Talk:Grace Hopper

bug

It is true that the word "bug" did not originate with Grace Hopper, but she is part of the mythology of the application of the word to computers so some mention of her connection with computer bugs is probably in order in this article. See this web site:

http://www.jamesshuggins.com/h/tek1/first_computer_bug.htm

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Egern (talk • contribs) 19:31, 29 November 2001

Good site! LarryW 19:44 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I once heard her speak, and she was quite clear that the term "bug" was already in use in other electrical fields for 'an unexplained connection problem', and that they had been informally using it on the Mark II. That was why finding an actual bug causing their 'computer bug' was so ironic.

She was also quite careful not to claim that she had personally found the bug; it was found by others, she just pasted it into the logbook and wrote the famous comment. (A mistake in this article I've corrected.)

She seems to have been very careful about always being accurate -- not surprising, considering her experience in computer programming. T-bonham 22:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the current page is still misleading: "Though the term computer bug cannot be definitively attributed to Admiral Hopper, she did bring the term into popularity.[18]" To me, that suggests that Hopper probably originated the term, but we don't know for sure. The opposite is the case. The famous comment strongly suggests that it was not the first reference to a computer bug. I'd suggest the following wording: "Though the term computer bug was likely not invented by Grace Hopper, she did bring the term into popularity.[18]" It's at least possible that she invented it at some earlier time, so I wouldn't want to state definitely otherwise. If so, it's clear that this was not the time.

Also, I side-stepped the issue of what rank to give her. She wasn't an admiral at the time and she doesn't have any rank now. Is there a standard on this? FubarTheMagnificent (talk) 02:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

compiler

The page entry for Grace Hopper states that "She was ... the developer of the first compiler for a computer programming language." But the page entry for compilers, called "Compiler," states "Several experimental compilers were developed in the 1950s, but the FORTRAN team led by John Backus at IBM is generally credited as having introduced the first complete compiler, in 1957." Was Hopper a member of the Backus team? If so or if not, may I suggest that some clarification is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zephyr1986 (talk • contribs) 18:19, 8 August 2005

She had internal compilers for the A-0 and A-1 language on the UNIVAC I system in 1951-1952. Her A-2 version (Arith-Matic) system was released to customers in 1953 (as an open source project no less!). Those are probably the "several experimental compilers" that were mentioned in the FORTRAN article. But those did not do everything that modern compilers do, so one can argue that they were not 'complete' compilers. Hopper was not in any way a member of the Backus team, in fact, there was said to be quite a rivalry between their teams. Certainly was one between their companies. T-bonham (talk) 02:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Compilers

My understanding is that her team produced compilers that predated FORTRAN. The source of the confusion is likely n-fold:

-- You have to define "compiler" somehow, and there were a number of primitive "automatic programming" attempts that probably fell into the fuzzy area.

-- You have to define "complete". It may be that Hopper's products required some manual post-processing, eg.

-- The statement about FORTRAN may be referring to a COMMERCIAL compiler, or one that was "generally available". Often statements start well-qualified (eg, "the first successful commercial compiler") and the qualification is lost in editing or requoting.

It certainly would be nice to settle this, while some of the players are still alive. --drh 21:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Few people have done as much to change the world as Grace Murray Hopper in her work with the first computers, she put us on the way to making computers available to everyone . In 1952, She invented the first computer compiler. she was the first person to receive the computer Sciences Man of the Year Award 1969.

Fond memories of Grace Hopper

I had the pleasure(?) of working with Commander Hopper while at the Navy Electronics Laboratory in San Diego in the early 1960's. We had developed a scientifically oriented compiler based on ALGOL 58, which saw some success in a variety of military applications for the Navy's command and control shipboard applications. This was called NELIAC and the operating system was called NELOS.

Little did I know that Commander Hopper thought programming should be done in English not with Mathematical symbols, so we got a royal roasting from her at the time since she had been so important to the development of COBOL which has a very wordy syntax.

She delighted in pulling an 11 inch long piece of wire from her purse, waving it around and saying "do you realize that light travels only this far in one nanosecond?" We all thought -- so? Well she said, these enormous computers you use today are all like Dodo birds: the computers of the future will need to be so small that they will achieve the fastest computation times possible because of the shortest connections possible. And, the future of computing lies with networked very small very fast computers which will talk to each other.

Now, at the time, we were using a very high speed link using microwave to connect ships' computers together, and since the state of the art telephone modems at the time could barely do 1200 bps the idea struck us as incomprensible.

But, the grande dame of computing saw further than we did. Remember, the computer chip had not been invented yet, but there were some integrated circuits in the laboratories and I always presumed she read about these and instantly realized that someday a computer would fit on a chip. And, even more amazing was her perception about networking which is still relevant more than 40 years later. --Arthur 07:47, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

It goes further than you think. What you just described there ("the future of computing lies with networked very small very fast computers which will talk to each other") perfectly describes BlueGene (which my research group is part of) →Raul654 09:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

My mom got to meet Admiral Hopper once. She gave my mom a nanosecond. That is, she gave my mom a piece of wire, that was the exact length of the distance that light travels in one nanosecond--Kirk Surber 15:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What delightful memories! Informative and humanizing...thank you! rewinn 06:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Around 1971-1972, then Commander Hopper gave a talk at Virginia Tech, in the Squires Auditorium. We all coveted a little time on the two IBM-370-155 mainframes over in Burrus Hall, and owning our own computers was a total fantasy. She passed out a bunch of "nanoseconds" (short lengths of comm wire one nanosecond in wavelength) and then told us that to clock at a nanosecond, the radius of a computer could not be larger than that. You could not move data between register and memory at a high clock rate if the distance was too great. Thus, computers would have to be small in order to be fast. Then she said that small computers would be cheap. She predicted, quite correctly, that in a few years, computers costing under $5000 would be available, which we could have on our own desk, and use as we pleased. You could sense jaws dropping around the room! I was salivating, as she predicted how this would fundamentally change the way computers were used. I don't think any science fiction authors understood this for, what, a decade? The lady got it! And I was quite struck by her poise and confidence. I had no doubt that she knew what she said was hard fact. And here I sit, typing this on a computer with a 1/3 nanosecond effective clock speed, purchased for around $1000! Tomligon (talk) 16:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Navy Retirement

I corrected some information about ADM Hopper's Navy retirement(s) but I am researching a further item; I believe that after her recall in 1971 she had the status of Retired On Active Duty, as did ADM Hyman Rickover for much of his Naval service. I am trying to verify this and will make corrections necessary when I have. Ray Trygstad 20:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Nanosecond - The wire illustrates how fast an electron travels through a piece of wire. Light does not travel through wire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.97.182 (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Light travels something less than one foot in one nanosecond. The wire is for illustration.Mhjohns (talk) 02:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

"Although no longer a serving officer, she always wore her Navy full dress uniform to these lectures." ADM Hopper was a retired officer, as such 'no longer a serving officer' is meaningless and perhaps not accurate. A retired officer is an officer. All officers are serving. Retired officers are permitted and encouraged to wear their uniforms for public speaking engagements which would bring credit on the service (which her speaking engagements certianly did). This whole sentence is inaccurate and may have a negative slant for a woman who has done much for our nation, and for the computing profession. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.79.200.38 (talk) 13:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so... edit the sentence and fix it already!  :-) 99.102.75.166 (talk) 22:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Earliest reference for Hopper's Bug

There is an email message from 1981 that recounts the story of Adm. Hopper taking the bug out of the relay ... it is the earliest recorded version of the story that I can find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dennette (talk • contribs) 15:23, 8 April 2006

I heard her speak on two different occasions and both times she credited her "moth" experience as the beginning of the phrase "computer bug". J Baughman

Emails generally aren't a reliable source by Wikipedia standards, so I've added a Time magazine citation to the account. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Time doesn't seem to be all that reliable a source either. The story there gives a date of August, 1945 for this event; it's known to have happened on September 9th, 1947 (the actual log page even has the date on the top of the page), and in 1945 Hopper was still in the military. Also Time says it was the Mark I machine, it was the Mark II (the log page refers to components of the Mark II machine). T-bonham 22:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if I can find it, but I am fairly certain that a notebook page with the moth taped on appeared on the cover of a science publication, possibly Science News, a decade or two ago. That suggest to me that the original record, probably including the original "bug", does still exist. This would be the ultimate citation, if it can be located. Tomligon (talk) 16:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It's currently on display at the Smithsonian (reference #4 in the article) ... let's give it a rest! —[[::User:72.75.72.63|72.75.72.63]] ([[::User talk:72.75.72.63|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/72.75.72.63|contribs]]) 17:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This is popular urban legend, but the term is much older. Edison commonly used "bug" to describe a problem. This. of course, is possibly the first use in association with a computer. Barnaby the Scrivener (talk) 13:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

That this was the first use of the term "bug" is certainly urban legend. It may have been the first use in reference to a computer; there weren't many other computers at the time. But this story probably popularized the term in the computer field.

I once heard Admiral Hopper speak, and she was careful to be accurate in saying that it was not the first use of the term, just the first time that the 'bug' was an actual bug. Also that it was not her that found the bug, but one of her staff; she just wrote it up in the log book (and pasted the actual bug in there). T-bonham (talk) 02:21, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

First programmer?

What year did Grace Hopper first write a program for the Mark I? And what was the program? Robert K S 13:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

She was not the first programmer of the Mark I. According to a transcribed remark at the first History of Programming Languages conference, she was the third programmer of the Mark II (and liked to be introduced as such). The first two programmers were Richard Milton Block and Robert Campbell. I'll edit the page to reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Espertus (talk • contribs) 01:29, 18 January 2007

I changed the ref to a {{cite book}}, and moved it to the first paragraph, which is where the correction and reference should have been made ... also deleted redundant second mention. --72.75.126.37 07:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I missed the first reference and am new to citing. Espertus 00:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Then why does this source credit her with writing the "first functional computer program"? --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:22, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Personal life

There's not much here on her personal life. Married? Kids? Lived at? Does anyone have any of that info? peterl 09:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That's in the article. Married in 1930, divorced 1945, no kids. But it's really not of much importance, either in her life or here. This is an encyclopedia, not a gossip magazine. T-bonham (talk) 05:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That's right. A person's personal life is of no value when trying to learn, understand, or appreciate that person's accomplishments. That's why the "biography" has never been considered to have any worth or value as a form of literature. 192.223.226.6 (talk) 13:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ooooh - Sarcasm; I love it. But, I also agree with 192.223.226.6 that information about how one has chosen to live their "personal" life is not simply gossipy, but can be seen to tell us a lot about what sorts of things that person found to be important (to them). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.23.148 (talk • contribs) 2009-04-20T18:17:06

From Fuller Ming (talk) 16:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC): I found a web page that said her husband died in 1945? Who said they divorced in 1945? Which fact is correct? I'm not a regular contributor to Wikipedia but I will correct it if I can validate which is true.

"...in 1930. That same year she married Vincent Foster Hopper, an English teacher and honors graduate from Princeton University. Although they separated in 1940 and got divorced in 1945, she always kept her ex-husband’s name, possibly because shortly after their divorce Vincent Hopper was killed in World War II. The Hoppers had no children." From: http://wvegter.hivemind.net/abacus/CyberHeroes/Hopper.htm

Anecdote - quotes

Is it possible to add this additional quote attributed to Grace Hopper?

"A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what a ship is built for."

Source: http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,21983270-5012506,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by PassingInTheNight (talk • contribs) 00:27, 6 August 2007

I've replaced the very recent (and somewhat indirect) source for this attribution with a journal citation from 1984. (I've also added the source to the quote on Wikiquote.) Thanks for the motivation to track this one down! ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

This "ship in a harbor" quote is also attributed to John A. Shedd in his 1928 publication "Salt from my Attic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lionel (talk • contribs) 14:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that her famous quote that says 'better to ask forgiveness' should be completed with/corrected to: "If it's a good idea, go ahead and do it. It is much easier to apologize than it is to get permission." I can't find a good reference but do see this more refined version all over the web. (vanFelius). —Preceding unsigned comment added by VanFelius (talk • contribs) 12:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Real speed of propagation of electromagnetic waves (which matters in computing) in her "nanoseconds" is about 0.66c (shielded copper), so the pieces should have been 20cm, not 30cm (appr. 1 foot) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.14.254.26 (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Replies: (1) Her "nanosecond" props were to demonstrate communication with satellites, so not actually through wires. They were just a "visual aid". (2) She was initially using them to explain things to generals and admirals, who probably had many other things on their minds: see Wittgenstein's ladder. :) -- Quiddity (talk) 18:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Original Navy Service

The section 'cobol' states that she 'later returned to the navy', but makes no mention of when she was first in the navy. Is there a story about that? If the info box is to be believed, she joined the navy in 1943 - why? It may have been during WW2, but I'm not aware that women were drafted into the services. (When I say 'why?' I don't been 'why would anyone be so daft?', I simply ask if there was a particular reason, like to work directly for the navy doing scientific research which couldn't be done as a civilian.)

The box seems to suggest that she was only out of the navy for 2 years between 1943 and 1986, how then, could she have worked as an employee for a bazillion different tech companies at the same time? Or was she a member of the naval reserve for the entire duration except for a few short periods of time? It seems disingenuous not to make the distinction, even if people in both are equally patriotic for being there.

Am I missing something? Gurkha (talk) 00:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gurkha here, can this ommission be corrected please. 218.185.19.242 (talk) 05:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Third -- I was about to mention the missing reference to original navy experience myself. Good to see my eyes are still working. 24.0.17.103 (talk) 16:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Kathleen Broome Williams' book is the source for the paragraph just added on Adm Hopper's WWII naval service. I think it answers your questions. Mhjohns (talk) 19:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Wilderness Years?

I *think* GH started working at DEC after I started there in August 1989 (it was announced in an internal newsletter: my only doubt is that it might have been an *old* newsletter). It was the first time I had heard of her and the second time was her death which only seemed a few months later. Does anyone have an accurate start date at DEC, because from the article it seems like she came directly from the Navy, when my half-memory would suggest it was three to five years later. 217.194.34.103 (talk) 14:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Bainbridge base in Maryland?

My father is career navy. He has some great stories about Hopper working with the Univac that was at a training base for enlisted men called Bainbridge. It was mothballed in 1958. Does anyone here know a military nostalgia magazine that might be interested in the stories? I asked the editor of the USAA insurance magazine and he didn't know of any. If there's another blog about Hopper I can't find it.Markgordonmaryland (talk) 15:32, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Husband Vincent Foster Hopper

I was researching the USS Hopper (DDG-70) and of course Adm. Hopper and ran across several accounts of her marriage, and family. Her sister, Mary Murray Westcote, was the ship's sponsor, and was present in 1997 for the commissioning.

I found a reference stating that her husband was in the English Dept at NYU for many years, and another reference which stated his name (above).

Findagrave.com has a Vincent Foster Hopper, of the right age, http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=hopper&GSfn=vincent&GSmn=foster&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GSob=n&GRid=11019742& who may be the husband, b. 1906. d.1976.

Someone above mentioned that biography should not be gossip, but accuracy is of interest too. I greatly admired Adm. Hopper, and am only interested in her tremendous contributions, and not as any criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jws (talk • contribs) 07:38, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's his grave; his obituary says he died 19 January 1976 at the age of 69. His survivors were his wife Mabel and his son David Whittaker, so he apparently remarried after his divorce from Grace Hopper in 1945. - Nunh-huh 02:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I knew Vincent Foster Hopper personally from 1958 until 1970. I am in contact with his son, David Whittaker Hopper to this day. I believe Grace Hopper's official military biography was the source of his supposed death in 1945. His remarriage was immediate, with his son being born in 1947. Along with being a Chairman of the English Dept. at NYU he also co-wrote a guide to English composition which you can still buy on Amazon or BN. He was an outstanding individual in his own right. I'll leave it to someone else to incorporate this information into the article. I inserted it several years ago, but someone has removed it and reinserted the incorrect date of his death (1945)).Marleysdad (talk) 01:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Another source that Vincent died in 1976: http://books.google.com/books?id=A4CRM16a54IC&lpg=PP1&dq=grace%20hopper&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false The following page notes that the "widowed in 1945" story has been repeated by sources as reputable as the New York Times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grubbiv (talk • contribs) 02:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

We now have a reference to Vincent Foster Hopper's NYTimes obituary, which is cited by Green-LaDuke. Can we consider this settled now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.148.122.100 (talk) 18:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Google Doodle

Interestingly, there is an error in the Google Doodle for Grace Hopper's birthday. The code that the doodle presents is this: SUBTRACT CurrentYear FROM BirthYear GIVING Age. A little thought shows that this is wrong. RomanSpa (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

(Some Hours Later): I notice that the code error has been fixed. The code now reads: SUBTRACT BirthYear FROM CurrentYear GIVING Age. RomanSpa (talk) 09:48, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Roman you mean they are not accounting for the gregorian calendar or cobol syntax? Also:

Subtracting BirthYear from CurrentYear does not always give the correct age. It only works when the current month and date is >= birth month and date

But at least it gives you a positive number. In any case, she was alright. I remember hearing her speak when she was up in 80s - only hope I live that long and still have half of her faculties.

Word by Word copy

i don't know who came first but a word by word match is unacceptable.

http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Grace_Hopper — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.199.13 (talk • contribs)

Because the website you linked say "Wikipedia" in the tab and then shows the wiki page, I think it's ok by CC-BY-SA. It's just showing the wiki page, not copying it and it's giving credit. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:08, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

What about http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1549963.Grace_Murray_Hopper ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.142.70.252 (talk) 18:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2013

1. To me, it's incorrect to use a comma here: "she was one of the first programmers of the Harvard Mark I computer, and developed the first compiler". The reason is the second part is a phrase and not a clause. I'm not sure if some people feel it's a matter of personal preference.

2. Sorry, I'm not sure if I should post here or on the Talk page. I was wondering if Vincent Hopper was a professor when Grace Hopper and he married in 1930. I've read that he was an English instructor (not necessarily a professor) and did not get his PhD until 1938. The article currently reads: "She was married to New York University professor Vincent Foster Hopper (1906–1976) from 1930 until their divorce in 1945."

Thanks. 69.136.64.26 (talk) 09:37, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: on (1), the rule is to use a comma if the second verb has a new (or restated) subject, or in a list of three or more verb phrases. On (2), can you provide reliable sources please? --Stfg (talk) 11:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2013 (2)

Okay, this time I noticed the instructions to provide a specific description of the edit request.

Please change "In 1943 during World War II," to "In 1943, during World War II," or "In 1943" or "In 1943,". I prefer one of the last two, but if you feel it's important to mention that it was during World War II, at least use a comma.

Thanks. 69.136.64.26 (talk) 09:44, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

 Done Yes, "during World War II" is parenthetic. Thanks. --Stfg (talk) 11:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Sentence Grammar Correction - COBOL Section

Within section "COBOL"

-- "Hopper's belief that programs should be written in a language that was close to English rather than in machine code or languages close to machine code (such as assembly language) was captured in the new business language, and COBOL would go on to be the most ubiquitous business language to date."

++ "Hopper's belief that programs should be written in a language that was close to English rather than in machine code (or languages close to machine code such as assembly language) was captured in the new business language, and COBOL would go on to be the most ubiquitous business language to date."

Sounds a little better, as the previous or original sentence version almost encounters a run-on sentence with the additional "or" and then the mention of another language? (Could also likely use commas instead of parenthesis, but debatable as it seems people tend to dislike discerning too many commas.) --roger (talk) 12:04, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

It isn't really a run-on sentence (no verb), but I agree it's clearer. In fact we can move the opening parenthesis even further to the left for even greater clarity, which I've done. By the way, note how I've redacted your post a little: ++ and -- aren't wiki markup, so you don't need the nowiki tags, and we don't generally use <br> tags in running prose. Instead we use a blank line as a paragraph break. (<br> is used more in tables and infoboxes.) --Stfg (talk) 14:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Awards and Recognition

Grace Hopper is enshrined in the Engineering and Science Hall of Fame. http://eshalloffame.org/enshrinees

Awards and Recognition

Grace Hopper is enshrined in the Engineering and Science Hall of Fame. http://eshalloffame.org/enshrinees — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.9.34.178 (talk) 16:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2013

The reference to Hopper's Google Doodle should include a link/reference to the actual Google Doodle, which can be found here: http://www.google.com/doodles/grace-hoppers-107th-birthday. Wgrundlingh (talk) 17:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

•  Done --AdmrBoltz 17:44, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2013

Awards and recognition

Please add "Grace Hopper Hall is a residents-only recreational facility and houses the Baldwin Park Property Owner Association at 1913 Meeting Place in Orlando, Florida. Baldwin Park is the site of the former Orlando Naval Training Center."

For reference, see

RGButterfield (talk) 20:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)