Talk:The Holocaust

In 2018 the United States Holocaust museum has the number of murdered during the time period of the holocaust at 17 million 6million Jews and 11 million others

I will put it at the end of the first sentence so people know that a place of Academia uses the 17 million for the Six Million Jews and 11 million others that were murdered during the Holocaust time period https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution Jack90s15 (talk) 04:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

put the source in it but it went below where it says World War II on the bottom so I put the link next to where I put the estimate if it needs fixing up and go ahead thank you still getting used to Wikipedia editing properlyJack90s15 (talk) 04:57, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

got the source in the right placeJack90s15 (talk) 05:05, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Jack, those details are already in the article. SarahSV ^(talk) 05:06, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

just wanted to put this at end of the first sentence or some one else could so people know that a place of Academia uses the 17 million number for the Six Million Jews and 11 million others that were murdered during the Holocaust time period Jack90s15 (talk) 05:18, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

ok!! I added it to the world war 2 deaths and it was approved ok thanks for the input Jack90s15 (talk) 05:23, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Someone had better beat it over to the articles on WW2 deaths - those articles mentioned that 300,000 Jews died in WW2. 2601:181:8301:4510:191:5960:F889:3423 (talk) 04:11, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Break

Please note: "murdered during the Holocaust time period" is not the same as "murdered in the Holocaust". The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which was cited above, provides estimates of "civilians and disarmed soldiers killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." They were the victims of Nazi war crimes, not victims of the Holocaust.

I will also use the USHMM as my source: "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators."

The Museum website also says: "During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived racial and biological inferiority: Roma (Gypsies), people with disabilities, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others)."

Note the wording. The Holocaust was primarily about the Jews. It also included other groups. But it is not correct to say there were 17 million victims of the Holocaust, including six million Jews. Not only is it not correct, the source cited does not make this claim. The Holocaust was about the Jews first. The academic sources are clear on this, and we should not amplify one academic's interpretation of the Holocaust in the opening of a Wiki article.

Mideastprofessor (talk) 14:08, 28 January 2019 (UTC)Mideastprofessor

I agree with Mideastprofessor. Stating this was "Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event" in an unqualified manner in our voice takes a side in an academic debate. There are such voices. And they should be represented - quite possibly in the lede - but it should be qualified to camp that classifies this way.Icewhiz (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Actually - the statement doesn't say that the larger event is necessarily named the "Holocaust" - the deaths in the Shoah took part in a larger event is without a doubt correct - that larger event is at the very least World War II. Pinging {{user|SlimVirgin]] as she's the one most recently who did wordsmithing here. Whether or not the "larger event" bit stays - the other sourced information that was removed should be restored - the cycle is "Bold-Revert-Discuss" ... not "Bold-Revert-Revert"... For further discussion of this point, it would be helpful if editors read the archives where this discussion has been held before. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:41, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

I swear to the gods ... @SlimVirgin: (I hate pinging...) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:43, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Those sentences mean that the Holocaust was a subset of the "larger event": "The Holocaust ... was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered some six million European Jews ... Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups ..." That seems pretty clear to me. In addition, the section "Definition" explains that the Holocaust is a contested term. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:44, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

(ec) It was a large axe - and it should have gone to talk per BRD. However the larger event we are alluding to is not WWII - "Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick",[8] as well as ethnic Poles and other Slavs, Soviet citizens, Soviet prisoners of war, political opponents, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting in up to 17 million deaths overall.[e]". This is not precise in my eyes - some scholars classify these together (as one related event) - some do not (e.g. seeing Soviet POWs as a separate issue - related only via WW2).Icewhiz (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

We do need to add academic historians who include the other groups as part of the Holocaust. At the moment (as I recall), we only have sources saying that, if they were included, it would produce a certain number of victims. The article needs to say which academic historians actually use the most expansive definition. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:33, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Niewyk & Nicosia have good coverage of this (in a short chapter) - including naming historians on each side of the genocide divide for most of the different groups here.Icewhiz (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. For the most expansive definition, they mention Michael Burleigh and Wolfgang Wippermann, The Racial State: Germany (1945) (p. 46); for Soviet POWs, Bohdan Wytwycky in The Other Holocaust, and Christian Streit and Jürgen Förster, The Policies of Genocide. For Polish and other Slav citizens: Bohdan Wytwycky, The Other Holocaust; Richard C. Lukas, The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Rule, 1939–1944, and Ihor Kamenetsky, Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe. For gay men, they cite Richard Plant, The Pink Triangle: The Nazi War Against Homosexuals and F. Rector, The Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals.

For inclusion of the Roma, they mention (p. 47) Sybil Milton, "Holocaust: The Gypsies", in S. Totten et al., Century of Genocide and Ian Hancock, "Responses to the Parrajmos: The Romani Holocaust", in Alan S. Rosenbaum, ed., Is the Holocaust Unique?, and themselves. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

As may be seen in N&N - acceptance classifying other groups as genocide varies quite a bit - Roma, T4, and gay men have a fairly high acceptance (I'd even go as far as to say this is the mainstream view), Jehovah's Witnesses possibly also. Political opponents (something done by many other totalitarian regimes) and Slavic groups (those not also in one of the prior groups) - are much less accepted as genocidal intent (atrocities are of course generally accepted by most historians - they differ more in interpretation than in numbers and facts). Icewhiz (talk) 07:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree. The question is whether it's a significant-minority or tiny-minority position to include the wider groups in a description of the Holocaust, as opposed to Nazi oppression. The sources N&N cite should be read to see whether they really do include those groups in their definition of the Holocaust. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:00, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

The Holocaust by bullets

• https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/28/world/europe/a-light-on-a-vast-toll-of-jews-killed-away-from-the-death-camps.html?module=inline
• http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/upload/minisites/ukraine/en/en_exposition1.htm Xx236 (talk) 13:21, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

GAN

Catrìona, GAN says: "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article on the article talk page prior to a nomination." The article isn't ready for any kind of review, in my opinion. Some of it is okay; several sections need to be checked. The big problem is that we don't know what it's about: the mainstream definition of the Holocaust or any of the broader ones? Why did you nominate it? SarahSV ^(talk) 06:00, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

it isn’t ready in my eyes either, and if the nominator doesn’t have most of the sources available..it’s putting an undue burden on those of us that do. At the least, it should have been brought up on the talk page. I do not have the time to devote to shepherding this article through GAN, that’s for sure. Ealdgyth - Talk 06:18, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

How do you know what sources I have or don't have? Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions is not a policy or guideline, just a help page. I nominated it because the objections to the last nomination seemed to have been resolved and it seemed more or less in line with the GA criteria. But, if there is opposition, I will just go edit some other page where there aren't editors accusing me of things. Catrìona (talk) 06:38, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Catrìona, the Instructions page is just that: instructions, not merely advice. The instruction to ask at the article talk page is there for a reason, and that reason has been demonstrated here: the regular contributors will likely know whether the article is ready to survive a GAN and what areas still need significant work if it does not. I didn't see any accusations, just the typical questions and issues that are to be expected when this situation occurs. I don't know why you expected anything else. Thank you for withdrawing your nomination. BlueMoonset (talk) 13:57, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

doctors' trial

Where it says:

Twenty-three senior physicians and other medical personnel were charged at Nuremberg, after the war, with crimes against humanity. They included the head of the German Red Cross, tenured professors, clinic directors, and biomedical researchers.

would it perhaps be more meaningful to talk instead about the number who were convicted, rather than all who were charged? (These constituted 15 who were convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Eight were acquitted of those charges, although one of those acquitted was convicted of being an SS member.) Such a change would require not only changing the number and changing "charged with" to "convicted of", but also checking that all the categories listed still apply to those who were convicted, including checking that plurals are used only where there are at least two identifiable people to whom they refer. --Money money tickle parsnip (talk) 07:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2019

On the targets, they forgot to add Jehovahs witnesses some of the people who were tortured even after the Holocaust 76.183.192.245 (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)