User talk:Jimbo Wales

What James said publicly

Hi Jimmy. According to this, you wrote to James that "I'm not going to dig up the exact quotes, you said publicly that you wrote to me in October that we were building a Google-competing search engine and that I more or less said that I'm fine with it". My emphasis. That said, do you have the exact quotes? I can't find anywhere where James said this. Thanks Peter Damian (talk) 18:05, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

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You are suggesting James is either a liar, or has 'poor memory or low emotional intelligence', or that 'emotional trauma' has coloured his perceptions on certain details. This is a serious thing (and nasty) to say about a man whose integrity and honesty is so far not in doubt. I have searched for evidence of what you claim James said publicly, and I can find nothing. There is something I copied here, but the first reference to 'Google like search engine' is in fact yours. Then James suggested someone should verify that WMF has a group of staff that want to work on a Google-like search engine. 'Verify' /= 'claim'. So where, according to you, did James make this public statement? You can't say mean things like this without digging up the exact quotes. Peter Damian (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I've been getting some pings about this, which had to do with a statement of mine, so I think I should clarify: I made a comment suggesting a "Google-like" search engine based on this Signpost article and some other source which had mentioned an attempt to make a search engine at Bomis, which apparently predates February 15 when User:Jytdog referred to it. This was only my take on some unclear things I'd read. After which Jimbo responded that it was never intended to be Google-like, and James Heilman made a purely hypothetical response to a scenario I'd raised. The original quote by User:Doc James did not say "Google-like", but was persuasive, because it was a quote: he noted a February 11 document said that "Knowledge Engine by Wikipedia will be the Internet's first transparent search engine, and the first one originated by the Wikimedia Foundation", citing the document.

I think the main point here is that we all need to take a chill pill. Every person coming to this and seeing statements that are frustratingly vague is a) getting frustrated, and b) reading things into what is said that are not quite true. The statements are apparently vague on purpose - User:Wbm1058 suggested there is a reason for this shortly after the quote Doc James provided in the archived discussion, and in any case I still don't know what KE really is. If we can't solve that, at least we can try to resist getting quite so frustrated. This is all blind men and the elephant, and we should consider it most likely that each person involved is not lying, not crazy, just behaving in the way that makes the most sense based on what they know. Wnt (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

it would be nice if this were an "elephant" story but there are directly contradictory statements. Just in that thread you linked to, we have James saying here that "The board approved the Knight Foundation grant. I supported its approval following pressure which included comments about potentially removing members of the Board." And Jimmy said here that there were absolutely no such threats. These kinds of contradictions are not resolve-able with the "different parts of the elephant" hypothesis. Believe me, I tried. Jytdog (talk) 20:48, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Related: User talk:Doc James#What you said publicly. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Actually, in that link Jimbo said that if anyone on the board made such a threat he'd be astonished, and encouraged Doc James to specify who said what when. This is not really a direct contradiction until the two have narrowed it down to a solid disagreement about a specific conversation at a specific time. Wnt (talk) 03:29, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

from the dif: Absolutely not. The very idea is ridiculous. Based on everything that I have seen from the rest of the board, this is a complete impossibility. I am specifically checking with every board member to try to get some idea of what, if anything at all, this accusation could be based on, and I have so far come to a preliminary conclusion that it is a flat out lie. If I do find out that any board member made such a threat, I will be astonished. and it goes on. Jytdog (talk) 03:33, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Earlier today Guy Macon asked James: "...Doc James, when you say 'pressure which included comments about potentially removing members of the board' was this pressure applied in front of the entire board? Was it clear or ambiguous? Was Jimbo there? Does any other board member collaborate this claim?". James's reply: Yes Jimbo was there. And it was clear. I would imagine other board members would confirm this. (NB spelling error corrected "their" >> "there"). Jytdog (talk) 04:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

This is not an "elephants" story. That is a hope I had too. But it is not possible. Which is why I have been saying that for anybody who is paying attention, the contradictions are unbearable. And this is not the only example. Jytdog (talk) 04:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

From my perspective, the longer Jimmy keeps digging, the worse this is going to get for him, and for the movement. Which is the real tragedy. My hope is that he pivots, and hard. Jytdog (talk) 04:09, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

What digging? Have you found even one person to back up the idea that James was threatened with removal from the board if he didn't support the Knight grant? I haven't, and I've asked around. If someone on the board has backed it up, I'm very interested to hear the story. I think the evidence so far is very much on my side. As I have said all along, "If I do find out that any board member made such a threat, I will be astonished." I have seen nothing to change my mind about that. Have you seen anything?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog, if this is a he said, he said, you may never get to the bottom of it, but that does not mean you should stop seeking reality. I somehow don't see Jimbo pivoting...Southerners like to dig..:), and are beyond stubborn. Its entirely up to you, but if it was me and I could not let it go, I'd use the Thought experiment process to figure out what happened. That may work better than trying to "dig" relevant info from the combatants. Nocturnalnow (talk) 06:06, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I still want an answer to the question "Does any other board member corroborate this claim?" Doc James say that an unambiguous statement was made in front of the entire board including Jimbo Wales. Jimbo says it never happened. What do the eyewitnesses say? --Guy Macon (talk) 08:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Really? Answer A would mean board members were threatened and acquiesced. Answer B would mean it didn't happen. Acquiescence is not compatible with giving Answer A, and answer B would be silence as there is nothing to witness. I wouldn't expect any verbal/written answer but people tend to vote with their feet in cases like this. (p.s. I corrected a typo in your bolded area) --DHeyward (talk) 09:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Guy Macon that seeking info from other board members/eyewitnesses is the logical next step. One or more of them might feel an obligation to help those who are interested in getting to the bottom of what happened. There is nothing to lose by trying to get them to speak up or at least answer some questions. Even if they all clam up/stonewall, even that will provide an additional piece of reality for acceptance and/or possible reaction. Nocturnalnow (talk) 16:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

"Answer B would be silence as there is nothing to witness" doesn't make any sense. If someone claimed that Jimbo climbed the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man and that he did it right in front of me, my answer would not be be "silence as there is nothing to witness". My answer would be that I never saw it happen and that the claim that it happened right in front of me was false. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:34, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I Agree with Guy Macon re:Answer B. So one or more of the trustees need to help get the record straight. This matter seems too important to too many people to walk away from. If the trustees do not come forward, maybe a time deadline has to be set, then there are several other approaches I can think of at the moment; which have already been mentioned I think. The main thing I think is to try to get to the information in as non-judgmental way as possible. It may even be possible to get at the details without identifying the names of the individuals who did or said whatever. The first approach we could try is to bring in a professional counselor to speak to the parties separately, gather the details from all perspectives, boil down the events which the parties agree happened, come up with a description of the events which is agreeable to all parties and share that description, perhaps in confidence or perhaps not, with whomever wants to know the description of events. The sharing of the description might or might not be limited in some way, perhaps by email...I'm just thinking out loud here...or made public...these parameters could be set by the parties perhaps. Don't laugh, but I think an experienced family counselor might be able to work with the parties and help them sort this all out in a way that will bring a healthy, constructive and positive conclusion to this matter which all concerned, including the people talking here, will be happy with. Nocturnalnow (talk) 05:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog:

It looks like you are accusing Jimbo of something but not quite saying what it is. Your technique looks like a combination of tabloid journalism, McCarthyism, and schoolyard bullying. If you have an actual accusation to make, you should make it clearly, with evidence to back it up. Otherwise you should apologize. Please note that WP:No personal attacks says:

"Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks. ....

"What is considered to be a personal attack? ....

• "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki."

So I'm calling you on this. It's time to put up or shut up. Please take a few days to get your accusations and evidence in order and then present them so we can all see what you are talking about.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 06:43, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

You can choose however you like. Everyone has to deal with contradictions. They are right there, and turning the focus on me does nothing. Jytdog (talk) 08:30, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is all an argument about I-don't-know-what said I-don't-know-when by I-don't-know-who. If User:Doc James wants to explain exactly who, exactly what, and when, and says Jimmy Wales was right there, and was paying attention (I mean, they call them bored meetings for a reason - you sure he noticed?) and then he gives a contrary description, then maybe we can start speculating one of the two is actually saying something untrue. More likely, they'll simply say they interpreted the same statement differently, and if we heard the statement, then we'd have a chance to interpret it differently ourselves. This isn't hard science here ... more like an argument over how many smurfs you can squish in a barrel. Give me a bigger hammer and I can prove you a liar. :) Wnt (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I support Jytdog's free speech rights here because his persistence is within the bounds of civility, in my opinion.Smallbones is understandably getting tired of all the criticism of Jimbo, but persistence is often crucial when trying to get to the bottom of something and I think Jytdog's persistence is an acceptable approach in a seemingly complicated puzzle involving human behaviour with different spins and even different facts having been placed in our piublic arena for acceptance. It could be harmful to the long term soul of any movement to accept and archive presentations/reports about something important, that include what appears to some as a false reality propped up on flawed logic. At least that is my position on whether or not Jytdog has gone too far. I say no, he is just seeking the truth. Nocturnalnow (talk) 16:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Nocturnalnow but there is no "free speech" in WP, and nobody has any "rights" here. Jytdog (talk) 01:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Nocturnalnow but this is about Jytdog's bullying which has reached the point of McCarthyism. And I mean specifically the tactics of repeating vague accusations - without any proof of any kind - so often that people assume that there must be something to it simply because the vague accusations have been repeated so often. Jytdog has been "asking" the same "questions" for 2.5 months now, and he has received reasonable answers. It's time for Jytdog to step up to the plate and say exactly what his accusations are and what his evidence is. I've given him a nice slow pitch right down the middle of the plate, if he has anything he can whack that pitch right out of the ballpark. But I say he has nothing, no believable accusations and no evidence to back it up.

Jytdog can you produce anything? Or are you just another Joseph McCarthy. It's up to you. Show your stuff. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:49, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

@Smallbones: I've seen plenty of McCarthyism on this talk page in the past, and this ain't it. Please, we have enough chill pills on hand for everybody here. I have no doubt in my mind that dismissing a community representative was a bad idea, that not having a proper election afterward made it worse, but that doesn't mean that every side-issue where two imprecise accounts seem superficially contradictory has to lead to shouts of "that is a lie!", followed in due course by a duel at twenty paces. At the same time, we shouldn't expect people not to keep digging for details - which is one reason why it was such a bad idea, because it doesn't save the remaining board any hassles at all in the end. Wnt (talk) 20:53, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

@Smallbones: you are adding more heat than light throwing around hyperbolic accusations of McCarthyism. I have been reading this topic regularly and in my opinion Jimbo has indeed been guilty of giving answers which must be parsed for truth rather than being clear statements. Jimbo is a big boy and does not need others to shield him from questions from the community, he dodges them well enough on his own. Jbh^Talk 21:04, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I'll just wait for Jytdog's answer, if he can come up with one. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:16, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Once again

There is a lot of stuff about elephants and 'he said she said'. I don't care about this. Jimmy, my point is that if you are going to accuse people of being liars, or mentally traumatized, or talking 'utter f---ing bullshit' or other such mean things, then you need to back this up with 'exact quotes'. Indeed, even with exact quotes I am not sure those things are justified. ONCE AGAIN: where did James say publicly that he wrote to you in October that WMF was building a Google-competing search engine and that you "more or less said that I'm fine with it". Simple question. Peter Damian (talk) 11:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Peter Damian is not the only one waiting for an answer here, Jimbo. If James said that publicly (as you claim), that should not be difficult for you to find, should it? Huldra (talk) 22:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

It would be a pity if this question slipped off to archive unanswered. HolidayInGibraltar (talk) 10:41, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Can trustees ignore community requests?

Regarding Guy Macon's request for trustees to speak up regarding whether or not they are aware of any threats of removal having been made prior to the KE vote i.e. "Does any other board member corroborate this claim?"; I see this as a separate issue from J's and J's differing accounts. I see this aspect as being about what, if any, responsibility the trustees have to show some respect for requests from well established members of the community. Does anyone know the answer? Nocturnalnow (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

None. Trustees are not accountable to the community. There is an ethical argument that they are based on the WMF's stated values of transparency, but there is no mechanism by which trustees are actually accountable to anyone except the majority of the trustees, who can by a simple vote oust any other member, for any reason. Jytdog (talk) 01:13, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not preserve knowledge

Wikipedia does not serve the purpose of preservation of knowledge. This is because: 1) Every information needs an available source (to be checked). 2) If the source disappears (web-sites go off-line all the time, happens even to newspaper articles after some years), it doesn't matter how many times it was checked that what Wikipedia says is in accordance with the source, the information needs to be deleted if we can't find another source for that same info. So, if a catastrophe was to happen and all humanity were to have left after it was Wikipedia, then it would be the same as having nothing, because all the information at the articles would need to be deleted. Tusyas (talk) 06:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

This is known as link rot and there are various ways of dealing with it; Wikipedia has its own policy, WP:LINKROT. Two common ways round this problem are to use the Wayback Machine, which has an archive of web pages showing how they looked at various stages in the past, or WebCite, which allows users to archive a web page of their choice. Since the earliest days of the web in the 1990s, there have been concerns about the loss of data due to the transitory nature of web pages.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:25, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, the OP is quite correct: Wikipedia does not have the purpose of preservation of knowledge. The purpose of Wikipedia is to make knowledge accessible to the world, not to preserve it. That task belongs to other entities. Looie496 (talk) 15:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I think those of us who were left after such a catastrophe would go with common sense and consider Wikipedia its own source at that point... 80.229.152.168 (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I think if a catastrophe like that happened, that eliminated all forms of knowledge except Wikipedia, Wikipedia wouldn't be on the top of list of my concerns. I mean, this catastrophe would somehow involve the elimination of all libraries, heck, all books, all universities and schools. No, I wouldn't be worrying about sourcing on Wikipedia at that moment, I'd be concerned with the deterioration of human society. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Liz, in many regards, that's already happening without such a catastrophe. Atsme^📞📧 22:10, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Serious question for Jimbo Wales

Jimbo, do you really support this utter fucking complete bullshit rollback performed on your user page? Enquiring minds want to know. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 10:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Language, dear. I'll leave it to Jimbo to decide how he wants to spell this. It is a WP:ENGVAR issue with some more detail here and here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:07, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I really don't care one way or the other. I mostly care that people not fight about silly things.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

"tsk! tsk!", Ian. Didn't you know Jimbo has strong American ties? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:32, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Despite what the BBC article says, many British people do use -ize spellings nowadays and they are not considered to be wrong. In my younger days, British teachers would have crossed this out with a red pen. You wouldn't believe how much talk page space has been taken up at Color because some people want it to be spelled Colour. There is an infobox template asking people not to do this.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes, sorry, I meant strong American tize. N.B. spelt differently in Scottish. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

The OED uses vandalize, see Oxford spelling for more information. DuncanHill (talk) 15:53, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm... our article Canadian English gives paralyze as an example of following the Greek -izo root, while our article Oxford spelling gives paralyse as an example of maintaining "se" because it has the Greek -lyo root. Wiktionary wikt:paralyse says paralyze is frequently used in Canada, and they all blame the French, but this doesn't settle the issue. Is there an etymologist in the house? Wnt (talk) 16:57, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Another hmmmm...paralyze...paralyziz....no wait, it's paralysis but paralyze...cheez, no cheese...oh well, who gives a zhit. 😆 Atsme^📞📧 17:56, 15 March 2016 (UTC)