Talk:Bruce Lee

Template:V0.5

Notification

I have taken the issue to Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Categorization of Bruce Lee as "Chinese". Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, you were trying to evade the above irrefutable explanations, and took the issue to somewhere else with your one sided comments. Also your comments approached Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Etiquette. I don’t know what’s your purpose here (apart from anti-Chinese), but please keep the dispute here nicely and try to controvert the explanations itself. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Your most notable contribution to this 'discussion' which has yet to take off due to your refusal to provide sources for your expressed views has been to call other editors "racist" for not agreeing with you. In this view, your repeated references to talk page are a mockery of WP dispute resolution procedure, and nothing but a thinly disguised attempts at asserting yourself by an edit war. You are not seriously interested in solving the dispute by arguments. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

There were plenty of explanations to this dispute by other editors above, please try to controvert the explanations first before you edit this article. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Either you are unwilling or unable to understand that simply asserting things is not enough on WP. Read Wikipedia:Verifiability# Burden of evidence and provide evidence. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Same to you, provide evidence to support your dispute. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, regardless of how much you believe in your side of this dispute, you will not engage in personal attacks on other users again. You should have had several warnings by now having read your contributions. Secondly, previous content in the article, or any other Wikipedia article, is not a reliable source. You can't cite Wikipedia because, paradoxically, Wikipedia does not trust itself. If you can provide external, reliable sources to support your side of the argument then that is fine, but as of yet I can't see a single external link to such a source in your posts. Please do so. Thank you. SGGH ^ping! 09:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, shifting the burden of evidence does not work. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden of evidence explicitly states that

The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.

And I hereby challenge your material. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Somebody has been considered this article is different from other articles. Many other articles have inscribed ethnicity in categories, why suddenly disallow in this article?

I don't see any reason why Bruce Lee's surname being removed in this article? And why Hong Kong citizens of Chinese descent can not referring as Chinese?

Nobody can ever provide external, reliable sources stated that Bruce Lee did not renounce his US citizenship when he returned to HK in 1971. And no reliable sources stated he wasn't Chinese apart from American. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Both of you are heading ito Wikipedia:3RR territory. Bring this to the talk page and let's discuss it, but do so coherently so people can understand it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

It already long here (Talk:Bruce Lee#Lead and categories), but we have made not one bit of progress due to Undefeatedcoller's refusal to play by WP guidelines. So, to repeat myself: For the categories I would like to see either a Wikipedia guideline which allows also entries on the basis of ethnicity, or, if the exclusive criteria is nationality, a reference to a solid source about Lee being a Chinese, that is PRCh citizen. You listed him as Chinese, you provide the proof. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a big mistake.

Gun Powder Ma is the one who wants to make any changes from a “long-term support version” of Bruce Lee’s article.

Gun Powder Ma should be the one needed to provide external, reliable sources and reasonably explanations to support his/her dispute. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 03:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Lead sentence

Per WP:MOSBIO, can we please list sources here for Lee's nationality/citizenship? I am not talking about different laws, but specific citations for Lee in perticular. It seems this would be the first step towards consensus. This isn't about the "truth" or our opinions, this is about what reliable sources state as to his nationality/citizenship. His ethnicity, where he lived, his self identification, what categories he belongs in, how we discribe him as an actor, ect should go below the lead. Anyways, thank you, --Tom (talk) 18:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Second that. The discussion should move from merely putting forward opinions to also citing evidence for them. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This was done some time ago, under Talk:Bruce Lee#Arbitrary break. I imagine it would have been much easier to find had it not been for Undefeatedcooler's stubborn refusal to simply indent his responses. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Shaolin Samurai, I read there, but obviously not as closely as needed. If appropriate, I will move them here after looking at them. Also, please try not to comment about other editors actions/motives if possible, thanks, --Tom (talk) 19:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

It looks like those sources refer to him as Asian-American, ect. Thats not what I am talking about. We need to find sources regarding his citizenship, period. Can we 1st source that he was an American citizen? Being born in the US usually does it for me, but if we are going to be "fair" about this and hold this to the highest standard, that is what would be required. Then we could look at British or Chinese or whatever other citizenship that would go in the lede. Thanks, --Tom (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your question. The terms "Asian American" and "Chinese American" refer to cultural identity as well as citizenship. That should be more than sufficient in establishing his citizenship. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This is the heart of the "problem" most likely here. Those "terms" do not establish citizenship at all, especially for an encyclopedia. Many folks, for example, are called "Irish-American" or "Italian-American" or "Whatever-American" without holding those other citizenships. Those terms usually convey ethnicity. The best thing would be for the source to say "Joe Blow is a citizen of x, y, or z, ect. That would be definitive. Anyways, I need to run but....--Tom (talk) 19:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Please see

• Lee, Linda (1989), The Bruce Lee Story, United States: Ohara Publications, p. 41, ISBN 0897501217

for a reliable reference's mention of Lee's American citizenship. Consult [1] if you do not have a hardcopy reference available. — Myasuda (talk) 20:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

(outdent to left) ...back :)...ok, very good, thank you Myasuda. Now, did lee hold any other citizenship?(sources of course please)....--Tom (talk) 23:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Nobody was ever claiming that he didn't have US citizenship at all. This refusal to acknowledge the fact that being born to Hong Kong-native parents who raised him in Hong Kong among his Hong Kong-native siblings means he had whatever citizenship they had just as automatically as being born on US soil means he had US citizenship (which he did not use in any way, shape or form until he reached adulthood) is indefensible, and reeks of some ulterior motive or hidden agenda. (Note to administrators: Thomas Jefferson's defense of referring to King George III as a tyrant in the Declaration of Independence was, "The King is a tyrant whether we say so or not; we might as well say so." The same principle applies here, and "might as well" was a gross understatement for Jefferson, and is here. This is not "a terrible thing for me to say," but is a terrible thing to be the situation at hand. The proper response to a terrible thing is to deal with it and make it cease to be terrible, not to commit cranial-rectal insertion, pretend that it doesn't exist, and fault a person who points it out for having done just that. That attitude is not only detrimental to the encyclopedia, it is irrational, literally lacking in rationality.) I admit that it would take sources to determine just which citizenship the Hong Kong-based one is, but Gun Powder Ma's repeated statement that Lee was "American only, as is well known" is absolutely WRONG. So was his/her demanding Undefeatedcooler present references when his/her own version was not sourced, and his/her PRC-citizenship-only based definition of Chinese in the category names. I repeat, it is extremely difficult to not suspect some hidden agenda at work here. --Tbrittreid (talk) 00:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

***This is a general civility notice, please keep your cool when editing and making comments. Lets not let this discussion spiral into accusations and overly forceful words. Thank you.***--Frank Fontaine (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I did keep my cool and said no more than what the situation required. Did you fail to read my parenthetical "Note to administrators"? --Tbrittreid (talk) 00:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

You are mistaken that was a general notice for the discussion and not aimed at one particular editor. --Frank Fontaine (talk) 00:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Point taken, and my apologies for my self-centered assumption. --Tbrittreid (talk) 20:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

What’s the purpose of concealing Bruce Lee's Chinese/Hong Kong status by some of the editors here?

The world famous Jet Li has currently taken up Singapore citizenship. Shall we also conceal Jet Li's Chinese status in his article too?

Certainly, when Bruce Lee was living in Hong Kong, he was a HK citizen. (otherwise he wouldn't be able to live there for years).

Someone need to provide reliable sources stated that Bruce Lee was only US citizenship while he was living in Hong Kong. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 03:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

..back :)...guys, can we please try to find citations for citizenship? I can't speak for others, but for me, this isn't about "concealing" anything, or the truth, or whatever. It is about what reliable sources have to say about the matter, period. If a citation regarding citizenship, or maybe what passport(s) he held, ect, that we be very helpful towards cleaning up the LEAD sentence per MOSBIO....anyways, I will try to look for one...also, maybe the BLP noticeboard could also be of help?, thanks, --Tom (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is a 1967 article about Bruce Lee that appeared in Black Belt Magazine, before his popularity exploded. Lee is referred to as "Cantonese" and "although born in the US was not eligible for his US Citizenship until he reached voting age"(age of 18), one would have to take that as between the ages of 4 months and when he emmigrated to America he held the same status as other residents of Hong Kong. He also refers to his own son in the article as a "Chinaman".[2]--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Mike, I indented your comment, hope you don't mind. Do you have a suggestion for how the FIRST sentence should read? After more thought, the idea of including Hong Kong might, big MIGHT, work, but not sure. I had removed it, because what exactly is, or are we trying to say by calling him a "Hong Kong actor"? That he had HK citizenship, or that he worked primarily in HK? Anyways, more eyes here the better :) Also is Hong Kong the same as Chinese? Or could he be British? Again, that is why specific citations regarding citizenship are needed rather than a source "calling" him Cantonese, etc. Do we know what passport(s) he held, and would that be useful?...many questions :)...Cheers, --Tom (talk) 17:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)ps, Mike, also, is the part about him although born in the US was not eligible for his US Citizenship until he reached the age of 18 ("Voting age"), is that from the/a source, or is that your interpretation of how US citizenship law works?..just curious...tia, --Tom (talk) 17:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

As for the term, "Hong Kong Actor", I would call him a Hong Kong Actor because that is where the bulk of his films were made. Not just the "Big Three": Chinese connection, Fists of Fury, and Way of the Dragon, but a good 15-20 films he made as a child in Hong Kong. Enter the Dragon was his only US Studio picture aside from Marlowe where he only had a brief role. Game of Death was the ultimate exploitation film, being cobbled together after his death with raw footage. He was on one US TV series that ran for a single season and guet-starred on at least 5 others. If I recall correctly, the Kung Fu pilot gives him credit as a fight coreographer. I believe Hong Kong and China are the same now regarding citizenship. However, there was a distinction in the past, not just PRC vs Crown Colony; but also language and martial arts. Mainland China refers to the art as Kung Fu, whereas Bruce always used the Hong Kong (Cantonese) term Gung Fu. This characterizes the "style" as being different as well, smaller close movements as opposed to longer more elaborate Northern styles. I do not know anything beyond what is out there in other sources regarding passports/citizenship.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that you are a US Citizen if you are born here. There may have been something in the past about citizenship not guaranteed if unclaimed by a certain age, I don't know for sure. Here is another source relating this:"He was part of a small gang that was big enough to cause his mother to ship him to America before his 18th birthday so he could claim his dual-citizenship and avoid winding up in jail."[3]. Now, dual-citizenship is only recognized by the US for two countries: Ireland and Israel; other countries may recognize it, but the US does not, it is possible HK may have. I know Greece and Iran go back 6 generations regardless of birth. I'll keep digging, here is another quote from a book: "On November 27, 1940, Lee was born to Mr. and Mrs. Lee Hoi Cheun in the year and the hour of the dragon. He would have dual American and Chinese Citizenship,"[4]. Here is another source, a book titled Monitored peril: Asian Americans and the politics of TV representation By Darrell Y. Hamamoto quoting Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's book Giant Steps:"He would have been perfect, a master working his art before the national audience, but whoever it was that decided such things made it clear to Bruce that they didn't think a Chinese man could be a hero in America. They passed over Bruce and gave the part, and the stardom to David Carradine."[5]--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike, I "like" the middle or "4th" cite above. It talks about dual citizenship rather than "being Chinese", which is what I was looking for. I hate using "hypenated", ie, Chinese-American whatever in the lead, but that is what we are now facing I guess. Do you have a suggestion for how the lead sentence should be crafted? Thanks for your help....--Tom (talk) 19:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

That would appear to be the most accurate. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the specifics of British/HK law to speak to whether "dual-citizenship" actually applies. My best guess is that he was a citizen of Hong Kong (or a Commonwealth Subject) based on what I've read here: British nationality law and Hong Kong and related articles. However that might be wandering into the Original Research minefield. If consensus agrees that the source material states Lee had dual citizenship, I would go in that direction; yet, this will come up again when some legal scholar challenges the validity of the term "dual-citizenship" as the US most likely did not recognize it. I'm not a legal expert or immigration expert at all, just a student of Martial Arts for 30+ years, studying Lee's methods and philosophy for close to 25 of those years.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Lee's birth in the USA to Hong Kong natives did indeed give him dual citizenship, but only his parents (as his legal guardians) had the right to decide which one to use, and they raised him under whatever citizenship came with being a "Hong Konger." Bruce had no say in the matter (legally) until reaching his maturity; "eligibile" was a poor word choice. Mike Searson was misquoting the Black Belt article on this point (and, yes, Tom, he was clearly presenting that statement as a quote from the article); it actually reads: "In Hong Kong Bruce always kept in mind the fact that he was born in the United States and was therefore destined for American citizenship when he reached the voting age." This is a citable source (the article is an interview with him, just not presented in transcript form) that Bruce Lee did not consider himself an American citizen as he was growing up in the Lee home in Hong Kong. Period. I also must concede that this contradicts my own previous assertion that no thought was given to the option of utilizing this right until he needed to get out of Hong Kong and away from the street gangs there. I have that article (and its conclusion from the following issue of Black Belt) as reprinted in a 1974 one-off magazine, The Best of Bruce Lee, collecting articles, photo features, and other items about Lee from BB and two other magazines (Karate Illustrated and Fighting Stars) from the same publishers. It's easier (for me, at least) to read than the page Mike linked to, but with his we can get the specific citation for the original presentation of this. Thanks, Mike. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I may have misquoted that as I was reading another about Ang Lee talking about the same subject as I was typing that up, I thought I fixed it, but may have just thrown up quotes on the second edit. I have no agenda beyond writing a factual article. Please Assume Good Faith.  :) I'm still trying to think of a better way to phrase it, but the fact is he was an American citizen by birth. I would have no problem with Black Belt as a source. Or the "Best of" compilation, which I have stashed away somewhere along with a later version they did in the 90's.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

How about this:"Bruce Lee (27 November 1940 – 20 July 1973) was an actor, martial artist, philosopher, film director, film producer, screenwriter, and founder of the Jeet Kune Do concept. He is considered by many as the most influential martial artist of the 20th century, and a cultural icon. Born in a San Francisco hospital to Chinese Hong Kong-native parents who were touring with the Chinese Opera, Lee was an American citizen by birth who was raised in Hong Kong."--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest that your misquote was deliberate, but was merely pointing out the fact that what you put in quotation marks did not match the actual text. After all, other than the use of the word "eligible" (which I labelled "a poor word choice," thereby assuming good faith), the meaning was exactly the same as in the original. You assume good faith. As for your suggestion, how about one slight change, "...to Hong Kong-native parents...." thereby eliminating the potential misinterpretation of PRC citizenship? --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:23, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I know, I threw a smiley in to lighten the mood a bit. One thing about google books is you can't copy+paste...still not sure how I hosed it up as the other piece wasn't like that either. I know you're a good editor, I worked with you on something else not too long ago, can't remember what...anyway...Hong Kong parentage would definitely be more accurate. I think this is more "correct" than trying to encapsulate it in the first sentence as it is rather unique.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I can probably go with whatever you folks agree upon at this point. I was just trying to get some good citations included and a writing that doesn't go into original research. The above suggestion seems to cover the "facts" rather than "labeling" Lee's nationality. Anyways, this is not easy so good luck...--Tom (talk) 14:20, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I think Mikes' lead above is fine. His citizenship is a legal issue and I don't think any of us have the ability to determine what it was at any given time. Just because Lee was waiting doesn't mean he had to, he may have been misinformed about his citizenship rights. He was no lawyer either. So, setting all that aside, we can say, unequivocally, where he was born and who his parents were. Padillah (talk) 17:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

According to Bruce Lee's wife, "upon his arrival Bruce was already a citizen" (see here (p. 41)). Since this is the authorized biography of Lee, we have now the first hard evidence that he was indeed US American. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but indeed dual citizens. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

On what grounds does the article use Template:Infobox Chinese-languaOge singer and actor? Why is not Template:Infobox actor employed as for all other US American actors? I have yet to see an English language infobox for a singer of Chinese nationality... Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:12, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Because Lee was a Hong Kong actor, He was no different from other Hong Kong actors. That’s why.

You always intent to conceal Lee’s Chinese/Hong Kong status, give a reason for that please. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 17:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, can you please use ":"s to indent you posts, I think that was mentioned before. Can you also please try to assume good faith, ie difference of opinion rather than ulterative motives...Gun Powder, I haven't looked at the info box template, but I would agree that an actor info box would be more appropriate than a "singer and actor" one...anyways...--Tom (talk) 17:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

"Assuming good faith" in the presence of evidence to the contrary is counter-productive to resolving the dispute on its own terms, one of which being the lack thereof. --Tbrittreid (talk) 20:53, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Err what evidence? This seems to be a difference of opinion on what info box to use. As Lee largely acted in english the general (non-national specific) {{Infobox actor}} would seem sensible. On a side note Lee was initially raised in Hong Kong, but born in the US and was a US citizen. --Nate^t/_c 13:40, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Concerning Nate's request for evidence to a lack of good faith on Gun Powder Ma's part (despite Tom's statement, I used the term "ulterior motive," not Undefeatedcooler), it is summarized in my post of 7 March under "Lead sentence" and can be seen in his/her posts on this page. Furthermore, this is about a great deal more than infobox choice (I have no idea of there being multiple and legitimate options for film actors). If you can't be bothered to read everything here, you've got no right to post. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:47, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I read a section that wasn't obviously linked to any previous discussion, demanding people read an entire talk page before asking a question is a little over the top. I was passing and joined a discussion, you said there was evidence so I asked where (not an unreasonable request) the stament: You always intent to conceal Lee’s Chinese/Hong Kong status, give a reason for that please clearly implies an ulterior motive, Gun powder's tone was also abrasive, Tom was attempting to calm both sides down and mentioned that @ first glance the general actor template seemed more appropriate as Lee did not act most notably in Chinese. --Nate^t/_c 15:35, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems that all the Hong Kong actors are using the same info box in the English wikipedia. Also American-born Hong Kong actors Daniel Wu, Jaycee Chan, Kevin Cheng etc. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

On a second look I can see the logic as it has the extra fields to cope with Chinese names. --Nate^t/_c 15:35, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Template:Chinese name

The template should be removed, or alternatively, the policy on its use specified. See here: Template talk:Chinese name#Bruce Lee a Chinese name? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The template "the family name is Lee" needs to go.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 01:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, Gun Powder Ma, please keep the dispute here nicely.

Almost every "Hong Konger" has a Chinese birth name as well as an English name (optional), and follows the Western convention of the surname being last in the English Wikipedia. But their surnames were Chinese, has a specific meaning and historical background. See Jackie Chan for example. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:01, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of the template is to signal the reader that the name coming first in Chinese is actually the family name. However, since "Bruce" comes first in "Bruce Lee" and his family name is where every reader expects him to be anyway, namely in second position, the template is as superfluous as a refrigator on the Mount Everest. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

GunPowderMa is correct. The template really serves no purpose here, it would if the article was titled:"Lee Jun Fan", but as it follows the Western naming convention it is not needed.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to do with the surname came first or in the second position.

The purpose of the template is to guide the readers to learn about Lee's historical background and the specific meaning of the surname.

As I've mentioned above: "take a look at Jackie Chan and other Hong Kong actors".

They all follows the Western convention of the surname being last in the English Wikipedia, but they have all got a template. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I apologize, maybe I am misunderstanding something. Which template are we talking about? I see no such template in the same location on the Jacky Chan page?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Because Gun Powder Ma suddenly removed from Jackie Chan's article. (Check History).

I don't understand why he keeps on doing these unnecessary removals from the Chinese ancestral actor’s articles.

I insist that he/she is an "anti-Chinese" editor, and he should be blocked to prevent this racist behavior. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 11:32, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

OK I see it now on both articles. I don't understand the need for it, either. Is it possible to place it lower down? It's bad enough people have to see the "arsonist warning" at the top. I find links like that tend to clutter up the page. If it must go at the top and can be mentioned no where else, my preference would be to remove it alltogether. Calling another editor "anti-Chinese" or racist is bordering on a personal attack. Let's try to work this out peacefully, please.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

It is not personal attack, because he/she keeps on doing these kind of unreasonable removals, it's so annoying.

Nevertheless, the link was actually instructed Lee's historical background and the specific meaning of his surname, therefore, it is absolutely relevant to this article.

If it appeared in other Chinese surnames articles, as well as here long time ago, why suddenly remove it? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Editing can be frustrating, but we all must be mindful how we treat other editors. If the two of you keep going back and forth and edit war over this, we will never make any progress on this article. Comment on content, not on other contributors. His reasons for removal seem sound, as a compromise, can we put the information in the article as a link from the family name somewhere? I can agree with the need for such a link, but I do not feel the template in question is appropriate. This is based on discussions on that template's talk page regarding this article and others.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:43, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

If you agreed with the need for such a link, but want to move the link to somewhere else in the article.

Please do so, rather than being removed by Gun Powder Ma. Thanks. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 11:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I put a link to it in the names section under Early Life. Please advise if this is acceptable.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:05, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Ancestry of Bruce Lee`s mother

So, the single-purpose account is of the strong and unfaltering opinion that Lee's mother was not of as much German ancestry as she was Chinese, so that she was, in his words, only of "partly German" ancestry. Normally, I try to overlook these nationalistic biases, but since the single-purpose account appears to be so intent on proving the Chineseness about everything connected with Bruce, I believe it is in the best of Wikipedia's enlightened tradition to look into the matter further, so that the single-purpose account gets his mental peace and work on the article can finally move on. So, does anyone know from reliable sources whether her mother or her father was German? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:22, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

According to Thomas and another source, her father was German.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

In a prior disucssion, the only reliable sources regarding Lee's mother's parents that were provided were the following:

• Lee, Linda (1989), The Bruce Lee Story, United States: Ohara Publications, p. 20, ISBN 0897501217
• Thomas, Bruce (1994), Bruce Lee: Fighting Spirit : a Biography, Berkeley, California: Frog, Ltd., p. 3, ISBN 1-883319-25-0

The first source, written by Bruce's wife, states that Grace was half German [6]. The second source is more specific and states that Grace's father was German [7] (but this statement is not footnoted in the text and so I could not follow-up further). —Myasuda (talk) 13:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I just found out that Bruce Lee's partial German heritage is indeed highly relevant to his life, since discrimination by fellow Chinese pupils even forced him to leave a martial arts school at a young age (on a personal note: this enlightened attitude might have even stopped him altogether from becoming what he later was, don't you think?). Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Why were they removed? Although I agree that a footnote would be even better, the Thomas Bruce biography is cited below in the article as a main reference, so, unless information surfaces to the contrary, we should not hesitate to add that specific information on his ancestry in the article. I find it noteworthy, too, that she was a Catholic, her belief would have made certainly an impact on Bruce, too. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:02, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

This issue has already been settled and closed by Huo Xin, Misortie and Padillah.

It seems that you always like to start a dispute to ruining this article.

Please look back in the history before you start an edit or dispute, and try to keep this article tidy and truthful. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 15:20, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

The criteria of Wikipedia is WP:Verifiability, and the material I added fulfilled that criteria. You have now for weeks constantly obstruct any progress on the article and your reverts are nothing less, but plain and open edit wars. I requested action against you taken, you single-purpose editor. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

"Requested action against me"?

You intent on ruining the article.

You can't even be bothered and avoided to look back in the history of this talk page. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

You cannot even indent your remarks, although many users have asked you to do this and although this is as difficult as chewing gum, while walking. I don't know why we waste here our time with an single-purpose account who calls other repeatedly racist, and does nothing but obstructing and war-editing one of the most visited articles in the Wikipedia. Either you play here by the rules, like everybody else, or you are soon history. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• • This is what we know: Bruce's mother was Catholic, Bruce attended Catholic school and was introduced to Western Boxing by the Jesuits. Bruce's mother was definitely part German. According to Lee's widow: Linda Lee-Cadwell, Bruce's mother was "half German". According to biographer, Bruce Thomas: Lee's mother was half-German and he specifically says it was her father who was German. Bruce's fellow Wing Chun students did in fact hold his 1/4 Germanic heritage against him.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

So why don't you add the information to the article? Is Undefeatedcooler a more reliable source on Bruce Lee's ancestors than Bruce Lee's wife (!!!) herself? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

What I'm waiting for is UDC to bring forth a credible source that refutes any of this. If he brings forth a source that refutes any or all of this, we weigh it and come to consensus. If not, then I will know who is a serious editor and who is a time-waster.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I don t know if it s interesting for you, but i am german and was always very interested about Lee s german ancestry. In 2002, Bruces younger brother Robert Lee (musician) visited the "Divine Wind" Forum (www.bruceleedivinewind.com / the forum is closed since 2005) and any user could ask him a question, which he responded. I did ask him, and he said: "My mother s father was a german", so it should be a grandfather. I tried to ask Robert if he can give any more informations about him (where he came from, how is name was etc.), but he didn t reply to it. Best regards, CB 1:16, 15 March 2010 (CET). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.225.61 (talk)

I wasn’t the only person who claimed "Grace Ho’s father wasn’t German".

Huo Xin (talk) also recognized Grace Ho’s father wasn’t German. In the previous discussion, Huo Xin said: “All of this arguing is silly and moronic. It was Bruce Lee's grandmother who was half Chinese and half German. If you wish to verify this you can contact his brother, Robert Lee as well as other family members who are alive today. His mother was only a quarter German, thus Bruce Lee was only an 1/8 German.”

The reason we knew that Grace Ho’s father wasn’t German, because Grace Ho was the daughter of the prominent businessman Ho Kom Tong. That’s why her surname was “Ho” (a Chinese surname). They were widely recognized in the Hong Kong communities.

In the previous discussion, I asserted by a relevant source. Somebody concerns about the reliability, I explained: “I just readily found the article from the internet, if you simply type (Grace Ho, Ho Kom Tong) on the internet, there were tons of relevant articles about it.

Please do some research first, rather than just reading a typo in Bruce Thomas’s book. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Huo Xin seems to be indeed the type of person a single-pupose account like you would quote. I will add now the referenced material provided and supportted by Myasuda, Mike and me. Note that one of the references is from Lee's wife herself. If you remove that again, I will report you as edit-warring quicker than Bruce Lee's fist. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:42, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

You have no right to criticise and report us, Huo Xin (talk) surely wasn't a single-pupose account, you racist editor.

The reference from Lee's wife did not stated that Grace Ho's father was German.

If you make an obstinate edit again. I will report you as edit-warring before you did. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, we have at least 2 sources stating that Bruce's mother was half-German. One in fact stating that his maternal grandfather was German. Please bring forth a print source refuting this. Since you are contesting the material, the burden of proof is upon you. Telling other editors to look for it is not the proper way to dispute it. Thanks.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• The book Words of the dragon: interviews 1958-1973 in the Bruce Lee Library states that Bruce Lees Mother was 1/4 German. [8] Not 1/2 like the others apparently.Peppermint Chills —Preceding undated comment added 14:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC).
  • OK, that is a good start. However from the limited preview of the book, I cannot tell who is making the claim, etc. Does anyone have an actual copy of this book so we can tell what the context is? For example, is it coming from Bruce Lee, himself, is it a footnote made by the author?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:11, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if this is a good start. With Lee's wife statement in her biography on Bruce we have the ultimate source. Only a thorough scholarly discussion which provides extensive details and refeences could hope to top that. Otherwise I cannot see any way past his wife's own statement. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I just got a full preview of the book. It actually reprints a 1966 story about Bruce Lee from a magazine called TV Picture Life, stating his mother was "1/4 British" and the book's editor, Little, corrects this in a footnote by saying "she was actually 1/4 German". That is not enough to refute 2 independent tertiary sources, one of which written by Lee's widow stating that Lee's mother was half-German. However, it is a step in the right direction.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• It appear to me notes make by the author. That part of the book is set up to present articles from newspapers and interviews. So the author cleans up confusion by adding footnotes to a sentence that needs more information or to correct an factual error. And example can be found.
  • • • The newspaper or interview = [9]
      • his note = [10]
• The only problem now is that the limited preview prevents you to find the footnote placed for his mother's ancestry.I really dont think it matters anyway But as a with the fact presented as a footnote [11], the author seems to be confident to state 1/4 German.Peppermint Chills 14:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ has a point. I guess we need another source then.Peppermint Chills 14:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Blackbelt editors state 1/4 german. [12]Peppermint Chills 14:54, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Bruce the source says is 1/4 fourth German, that is his mother was half-German. What are we waiting for btw? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:01, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Mito, the author of that piece in Black Belt, is a good source. Let me do some more fact-checking, I think this is a good step toward compromise.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

You see, even the Blackbelt editors stated that she was "three-fourths chinese and one- fourth german". Undefeatedcooler (talk) 15:13, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Not as reliable and an extremely limited view "Everybody was Kung Fu fighting: Afro-Asian connections and the myth of.." State 1/4 German[13]Peppermint Chills 15:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, an Admin haslocked the article due to edit-warring for one week. I suggest everyone use that time to bring forth their reliable sources and bring concerns here to the talk page where we can hammer it out. Use this time constructively and we'll be able to produce a better article, or don't and we'll be mired down in this senseless bickering and the article will get locked again.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

More book support for Grace being half German:

• Campbell, Sid; Lee, Greglon (2006), Remembering the Master: Bruce Lee, James Yimm Lee, and the Creation of Jeet Kune Do, United States: Blue Snake Books, p. 169, ISBN 1583941487 (see [14])
• Clouse, Robert (1988), Bruce Lee: The Biography, United States: Unique Publications, p. 9, ISBN 0865681333 (search inside [15])
• Thomas, Bruce (2006), Immortal Combat: Portrait of a True Warrior, United States: Blue Snake Books, p. 3, ISBN 1583941738 (see [16])
• Thomas, Bruce (2005), Bruce Lee: Fighting Words, United States: Frog Books, p. 15, ISBN 1583941258 (see [17])

— Myasuda (talk) 02:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

The first two books that Myasuda has presented appears to state the father is of German descent. The Last two state she is is 1/2 German. Peppermint Chills 06:32, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, three of them state that Grace's father was German. All four support Grace being half German. As do the other two books I mentioned earlier. — Myasuda (talk) 13:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I propose a different approach which may turn out fruitful: If someone could check on the vita of Bruce's father Lee Hoi-chuen who was also a prominent person, there is more of a chance to find something out about the background of his wife. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:08, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems some stated 1/2 but some stated 1/4. That’s why I would never trust those “so-called” reliable sources, and we can never reach a consensus from those materials

Lets look into more details on the issues:

How come Grace Ho had a Chinese surname “Ho” (if her father was German)? There were number of rumours citing that she was the daughter of the prominent businessman Ho Kom Tong.

Ho Kom Tong was actually an Eurasian. That possibly made Grace Ho as part of German.

I also agreed we could check on the vita of Bruce's father Lee Hoi-Chuen and Ho Kom Tong to find more informations about the background of Grace Ho. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Bear in mind, we have six credible sources from published books backing up the "Mother was half German", including Lee's widow, version as opposed to two sources stating she was 1/4 German. One of those is weak, really correcting the "English vs German" argument; the other is credible, but only appears in a magazine. See what can be found on Lee's grandparents, but be careful of Original Research. As for a compromise, if nothing else is found in the next 6-days, we will go with the credible sources and add a footnote stating that Mito and one other source state his mother was 1/4 German, not half. Remember, we can only put in the article what we can prove from a verifiable source.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:47, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

.Second that. But the reference by Mrs. Lee needs to be quoted verbatim to bar another onslaught by ignorant single-purposers. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike, I would like to ask: what does “verifiable source” mean?

It seems none of them were “verifiable sources”.

I think we need to find a proper interview by Robert Lee, other members of Grace Ho's family (or a credible family tree) to make a verification. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Well here is another book for 1/4 ----Prashad, Vijay (2002), Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting: Afro-Asian Connections and the Myth of Cultural Purity, United States: Beacon Press, p. 127, ISBN 0807050113 Peppermint Chills 01:11, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, here is on that says that Bruce Lee is 1/8 German, now if my math is right, it backs up 1/4 German.Snipped view, so just follow link.[18] This also backs up Huo Xin's statement found here [19] Peppermint Chills 01:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Grace Ho's mother was half German, thus she was 1/4 and Bruce was 1/8 German. this has been said before, just look back, you guys are just worried about sources instead of the facts.There is obviously a conflict with facts going on, nearly split. The reason why you guys are finding her as "half" is because the authors didn't bother to look any farther back in the family tree, they saw "German and Chinese descent" and quickly assumed Half. Jut look at the context shown; one of the sources describe her as Chinese, but then go into a little more detail about her parents to found out some German in her. But they don't go any farther. You would then find out that her mother was half German, hence why the other sources have stated "1/4 German" They didn't just make it up make it upGonetohome (talk) 03:17, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

All right. I think the following link will settle this debate once and for all. At the 3:40-3:50 minute mark of the video link [20], Robert Lee states that his mother is half-Caucasian. — Myasuda (talk) 04:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Because Grace Ho’s father was Eurasian and her mother was half German. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:14, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The video does solve the half-Caucasian, Nice find Myasuda. But he did not say anything specific about the German decent. We need to find a quote that states 1/4 or 1/2 German. I don't think we have any disagreement that Grace Ho is half-Caucasian, as we cannot doubt Robert about that, we have a disagreement about 1/4 or 1/2 German.Peppermint Chills 12:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

In case the YouTube link ever expires, I'll note here that the video is from ""Famous Families" The Lees: Action Speaks Louder (1999)" [21]. From Robert Lee's statement in the video clip, we conclude that Grace was half-Chinese (and therefore Bruce Lee was 3/4 Chinese and 1/4 Caucasian). This is consistent with the six book sources I listed, and it does invalidate the Black Belt magazine reference (which claims Grace was 3/4 Chinese). The only question that User:Peppermint Chills has is apparently whether Grace's Caucasian parent is full German or half-German. Given Robert Lee's statement in the video, and the fact that no other European ancestry is ever mentioned for Grace, I think we can have enough confidence to rely on Linda Lee's book that she was half-German. Concur? — Myasuda (talk) 13:52, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

“Half-Caucasian” doesn't mean “Half-German”.

If she was really half-German, Robert would have mentioned “half-German” instead of “half-Caucasian”. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:52, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

So, how do we proceed? In my view it is sufficiently established that Bruce Lee was one fourth German and his mother half-German, since this is what the person most qualified says, his wife, as well as other serious biographers. Differing views about the percentage and Causasian heritage should be put in footnotes. Undefeatedcooler was the only 'editor' involved who did not provide a single source which was, to be plain, expected. Therefore, I propose if he continues to be obstructive we move the whole discussion to the board on disruptive editing which would then be a better place indeed.

Agreed, it is established by the sources we have available that Bruce Lee was 1/4 German, a footnote should mention what Mito claimed (that his mother was 1/4 German).--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I further propose that, without any proof of Bruce ever having been a Chinese citizen, the pertinent categories are removed as well the infobox replaced with the "US American actor" box, as in Chuck Norris. Here, too, the statement of Lee's wife that he was a citizen already upon his arrival in the United States is the best source we have, although one would wish she would have been even more clear on that point. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Disagree partially here. The majority of Bruce's movies were HK movies. While Bruce was definitely a US Citizen, he was definitely a Hong Kong actor.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced about the 1/4 or 1/2 German ancestry deal, Still some holes, but for now i agree with Mike that 1/2 should be used in the Article, and have the footnote about Mito. That is the best we can do for now. Peppermint Chills 19:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Quick question, why don't we just use half Caucasian in the article instead of German as you can't really cite Robert Lee on that because he really didn't say half German and instead have the German ancestry conflicts in the Footnotes? Peppermint Chills 20:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it matters, whether we say "German" or "European" or that his mother was "Eurasian". As long as it is not worded in an awkward manner. Sometimes well-meaning editors trip over themselves to be politically correct and it raises more questions than it solves.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

At this point, I feel that there's no compelling reason to not use "half-German" to describe Grace's ancestry in the article. A footnote regarding Mito is fine, but Linda Lee's book should be regarded as the most reliable written source that has been presented on this particular matter. Robert Lee's quote may lack specificity, but it also doesn't contradict Linda's book. And further, Linda had the closest contact with the Lee family among all the authors listed (both before and after Bruce's death). As there's been no convincing evidence to show that she's mistaken on this matter, I feel that we can proceed as both User:Gun Powder Ma and User:Mike Searson have suggested.— Myasuda (talk) 03:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I take back my comment about the Mito footnote. Since it contains an inaccuracy (saying that Bruce's mother was 3/4 Chinese), as demonstrated by the Robert Lee quote, there's no reason to even reference it.— Myasuda (talk) 04:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Robert Lee's statement in the video was the “only” reliable source that had provided here. Therefore, "half-Caucasian" is most appropriate to this statement in the article, and we could use Robert Lee's quote as a reference point. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, please see WP:RS, thanks.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so what is the consensus on the Chinese-related categories ("Chinese philosophers" etc.) and the infobox? We keep the infobox on the grounds that most of his films were originally in Chinese (were they?), but remove the categories for lack of evidence of his Chinese citizenship? To me this sounds ok. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

"Categories" are not just about citizenship (anything that related to Lee), and he was at least dual citizens, understand? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 10:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Hatnote no longer relevant

Would someone with sufficient editing privileges please remove the hatnote referring to Bruce Lee (arsonist)? The article has been deleted as an attack page. Favonian (talk) 22:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks like it was dealt with, thanks Tim!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:56, 15 March 2010 (UTC)