Talk:Josephus

Webpage about Flavius Josephus - Was Joseph of Arimathea, Flavius Josephus

Hi. Revently I posted an external link to a page about an elaborate discussion about Flavius Josephus being Joseph of Arimathea (The biblical figure that took Jesus from the cross and burried him in his land). It is a most interesting and revolutionary piece about early chrisianity, and the role of Josephus in it. Unfortunatelly the link was discarded as a spamlink. I really think this link has an encyclopedic value for this page, and it does not violate any Wikipedia rule. I hope it will be agreed to put the link back. --Controle2 (talk) 16:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

We don't link to absurd tinfoilhattery, so no.--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:40, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean with absurd tinfoilhattery? I think there is nothing absurd about it. And who is we? You are only one editor if I'm not mistaken --Controle2 (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

See tinfoil hat. It is shorthand for some incredible theory, to which no serious scholar would give any credence. Josephus was almost certainly not born at the time of the crucifixion.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree with you, but that is also what it discussed on the linkpage. Josephus indeed was not born in the year 33. It's true to all the facts we know about Josephus, and by consistently holding on to these facts some amazing conclusions can be drawn. It is extremely well grounded, and truely interesting I tell you. Did you see the link? --Controle2 (talk) 18:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

*** But who says that Jesus was definitely crucified in AD 33 ? - that date is rather speculative, bearing in mind the other data available. In the book "King Jesus", it is explained there that there are more than a dozen reason why the N.T. events actually occurred later than thought - including the descriptions of the AD70 fall of Jerusalem in the Gospels ("the little apocalypse"), and Prof Robert Eisenman's proposed link between Mary and Martha of Bethany and Miriam/Martha Boethus (an AD60s character). *** If the N.T. events occurred later, there is every chance of Josephus being Josephus of Arimathaea. This view is perhaps reinforced by Josephus recording a crucifixion event at the end of Vita (para 75) which is very similar to the N.T. event. Hugh Schonefield first popularised this possibility, so it was being discussed by scholars. Narwhal2 (talk) 16:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Note that Narwhal2 has been identified as one of several sockpuppets of Ralph Ellis, who wrote "King Jesus". Dougweller (talk) 18:52, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I did. But unless there is some evidence that the theory is being discussed among scholars, we would not link to it. "Interesting" is not a criterion.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

This is from a dutch book translated partly in English: "From: Jesus the Nazorian. A study on the historicity of Jesus and the origin of Christianity.. Pierre Krijbolder, Amsterdam 1976, Scientific Publisher." It is not just a theory made up by someone random, but a researched and published item. I'm not sure if today it is discussed among scolars, I would have to research it. But would this be enough reason to put it on wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Controle2 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

A Dutch book is quoted on that website, but there is no evidence that any serious scholar is discussing this crazy theory. Indeed, I can assure you they are not.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Here is a website dedicated to Krijbolder and his book "Jesus the Nazorian" or in dutch "Jezus de Nazoreeër". It's an english website. --Controle2 (talk) 12:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

"Yosef" was a common name at that time, like "Yashua" (anglicized is "Joshua" or "Jesus"). Just because there's a prominent-ish figure in the NT shares a name with a prominent historian doesn't mean they are the same, as fun and possible attractive (to some poor types) as it might be; besides, the details of the lives and persons of that of Arimathea and the historian contradict such a theory's claims, and just because "Scientific Publisher" is affixed to the name of some work, it doesn't mean the work is actually reliable or trustworthy; the work in question is "Jezus de Nazoreeër. Een studie over de historiciteit van Jezus en de oorsprong van het christendom", and its author is neither a historian nor a theologian or, basically, credentialed in any way to write upon that which he does. That author seems to be of the type attractive to varieties of demographics week-minded and eager for sensations and what's novel, speculative, rather than critical, examining, evidential, investigative: at least that's what it looks like from reviewing his works and claims in various areas; he's just not mainstream, nor is he a brilliant maverick. "Jezus de Nazoreeër" is just not a reliable source.

tooMuchData

15:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheResearchPersona (talk • contribs)

Added some brief background information and corrected a spelling error. References provided as well. --Tatoranaki (talk) 17:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Needs specificity

"Beginning with the creation according to Genesis, he outlines Jewish history. Abraham taught science to the Egyptians..."

This is sort of confusing - and not sourced. He certainly did not teach the scientific method, which is the foundation of science as we know it today, so if anyone knows what the text says exactly and can describe it more... accurately, that would be great. Also, why is so little of this page sourced? 98.168.192.162 (talk) 04:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Josephus asserts that the science of the Greeks and Egyptians, so prized by the Romans, was taught to them by Abraham and Moses, who were the philosophers and mathematicians of renown. Yes, it may be bs, but that's what he claims. Beyond that Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).--Scott Mac (Doc) 09:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Josephus ans chickens in Jerusalem

To whom it may concern,

Can you please help me. Josephus wrote in one of his books that chickens were not allowed inside the walls of Jerusalem, I think the page number is 187, can you help me with the books name and perhaps a copy of the page.

Will greatly appreciate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.112.204.252 (talk) 13:52, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Josephus and Genesis

The article refers to "the Genesis myth". This interjects an opinion...that the Biblical Genesis is a myth. That it is not, is a belief held by many people. It would be better to say "the creation story in Genesis" of "the Biblical story of creation" or simply "Genesis"....something of that light. Opinion has no place in encyclopedic form.Fabuladico (talk) 02:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

You misunderstand the use of the word "myth" here. To say Genesis is a myth is not opinion it is factual. In this context myth = "story told to convey a truth" "sacred story concerning the origins of the world or how the world and the creatures in it came to have their present form". Technically, it says nothing about the veracity of the story, or whether it is true literally, metaphorically or spiritually.--Scott Mac 11:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Right. Myth in scholarly circles has many meetings. Myth as legend is a prime example where the general story itself is true but some of the details are not--Columbus sailing west to prove the Earth was round, Paul Revere's famous ride, Edison as the inventor of the first light bulb, Custer at the Battle of Little Big Horn, nearly every known outlaw and sheriff of the Old West, the whole President Kennedy administration as a modern Camelot, and many others.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:15, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Theocracy

I believe that Josephus was the first person to use this term, but i am not sure. And I am no expet on josephus. I assume those of you who watch this page are - can you confirm for me whether he did indeed coin the term and if so, where did he first use it? If he did not coin the term, where did he get it from? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Critics

I am wondering if we should expand the profile to talk more about the criticisms of Josephus because there are many scholars who discount much of his writings as politically rather than factually influenced.THDju (talk) 12:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Arius Calpurnius Piso

Isn't there considerable speculation that Josephus' works were written by Arius Calpurnius Piso, and that Josephus was a pen name given a fictitious background? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.205.195 (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Convert?

Included the quote by Nitsa Ben-Ari in which, to my reading, she includes Josephus "among converts who were shunned" and then considered a traitor - addressing why 19th-century scholars refused to study or translate his work. Parkwells (talk) 17:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem is with your assertion that he converted to Christianity. Josephus went over to the Romans, that is the conversion your source speaks of. Neither your ref nor any other academic source make any claim about a conversion to Christinaty. I can understand why one might think that from an article that mentions Christianity so often, but Ben-Ari details the treatments of converts in general, not converts to Christinity. This is clear by her use of Shabtai Zvi in the paragraph following her mention of Josephus. Zvi was a covert to Islam. Poliocretes (talk) 17:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Jumped the gun, never mind. thanks, Poliocretes (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Widespread popularity of Josephus?

I can't help but notice that the claim in this article, "It was often the book after the Bible that was most frequently owned by Christians" is not one made uniquely to Josephus' work. Regarding the identity of the second most popular book owned by Christians after the Bible, serious contenders include St. Augustine's "Confessions," Thomas a Kempis' "Imitation of Christ," and John Bunyan's "A Pilgrim's Progress." If no one has any documentation substantiating this claim, I propose we change it to some more generic claim of the text's popularity, without seeking to inflate it's status with a dubious or unproved (or unprovable) claim. For example, "It was thenceforward a book popular throughout the Christian world." Thoughts? (Mryarsawich (talk) 15:00, 4 August 2012 (UTC))

Agree. Must have missed that comment as it is obviously unsubstantiated OR and a throwaway fluff comment. Ckruschke (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Bust

caption under the bust reads "A Roman portrait bust said to be of Josephus, though this identification reflects an antisemitic trope that assumes that Jews have large noses. In the absence of any epigraphic evidence, this attribution cannot be supported.[1]"

so why even put it there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.171.160.130 (talk) 04:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Can we believe all that Josephus has written.

I don't know if any one else has picked up on the fact that Flavius Josephus claims to have studied all three Jewish sects and been taught by a banus by the age of 19. The first factor is the Essenes never inducted initiates into their order until they were 20 or older.If you study the "Dead Sea Scrolls" you will understand that Josephus might be stretching the truth a little bit. Another factor is that he claims to have been taught by a banus like Yeshua/Jesus was. Was this Yohanan the banus that was kicked out of the Essenes or was there lots of profits roaming around in the wilderness just waiting to emerge to teach selected people. I find that there is something very important here if you read between the lines. Was Josephus suggesting that he was given the same knowledge that Yeshua had been given in order to gain favour with the Roman authorities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbean777 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

You might have to make a suggestion as how we can improve this article per WP:FORUM.--Inayity (talk) 18:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Josephus suggested a method of collective suicide

This claim is in dire need of a source. It directly conflicts with Josephus' own account of what transpired (The Jewish War III, 383), where he claims to have pleaded with the other survivors in the cave to reconsider their determination to commit suicide en masse. He does note, however, that upon realizing he would be unable to deter them from suicide while he himself wished to surrender to Vespasian's forces, that he suggested casting lots. Stating Josephus suggested a method of collective suicide is deceptive. AlmostSurely (talk) 14:57, 14 April 2015 (UTC)