Talk:Labrador Retriever

Origin of breed

This is confusing - the core origin dogs seem to be the St Johns water dog, but the first true Labradors were bred in England - is it not more correct to therefore state that despite the name, the breed origin is England? In addition, the article implies that breeding that led to the modern Labrador took place in the US - is this correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.12.0 (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The origin is the St. John's Dog, the stabilization and first registration (studbook) of the breed was in GR. The "implication" you note is lost on me as well, since there is mention of both the British and American studbooks/clubs and individuals on both sides of the Atlantic responsible for the development of the breed. Steorling (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The article does mention St. John's Dog, but the article is about the Labrador. Are those two the same? It doesn't look like that. The St. John's Dog is called the foundation breed. I'm no expert in this but to me that indicates the Labrador might contain more than just the St. John's Dog. According to the article the Labrador was developed by an Earl of Malmesbury and as I understand they were in Great Britain. The St. John's Dog had already been brought there (whatever part it had in it). I would not call that a Canadian dog. One question: What is the GR that Steorling is referring to? 2.110.44.130 (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Surely, the St John's is a Canadian breed but the Labrador is English. Whilst the Labrador was created from the St Johns, these are the locations where the breeds were first bred and recognised. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.14.90.92 (talk) 13:58, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Appearance

The sentence stuck in about how good labs are with children needs attention. While this is true and many owners refer to their labs as the "best babysitters in the world", it doesn't belong in "Appearance" but "Temperament" and needs a citation.

I also have an issue with the term "interwoven" to describe why Labrador coats are waterproof. The term implies the coat is "woven" or wool like, which is incorrect particularly when the only other description of the coat is "Labrador hair is usually short and straight". One of the defining characteristics of a Lab is the double coat as described in the standard. The shorter "fluffy" part traps air near the body while the straighter, longer guard hairs repel water like oilskin. This special double layer "dry suit" arrangement is not reflected in the term "interwoven." Suggest changing it to "double coat" with citation or explanation of the coats appearance from the breed standard. Steorling (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The terms English and American to describe the two varieties of Labrador are names only used in the U.S.A. Whilst all other countries where Labradors are common use different terms. The implication is that Labradors bred from English lines are show dogs and ones bred from American lines are field dogs which is untrue as is the implication that English Labradors meet the characteristics described. In fact all Labrador lines originate in England and current English lines have the same variety of appearance as American lines. In the UK the terms used are always 'Show' and 'Working'. Working lines tend to have maintained the looks of the original breed and are lighter framed and more athletic whilst increasingly Show lines are extremely heavy set with looks not dissimilar to Rottweilers or breeds featuring heavy folds of skin and hanging jowls. There is some controversy as many Show dogs have physical qualities that would prevent them from being practical as working dogs yet are considered by some to be the standard by which a 'working' breed is judged.

Further Reading

These books are general dog titles. Suggest inclusion of titles specifically about Labrador Retrievers and their history. Helen Warwick's The New Complete Labrador Retriever and Dorothy Howe's The Labrador Retriever are two that jump to mind...there are others more recent and older still with wonderful research on bloodlines, etc. I can add them if there are no objections. Steorling (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

External Links

Would benefit from links specific to the breed, particularly the "parent clubs" who set the standards (like the LRC, inc and LRC of Great Britain) and who have regional club directories available to those interested in the breed. Steorling (talk) 14:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Removal of references

The now broken references - and the information they supported - should not have been removed per WP:PRESERVE. It would have been better to mark them as broken links. In fact all or most appear to be archived at the Wayback Machine. Hafspajen (talk) 16:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Presence of a color dilution gene can cause chocolate dogs to appear silver, black to appear charcoal, and yellow to appear campaign colored. The purity of those bloodlines is disputed. Some major kennel clubs around the world allow dilute color Labradors to be registered as their base color. The Kennel Club (England) requires that they be registered as "Non-recognised."

This is rather a changed version. The controvesy is a controversy. Hafspajen (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

That source, http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html, appear to be polemic: it's a breeder expressing their opinion that their Labs are better than somebody else's. I recommend that you find the citation from a more reliable source. The summary of facts I added about the genetics is agreed upon by all: there's a gene, and this is how it is expressed, like saying the sky is blue. Jehochman ^Talk 17:01, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

That gene is not comming through mutation, though. And it is not correct that major kennel clubs around the world allow dilute color, with the exception of England. We can't write that. Hafspajen (talk) 17:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to explain the controversy citing the best references we can find. We should shed light on this issue. Suggest we work together to write something much better than what was there originally. The page you want is this one: http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors Jehochman ^Talk 17:09, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

WILL YOU please look at the references? Under. Hafspajen (talk) 17:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

ORIGINALY WRITTEN, removed

Labrador Retrievers are registered in three colours: black (a solid black colour), yellow (considered from cream to fox-red), and chocolate (medium to dark brown). Some dogs are sold as "silver" pure-bred Labradors, but purity of those bloodlines is currently under dispute. When the silver color first showed up in Labradors it came from a kennel that also bred Weimaraners, and the dilute gene that causes a silver color is not found in the purebred Labrador Retriever. Some major kennel clubs around the world allow "Silver" Labradors to be registered but not as "Silver." The Kennel Club (England) requires that they be registered as "Non-recognised." The parent club for the Labrador Retriever in the USA (the LRC) states publicly that "There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors." Although the people trying to breed for a silver color claim the AKC will recognize silver in reality it is the National club that would need to do so, NOT the AKC, which has stated publicly that this is something it will never do.

All this is fully correct.

Replacement:

• Presence of a color dilution gene can cause chocolate dogs to appear silver, black to appear charcoal, and yellow to appear campaign colored. The purity of those bloodlines is disputed. Some major kennel clubs around the world allow dilute color Labradors to be registered as their base color. The Kennel Club (England) requires that they be registered as "Non-recognised."

Not correct. Major kennel clubs around the world don't allow dilute color Labradors to be registered as silver. Only three colors are allowed for now, wheat, chocolate and black.

BEST REFERENCES

Why don't you like the way it was formulated:? It is a controvesy. Hafspajen (talk) 17:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Book reference.

• Here: National Labrador Retriever Breed Council.POSITION STATEMENT 21st April 2010 Silver Coat Colour :An important part of that breed standard describes the three acceptable coat colours. Black, Yellow and Liver/Chocolate are the only recognised coat colours in our breed. Any diversion from these three standard colours indicates a cross breeding combination may have occurred. Disturbing evidence has now been uncovered which suggests that some unscrupulous breeders in Australia may be considering promoting a new coat colour to unsuspecting Australian Labrador puppy buyers – Silver (or Platinum or Charcoal). This concept is not new – for some years in the USA and more recently in New Zealand so called Silver Labradors have been pedalled by “backyard/designer dog” breeders as being rare or unique. Not surprisingly this advertised rarity comes at a significant price both financially to the buyer and in health concerns to the individual dogs concerned. The sad fact is that these Silver Labradors are cross bred dogs – the result of crossing a Labrador Retriever with a Weimaraner. Genetically these crossbred designer Labradors are at high risk of inherited structural and health defects. Neurological disorders such as epilepsy are widespread amongst “Silver” Labradors due to the inbreeding that is required to maintain the unnatural silver coat colour. These dogs also suffer debilitating skin and thyroid problems. It has also become evident that significant numbers do have problems with hip and elbow dysplasia due to generations of breeding from “untested” breeding stock. The NLRBC has issued a Silver Coat “high alert” to all State based member clubs around Australia. If you require more information or you wish to report the activities of a suspected Silver Labrador breeder please contact the Labrador Retriever Club in your home state.

These are the major kennel clubbs, and none allows silver.

They are NOT recognized.

• FCI doesn't allow silver
• AKC - doesn't allow silver.
• ANKC - doesn't allow silver
• CKC - [www.ckc.ca/en/Choosing-a-Dog/Choosing-a-Breed/All-Dogs doesn't allow silver]
• KC (UK) NOT recognized.
• NZKC doesn't allow silver

• UKC doesn't allow silver

UNITED KENNEL CLUB CITE: Color may be solid black, any solid shade of yellow from red to pale cream, or any solid shade of chocolate. Yellow dogs may have variations in shading on the ears, back and underside of the dog. A small white spot on the chest is permissible but not preferred. White hairs from aging or scarring should not be penalized. Disqualifications: Any color or combination of colors other than described above; albinism.

Those are the major kennel clubs. You still go on tagging the article and don't discuss.

Hafspajen (talk) 17:30, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Fully referenced section The dilute gene in the Labrador Retriever

^{The American Kennel Club (AKC) (and all other reputable kennel clubs around the world) recognizes three coat colors in the Labrador: black, yellow and chocolate. These colors are inherited based on genes at two loci: B and E. In recent years, other colors have become more prominent in the breed. Breeders refer to these colors as ‘silver’, ‘charcoal’ and ‘champagne’. In order to obtain these new colors, a recessive D locus dilution factor (dd) must be introduced into the population. According to literature, the dilution factor was not originally a part of the Labrador Retriever breed, and therefore, controversy surrounds the topic.}

^{Information known about the dilution factor’s lack of presence in the Labrador suggests that it was introduced into the breed in the United States, at some point in time, probably in the late 1940s, early 1950s, by crossbreeding. Research has shown that some dogs with coat color dilution are prone to hair loss and reoccurring skin problems. These conditions should be selected against by eliminating dilution factors within the Labrador population. The Labrador Retriever breed should be consistent with its breed standard, and dilute colored dogs incorrectly represent the purebred breed.}

^{The Labrador Retriever breed, as it was developed and registered in the United Kingdom, never (until 2006) carried the dilution factor. A survey in the United Kingdom, Europe, Canada and the United States shows that no reputable Labrador breeder has ever had a puppy carrying the dilution factor, so it is hard to explain the direct cause of a mutation in the breed. There is no other explanation than that crossbreeding occurred with a breed carrying dilution, probably the Weimaraner, and they passed the d allele down to offspring. There are many breeders in the United States who specialize in breeding diluted "Labradors". Diluted dogs typically have a metallic-looking sheen to the hair. A typical Labrador with a black phenotype can have the genotype: BBEE, BBEe, BbEE or BbEe. A Labrador with a chocolate phenotype will have either the bbEE or the bbEe genotype. A dog displaying a yellow coat must have the homozygous recessive genotype at the E locus, and therefore can be BBee, Bbee or bbee. It is possible for these genotypes to be diluted if the dog carries two copies of the recessive dilute gene, dd. Dogs that carry at least one D will not have a diluted coat. If a dog carries the Dd genotype at the D locus, one copy of the dilute gene is present. If bred to a bitch carrying a dilute gene (Dd or dd), diluted offspring could be produced.}

Hafspajen (talk) 17:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)