Talk:Bitcoin

Merged articles

Bloated intro section pruning

I propose a significant pruning of the intro section, it is terribly bloated.

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Length

Article length	Lead length
Fewer than 15,000 characters	One or two paragraphs
15,000–30,000 characters	Two or three paragraphs
More than 30,000 characters	Three or four paragraphs

Looking for feedback on where we are at on this article. I count 5 paragraphs, and the first paragraph is so long it could easily be counted as 2-3 paragraphs in itself. Let's move this content down into the article so it can be readable for readers who arrive on the page for the first time.

Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:16, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Jtbobwaysf. I do agree that the lead section can be shortened. On the other hand, I disagree that the informations can be "moved down into the article", since I think that all the informations already are in there. The pruning should be done carefully to not remove really important informations from the lead section, though. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 15:51, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree, the intro section is too long and too technical for an average reader. I propose the following edition of the intro (more than x2 shorter than the current one):

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency and a digital payment system invented by an unknown programmer, or a group of programmers, under the name Satoshi Nakamoto. It was released as open-source software in 2009.

The system is peer-to-peer, and transactions take place between users directly, without an intermediary. These transactions are verified by network nodes and recorded in a public distributed ledger called the blockchain. Since the system works without a central repository or single administrator, bitcoin is called the first decentralized digital currency.

Besides being obtained by "mining", bitcoins can be exchanged for other currencies, products, and services (legal or illegal ones).

As of February 2015, over 100,000 merchants and vendors accept bitcoin as payment. According to a research produced by Cambridge University in 2017, there are 2.9 to 5.8 million unique users actively using a cryptocurrency wallet, most of them using bitcoin.

References

Please feel free to modify it. - Sandegud (talk) 10:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Since you invited edits, I made a couple of adjustments:

1. used "digital payment system" instead of "electronic payment system" to reflect the cited source
2. kept the claim that the identity of Satoshi Nakamoto is unknown
3. removed the, somewhat misleading, claim that bitcoin is the largest of its kind Ladislav Mecir (talk) 11:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The new version is better, thank you. Sandegud (talk) 12:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I am good with the suggestions proposed. Suggest someone go ahead and make the edits, unless there is a feeling here that we need to wait for more input. Unless someone else really disagrees, I am also ok with just making the changes myself in a few days. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 23:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Jtbobwaysf. I (and maybe also Sandegud) just wanted to make sure other editors, such as yourself, get enough time to discuss this, because it may be perceived as a big change. The only question is what can be perceived as "enough time". Now it looks that we have got unanimous consensus, and the time we waited looks reasonable too. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 07:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi, I have gone ahead and made the changes per our discussion above. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't expect every Wikipedia article necessarily to be comprehensible to me, as every topic has its own language, subtleties, etc. It is nice though if the lead can be accessible to an average intelligent reader, or at least the first sentence of it. Could the first sentence be something like "Bitcoin is a non-national on-line currency released in 2009"? I understand that any of these words other than "Bitcoin" could be deficient - my point is not the words, but the sentence.

I understand your wish, but, unfortunately, it is not possible to honour it, not because your words are "deficient", but because they are controversial:

• as explained in the article, there are sources claiming that bitcoin is a currency as well as sources that claim that bitcoin is not a currency. Wikipedia must remain neutral, that is why you do not see the currency classification in the lead section.
• I added the "worldwide" adjective to the first sentence, curious whether there will be a consensus on that. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 13:13, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Bitcoin.org

I was wondering why Bitcoin.org is not linked in the infobox? Ethereum links to Ethereum.org. It is the original Domain. It was registered even before the White paper was published. --2A02:908:5C8:F240:B1A1:4BEA:2EB:B2FB (talk) 16:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea of the answer to your question, with certainty. But Wikipedia is built on reliable secondary sources. Do you have a secondary source that articulates the relation of bitcoin.org to bitcoin and the bitcoin protocol? N2e (talk) 05:30, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Isn't it just a load of bollocks?

ponzi scheme — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.67.74 (talk) 22:40, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

No — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:82:203:3348:7C4A:CAAB:F3E7:B3A7 (talk) 21:41, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Scalability debate

@Ladislav Mecir: I noticed you deleted a section created by @Benbest:. Certainly scability is a major debate right now and has been for more than a year, and deserves some sort of treatment in the article. Maybe we can discuss that here. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I deleted it, these are the reasons:

* Per WP:TOOBIG, the article should be significantly smaller than it is now. I reduced it by moving "History", "Energy consumption", "Security", "Data in the blockchain", "Legal status tax and regulation" and "Criminal activity" to subarticles. Per WP:TOOBIG, it still should be reduced by more than 30 kB. Do you have any idea how to achieve that?

* Both the claims and the sources were questionable. I do not deny that the debate is going on, but, if present, the contents must be based on reliable sources. Due to article size, I would prefer the section to be in the Bitcoin network subarticle. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 05:21, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

To not increase the size, I just added a link to the subarticle. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 05:57, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

• SUPPORT the position of the OP, Jtbobwaysf. The bitcoin scalability debate is significant, has been covered extensively in multiple reliable sources for a year or two now, has not (yet) been resolved, and is clearly an important part of the History of bitcoin. While no one here is advocating for extensive section-length treatments of the topic that would significantly add to the article length, it is poor encyclopedic explication for that important topic to be missing entirely. It seems a short few sentences, at a minimum, to provide an overview to the debate is warranted in this article. The gory detail can certainly be left for a sub-article. Cheers. N2e (talk) 05:27, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

I have copied all the content back off the other sub-page, as there was almost nothing extra and per @Ladislav Mecir:'s comment over at the Talk:Bitcoin_scalability_problem that he also didn't think the sub-page warranted a separate page. I think we can just allow this section to grow until its large enough to warrant a sub-page. But I think moving the majority of the content about scaling (and what generates most of the press, other than the bitcoin price) should be on the main page, not some sub-page. Now I have left duplicate content on the sub-page Bitcoin_scalability_problem, so can someone advise what is the procedure for deleting this sub-page? Is it AfD? Or just an admin delete? @David Gerard:, care to comment on this delete process? I think it is uncontroversial Jtbobwaysf (talk) 14:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the current contents of the "Scalability debate" section. In my opinion, the second paragraph is just a longer version of the first one, and it can be safely deleted to not increase the size of the article too much. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Didn't see what content was deleted. Added content today about segwit, there is no reason this article fails to mention off chain scaling solutions such as lightning/segwit, given it is a large percentage of the current news coverage. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

"Didn't see what content was deleted." - This is the deleted paragraph:

The bitcoin scalability problem is a consequence of the fact that blocks in the blockchain are limited to one megabyte in size. Bitcoin blocks carry the transactions on the bitcoin network since the last block has been created. The one megabyte limit has created problems for bitcoin transaction processing, such as increasing transaction fees and delayed processing of transactions that cannot be fit into a block.

Ladislav Mecir (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

References

"...there is no reason this article fails to mention off chain scaling solutions such as lightning/segwit, given it is a large percentage of the current news coverage." - I support an introduction of a reasonble claim supported by WP:IRS. Your edit did not do that. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 21:00, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Ladislav Mecir: You deleted the content I previous added, and I reverted it just now. You claimed Bitcoin Magazine, was not an RS. However, it Bitcoin Magazine is widely cited among the crypto articles... if there is a noticeboard that with consensus stating it is no longer an RS, please let me know, and I will try to find another source. I also added some more content and created a list of proposals. Lots of RS added, including Business Insider a Nigerian newspaper called Nigeria Today (funny they pick this up), CoinDesk, and investopedia. I also added the content to my sandbox User:Jtbobwaysf/sandbox#Scalability_debate, as maybe this content is controversial and it takes a while before it sticks.

@Benbest: do you have anything to add, like the sections, or dislike it?

@N2e: comments on leaving the content here, or trying to make a second sub-page. I dont see enough content here to make a subpage yet. Is toobig a justification for deleting content in this section, seems each side of the debate that has received notable coverage should be worthy of mention. The main players that I have read about are segwit, Bitcoin Unlimited, BIP148. Is there something I am missing. I also included the two big consensus meetings in Hong Kong and New York. Maybe I shouldn't have done those as separate bullets?

Maybe this section should be called the scaling controversy Happy editing :-) Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:40, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

"You deleted the content I previous added, and I reverted it just now." - you know that without achieving a consensus, this adheres to the definition of edit warring? Ladislav Mecir (talk) 21:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Comment — Wiki editing standards are pretty clear. If it is material to the topic, and sourced/cited, then such info definitely belongs in this article. If the article is quite large, as this article is getting to be but is not over the standard guideline on article size, then the information would be summarized here before having detail moved to another article.

The scaling debate is quite clearly a major debate in the community, has been for nearly two years now, and is very well sourced by many tens of news articles about it, since 2015. Clearly the scaling debate—what it is; when it got started; why it is an issue; what proposed solutions are for scaling the bitcoin protocol; who is and what groups are supporting various approaches; summaries of the pros/cons of various solutions—is all plainly a part of what ought to be covered in the article.

We should be trying to improve the article to convey information; moving that information about this major issue to some other article without covering it here should not even be a realistic debate. It needs to be covered in this article, whether summarized or in detail, while if there is too much detail on this protracted issue, that detail might well be also covered in one of the other detailed articles on the bitcoing protocol and its history. Cheers. N2e (talk) 23:48, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

N2e (talk · contribs) I added this content, which was deleted by @Jytdog: which I have preserved here in my sandbox User:Jtbobwaysf/sandbox#Scalability_debate. Its pathetic that this article has little reference of the scaling debate that has been going on for a couple of years already (one of the primary sources of industry rag discussions). More than a year ago I added wikilink to Blockstream on this article (the primary funder of bitcoin development from what I have heard), it was also deleted. In deleting the content this month, jytdog noted that investopedia (which I used as one of the sources) was user generated content (I didn't know that btw). However, I also added other content not sourced from investopedia. There is coverage of the scaling debate in CoinDesk, Bitcoin Magazine, etc. These sources are being used as RS on other cryptocurrency pages and these sources have already passed RS Noticeboard discussions. It appears that in this article's case these sources are being rejected for some reason, but this is resulting in an NPOV problem, as the page basically doesn't discuss the scaling issues bitcoin is facing and the coverage that receives. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:21, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Jtbobwaysf. Re "Bitcoin Magazine is widely cited among the crypto articles" and "These sources are being used as RS on other cryptocurrency pages" - to that I must refer you to WP:IRS stating that the "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." Especially in relation to the Bitcoin Magazine, the fact is that neither the Bitcoin Magazine nor any other source published the information on their publication proces such as whether they have any editorial policies in place. Thus, their publication process is not demonstrably reliable. The use of citations in other Wikipedia pages is not the requisite demonstration. In contrast to that, check CoinDesk, who publish the information on their editorial policies and are widely and demonstrably cited by other independent sources, not just by other Wikipedia articles. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 05:29, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

This RS debate is pretty common among the crypto articles, that in general seem to all have serious NPOV issues.

1. Are you asserting that any source that does not have a written editorial policy on their website is not an RS? Is this a matter of wikipedia policy, or is this your opinion? First time I have come across this position by en editor.

2. Are you saying coindesk is an RS because it has an editorial policy on their website? http://www.coindesk.com/editorial-policy/

3. Are you saying that bitcoin magazine is not an RS because it doesn't have an page on the website with an editorial policy, and thus it violates wikipedia policy requiring a source to have a webpage with an editorial policy?

Thanks, Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:47, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

My response:

"Is this a matter of wikipedia policy, or is this your opinion?" - WP:IRS says that "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." So, no, the demonstrability of the reliable publication process is not my opinion, it is required by WP:IRS.

"Are you saying coindesk is an RS because it has an editorial policy on their website?" - No. I am saying that they both have a reliable publication process in place, and they are demonstrably cited by other independent and reliable sources, which is another demonstration of their reliability. I can give examples of such citations.

"Are you saying that bitcoin magazine is not an RS because it doesn't have an page on the website with an editorial policy..." - No. I am saying that the "These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." requirement is not satisfied. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 08:27, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I think you are making a mistake to have a big debate in this section on the Talk page. Better: clear proposal; other editors weigh in with their rationale; ask for a non-involved closer to close the debate. Just let it ride; it is obvious that there are many other issues you two might disagree about. Just let those ride; or take them elsewhere. Leave this section with just the question of "Is the scalability debate history, at least at a summary level, appropriate to be covered in this article." My two cents. N2e (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@N2e:You are right N2e, I again drifted off subject as I tend to do. Maybe there isn't consensus here to add more content. I have added more content over at the sub-page. Bitcoin_scalability_problem By the way I think it is a bit weird the sub-page is called a problem, as some would call the scalability issue a feature. Everyone has a different idea on this... Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:50, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I have added a bit of content over at Bitcoin scalability problem. Welcome more eyeballs and comments. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:13, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Bitcoin Magazine now has a full editorial policy section on its "About" page; https://bitcoinmagazine.com/about/ Hope it will work as a RS now. Thanks. Acharkin (talk) 22:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC) acharkin 18:11,11 July 2017 (EST)

Can this article be re-written in comprehensible english? It is gobbledegook

After reading thru the article I wonder what on earth are you talking about. BTW there is an obtuse word string of 5 words, which should be a sentence that at least could be made grammatical (like 'twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre & gimbol"): "suspended withdrawals citing technical issues.[51]" How do withdrawals do citing? People do citing. That word string starts no where & ends no where. (PeacePeace (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2017 (UTC))

Thank you, I corrected the copy&paste error you mentioned. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 16:28, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Bitcoin is not the blockchain; it is a blockchain

As currently written, the Blockchain subsection of the article says:

"The blockchain is a public ledger that records bitcoin transactions." While immediately above this sentence, the {See also} note correctly links to the article describing what a blockchain is, and that article correctly explicates both the nature of what a blockchain is and the wide variety of blockchains that exist in current practice. They are not all bitcoin or bitcoin-protocol blockchains.

Propose to change the locution to:

A1. "The bitcoin blockchain is a public ledger that records bitcoin transactions."

or

A2. "The bitcoin blockchain is a public ledger that records transactions on the bitcoin network."

Rationale: needs an adjective to describe the specific sort of blockchain that is being referred to here. It simply is not the case that there is only one blockchain, and that blockchains records bitcoin transactions. There are many blockchains (data structures of a particular type) up and running today. The article prose should be explicit about the type of blockchain.

• SUPPORT—as nom, support the proposal, with either A1 or A2; slightly prefer A2. Rationale is presented in the nom post. N2e (talk) 05:20, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose — bitcoin is neither "the blockchain" nor "a blockchain". Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency and a payment system. As for the proposed changes: the article is about bitcoin, and, consequentially, the "Blockchain" subsection is about the blockchain used in bitcoin. Per WP:MOS, there is no need to underline this in the section, especially when there is only one blockchain used in bitcoin. Moreover, the blockchain used in bitcoin is the original blockchain, from which other blockchains are either derived, or have taken an inspiration. As to the reference to the Blockchain article — this is also problematic, since the article has many issues like:
  • Unreliable sources
  • Dubious claims
  • Missing citations
  • Marketing spin

Due to the listed issues, I would actually prefer to remove the reference to the Blockchain article until the listed issues are resolved. Instead of trying to correct the "Bitcoin" article that is not broken (if we do not take into account its length, which still needs decreasing, not increasing), we should rather concentrate on correcting the Blockchain article. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 05:52, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

• COMMENT—I am OK with either A1 or A2 as well. I think it should be made clear to the wikipedia reader that there is a bitcoin blockchain, and the 'bitcoins live on it.' Certainly bitcoins don't currently live on the Ethereum blockchain. Maybe I am also missing something, I don't see why this change is controversial. Also Bitcoin has a large role in the history of blockchain, as it was the first commercially viable blockchain (at least from what I understand), and is now one of hundreds or maybe thousands public blockchains that exist. Is there some nuance I am missing? I read this first last night and again today, trying to understand before I replied to this comment. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:28, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

What you are missing is the fact that per WP:MOS, in the Bitcoin article, when speaking about blockchain, it is not needed to point out either in the section name, or in the text that it is a bitcoin blockchain, since that is evident. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 06:40, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with Ladislav. The point of any encyclopedia article is to make things clear for our readers, as long as the material is sourced and cited. In this case, the use of the definite article ("the") misleads our readers. There is a group of technologies now known as blockchain. Bitcoin instntiates one of those, and uses that particular blockchain in it protocol and to further its purposes; many other blockchains exist. Thus, the "bitcoin blockchain" simply clarifies what it is. It is a blockchain, not the blockchain, and we should not confuse our readers. WP:MOS is never used to suggest that writing confusing prose is acceptable. N2e (talk) 17:58, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support While I might be missing something, using the word the makes it imply (to me) that bitcoin is the blockchain. Bitcoin is a name of a particular instance of a blockchain, and Bitcoin was also maybe the first major viable blockchain. But I think other than that, most of this section can be deleted if you are seeking to reduce the size of this article. I am sure most of this is covered in the blockchain article, and only what is unique about bitcoin's instance of a blockchain need be covered in this section. "The bitcoin network operates on a blockchain, and the (IFF it is true) the bitcoin blockchain was the first commercially viable blockchain... See also Blockchain". That's what I would do. Besides my long yarn here, I in general support what N2e is suggesting above. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Maintainers: You're archiving this too quickly to remove countering opinions. Please stop.

Has the size of this talk page ever reached crazy long proportions? Not for as long as I've seen it. It's always been incredibly light for a Wikipedia talk page. Please knock off this incessant archiving. All you're doing is stifling conversation.Tgm1024 (talk) 20:25, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi. Did you check how "quickly" this page is being archived? Ladislav Mecir (talk) 21:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

The talk page is archived automatically, I think, and the speed at which it is archived can be adjusted. I would support archiving less often. Benjamin (talk) 13:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Still no indication that any of the editors proposing the change checked how often the talk is being archived. Regarding the total length of the talk: you can get an idea by looking at the archive pages. For your information, relatively recently, the interval of automatic archivation was prolonged, making it 3 times longer. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 06:17, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

history section

This was first added here, and then added back here with some sources put in, so it appears as it does below:

Bitcoin combines three ideas that had been widely discussed (and implemented) in computer science, but never combined into a payment system. The core ideas of a chain of blocks, with each block cryptographically signing the previous, is based on the Merkle tree. The bitcoin network itself operates as a Distributed hash table Bitcoin mining is a Proof-of-work system, similar to the Hashcash anti-spam system. The key insight ofBitcoin insight was to combine these three concepts to form a self-sustaining, independent, decentralized payment system. Unlike other digital cash systems, such as DigiCash, Bitcoin sacrifices anonymity: all of the parties of every Bitcoin transaction is publicly known and recorded on the public ledger. But Bitcoin identities are not names, they are public keys: what is unknown is the which Bitcoin public keys are held by which humans or corporations. As such, Bitcoin provides pseudonymity, rather than true anonymity.

References

This is not summarizing reliable sources. The sources are somewhat iffy, and the core claim about combining three things remains unsourced. Jytdog (talk) 02:09, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

• Agreed Actually, the book claims that the ideas that bitcoin combined were essentially two: Hashcash by Adam Back and blockchain by Haber and Stornetta. According to the book, Haber and Stornetta incorporated Merkle trees to the blockchain as an efficiency improvement to be able to collect several documents into one block. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 03:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Section on intrinsic value is needed

In my opinion, the article should have a (short) section on a very important aspect of Bitcoin, namely, its inherent value or lack thereof. It seems to me to be one of the most important aspects of Bitcoin especially where recent reports about how the value of Bitcoin has dramatically increased will cause many to think of it as a speculative way to get rich quick.

Early money was gold and silver coins. Then there was paper money "backed by gold". Then "fiat" money backed by the stability of a nation's government and the strength of its economy and by responsible management of the money supply. While Bitcoin would seem to get high grades on the last item, regarding the 1st two items, it would seem to have no intrinsic value whatsoever. Bitcoin is a new type of fiat money, one might call it "unbacked fiat" money. This deserves a separate section and explicit sentences. There may be sentences here and there that imply something about intrinsic value, but the point in easily missed. Even in the Economics of Bitcoin article, sections 5, 6 and 7 don't explicitly address this fundamental point.

Bitcoin's blockchain technology offers many advantages, but intrinsic value, or lack thereof, is a real and relevant aspect. (Note: I'm neither long nor short Bitcoin.)HarvPhys (talk) 15:52, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

• Disagree
  • The term "intrinsic value" refers to the Intrinsic theory of value, which has been replaced by the Subjective theory of value in modern economy.
  • "It seems to me to be one of the most important aspects of Bitcoin" - you did not offer any support of independent reliable sources for this.
  • "recent reports about how the value of Bitcoin has dramatically increased will cause many to think of it as a speculative way to get rich quick" - you did not offer any support of independent reliable sources for this.
  • 'one might call it "unbacked fiat" money' - you did not offer any support of independent reliable sources for this. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 21:45, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

The issue of intrinsic value is clearly a most important issue, quite possible the 2nd most important after the topic of blockchain. If the editors wish to leave it out, fine. I will just note that if a section on intrinsic value is added, one can add the above note about "the Intrinsic theory of value, which has been replaced by the Subjective theory of value in modern econom[ics]" - one can note that cryptocurrencies take a significant step toward subjective value and away from intrinsic value. Regarding "how the value of Bitcoin has dramatically increased will cause many to think of it as a speculative way to get rich quick", the media has been headlining both the former and latter points recently. If I had added that line to the article, I would have been required to give supporting references, however, I was just noting for the editors a serious omission in the article for their consideration. The dramatic ups and downs of Bitcoin (and Ethereum) are due to lack of intrinsic value and further it's being "unbacked" by acknowledged government (I'll leave it to you to come up with a more erudite term than "unbacked"). Some references to the above comments are http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/12/bitcoin-falls-to-near-one-month-low-amid-bubble-concern-scaling-debate.html and http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/ethereum-price-crash-continues-bitcoin-moves-higher-cryptocurrency.html and https://secure.wealthdaily.com/127648?device=c&gclid=CK7pzr7vg9UCFYSKswodn1EF3Q and http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/07/strategist-tom-lee-weighs-sees-bitcoin-going-as-high-as-55000.html and http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/bitcoin-regulation-btcc-ceo-bobby-lee-says-rules-needed-for-new-asset-class.html and http://subscribe.outsiderclub.com/125206?device=c&gclid=CPOahcXyg9UCFUxLDQodOyQIaQ. This is all that needs to be said on the point I raise about the editors should explicitly address the point about intrinsic value and will comment no more, but instead leave it in the hands of the very capable editors of this article.HarvPhys (talk) 14:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment "one can note that cryptocurrencies take a significant step toward subjective value and away from intrinsic value" - that is provably false, in fact. There actually is an economic article written from the Intrinsic theory of value point of view. As you mentioned, you are interested in this heterodox theory and point of view. I bet you will be surprised what are the findings and how much they differ from what is "clear" to you. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 23:35, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment 'one can add the above note about "the Intrinsic theory of value, which has been replaced by the Subjective theory of value in modern econom[ics]"' - there is no need to do that. Wikipedia already contains this information at a much more appropriate place. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment "The dramatic ups and downs of Bitcoin (and Ethereum) are due to lack of intrinsic value" - That is patently wrong, in fact. If judging bitcoin using the Intrinsic theory of value, perhaps surprisingly for you, you should respect the findings made from this point of view and admit that bitcoin does have intrinsic value as found out, or dismiss the intrinsic theory of value as heterodox, in which case, your claim does not even make any sense. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 23:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment "recent reports about how the value of Bitcoin has dramatically increased will cause many to think of it as a speculative way to get rich quick" - this is a forecast made by you. As such, it should not be in Wikipedia per WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL policy. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 23:53, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

IOTA (Distributed Ledger Technology)

Hello Bitcoin people. An article was created today on IOTA (Distributed Ledger Technology). The topic has proved to be controversial, and the article itself is already protected three days. It looks like a reasonable discussion has begun at Talk:IOTA (Distributed Ledger Technology). People who are regular contributors to Bitcoin might have some knowledge in this area and might be able to contribute to the IOTA discussion. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 16:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

AfD nomination of wallets sub-page

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Comparison_of_bitcoin_wallets @Huon: you nominated Comparison_of_bitcoin_wallets for AfD and I guess you forgot to place a message on this main page for comments. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:55, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

There is no obligation, whatsoever, to place a notice on related article talk pages. None. Jytdog (talk) 05:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. I hadn't "forgotten" to place a message here; I saw no need to do so. There's a dedicated notification process for deletion discussions (see WP:DELSORT, and even that is not an obligation of the nominator); leaving messages at other articles' talk pages is not part of that process. Huon (talk) 08:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@Jytdog:, you have also deleted a similar list of wallets from the Ethereum Classic page as well, and that is under discussion over there. It seems there should be a discussion if a list of wallets is encyclopedic, as it will likely apply to many different cryptocurrency articles. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:28, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

None of this is about improving this article. Please see the header at the very top of this page. Jytdog (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I think your last point summarizes our difference of opinion. My opinion is that the wallet content that was likely moved off this main Bitcoin article to the sub-article due to WP:TOOBIG does affect the quality of this page. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 15:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140409025103/http://www.monetarism.co.uk/the-beginners-guide-to-bitcoin-everything-you-need-to-know/ to http://www.monetarism.co.uk/the-beginners-guide-to-bitcoin-everything-you-need-to-know/

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Bitcoin Cash treatment

This new bitcoin cash deserves some treatment on this page. Where to add it? I don't think "not to be confused with" at the top of the page is suitable.

Suggestions:

• Add to scalaing section
• Remove "not to be confused with" in header
• Add to history section?

Comments? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:30, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I think "Not to be confused with Bitcoin Cash." is good enough for now, WP:NOTNEWS and it's unclear what the situation will be in a week's time. Power~enwiki (talk) 18:39, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I was the one who added the hatnote. As Cash is a fork it literally shares all the history of Bitcoin up until that point, but the similar names mean that confusion may be present. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:45, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

All makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:25, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Section on transactions (2.2) incomprehensible

After reading and re-reading the part on transactions, it's still very unclear what it should say:

"Transactions are defined using a Forth-like scripting language.[7]:ch. 5 A valid transaction must have one or more inputs.[34] Every input must be an unspent output of a previous transaction. The transaction must carry the digital signature of every input owner. The use of multiple inputs corresponds to the use of multiple coins in a cash transaction. A transaction can also have multiple outputs, allowing one to make multiple payments in one go. A transaction output can be specified as an arbitrary multiple of satoshi. As in a cash transaction, the sum of inputs (coins used to pay) can exceed the intended sum of payments. In such a case, an additional output is used, returning the change back to the payer.[34] Any input satoshis not accounted for in the transaction outputs become the transaction fee.[34]"

I wish I could offer suggestions for improvement, but as a layman in this field, I'm not the right person to do that.