User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Request to remove Russavia's bureaucrat status on Commons

Jimbo, following a discussion on COM:AN/U, a request has been opened to remove Russavia's status as a bureaucrat on Commons. I thought you would like to know as this is in part related to that portrait of you, although I don't expect you will participate there. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:38, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

This could have all been solved if he would have painted my picture instead. I would have laughed my ass off and posted it on facebook but this is the cost of being a celebrity. People sometimes do things we don't like. Would Jimbo have been offended if Weird Al wrote a sing about him and Wikipedia? I doubt it. This pricasso guy is an odd ball I'll grant you but I really think we are making more of this than what needs to be. Kumioko (talk) 15:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that oversimplifies the larger behavioural issues which lead up to this point. The Pricasso portrait simply brought it to wider attention. Even then, Russavia probably could have avoided having a formal request for removal of some of his rights, but he chose to prevaricate and delay whenever he was asked to participate in discussions about this particular episode. The Commons community could have forgiven the Pricasso image, but his responses to it show a lack of respect that will be hard for them to forgive. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a farce that has gone on long enough, honestly. Russavia still doesn't have the sligtest understanding as to what he did wrong, e.g. posts here like "This ridiculous indefinite block means that I am not able to deal with copyright violations and other problematic files on this project." Then when Spartaz steps in to shut down this joker's talk page access, that access is restored by PeterForsyth, a buddy of Russavia's from Commons. Tarc (talk) 15:53, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Weird Al's White & Nerdy does mention editing Wikipedia. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

A farce, yes - and gone on long enough, certainly - but I disagree that he has no understanding as to what he did wrong. I think he knows only too well, and believes he is safe, surrounded by people who will support and condone this kind of behaviour at Commons. I voted there, for what it's worth, but I think that mess will take more action than a few community votes to sort out. Begoon ^talk 16:00, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, well we have a choice of which community of people who "support and condone" one another's behavior we want to support. Either we support Commons admins who tirelessly deal with an endless torrent of donated content, turning it into a massive and invaluable free archive for all the Internet to enjoy -- or we support the goons from Wikipediocracy lining up to knock off an admin who they see as thwarting their agenda to censor images, humiliate volunteers, lambast Wikipedia in any news medium that will listen to them, and get our project banned in the halls of Parliament. Wnt (talk) 16:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

ROFL. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:32, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Facepalm — Scott • talk 12:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

And I didn't even have to say your name... Hi, Wnt, thanks for the support - your responses sure reduce the effort needed to illustrate the problems we face. You're doing great work. Keep it up. Begoon ^talk 16:36, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Is this sarcasm? I can't tell. I'll work under the assumption that it is. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Mostly sarcasm, yes - but I do find Wnt generally proves exactly the opposite of what he seems to intend. Maybe it's all a hideously clever double bluff... Begoon ^talk 08:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

For what its worth I do think that Russavia has pushed the boundaries on some things and probably shouldn't be a beauro. But not because he suggested some weirdo paint Jimbo's picture. What bothers me is that Jimbo is more worried about shit like this than on theh real problems like RFA, the fiasco that commons has become or the continued dilution of editors by spinning off more and more projects. 'These are real problems. Kumioko (talk) 16:46, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Russavia should not have positions of trust on any project, because he has repeatedly demonstrated that such trust is badly misplaced. Simple. I'm not sure on what you base, though, the assertion that Jimbo is "more worried about this" than those other things. Seems to me he's commented on all of them. We might not like what he has done (or is able to do) about them, in the sense that we wish more were done, and quicker, or differently - but I don't think that's quite the same thing as saying he doesn't care enough. Begoon ^talk 16:52, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

If you watch this page enough, long enough, you'll see what I mean. This picture seemed to upset him more and provoked a much bigger response than many of the important issues. Even his responses to VisualEditorGate were meaningless. My point in this thought was that this situation is utterly and completely meaningless and there are much bigger more important issues that need to be addressed by Jimbo. If Jimbo and others have done anything here its assure that Pricasso will paint again. Kumioko (talk) 20:07, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

This whole Pricasso image dispute is stupid and should die a slow death. It is a painting of a public figure by an artist. Russavia is as much in a "personal dispute" with Jimmy as me or anyone else here who has ever disagreed with our Dear Leader. Calling a completely harmless portrait of a public figure "harassment" trivializes the meaning of the term.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

TDA, smarten up. Do not post that image here again. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I promise not to post the super ebil image here ever again.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarc: "TDA, smarten up." I appreciate your optimism, but it seems unlikely given the puerile response. TDA, regardless of your opinion of the image, the central issues with regard to Russavia and trust and suitability for trusted roles are his lack of honesty and openness when questioned on the issue, and his willingness or desire to de-escalate a situation of his making, rather than inflame it, when it was in his power to act positively instead of play silly games. He was neither honest nor open, and did his best to achieve the opposite of de-escalation. Jimmy was absolutely correct to describe it as trolling, and if Russavia is your idea of a desirable candidate for advanced permissions, well, it speaks poorly of you, in my opinion. Peace. Begoon ^talk 18:13, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I run into so much dishonesty on all sides that I generally only support action when it is dishonesty that has meaningful consequences. Russavia's suitability for cratship should be evaluated on the basis of either particularly egregious and persistent misconduct or repeated tool misuse, not some silly dispute over a harmless image.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:01, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

It's nice to be able to call an image harmless when it isn't being used to harass you. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:03, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Even nicer when it isn't being used to harass anyone, as is the case here. One could argue that it is being used as a basis for harassing Russavia, but that is obviously not what you meant.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:07, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

The video was commissioned and uploaded solely to attack Jimbo as part of an ongoing campaign against him. Merely talking to you sickens me, so I will not comment to you further. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:15, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

What campaign? No such campaign exists. The fact that evidence of this alleged feud usually consists of little more than Jimbo's comment about the image is a pretty good indicator.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Sadly this request is not going anywhere. Once again the Commons community has proven that it is " a disorganized bunch of idiots". The question is if the Wikipedia community is any better? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.121.42 (talk) 19:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps if the video of the artist naked using his genitalia to actually paint the image was removed from the image page and Commons all together it wouldn't be considered harassment, but at this point, regardless of Mr. Wales being a public figure, this seems to cross a line here that seems pretty clear. How that relates to Russavia for suggesting the freely licensed image, I am still unclear on.--Mark 19:06, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

  Russavia contacted Mr.Pricasso and specifically asked him to make the portrait and the video. "Relevant or not, the fact is Russavia really did commission the painting. Pricasso told me as much in an email. Shortly thereafter Russavia confirmed the same, but he bristled at the word "commission" itself."71.202.121.42 (talk) 19:25, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

The whole point of art is that it has to provoke some reaction, albeit not per se a negative one. Count Iblis (talk) 23:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't an art project, nor is Commons. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:42, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree. Encyclopedic value is the determining factor, I thought for inclusion on Commons. I think the point here is this, Jimbo Wales is still a registered contributor on Wikipedia and the painting, while harmless itself, seems to have very little to no encyclopedic value. It really isn't that good a portrait, although I think it is clear who it depicts. How could this be used? We have high quality image files available to illustrate Mr. Wales if his or related articles need them. What concerns me is the video of the artist creating the work. Is this particular method so notable that it needs a video demonstration using a Wikipedia registered user? But, the question is if this constitutes sexual harassment, and frankly it does. Even if this was the Queen, it is a form of humiliating or belittling the subject and I see no particular need for it. It may not come down to whether or not Jimbo Objects. I Can't help but think there is enough reason to simply delete the whole thing as a form of retaliation or even bullying that has no place and pushed the envelope too far. As an artist myself, I don't think we are censoring at all. There is no freedom of expression to be expected at Commons, any more than a freedom of speech on Wikipedia. Many illustrators on Wikimedia have content that isn't being used but at least there is a true possibility of being used. Is it an official portrait? No, so it really lacks value as a depiction of the subject. Not like its of a long gone, historic figure being illustrated by a Commons member. This does seem to have been made for the shock value.--Mark 03:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

There is an article on the artist, who is notable, and the image had been added there when Russavia was building said article in his userspace. It was removed and several editors have been doggedly trying, without any logical consistency, to even keep out a standard interwiki link to Commons if it means the reader is so much as several clicks away from the image. Of course, the interwiki links to other languages and the other Commons images provide similarly indirect linkages, but that sort of logic apparently escapes them. Never mind that you can still get to it on Wikipedia from doing a multimedia search for the artist. Constantly harping about the image isn't helping as anyone can tell from the page view statistics. Eventually, people may get so used to seeing the image that it will stop shocking them and maybe they will begin to see its value. Maybe even Jimmy will learn to appreciate it in time.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:28, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I suppose you might have something when you say that eventually, if things you find distasteful and don't like keep popping up, you'll see some value in them. Keep on popping up, as a kind of live test, and I'll be better able to evaluate your theory. Begoon ^talk 04:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Art is very subjective. The artist does have notability but, while educated in traditional art, his is more about how he creates it, and less about the work itself. This is performance art. Performance artists are notable for the performance as much as the portrait as with David Garibaldi (artist). His work is seen for the quality of the expression, which is unique, modern, vibrant and accepted by the art world and showcased on a national platform. Pricasso's method is notable enough for a demonstration and yes, on the image file page (if kept) but what separates the artist from the rest of the art world could be the genre route that Pricasso took in exotica as a performance artist with a stage name. His work is surrounded with controversy, but in the long run, while it is art, even notable art, is it being used in a manner consistent with our standards? I think there may be an argument to say the artist may have been used unfairly. This wasn't an expression he came to naturally by inspiration, he was commissioned (edit- not a paid commission) asked to make the work by an admin/bureaucrat[1] of Commons for commons and it seems at least to some, to make a point of some kind.--Mark 06:26, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Art is very subjective LOL! Russavia has pulled off the perfect troll where people sit around and debate the art. Take it from those who have followed the case that Russavia intentionally trolled Jimbo, and that Russavia intends to use wikis where he is not blocked to continue poking and trolling Jimbo. Johnuniq (talk) 10:20, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

In a way you are right, but the fact is, it's art. IS this trolling? That seems to be "the point' that many see. But, this is an encyclopedia and we do discuss it to at least sort it out.--Mark 10:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Not everyone who has followed the case shares that view, John. Russavia only added the image to a userspace draft of an article. It was spread around by other people who were not friends of Russavia. People saying this is something personal between Jimbo and Russavia are suffering from a lack of perspective. Jimbo is the public face of Wikipedia and, unlike Jimbo, Russavia is a mere volunteer. That Russavia has occasionally disagreed with something Jimbo said or did is not very meaningful since lots of people have disagreed with things Jimbo has said or done. Any claim of "harassment" or "trolling" is built off the notion that those few instances of disagreement with a public figure amount to a "personal dispute", which is absurd. I have not seen a thing that would seriously suggest there was any personal animosity between Russavia and Jimbo. That Jimbo does not realize the significance of his own station relative to Russavia is his failing.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it is the portrait that crossed the line. It's the accompanying video where the viewer see Pricasso's "process" that crosses into offensiveness when you are talking about a portrait of a living person.

Very few people would have even looked at this portrait of Wales if there wasn't the video so I agree with Mark that this is about performance art, not the portrait itself. And I don't care who the portrait is of, unless the subject consented, it is a violation of BLP by unnecessarily associating them with vulgarity (I don't know how much sophisticated technique is involved with sliding a canvas across ones butt crack). It doesn't matter that it was a portrait of Wales or if it was of President Obama or if it was of you. It's disrespectful.

To me, uploading these files shows a lack of good judgment from someone affiliated with Wikipedia. Whether it outweighs all of the good he has done, others will have to decide. But it seems like it was a move intended to challenge the organization which is not a good sign. Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Anyone that thinks Russavia's actions regarding Pricasso and the Wales image wasn't done out of vexatious spite is delusional. That's all there is to that angle. Tarc (talk) 19:47, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, the crocodile tears and non-apology on the Commons thread were amusing though. If nothing else, Russavia should lose his bureaucrat bit for actually thinking we were stupid enough to think that his getting a guy to paint Jimbo's likeness with their dick would cause anything but drama. He knew full well what he was doing, and what the reaction was going to be. Resolute 22:52, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, it seems to me that if everyone were to adopt your attitude, the World would be in a constant state of war. Count Iblis (talk) 13:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Err, the world IS in a permanent state of war. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The take-home message here is that the value of work on Wikimedia projects is zero. Not $0.0001, I mean literally zero to the infinite position. If you look at the total edit-count or the total upload count for all the people who voted over there, either way, excluding the top five contributors, both of these totals are less than the total edits and the total uploads done by Russavia all by himself. The top five contributors in each case were Russavia and people who voted for him. I did a Google News search for Russavia (which only goes back a short time, unfortunately) and came up with three articles, crediting three images he had uploaded to Commons. But all totted up, the value of that work is zero. Now by comparison, every stray comment, every upload someone doesn't like - these things have value. They add up and add up and turn him into problematic editor, unreliable editor, banned editor. They matter. Look at him ten years down the line and he's just the guy who got banned off Wikipedia, full stop.

So what should people do? I guess they should think twice about every image they upload. Or better yet, just don't upload most of them. Better still - don't upload any of them - it's no loss, no loss at all. If you seize your 0.0001% chance of being paid $0.03 for something you post to Getty Images, who shall have the uncontested and divine right to control and tax every image in every article for all eternity, at least you can add up a tiny pile of cash to compensate your losses. Wnt (talk) 19:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah they could do that - or just vote their conscience despite all that blather. It's all good. I trust people in the long run to do the right thing - and they will.Begoon ^talk 20:27, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Wnt, one thing I've never understood is why Commons values editors who seem to contribute little of their own work but robotically upload anything on Flickr or Geograph that is freely licensed. I also did a search for "russavia" on Google news, and found these three results: Things I'm Thinking 08/07/13, Jason Biggs and Jenny Mollen Expecting First Child, & Russia will monitor cellular subway excuse: Theft Prevention. In each case, the image is (incorrectly) credited to Russavia. Russavia is not the author of any of those images. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Wnt divorced himself from reality long, long ago, and by all accounts it was a fairly acrimonious split. Russavia fucked up by using both en.wikipedia and Commons to further his grudge against Jimbo, and now quite a few people feel that may be conduct unbecoming of a bureaucrat. Wnt will cook up, misrepresent and distort anything & everything he can in order to see his buddy Russavia saved. That is all his posts amount to now; playing the perfect wingman. Tarc (talk) 21:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't even know Russavia. The only "association" I have with him is not agreeing with your witch hunt. Wnt (talk) 22:32, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

You do bring up a good point though. Perhaps we need to write a new policy on both Commons and EN that codifies how many images or FAs you have to create before you earn a free pass on harassment. I suppose an implication of your impassioned defence suggests that you feel being #1 on a list of edits or uploads warrants blanket immunity from all transgressions? Resolute 22:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

General principle at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich_Farmbrough/Workshop#Good_editing_deserves_consideration. The 1 in 1000 threshold I proposed there is for sanctions rather than a standard for admins, but given that Commons voters actually decided to keep the image in question I don't think you even have one to count anyway there. Wnt (talk) 23:17, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

• As someone in favor of the complete dismantling of Commons in favor of image hosting by the individual language projects (where administrators and bureaucrats are the subject of actual scrutiny and there exist mechanisms for the removal of bad actors), I'm personally hoping the vote is 85 -30 in favor of desysopping and they keep him anyway. The worse the better and Russavia is a poster boy for abusive behavior. Go, cat, go. Carrite (talk) 01:48, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
• "I think that oversimplifies the larger behavioural issues which lead up to this point. The Pricasso portrait simply brought it to wider attention. – DC" Exactly; The real problem is the unhealthy team up of some admins’ and a few proposed admins’ attempt override many advices from the WMF that are given by resolutions (like http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Biographies_of_living_people and http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Images_of_identifiable_people). Whenever someone makes a suggestion, they start shouting "This is not Wikipedia. We are independent. We know how to make our policies." Nobody said Commons is part of Wikipedia. But, isn’t it part of Wikimedia? I think we are part of a single community; not several separated isolated communities with mutually conflicting policies and interests. JKadavoor Jee 10:29, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You people have lobbied to keep Pricasso from linking Commons material on Pricasso because the portrait is three clicks away. Meanwhile, if you type "Pricasso" into Google (default filter settings) you're presented with a picture of him painting John McCain. If you people think you're going to make some ideal censored preserve out of Wikipedia with nothing nasty mentioned, understand how ephemeral your "victory" will be. You may get some good administrators like Russavia thrown out, and infiltrate your own people. You may get one or two news cycles about the kinder gentler Wikipedia and how people don't have to worry about seeing the unvarnished truth anymore. But meanwhile out in the real world there's a corporation that started Knol as a competitor to Wikipedia, whose founder has at times made large grants to Wikipedia, which uses Wikipedia results to enhance its searches, which does not share your sense of censorship, because they understand the basic concept that when somebody types in a term they expect to find out as much as possible. They scarcely have competitors yet they still know enough not to forget about them. Do you understand how relatively simple and easy it would be for Google to launch its own mirror copy of all of Wikipedia and Commons, set up its own professional administration, tie the whole thing into Google+ somehow, and forget about you? Or how soon thereafter Wikipedia wouldn't even be able to maintain its servers much less make payroll, as traffic plummeted and the site became regarded not only as censored but out of date? Due to the instability of central control over accumulated crowdsourced resources, Wikipedia's pseudo-democratic model has long been slowly sinking, but it will be surprising how quickly the end comes. The question is whether we can think of a good way to spray the resources across the web in a decentralized community that can function, or whether indeed fifteen years from now no one will even imagine that a project like this could have been done without a major corporation behind it. Wnt (talk) 14:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You've convinced me—to save Wikipedia, we need many more dick pics. I guess we'll also need an escalating series of shock videos to make sure everyone knows we're NOTCENSORED. And when one member of our community has a long standing grudge against another, we will feature their attack pages—long live liberty! Johnuniq (talk) 01:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Nah. To save Wikipedia what we need is constant repetitive moaning about trivial crap to do with cocks on Jimbo's talkpage. Formerip (talk) 01:16, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I find it amusing whenever I see a "Wikipedia is dying, the end is near, it'll come suddenly and sooner than you think" argument. It's amusing because these exact same arguments were being made when I joined the project back in 2005, and yet, here we all are. (I'm sure come 2020 the same arguments will still be being made as well, because all this has happened before, and all this shall happen again). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Expressing a disagreement on any WMF resolution is welcome, but the right place is WMF Resolutions; not in all discussions under individual projects. Such actions, especially from a crat or admin will only do harm to the projects. Further, it gives the public outside a wrong idea that WMF has no control on their projects. JKadavoor Jee 03:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The lobby was to keep material designed to harass three clicks away. Personally, I feel bad for Pricasso. If he had been asked to provide a painting that wasn't designed to denigrate another individual, I'd be one of the first in line to insist that the picture(s) be used here. He was likely only an unfortunate bystander to be used by Russavia to further his own agenda. Resolute 04:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

You and I are agreed on this, Resolute. Pricasso has a unique talent and there's nothing inherently offensive about his paintings. He became an unwitting player in a someone else's game. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Definitely. Cla68 (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, it is too bad that this guy was used by Russavia for bad-faith deeds. Pricasso seems like a rather jolly, carefree fellow, and I certainly hope my penis & abs looks that fabulous when I turn 64. Tarc (talk) 14:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

So are you guys all OK with it if Pricasso uploads a "making of" video for John McCain (as Google shows) or Vladimir Putin? Wnt (talk) 16:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

As long as "other media at Commons" links are removed ahead of time from John McCain & Vladimir Putin, sure. Tarc (talk) 16:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem hosting it on commons as long as it has a free licence and falls within scope. But the governmental aid that commissioned it, will obviously be fired. Agathoclea (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

So...does, Jimbo's public figure status override the making of video in this case as harassment to them as a Wikimedia registered member? Jimbo is really only famous for one thing, Wikipedia. If we know the image was produced to offend, cause a sensation and insult another member, why should either file be hosted here?--Mark 17:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Why are the images hosted on Commons you ask? Well, look at who the have for a bureaucrat; the subject of this topic. If there's no respect for personality rights at the highest levels of the Commons leadership, you'll be hard-pressed to find it in the rest of the project. Shit runs downhill, as they say. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Should we also remove it from Alan Dershowitz? -mattbuck (Talk) 20:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Matt, I am going to assume you just don't care about your fellow Wikimedia users since you chose to not hear that.--Mark 04:46, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Political cartoons have nothing to do with this, but nice try. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm interested to see what you believe is the distinction between one and the other. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

If I actually placed a modicum of value on your opinion, I might just engage in a conversation about that. Alas... Tarc (talk) 21:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, do you agree with this statement "It’s unrespectful to our country. It’s unrespectful to our citizens, because we are Russians"? Count Iblis (talk) 01:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Complete non sequitur, my opinions on homosexuality are none of your business. Honestly, where did some of you yahoos hone your debate skills? Mime school? Tarc (talk) 03:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, when you say you aren't going to answer questions about your position because someone's opinion doesn't matter, that's not debating, it's just namecalling. I assume the idea is that you're thinking like Putin - whatever you like goes, whatever you like doesn't, as long as you have the power you don't need to make any sense. Wnt (talk) 04:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

This debate has degraded into stupidity. Count Iblis...WTF?--Mark 04:49, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Russavia is said to have acted in an unrespectful way toward Jimbo, most of the people who say that do agree that Pricasso is a legitimate artists and paintings he makes are ok. in principle. So, you have a similar issue at the athletics world championships. Most of us are, of course, totally against the Russian laws (I would assume by default that Tarc shares this opinion), however, you can still argue that protests in a country where many people don't share our views will be insulting and dsrespectful toward the population there. You can raise many of the same arguments put forward here (e.g. Commons is not an art exhibition <---> The athletics world championship is not the right venue to demonstrate for gay rights etc. etc.). Count Iblis (talk) 13:15, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Wnt, it's just that I choose to no longer deal with Commons regulars who show up here to knee-jerk support of Russavia. Mattbuck is one of those, as well as a promulgator and cheerleader for all the things that are wrong with the Commons. You fall into that category as well, but you're at least a source of amusement...albeit unintentional on your part, I'm sure. Tarc (talk) 12:53, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

You couldn't just say that its possible there is a cultural misunderstanding? But no, this isn't about culture, its about respecting Wikimedia members and not using images to be disrespectful.--Mark 17:38, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way Count Iblis, no...I don't believe that most people who believe this was disrespectful "do agree that Pricasso is a legitimate artists". No. They may feel it is art, but art can be a squibble on a piece of paper. There are artists and there are legitimate artists. If I am not mistaken, Pricasso has yet to be galleried. His "art" is erotic performance art" and I would say that does not fall under the definition of a "legitimate artist".--Mark 18:02, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it should be mentioned that a "crat" on Commons (Cecil) has announced that they are removing all !votes from all contributors who they think are not active enough at commons to participate [2]. Here is the first list of editors who's votes are being removed or not counted:

User:Razionale, User:AKAF, User:Technical 13, User:Count Iblis, User:Salvio giuliano, User:Tokvo, User:SB Johnny, User:IRWolfie-, User:Steven Zhang, User:Tony1, User:Sunridin, User:Reaper Eternal, User:TCN7JM, User:Pass a Method, User:Seleucidis, User:Peter cohen, User:Mangoe, User:Horologium, User:Tazerdadog, User:Anthonyhcole, User:DanielTom, User:Garion96, User:Mathsci, User:Tarc, User:King jakob c 2 --Mark 18:38, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, it seems that the thug-like mentality is quite pervasive throughout the Commons. Perhaps Cecil can design a special mark that all new Commons editors can display, so that in the future their votes and opinions can be segregated more easily. Tarc (talk) 19:38, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't act like we wouldn't do the same here. --Conti|✉ 19:43, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you want to briefly recap what commons is there for? IRWolfie- (talk) 01:30, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I hope I don't need to explain why a Nazi/Hitler analogy is doubly unacceptable when used against an Austrian user. Even though Godwin's law would require me not to ask this, I still wonder: What is, in your opinion, the difference between what Cecil is doing and this AfD closure's counting method on the English-language Wikipedia? (For avoidance of misunderstandings, this is to defend Cecil, not to criticize Sandstein.) darkweasel94 (talk) 20:54, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't really think too much about this but, who is from Austria darkweasal? You may want to re-think that statement.--Mark 00:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

commons:User:Cecil. darkweasel94 (talk) 11:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid we can't include your opinion here darkweasel....you are not established enough here at Wikipedia with only 186 edits for your opinion to count (that really is sarcasm, but I hope you get the point).--Mark 23:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I know. And you are certainly right to do that - after all, as a Commons regular I have certain preconceived notions that keep me from entering into discussions with an open mind. Amirite? darkweasel94 (talk) 11:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I am sure you noticed the sarcasm note I added, but thanks for responding. Care to explain the inaccurate "Austrian" comment?--Mark 19:33, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Nazi comparisons are unacceptable anyway, but in this case they sound a lot like a xenophobic insult of the form "Cecil shares the mentality of another famous Austrian". It surprises me that people are seeing bad faith in russavia's actions, where that requires an extreme stretch of imagination, but don't see any in something that can very reasonably be interpreted as a xenophobic attack. I'm Austrian myself, you know. darkweasel94 (talk) 21:45, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

There are really two differences. The first is that the AfD concerned an article in a subject area which was known to involve coordinated off-wiki canvassing (which was the subject of an ArbCom case). The second is that Cecil has set an arbitrary limit of 150 contributions, which isn't really the same as discounting the votes of IPs and brand-new editors. 150 contributions seems an unnecessarily high bar. In addition, Cecil has stated that they may discount the votes of long-term users who, in Cecil's opinion, have only contributed recently regarding Russavia's conduct. This latter point is especially troubling, since I can think of at least one Commons admin who left the project because of concerns about Russavia. If that admin were to vote, their vote risks being discounted. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I've proposed a less ad-hoc way to count the votes. Just determine the results as a function of the cut-off and then extrapolate this to infinity. The poll is then about how a hypothetical group of Commons members with an infinite number of contributions would vote given the way people have actually voted there, the information coming from both the vote results and how these correlate with their number of contributions there. This automatically eliminates all the things they want to eliminate, but in a less arbitrary way. Count Iblis (talk) 02:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The only special marks currently under design are mw:User icons, AFAIK. If you're interested in the topic you could check that up, Tarc, instead of perpetrating more personal attacks and adding to the examples of how everything you don't like is immoral and nazi and everything you like is mandatory by law. (I suppose you've apologised to the user by now?) --Nemo 06:47, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, a disgraced ex-meta admin comes lecturing me? How rich. No, I have not apologized as I do not feel there is anything to be apologetic for, the "OMG AUSTRIAN!" stuff is just red herring bullshit. When Cecil decides to backtrack on their statement that they plan to segregate and discount votes that are not considered of the body, then at that point you may consider my Yellow Badge analogy retracted. 'Til then, it stands. Tarc (talk) 19:42, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Russavia is NOT from Austria anyway.--Mark 19:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Cecil is, and that's the argument being made. Regardless, people are focusing on the wrong problem anyway. I think Cecil means well in her comments, and is trying to be fair as she perceives it. However, it is decidedly troubling that the goalposts are being moved in the middle of a debate. Resolute 20:23, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I see a lot of Irony that someone sees an insult to Cecil in such an indirect way...but we are just ignoring an insult to someone else in a direct way. Anyway, yes, her perceptions are not the right method of excluding !votes.--Mark 20:51, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a vote in the first place. Only the arguments for or against removal should be taken into account and weighed up. Everyone should be free to participate in the discussion, but the decision should be made on the basis of Russavia's suitabilty to stay given the presented arguments. Count Iblis (talk) 01:17, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• The community has spent much time writing thousands of lines of discussion about the Russavia/Pricasso issue on many different pages. Looks like highly successful trolling to me, and getting more successful by the day, alas. bobrayner (talk) 23:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Voting closed by Cecil...after a request for speedy deletion for copyright violations

Odd to me that this was closed right after I requested speedy deletion as copyright violations. The main painting does not have attribution. The painting itself is the actual derivative work and the file a derivative of that. Without proper attribution in plain site, it looks as if the original author endorses the use in this manner and/or that the artist is claiming the work as their own. Russavia suddenly denied that this was a derivative work, even after claiming to have suggested the very image to create the work from. The film/video does not have any attribution either and must be given in the film itself. Russavia is also now claiming that the original file of Jimbo Wales is not the properly licensed itself. Within a few minutes of that discussion beginning, Cecil locked the page has not addressed the copyright violations or the licensing issues. I am very concerned this is taking a turn for the worse now.--Mark 06:49, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Cecil stated that the date for closure was supposed to be today (what day? Its like just after midnight so I am unclear if that meant yesterday or today) at any rate, someone on the talk page pointed out that consensus was for the discussion to close at a further date and she has reopened the page.--Mark 07:14, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• I should note that (now) there is a large notice of the time when it is to be closed at the top of the page, under the table of contents. Still another week. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:35, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• Sunday of next week at 6pm (UTC) I believe.--Mark 07:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oh, also, it was pointed out that speedy deletion discussions really don't go on that page so, Cecil need not have addressed that and probably wont, nor any other Commons admin. Although this has indeed begun quite the interesting discussion on that page as well as the video's deletion request page.--Mark 07:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• Fair point. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:44, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• By the way, they are now canvassing to come partake in the Russavia de-Bureaucrat discussion, see here. I particularly like the line "As the discussion to this point has been heavily influenced by voices from the English-language Wikipedia, it was suggested on the talk page to advertise the discussion on other language Wikipedias." Tarc (talk) 13:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I've advertised it here. Count Iblis (talk) 14:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• Commons is irredeemable. It is time for WMF to shut that enterprise down. They are dishonest, undemocratic, vindictive. They engage in massive copyright violation with a sly wink by scraping Flickr without competent image assessment. They are run by a self-perpetuating clique of bad boys that couldn't stick at the language encyclopedias. Their mission is barely even tangential to the educational mission of the encyclopedia project. WMF: Shut. Them. Down. Carrite (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I am going to have to disagree here. Commons does have a role to play. The WMF mission is to spread free access to knowledge throughout the world. Not to spread free text-only unillustrated encyclopedia articles. Make sure that the copyvio is addressed, yes. Stop the harrassment from senior editors over there, yes. But shutting it down is way overkill. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Well it isn't the concept of free content that is at fault, it is the miscreants & louts that control the positions of power in the current Commons that are the problem. Sooner or later, the WMF needs to step in and clean house. Tarc (talk) 03:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

As someone has already pointed out, most of Commons is exactly what it is there for. Its the small portion that is just too glaring and overshadows the good. I don't think getting rid of Commons is the best idea. I think the best idea is to have some function created or option for uploading to Wikipedia alone with no permission to upload manually to commons. Does Commons accept more licenses than Wikipedia or vice versa or the same? The answer might just be to allow CC non commercial works on Wikipedia if that is something that Commons does not allow or something along those lines.--Mark 05:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The English-language Wikipedia accepts (a) non-free files under fair use and (b) files that are ok to redistribute (public domain, freedom of panorama) in the US but not in the source country. Commons accepts GFDL files which AFAIK enwiki doesn't accept. To accept NC licenses except under fair use, you'd need to get the WMF to change wmf:Resolution:Licensing policy, which I hope it won't do. darkweasel94 (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing that. In other words, Commons allows such a broad use over Wikipedia, that anything allowable here, is allowable on Commons. Makes sense.--Mark 18:16, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Seems you misunderstood darkweasel94. (a) Commons does not allow any fair-use (per U.S. law) material. (b) Commons does not allow non-U.S.-sourced material that is free in the U.S., but unfree in the source country. --Túrelio (talk) 18:24, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

[[:image:The world's most northerly ATM machine.jpg|thumb|left|320px|I found that out when uploading this picture, I didn't know that the red thing around the "1" is a patented logo and that you then can't tag the picture to be moved to Commons because it would then be deleted from Commons and Wikipedia would lose this picture. Count Iblis (talk) 18:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC)]]

I'm being pedantic, but Logos aren't patented, they are under trademark law. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Russavia to be de-cratted but not desysopped

The decision to de-crat Russavia has de-facto been taken (but not offically announced; it's clear from the votes cast that Commons has no choice but to de-crat him). However, that leaves the people who want to de-crat him in a much more awkward position, because Russavia will keep most of his user rights as he is still an Admin. As someone pointed out on Commons "The only access he would lose is admin/bot promotions, username renames, and other community specific tasks that doesn't require special access........ So Russavia will keep the tools that impact other wikis the most and will loose the tools that do not impact other wikis at all". Desysopping Russavia is not on the cards, that requires a consensus that abuse of Admin tools has been proven to have happened. Count Iblis (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

What is your point? -mattbuck (Talk) 16:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I explained this here some time ago. Count Iblis (talk) 18:03, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia and the editor who is differently able

I'm sure you have come across this before. Indeed you may have read, for example, WP:AUTISM. If not I commend it to you.

The reason I'm seeking to interest you in this area is best highlighted by a brief visit to my talk page where I asked for, and received help. We, by which I mean Wikipedia in general and as a community, are not skilled at coping with including differently able editors into the family.

Are you able to give this area some mindspace, perhaps considering some form of inclusiveness initiative? Fiddle Faddle 17:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

See User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 97#Deborah Tannen on interpersonal communication (February 2012)

and User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 101#Autism-spectrum editors - new user essay (April 2012)

and User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 112#Collaboration, interaction, understanding, and bridging gaps (July 2012).

—Wavelength (talk) 20:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

It's kind of you to offer those. None, I think, reached any form of positive inclusive action? Fiddle Faddle 20:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

What I'm discovering working with one editor is precisely how challenging it is working with differently able folk. Meeting erudite, educated, expressive folk who express themselves and think differently is a huge challenge. We do need some form of initiative, I'm sure we do. Fiddle Faddle 15:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I am unaware of any Wikipedia initiative beyond what has already been mentioned in this discussion and on the linked pages. You might wish to mention "WP:AUTISM" on your user page, as a reminder to yourself or as a publicity to others or as both.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

That is the reason for my message here. I am hoping to catch Jimbo's attention and imagination. Fiddle Faddle 11:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo needs to give attention to his wife and to their first child and to the roles that he has as a father. See User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 140#I will be mostly away for a few days (August 2013). He will probably be more receptive to your suggestion after a month or a few months. Meanwhile, you can try to promote it at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Many issues need more public awareness, and many people need to establish priorities with many things competing for their time and attention.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC) and 18:38, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. It's kind of you to remind me of that. Fiddle Faddle 06:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Origin of the Ecology Summit article

Jimbo, what do you think about the origin of the article Ecology Summit? Do you think the original editor had a conflict of interest? Do you agree it was Richard Stromback's idea to bring everyone together at Branson's island? What do you think of the content-to-reliable-sources ratio of the Ecology Summit article? Did you go to Richard Stromback's 40th birthday bash in Davos, Switzerland in January 2009, as the Wikipedia biography claims? In your multiple meetings with Richard Stromback, did you ever discuss your "bright line rule" about conflict-of-interest editors writing their own promotional content on Wikipedia? 2001:558:1400:10:DC43:8FF8:A483:DC56 (talk) 19:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

(1) I have never read that article and to my knowledge this is the first I've ever heard of it. (2) I don't know if the original editor had a conflict of interest, but clearly the editor is a single purpose account which ought to trigger some alarm bells. (3) I do agree that it was Richard Stromback's idea to bring people together at Branson's Island for that summit. I'm unaware of that particular detail being controversial in any way. After all, the New York Times article says "The Caribbean getaway was the brainchild of Richard Stromback". (4) I haven't read the article, but having attended this summit, I find it highly unlikely that it was notable enough to warrant a Wikipedia entry. There are many such meetings and conferences. Because I adhere strongly to the view that people should avoid editing with a conflict of interest, I don't imagine that I should get involved with any potential deletion discussion. I haven't looked into what the usual standards are for notability for conferences and meetings. But if I were voting, I'd vote to delete. (5) I did go to Richard Stromback's 40th birthday party in Davos, Switzerland in January, 2009. (But it was a party in the Piano Bar, and I always go to the Piano Bar in Davos, so I would have been there whether Rich had a party or not, so this strikes me as a pretty non-notable tidbit.) (6) Rich Stromback is a personal friend (drinking buddy, attended my wedding) and I don't recall ever talking to him about Wikipedia editing. If he had asked, I would of course give my usual advice to avoid COI editing in all cases. As it stands, I will email him right now, and the full content of my email will be a link to this discussion and "Dude, WTF?" He's a good guy and may not even be aware of this. With all the trolls who like to advocate for allowing for paid editing in Wikipedia, someone on his staff may have been led astray.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Any word back from Stromback? Looks like a Wikipedian in good standing chopped down his BLP a bit, but it's still a big article of fluff, if you ask me. 2001:558:1400:10:ED32:7A04:A752:4826 (talk) 13:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Addendum: I think I can be forgiven for assuming who wrote this inquiry, and I went to see at a certain Wikipedia-criticism site if I could find any further discussion of it. At the moment, I'm sitting in a hospital room working as we are waiting to be discharged from the hospital with our new baby (yay). There is no wi-fi, so I'm connecting through my phone. My phone provider is TalkMobile and they have already implemented the "porn filtering" that David Cameron seeks to have made the default, an idea I have blasted in the press. One reason I'm so opposed to it is that such filters invariably have serious errors... in this case, the front page of wikipediocracy could not possibly be construed as 'porn' or content that any sane filter should block. And yet, it's blocked here. I will complain. (Conspiracy theories are welcome to try to claim that I'm somehow behind the blocking - I'll find that nonsense to be quite amusing! Extra points if you can manage to work in Kazakhstan somehow.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:53, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

While I am unable to advise whether or not wikipediocracy should be construed as 'porn' or not, I am delighted to read the good news about your new baby. Congratulations to both of you! (or should I say your whole family?). . dave souza, talk 18:04, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps they have been discussing the issue of porn on Commons so often on Wikipediocracy that this caused their site to be flagged as a porn site :). Count Iblis (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing it might be because there have been a number of links to some of Mattbuck's user subpages, as examples of what's kinda icky about commons and its management class. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 22:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

@Jimbo: Thanks for reading along at Wikipediocracy... the moderating staff there tries very hard to keep things more salient than it was at the old place. I can't really tie this to Wikibilim, but perhaps someone smarter than I can tie it to that Chinese guy that apparently got into some trouble for something you said at Wikimania, because as far as I can tell the WMF has been conspicuously mum about him. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 22:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

My understanding from the Chinese community is that this story is false. A Chinese Wikipedian was banned from leaving mainland China in 2009. You can read the original story here and use Google translate to confirm (sort of, within the limits of Google translate). The techinasia story says " It’s not clear if Huang’s ban is related to Wales’ comments." Actually, it's very clear that anything I may have said in 2013 would not have caused something that happened in 2009. I additionally hear from the Chinese community that the editors ban has nothing to do with Wikipedia editing, but other kinds of activism. Many people edit Wikipedia in China without being banned from leaving, so that makes sense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. There have also been problems finding any trace of the person's name outside the accounts, though there could be all sorts of reasons for that. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 12:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikibilim header

Jimbo, I saw that you mentioned Kazakhstan above. Have you visited the Wikibilim.kz website lately? Notice whose photo portrait adorns the header of every single page of Wikibilim? It appears to be a photo of Karim Massimov, the recently-reassigned five-year Prime Minister of Kazakhstan! Right now, he's the Head of the Executive Office of the President of Kazakhstan. But, supposedly, the Kazakh government isn't really entrenched in the noble Wikibilim project, right? Wikibilim is completely separate from the Kazakh government, correct? 2001:558:1400:10:8042:18FF:8D83:6E38 (talk) 20:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever visited that website. I'll ask Wikibilim to comment.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Role of Jimmy Wales

The person who has this role should be given an official title. That would make it clear that Wikipedia should always have someone with this title. Jimbo should appoint someone to succeed him or this should be decided by the community. I would suggest that the title should be "Jimbo", the editor who succeeds Jimbo should edit from the account User:Jimbo 2; the editor who succeeds User:Jimbo n will edit from the account User:Jimbo n+1. Count Iblis (talk) 23:44, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Presumably Jimmy isn't going to answer that, any more than he'd tell you where his TARDIS is hidden. Sheesh. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 00:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

See Category:Chief executives in the technology industry.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

He'll be replaced by a bot (I kid).--Mark 00:48, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

"Jimbot" does have a ring to it, but I'll leave the joke writing to others... Carrite (talk) 04:38, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

If we don't get something done about the quality of NPP and AfC reviewing done soon, and something done about RfA, Jimbo will probably outlive Wikipedia and there will be no need for a successor - of course, as I know where his Tardis is parked, he could always appoint me... ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

But wouldn't Tardis allow Jimbo to be in charge into the indefinite future? Count Iblis (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't roman numerals be used, e.g. "Jimbo II", "Jimbo III" etc. Herostratus (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

But seriously, although this is not gonna change now, I personally find it annoying and mediocre that Jimbo retired/is retiring and chose to replace himself with no one. Yeah yeah there is ArbCom and "the community" in general but its not the same and everyone knows its not the same. Yes there is a head to the Wikimedia Foundation but that has little to do with the governance of the English Wikipedia. I understand the idea that it's supposed to be that the crowd-written encyclopedia should be the crowd-governed encyclopedia but there's no reason that these two things must be conjoined, and color me skeptical (and we are supposed to be "first and foremost an encyclopedia" and not an experiment in running an engine without a driver). Human institutions thrive on strong leadership. That's just a fact, and if people don't like that it doesn't make it any less of a fact.

It's not as if this sort of thing hasn't been tried before scores of time in history. Does not usually end well. Even the Chicago Cubs tried this for a while (did not go well).

I mean, look. For example, there are editors here that are the type of people that you just can't have in your organization, and you (Jimbo) know this and I know this and everyone who understands organizational development and organizational system dynamics knows this, but there isn't anyone to actually do anything about it, not without at really drawn out and painful process if at all. There are discussion about trivia (T/the Beatles much?) that beg for someone to say "This has gone on for months/years with millions of words spent, bad feelings, editors quitting, editors being sanctioned, and so forth, and there's no 'right' answer but I've read the discussions and here's my decision and there's no appeal so let's move on and if you can't deal with that we wish you well in your future endeavors". Can you imagine what Perry White would say if he saw what we have to put up with? Great Caesar's Ghost indeed.

This doesn't mean that all the day-to-day stuff of RfC's and proposing and enforcing rules and all that can't be devolved to the community, but at the end of the day, and at at the margins, for the tough cases, you want someone to lead, and sorry but that includes deciding things (among other responsibilities). Of course you want a good person and not a moron or martinet or poltroon etc., and that's the rub, but my reading of business lit inclines me to think that selecting and grooming one's successor is one of the key abilities required of a chief executive. It is hard, though. Many otherwise good executives fail here it is true. But so, it's hard. Avoiding hard things is not usually how humanity progresses.

And Chief Editor of the English Wikipedia (other large Wikipedias also, probably, but at any rate the English one) would be a very attractive position. Salary in (I suppose) the mid six figures and hella glory to boot. There's not a lot of people that you couldn't get for the position. Top people from Brittanica, the Smithsonian, the Ivy League, Fleet Street, Silicon Valley, wherever you want.

Not gonna happen I guess but probably should. Herostratus (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Lord Sugar could perhaps be such a leader. Count Iblis (talk) 18:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't know Sugar but he looks more like headd-of-the-WMF type (if he was interested at all, which I assume not). My inclination would be to look at young people (by that I mean say under 50) with hands-on experience in the guts of a good encyclopedia, magazine, journal, publisher, or somesuch organization. You could start with say Greg Healy's organization at Brittanica. Not necessarily Healy himself but if he's any good he's got a coterie of young guns around him, some of whom are ready to make their mark in the world. Places like that. I dunno, I don't have experience in these rarified domains. What you want is someone who can make good decisions, which is an art not a science; you need to know when to not make a decision and when to, you need political savvy, you need the intelligence and... the je ne sais quoi, i guess, to usually make the right decision (not always, nobody can that); the confidence to move forward and stand one's ground coupled with the humility to back up fast when when one's made a mistake; and the ability to judge character. It's not an easy package to find. Herostratus (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

isn't the governance of enwiki a hereditary monarchy? therefore, wouldn't Jimbo's firstborn get the founder bit? -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 04:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, by extension from Wikipedia:Primogeniture. Herostratus (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

But, you know, question for Jimbo: did you look at the Wikipedia and say "It's fine and it's working, but the one problem is that that there's a leader with vision in charge, and we have to get rid of that"? (Not "It's too much for one person to handle", because that's true of any large publication, which is why Chief Editors have a staff.) I mean, what were you thinking?

Of course the downside of all this is ____ ______. (Can't say the the name cos of BLP, but imagine a large tech company where the charismatic founder is replaced by a no-vision bean-counter). So I dunno. Has this occurred to anyone else or is it just me I wonder. Herostratus (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I once had a fish called Jimbo, so called because it wasn't as big as the fish called Jumbo. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Killing of Anti Superstition activist in India on 20th Aug 2013.

Dear Sir, I am not sure if it is right place to put the information. But I think that it is the most effective way to put the request. I am aware that you may not be the right person but it will take time to find out the right person. Hence putting this request on your talk page.

Dr. Narendra Dabholkar was an social activist who has been killed yesterday. He was anti superstition activist and had contributed a lot towards this movement in Maharashtra and India. He was trying to pass a bill against witchcraft in government of Maharashtra, India.

It would be great if this page and photo can appear in Wikinews. It is an extremely important news for India and for world in my opinion. Apologies for posting this on your talk page. Thanks. -- Abhijeet Safai (talk) 06:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello Abhijeet Safai. I see his article has already been nominated for a front page place, In the News section. You can comment and vote there. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 07:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. -- Abhijeet Safai (talk) 08:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

VisualEditor newsletter for 21 August 2013

Both VisualEditor and MediaWiki were upgraded recently. For VisualEditor, this is the long-awaited post-Wikimania update with many bug fixes and enhancements. Work also continues on speed at opening and during use, as well as on the bugs reported here and at other Wikipedias. The full report is at Mediawiki.

References are displaying properly, even when nested (Template:Bug) or in image captions (Template:Bug. Reference lists are now always fully populated with references (bug 50094). Firefox users can insert an existing reference in the first paragraph (Template:Bug). Opera users no longer see corruption of categories when a reference was added (bug 50385).

Stray spaces are being stripped from the start of paragraphs to end one of the common <nowiki> problems (Template:Bug). We also fixed a round-tripping bug that caused desirable whitespace in templates (used to make templates more legible, e.g., by putting each parameter in an infobox on a separate line) to get corrupted (bug 51150).

Wikilink handling was improved. Users are not allowed to create internal links to invalid titles (titles that are actually impossible due to limits on acceptable character combinations in titles, not redlinks) (Template:Bug). You can extend wikilinks, but it won't do so over a wordbreak (like a space) (bugs 49931 and 51463).

A handful of fixes to the user interface were made. The toolbar doesn't float over personal tools after opening a dialog or the inspector (Template:Bug). Toolbars were also re-written to be collapsible/expandable, with room for more icons. Buttons in dialogs can now be activated using the Tab ↹ and ⇧ Shift+Tab ↹ key commands (bug 50047). This saves time for editors, because you don't need to take your hands off the keyboard to click a button. We fixed a handful of bugs that affected only certain articles or certain browsers, including toolbar buttons in Firefox (bug 51986) and dialog panels that didn't always scroll correctly (bug 51739). Bugs with undo/redo getting confused have been fixed (Template:Bug).

Images, in addition to getting references displaying correctly, also saw improvements with a set-empty |link= parameter no longer corrupted (51963). We corrected thumbnail images' display so that they look don't wrong in some contexts (bug 51995). Inserted images no longer explicitly set their alignment, but instead inherit the default position in compliance with the Manual of Style (bug 51851).

More edit notices, warnings, and metadata like information about Pending Changes on an article now appear as appropriate (bug 49699). When new articles are created, users are now shown the <newarticletext> message (bug 51459). VisualEditor now handles templates that set "meta" items (like a category) and nothing else better (bug 51322). If the database is locked when a user tries to save with VisualEditor, they now get a message telling them as such and an opportunity to try again, rather than a silent failure (bug 51636).

When you save the page, having the default preference set to "mark all my edits as minor by default" no longer overrides the setting in the save dialog (bug 51515). If you open VisualEditor from a section edit link, the section's title will be pre-filled in in the edit summary box when you go to save it (bug 50872). The size of the save dialog box in the Monobook skin has been fixed (bug 50058). Also, wikipage content handlers like sortable tables are re-run automatically after saving (Template:Bug).

A very early version of the mathematics equation editor is now available for testing on mw:Mediawiki. If you would like to help improve the user interface for math editor, please test out the extension at mw:Mediawiki:Sandbox and leave your comments directly at the discussion page for the Math Node User Interface at Mediawiki. You should be able to use your regular username and password should to login to Mediawiki.

For other questions or suggestions, or if you encounter problems, please let everyone know by posting problem reports at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback and other ideas at Wikipedia talk:VisualEditor. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) 17:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Internet.org

"Mark Zuckerberg aims to put the entire world online".

• Internet.org

—Wavelength (talk) 17:50, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Hell, I need to get off it!! :) --Malerooster (talk) 18:45, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Advertising on the Main Page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This passed almost without comment, so I thought I'd mention it here. A couple of days ago, DYK included the hook:

... that British manufacturer Karrimor's formidable reputation for ground-breaking outdoor pursuit equipment was a direct result of its location in Lancashire, and a CEO who was an avid climber and trekker?

Should we have stronger guidance against this sort of thing? Or should we maybe go the other way and just issue a rate-card? Formerip (talk) 00:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I noticed the above at NPOVN and saw how it looked on the main page. I was dumbfounded that such puffery could be deemed acceptable. The archive showing how it appeared is here (permalink). Johnuniq (talk) 08:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Ugh. I'd love to get more details on this. Do we have any reason to think that this was the result of corruption, or was it just a very poor editorial judgment?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Well, this is interesting. The hook (posted by User:FT2) was originally promoted into the prep queue but then de-peacockised by User:Alex Shih here, who was then scolded for doing it on his talk page by User:FT2 (the discussion is still on Alex and FT2's talk pages here and here). Alex then apologised to FT2 and re-inserted the promotional language here while it was on the main page. Black Kite (talk) 11:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It had also been raised on DYK talk here. I entirely agree the language was inappropriate. Johnbod (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Shouldn't this all be moved to WP:AN then given its overtones, so Alex Shih and FT2, who apparently are administrators who did not administer very well, can answer the community and any future remedy can be explored. Rather then spread here and yon? Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, that's probably a better venue, so I have done so. Black Kite (talk) 14:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Internet security crisis

Academic mathematicians are on the verge of decrypting the Diffie–Hellman key exchange and the RSA (algorithm), which "underlie many of the authentication and verification standards on the Internet." Those include the HTTP Secure protocol.

• 'Cryptopalypse' Now: Looming Security Crisis Could Cripple Internet | TechNewsDaily.com (August 21, 2013)

—Wavelength (talk) 15:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Some WP:CRYSTAL involved here. This article from the MIT Technology Review on 2 August 2013 says "Our conclusion is there is a small but definite chance that RSA and classic Diffie-Hellman will not be usable for encryption purposes in four to five years." Elliptic curve cryptography has been suggested as an alternative. --♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, sure. From the news story: Both algorithms are on the verge of being "cracked" — proven to be vulnerable to attack — by academic mathematicians. "There is a small but real chance that both RSA and Diffie-Hellman will soon become unusable," said the Black Hat presenters . . . "On the verge" is not quite the same thing as "small but real". Looie496 (talk) 15:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It's quite surprising that in this area you can still have elementary high school level methods that are still to be discovered. You would think that since the times of Euler or even Gauss, there is nothing simple left to discover. A very simple modular arithmetic algorithm to reconstruct a fraction a/b from the modular value a*b^(-1) where the inverse is computed modulo some sufficiently large integer, was only found in the early 1980s, see here.

But then there is a simple cryptographic method that can be proven to be unbreakable, this is called (as Looie pointed out to me on the computing ref desk), the one-time pad method, you then only need a good source of random numbers, using pseudo-random numbers is bit problematic here. You could use a device that generates noise (perhaps noise from a radio tuned to a frequency that is not used). Count Iblis (talk) 18:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I posted the following suggestions, now archived at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 99#On comparing articles now with six years ago (March 2012)

• "You can use RANDOM.ORG - True Random Number Service. You can use 100,000 Digits of Pi (Pi). You can use 10000 digits of e (e (mathematical constant)). You can use Digits of Phi (Golden ratio)."

—Wavelength (talk) 19:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I would not feel secure encoding files by taking the "random" bits from well known constants. Especially not pi, given that the binary digits of pi can be generated by a rather simple algorithm. Count Iblis (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Using pseudo-random numbers in a one-time pad isn't "a bit problematic", it's completely fatal: doing so reduces a one-time pad to a stream cypher. --Carnildo (talk) 00:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Photographs at the Yad Vashem website. Can WP and VY come to an agreement to use material?

Hi Jimbo. Watching the great current work being done at Auschwitz concentration camp by two great eds, a thought occured while visiting the Yad Vashem website and seeing their overwhelming photographic collection. In terms of Holocaust awareness and education, would not some form of agreement between the two parties to allow free usage of some photographs be feasable? To would deeply enrich all related articles on WP, and would serve the purpose of educational awareness. It just seems a very valuable agreement, if WP and VY began a dialogue? Sorry, but I did not know of a more appropriate forum, as it involves higher WP policy. BTW, I am completely unclued in the terrifying complex world of copyright and WP policies in this area, so I apologise in advance for any ignorance or naivity shown. Cheers! Irondome (talk) 00:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Just found out you may be away for a bit. Congratulations to all and a sweet life to the new addition. This can wait. Cheers! Irondome (talk) 00:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Transphobia on Wikipedia

Hello,

I realise that this may be construed as a violation of my current (and hopefully to be rescinded) topic ban, but as a trans editor, I cannot simply sit and watch as Talk:Chelsea Manning is used as a platform for transphobic statements. On my twitter, I've collected several quotes from Wikipedia editors, including one administrator. This sort of behaviour, and the current systemic bias against trans people, has to stop. Selected quotes include:

• "By all means he can have surgery, wear women's clothes or have himself transformed into a dolphin, but leave wikipedia out of it."
• "Manning is a convicted criminal, and I couldn't care less about him/her/it."
• "If he (not she) said he wanted to be black now, would you describe him as African-American??"
• "And he could say he wants to be called Minnie Mouse, for all we care, but that don't make it so."
• "I don't think this project should be running around willy-nilly just because someone woke up this morning and said "today I am a girl!"."
• "I could declare myself as the King of England, but it doesn't mean Wikipedia will suddenly refer to me as His Majesty."
• "It is not an "opinion" that men have XY sex chromosomes and women have XX sex chromosomes — it is a biological fact."
• "Wikipedia is about FACTS not gay-lobby propaganda."
• "Why not use "it" until gender has been legally established?"
• "What would you do if s/he self-identified as a dog, cat, broomstick, or banana then? Self-identification is not the same as legal identity"
• "If I wake up in the morning and decide I am a woman, it doesn't make it so. This absolutely reeks of political correctness."
• "This dude is named Bradley Manning until officially recognized by the courts. Chelsea is what we would call a nickname."

This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to anti-transgender editing on Wikipedia. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Cases/Sexology allowed a tendentious fringe theorist who subscribes to the theory that lesbian trans women are men who are attracted to the thought of themselves as woman to continue editing. This is an encyclopedia which has had similar problems before, on Chaz Bono and Laura Jane Grace. We desperately need to do something about it, as the net result will drive prospective trans editors off. Sceptre ^(talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)