Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

"Player representation by club"

Further opinions on the addition of sections like this in FIFA World Cup squads, by Barryjjoyce (talk · contribs), would be welcome. GiantSnowman 15:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

It is already added to the 2011 AFC Asian Cup squads page. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

The flag icons hurt my eyes and probably falls afoul of some sort of accessibility guideline. It's interesting but not especially necessary to understanding the topic. Hack (talk) 09:14, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

@Barryjjoyce: your comments would be appreciated, otherwise I intend to remove the content again based on this discussion. GiantSnowman 12:47, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Do other sources typically break down the squads in this way? If not, neither should we. – PeeJay 12:48, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

IF this is to be included we should definately not use all those flags in "Player representation by club"-section. It is just confusing for the eye to look at that mess. QED237 (talk) 12:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: Thanks for raising this issue for discussion, and for pinging me. These "player representation" sections appear in squad articles for several tournaments — World Cup, AFC Asian Cup, the Euro, and others. And it's not just a Footy thing — international tournaments from other sports, such as the Rugby World Cup, also have them. These sections serve a useful function in that they provide some summary statistics regarding the players, leagues, and clubs. Various media articles such as this one discuss the same topic — how many players from which leagues are playing on World Cup squads. I don't detect any persuasive arguments and certainly nothing approaching consensus in support of your proposal to erase these sections from the World Cup squads and possibly other various football tournament squads articles. I think this discussion is headed for a no consensus close.

One issue where there does appear to be a consensus is on the overuse of flags. I have no objection to an editor toning down the use of flags, at least from the "player representation by club" part of the section. I'll even volunteer to do that myself, although I will wait a day or two before doing that to see if anyone objects. Barryjjoyce (talk) 01:29, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Would the following table be an improvement over the current version of the table? There are fewer flags, less visual clutter, and easier to quickly identify the clubs and leagues that are supplying the most players. I'll wait for feedback from other editors before making the change in the article itself. Barryjjoyce (talk) 02:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Players	England	Spain	Italy	Germany	France	Holland	Other UEFA	Other Regions
13		Barcelona
12	Chelsea Liverpool
11				Bayern Munich
10	Arsenal Tottenham Hotspur	Real Madrid C.F.	Internazionale				Panathinaikos
9			Juventus	Wolfsburg		Ajax
8	Portsmouth		Udinese
7	Everton Manchester City	Valencia	Milan	Hamburg Stuttgart			Benfica	April 25
6				Bayer Leverkusen Werder Bremen	Lyon	Twente	Porto	Olimpia
5	Fulham West Ham United Wigan Athletic Manchester United	Sevilla	Napoli Roma		AS Monaco Marseille Valenciennes	AZ	Galatasaray Basel	Guadalajara Motagua Wellington Phoenix Amrokgang

I don't think we need the old format, and I don't think we need the new format. It smacks of WP:OR and WP:NOTSTATS. If there is a reliable source which says "8 of the France squad play at Y club" or "7 of the Germany squad play club football in Y country" then we should have prose that reflects that, but nothing else. GiantSnowman 10:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Several articles discuss the makeup of the national squads. For example, this article discusses the makeup of the U.S. squad: ("Seventeen players are based in Europe, with just four from Major League Soccer and two from Mexican clubs. Of the European group, eight play in England, three in Germany, two in Scotland, and one each in Denmark, France, Italy and Norway.") and this article discusses which English teams contribute how many players to the various World Cup squads.

As for your suggestion that the information be in prose and not tables, I am not aware of any such requirement on wikipedia. Indeed, the WP:NOTSTATS policy suggests that summary tables are encouraged ("consider using tables to enhance the readability of lengthy data lists."). Barryjjoyce (talk) 00:38, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The problem I have with this table is that it is incomplete, both in the current article version and the revised version above. It does not contain all of the clubs supplying players to the North Korean squad. Such a table needs to be complete or not there at all. There is no note to indicate that 5 players is a minimum requirement, nor do I think such a note is desirable as essentially a random cut off point falling foul of OR. Essentially, I am not sure what the table is meant to be doing in it's current incomplete state, it is confusing and fundamentally misleading for people who look at the page at a glance. It would be useful I think if Barryjjoyce (talk · contribs) could redo the table so that it includes a list of all clubs, even if they only supply one player. I think this would then show a far too cumbersome list. My preference is along the lines of GS's view. For clubs such as Barcelona, they probably warrant sourced prose comment as they are providing a significant number of players, for many of the others, I do not think it is a point that has received a great deal of coverage. Fenix down (talk) 09:01, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this table was ever intended to be a complete listing, nor do I think that would be desirable. I think the original intent of the section was to identify the clubs that contribute the most players to World Cup squads. A number of articles on major tournaments — such as this one and this one include tables that measure the top ten something or other. Perhaps if we re-name the section "clubs with most world cup players" and limit the table to the top ten or something like that, you may find that clarifies things. Barryjjoyce (talk) 02:29, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

It would clarify things, but "most" is subjective and would be down to a decision by an individual editor. Personally, if there is sufficient discussion around, say, Barca supplying the most players, that that should be mentioned in sourced prose in the article. I can see how that would be achievable. What I am not sure about is the notability of, say, Fulham, providing 5 players. I don'tthink that has been discusseed in depth anywhere and is therefore not required for the article. Essentially any cut off point is arbitrary if the clubs in question have not received significant reliable coverage about the number of players and therefore undesirable. Fenix down (talk) 10:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

User:ClubFootballFan1

This user appears to be yet another sockpuppet of User:Newestcastleman who has been blocked multiple times. At present, his edits seems rather trivial and somewhat pointless, but perhaps we should keep an eye on him. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 10:31, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I have re-opened the SPI for this new sock - Newestcastleman SPI. Feel free to add to it. JMHamo (talk) 13:04, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Template:TwoLegResult

Brought up in the champions league article. Should team 1 and team 2 be changed to home team in leg 1 and home team in leg 2? Or are there instances where that doesn't apply? -Koppapa (talk) 17:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

The first thing to my mind is when the order of ties is reversed, which seems to be a fairly commonplace situation. C679 22:01, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

In those cases we have previously changed place of "team 1" and "team 2" with a note saying they switched places. QED237 (talk) 22:36, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, I changed it for now. We'll see if problems pop up. -Koppapa (talk) 13:43, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Don't see a reason for doing this. A note if it changes like mentioned and good. Kante4 (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

It isn't about reversal of legs, it's just that a reader currently doesn't know if team 1 or team 2 hosts the 1st leg. -Koppapa (talk) 19:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

In Europe the first named team ALWAYS is the supposed home team. I don't know a single person that would think otherwise. Not a reason to change it. Kante4 (talk) 19:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Another RfC on naming

Please see the further RfC here. --John (talk) 17:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

CAF U17 Championship

Someone has nominated the following articles for deletion:

• 2011 African U-17 Championship squads
• 2013 African U-17 Championship squads

Obviously I'd rather keep them on Wikipedia, but I'm not entirely sure of the rules about whether they meet the criteria for articles. The European equivalents have articles. TheBigJagielka (talk) 22:38, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I nominated them, as there is a growing consensus that lists of non-notable players participating in junior competition is a WP:NOTSTATS failure, especially with the number of redlinks contained. JMHamo (talk) 22:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

José Vásquez (Peruvian footballer)

Could some help me verify if José Vásquez (Peruvian footballer) is notable? Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 22:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Name appears to be José Luis Vásquez, nicknamed "Camote" (which should aid finding sources), refs include this and this and this. Seems to have had a decent career in the Peruvian top-flight, so I would say he is notable. GiantSnowman 23:19, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Article should be renamed to Jose Luis Vasquez, to reflect its common name.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 01:14, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Premier League Golden Boot FLC

The Golden Boot FLC page has now been opened for about a month now. This is my first football FLC nomination, so feel free to comment on it, especially on any "football-specific" aspects I might've missed. Cheers! —Bloom6132 (talk) 19:00, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

2014_Latvian_Higher_League

Could someone help me fix the map at 2014_Latvian_Higher_League#Stadiums_and_locations. Two teams were originally excluded but readmitted on appeal. Thanks, Valenciano (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Looks ok now, 10 teams on map. -Koppapa (talk) 18:29, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

AFC needing some help!

Hi folks. Please take a look at this article rotting away in Articles for Creation. Perhaps someone here can review it. Thanks :) Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Erik Palmer Brown -- SarahStierch (talk) 18:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi @SarahStierch: - the article is about a non-notable player, fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 18:26, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

To space or not to space

Let me start by saying that this is the dumbest thing to edit war over. A user, who has been adding archived URLs to several football articles, has also been removing spaces used for visual cues and to make selection of words in tables easier. This has happened on articles such as Mehmet Ekici (which is where I first noticed it), Michael Ballack, Oliver Bierhoff and Oliver Kahn. The editor has been asked by several editors not to, but it doesn't seem as though that has helped sway the editor. Should we care? Should we just leave it as the archives are helpful and the players are for the most part no longer active? In a project that has very few formatting guidelines, should we create such a guideline to help editors? Asking for feedback. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:27, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

This WikiProject might not have many formatting guidelines, but Wikipedia as a whole certainly does and that is what we should follow. WP:MOS. GiantSnowman 12:20, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Honda, Error?

When Keisuke Honda has scored a goal for AC Milan?((SERIE A))--Lglukgl (talk) 20:39, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

15th Jan against Spezia in the Coppa Italia. --Connelly90 09:18, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The Coppa Italia is not Serie A though, Connelly. – PeeJay 10:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Czech league system

I've just noticed that the articles Czech Republic football league system and Football in the Czech Republic are essentially the same, but the former is more up-to-date and detailed. Any ideas what should be done here? I know it's standard practice to have a "football in X" article for each country, so if we just have one article it should probably be at that title, though I'd imagine it should contain more information than just the structure of the league system. - filelakeshoe (t / c) 13:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The "Football in Fooland" articles should be more of a history of the sport in that country, rather than just a description of the current state of the sport there. – PeeJay 19:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Reliable source for player information (i.e. height)

Hi, I have had a minor dispute at Cristiano Ronaldo with an editor that started when he said Dont change when he suddenly changed source and height of the player. That got me going a bit because you should not telll others what to do or not to do(he has a habbit of doing so even if someone told him to stop a few months ago). I reverted him asking what was wrong with the current source (a bit since he told everyone not to edit, which reacted on, I admit to that) and then he changed height again without even changing source this time. Myself I reverted twice and asked him to discuss, but now I have stopped not interested in reaching 3RR.

Now I am asking WT:FOOTY for help what source to use and why (what is most reliable), and have in mind WP:PRIMARY should be avoided. The source in the article was previously UEFA and now the editor wants RealMadrid as source. Perhaps the source the editor wants to impose is best but he should not do it without disussion, when he has been reverted, and it is considered a primary source to avoid? QED237 (talk) 22:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

More information is needed, such as do both state the same height. Primary sources do not always need to be avoided and where information between sources is doubted I would tend to find the primary to be more accurate. Height of a player is one of those situations as a player will have all this information taken when they join the club. However if both the sources agree then I would use the secondary source. Blethering Scot 00:42, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The height of individuals may vary by as much as one inch during the 24 hours cycle, so at best it can be said that someone is "about" six feet etc. Also, growth can still occur in adulthood (up to 20-21 years old), which may potentially affect many players (and the majority of new Wikipedia entries are for young footballers). 46.238.126.143 (talk) 08:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, both are probably rigth although different. Doesn't matter to me which is used. -Koppapa (talk) 08:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The height between the two soures differs by 1cm and I have not had the time to look up other soures as to what they say. With a little distance to it perhaps the primary one could be used, I just lost my head a bit when a non-regular editor came and changed a source with the edit summary "Dont change" and he has a habbit of doing this when looking at his talk (told to stop before) and he continues according to his contribs. He should not just change source without explanation or discussion and definately not tell others not to edit. QED237 (talk) 11:41, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

This should be a matter for the article talk page; list all the possible heights as per relevant RS and then come to an agreement about which is correct. GiantSnowman 12:18, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

FIFA Eligibility Rules (Club template)

I know this is going to sound silly, but can we get confirmation that "FIFA eligibility rules" means what nation the team is eligible to play for under FIFA first and foremost, and not "the last national team the player has played for, even if he is not eligible?" There are certain people here who seem to believe that "FIFA eligibility rules" means the latter, so that players who are no longer eligible to play for a country (because, in that case, he had relinquished eligibility in favor of another country) still have their previous country's flag. What if that player has lost or denounced citizenship? What if the country no longer exists or is recognized by FIFA? If the rule is "last country played for," it should so state. If it says "FIFA eligibility," then it is not hard for that to mean precisely that, at least for people who are eligible for selection for only one country at present time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 23:06, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I should add this is regarding footballer Julian Green at FC Bayern Munich (discussion at Talk:FC Bayern Munich) who is about to change national team from Germany to US so there has been some editors wanting to change flag of the player in "current squad"-section. The same issue that has been before with for example Diego Costa. QED237 (talk) 23:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The flag shouldn't be changed until the player has begun playing for another country. Hack (talk) 08:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Well if text says eligibility, i'd go with USA for Green now. -Koppapa (talk) 09:42, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Other than "that's what we do," what's the basis for this? He is not eligible for Germany. Did we keep Yugoslavian flags on all players who were capped at the youth levels of Yugoslavia until they were capped by another team, once Yugoslavia was broken up? Green is as eligible for Germany as those players were eligible for a nonexistent Yugoslavia. There's no logic for leaving a German flag along with a statement that the flag is based on FIFA eligibility rules. If you leave the German flag up, you need to amend the template note. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk • contribs)

The text is unclear. It says "defined under FIFA eligibility rules". According to FIFA Green is only eligible to play for the US. The flag should be changed or the text should reflect the arbitrary standards.--24.253.243.188 (talk) 01:44, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

FIFA Club World Championship 2000 - edit player hyperlink

Hi guys,

I was wondering if someone could guide in editing a player hyperlink at this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_FIFA_Club_World_Championship_squads

My name is Mustafa Mustafa and I was a player for the South Melbourne Soccer Club during the FIFA Club World Championships in 2000. I have checked each of the player profiles created on Wiki however there is one error I would like to rectify. When clicking on "Mustafa Mustafa" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Mustafa), users are redirected to a Greek Politician which is the incorrect person. I am now looking to update this page and redirect wiki users to a newly created profile.

Can you tell me: 1. How can we remove the hyperlink from "Mustafa Mustafa" in the South Melbourne player squad? 2. How do I create a new article to detail my football career before applying this correct hyperlink?

Thanking you all in advance, Mustafa. Musti mus (talk) 02:31, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi @Musti mus: - the National Soccer League was not fully-professional, si it is unlikely you meet notability requirements for an article about you sorry. GiantSnowman 13:22, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi @GiantSnowman: - Thanks for your response. Agree the National Soccer League was semi-pro at the time however I think that is irrelevant. It was the National Association football league, a member of the Oceania Football Confederation and subsequently a recognised full member of FIFA. I think the notability requirements may need to be updated to reflect such scenarios as there are many around the world. Any Top level league that is a member governed by FIFA should qualify for notability requirements.

That aside, are you able to help with removing the hyperlink? Cheers again. Musti mus (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The link has already been removed. GiantSnowman 08:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Input requested on Talk:Expansion of Major League Soccer

I got caught in an edit war with user Clematis1378 at Expansion of Major League Soccer - my general issue with the user is that the edits tend to be overly Cosmos-centric, but that could just be my point of view. I'm already at two reverts so I'm going to stop editing and I've been involved in a few too many disputes with Clematis, so a fresh perspective would be appreciated. Mosmof (talk) 16:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

John Marquis career stats

John Marquis has just begun a second loan spell with Northampton Town, both in the same season, and broken up by a game at parent club Millwall. Should the stats be amalgamated in one row in the stats table, or as two separate? GiantSnowman 18:24, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Same row in the stats table, separate spells in the infobox, IMO. See Jack Butland at Cheltenham. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:46, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Same situation with Tom Thorpe, whose loan from Manchester United to Birmingham City was cut short at the start of the month due to injury before he returned to Birmingham today. I feel like since this is effectively a loan extension (he would have remained on loan to Birmingham had he not been injured), the loan should be on the same line in both the infobox and the stats table. – PeeJay 21:07, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Not quite the same. Marquis played for his parent club between the loan spells, Butland was on the bench for his parent club between the loans, so they're unarguably separate spells. After Thorpe returned to MUFC for treatment, they ended the loan on 3 March, so formally, it's two separate spells for him as well. However, I agree that the loan would have been continuous had he not got injured, so it might as well be just the one entry in the infobox. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I presume players return to parent clubs (unofficially / without it being reported) if they pick up a knock. That does not mean they are separate spells - whereas with Butland/Marquis, as they were squad members at the parent club in the intervening time then that is where their registration lay. I would presume that Thorpe remained registered to Birmingham the entire time he was back with Man Utd. GiantSnowman 21:53, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Keith Costigan

Another editor has tagged Keith Costigan for proposed deletion with the concern "Fails WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG" Eastmain (talk • contribs) 00:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)