User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Collaboration, interaction, understanding, and bridging gaps

This user has signed the Neurotypical / Autism spectrum interaction pact.

Hi Jimbo and watchers! A short while back I posted here on the subject of Wikipedia being a honey trap for Autism-spectrum (including Asperger's) editors, and how we should bear this in mind as simple differences in thought-processing and language-processing can cause misunderstandings even when both / all parties are acting in the best of good faith. Following on from this (and from promptings from a few other editors!) I wrote this essay.

Anyone interesting in bridging this gap might also want to sign up to the interaction pact, and maybe add the userbox alongside to their user page with {{User:ThatPeskyCommoner/Userboxes/APact}} to help raise awareness. Pesky (talk) 04:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Adding: as a community, we need to be aware of the adverse effects of Mentalism (discrimination) just as much as those of racism, sexism, ageism, and all the other "isms". Pesky (talk) 07:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure any such problems will go away once DSM-5 comes out :) I think this may be at the basis of a major problem with articles - their accessibility and suitableness for reading on an internet device. We really need something saying more than just Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, unfortunately that just gets editors cramming information in. They consider things like size limits as restrictions on their shovelling yet more important information in rather than as guidelines to help them produce something better for the reader. I believe we should also have an aim to be read and to inform. Dmcq (talk) 09:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

We agree always to try hard to remember that neurotypical editors really can get "lost" or corrupted "data files"; what on earth does that mean? --Errant ^(chat!) 09:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes that wording is a little unusual; I'm not sure what it means. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It's a metaphor. It is not unusual if you read the essay it is referring to first. Viriditas (talk) 11:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I got the "data files" - the significance of "lost" is, umm, lost on me :) unless it is a copyedit error and the correct meaning is lost or corrupted "data files". As an aside, I showed this to a diagnosed aspergers friend and he said (quote) "Ugh, I hate all the nicey-nicey just because I'm an aspie. It's degrading". Just adding a contrary viewpoint. --Errant ^(chat!) 13:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The wording of policy should be formulated to make it accessible and clear to everyone. This is a concept called universal design, it means that rather than designing for the average user, you design for people with differing native languages, genders, racial and ethnic backgrounds, abilities, and disabilities.

I feel the target should be ALL editors, rather than the Average editor. I think naming or defining the interactions between the the mutants and the humans is not the precision path, I love and respect my Auntie's intentions here, but peaceful people do not draw up treaties or talk of peace. People who speak of peace are those who go to war. To say "we should include everyone" is to speak with a single voice. But to say "we should have a pact between the groups" or to say "we should have a treaty" is to draw lines between the groups. If I tell my friend "I like you even though you have brown eyes. I think there is nothing wrong with having brown eyes" and tell each of my friends the same thing, it's reverse psychology. They think I hate people with brown eyes. "Include everyone" contains no reverse psychology dynamic. This is the path to unity. Penyulap ☏ 16:58, 25 Jul 2012 (UTC)

@Errant: the "lost" data files are just that - memories which either never got saved, or have somehow been deleted! It can be hard for aspies and auties to get a grip on the fact that NT's really can "not remember" stuff. Or remember it wrongly. I don't think we should be "nicey nicey", either; but I also don't think any of us should be equating high-functioning autism-spectrum people as "disabled" or "less competent", or any of that stuff. It's just a different method of processing, with emphasis on data-handling and not on "people-stuff". @Pen: I'm sure we need something to remind ourselves that we A-spectrum people need to make allwoances for the comparative dysfunctionality of NTs in some areas; and vice versa. There's an awful lot of misunderstanding just because each type doesn't have any personal first-hand knowledge of the operating system of the other type. Pesky (talk) 17:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm; memory is only one of many features of people on the autism spectrum. I know very many people with such classifications who have worse memory than I do (and mine is pretty bad). Also; I'd suggest that a pact & essay that comments on certain people on the autism spectrum having difficulty with unclear, imprecise, or ambiguous language probably shouldn't be using an unclear sentence immediately afterward ;) One of the key things about Autism is that it manifests in many very different ways - if we are talking about accommodating different viewpoints, and adopting clarity in our policies, procedures and interactions, then let's do so. I'd certainly benefit from that :) People are idiosyncratic; many of us here could probably be shown to display autistic traits. But equally many of us are not. I'm cautious about making such a big deal over it - just as I am cautious about making a big deal over any minority. It usually just ends up enforcing bias and dislike more than anything else. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

p.s. Pesky; the point I was making r.e. that sentence is that because "lost" and "data files" are quoted a basic reading of that sentence suggest them as two different points - or to put it another way why is "lost" quoted, but not corrupted? --Errant ^(chat!) 19:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Heh! OK, so I'm not perfect; and what I write isn't always perfect either! Yes, I know that memory isn't always the distinguishing feature; however, I have noticed that, in WikiLand, it seems to be the one which causes the biggest misunderstandings-of-NT's, for A-spectrum people who do have the memory thing. If you can remember, for example, every discussion, what everyone said, on a talk page about a subject for the last two years, and if that's totally natural for you, then when other people misremember stuff, or just don't remember at all, then it can really seem as though they're deliberately misrepresenting things, or distorting things, or just plain lying about it "to fool people". That's a big issue here. In the same way as NT's can think / say "How can you possibly not understand what I said? You're just being disruptive!", A-spectrummers can think / say "How can you possibly not remember that stuff? You're just being disruptive!" In Wikipedia, that's the one which seems to cause the challenges in mutual understanding.

P.S. I removed those superfluous quotes :o) In Real Life™, things are a little different, because we're dealing with real-world differences. I have to say that, when it comes to Real Life™, I tend to feel sorry for neurotypicals because of what they miss out on. When I'm out in the wilderness (for want of a better word) with a neurotypical, and we pause to look at the beautiful view, the NT sees a beautiful view, or a lovely landscape. I see everything. The deer hiding still and silent under the trees, the lark's nest, the rabbit frozen into immobility under the bramble ten feet away, the adder basking but watchful, with head raised to see whether it needs to move out of our way, the otter on the riverbank watching us, the tiny wild orchid which my companion almost stepped on ... the list is endless. And NT's miss 90% of it. On an intellectual level, we A-spectrum people know all too well what NT's have that we don't, mainly because we're constantly belittled and berated for not having it. But, unless they've actually studied us, they don't have, even on an intellectual level, any appreciation of what we have that they don't ... because nobody attacks them for not having it. Pesky (talk) 05:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I've been wracking my brains to try and think of a parallel which might give some insight for NT's on A-spectrum processing. It's a bit as if all the NTs are in a stimulus-free padded cell. If you're surrounded by really interesting stuff, which you only have to look and listen and sniff and touch and taste to enjoy, why on earth would you choose instead to focus only on your companion, shutting out all that amazing stuff, and gossip about your next door neighbours? You could do that just as well in a padded cell ... Pesky (talk) 08:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

All of the traits you mention are simply human traits - not really linked to Autism. I, for example am highly observant. A friend who has Aspergers is one of the least observant people I know :) As best I understand it; Autism, and related problems, revolves around problems with "information processing". An A-Spectrum person is, to varying degrees, unable to process, filter or comprehend the information they receive. I just refreshed my memory from a book on my shelves as I recall an analogy similar to the one you make; the writer mentions two people stood in a beautiful field - the neuro-typical person has masses of sensory information available, but are able to focus on, say, enjoying the sunset or watching a single butterfly in flight. This particular A-Spectrum person is unable to focus on any one thing in the same way. It specifically points out that your analogy, which suggest the NT person is looking at the same scene through a fuzzy lense (i.e. unable to see all the detail) is an incorrect explanation of the difference. Having an eidetic memory is not particularly a feature of ASD (indeed - it is as prevalent in A-Spectrum individuals as it is in NT individuals); we simply happen to notice this in A-Spectrum individuals (for various reasons). I've regularly been in situations such as you mention; where I've wondered how on earth someone could have forgotten that last week we had a massive row about something. Or that they said XYZ - and so forth. I think what I am aiming at is that almost all of the problems you highlight are not really about having an ASD, but are simply common points of confusion amongst all of us. I think pitching it as you have risks several things; creating yet another us vs. them situation, unfairly alienating NT editors with these attributes or (worse) labelling them as "probably Autistic". --Errant ^(chat!) 09:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is a huge amount of overlap in all sorts of areas. And I always feel it's really important to remember that all of us are somewhere on the continuum – it's not like an on/off switch, at all. It's just that, after quite a while looking at interactions and where process-misunderstandings occur, the language / literal / precision thing and the data-storage thing seem to be the ones most likely to cause problems here in Wikipedia. The other Wikipedia-relevant stuff, I've covered a bit more in the essay. Yes, sure, anyone can have glitches in any area of that stuff, but those are the ones which always leap out at me when I'm looking at interactions between people whom I know are HFA or A-spectrum (or in that area of the scale, etc.) and those who I don't know are / aren't but seem most likely not to be. What I'm really trying to get to is that people (all people) should really remember that the idea is that we're supposed to be working together, despite our differences ... and that, actually, our best bet is to make the best use of the various talents which we find in all our many and varied WikiColleagues, rather than knocking anyone for what they don't have. Pesky (talk) 16:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Here are two meta-links to related information.

• http://www.dmoz.org/Health/Mental_Health/Disorders/Neurodevelopmental/Autism_Spectrum/Asperger%27s_Syndrome/
• http://www.neurodiversity.com/neurotypical.html

—Wavelength (talk) 20:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

See Inattentional blindness#External links (version of 11:38, 14 July 2012).

—Wavelength (talk) 18:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Cool links! (Sorry, I should have said something earlier about those!) Pesky (talk) 04:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

While admiring the spirit of Pesky's initiative and essay, as well as her dedicated dispute resolution work, I have to admit a reluctance to sign up to a "pact" which I don't currently feel I really understand. I ask myself what I'm letting myself in for here... There's always a balance to be struck, imo, between individual users and the project. What happens if I feel a problematic user somewhere on the spectrum really isn't going to contribute constructively and should be politely asked to leave. Would I be betraying the pact? I think I'd feel more comfortable with a userbox expressing (somehow) sensitivity to the issues, rather than an apparently binding, abstract commitment. Btw, I do recognize the potential significant contributions by unlikely people (autism apart), including some that are quite mind-boggling [1]. —MistyMorn (talk) 22:53, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Neutralhomer/Userboxes/AAAwareness:Aaah, the essay does point out that there are some people who just don't belong in here! And that being on the autism spectrum doesn't give anyone carte blanche to be a dick as well ... so if someone really doesn't belong, asking them to leave isn't a violation of the pact. The pact is just about remembering that we (all) have our differences, and focussing on some of the major differences between A-spectrum and NT editors which seem to affect WikiLife in particular, and just agreeing to remember that those differences in and of themselves don;t mean that "the other type" is stupid, etc. Of course one can be stupid, and / or a dick, and / or disruptive, no matter whether one's NT, A-spectrum, or anything else. One can alternatively be extremely valuable. Try this userbox {{User:Neutralhomer/Userboxes/AAAwareness}} if you like it. Pesky (talk) 04:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Pesky - I like the AA Awareness userbox and have happily added it to my page. —MistyMorn (talk) 10:14, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

This might be interesting to A-spectrum (and maybe NT) editors. Pesky (talk) 04:55, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikinews again

I just noticed this on Wikinews. I really think Wikinews has to reformat itself as something other than a news source if it isn't going to write about the news. I don't have a problem with Wikinews giving exclusive interviews and original reporting; however, it promotes itself as delivering the news. That is incorrect. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I thought Wikinews was a source of originally written stories on newsworthy topics. ? -- Avanu (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something terribly obvious, I don't get why that is tagged, the tag says "The validity of this article as a news story in its present form is disputed. Wikinews does not publish reports on events that are not sufficiently recent. New details must have come to light within the past 2–3 days, and the news event itself must have happened within a week." The piece was written on the day of the attack, so what exactly is the problem there? Tarc (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It was never published. That is my bigger problem. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The published a lot about WMD's in Iraq and a plane hitting the pentagon too. Why should the big channels have a monopoly on bullshit ? Penyulap ☏ 19:56, 26 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me? Ryan Vesey Review me! 20:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of when it was written, it was not published on time, and so it is no longer newsworthy. More recent items could've and can still be added to it in order for it to be publishable again. Why is this being brought up here? If you have an issue with wikinews, then address it to the wikinews community.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Hilarious. Anyone who addresses an issue to the Wikinews "community" (which consists of one active admin and one active editor) will be automatically blocked and banned. Wikinews is not a "wiki" that anyone can edit. It's a closed community run by several nuts. Viriditas (talk) 01:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hilarious trolling. Perhaps your time would be better spent at Uncyclopedia or Dramatica?--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Unlike Viriditas, I've attempted to work with some of the wikinews community. They were friendly; however, I felt that nothing could really be done. I did a little bit of work on Wikinews but stopped for two reasons. First, the procedures are too different from outs. That is no fault on either side and isn't anything to be concerned about. The second, more important reason, was that pages would pile up at the newsroom without getting published. Everything was a mess and I didn't feel like creating articles if I didn't believe they would be published. Now the reverse is true, the articles just aren't being created. Both results leave the wikinews main page in the same place, without the most important news stories. What can we do? Wikinews cannot compete with the 24 hour news cycle. You'll never be able to get that with volunteers. That's why I feel like wikinews should shift it's focus. It should completely ignore breaking news and only focus on original reporting and interviews. That's what it is good at. Then, it should present itself in a manner that says "we do original reporting and interviews". Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe this is a silly question, but if it was "never published", how is it that I can read it? Neutron (talk) 20:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It is still available to give others the opportunity to fix it up so that it can be publishable. Once it becomes clear that no one is willing to do that, then it is deleted.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think everyone knows, even good people at wikinews, that it hasn't worked. I have my own views about what should be done, but they are complex and unlikely to happen.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Is there some analysis of the problems somewhere? To me it seems that Wikinews is killing itself by having put quality control before growth (at least compared to Wikipedia, where quality became an important goal only after critical mass was reached). I have not been observing very closely, though, and might be completely wrong. —Kusma (t·c) 07:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps a decent first step would be to get rid of pending changes. Every page on Wikinews uses pending changes. Requiring the very few active members of the project to review every change that happens is part of the quality control before growth. It limits the ability for content creation and discourages new editors. I don't feel it is entirely necessary. In addition, Wikinews is lacking certain guidelines that I feel are essential to a functional site. See this quote

No, we don't have AGF. And reviewers can't take author's word for what's in the sources. It's not just a matter of faith/intentions/honesty/the like, though that comes into it too; anyone can make mistakes, and one of the reviewer's functions is catching authors' mistakes. Also, independent review is at the heart of our reputation (a key project asset) — and it wouldn't be independent if the reviewer simply took the authors' word for it (no matter who the authors) --Pi zero (talk) 06:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That said, sources like the Wall Street Journal are oftentimes excluded because Wikinews does not accept pay-per-view sources. I understand the need for a bureaucratic newsroom policy where pages get checked prior to publishing (since everything appears on the main page); however, the pages should be checked for accuracy and little else at this time. As I've stated, the alternate solution is to reformat Wikinews to solely focus on interviews. I've also looked at the german version. I feel that it is structured in a much better way than the English version and the various portals at the top make it seem like a real newssite. Perhaps Wikinews could try to follow that example. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

@ Ryan Vesey, Welcome to Wikinews. :D I look forward to your contributions on the project. We love new users and could use your assistance with our Paralympic coverage. :) --LauraHale (talk) 22:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedians to the Paralympics

As a complete random aside, if Jimbo Wales isn't aware of it, Wikimedia will have two reporters are the 2012 Summer Paralympics covering the Games for both Wikipedia and Wikinews. As Wikipedia doesn't allow original reporting, Wikinews is central to the success of getting Wikimedians greater access to major sporting events like the Paralympics, Olympics and Commonwealth Games. :) We did a test run of some technology on Wikinews this weekend to see how our reporting would work when we would push a large number of OR stories out in a short time span. Despite some hiccups, we managed to get ten stories published:

• Australia men's national wheelchair basketball team beat Japan 80-49 in final game of pool play
• Australia Rollers victorious against Great Britain men's national wheelchair basketball team
• Australian Gliders beat Germany women's national wheelchair basketball team on day two of Rollers & Gliders World Challenge
• Australian Gliders glide past China women's national wheelchair basketball team
• Australian Gliders squeak out first place victory over Germany women's national wheelchair team
• Australian Rollers roll over Great Britain men's wheelchair basketball team
• China women's national wheelchair basketball team tops Japan for third place at Rollers & Gliders World Challenge
• Wikinews interviews Australian Gliders Leanne Del Toso, Sarah Vinci, Amber Merritt, Clare Nott
• Wikinews interviews Great Britain men's national wheelchair basketball player Ade Oregembe
• Wikinews interviews Great Britain men's national wheelchair basketball player Joni Pollock

This was pretty fantastic. On top of that, we probably took 5,000 pictures and have started uploading them to:

• Australia men's national wheelchair basketball team‎
• Australia women's national wheelchair basketball team‎
• China women's national wheelchair basketball team‎
• Germany women's national wheelchair basketball team‎
• Great Britain men's national wheelchair basketball team‎
• Japan men's national wheelchair basketball team‎
• Japan women's national wheelchair basketball team‎

These pictures can be used on articles about Paralympians. It would be nice to see some of them taken to DYK, especially for the Chinese, Germans and Japanese as we do not see many people with disabilities or these countries featured on Wikipedia's front page.

In any case, to my knowledge, this is the first time Wikimedians have had press access to a sporting event on this scale and Wikinews will be key to the success to trying to gain access for more Wikimedians in the future. If we can have Jimmy's support for this, it would go a long way towards getting additional community support and assist in our efforts to get Wikimedians to the 2016 Summer Olympics. --LauraHale (talk) 22:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

That seems awesome Laura! Thanks for sharing that. I don't find it too random either, it shows where Wikinews can continue to focus. Wikinews does seem good at that. My main argument is that the sight should be reformatted to outwardly reflect its focus. Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

It is incredibly awesome. And your argument appears to be this: You, Ryan Vesey, will come over to Wikinews, become involved in our systems and assist in realising what you desire. :) Because Jimmy can't directly involve himself in project politics like you're suggesting: The community tends to have tremendous pushback when outsides come in and try to artificially impose policy on other projects. :) But you, Ryan Vesey, you can come in, become a regular contributor, understand how things work, get a few articles published, and then help realise those changes and make Wikinews more awesome and present more opportunities for yourself and other Wikimedians with your news coverage! :) --LauraHale (talk) 23:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hey Jimmy, we're having a Wikinews workshop ahead of the Paralympics and would love it if you were in London and could attend. :) --LauraHale (talk) 23:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Harassment of mentally sick Wikipedians

Tarc's behavior is disappointing. This kind of ugliness has no place in Wikipedia, and is inconsistent with our deepest values and mission.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Dear Jimbo please sorry my English. I live in Thayland. My son edit Wikipedia. Yesterday he come to me and he cries. My son has autism. He tell me that your user Tarc call autistic people "retarded". Dear Jimbo please see http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=38676 Tarc write "The Wikipedia's special protection for assipies, retards, and spazzes, powercorrupts can go fuck herself :)" Dear Jimbo my son tell me that many arbitrator see that site. In another site Tarc call it "Wikipedia users' general spazziness is now a protected class". Why Tarc is still allows to Wikipedia? He is harass all Wikipedians with mental problems and wikipedia too. I wish Itrust you dear Jimbo do not see yourself the sites but now I tell you about Tarc. Please help protect my son and others who have autism and another mental problems.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.87.209.88 (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Your son should probably stay away from Wikipedia Review. (Not that I believe for a second that this post is legitimate.) Looie496 (talk) 01:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC) It could be legitimate; some folks think that because it has "Wikipedia" in the name, it's part of us. (Like the guy in Florida who's posting YouTube videos accusing us of being Wikileaks and stifling his efforts to spam himself into our articles.) --Orange Mike | Talk 01:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC) That is a really bad imitation of bad English. Peacock (talk) 01:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC) You can't really have a good imitation of bad English, though. That would just be bad English. So can you have a bad imitation? Formerip (talk) 01:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Perhaps, however the IP addy is indeed from Thailand. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Just a charming member of my fan club up to a little joe job, nothing more. Well-played, Mauer. Tarc (talk) 02:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Do you think it's possible to imitate being a moron on an Internet forum, Tarc, or is it something that just has to shine through naturally? Formerip (talk) 02:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC) To be clear, you're saying that the post on WR did not come from you, right? Looie496 (talk) 05:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC) If it did come from Tarc, I can see a good case for giving him the boot for bringing Wikipedia into disrepute - and if there is no policy that says that this can be done, we could WP:IAR, pretend there is, and go ahead anyway. Totally obnoxious... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC) It's completely within policy to ban a user for harassment on an external site: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ#Michaeldsuarez_banned. — raekyt 06:13, 27 July 2012 (UTC) It is not of mine English. Are not you horror of Wikipedia user Tarc harrassment of metally sick? How that user is allow to Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.168.251.133 (talk) 05:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

New Fcite templates allow more parameters

During the Fcite TfD discussions, several users requested more options to be allowed in the 5x-faster Fcite templates ({{Fcite_web}}, {{Fcite_book}}, {{Fcite_journal}}, etc.). To help gain consensus, I added most of the standard parameters to those templates. However, there was a growing trend that "all" parameters should be allowed, so that the prior templates could be deprecated and replaced, which is not the intended goal. Instead, the Fcite templates are intended to be used where performance specifically has been an issue, rather than as a rival template system which must be proven to handle all current 1.6 million articles which use the older Template:Citation/core.

Performance improvements: The Fcite templates improve the following noted issues in prior performance problems with the {Cite_*} template family:

• The edit-preview speed is 3x faster, as the 5x-faster Fcite templates improve overall speed.
• The display speed is 3x faster for users with Special:Preferences, such as thumbnail higher/lower than 220px.
• More large templates are allowed, as over 3,500 Fcite templates could be used, without exceeding the NewPP preprocessor "post-expand include size".
• Slow, busy servers still display articles, without the 60-second timeout as wp:Wikimedia Foundation error.

Although the initial performance concern was about the reformat or edit-preview speed, by worrying about performance, then other performance improvements were noted. Especially critical is avoiding the 60-second timeout during edit-preview, which often loses the entire edit, due to most users not saving the edit-buffer before edit-preview. A long, detailed edit (to a whole major article) could be lost, at times when some busy servers run 2x slower, upon "Wikimedia Foundation error" which fails to recover the edit-buffer, and the browser-back button would return to the original edit-buffer, losing all changes made before edit-preview.

Although the discussions about the Fcite templates have been tenuous at times, several editors have helped, greatly, by naming specific examples where improvements were later implemented. Hence, even though some people might have been feeling apprehensive, or nervous, about the Fcite templates, the general collaboration has produced a set of highly functional templates which currently still run 5x-6x faster, with the potential to use a streamlined Fcite as 15x faster, processing 250 typical cites per second (rather than 17). Again, I thank everyone who replied here, at the wp:TfD, and at wp:PUMPTECH to help make all this possible, beyond just a set of simplistic hollow templates, into fully functional templates which support professional citation styles at extremely fast speeds. Since performance is the main issue, it made sense for the Fcite templates to quickly allow more options to provide the highest-quality output, for even complex citations in featured articles. If performance had been a higher priority 3 years ago, perhaps the results would have come sooner, but at least, now, we can see how performance can be extensively improved, once it is considered important. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:05/19:14, 27 July, revised 09:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

There is no "growing trend" that "the prior templates be deprecated and replaced." You made that up. The appropriate course of action is to offer the techniques used as possible enhancements to the standard templates. Introducing yet another suite of templates is disruptive in that it adds to the chaos already extant in articles; the appropriate approach is to reduce the trivial variations of cite templates, not expand them. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 10:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Porn

This

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Masturbation_Techniques_-_tolling_of_the_bells_%28animated%29.gif

has just been featured on the Popbitch messageboard. A commentor among that pretty unshockable community has said "now I know it's the all-encompassing encyclopaedia but bloody hell. Is that necessary?" I couldn't agree more. Is this an encyclopedia or a porn site? 86.134.119.16 (talk) 10:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This really should be speedy deleted. Vincent Liu (something to say?) 10:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Whether this file and alike should be deleted or not, should be discussed in Wikimedia Commons, not in Wikipedia. Because honestly Jimbo has no power to remove them from the public eyes until a policy to delete any non-historic and unused file is passed in Commons. Before that we're totally powerless to deal with these files due to the opposition from our community. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 11:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be a lot of deletion requests on flowers..., beside the fact that some of the images might be used in future articles would be missing if such a policy passed. I'm not really favoring this image (animations should be video files, for bandwidth and resolution sake), but i also don't know why it shouldn't exist. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 11:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

With 1 more amendment: can be easily produced again or done better. The tolling bells is one of the shining examples of such kind of unused file. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This has previously been nominated for deletion and kept by the unanimous vote of some of the most respected contributors of Commons. The uploader of that particular image has contributed many valuable images to Commons. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I wish I hadn't clicked on that ...! It looks like one man with an inordinate (and rather undeserved IMHO) amount of pride in his genitalia is using Commons as his private porn stash for gifs and photos of his beloved meat and two veg. Since when did Commons become a repository of 'how to masturbate' gifs? How is that encyclopedic? 86.134.119.16 (talk) 17:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Funny how the same names keep coming up over there when we discuss how problematic Commons is. We have the globally banned sex crimes felon (Beta M), the Beta M cheerleading squad (mattbuck, stefan4), Cirt (of anti-Scientology and anti-Santorum fame), and...Fae (the proverbial "no introduction needed"). Has serious thought been given to the proposal floated a few times to simply disperse whatever material is salvageable to the local wikis to host and simply dissolving Commons itself? Tarc (talk) 13:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Tarc on this one. Most of the controversial sexual images on Commons are not being used in any Wikipedia articles, so they drag down the reputation of Wikipedia without providing any serious benefit to the encyclopedia project. Images like the tolling bells animation would be acceptable if there were an 18+ category image filter, but this proposal has been blocked by the lack of consensus.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

How are discussions at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Personal_Image_Filter going? JN466 17:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The last time I looked, a couple of days ago, it was full of editors who either oppose any notion of a filter for Wikipedia or who have missed the point that Jimbo's proposal is for a simple filter based on a blacklist of Commons categories. So it appears to be being filibustered by unfocussed waffle, and in the case of some contributors I suspect that's an intentional derailing. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, unfocused waffle only. Like a working image filter someone happened to mention there. Which is absolutely a distraction, because the whole point of our new Wikipediocracy government is to tell us what images we're allowed to see and which not, which sources we can use and what we can't, which editors will be blackballed in a McCarthyistic campaign and which won't. We should just destroy Commons, ban all the good contributors, why not? The sooner that everyone on Earth has a visceral understanding that the sole purpose of Wikipedia is censorship, to conceal amid a seemingly comprehensive raft of user-contributed "facts" the minor defect that major swathes of information have been taken out according to somebody's political agenda, or somebody's bogus "ethics" about why we can't tell the truth about practically any topic, the sooner it is looked on with universal contempt as an example of the invariable progression of communism to totalitarianism, the sooner those who seriously love knowing the full truth about everything can try to build something new. Probably, completely from scratch, though I would have hoped for better. Wnt (talk) 04:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I think I detected a note of sarcasm in that post... Robofish (talk) 12:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds not like sarcasm to me. It has much more truth in it as exaggeration. The development from a more or less communism alike system to a totalistic, centralized, commercial driven system is more then obvious. At least if i write down the recent top down attempted and imposed changes, draw a line below them and write down a conclusion, then it is hard to construct a very different interpretation. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 12:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The minute you use "communist" or "totalistic" to describe a proposal that is contrary to your ideology, you just sound like a Wikipolitician than a contributor to me. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It's just the usual amount of exaggeration and worst case picking, as i read it every time at this discussion page. ;-) --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 13:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Johnny Vaughan

Daughter moved to tears by wikipedia article which exposes the truth..♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

It has never been any great secret that Johnny Vaughan spent time in prison over a drug offence. This has been in numerous reliable sources, and Wikipedia is only repeating what the sources say, such as Vaughan's interview in the Daily Telegraph.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh I know, wikipedia is right to cover it, but hard for somebody to learn about their dad nonetheless. It must make it incredibly hard to discipline a child though.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This is not like a rerun of the Daniela Georgieva deletion debate. Wikipedia articles have to mention significant controversies. The Daily Mail seems to be placing the blame on Wikipedia for this, but it has been in many showbiz bios of Vaughan. The problem is that a Wikipedia BLP article is usually the first search result for a living person's name.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:05, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

No, the problem is that the majority of the section "Life and career" is devoted to discussing his arrest for allegedly trying to sell drugs. That's not acceptable. Further, a single drug arrest (based on what sounds like entrapment) is not a "significant controversy" but rather a sensationalized account of an arrest when he was 21. It's clearly undue weight. Viriditas (talk) 00:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I like lisa's approach to journalism, take all of society's ills, all family problems today, the drug addicted capitalist government, a guy who is struggling to make up for mistakes, roll everything into a twit sized headline and shove it up wiki's butt. Yes, great aim, I've long thought Jimbo was behind that whole Fukushima thing, I should write to this lisa and see what we can do to expose him. Penyulap ☏ 08:42, 28 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Vaughan was found guilty and sentenced to four years in prison, serving two; there is no WP:ALLEGED. Mentioning past criminal convictions is a sensitive area for BLPs, but since Vaughan discussed the incident in a 2008 newspaper interview and it is common knowledge anyway, there is no obvious bar to mentioning it. The Mail has packaged the story as though all of this was Wikipedia's fault, which is disappointing.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you not understand the concept of undue weight? Here is an example of BBC News giving the issue due and proper weight. Viriditas (talk) 11:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Compare also the way we deal with Stephen Fry's crime and prison time. Though, no matter how thoughtfully we dealt with Vaughan's history, it would still have been a difficult way for the child to find out about it. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Adventure: Request for feedback on Community Fellowship proposal

Hi! I'm contacting you because you have participated or discussed The Wikipedia Adventure learning tutorial/game idea. I think you should know about a current Community Fellowship proposal to create the game with some Wikimedia Foundation support. Your feedback on the proposal would be very much appreciated. I should note that the feedback is for the proposal, not the proposer, and even if the Fellowship goes forward it might be undertaken by presently not-mentioned editors. Thanks again for your consideration.

Proposal: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fellowships/Project_Ideas/The_Wikipedia_Adventure

Cheers, User:Ocaasi 16:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

An appeal for genuine neutrality at James Eagan Holmes and 2012 Aurora shooting

Pardon me for posting here, as I've never done so before. I wanted to give some visibility to a new section I've posted at Talk:James_Eagan_Holmes#An_appeal_for_genuine_neutrality. Respectfully, and with my thanks. JoeSperrazza (talk) 16:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Two Community Fellowship proposals you might be interested in

Hi! there are currently two Community Fellowship proposal for projects that would be geared towards engaging both new and active editors.

• The first is The Wikipedia Adventure, a friendly, instructive learning tutorial for new editors.

  proposal: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fellowships/Project_Ideas/The_Wikipedia_Adventure

• The second is The Wikipedia Library, a single point of access for approved Wikipedia editors to gain free entry to all participating resource providers such as WP:HighBeam, WP:Credo, or WP:JSTOR.

  proposal: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fellowships/Project_Ideas/The_Wikipedia_Library

Feedback on either proposal would be very much appreciated. I should note that the feedback is for the proposal, not the proposer, and even if the Fellowships go forward it might be undertaken by presently not-mentioned editors. Cheers! Ocaasi ^{t | c} 16:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

help with red tape

I am a doctor. I do not want to get involved in red tape or a long bureaucratic process so please do not ask me to do this and that.

A few years ago, I posted a few comments, mostly about medical stuff. Then I made the mistake about commenting about a politician's health by giving a medical opinion. Some administrator falsely declared I was not a doctor and banned me by calling me the Wikipedia equivalent of being a communist (sock).

This makes Wikipedia look childish and unjust. A possible solution would be for you to create a user acct for me and put a note that I should not be banned unless I post something not permitted. If the new acct is banned using an excuse and not reviewed by you, that person doing so will be banned.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.18.145.160 (talk) 17:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Nobody else can create an account for you, but nothing prevents you from creating one. If you do, nobody will connect it with things that happened years ago unless you misbehave with the new account. It isn't reasonable for you to ask for privileges such as immunity from blocking that are not granted to even the most solidly established editors. Looie496 (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Create a new account on the same basis as anyone else. Expect to be treated the same way as anyone else, and we will treat you the same way as anyone else. We won't know you from anyone else. Is there anything fairer than that? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

In essence, you are telling me to break the rules and sneak under the ban. This is unethical. If two administrators give me the ok and agree to help me if I am picked on or if Mr. Wales gives me the ok then I will do what Andy instructs me to do. Mr. Wales, would you kindly respond. Thank you.

Wikiquote and the dead projects

Dear Jimmy Wales,

First of all, thank you. Thank you for having created Wikiquote who is a pleasant project. Then, I have to speak to you about what arrives regrettably on fr.wikiquote and on all the small dead projects, formerly active. Since the lock of fr.wikiquote, the project had in its new debuts a deep activity. Regrettably, in two hardly, its liveliness ran out. And now, it is the scyte, to be euphémiste. Nothing takes place there, pages are archaic, the contributions are rare, the left contributors, and the useless survivors. This is the way I thus kindly request you to make the charity for the project. If only a support of one some shape, and Wikiquotiens will be happy.

I thank you for the attention which you would grant to my request, it would be the proof of your benevolence to fr.wikiquote and all the small dead projects.

Please accept, Sir, my best regards in your to and big work.

Votre aimable et respectueux contributeur,

Morphypnos (answer) 20:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

It might be me (I'm a little slow sometimes) but could you clarify a little what you are asking for? I'm not quite sure from the message what you want Jimbo to do and I'm not sure he would either. Not speaking for him of course just suggesting. Kumioko (talk) 20:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I know this query is about fr.wikiquote, but I would just like to say that I've been very impressed with the professionalism of the editors and admins over at en.wikiquote. Maybe they would be able to help this user out? Viriditas (talk) 00:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

This was Google-translated; I put it back in French and it made a lot more sense. I re-translated into English (quick and dirty, sorry it's so stiff), and I hope this makes more sense: (Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 07:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC))

Dear Jimmy Wales,

First of all, I thank you. Thank you for creating Wikiquote, which is a nice project. However, I need to speak to you about what's unfortunately happened at fr.wikiquote and on all the formerly-active projects. Since fr.wikiquote was locked, the project saw in its new start profound activity. Unfortunately, in hardly any time, its liveliness drained away. Now, it's wikt:scyte [tr. note: slang for "shit"], to be euphemistic. Nothing happens there, the pages are all out of date, contributions are rare, contributors have left, and the ones left are useless. This is how I kindly request that you help the project. It only needs a certain kind of support to make the Wikiquotiens [tr. note: French Wikiquote editors] happy.

I thank you for paying attention to my request; it would prove your benevolence towards fr.wikiquote and all the other little dead projects.

Please accept, sir, my best regards for your work both small and large.

Your kind and respectful contributor,

Morphypnos

That's pretty much what I understood of the first version. Still — what does "help" mean, or "support"? What could we do? (esp. people who don't speak French...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:03, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Local Ombudsman Committee?

I'm thinking out loud right now, but we currently have the following committees that are consistent with any large organization:

• A mediation committee that facilitates conflict resolution among disagreeing parties.
• An arbitration committee that makes binding and enforceable resolutions to help resolve disputes.

The WMF has its own ombudsman commission to investigate issues and complaint regarding CheckUser and Oversight. But I was wondering: perhaps we (the English Wikipedia) could have our own local Ombudsman Committee that would similarly investigate issues and complaints regarding CheckUser and Oversight (just as the Audit Subcommittee already does), but it would also have the power to investigate issues and complaints regarding individual editors as well as administrators and their actions.

• Pros:
  • This would allow for the community a specific venue to handle complaints about misconduct, including admin misconduct, which a lot of people are looking at.
  • This would also leave the Arbitration Committee to specifically handle more specific content disputes, sanctions, etc.
• Cons:
  • Do we really need another committee? It may more resemble bureaucratic creep.
  • We may be introducing unnecessary redundancy with what the Arbitration Committee currently does.

Anyways, I'm just thinking this out loud. Any thoughts? --MuZemike 00:47, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a similar discussion taking place here, perhaps you would like to weigh-in there with your thoughts MuZemike. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I've expressed my partial support for the relevant proposal, but it's partial because my proposal is more far-reaching than what the existing proposal is. --MuZemike 07:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Gabe linked what I was going to link to as well. Several of us have been talking about this for some time in different venues, and we have adopted the concern at WP:WER. I have no idea what the final answer should be, and I share your concerns about creep, but there is a real need for something to fill the void as we rapidly expand in every direction. I think it is exceedingly important that admins and non-admins equally share in developing this, to help build stronger bonds between us all here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:03, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

COI+ certification proposal

I've thought of an idea that might break our current logjam with paid editing. I'd love your sincere feedback and opinion.

• WP:COI certification

Feel free to circulate this to anyone you think should know about it, but please recognize that it hasn't agreed upon by either PR organizations or WikiProjects or the wider community. It's also just a draft, so any/many changes can still be made. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi EdwardsBot (talk) 15:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

RfC regarding "verifiability, not truth" has just ended

FYI, a large RfC regarding "verifiability, not truth" has just ended and is awaiting closers' comments. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:29, 28 July 2012 (UTC)