Talk:Pit bull

Fixed Broken Links in ASPCA Reference

Citations 9 & 10 in History Section: References were dead links, updated them to new page links. Previous links were http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/dog-fighting/dog-fighting-faq.html and http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/dog-fighting/pit-bull-cruelty.html. There are still a few more dead links that need to be updated.--Jenniferiarene (talk) 14:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Letter to the editor as a source?

A letter to the editor by Karen Delise, a vet tech and activist, is being used as a source to cast doubt on a 15-year scientific review published in an academic journal. Here's the disputed content:

• However, concerns about the reliability of the study's data, its conclusions, its methodology, and its use of citations were raised in a later letter to the editor of Annals of Surgery, by Karen Delise, founder of the National Canine Research Council, a pit bull advocacy organization.

I deleted that content with this edit summary: "A letter to the editor from an advocate? No way is this good content." It was restored with this edit summary: "see talk thread, letter raises legitimate concerns and is from the director of NCRC"

I then looked for discussion of that reference and author on the talk page. Karen Delise is discussed quit a bit in this section:

• Talk:Pit_bull#Recommend_removing_National_Canine_Research_Center_section.

Since that didn't discuss this disputed content, I kept searching. I finally found this discussion of the 15-year review here:

• Talk:Pit_bull#Major_Problem_with_Bini_.26_Cohn_Study_.28source_.2335.29.

There I see some editorial OR reasoning and reference to the disputed letter to the editor.

Regardless of whether Karen Delise is considered some type of expert witness, her letter to the editor doesn't rise to the level of WP:MEDRS compliant content we would use to trump or cast doubt on the research discussed in a 15-year scientific review published in an academic journal by established scientists. It's a policy violation to include it, so I'm removing it again and it should not be restored until talk page discussion has settled the matter. If that doesn't work, dispute resolution may be necessary.

Note that I'm not saying there couldn't be problems with the study, or that mention of those problems can not be allowed. It just has to be done properly using better sources. We can't use OR by an advocate and nonscientist to trump such published research. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:02, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, thats where the concerns about the study and Delise's response were raised. I'm not sure how WP:MEDRS would apply here, nor do I see anything specifically prohibiting a letter to the editor for inclusion. While the initial article appeared in a surgical journal, it attempts to use media reports of various attacks to determine breed of patients, and then using this data, claims that pit bulls are the most prone to attack. For an example, an excerpt from the letter: In the first line, Dr Bini writes, “An 11-month-old boy arrived at our level 1 trauma center after being mauled by 2 pit bulls.” There is no documented evidence from any authority that either dog involved in this incident were “pit bulls.” To determine whether the breed attributed to these dogs could be visually substantiated by a recognized expert, I submitted photographs of both dogs to Dr Amy Marder, VMD, CAAB.* Dr Marder reported the breed(s) of dog could not be reasonably determined by visual identification.. In addition to this, the study relies heavily on data from dogsbite.org, a pro-BSL site which intentionally skews dog bite fatality statistics and does not meet WP:RS. The article then goes on to recommend BSL. It seems suspect to be that a surgical journal would publish an article by two surgeons, (NOT veterinarians or animal behaviorists) which would attempt to identify pitbulls based on non-veterinary practices and then recommend legislation based on their findings. It just doesnt seem appropriate for a surgical journal, and sounds like two doctors researching outside of their area of expertise. In regards to Delise, I think its selling her a bit short calling her a vet tech activist. While that is technically true, the NCRC is a fully staffed organization with a board of science advisors. The conclusion of the letter reads: The conclusions reported in a peer-reviewed medical journal should rest on a foundation of valid data. It is imperative that authors consider all sources carefully and judiciously. Dr Bini and his colleagues would have been well advised to consult animal professionals on subject matter that was clearly outside their area of expertise. - is this not a valid point if the study relies heavily on data that would not even meet WP:RS? If you are not able to access Delise's letter, I can provide you with a full copy. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:39, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Any further input or discussion? I don't want to revert or escalate without anyone else chiming in...PearlSt82 (talk) 14:11, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Changes to Lede

Per WP:LEDE - "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.". Mentioning of BSL and its effectiveness is absolutely relevant to the pit bull topic, and I don't see why sourced content that accurately sums up the Legislation section should be removed. PearlSt82 (talk) 19:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The key word there is concise. Ledes are not meant to serve a POV, which BSL is. You don't push a POV in a lede, let alone in an article. The section below adequately describes BSL and attemtps to control pit bulls. The lede is not the place for it. Please do not insert it again without further consensus. I will abide by any consensus reached. In fact, I will ask for a WP:THIRDOPINION right now. Regards, --Manway 21:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I disagree that mentioning BSL counts as POV pushing, but may I add if this is your objection to its inclusion, then the sentence "Several jurisdictions have enacted breed-specific legislation against pit bulls, ranging from outright bans on the possession of pit bull-type dogs, to restrictions and conditions on pit bull ownership." should be removed also.PearlSt82 (talk) 23:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks. --Manway 06:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm a regular volunteer at Third Opinion. Your request there has been removed because the requirement of thorough talk page discussion has not been satisfied. (Also, 3O's do not "count" toward consensus. For a form of dispute resolution which is designed to help form consensus, consider request for comments.) Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 04:16, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Pending lack of further input, I'm just going to remove that extra sentence and leave it at that. However, that still leaves a few unanswered things that I'd like a bit of clarification on. The former paragraph had three citations for the statement that BSL doesn't work. Each of those citations cite a number of scientific studies - probably at least 10 in total. The White House also issued a statement saying that research indicates BSL does not work. Where would this information be best? These sources are not included either in this, nor the BSL article. There seems to be consensus against a criticism section in the BSL article (which I can understand), but would this amount of RS be enough to create its own free standing article?PearlSt82 (talk) 14:30, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Tracey v Solesky

I've removed the reference to Tracey v Solesky - on April 8th, the Maryland governor signed HB 73/SB 247 which reverses the decision and Maryland no longer considers pit bulls to be "inherently dangerous". PearlSt82 (talk) 14:59, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

20 Year AVMA study in lede

I removed this from the lede as it would be WP:UNDUE to just mention this study. It is almost 15 years out of date, and the AVMA has published a more recent literature review of dog bites and dog bite fatalities, and its relation to breed. That study says: "Owners of pit bull-type dogs deal with a strong breed stigma,35 however controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous. The pit bull type is particularly ambiguous as a "breed" encompassing a range of pedigree breeds, informal types and appearances that cannot be reliably identified. Visual determination of dog breed is known to not always be reliable.36 And witnesses may be predisposed to assume that a vicious dog is of this type. It should also be considered that the incidence of pit bull-type dogs' involvement in severe and fatal attacks may represent high prevalence in neighborhoods that present high risk to the young children who are the most common victim of severe or fatal attacks. And as owners of stigmatized breeds are more likely to have involvement in criminal and/or violent acts37—breed correlations may have the owner's behavior as the underlying causal factor." under the "pit bull section" and "Given that pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies, and the potential role of prevalence and management factors, it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention. If breeds are to be targeted a cluster of large breeds would be implicated including the German shepherd and shepherd crosses and other breeds that vary by location." in the conclusion. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:36, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

PearlSt82, I can see your point about it being undue to only mention this one study. I chose it because it seemed to sum up what all the others said, and because it was the longest study by the most authoritative source.

So, let's figure out a replacement. The lead needs to mention these facts. That's policy. Can we find some wording that mentions the main points from these various studies? We don't even need to use refs as long as we are being faithful to the sourced content. Do you have some ideas? -- Brangifer (talk) 03:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I would go with what the recent AVMA literature review says. It reviews 53 studies on dog bites, aggression and fatalities, and from WP:RS - "Try to cite present scholarly consensus when available, recognizing that this is often absent", and "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper.". I propose we add material the literature review to the "Attacks on humans" section, tighten up the findings of the studies (such as removing studies done from the early 1990s). The key sentences from that AVMA literature review pertinent to pitbulls are: "controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous", and "It should also be considered that the incidence of pit bull-type dogs' involvement in severe and fatal attacks may represent high prevalence in neighborhoods that present high risk to the young children who are the most common victim of severe or fatal attacks.". There is also relevant information in there pertinent to BSL, but I think the legislation section and the separate BSL article is sufficiently covered. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Seeing no further discussion, I will take silence as a sign of agreement. Over the next few weeks I'll start to make these changes, as well as unpacking some of the citations from the lit. review. A fair amount of relevant citations from that literature review have not appeared in this article, including, but not limited to:

Duffy, DL., Hsu, Y. Serpell, JA. Breed differences in canine aggression. Appl Anim Behav Sci 2008;114:441–460.

Dwyer JP, Douglas TS, van As AB. Dog bites injuries in children—a review of data from a South Africa paediatric trauma unit. 2007;97:597–600.

Fatjó J, Amat M, Mariotti VM, Torre JLR, Manteca X. Analysis of 1040 cases of canine aggression in a referral practice in Spain. J Vet Behav 2007; 2:158-65.

Lang ME, Klassen T. Dog bites in Canadian children: a five-year review of severity and emergency department management. Can J Emerg Med. 2005;7:309–314.

Loewe CL, Francisco JD, Bechinski J. Pitbull mauling deaths in Detroit. The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology 2007;28:356-360.PearlSt82 (talk) 19:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I would caution that the study you linked merely says that "pit bulls" do not seem to be inherently more dangerous than other aggressive breeds such as German Shepherds, but even the snippet you linked to admits that the association with owners that are often involved in criminality could increase the risk. Gigs (talk) 19:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware - and this is a major theme in most recent studies. There is nothing to suggest that pit bulls are inherently more aggressive than other breeds, and often times fatal dog attacks result from situations caused by poor socioeconomic factors. The current wording of the article, which is based off of old studies with outdated conclusions, implies that pitbulls *are* inherently more aggressive than other breeds, some advocating for legislation. PearlSt82 (talk) 20:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Also I'd like to point out that the literature review does not label pits or GSD as aggressive - the most aggressive breeds towards people are "small to medium-sized dogs such as the collies, toy breeds and spaniels". The literature review URL has also changed since AVMA is redoign their site, now here: https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Pages/The-Role-of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx. PearlSt82 (talk) 20:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but when talking about serious injury or death, the larger potentially aggressive breeds are what matters. German Shepards, Rotts, Malamutes, and "Pit Bulls" always top those lists. Gigs (talk) 18:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thats not what the WP:RS is saying though. Its says "Serious bites occur due to a range of factors in which a dog's size and temperament are known to be the risk factors. Also important are dog management factors such as neutering and tethering, and child care factors such as supervision around animals. Given that pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies, and the potential role of prevalence and management factors, it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention. If breeds are to be targeted a cluster of large breeds would be implicated including the German shepherd and shepherd crosses and other breeds that vary by location.". We should go with what the secondary literature review says and not try to interpret raw data from lists. If you want to look at fatality lists, Fatal dog attacks in the United States has a rather comprehensive list. You can see that pit bulls kill roughly 25 people per year, and given that there are about five million pit bulls in the US, it would mean that 0.0005% of pitbulls are implicated in fatalities. However, framing this information either way would be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH if not explicitly stated in the WP:RS. We can't say "pit bulls kill the most people of all dogs, therefore pit bulls are the most dangerous" when this is not what the current research says. WP:RS gives weight to recent scholarly literature reviews, which explicitly says that there is nothing inherently dangerous about pit bulls, they are not disproportionately aggressive compared to other dogs and other factors aside from breed (poor dog management, socioeconomic factors) are what contribute to fatalities. PearlSt82 (talk) 12:55, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

It's also been a persistent problem with this article and the wider debate that non-fatal injury data is very limited and unreliable. Fatalities from dog attacks are rare and almost always children, rare enough that they can't necessarily be relied upon to draw any larger conclusions about relative breed aggression. I think this is the main thrust of what the literature you cite is saying, that based upon the data we have, it could just mean that more unsupervised children are hanging around. This is more of a flaw in the data we have, rather than a concrete conclusion about the relative risk of breeds, and I think that's what they are mainly getting at.

What I was getting at is that the insurance industry does have more data than we have in academic or governmental sources. With the caveat that that data is often based on insurance claims, with the normal potential for improper breed identification by lay people, especially with so many "bully mixes" running around.

From an article standpoint, I think you are on the right track for the most part. We need to tell the reader about the challenges facing the collection of data regarding "pit bulls" and dog attacks in general, without downplaying the fact that by most any metric that we do have access to, the "pit bull" does rank among the most human-aggressive larger dog breeds, but without any conclusive data that it is any more aggressive than the other aggressive large breeds, and that relative comparisons among potentially aggressive breeds is difficult. Gigs (talk) 19:36, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree there are a number of challenges which include:

1. non-fatal dog bite data is severely underreported, especially with smaller dogs
2. the AKC temperament test is designed to be a way to evaluate temperament and aggression, but various users have removed it from the page. I think its time to reevaluate that position. The statistics can be viewed here and the about page here. I don't see anything which would make this organization fail WP:RS
3. the only data we have which suggests pitbulls are inherently dangerous are outdated studies. Voith's (extremely important) findings on visual identification vs DNA testing are relatively recent, only from 2009
4. as currently noted by the article, "pit bull" is a wide classification of dog, often id'd visually. Basically any shelter mutt with a large square shaped head can (and often does) get labelled a "pit bull" regardless if it has any genetic relations to the Amstaff. This makes specific breed identification difficult - it would be the equivalent of referring to "shepherds" as an umbrella term for GSD, Belgian Malanois, and many other variants, and the Voith study notes that visual identification is accurate only 25% of the time

I think if we can address and get consensus on these issues, we would be in a good position to go forward with the article.PearlSt82 (talk) 13:18, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Moved from article for discussion

An edit war has occurred over this content, so I have moved it here for discussion:

• In fact, Pitbull terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers have pass rates of 86.8% and 84.5%, respectively, of the American Temperament Test. This is even higher than some. Additionally, even Pitbulls raised to be aggressive can sometimes be rehabilitated, as shown by the work of dog trainers who rehabilitated the Michael Vick dogs.

This content is problematic in several ways, so let's discuss it and work this out. If we can reach a consensus version, then we can install that version.

I note several problems:

1. An unencyclopedic tone (we don't use phrases like "In fact"). That sets the tone as an unequivocal editorial attempt to sway the readers' opinion. We don't do that here. Editors must remain neutral and thus must use neutral wording when writing in Wikipedia's voice. We must replicate the tone found in the original sources. Those words are unnecessary and can be removed.
2. The ATTS link is duplicated, but that's easy to fix.
3. The ATTS itself is a problematic source, since the statistics are useless for general use. They are only for use for a specific dog, and as a whole they only document dogs which were tested by owners who took the time and paid the money. They say nothing about breeds as a whole. They are not scientifically valid statistics for use to say anything about breeds, only about the dogs which have been tested, which is a very selective subset of the total dog population.
4. That leaves the NPR source, which is a single example about the Michael Vick case. It's an interesting story and cannot be used to generalize. It does not apply to pit bulls which have never been trained to be aggressive and yet have attacked and even killed members of their own family group. Dogs which have been trained to be aggressive and then rehabilitated cannot be expected to be placed on a better footing than those which have never been trained to be aggressive. It can reasonably be assumed that they still have scars on their souls and still have the potential (likely more so...) to snap when provoked or frustrated.

I therefore oppose inclusion of any of this content. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:53, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit on the fence about the ATTS source. I can see your point, but on the other hand they've tested tens of thousands of dogs - no sample size will ever be 100% and I think they've tested enough to make accurate statements reflective of that. Regarding the Vick story, it does not mention "Pitbulls raised to be aggressive" - this statement is implied, and somewhat untrue. In the Vick case, the dogs were used and trained for dog fighting, which is a different kind of aggression than aggression towards people - usually an undesirable trait with dogfighters (for obvious reasons). Regarding temperament in comparison with other dogs, I would use this source: https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Pages/The-Role-of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx - the literature review which states "controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous" - it uses appropriate quantifers ("breed group", rather than "breed"), reviews several studies and talks about aggression in relation to other breeds. I'm not sure if its necessary to bring in the ATTS stats when this puts it in a much more succinct and accurate fashion that isn't drawing SYNTH from raw statistics. Still, I think there is a place for the ATTS in the article, I'm just not sure if this is the right fit for it. PearlSt82 (talk) 11:30, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Consolidate 2 articles into one

Two Wikipedia articles on the same subject. Lets keep American Pit Bull Terrier it's a far better article on the breed that explains exactly what it is, and exactly what the differences between it and related breeds are by reference to the American Kennel Club. It certainly doesn't need another article (this one) to explain that apart from pedigree Kennel Club registered American Pit Bull Terrier, there are pit bull-type dogs which may be subject to Breed-specific legislation.Overagainst (talk) 20:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Arguments to avoid. Please tweak.

We need this at the top. We're seeing the same arguments and comments again and again:

Please make suggestions for improvement. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, we need to stop using outdated studies. You are quoting a study that is 15 years old, and the AVMA has since reversed its position on breed. We need to use this recent literature review, which according to WP:RS must be given highest priority, as it is a secondary academic literature review of studies. Quoting the relevant policy: When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources. and Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper.. From the recent AVMA literature review, which is written in the voice of the AVMA, the full paragraph on pitbulls is as follows:

Owners of pit bull-type dogs deal with a strong breed stigma,35 however controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous. The pit bull type is particularly ambiguous as a "breed" encompassing a range of pedigree breeds, informal types and appearances that cannot be reliably identified. Visual determination of dog breed is known to not always be reliable.36 And witnesses may be predisposed to assume that a vicious dog is of this type. It should also be considered that the incidence of pit bull-type dogs' involvement in severe and fatal attacks may represent high prevalence in neighborhoods that present high risk to the young children who are the most common victim of severe or fatal attacks. And as owners of stigmatized breeds are more likely to have involvement in criminal and/or violent acts37—breed correlations may have the owner's behavior as the underlying causal factor.

and from the conclusion:

Given that pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies, and the potential role of prevalence and management factors, it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention. If breeds are to be targeted a cluster of large breeds would be implicated including the German shepherd and shepherd crosses and other breeds that vary by location.

As such, I completely oppose the use of everything after the text of "Only poorly socialized pit bulls cause problems." This is not special for pit bulls, as it is based on outdated primary studies, which are wholly contradicted by recent academic secondary reviews. PearlSt82 (talk) 12:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

What about this version? -- Brangifer (talk) 14:51, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. These are NPOV non-encyclopedic statements that for whatever reason find themselves here moreso than other dog-related articles. PearlSt82 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Good. I'll install it above, and it can always be revised. Other points may come to mind later. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Pitbull vs. Pit bull vs Pitbull (rapper)

What do we think about taking the page Pitbull, which is currently a redirect to Pit bull, and instead have it point to Pitbull (rapper)? I am cleaning up a whole bunch of incoming links right now that point to Pitbull, but are supposed to be pointing to the musician. We could then put a {{for|}} note at the top of that page, for people who are looking for the article about the actual dog breed. (I am also posting this question at Talk:Pitbull (rapper). Any thoughts on this? KConWiki (talk) 01:07, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Cane Corsos are Pit Bulls?

A citation should be provided for this statement, which is currently buried in the lied. I am unable to find reliable verification for this. If validation should be provided we should modify the Cane Corso article, also. Jay Dubya (talk) 21:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)