Talk:Anita Sarkeesian

Bias in Reception section

I'm in the middle of looking into controversial internet figures, and this is one I had in mind. I was surprised to see no negative criticisms mentioned in the Reception section of the page, which screams bias to me.

Seeing as this is an article about an internet blogging personality and taking into consideration that more than a handful of the sources in the article come from blogs, then I think it would be appropriate to mention the criticisms she draws from other bloggers. Blocking any negative criticism on the section seems to be extremely one-sided considering the way the information was gathered: blogs, Youtube videos, etc. and contradicts Wikipedia's neutral stance on its articles.

Two possible solutions I can think of to this are: A) remove all blog material from the references section and their respective material or B) add the criticism from other bloggers to the Reception section. The first option may leave a stripped page, again, since this is an article about an internet blogger. So, I believe the second option to be the most viable. To cut it short, the criticisms could be lumped together as generalized criticisms towards her material, in the same style as many articles concerning video games or movies. Sources for these can be found easily, as this is a very controversial person.

Some examples I came up with through a Google search of "Anita Sarkeesian criticism":

1. A petition for news organizations to acknowledge constructive criticisms of her reasoning:

   [link removed due to wkipedia censors, will be first result of the above search]

2. Destructoid article:

   http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml

3. Various written blogs, including these two examples:

   http://www.filibustercartoons.com/index.php/2013/08/05/another-critique-of-anita-sarkeesians-ongoing-tropes-vs-women-video-series-with-focus-now-being-placed-on-the-third-damsels-in-distress-episode/

   http://www.pixlbit.com/blog/3652/with_regards_to_anna_sarkeesians_white_knights

4. Various videos blogs, including these two popular examples:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohmannospaces (talk • contribs) 23:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll take Option C - Point out which "blog" sources currently used in the article aren't reliable. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

1. This is an article about a scholar of popular culture, not "an Internet blogger".

2. Even when talking about bloggers, which we are not, blogs do not thereby become reliable sources. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:25, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Orange Mike, seriously, a _scholar_? She haven't put out anything for peer review, thus she is an internet opinion vlogger/blogger, nothing more. Yes, I agree blogs under current wikipedia rules aren't RS. Nosepea68 (talk) 08:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

When reliable sources appear with negative criticism of the subject, then they will appear in pagespace. Until that time (and I have exactly zero doubts that such criticism will be brought rapidly to this talkspace for assessment), I see no reason to adapt (to suit a reader or group of readers) Wikipedia's policies as they regard sourcing for BLP's for any contentious material. What "screams" at an individual reader (that reader's personal assessment of bias) must be weighed appropriately against policy and guideline intended to keep this encyclopedia sustainable. I have confidence that over time the reception section of this article will reflect the consensus of reliable sources, including significant minority views (whichever those turn out to be). BusterD (talk) 02:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

At the risk of piling on, yes, please bring up any currently used sources that are potentially unreliable and we'll have a look at them. I'm interested to hear how this supposed sourcing issue plays out in the "reception" section, as it's easily the best cited part of the entire article. Its citations include a piece from Newsweek, an honest-to-god review from a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, and another review from the major newspaper Boston Globe. And of course, no, we're not inserting something from a web comic or the community blog section of Pixlbit.com just because someone somewhere doesn't like what the real sources say.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I do not have any bias - I am looking into controversial internet figures as a project; whatever you may think, she fits the bill, which is why I find it weird and frankly biased to not find any negative criticisms in the Reception section. As far as the sources go, I was referring more at the sources around the article -- including a blog from an author who, looking through her post history, appears to have a bias in the subject covered by Sarkeesian's blogging -- as sources for Reception are seldom scientific or require special titles. However, if you would like a source that is at or above the same level of reliability as its would-be peers in the Reception section, I again encourage you to take a look at the Destructoid article I mentioned in the OP. It is a gaming website (akin to IGN) and the article was posted by a games journalist (again, akin to the same IGN article referenced).

Edit - Upon looking through more of the articles already used as references, Eördögh's ReadWrite article is bringing up a criticism from the crowd involving her handling of the money earned from Kickstarter. While this is already mentioned earlier in the Wikipedia article, it should also be mentioned in the Reception section as a criticism, as Eördögh herself calls it a criticism.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohmannospaces (talk • contribs) 03:20, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Destructoid has been previously discussed and dismissed as holding "marginal" and "situational" reliability in relation to video games, but lacking reliability standing to support a BLP subject. All that aside, the Destructoid article was published before the first video released in the Kickstarter-supported series, so has no relationship to series reception whatsoever. BusterD (talk) 04:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Your claim that Helen Lewis has a bias is neither here nor there - she is a journalist who writes for an unimpeachable reliable source. Your perception of her opinion has no relevance to Wikipedia.

We already mention Eördögh's claim regarding her handling of the money in discussing the production of the videos - "the delay led some critics to question how she was using the money" - thus mentioning it in the Reception section would be entirely redundant. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:31, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Then would it not make sense to have that source placed on the Reception section, seeing as it is pertaining to some of her criticism? For a user such as myself, who is looking exactly for the reactions of a person's work, would it not be more efficient to read that criticism in the Reception section rather than potentially miss it in the Video Series section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohmannospaces (talk • contribs) 04:43, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ohmannospaces, please remember to sign your comments with four tildas (~~~~). It would be helpful if you'd say directly what you're talking about. You seem to be talking about Helen Lewis, who has 3 pieces here cited a total of 5 times (none in the reception section). Lewis is a professional journalist and an editor at the New Statesman, and she appears to have written pretty extensively on feminism, internet culture, and such in that and other reliable publications.

This source is being used to cite two rather obvious claims: that Sarkeesian's experience led to discussion in the media, and that media sources documented the array of harassment (the piece actually does this). The piece is listed in newstatesman.com's blog section, however it appears to be what are called WP:NEWSBLOGs - a column that can be an acceptable source on Wikipedia, not some random yahoo's personal website. Caution needs to be used for newsblogs, but given Lewis's background and the fact that these are pretty uncontroversial claims, it looks all right to me.

This piece also from newstatesman.com is being used to cite the (again) obvious claim that this Wikipedia article was vandalized with porn. The claim is also backed up by a source from Digital Trends and reality. Again, it's in the blog section, but looks to be an acceptable newsblog that's not being used to say anything remotely arguable.

This piece from The New York Times is used twice. It's cited for the claim that Sarkeesian was emailed images of herself being raped by game characters (again, this isn't arguable), and for the claim that Sarkeesian says that the harassers "gamified misogyny" by, well, turning their misogynous harassment into a game. The piece is in the Times' blog section but it's actually part of the paper's "ArtsBeat" feature. It should be acceptable to use by any standard.

That Destructoid piece has been discussed repeatedly before and the consensus is that it's not reliable. See archives 2 and 3 for extensive discussion. Essentially, the these guidelines have determined Destructoid to be only situationally reliable, and this isn't one of those situations. It's one guy's op-ed in his community blog - effectively a self-published source, which are not acceptable in biographies of living persons (unless written by that person). I'm sorry, but it's laughable to argue that it's remotely "at or above" the level of reviews from a peer-reviewed journal and a major newspaper.--Cúchullain ^t/c 04:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

As BusterD alludes to, the "Reception" section is actually for the video series, not general criticism of Sarkeesian. So essentially everything I just said about the Destructoid piece is moot; it wouldn't be appropriate even if it were reliable. As for Eördögh, she's commenting on the production and costs, not anything about the videos' content; it's also not appropriate for that section. And it would be redundant to say the same thing twice. I'm actually of the opinion that that source isn't relevant or useful and should be removed.--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I apologize on the formatting - I signed up for Wikipedia to point this out, so I'm very new and did not think I'd be discussing it for this long.

Unfortunately, the sections you refered to have been edited out. I am saying that the Destructoid article is no less reliable than the IGN article, which is referenced in the same Reception section and used (in its second appearance) as a type of reaction Sarkeesian has received. This is not mentioning the fact that, while the IGN article does not explicitly say it, it is structured and told the same way a blog would, which is the reason I say it is no better than the Destructoid article.

Furthermore, I would to point out that the author of the IGN article, Paul Dean, is a freelance writer, in contrast to the author of the Destructoid article, Chris Carter, who is a "Reviews Director" and works directly for the company, as detailed in his profile and on the site's front page. This, added to the fact that Destructoid is accredited by Metacritic and the clause in the Wikipedia entry you linked to saying that Destructoid "may be reliable, but only if the author can be established as such." This reaction to one of her videos, again, is from a paid employee of the organization, which I would say makes him reliable in that he's not a Joe playing Midnight Sonata on his keyboard, but instead, someone who is paid to give his opinions on everything surrounding video games.

In short: if the IGN article can be considered reliable enough to be mention in the Reception section solely for its semantics on its publishing (i.e., not explicitly calling it a blog post), then I see absolutely no reason to exclude the Destructoid article from that same section.

Furthermore, I disagree with your conclusions of the article, as it does not attack nor criticize Sarkeesian herself; the author himself says so in the early paragraphs. The article tries to offer counterarguments to some of the issues Sarkeesian presented in her tropes videos. This is not really up to interpretation, please read through a section of the article, particularly one that is preceded by a picture. The author quotes Sarkeesian and presents his argument.

And, since the money comes directly from a Kickstarter projected founded for her video series, then I think a criticism of her quietness in regards to where she is spending what is essentially the budget for the video series, is relevant to the latter.

Ohmannospaces (talk) 05:56, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Although there are concerns about the reliability of the Destructoid piece in regard to criticism of this area, if we ignore that we still have the problem raised above that the Destructoid article is not a response to the videos, but only to an interview she gave prior to the videos being released. Therefore we can't use it as criticism of the video series. - Bilby (talk) 06:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify - "since the money comes directly from a Kickstarter projected founded for her video series, then I think a criticism of her quietness in regards to where she is spending what is essentially the budget for the video series, is relevant to the latter" - this may be of interest to some people, but it is not of "interest" to wikipedia because it has no relevance. As and when she issues a full account of what she has used her funds on, we will include it. What we cannot include is opinion from third parties uninvolved in the process saying things like "where did the money go?". That is the dictionary definition of JAQ'ing off.

Further, when looking into the Destructoid piece - his opinion on her opinion is not valid. The most we could say is "X disagreed". This, however, would be undue weight for the Destructoid piece. Lots of people disagree every day, it doesn't make their opinions on their blogs notable for inclusion on Anita Sarkeesians wikipedia article any more than every criticism from Rush Limbaugh (a far more notable critic) should appear against Barack Obama.

If you are honestly researching why Anita Sarkeesian is controversial - you are in the wrong place. Wikipedia is not here to provide interpretative analysis. It can only report on that analysis when it is presented by reliable sources. Try RationalWiki which has a far more lax inclusion level. Koncorde (talk) 08:26, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Ohmannospaces, you're all over the place. It seems most of the many things you've brought up have been covered. We've established that (1). barring any unidentified issues, the Helen Lewis articles seem to be reliable. (2). Per previous consensus, the Destructoid piece is not reliable. (3). The "Reception" section is for the video series and thus only contains, well, reception of the video series. Even if they were reliable, the Destructoid blog op-ed and the Eördögh piece are not suitable for that section.

Of the other things, what we haven't established is whether the IGN source or the Eördögh piece are reliable. I have no opinion on IGN; for what it's worth WP:VG/RS says it's generally reliable for video game topics if the author is. I'm of the opinion that the Eördögh source is irrelevant and should be removed, as it's coming from a blog site and there's no indication why her opinion is a significant viewpoint on this topic.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I propose that the fork Tropes vs. Women in Video Games be merged back into the main article here. It shouldn't have been created in the first place; it was initially created by a single-purpose account for the purpose of introducing negative material about Sarkeesian. It was subsequently cleaned up, however now it's entirely redundant with the relevant sections in this article and there haven't been any substantial changes in over a month.
As of today, there simply isn't enough coverage of the series itself in reliable sources to justify keeping a separate article. In a vacuum, the coverage that exists for the video series may be sufficient to scrape by the notability threshold, but at this point it says nothing that isn't covered here. Literally every source for the video series discusses it in the context of, or along with, coverage of the harassment. Even the two best ones ( this and Nate Carpenter's scholarly review) both devote substantial space to the harassment.
Tellingly, the Nate Carpenter review isn't even included in the fork. Keeping the fork just results in duplicating what's covered here, in an inferior way. I previously suggested a merge here, which seemed to have consensus, but it was reverted. Hence this discussion. Cúchullain ^t/c 21:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support as nominator--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support the videos have not garnered any particular commentary from notable sources. Sarkeesian and the Kickstarter events are notable, the videos less so. Discussing the videos should be done in the context of Sarkeesian until they have achieved notability outside of Sarkeesians own notoriety. Koncorde (talk) 23:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support - I accepted the AFC in the hopes it would quell the controversy, but all it did was break it in half. My mistake, and a merger is appropriate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support - no notable sources have commented on the videos yet. DonQuixote (talk) 14:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support - if the series acquires a separate notability in the future, then and only then it could be re-established. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:51, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• CommentOppose. I have previously stated I opposed such a merge, but not wanting to seem troublesome, I'll not oppose in this procedure. I believe the series has received sufficient coverage to establish its notability; if this BLP pagespace did not exist, the series would deserve its own article. The recent arrival of scholarly review demonstrates that in at least a narrow field of study, Ms. Sarkeesian's as yet incomplete efforts are drawing the attention of the academic community. BusterD (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Further comment. 1) At the risk of sounding troublesome, I take issue with any characterization of the Tropes article as POVFORK. REDUNDANTFORK may apply, but the Tropes article is well sourced and neutral in tone, and contains detail specific to the series I think inappropriate to a BLP. While originated by a SPA, that editor worked within AfC, accepting feedback from some who are participating here. 2) I personally felt the application of semi-protection of Tropes was premature; the page had experienced exactly two edits in the previous six days. As an involved admin, Cúchullain might have taken the issue to RPP, where I suspect protection would have been declined. 3) In an article on the person, a very high standard of RS is required, but in an article on the series, a broader range of situational sources might be used. So long as the series is covered only in the BLP, sources we might consider using on the video series article cannot be applied. 4) A very cogent argument could be made that because of WP:BLP1E, we should treat the EVENT as the focus of coverage, and eliminate the BLP altogether. 5) If queried, I would prefer option 2 below. I believe we should merge information and sources (recently applied only to the reception section of this page) to the Tropes subpage. BusterD (talk) 14:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

1). I myself didn't characterize it as a POVFORK, but it is certainly a fork, as it just copies material that's much better presented here already. 2). Not really a conversation for this merge discussion, but I was extending the protection that was placed here to the fork after the page was hit with a number of disruptive edits from new/unregistered accounts that week. I'm always open to discussing my edits and admin actions if anyone has a problem with them. 3) Material on living people is always going to be restricted by WP:BLP, wherever it's located. Material that focuses on the work itself will have different standards at either/both articles 4). True. Though this article existed before the controversy (and was part of the controversy).--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:59, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The NYTimes source linked by the ip editor in the thread below ([1]) demonstrates (as part of a larger trend) the impact of the video series, as opposed to focusing on the controversy or the series creator. The author Chris Suellentrop feels compelled to raise the thesis of one of Sarkeesian's videos with a notable game designer. BusterD (talk) 04:04, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

• Merge to Tropes vs. Women in Video Games. The problem this article has had in the past is that it wasn't allowed to expand, with material being removed as "too much detail for a biography" even when it was related to the videos, not the person. Everybody agrees that the main coverage from the press was about one event, the harassment associated to the Kickstarter campaign, and the videos created from it; this makes a biography article a coatrack for the incident, making it a not well balanced biography, which is problematic under WP:BLP. If the main material is about the harassment, let's focus the article on that and stop pretending it's a biography when less than 20% of the content is biographical. Diego (talk) 05:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

  Comment - I've delineated below the alternate options we have to reorganize the articles while fixing the repetition of content that we have now. I've also expanded the merge tag (it was "merge to Sarkeesian") to cover all alternative outcomes. Diego (talk) 05:58, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I restored the hat notes so that editors can see where the discussion is happening and know what the proposal actually is. Participants can still weigh in however they want without obscuring the proposal.

Part of the problem, I think, is that there's not agreement that the videos themselves are particularly notable. Most sources continue to be about the harassment that occurred largely before there even were any videos. There are actually pretty few sources on the series itself, and none that separate them from discussion of Sarkeesian and the harassment she faced.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:53, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Despite being started by a "single purpose account", the webseries article was neutral and reliable sourced. The series is notable in itself, and merging its contents back here - such as the episode list, would further push the parent article into WP:UNDUE territory. This is not how summary style works. - hahnchen 05:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

  Between moving everything to Tropes vs. Women in Video Games and keeping two separate articles, which option would you prefer? I don't care much either way, as long as everything is not put back again into Anita Sarkeesian for the same reasons of UNDUE weight. Diego (talk) 06:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support - it's a textbook WP:POVFORK - Alison ^❤ 07:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Please, can you clarify which option for the merge do you support, Option 1, option 2 or option 3? Diego (talk) 08:42, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

• Merge to Tropes vs. Women in Video Games. For some reason, being born "circa 1984" makes me think we don't really care about her, but are really only interested in the video series and the reaction to it. A way I think we could justifiably keep both is if we did Diego Moya's option 2, but expanded this article to include her work outside of youtube: ie, facebook, tumblr, twitter, and the various speech's she's given. That would be my second choice, I suppose.--Hamilton-wiki (talk) 14:23, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Hamilton-wiki, I think one thing to consider is that most sources deal with the controversy and its aftermath, which was something that happened before there ever was a video series. This article existed even before that point (and the vandalism of it was part of the controversy). There are actually only a few sources for the video series as such, and none that discuss it without discussing the harassment.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:59, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Cúchullain, right now the opening section is five sentences, four of them are directly about TvW, the Kickstarter, or the reaction. The main article is 14 paragraphs and a quote block, 11 of which are about TvW, the Kickstarter, or the reaction, and of the three that are not about one of those topics, 1 is still about her youtube channel. 87% of this article is about TvW, the Kickstarter or the reaction. There was an article about her before it, and her article talks about other things, but the overwhelming majority of the article is not about her, but a specific project of hers. --Hamilton-wiki (talk) 18:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Right, but the discussion isn't really about the project, it's about harassment Sarkeesian herself faced when she started (or really just announced) the project. For example this book (which I'll add as as source at some point) discusses the harassment against Sarkeesian but doesn't even include the name "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games", and barely mentions Kickstarter.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Neutrality issues can be addressed within the article. Her series is actually getting a lot of coverage in reliable sources. I think there is more than enough basis for a separate article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:41, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to ask all who oppose on the grounds of the video series being notable, to provide the notability. Currently there is no support for a separate article other than by synthesising or ret-conning commentary after the fact. Koncorde (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you see how the bulk of the Sarkeesian article is on the video series? That's how it's notable. The biography already gives strong undue weight to the series, and now editors are arguing it should be even stronger. - hahnchen 21:15, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

But the bulk of the material isn't about the video series, it's about the harassment Sarkeesian herself faced, largely before there even was a video series.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The development of the series should be in the series article. - hahnchen 21:53, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, but I don't consider harassment the author faced before the development of the series, to be part of the development of the series, and I don't think the sources describe it that way. It's more relevant at an article on the person, I'd think. At any rate there are plenty of sources indicating she's notable for other things, such as her public speaking career.[2][3][4]--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Here: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]. I expect more such coverage will emerge as each new video is released.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

@Koncorde And I'd like to ask all who support the merge on the grounds that most coverage centers around the harassment: if there's a single article, wouldn't it make sense to repurpose it and put the main focus in this particular event (thus following WP:BLP1E), instead of framing it as a biography? Diego (talk) 08:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Moving to an article on the controversy was proposed and handily rejected earlier this year. My opinion is that moving the article to one on the series isn't preferable because: (1) harassment Sarkeesian suffered after announcing the project to fund the videos is better suited for an article on her than on the videos she eventually produced, and (2) that this article already covers a lot of other, well cited things that would not be appropriate for an article on the series, such as the Femininist Frequency blog and her speaking career. Sarkeesian is definitely notable and her article already includes material on the series. The reverse wouldn't be true.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:29, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

All that still doesn't address the problem of neutrality we've identified because of the undue weight given to the harassment incident in her biography. The current structure is like saying "what's all that there's to know about Anita Sarkeesian? She was harrassed!!!"; you can't defend this structure - even if it was an important event in her career, this episode is not the single thing defining her life, and shouldn't be presented as such. In fact, none of the supporters has addressed that imbalance; I suspect that's because it's reinforced by your arguments about the available references being almost exclusively about the harassment, which makes this a WP:ONEEVENT article. Biographical details outside of the incident are almost non-existent; if there's not enough coverage outside of the harassment campaign to support an article on the series, there's much less to support a biography.

WP:BLP1E makes it crystal clear that in such cases the focus must be on the event, not the person; and WP:BLP, that in case of doubt you have to err on the side of caution and protecting the person - you cannot keep an imbalanced biography where a single event occupies 80% of the available content; but that's exactly what this merger proposal suggests. The only acceptable outcomes per WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE are having a short summary section in the biography covering the harassment and the video series, or making these the primary focus of the article. (To quote the notability guideline, "editors are advised to be cognizant of issues of weight and to avoid the creation of unnecessary pseudo-biographies, especially of living people.") Diego (talk) 17:06, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

The article existed prior to the Kickstarter harassment as discussed in the AfD, so WP:BLP1E/WP:ONEEVENT has no bearing. WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV say that we represent viewpoints proportionally as they appear in reliable sources, not that the viewpoints be neutral at all. The sources primarily focus on a series of events but the subject is otherwise notable, so of course we're going to follow the sources. We don't fork articles simply because someone gets more attention for something than they had previously. Woodroar (talk)

That's a non-sequitur that has been repeated too many times. The article that existed before the harassment incident didn't have 80% of its content dedicated to a single event. A balanced biography based on the sources not related to the harassment would be about one paragraph long. And we do fork articles whenever a subset of the content gets too large in proportion to the main topic -there's even a guideline for that, WP:SPLIT. What this article needs is a WP:summary that reduces the weight of the harassment in the BLP, not a re-join that increases it. Diego (talk)

(edit conflict) Nobody disputes that article existed prior to the Kickstarter controversy event; that the article existed doesn't automatically connote notability. If the subject article had been nominated for deletion in May 2012, it would have faced tough going (certainly not a snow keep). I (and clearly others) believe that the subject is known for the event primarily. I can certainly accept an argument that the subject doesn't meet all three exclusionary criteria as listed in BLP1E. For example, as a media critic, she seeks media attention, so she's not low profile. However, as a guiding principle, BLP1E suggests that the pedia might be better served if the page was on the event and not the person subject. BusterD (talk) 18:31, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. The vast bulk of the sources focus on the controversy surrounding the Kickstarter campaign (many of those news sources in real time, as the event was occurring). As mentioned in Sarkeesian's AFD procedure, WP:NOTE says "In some cases, notability of a controversial entity (such as a book) could arise either because the entity itself was notable, or because the controversy was notable as an event—both need considering." The AFD (also held during the height of the controversy) concluded Sarkeesian was notable, the arguments largely centering on the controversy. I'd argue that the announcement of the series, negative cultural reaction to the announcement (from members of the online community), Kickstarter contributions as backlash to the negative reaction, reporting on the whole affair, most of the media coverage centers on the event, not the individual. If Sarkeesian's notability was birthed by the controversy, it would be hard to argue that series notability was NOT birthed by the same controversy. If we didn't have this BLP, we'd certainly have an article on the series. The controversy weighs so ponderously, no responsible review of the series material could ignore the controversy which drew cultural attention to it. The Carpenter review linked by Cúchullain (and generously shared via email by that user) consists of two pages, eight paragraphs; the author uses the first two paragraphs describing the controversy/backstory, but the remaining 1.5 pages are devoted entirely to Sarkeesian's assertions and views as expressed in the first video. This single source goes a long way to demonstrate that the series is being noticed by academe, and deserves its own pagespace. BusterD (talk) 22:12, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose My stance on this should be bloody obvious. Sorry for my disrespect of admin authority Cúchullain, but I seriously doubt your neutrality on this subject. Nosepea68 (talk) 07:21, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll add some reasons why I oppose:

Her harassment was "on demand", just see video 27 March, 2013 [14] starting at ~1:12:48 she explains how she handles internet trolls. Prior to her Kicstarter video she had very strong anti-harassment policies in place on her Youtube channel (moderation and blocking used) and suddenly when she made a promo video to fund her video series the comments were opened for just _one_ video.

My intention was (still is) to present her "study" as it is now after all the promises she made for a mere $6,000. And I am anticipating reliable sources to tear her "study" to a million pieces.

I can see issues that would support merger, but I see issues keeping these two articles separate stronger.

I view some of the RS used in BLP article as biased, making the BLP article biased.

This BLP page should have been deleted long before she became a notable person.

I suspect the origin of the BLP is closely related to Sarkeesian.

For deleting both articles I'd strongly support it! BLP without a birth date? Even though the name of the person is somewhat unique.

Adding; See what she did? Instead of doing something constructive we're stuck on a petty debate on what can be told about a living person!

Nosepea68 (talk) 11:27, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

There's so much wrong with the comment above I feel compelled to write a response. Single Purpose Account User:Nosepea68 is in no position to judge the neutrality of other editors. That Sarkeesian's harassment was "on demand" isn't proved by the source provided, is original synthesis and is entirely irrelevant to this merge conversation. What the above user anticipates and suspects is likewise irrelevant and somewhat revealing of the user's negative personal bias. User's views on bias and birth dates are also not appropriate for this narrow discussion. And the last comment about "what she did" is way over the top. We're having this discussion over something User:Nosepea68 did (created a spinout/fork), not over something the subject did. Unrelated troll-like rants like those above tend to discredit those making them and demonstrate points made by those asserting "merge". BusterD (talk) 14:15, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it's on me that I should have worded "I add my motivation why I oppose". But, why call me an SPA user? Then I must ask what's required to be able to judge editor's or RS neutrality? I wrote "on demand" because if she had comments and ratings disabled on her KS promo video like she had on her other videos there would not have been any harassment, right (Anita's favourite reasoning word)? Yes, falls under category OR and synthesis, but do editors have to stop thinking when explaining their reasons/motivation? And I'm not supposing that should be put into the article. I would like to see a birth date of any person in wikipedia, not just Sarkeesian. And about the author who created the original BLP for Sarkeesian I used what you call OR and looked at that user's contribs, talk page and history. I admit I have made mistakes in my wiki editing and quite frankly will continue to do them unless I get blocked/banned, it's a learning process. I think I need to stop here before Cuchu do block/ban me with notaforum-hammer. Nosepea68 (talk) 15:09, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

You'd really better follow your own advice. You've been warned enough times already to stop these disparaging rants against in this WP:BLP.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:25, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support merge to this article. It shouldn't have been split in the first place and now it's redundant: the current sources are primarily about the person, not the series. Once we have sufficient references about the series itself, then we can split it. Woodroar (talk) 08:14, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

• Except what you just said is wrong. We have numerous sources discussing the series itself, not merely her or the harassment. See: [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20].--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:39, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support. It is a limited series of videos, and not notable to merit its own article. --Soetermans. T / C 09:21, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support Agree with Soetermans; the series is not notable enough on its own. Peter ^Isotalo 18:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support per reasonings by Soetermans and Cuchullain. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
• Recommend option 2 below (two separate articles). There are essentially three aspects covered by the sources: her biography, her video series, and (mainly) the harassment in reaction to it. But because there's more coverage about the harassment than about the rest, putting everything into one article would create the incorrect impression that she's most notable for being harassed. Accordingly, the series and the reaction to it should be treated as a subarticle per WP:SS; there seem to be sufficient sources for independent notability.  Sandstein  09:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
  • The first general rule of WP:Summary style is "[s]ections of long articles should be spun off into their own articles". This article is currently at 9 kB of prose. Obviously not long. Peter ^Isotalo 01:43, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

• That would be a size split. The second rule of summary style is that a subtopic with sufficient substance, even if closely related (see content split, WP:PAGEDECIDE), can have its own article (verbatim: "In shorter articles, if one subtopic has much more text than another subtopic, that may be an indication that that subtopic should have its own page, with only a summary presented on the main page.") It's clear that the section about the video series is much longer than any other section in the biography article, which should trigger the "undue weight" clause that merits a split. Diego (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose merge: clearly separate subject with sufficient texts and references. As several people mentioned, WP:Summary style is a standard way to handle content forking of overlapping subjects. - Altenmann >t 05:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - each article's subject is notable in its own right. ~ JoshDuffMan (talk) 05:38, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Possible structures for the content

There are several alternative ways to structure the existing content that avoid the current duplicity.

• Option 1: put everything at Anita Sarkeesian

  Everything from Tropes vs. Women in Video Games is merged to the corresponding section here.

• Option 2: keep two separate articles

  At Anita Sarkeesian place "Background" and "Feminist Frequency" sections (about 280 words), and a short section for "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" written in summary style (keeping it under 300 words to make the biography balanced overall).

  The current "Kickstarter campaign and subsequent harassment" and "Video series" sections (about 1150 words) are moved to Tropes vs. Women in Video Games.

• Option 3: put everything at Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

• "Background" and "Feminist Frequency" sections are moved to a short "Anita Sarkeesian" biographic section.

Let's discuss the benefits and drawbacks of each option. If you have more options to suggest, put them right below this comment. Diego (talk) 05:58, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The merge proposal is to merge Tropes vs. Women in Video Games into Anita Sarkeesian (your option 1). The other options aren't part of the proposal and can be discussed if there's no consensus for the actual proposal.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:30, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Another source

I'm not sure if this source will be useful to this page or not but I saw this woman and her video series mentioned in Sunday's New York Times print edition. The article was entitled "In the Footsteps of Lara Croft" by Chris Suellentrop. Here is the web link: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/arts/video-games/chris-suellentrop-on-the-year-in-video-games.html --50.0.164.142 (talk) 03:14, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the good eyes. The article has refers to the impact of several 2013 events, one of which is the release of Sarkeesian's first four videos, plus one paragraph summarizing the history and recommending the first four videos. This is another source which puts forward the significance of the video series, as opposed to the controversy (which gets one sentence). Suellentrop asserts the videos: "are essential viewing for anyone interested in video games"... BusterD (talk) 03:54, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Going forward

The merge discussion has closed with the result that Anita Sarkeesian and the Tropes vs. Women in Video Games fork will be kept as separate articles. While I'm disappointed with this result, being as a shoddy fork created by a disruptive single-purpose account will remain on Wikipedia, it's more important we move forward to give the best encyclopedic coverage we can at both pages. In fact, I think even those of us who preferred keeping the material at one article will see there are some advantages to the approach. At this point, it's time to get to work on the fork - it needs a lot of it.
The first step will be improving and updating the the Tropes... article, as again, it currently just repeats information that's already in the main article, but in a noticeably worse, out of date fashion. The reception section needs to be entirely overhauled and some material, such as on Sarkeesian's speaking engagements, don't need to be there at all. After that we can determine whether rewrites to the relevant sections of this article (or others) would be useful. Hopefully everyone who argued that the fork should be kept separate will devote some of their time to cleaning it up.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd really like to follow the approach of WP:SUMMARY and move to the other article most of the content directly related to the production and description of the video series - thus merging the content that was updated here with the outdated version there, and eliminating the redundancy. I don't know what to do exactly with the content about the Kickstarter campaign and harassment - it could either be split between the two articles, or kept here and reorganized in several sections (one for the harassment, another one for the reactions of the press). Diego (talk) 21:18, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

That will probably be a good approach. I think we should keep the bulk of the harassment material here, and include as much of it at the fork as necessary to give a good encyclopedic background for the series. More sources on Sarkeesian and her experience have appeared, including at least two books and several journal articles that discuss her in some detail. These sections, as well as the response by the media and academics, is due for an overhaul. Additionally, I think ultimately there will be a separate section here for such things as the media response to the harassment and Sarkeesian's speaking career, and perhaps some additional sections at the other article depending on what is published for the video series.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Online Harassment Campaign

Harassment Campaign ? Is there possibly a better way to word this ?Scatach (talk) 18:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)