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Just common sense really, no English speaker would call him William, would call him Wilhelm
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*'''Keep it where it stands'''. As said above, we have already just had this argument, so stet., let it stand. We went through all the business of before. We don't need to argue about "Kaiser" being "Caesar" or "King" or whatever, since it does not form part of his article title, neither does any other king queen or noble have that as part of their article title, so the point it moot. [[Punch (magazine)]] and various music-hall songs refer to him as [[Kaiser Bill]], which redirects to this article, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest the article had that title. By that same reductio ad absurdem, to convert it to William is pure pedantry, because he is not known by that name. Take [[WP:COMMONNAME]] as stated above. [[User:SimonTrew|Si Trew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 07:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
*'''Keep it where it stands'''. As said above, we have already just had this argument, so stet., let it stand. We went through all the business of before. We don't need to argue about "Kaiser" being "Caesar" or "King" or whatever, since it does not form part of his article title, neither does any other king queen or noble have that as part of their article title, so the point it moot. [[Punch (magazine)]] and various music-hall songs refer to him as [[Kaiser Bill]], which redirects to this article, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest the article had that title. By that same reductio ad absurdem, to convert it to William is pure pedantry, because he is not known by that name. Take [[WP:COMMONNAME]] as stated above. [[User:SimonTrew|Si Trew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 07:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
*'''support''' per common name principles.[[Special:Contributions/12.28.236.6|12.28.236.6]] ([[User talk:12.28.236.6|talk]]) 23:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:01, 27 July 2011

Revelations made in Kaiser's Memoirs

A scanned copy of the Kaiser's My Memoirs: 1878-1918, Cassell and Company (1922) is available at http://books.google.com/books?id=ywZoAAAAMAAJ&dq=kaiser+%22My+Memoirs and contains the following truly startling revelations about various schemes that were being concocted by the other powers. These revelations, which I had posted here some time ago and have since been deleted, are very serious and should be given some mention in the article.

1. The British-American-French agreement of 1897: On pp. 69-70, the Kaiser wrote the following.

Professor Usher, in his book published in 1913, made known for the first time the existence and contents of an 'agreement' or 'secret treaty' between England, America and France, dating from the spring of 1897. In this it was agreed that, in case Germany or Austria, or both of them, should begin a war for the sake of 'Pan-Germanism,' the United States should at once declare in favour of England and France and go to the support of these Powers with all its resources. Professor Usher cites at length all the reasons, including those of a colonial character [conquest of the Spanish dependencies, control over Mexico and Central America, the opening up of China and the annexation of coaling stations], which inevitably imposed upon the United States the necessity of taking part, on the side of England and France, in a war against Germany, which Professor Usher, in 1913, prophesied as imminent!

Roland Greene Usher was a professor of political science at Washington University, in St. Louis. His book Pan-Germanism was published in February 1913. The various scanned chapters are at http://books.google.com/books?id=YFwMAAAAYAAJ Chapter X discusses the secret agreement of 1897.

2. The Russo-French proposal for war against England in 1900: On pages 79-84, the Kaiser discusses how the Kruger telegram was composed by Marshall and the controversy that it created. The Kaiser also makes the following revelation.

In February, 1900, [...] I received news by telegraph [...] that Russia and France had proposed to Germany to make a joint attack on England, now that she was involved elsewhere [in the Boer War], and to cripple her sea traffic. I objected and ordered that the proposal should be declined.
Since I assumed that Paris and St. Petersburg would present the matter at London in such a way as to make it appear that Berlin had made this proposal to both of them, I immediately telegraphed from Heligoland to Queen Victoria and to the Prince of Wales (Edward) the facts of the Russo-French proposal, and its refusal by me. The Queen answered expressing her hearty thanks, the Prince of Wales with an expression of astonishment.

3. Joseph Chamberlain’s proposal for war against Russia in 1901: On pp. 101-103, the Kaiser makes some startling revelations about Joseph Chamberlain's proposal, made in the spring of 1901, for an alliance between Britain and Germany. According to the Kaiser:

I immediately asked: 'Against whom?'--for it was evident that if England so suddenly offered to make an alliance in the midst of peace, she needed the German army, which made it worth while to find out against whom the army was needed and for what reason German troops were to fight, at England's behest, by her side. Thereupon the answer came from London that they were needed against Russia, for Russia was a menace both to India and to Constantinople.
The first thing I did was to call London's attention to the old traditional brotherhood-in-arms between the German and Russian armies, and the close family ties between the reigning dynasties of the two countries; in addition I pointed out the dangers of a war on two fronts, in the event of France coming in on the side of Russia, [. . .] and that there was no reason to unloose a conflict with Russia at this time, when we were in the midst of peace;

The Kaiser also realized that:

in case of our making common cause against Russia, Germany would be the only one who would be in great danger [. . .] and Chamberlain's 'plan' therefore came to nothing. Soon afterwards England concluded her alliance with Japan (Hayashi). The Russo-Japanese War broke out, in which Japan--owing to the fact that it fitted in with her schemes--played the role of pawn in England’s interests, which role had originally been reserved for Germany. By this war, Russia was thrown from the East back to the West, where she might concern herself again with the Balkans, Constantinople and India--a result clearly to Japan’s advantage--leaving Japan with a free hand in Korea and China.

Italus (talk) 04:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The poor Kaiser was never well informed about world affairs and was always dreaming up episodes that never happened. On #1 there never was such an agreement --it's odd that the Kaiser bases his knowledge on an American essay that came out in 1913--in it Usher admits he has no evidence whatever for any such plan--and no historian has ever found any. People interested in what really happened should look at a RS like AJP Taylor, The struggle for mastery in Europe 1848-1918 pp 396-7Rjensen (talk) 04:58, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wilhelm II, the Evil One?

This article has some serious issues in it. Certainly the most serious one is the "Did he hate Jews or not?" issue. Another one that I noticed is that the article seems to portray him as somekind of evil leader. Sentences like "He often tried to bully his royal relatives", "possessed of a quick intelligence, but unfortunately this was often overshadowed by a cantankerous temper", "he remained convinced that he belonged to a distinct order of mankind", " Wilhelm was accused of megalomania as early as 1892", "The hyper-masculine military culture of Prussia in this period did much to frame Wilhelm's political ideals as well as his personal relationships", "Both sides of his family had suffered from mental illness, and this may explain his emotional instability", etc., etc., etc...

And the parts of the article which seems to reveal Wilhelm II as somekind of earlier Hitler is of bad taste. There is no one in Wikiproject Germany working on its royals' articles? --Lecen (talk) 14:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

crying "Hitler" does not help poor Wilhelm. the Kaiser scores very low indeed among the scholars cited as RS--a good reason for abolishing the monarchy in the view of most Germans. I have not seen a single scholar giving him high marks for personality, diplomacy or military leadership. (The article does tell about his good deeds for science). Rjensen (talk) 09:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your reply still has not answered why he is portrayed in this cartoonish way in this article. --Lecen (talk) 12:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
because that's how leading historians depict him--as an incompetent, bumbling fool who always made matters worse. It's Wiki's job to reflect the work of the experts. Rjensen (talk) 13:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not how "leading historians" describe him. That's how historians from the era of Tuchman describes Wilhelm, but modern historians are much more neutral in their portrayal, by citing the good things that Wilhelm accomplished, such as the dismissal of Bismarck and pointing out that things like the Daily Telegraph crisis, while scandalous, had no effect whatsoever on world events. -- LightSpectra (talk) 05:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking as a reader from England I can see that this article contains points of view, something wikipedia should not contain. It is not for wikipedia editors to synth an article with POV's in this way. It is also not for wikipedia to direct an article toward a negative stance. Earlier historians may have been influenced by propoganda. The article needs balance and needs more work to be objective. At present this article tells me that Kaiser Bill as he was known here was the brains behind the theories that led to the Nazi exterminations in world war II, was he? it does not tally with what the English are taught. --88.104.19.133 (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
LightSpectra, you should try Emil Ludwig's unflattering biography of 1927, long before Tuchman, based entirely on quotations from Willi's friends. Or just quote Alexander III of Russia, "c'est un enfant mal élevé" - the ultimate put-down.86.42.193.86 (talk) 05:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hang the Kaiser

There was a movement in 1918-19 by the victorious allies in their Pyrrhic victory to hang the Kaiser. Many new orphans and widows felt it was just There is no discussion or mention of it here, nor why the Dutch protected slick Willy for 22 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.7.23.169 (talk) 12:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Hang the Kaiser" was a political slogan used, with great success, by David Lloyd George in the December 1918 British general election. The request for the extradition and trial of the Kaiser was mostly "pro forma." The Dutch government had no intention to accept it--probably much to the relief of the British and French governments.Italus (talk) 17:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where are your sources in first section?

He has behaviour of type X, some policy is considered Y etc.? According to who? Person edit my 'vandalism' does not address this. If no source, no valid statement! If Wiki lets edit so, anyone can say so! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.154.10 (talk) 05:47, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First, you were reverted by a bot not a human...and the bot was correct. What you did was made a mess. Citations are often not found in the lead section because those points are addressed in the body per this guideline. If you find that something in the lead is not addressed in the article body, then you bring it here to the talk page to ask. I'd suggest that you look for the answers you seek there first.
If within the body, you see that something needs citations then you use {{cn}} which stands for citation needed but do not place that many at once (known to editors as "driveby tagging")...it is too unprofessional to do that many. Rather, you should come here to the talk page to inquire. Thank you,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 18:43, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 19:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

– The phrase 'German Emperor' is ugly and clunky, very few people searching for information on any of the articles requested for move are going to type in the long winded names above unless they are a regular viewer of the page (in which case they will quickly adapt to any new name). Kaiser has become a lone word to the English language used to specifically describe the German Emperors to use it would therefore be much more reflective of the usage in English. These three articles are some of the more unique named on Wikipedia due to the use of NAME, German Emperor rather than NAME of Germany but the reason for the articles being named like this has been explained a number of times and can be found in the archives of their talk pages. While articles about the Russian Tsars do not use Tsar in the title of the page (as they are styled normally) they use Tsar rather than King in their main articles reflecting a precedence for using lone words, if these moves are supported then obviously the article texts should be changed to read Kaiser rather than German Emperor/Emperor but this would only take a copy of seconds using find and replace. I understand there has been some debate about whether to use the German or English versions of the monarchs names but this is a different situation than whether to use Kaiser of not, currently one of the articles is entitled Wilhelm and the other William, while this should be resolved I do not want the main premise of this move request to become overshadowed by this detail so any move requests affecting the names should wait until this request has been closed. Shatter Resistance (talk) 15:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles. Larger comments, general discussion and alternative proposals should be expressed in the Discussion area below or in a new relevant subsection.

Discussion

  • Briefly, as a way of distinguishing them from the Holy Roman Emperors, who can also be of Germany. Since there is a Frederick III in both sets, this is not a hypothetical problem, but a real one. Since there is a natural form of disambiguation, we use it.
Okay so there seems to be a very strong census against my proposal but numerous suggestions that Kaiser Wilhelm II be used (A name I also actually prefer to my own proposal but which I did not think would get any support). Therefore I will apply to get this discussion closed and open a new one proposing Kaiser Wilhelm II. However, should Wilhelm I/William I and Frederick III also be included in that application? Shatter Resistance (talk) 19:04, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Powers T 19:06, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You could but I don't think it will get the same level of support. While Commonname could be held to apply to "Kaiser Bill", the other two are really quite obscure by comparison. GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They can have NCROY titles: "William I of Germany" and "Frederick III of Germany." The other Frederick III is at Frederick III, Holy Roman Emperor, so he wouldn't have to be moved. Kauffner (talk) 00:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is not who is at what title. It's the fact that "Frederick III of Germany" which now links to Frederick the Fair can be used to refer to him and Frederick III, Holy Roman Emperor and Frederick III, German Emperor.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 07:45, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That remains true regardless of what article titles we use. We can't stop people from people from having the same names. Kauffner (talk) 08:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But we can use distinct titles. Frederick the Fair was not Emperor of Germany; the brief reign of Queen Victoria's son-in-law was not as Holy Roman Emperor; so the present titles are at least unambiguous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You don't want to use the obvious name because it could conceivable refer to more than one person? Frederick III of Germany is not the title of any article at the moment. As a redirect, it gets 30 views a month -- not all of them necessarily looking for Frederick the Fair. It not a common search term for any topic, and not phrase that is used in the RS. It a wikistyle that we created. It refers to whatever we point it at. It is a fallow piece of domain space, waiting for us to put it to good use. Kauffner (talk) 17:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Frederick_III_of_Germany should be a dab page; or there should be a hat note. I'm not arguing that we must do things as we do; merely recording that there was a reason we decided to. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:20, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move: To "Kaiser Wilhelm II"

Wilhelm II, German Emperor → Kaiser Wilhelm II – The subject is most commonly referred to as "the Kaiser". It is intuitively obvious that "the Kaiser" is short for "Kaiser Wilhelm II". The currently title is a hybrid of German and English, as well as an unnatural "name, title" format designed to meet the alphabetization needs of dead tree reference works. "German emperor" "Wilhelm II" | "William II" -Wikipedia yields 5,490 post-1980 English-language Google Book hits, compared to 49,100 for Kaiser "Wilhelm II" | "William II" -wikipedia. So he is called "kaiser" a whole lot more than "German emperor", quite apart from the other issues involved. Relisting; discussion is still active here. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Kauffner (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If this suggested move were to fail in support, my second choice would be to move to Wilhelm II of Germany, as this as well would be more appropriate than Wilhelm II, German Emperor, and would keep the style of the majority of other article on monarchs. The same for Wilhelm I and Frederick III.
As for the issue with 'Frederick III of Germany' being redirected to Frederick the Fair, the redirect can be changed to the Frederick III disambiguation page to solve that. -- Lord Gorbachev (talk) 21:59, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Would you support moving the Austrian Emperors to "Kaiser", as well? Opera hat (talk) 10:58, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Austrian Emperors have the format [Name] of [Country], besides Francis I who has the format [Name], [Title]. And that is because he is also the last Holy Roman Emperor, and the Holy Roman Emperors have the [Name], [Title] format. Personally, the only Austrian Emperor I've heard referred to as 'Kaiser' in the English language is Franz Joseph I, but due to the fact that I haven't studied Austrian history as much as I have German and Russian history, I can't really support or oppose the Austrian emperors being moved to 'Kaiser'. Then that would possibly lead into whether we should call the Holy Roman Emperors 'Kaiser', which I would oppose, because no one calls them Kaisers in the English language. -- Lord Gorbachev (talk) 01:48, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Es giebt nur ein Kaiserstadt,
's giebt nur ein Wien! Quoted by Hans Christian Andersen before Franz Joseph came to the throne. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The official title for the Holy Roman Emperors was in Latin, Romanorum Imperator Augustus. No logic in calling them "kaiser". Kauffner (talk) 13:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Das ist, der Kaiser des Heiligen Römischen Reiches. Where do you suppose the Hohenzollern found the title? If we can speak German for one set of Emperors, we can for two. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have decided to change my vote to Oppose due to the fact that if the move were successful, it would apply only to Wilhelm II, and in my opinion it could possibly be confusing to some people without a consistency in the titles with the three German Emperors. I know some people don't mind Wilhelm II being the only one with a different title, but I just feel differently about it. Its not like there are many German Emperors, and only a few have different common names; (e.g. Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, Ivan the Terrible, of the Russian monarchy). There are only three, and I feel their names should be consistent. As I feel I should mention, I don't necessarily have a problem with the titles of the articles of the German Emperors' as it is now, I just figured they could be improved with a more common form. Also, the current format is slightly funky, in my honest opinion.
Nevertheless, I have a better idea for this particular issue. So if the move were to fail, I'd strongly suggest that the common title of "Kaiser" for Wilhelm II should be mentioned within the lead paragraph; as to mention Kaiser Wilhelm II as a common name for him. -- Lord Gorbachev (talk) 08:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • support per common name principles. But specifically without prejudice to the article names of other German emperors which should be decided on merits of case by case. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:07, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: links to this discussion have been posted on WT:ROYALTY and WT:GERMANY. — Favonian (talk) 22:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. We've just been through this, immediately above. There is no reason, in this English Wikipedia, to use Kaiser for the German Emperor. Those who worry about hybrid forms should support moving this page back to William II. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:20, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, and there was significant support for this idea in that section, so I don't see why "We've just been through this" should be any reason to avoid getting a clear reading on this proposal. Powers T 01:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know that it is preferred to use English in the English Wikipedia, but the the common name used in the English language also applies. For example, Hitler's title in the German language is "der Führer", and in the English language the title "the Führer, or Fuehrer" is used, hardly ever "the Leader" or "the Guide". I feel that the same concept applies here as 'Wilhelm II' is more commonly referred to as "the Kaiser"(der Kaiser) in the English language, and less commonly "the Emperor". Of course, Führer is used to refer to Hitler much more than Kaiser is used to refer to Wilhelm II, but it is still the same concept. -- Lord Gorbachev (talk) 01:28, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The No. 1 biography is Kaiser Wilhelm II (2000, 2009) by Christopher Clark. Then there is The Last Kaiser: The Life of Wilhelm II (2003), The Kaiser and his Court (1994), and Germany in the Age of Kaiser Wilhelm II (1996). When a word is used routinely in the titles of popular books, that's pretty mainstream English. Kauffner (talk) 01:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The statistics here, show what is the most common name used when people search for Wilhelm II on Google, and it proves that without a doubt it is "Kaiser Wilhelm II". -- Lord Gorbachev (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tried using the UK, but I added "Kaiser Wilhelm" (without the II) [1] and repeated for the US. "Kaiser Wilhelm" predominates as a term. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am surprised to find that this proposal is controversial. The current name is quite non-standard, not his common name, not his official style, not his native name, and not a title based on WP:NCROY. What's the reason for it? As near as I can tell, it reflects a preceived need to avoid confusion between German Emperor Frederick III and King Frederick the Fair. The king got 417 page views in the last 30 days, compared to 46145 for "Wilhelm II, German Emperor". Not only that, but the king already has a perfectly good, non-ambiguous title that would not be affect by this move. Kauffner (talk) 02:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is based on naming conventions. WP:NCROY#Sovereigns point 3 “However, in some cases the title rather than the state is followed, including: for the Holy Roman Emperors (until 1806): Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor. for the German Emperors (1871–1918): William I, German Emperor (not "of Germany")” - dwc lr (talk) 02:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You mean, because this title is listed as an exception in NCROY? That is a description of the existing situation, which would change if we moved the article. To list a title as an exception without any further explanation is an acknowledgement that it does not follow any convention. Kauffner (talk) 01:18, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The current title is fine. I particularly oppose the idea of "Kaiser Frederick III," which is just an awkward mixture of German and English forms. john k (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the nom, the logic of this proposal is that in English "Kaiser" is the short form, common name of this individual in particular. So there is no suggestion of applying the word to anyone else. That was the move request immediately above, which I voted against and which was rejected. Kauffner (talk) 03:12, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The systematic name would be Wilhelm II of Germany, not the current title. Kauffner (talk) 05:41, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The current title is systematic. There is not only one system at work in Wikipedia for article titling. Srnec (talk) 03:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The title is not going to work with Frederick III in the way. I was going to support this move to Kaiser Wilhelm II, as long as the other two pages are left alone, due to the fact it his most common name in English. But I see that most people are not in favor of it. I just want to say I strongly oppose any form with "of Germany" at the end for these three German Emperors.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 06:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Question - Would it be acceptable to say "Wilhelm II of [something else]", maybe "of the German Empire"? -GTBacchus(talk) 08:43, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Answer - Not for me. But that's not the title under discussion. Also this and this seems to show that "Wilhelm II, German Emperor" is not totally uncommon.
        • Many move requests are closed with moves to titles other than the one originally proposed. There's no rule that we have to have a separate request for each possible title we may think about. It's good to brainstorm and possibly discover good compromises that we wouldn't have thought of otherwise. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:25, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Not an improvement. Deb (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Powers 208.248.82.6 (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep it where it stands. As said above, we have already just had this argument, so stet., let it stand. We went through all the business of before. We don't need to argue about "Kaiser" being "Caesar" or "King" or whatever, since it does not form part of his article title, neither does any other king queen or noble have that as part of their article title, so the point it moot. Punch (magazine) and various music-hall songs refer to him as Kaiser Bill, which redirects to this article, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest the article had that title. By that same reductio ad absurdem, to convert it to William is pure pedantry, because he is not known by that name. Take WP:COMMONNAME as stated above. Si Trew (talk) 07:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • support per common name principles.12.28.236.6 (talk) 23:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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