Talk:Penn Jillette

Written Works

I'm new at this, so I thought I would check - Is there a reason that the three Penn and Teller co-written books are not listed under written works? Penn & Teller's How to Play in Traffic Cruel Tricks for Dear Friends Penn and Teller's How to Play with Your Food —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Princemuchao (talk • contribs) 22:35, September 18, 2006 (UTC)

They're on the Penn & Teller page. - Justin 00:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Prosopagnosia

Talked about his prosopagnosia 30 AUG 2006 on his radio show. I didn't add it to the article, since I don't know where to put it. The podcast is, or will be, on iTunes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.183.116.193 (talk • contribs) 19:13, August 30, 2006 (UTC)

[even though he has said he's not good at recognizing people's faces i don't think this qualifies as prosopagnosia, which is a much severe impairment in face recognition beyond the "im not good with faces"] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.141.66.169 (talk • contribs) 18:47, November 5, 2006 (UTC)

-I changed the claim that Penn has prosopagnosia in this entry to this:

It was widely believed and reported on the Internet that he suffers from prosopagnosia (a rare impairment of the ability to recognize faces), although in truth, he does not. He has, however, in an interview with TV Guide, stated that he has "a tremendously bad visual memory", and when asked about the prosopagnosia rumor, he replied "I don't have that. I think I have what they call 'stupid'."

in light of the December 18, 2006 interview with TV Guide and the recent things he's said on his radio show. --71.226.215.220 01:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

He said he didn't recognize his mom, and that he had been 'tested' in some way. Perhaps we should call him on the air. 76.209.152.77 02:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

As I read that TV Guide article, he is misunderstanding what prosopagnosia is like. It does NOT involve a "masking" of faces. We see faces normally, we just can't store them and/or retrieve them from our memories as effectively. This could have something to do with the common TV story and magazine article illustration of PA with a blurred or mosaiced face. That's not what it's actually like to see someone, although it's vaguely similar to what it's like to try to remember someone's face who isn't there. If you don't recognize your mom out of context, that's a giant flashing red sign that says "prosopagnosia". I used to claim I had a bad visual memory or think I just wasn't paying enough attention too, til I found out about PA. Andreac 18:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

polyamorous

why doesn't this mention his polyamorous lifestyle? he has alluded to this on adam carolla's radio show, and it's public information otherwise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.32.10 (talk • contribs) 01:06, July 30, 2006 (UTC)

---

why doesnt it say anything about him being in the band pigface? —This unsigned comment was added by 67.181.108.218 (talk • contribs) .

For that matter as well, before Pigface, he started a band known as Captain Howdy (named after the devil in The Exorcist); surely his musical dalliances deserve some mention...Gene S. Poole 03:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this is worth adding or not, but a few times on Bullshit, Penn has referenced the fact that he has never had a drink in his life. Does anyone know 1) if he was kidding or 2) if there is a reason behind this? —This unsigned comment was added by 209.33.51.78 (talk • contribs) .

He's not kidding. Penn doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't take drugs. He has said something to the effect that he has no desire to alter his perception of reality. I really should dig up a quote but I'm lazy. Encouragingly, he holds these views while still defending the right of anyone to do the exact opposite. He doesn't agree with laws that limit our personal freedoms. —This unsigned comment was added by 67.67.196.248 (talk • contribs) .

I believe it's something about how "I'm only going to be alive for a certain amount of time, and I'd like to be here for it." DS 00:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

CrimeFighter

Why was it all over the Internet that the reason he gave his daughter that middle name was so that she could say that her middle name is "crimefighter" if she was ever stopped by the police? In this way, the police would have sympathy for her and not give her a summons.Lestrade 02:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

It's a story that Penn himself has told, tongue-in-cheek, of course. I heard it from him at The Amaz!ng Meeting 4 in Las Vegas, and I think he's also told it on his radio show. DHowell 05:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

He also mentions this, jokingly on the NPR show "Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me"; in fact, the article says that he mentions something about it being his wife's idea to have fun with her middle name but I do not remember that at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.32.40.169 (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Penn and Teller Suck

I think we need a section in here on the fact that both of these guys really bite. They aren't funny and that's the big problem with their act. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.3.8.253 (talk • contribs) 19:48, August 14, 2006 (UTC)

Links and references to criticism of their act would belong in their performance entry. Drjon 04:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he has any references, Dr. --Princemuchao 13:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Taste is subjective. You cannot add a section saying they suck without also adding every other opinion people express about the two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.72.173 (talk) 06:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Cato

While he's in the category of people associated with the Cato Institute, it's not mentioned in his bio - He's a Fellow there, it's a libertarian thinktank. Presumably there's more to his libertarian activism to be covered. Rainman420 19:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Mother Theresa

Ok, let's try to be civil if we could. Also, where are we going with this? May I ask what the point of this exchange will be with respect to improving the article? Thanks, Deville (Talk) 23:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be no point. Magidin 01:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Partnership with Teller

Lots have people have said "why doesn't this article mention...", but why doesn't it actually say something about his partnership with Teller? It mentions he exists, but no dates, no how,no where, pretty much nothing. Eh? DJ Clayworth 15:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Because his partnership with Teller has a Wikipage all of its own, Penn and Teller. The information you inquire about is there. Magidin 15:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Jewish Upbringing?

I've looked around on Google for evidence that Penn Jillette was raised Jewish, although is now an atheist. I heard a guest on his radio show claim that he was raised Jewish, although there's no real verification or mention of this. The misperception that he is Jewish however, probably comes from all his Jewish friends in Hollywood, and that Teller was raised Jewish.

What is Penn's ethnic background? Can anyone verify?--Seth Goldin 23:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I know his family is from Newfoundland, and he has alluded to his ethnic background as "Newfie". Unigolyn 08:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

His famlies from Newfoundland? Never heard of that. All I know is he grew up in the Greenfield area of Mass. If you attend the Fanklin County Fair, held annually in Greenfield, you see a model his father made from like toothpicks. And my father's mentioned going to elementary school with Penn, and that was in Gill, Mass. Which itself is in the Greenfield area. -annonymous 11/17/06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.222.146.215 (talk • contribs) 23:38, November 17, 2006 (UTC)

On his radio show, he mentions his ancestors being from Newfoundland, and being of mixed heritage. (on one episode of his radio show, he related a story of his mother warning him "I never want to hear you making fun of any nationality, because no matter which one it is, its in your background somewhere.") On the episode of his radio show which he talks to Judy Gold [[1]], he discusses there being only one Jewish family in his hometown of Greenfield, so I wouldn't believe that he was raised Jewish. On the shows where Gilbert Gottfried is the guest [[2]] [[3]] , he describes himself as a Gentile. I haven't heard the radio show where a guest described his upbringing as Jewish, but these are some events on the radio show that seem to contradict it. Andrew.langmead 04:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I posted that before he explicitly said that he was a gentile. A guest had mistakenly thought that he was Jewish. He is absolutely not. Of course he's an atheist, but I'm talking about ethnicity, like Teller.--Seth Goldin 05:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

On the radio show with Kinky Friedman, Kinky asks Penn isn't he Presbyterian, and Penn says yes, without comment. If he was being sarcastic he probably would have expanded on that. 216.107.222.222 22:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Objectivism

I've added that Penn is an objectivist to the article and provided a link to his myspace blog where he states as such. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.143.61.120 (talk • contribs) 22:12, November 30, 2006 (UTC)

Fingernail

The article says "Note that in India a painted red fingernail on one hand (typically in children) indicates that one's vaccinations are up to date." I've never heard this. Does anyone have a reference to back this up?128.2.222.72 04:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Everyone knows that one red fingernail is a sign of satanism, as is the horn salute Penn often does at the end of an illusion. He's a closet satanist. No joke. --207.47.252.131 (talk) 20:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Who is "everyone"? And how is this true? Source this, maybe? You can't, can you? AndarielHalo (talk) 17:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Sammy Davis Junior, who was also a Satanist for a time used to paint one fingernail red to symbolise his allegiance to Satan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.217.237 (talk) 09:43, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Accusations of anti-Catholicism

This needs rewording. Calling Penn Anti-Catholic is like calling Richard Dawkins Anti-Catholic. Penn is, as he says, "beyond atheism." He is personally opposed to religion - all of it, not just Catholicism. If we're going to put a note specifically about the Anti-Mother-Teresa thing I think the heading should be referring to that specifically. Being against the sick beliefs of an individual is different than being against a religion.

Also, why was that thing about John London removed? He was the guy fired for making a death threat to Penn over this subject. [4] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.13.30.201 (talk • contribs) 03:35, March 9, 2007 (UTC)

Counting...

From the article (ephasis mine):

Speculation arises from Penn's red fingernail on his left hand. From a FAQ from Penn & Teller's official website, there are three common answers:

1. It means he once shot a man for asking personal questions.
2. When Penn first began performing, his mother told him to get a manicure because people would be looking at his hands. In response to this, Penn had all of his nails painted red as a joke. The one remaining red fingernail is in honor of his dear mother and also can sometimes provide excelent misdirection.

On the episode of Penn Radio which aired 29 November, 2006, Penn related the real story behind his red fingernail. It began as a joke with his mother. When Penn was 18 years old, his mother advised him to keep his hands looking nice, since he was then working as a magician and his audience would be looking at his hands. Penn colored the single nail red and showed it to his mother. He has continued to paint that single nail to the present. The color he uses is Jelly Apple Red (#054) by Essie.

I count two. The paragraph below the list is essentially the same as item #2 on the list, only with more explanation. Was there a 3rd before that got removed for some reason? Lurlock 14:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Counting

Lurlock, I saw the same problem, and did a quick web search (noted in my edit comments). Changed it to 3, with #3 being misdirection. Got this from search.com. I couldn't find anything about the fingernail at Penn & Teller's official website. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.62.3.160 (talk • contribs) 16:51, March 19, 2007 (UTC)

Jillette, not Penn

A reminder to editors: to help maintain the proper encyclopedic tone in this article, please refer to its subject by his last name, Jillette, not his first name (unless the reference is specifically contrasting him with the other member of "Penn & Teller"). - dcljr (talk) 18:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Intellectual property section

This new section is attempting to make the argument that Jillette is a firm believer in intellectual property rights, but it was done by citing a blog (apparently from Jillette) that makes no direct supporting statement (in a discussion about a plane trip):

I read and I typed. After doing that for a while, I put on my MP3s (only moral ones) stuck my earphones in and went to that weird half-sleep place where I listen to music.

• Jillette, Penn (14 June 2000). ""Plane Crash Penn"". Penniphile. PennAndTeller.com. Retrieved 2007-09-29. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

There is no context in this blog that indicates whether "moral" means "legally owned", "politically correct", "supporting my personal values", or any other of the many connotations of "moral". It doesn't matter if, knowing Jillette, we might deduce a particular meaning. We Wikipedians are not allowed to deduce or extrapolate meanings — we must cite clearly supporting statements for our prose.

Because of this continuing problem, I have removed the following text from the section:

… and speaks of having "moral" versions of media

I also note that, contrary to the most recent edit summary on this issue, he says "MP3" in this not-quite-supporting text, not "media". Please, folks, let's get our supporting evidence right before we write our prose. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I've found this cite; http://www.pennandteller.com/sincity/penn-n-teller/pcc/stealing.html It clearly lays out Penn's beliefs about IP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.234.59 (talk) 22:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

He stated on his radio show that people who downloaded his show who also subscribed to ShowTime already paid for it, but non-subscribers would not have. Anybody have an air-date? BillMcGonigle 20:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Citing sources

I've fixed several references in this article because they employed bare external links either with no supplemental information or only a prose description that didn't exactly reflect the actual source. There are two major reasons to use full citations, including authors, dates, works, access dates, etc.:

1. Bare links frequently cease to work. When this happens, editors will try to find other sources for the same information. This is much easier to do if specific information, like exact article titles and dates, are provided, instead of often-cryptic URLs and mere user descriptions of the content.
2. Providing these citation details in the References (or equivalent) section not only follows standard publishing practice, but has an extra import for Wikipedia. We do not have an editorial board to oversee our article content. We are the editorial board. Readers should be able to see at a glance the source of the information in the article, to enable them to weigh its merit for themselves. Hiding such information behind bare links reduces this opportunity and makes bias easier to incorporate in articles.

As a result of my fixes, it can be seen that two sources are YouTube videos of unclear provenance that are likely copyright violations, making the links from Wikipedia likely contributory infringement of the originals' copyrights. I will therefore remove those links and replace them with fact tags after the fix-up edit.

For more information on these practices and issues, please see Wikipedia:Footnotes, Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Citation templates, and Wikipedia:Copyrights. I welcome any questions on my talk page, too. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

removed "controversy" section

I'm removed this section; first Donohue (aka the Catholic League) seems to accuse everyone who's high profile of anti-Catholicism. If there is evidence of numerous mainstream media covering the story then reference it. If the death threat was seen as credible and covered by WP:RS then maybe but not with undue weight. Benjiboi 23:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

William A. Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, has accused Jillette of engaging in anti-Catholic bigotry after remarks Jillette made on his radio show after rumors began to spread that Paris Hilton was asked to star in a biopic about Mother Teresa's life. Jillette remarked on the April 5, 2006 episode of his show that Hilton shouldn't "lower herself" to play the nun, whom he believed had a "sexual kink" involving watching people suffer and die. He also said that Hilton should continue to make "good, wholesome, porno films", a reference to 1 Night in Paris.

After his remarks -- which echoed beliefs expressed in the "Holier Than Thou" episode of Bullshit! -- John London, another FreeFM host whose show followed Jillette's in many markets, offered listeners US$5,000 to "the person that kills Jillette", later upping it to 7,000 if he "suffers". Because of this threat, London, his co-host Chris Townsend, and his producer Dennis Cruz were fired from FreeFM.

Just because it was William Donohue who led the charge dose not make it wrong. I think that the evidince of his won convictions suggests that however he isn't a anti catholic, but a anti theist and that should be put into controversy for bigotry against theists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.95.208 (talk) 23:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Sock Book

He wrote a book called Sock, I saw it being sold at his show a few months back and my friend recently bought it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.92.125.12 (talk) 10:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Cato?

Does anyone have a source saying Penn is part of the CATO institute?Father Time89 (talk) 18:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Run DMC

Both Penn and Teller have appeared in Run DMC's video for "It's Tricky." I know we can't mention every appearance he's made but this one is pretty prominent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.219.133.241 (talk) 01:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Comedy Central voiceover work

And it is also worth mentioning that for years he was Comedy Central's only voiceover guy with both P&T appearing in many of the oddball segments that advertised the network... for instance, there was one where Penn opens up a trenchcoat to reveal Teller who also opens a trenchcoat to reveal the Comedy Central logo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.219.133.241 (talk) 01:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Excite.com

I changed the sentence that contained "now defunct search engine Excite.com" because there certainly is a search engine at Excite.com. All one has to do is go to that address.

24.124.100.166 (talk) 20:37, 16 September 2008 (UTC)Evan

Uh... not 6'9"

Penn is certainly enormous but he's not 6'9", he's about 6'6.5" or 6'7" but not 6'9". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.135.115 (talk) 21:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Theres no evidence for the 6'7 claim neither, i would peg him to 6'4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.145.38.52 (talk) 21:59, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Brad_Garrett#Height. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:14, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

STOP DELETING MY POSTS! this is a DISCUSSION PAGE to improve the article, so LEAVE if you cant handle my opinions! if i had a little respect for your behavior before i for sure have NONE now, dictator wannabes like you should neither be tolerated or accepted

Identity Season 2?

a second season of Identity? Where was that from? 199.80.112.226 (talk) 18:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Net worth?

Can someone add a blurb on his net worth? I got in a discussion about whether major Vegas entertainers were worth 8 or 9 digits, and was surprised to find it's not covered here. Might as well add it for Teller's page as well, which incidentally, is 1/3 stub, and 2/3 trivial nonsense. - 209.6.146.164 (talk) 21:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Penn Says Finished?

Has the Penn Says blog finished? It doesn't appear to be on crackle anymore. If that's the case the page should be updated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.5.1 (talk) 04:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Where the heck did you get that idea? He posted a new video this morning: Not SkitSnack!. Not only is it going strong, but its availabe on both the Crackle site and on YouTube: On Crackle On YouTube and there's even an announce feed on Twitter: PennSays --Krelnik (talk) 12:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Worth Noting?

I don't usually deal too much with this kind of stuff, so I wasn't sure. Is it worth noting that he authored the forward to Greg Gutfeld's upcoming book The Bible of Unspeakable Truths?[5] SpudHawg948 (talk) 09:23, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Involvement with The Residents

Should this article refer to Penn Jillette's involvement with The Residents, most notably his appearance as narrator for the live Mole Show? Since The Residents are artists of some significnce in their own sphere, it would seem worth mentioning Booleanmattock (talk) 00:17, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Red fingernail

Holy shit, how many times does the story need to be told in the same section? I lost interest in reading the article when I ran across the mother story three times in that section.

Please, take a stab at editing it to make it a better read. Kingturtle (talk) 15:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Gambling

I'm not sure what the source is of the 'never gambled' factoid, but I have personally witnessed Penn playing blackjack in a Las Vegas casino, furthermore he has publicly taken part in televised blackjack tournaments.

"All is presentation" - Derren Brown Recidivist23 (talk) 13:19, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

drug of choice

He has never used recreational drugs or alcohol. ...

He says that (repeatedly), but:

I fiddled with a cigarette on the bar and their ... servant ("servant" really doesn't bring up the full image) brought me a brand-new pack, opened, with a cigarette sticking out ready for me. He would have lit it for me too.

— "Siegfried, Roy, Montecore, Penn, and Leather Pants" in God, No! page 6

Now maybe he's in the habit of fiddling with unlit cigarettes, like Tony Baretta, but if I ever get the chance I'm gonna ask him whether the blanket statement ought to be qualified by "other than nicotine". —Tamfang (talk) 05:35, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Lots of magic tricks use cigarettes as props. (Fiddling with one is not smoking one.) If he did/does smoke his statement would be problematic if he were in the social sciences, where "ATOD" (for "alcohol, tobacco and other drugs") is used to emphasize that alcohol and tobacco are drugs. However, he is not in the social sciences and the term ATOD exists because most people do not generally include tobacco with "drugs" and he clearly distinguishes alcohol from "recreational drugs". Heck, if we want to get right down to it, Viagra is a recreational drug unless the man's partner is a postmenopausal woman. Does this mean Bob Dole's Viagra ads mean he supports recreational drug use?

Long story short, unless a reliable source clearly discusses whether or not he smoked/smokes, we have nothing to go on and nothing to say. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

He has stated repeatedly, in God, No!, the Showtime show Bullshit! and his various video blogs and radio spots that he has never smoked (tobacco), drank alcohol or used 'recreational' drugs.

He just revealed today on his webcast "Penn's Sunday School" that he used to occasionally bum (and smoke) cigarettes off the crew of his show (don't know if he meant the show at the Rio or the Showtime series). He said that when he realized he was smoking enough that he should really start buying his own, he gave them up. So it's not a correct statement that he has "never smoked tobacco". It may be correct to say he is not currently a cigarette smoker. Professor Hosquith (talk) 22:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Jilljet

I don't have the motivation to look it up, hopefully an individual here might be willing to do so. Penn was on the radio show Loveline sometime this current year. He stated that the reason for the name jilljet was because a person who helped him with the patent process of his product informed him he couldn't patent the word clit and suggested the name as an alternative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.17.166.150 (talk) 15:59, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Global warming

Under personal life we have something about global warming. I've been listening to God No! where he states strongly "I don't know" but says there probably is global warming, it probably is manmade, it probably can be stopped that the answer isn't socialism, but that he doesn't know. Dougweller (talk) 11:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Music videos

Let's do a fact check on the music video section, shall we?

• Ramones – "Something to Believe In"

Does Penn Jillette appear in a music video by the Ramones titled "Something to Believe In"? Yes. He does.

• Run D.M.C. – "It's Tricky"

Does Penn Jillette appear in a music video by the artists Run D.M.C. titled "It's Tricky"? Yes. He does.

• Katy Perry – "Waking Up in Vegas"

Does Penn Jillette appear in a music video by the artist Katy Perry titled "Waking Up in Vegas"? Yes. He does.

• Too Much Joy – "Donna Everywhere"

Does Penn Jillette appear in a music video by the artists Too Much Joy titled "Donna Everywhere"? Yes. He does.

• Rascal Flatts – "Why Wait"

Does Penn Jillette appear in a music video by the artists Rascal Flatts titled "Why Wait"? Yes. He does.

• Clay Aiken - "Clay Aiken by Penn Jillette"

Does Penn Jillette appear in a music video by the artist Clay Aiken titled "Clay Aiken by Penn Jillette"? No. He Does Not.

There is a a music video titled "Clay Aiken by Penn Jillette." That is the correct name of the work. (The previous title this article listed, "Clay Aiken", is incorrect.)

Penn Jillette does indeed appear in said music video. In fact, he is the only person who appears in it.

The music video is not by the artist Clay Aiken. Clay Aiken does not appear in the video. Clay Aiken dis not write or perform the music in the video. The only connection Clay Aiken has with it is the same connection Donna has with the Too Much Joy video "Donna Everywhere".

Penn Jillette wrote, produced, and performed the music video titled "Clay Aiken by Penn Jillette." The page in its present form lists the wrong artist.

Any questions? --Guy Macon (talk) 10:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Just that it's confusing at first sight, but now I understand it. If you'd explained your edit in the edit summary I would have understood. Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Church of the SubGenius Membership?

Recently. User:Pburka removed the following pages from Category:American SubGenii.

Penn Jillette [6] (Mentioned here and here and here)

Rudy Rucker [7] (Mentioned here, here, here and here)

Nancy A. Collins [8] (Mentioned here, here and here)

John Shirley [9] (Mentioned here and here)

Bruce Campbell [10] (Mentioned here and here)

Del Close [11] (Mentioned here)

Paul Reubens AKA Pee Wee Herman [12] (Mentioned here and here)

Lon Milo DuQuette [13](Mentioned here)

These removals were perfectly reasonable, because the articles do not mention membership in the COSG, nor are most of the links I list above reliable sources. Because of this, I am putting out a call for citations to reliable sources that establish Church of the SubGenius membership for these and other celebrities. I suspect that a fair count will put the number considerably higher than the number of celebrity Scientologists. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Guy, why isn't http://www.subgenius.com/ts/hos_logs/Hour_of_Slack_1342.html a reliable source? It even calls him a minister in the church. We also have [14] listing "former Talking Heads singer David Byrne, Penn Jillette (from Penn & Teller) and Pee-wee Herman". Dougweller (talk) 09:16, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is enough. The two parts of WP:BLPCAT that seem most relevant are "Categories regarding religious beliefs ... should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief" -- meaning that We need a citation where Penn Jillette himself says he is a member or strong supporter, and "the case for each category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources" -- meaning we need to add something about Church of the SubGenius Membership in the text with a citation supporting it. As I said before, I think that Pburka removing the category was entirely correct -- which is why I want to improve the article in such a way that the category can be re-added. So, does anyone know of have such a citation? One for Teller would alse be nice if we can find it. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

But this is described as a "parody religion" - it isn't clear that BLPCAT actually covers this, but I've asked. In any case, I can't see why we can't use the sources to say something about this in the article so long as we do this carefully. Jillette is an atheist, it looks pretty clear he belongs to the CoG, but that's not a real church or religion. Dougweller (talk) 08:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the part where WP:BLPCAT says "Categories regarding religious beliefs ... should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief" are more applicable in the case of a parody religion (or a controversial religion such as Scientology, for that matter). I think as a general rule we should not identify someone as being a member of the Church of the SubGenius based on the Church of the SubGenius saying that they are in an Hour of Slack broadcast. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a difference in policy just because something is a 'parody religion' rather than religion, or even just a social group. I would find it equally objectionable to be inaccurately listed as a Mormon, a Kibologist, or a member of ILGA. LK (talk) 23:30, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I've come to the conclusion that this is right, and we'd need Jillette to self-identify. Dougweller (talk) 08:11, 6 August 2012 (UTC)