its ali" (ali meaning "wings" in Italian) after the words si, nisi, ne and num. The way that's usually worded seems to imply that's just some kind of euphonic rule, but actually aliquis means "somebody", si, nisi, ne and num mean "if", "unless", "lest" and "whether" respectively, and quis means "anybody"; put this way, it's obvious that it's just a different pronoun with a different meaning. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Eubulides, first of all, you used a hyphen rather than an en dash to illustrate the issue. Do you know the difference? Second, there was no consensus to change the long-standing guideline, not about the guideline. Tony (talk) 22:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about that hyphen above; I fixed it. Unfortunately there was never any on-Wiki discussion establishing a consensus for that guideline, and in light of the long discussion referenced above it can't be said that requiring spaces has ever had real consensus. I'm trying as best I can to reflect general consensus, rather than impose my personal preference. I'm not sure I follow the comment about morphemes: "van" is a tussenvoegsel that means "from" or "of": it's certainly a distinct morpheme from "Kampen" in Dutch, and I'd say it's a distinct morpheme in English too. Eubulides (talk) 04:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"Van" might happen to be an English word too, but it has a completely unrelated meaning. And even in Dutch it has not the literal meaning there (although it likely had etymologically), as that guy was not from one of those towns. (C'mon, isn't "Leonardo Da Vinci" written with a capital D in English, and in that case it really means he was from Vinci...) BTW, sorry about "morpheme", I didn't mean that. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 11:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Among the people who would space all en dashes with spaced operands (other than surnames) were you (Tony), Headbomb, Trovatore, HWV258, Greg L, CuriousEric, SMcCandlish and Noetica; among people who wouldn't, were Sławomir Biały, Ozob, Carl (CBM), Eubulides, Christopher Parham, me, David Eppstein, DCGeist, and Art LaPella. I might have missed a few people and misunderstood the position of another few, but the point is that this doesn't look like consensus either for the status quo before Eubulides's recent change or against it. (And if you're going to mention 2007, go read WP:CCC.) ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Assuming there is indeed no existing consensus (I don't dispute that assertion, but I confess I'm not among the most ardent followers of dash discussion on this page so I simply don't know), then I think your change is an improvement; however, I think it has unnecessary bias towards the spaced presentation. Rather than introduce the position with "However, when a disjunct itself contains spaces, spaced en dashes may be used", I think it would be better to present the differing style guide information first, up to "... other guides allow editorial discretion.", and follow that with "Wikipedia editors should exercise judgement over the choice on a case-by-case basis." PL290 (talk) 10:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Status quo well-established until Ozob and Eubulides started shouting from the rooftops. Sorry, you need consensus to change it, not to keep it. Many editors have voiced their support for the long-established guideline. Personal peeves are not appropriate here. Tony (talk) 12:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

For the record I would like to point out that it was neither me nor Eubulides who started that long thread, but rather User:Sławomir Biały, and he did so on the basis of consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics. Ozob (talk) 23:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"Sorry, you need consensus to change it, not to keep it." Nope. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually I thought Tony had a point there. Not sure that essay should be treated as an authority; rather, the applicable policy is surely this one, which says it applies to "any page other than a talk page". Going by the policy, there was consensus for the existing MoS wording by dint of the fact that it was not changed all that time. If this consensus is now challenged, and a lengthy debate has not clarified it, a straw poll would seem to be the way forward. PL290 (talk) 16:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The original change to require spaces (when disjunctions contain spaces) was made without discussion here, in such a way that editors didn't notice it; enforcement of the changed guideline wasn't made until quite a bit later, at which point complaints came in. I'm not saying anything underhanded happened: quite the contrary! These things happen entirely innocently. Still, the lack of consensus for the original change is supported by the reaction of editors once it started to have practical effect. Wording changes along the lines of those suggested by PL290 would be fine. Eubulides (talk) 23:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the notion of spacing en dashes has been around long enough that a discussion among a few MOS regulars to change the guide won't cause a change in behavior in the many editors who have "learned" it the old way (including me). Many FAs and FLs follow the existing rule of spacing en dashes (assuming that they use en dashes in the first place). We need to advertise this discussion more widely if we want real change (and I'm not necessarily implying that change is necessary). Dabomb87 (talk) 03:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The change does not invalidate any of these FAs and FLs, it allows spaced en dashes to be used wherever the previous version required them. Eubulides (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)

FWIW I agree with Eubulides above that the seeming long consensus here for spaced en-dashes when the disjuncts contain spaces was illusory: as soon as this started being used to rename mathematics articles there was a strong reaction against. And the long recent discussion should make it clear that it's unlikely we can come to a new consensus that strictly defines when to use spaces. So I agree with the general principle that we shouldn't try to define what we can't define, and instead we should clearly state that there isn't a strict rule.

Perhaps this goes without saying, but if we're going to have a guideline that doesn't enforce one specific and clearly defined rule for whether to space en-dashes, we should at least have some consistency within each of our articles, with the usual rules against gratuitous style changes without building consensus on article talk pages first. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the ivory tower of maths article, there appears to be no controversy whatsoever. Tony (talk) 12:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I am a little surprised at seeing anti-intellectual and othering rhetoric such as this on Wikipedia. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Add physics (and all sciences) to that ivory tower. Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 12:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This discussion, in which the silliness of writing "Toulouse–Bordeaux" and "Bordeaux – La Rochelle" in the same context is (rightly, IMO) pointed out, doesn't appear to have anything to do with mathematics to me. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 14:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Errr ... like the silliness of writing "... and 15 cars. Eighteen trucks were sold, and 13 were found to be faulty."? Tony (talk) 00:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Errr ... What's your point? The MOS has discouraged "five cats and 32 dogs" for as long as I can remember and indeed I can't recall many WP articles ever doing stuff like that. And in your example they are even more "comparable quantities" than with cats and dogs: most people would immediately try to estimate the fraction of trucks which were faulty, and doing it that way makes one take at least a half second longer to realize it's greater than 100% and yell "WTF?". ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

My point is that no one seems to mind that we require inconsistency in numeral/spell-out usage (start of sentence has to be spelled out). Nor do I. Tony (talk) 13:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Eubulides, you know very well that there is no consensus to change the long-standing wording, yet you slipped it in last week. I have reverted it. Tony (talk) 13:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony, I suggest you take a closer look at Eubulides' edit comments from 14 Feb, both here and on the article edits. I think you will find he was quite clear about his intentions. "Slipped it in" seems to be a rather harsh accusation. User:LeadSongDog come howl 14:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

There was indeed no slipping in. The "long-standing wording" is what got slipped in, and it never had real on-wiki consensus. I restored the new wording, which is less prescriptive and reflects actual consensus on Wikipedia better. Eubulides (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Huh? I don't read it that way. If you read the whole point you're talking about rather than just the first sentence, you'll see that it suggests "and 15 cars; 18 trucks were sold, and 13 were found to be faulty", "and 15 cars. They sold 18 trucks, and found 13 to be faulty", or things like that. Also, it says "since using figures risks the period being read as a decimal point or abbreviation mark" which is not the case here, so it doesn't even forbid "... and 15 cars. 18 trucks were sold, and 13 were found to be faulty". ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:27, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

A. di M. is of course correct. And this whole cars-and-trucks thing is a red herring anyway. Please see #Unspaced en dashes are not ivory-tower below. Eubulides (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I am starting to have nightmares about entire fleets of defective trucks bearing down on me as I drive, and being trapped in a room with 32 dogs, 5 cats and 1 herring. I take it all back—can we go back to a nice, calm topic like en dashes now please? Consensus is a funny thing sometimes; as I suggested previously, if parties disagree whether there even was past consensus, which anyway may not reflect current consensus, surely it's time for a straw poll? PL290 (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Unspaced en dashes are not ivory-tower

Tony's assertion that there's no controversy "aside from the ivory tower of maths article" is incorrect. Here are two counterexamples that came up in my personal editing recently:

• A list of large metropolitan areas included the usual suspects (New York, Mexico City), along with Tokyo–Yokohama, Seoul–Incheon, and Hong Kong–Shenzhen. In this list, it would have been inappropriate to put spaces around the last entry, because that would have distracted the reader's eye by making that entry look special (when it is not, in fact, special).
• Medicine is full of disease names like ectrodactyly–ectodermal dysplasia–cleft syndrome. If this name were incorrectly written as "ectrodactyly – ectodermal dysplasia – cleft syndrome" it would naturally be parsed by non-experts as a combination of ectrodactyly, ectodermal dysplasia, and cleft syndrome, which is incorrect: it's a single syndrome that combines ectrodactyly, ectodermal dysplasia, and clefting, and the correct (unspaced) punctuation reflects the meaning better.

These are not isolated examples: this sort of thing is fairly common, reliable scholarly publishers such as Springer and Oxford almost invariably omit the spaces, and many (though not all) style guides also omit the spaces.

Requiring spaced endashes is even weirder than requiring Nature-style footnotes would be. At least with Nature, we have one high-quality journal publisher consistently doing it the oddball way, with footnotes before punctuation. There's nothing remotely comparable for disjunctive endashes: no high-quality journal publisher consistently does it the oddball way, with spaced endashes. The style guideline should should not require a style that's even less well-supported in practice than an oddball style it currently disallows. Eubulides (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

A prediction: Some of the proponents of spaced en dashes will say once again that Wikipedia need not follow print style guides, that Wikipedia need not conform to common publishing practices, and that the Internet, being a different medium from print, requires different standards. I do not think that any of these are correct. Good layout is universal; therefore printed style guides are as applicable on the web as they are in print. Common publishing practices are common because they are easy for readers and look good on the page, and we should not reject them without specific reasons (such as we have with straight versus curly quotes). I do not see any reason to space disjunctive en dashes; it is confusing and unaesthetic. The Manual of Style ought to be changed, and unspaced disjunctive en dashes should be required. Ozob (talk) 01:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Now if you are going to take up everyone's time with another RfC, you will find that there is no consensus for allowing people to write "20 December 1918–21 January 1919" wherever they wish. Many editors objected to your proposal last time. I don't know why you think otherwise. But an RfC generating such consensus is what it would take, rather than trying to force your way by unilateral editing. I have very little time at the moment, but you will destroy what little I have for eating and sleeping if this is the way it has to be. Tony (talk) 07:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony: please see WP:OWN. Or maybe WP:TEA. The last sentence of your comment seems to be taking this all a little too personally. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

David Eppstein, please see WP:OWN. Or may be TEA. Tony (talk) 08:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I know nothing about the history of this issue, but in fairness to Tony, I'd say if he's very busy at the moment but this is an issue he cares about, it would be good to wait until he has more free time. Otherwise, he'll be trying to squeeze arguments into the few spare moments he has, and everything will feel more fraught than it needs to. The debate will no doubt stand to wait for a few days or weeks. :) SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 08:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony, can you suggest a time when you are less busy and more able to participate? I can see that you want to be part of this discussion, and I don't want you to be unable to contribute because of your other obligations. Ozob (talk) 13:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

There's certainly no rush to fixing the problem. I too would like to hear Tony's reasoned responses to the above points. Eubulides (talk) 09:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Web layout and print layout

Actually, standard Web layout does differ from standard print layout. In print, one typically uses serif fonts, justified paragraphs with the first line indented and no extra space between a paragraph and the next, and curly quotes, whereas on screens, sans-serif fonts, left-flushed paragraphs (including the first line) with a blank line between a paragraph and the following one, and straight quotes are more common. But I have never noticed any different practice in the spacing of dashes between print and the Web. (Indeed, dashes are often replaced by hyphens on-line...) ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 11:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but there is a specific reason for this, namely limited monitor resolution. We still have to accommodate people using 800×600 resolutions on their desktops, and the mobile site has to accommodate very small, low-resolution cell phone screens. Serif fonts do not show up well on low-resolution monitors; even on high resolution monitors, they don't always look ideal. We are a long way from everyone having 600dpi on their desktop, and consequently the web uses sans serif fonts much more frequently than print. I believe that paragraph spacing is another example of this; I'm not quite sure why in this case, but I know that I prefer to read flush-left, spaced paragraphs on a computer screen, and I also prefer to read traditionally formatted paragraphs in print. I wonder what I'd prefer on an eBook reader? Ozob (talk) 13:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

As for the fonts, I think you're right. (At least, that's the historical reason for that; nowadays there are serif fonts which read easily even at tiny resolutions, such as Droid Serif, but sans-serif font have been used long enough that most readers are too strongly used to them.) As for the text alignment, I think there are two factors here: all other things being equal justified paragraphs would look "neater" but: 1) in print, words at the end of a line are hyphenated at syllable boundaries so that the number of characters per line is roughly constant; doing that in HTML would be a major PITA, so some lines are significantly shorter than others, and spaces would need to be stretched or shrunk too much to justify text; 2) in print, columns are relatively narrow (typically about 80 characters per line, often less); lines much longer than that (as they sometimes are on webpages) are harder to read, but the "ragged" right margin somehow helps. This in turn affects the first-line indentation: having both margins flushed would look too dull, and having both margins "jagged" would look too clumsy. (This is my impression, at least– YMMV.) But IMO one of the most important factors is that we are just used to see text formatted in a certain way on paper and in another certain way on screen. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 16:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Register redux

SlimVirgin's compilation of past discussions at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation highlights the fact that, right now, the MOS Register, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register, is not successfully serving its intended function. If it were, SlimVirgin would presumably have found it most natural to compile a collection of links into the archives at the appropriate section of WP:MOSR.

The current stagnation of the Register does not, I suggest, mean that it cannot be made to work, and become the powerful tool for informing future deliberations that it was hoped to become. What seems to be lacking is a suitable social dynamic that would lead people — hopefully, not just a small elite set of intensive MOS contributors — to put in dribs and drabs of time on incrementally building/updating it. A prerequisite to this would seem to be a very clear set of instructions on exactly how someone with a few minutes to spare can usefully spend it on incrementally improving the coverage provided by the Register. Also, I'm inclined to doubt it would be feasible to maintain extensive hand-crafted remarks on individual sections through such a social dynamic of small incremental contributions by passers by (and that's setting aside how contentious such hand-crafted remarks might become on hot-button issues).

I suggest we choose a very straightforward standard format for all sections of the Register — say, an optional one-sentence description of the history and status of that section of the MOS, and a list of links into the archives — and then set out clear instructions and try to nurture a culture of incremental contributions. --Pi zero (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

We also appear to have sections not being archived, or not being archived completely: bits are available, but not all. This is especially true for early archives, but it's also happening with some recent ones. I've had to use manual searches to find the posts I added to the quotation subpage, and I'm still finding material. Or it could be that they're in the archives, but that sections are being split up by the bot, so they end up in different archives. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 22:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

And the search box at the top of this page also doesn't return much. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 22:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Please be patient. I have been busy at maintaining Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory, so that it can be searched more efficiently for archived discussions. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

That's great! I've often had trouble using that thing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The heading of this section is "Register redux". In what sense is the word redux being used? -- Wavelength (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

TenuisVirgo Pi nullus nullum dicit registrum reducem esse; id est, it has returned to our attention. See wikt:redux. Ucucha 19:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

π⁰
neutrum est, ergo "nullum" dicendum erat. :-) Really bad pun based on "neutral particle" vs "neuter" (grammatical gender); that's what happens when you've been watching TBBT too long. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Grātiās agō. Forsan paucī ūsōrēs illum verbum intellegunt. (Thank you. Perhaps few Wikipedians understand that word.)

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Credo te verum dicere et correxi textum "nullus" in textum "nullum". Mus 20:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Blacks

MOS:IDENTITY says "use black people rather than blacks". Political correctness is never logical, so does the same rule apply to "whites"? Art LaPella (talk) 04:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not quite so sensitive, because whites have been the oppressors historically. Tony (talk) 07:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Note, however, that treating the historically oppressing differently from the historically oppressed would not be optimal. That favors equal care to use "white people". --Pi zero (talk) 16:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

By the way, it doesn't seems idomatic to use either color as a singular count noun (He's a white, she's a Black). Let's stick to using the color words as adjectives in such cases.

As to the nomifying the color word in the plural, it seem idiomatic when discussing demographic data (Whites are 50% more likely to watch hockey than Blacks.)

As to oppressors and oppressing and such talk, these things may explain why something is idomatic or not, but that's not what's important. The important thing is whether they are idomatic or not. Chrisrus (talk) 15:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

• The current wording is "Avoid the use of certain adjectives as nouns: for example, use black people rather than blacks, gay people rather than gays, disabled people rather than the disabled.". This seems too vague to be useful — what are these certain adjectives and why should we avoid them? To start with, I don't agree with the specific example of blacks. Britannica uses blacks without any difficulty and so do many other respectable publications. And the principle seems unworkable when we try to extend it. Should we say lesbian people rather than lesbians, for example? It seems over-prescriptive and unworkable without a huge list of definitive examples. We should therefore remove it altogether per WP:CREEP. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree. PL290 (talk) 12:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I agree also. As an example of how silly this rule is, should we say mathematician people instead of mathematicians? Politician people instead of politicians? The current wording suggests we might. The list of all words this rule applies to is open to fiery, useless arguments: Does black belong on the list? Does gay belong on the list? What about tough people versus toughs? I think the right solution here is to remove the rule entirely; any situation it ought to apply to is already covered by our requirement for an encyclopedic tone. Ozob (talk) 14:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• "Gay people" would sound a bit odd. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 22:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

And right before this, the MoS notes that most Jews prefer to be called Jews, not Jewish people. I suspect most Christians prefer to be called Christians, not Christian people; and that most Muslims prefer Muslims to Islamic people; and so on. This is ridiculous, and I've removed it from the MoS. Ozob (talk) 05:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Default thumbnail image size is now 220px, but ...

Bugzilla 21117, the result of the overwhelming consensus to raise the default from the tiny 180px to 220px, has been reassigned to a Mark Bergsma, who I presume is a new WMF developer. Mark advises that he has upped the default to 220 on en.WP (it's true: I've checked), but that this is likely to be reverted soon. Why? Something to do with the notion that all WPs should have the same default size, and that they want to do a WMF-wide change all at once. I'm unsure why en.WP can't stay at 220px, frankly, since the Swedish WP has had 250px for some time. But this is a good start. Tony (talk) 01:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, so that explains why English Wikipedia has been so slow recently! It's re-rendering massive numbers of articles and images. I take it they didn't follow my suggestion of changing the default to 220px a few articles at a time? Anyway, I assume the performance problem is temporary. In the meantime, I'm cheating by changing my default to 180px while logged in. Eubulides (talk) 04:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I hadn't noticed any significant change in performance time. In any case, it might be worth noting at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Citation templates, if that's still ongoing. Dabomb87 (talk) 05:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it could by my network connection instead of Wikipedia. That discussion and its performance figures predate this change, and the server-side performance of citation templates (which is the bottleneck with many articles) is largely unaffected by image size. Eubulides (talk) 05:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, WP has been faster over the past couple of days for me. Last week or two it went through a few bad patches. I think the enlargement was quite recent. What bothers me is the lack of agreement among the techs at WMF as to the issues involved in upscaling. There have been several opinions thus far, all quite different. Tony (talk) 11:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Even in my limited experience, I think a fixed default should be a last resort. There too many variables:

• Registered users can set prefs, but unregistered readers can't. I suggest our priority should be unregistered readers in our ideas about image size and other layout decisions.
• Even on PC-type machines there are variations. For example my desktop has a widescreen that runs best at 1440px wide, but I recently also a basic netbook that shows at 800px or 1024px.
• The user may change the browser's window size, or a reader with a visual difficult may change the showed size of text and images.
• A mobile PC-type machine will need to accept the speed of the nearest connection, which can vary.
• A WMF-wide default would need to consider dial-up connections, some more expensive than the broadband used by most contributors of this discussion.
• And I haven't considered more limited machines such as PDAs and mobiles, as I have no experience of these.
• Sometimes only the editor can decide the best size of an image, considering how the image (e.g. technical diagram or simple illustration)

I suggest a Javascript that resizes images both on load and if the reader changes the layout, e.g. by resizing the window - I think resizing the window will also adapt if the reader changes the showed size of text and images. The script to resize images should use as base the editor's size if specified or the basic default otherwise. --Philcha (talk) 07:14, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'm confused. My prefs now show the choice of 220px, which I don't think I set myself. Does this mean that all registered WPians have that choice as a default? I was expecting that a change would be made at a deeper level, so that our readers would see larger images when no pixel width for an image is set within an article. Tony (talk) 09:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia, home to a manual of style?

Whenever a (well-intentioned) newbie tries to insert new information into a place article, he frequently gets stuck for "glue" words - how to tie it in with the article's title. So s/he inserts "Midville is home to x." I think that the words "home to" ought to be explicitly mentioned as words to avoid. There is usually a more imaginative (but not overly imaginative) way to include new information. Sometimes, since the whole article is about Midville, it is enought to say, "x offers y" and not include the subject of the article.

The use of this phrase is lame IMO. Student7 (talk) 13:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you give us a specific example? "New York is home to the Yankees and Mets" sounds all right to me.

In general, I am not in favor of making rules against expressions that are neither incorrect nor difficult to understand. But even if we don't have a rule against something, any user with an idea of how to bettter express "home to" might just go in and change it, no permission required. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it is an over-used expression, but doesn't require banning as it does no actual harm. Barnabypage (talk) 14:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess I was referring to style, rather than "banning" per se. It is trite, informal, chatty, unimaginative and non-encyclopedic. It is chamber-of-commerce-y. "Midville is home to Merkel." Instead of "Merkel has a plant there." Or Mekel manufactures widgets." Or (better) "Merkel employs 420 to manufacture widgets." Each better statement requires more research and thought.

Understand that the c-of-c is trying to mention Midville over and over and over. It is their job. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, is not. The subject of the article is Midville. Midville only needs to be mentioned when there is some ambiguity or maybe to start off a major section. But that is another style problem.

I perceive this as one of the most prevalent style problems for place articles. Yes, I change it when I see it. I thought it might become less prevalent if mentioned here. Student7 (talk) 15:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The fact is, when the MoS says "x is generally not recommended", many people think it means "x should be avoided like plague at all cost, even in those situations where it would make perfect sense"; some of them will also run bots to replace all occurrences of x with something else arbitrarily choosen, with no human decision. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The MOS could say something about avoiding "Midville boasts beautiful vistas"-type stuff, under the heading of "maintain encyclopedic tone". Specific examples could be given, and "is home to" might be used in this way, but I think the larger point that Wikipedia is not a C of C is well taken. Chrisrus (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Sadly, A d M is correct. Almost anything that we put in the MoS will be treated as an absolute ironclad rule by those who read it. Perhaps it shouldn't work that way, but it does. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

"People just don't think, that's the problem." (Geoff Pullum)[17] ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 16:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, in the many instances where the Manual discourages something that sounds OK to me, the only choices are to make it an ironclad rule or ignore it, and either choice might be preferable to recognizing the Emperor's new clothes. Art LaPella (talk) 00:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers. I must defer to your judgment here and will stop monitoring this page (not out of a fit of pique - it is flooding my watchlist with, uh, other "discussions" quote, unquote  :) Student7 (talk) 12:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

She's a ship

Somebody changed every she to it on the article Essex (ship), but I changed it back. Was I wrong? Chrisrus (talk) 00:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, we don't have a rule about that.

Some people consider the "she" sexist.

The expression might be outdated, but I wouldn't say you were wrong. Maurreen (talk) 08:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC) But then again, you want to avoid repeated reversion or edit warring also. Talk with the other editor. Maurreen (talk) 08:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I was initially appalled at the sexism of the generic female for ships. It's all about male control over what they ride (and I use "ride" with its full sex-act connotation—I'm not joking). However, I lost that battle and gave in. You'll generate outrage if you change "she" it "it"; however, where "she" and "her" occur several times in a paragraph, it's just plain bad style. There, rotation with "the ship" and "[name of ship]" are highly desirable. Tony (talk) 09:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I always thought that men called their ships "she" because they loved them. I guess I noticed that they only men who called their cars "she" were those who really loved their cars to the point that they humanized them. The reason I regretted reverting was because it seemed a bit too quaint; old-fashioned and poetic and maybe therefore not encyclopedic. What about those grounds? Also, to be considered are the (very old) sources, who called her "she". Finally, the regret was all mine, no one objected to my action or reverted it and there was no discussion or "edit warring".Chrisrus (talk) 15:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

"She" was common usage for inanimate/nonliving objects in some countries. People probably still use it today. However, that convention is not universal. For example, I believe Russians call their ships "he" or "him." Given WP:WORLDVIEW, you're better off using a neutral term such as "it." Airborne84 (talk) 22:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

But that's the Russian language. Ships as "she" is pretty universal in English, and this is the English Wikipedia. What speakers of other languages do isn't particularly relevant here. The only debate is whether we should use what is essentially a poetic convention for the formal tone we're looking for. I'd say no, but it's such a well known, widely used convention, that it's not all that informal. oknazevad (talk) 23:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

International rules and regulations are anything but informal. The NAVIGATION RULES (International-Inland) published by the U.S. Coast Guard use the feminine gender for vessels. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You have convinced me that the usage continues to be standard in the US Coast Guard. Would it be easy to check those of a few other major English-speaking countries? How about an international body of shipping? Chrisrus (talk) 01:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It appears [18], [19] that the RN still uses "she". User:LeadSongDog come howl 06:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Warring editors on WP:FN

An earlier thread #Contradiction regarding inline citations on this page discussed some difficulties and inconsistencies in the guidelines concerning inline citations, which had resulted recently in two editors being blocked. The discussion produced a clear consensus, apart from WhatamIdoing. However, warring editors on WP:FN, spearheaded by WhatamIdoing, are reverting the changes made to that guideline to bring it into alignment with that discussion and with MOS. This sabotaging means the situation has reverted to the unworkable state that was the reason for the discussion in the first place.

These dissident editors claim that a discussion here has no relevance to that page, and choose not to further discuss the matter here. There have their own talk thread, hardly a discussion, since they make no attempts to engage or refute any of the points that have been made here. Instead, they simply assert their right to restore things as they were, because that is how they were. The nearest offering to a logical statement is: "I don't see Wikipedia consensus on that, regardless of what may exist within a particular discussion." There is no clarification of what might constitute a "Wikipedia consensus".

Is this the case, that self appointed gate keepers to guidelines subsidiary to MOS take precedence, and that these gate keepers are not accountable in the sense that they need to consider what has been discussed elsewhere, and should actually give the matter some thought? If so, then the entire discussion on this page has been relegated to the garbage pail, and needs to be reopened. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Why would you believe that WP:FN is subordinate to WP:MOS? If people want changes to WP:FN, that's great. Propose the change on the talk page. Implement it if consensus is achieved. At the moment, you are trying to change a page based on discussion on an entirely separate page, that didn't arrive at a clear consensus for any particular language, and which involved many fewer editors than the discussion which led to the langauge at WP:FN (unsurprisingly, the more visible location for discussion about footnotes!). Christopher Parham (talk) 22:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

You have just stated at WP:FN that "you can't just move every discussion to MOS talk, where there is a clear historical preference for greater regulation regardless of merit." Are you saying that the style guidelines are broken, MOS can have its own rules and a fork like WP:FN can have something quite different? And are you saying discussions on MOS carry no weight elsewhere? Is there no will to fix this strange situation? Anyway, assuming Christopher Parham is correct, and that it was an error starting the discussion on this page (he inexplicably refers to it as "forum shopping"), I have transferred it where it can continue on the talk page of WP:FN. --Epipelagic (talk) 00:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The correct thing to do would be to move the discussion to WP:FN. If we have to go through the motions, then let's go through the motions. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Hyphens in reference titles

MOS:QUOTE says:

"Although the requirement of minimal change is strict, a few purely typographical elements of quoted text should be conformed to English Wikipedia's conventions without comment. This practice of conforming typographical styling to a publication's own "house style" is universal. Allowable typographical alterations include these:

• Styling of dashes—use the style chosen for the article: unspaced em dash or spaced en dash. ..."

If we can change an unspaced em dash to a spaced en dash, then it should be more permissible to change a disjunctive hyphen to an en dash, because a disjunctive hyphen isn't an optional style like unspaced em dashes vs. spaced en dashes. And if we can change a hyphen in a quote, I would think it would be at least equally permissible to change such a hyphen in a reference title, because there is less reason to rely on the exact expression of a reference title than on a quote. It would also be difficult to tell AWB to change hyphens in regular text but not in a reference title.

However, I was reverted here. So what do you guys think? Art LaPella (talk) 22:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a different matter from quoted text, I think - we want to be able to use the title of the article to later find it should the link die. If the title of the article is later changed in the name of cleaning it up, it makes this task that much harder. Meanwhile, there is little benefit to the change you are making. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec) The Manual of Style is all well and good, but with references, why can't we just copy the title of the article from the source page and paste it verbatim into the citation template? If editors have to go through every citation they add in order to make them comply with the MOS, articles will take forever to write! I say, if a hyphen is used in the source article title, we should use one in article citation templates. – PeeJay 22:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree entirely, Art. Spaced hyphens look crappy, and this is in exactly the same category as the dashes. Tony (talk) 00:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree too. I've just restored the en dashes. Ozob (talk) 01:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess I forgot to mention the following problem: who are we to correct the typography of a source? We should not change punctuation just because we think it looks better. – PeeJay 01:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

My quote from MOS:QUOTE above has already addressed "who are we ...": "This practice of conforming typographical styling to a publication's own 'house style' is universal". To Christopher Parham: Doesn't Google find a text string regardless of how it's punctuated? Art LaPella (talk) 03:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Google does, but not necessarily every search engine (e.g. ours does not produce the same results for [20] and [21], presumably because it misinterprets the dash as an exclusion of the second part of the string). Christopher Parham (talk) 14:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• To Christopher Parham: Wikipedia's search engine will be affected by punctuation, but you wouldn't use Wikipedia search except to look for a Wikipedia article, not an external reference. So that doesn't matter except with an internal link, and I wouldn't change an internal link without making sure that doesn't make it a redlink. To correct a dead link, the first thing you would try is the Wayback Machine, which requires a URL not a reference title, and I wouldn't change a URL either. It's imaginable that you would use a search engine such as Google or Yahoo, but Yahoo also ignores punctuation. So does Bing.
• To PeeJay2K3: I haven't addressed this argument: "If editors have to go through every citation they add in order to make them comply with the MOS, articles will take forever to write!" They don't have to. Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners with citation templates, for instance, recommends copying and pasting the title. If that's all you want to do, that's a vast improvement over an uncited article, and my software can take it from there.
• To the rest of you: The hyphens were re-inserted (hidden as "cleanup") here, so are we going back to dashes again? It's Today's Featured Article. Art LaPella (talk) 19:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Identity and geography

There's a common problem when we refer to places: how many levels of geographical information are appropriate, especially in biographies. In the US, the state is commonly added because there are so many duplicates such as Springfield. In the UK, the issues tends to be the choice between England/Scotland, Britain and UK. Where frontiers have moved, similar issues arise, as in the case of Silesia. I came here looking for some guidance on the matter but, so far, haven't found it. Shouldn't the section on identity say something about this or provide a link? Colonel Warden (talk) 11:53, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• I've now found MOS:BIO. I propose that we provide a link to this in the MOS:IDENTITY section. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Allow more than two em dashes in a sentence

MOS:EMDASH currently states,

Do not use more than two em dashes in a single sentence: which two (if any) make a parenthetic pair?

I suggest this should be modified to draw attention to that issue while still allowing careful use of more than two. For example:

Within the Solar System, the inner planets—Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars—have dense, rocky compositions and no ring systems, while the outer planets—Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune—are known as gas giants and all have rings.

It's true that most such sentences could be recast or parentheses used instead, but when the function of each dash is clear in context (as in the above example) I suggest it would be preferable to allow a full range of expression and hence not have a fixed maximum of two. My proposed rewording is:

Ensure there is no ambiguity if using more than two em dashes in a single sentence: which two (if any) make a parenthetic pair?

PL290 (talk) 13:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. This seems to be more a case of what constitutes good writing rather than what's correct or incorrect. I think this might be clearer, though:

Avoid overuse of em dashes. Most sentences can be recast to need no more than two of them. However, in those rare cases when three or more are necessary, ensure that there is no ambiguity about which form parenthetic pairs.

Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I should perhaps have included the surrounding sentences here; I believe they already address those other points. Here is the full text I now propose (first two sentences unchanged):

Use em dashes sparingly. They are visually striking, so two in a paragraph is often a good limit. Ensure there is no ambiguity if using two "sharp break" em dashes, or more than two em dashes of any kind, in a single sentence: which two (if any) make a parenthetic pair?

PL290 (talk) 13:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't like including a rhetorical question, as I think it's not direct enough. But the instruction works just fine if we leave it out:

Use em dashes sparingly. They are visually striking, so two in a paragraph is often a good limit. Ensure there is no ambiguity if using two "sharp break" em dashes or more than two em dashes of any kind.

Ozob (talk) 14:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The rhetorical question is in the existing text so that isn't part of my proposed change. I'm happy with its removal. I also agree with your removal of "in a single sentence", since there's no need to spell that out. PL290 (talk) 14:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Even without the question, it still looks chunky and messy to me. Something like "When using more than two em dashes of any kind in a single sentence, ensure that there is no ambiguity about which form parenthetic pairs" would serve better. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's better still for the last sentence. It draws attention to the exact point without unnecessary verbiage.No, "more than two" omits to address the two sharp breaks, when there are no parenthetical pairs. I think Ozob's wording is still best. PL290 (talk) 15:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• I don't like "sharp break": an em dash is an em dash, and has only one use. Isn't the current wording just fine? The sentence right at the top needs parentheses, not dashes. Tony (talk) 09:14, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Accessibility and images

This series of edits removed longstanding WP:ACCESSIBILITY advice with edit summaries like "removed accessibility thing, because it reads as though it's discouraging people from doing it". It's true that the text was warning people about changing image sizes due to WP:ACCESSIBILITY concerns. But these concerns are real, and the warnings should not simply be deleted. Editors should take accessibility issues into account when changing image sizes.

Similarly, let's not water down the advice that textual info should be entered as text rather than as an image, as this edit did. Eubulides (talk) 09:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)