Talk:Jesus

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Frequently asked questions

Q1: What should this article be named?

A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname.

Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates?

A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format.

Q3: Did Jesus exist?

A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Wikipedia search the phrase is widely used in Wikipedia.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian?

A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally.^[1] For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine,^[2] Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."^[3]^[4]
Finally, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others?

A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc.

Q6: Why is the infobox so brief?

A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus?

A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions.

Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences?

A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians.

Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus?

A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion.

Q10: Why does the article state "[m]ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this?

A10: Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

^ R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
^ Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
^ Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
^ Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Jesus is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 25, 2013.

Article milestones
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January 17, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
June 2, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
August 3, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
November 2, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
May 3, 2005	Articles for deletion	Kept
October 6, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
December 15, 2005	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
April 14, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
November 27, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
April 21, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
August 21, 2007	WikiProject A-class review	Approved
July 12, 2009	Good article reassessment	Delisted
May 5, 2013	Good article nominee	Listed
May 28, 2013	Guild of Copy Editors	Copyedited
August 15, 2013	Featured article candidate	Promoted
Current status: Featured article

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Section sizes

Section size for Jesus (52 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	17,722	17,722
Name	1,745	3,834
Jesus Christ	2,089	2,089
Life and teachings in the New Testament	156	82,040
Canonical gospels	2,990	13,861
Authorship, date, and reliability	4,772	4,772
Comparative structure and content	6,099	6,099
Genealogy and nativity	8,424	8,424
Early life, family, and profession	5,863	5,863
Baptism and temptation	4,155	4,155
Public ministry	4,140	23,197
Disciples and followers	2,488	2,488
Teachings and miracles	13,392	13,392
Proclamation as Christ and Transfiguration	3,177	3,177
Passion Week	356	20,851
Activities in Jerusalem	4,413	4,413
Last Supper	4,447	4,447
Agony in the Garden, betrayal, and arrest	2,053	2,053
Trials by the Sanhedrin, Herod, and Pilate	6,155	6,155
Crucifixion and entombment	3,427	3,427
Resurrection and ascension	5,533	5,533
Early Christianity	5,377	5,377
Historical views	3,723	59,293
Judea and Galilee in the 1st century	3,230	3,230
Sources	8,396	8,396
Chronology	7,219	7,219
Historicity of events	1,248	21,650
Family	8,389	8,389
Baptism	1,363	1,363
Ministry in Galilee	4,883	4,883
Role	2,298	2,298
Passover and crucifixion in Jerusalem	2,663	2,663
After crucifixion	806	806
Portraits of Jesus	3,384	3,384
Language, ethnicity, and appearance	8,094	8,094
Christ myth theory	3,597	3,597
Religious perspectives	3,612	47,935
Christianity	7,324	7,324
Judaism's view	6,428	6,428
Manichaeism	2,098	2,098
Islam	14,348	14,804
Ahmadiyya Islam	456	456
Druze	2,007	2,007
Baháʼí Faith	4,186	4,186
Other	7,476	7,476
Artistic depictions	7,994	7,994
Associated relics	5,786	5,786
See also	651	651
Notes	42	42
References	42	24,619
Sources	24,577	24,577
External links	2,267	2,267
Total	257,560	257,560

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

"Topics that spark Wikipedia 'edit wars' revealed". BBC News. 18 July 2013. Retrieved 18 July 2013.
Caitlin Dewey (6 November 2015). "Demon cats, helicopter escapes and crayon colours: The most fascinating Wikipedia articles you haven't read". National Post. Retrieved 10 November 2015.
Omer Benkajob (27 April 2017). "Why Jimmy Wales' WikiTribune Won't Save the News". Haaretz. Retrieved 30 April 2017.
Richard Cooke (17 February 2020). "Wikipedia Is the Last Best Place on the Internet". Wired. Retrieved 27 February 2020.

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Added at the bottom

Jesus is a religious, cultural, worldwide icon, and is among the most influential people in human history. (Reference here) - User:Sleetimetraveller — Preceding undated comment added 12:53, 21 July 2021

Index to Talk:Jesus

I just discovered that the talk pages for this article have an index!! This is a pretty cool idea -- given the vast amount of information covered in the Talk pages, much of which I'm sure is repetitive(!), an index would be a super useful tool. However, I'm a professional indexer and...well...this isn't an index. It's more of a table of contents that just copied and linked the headings for all the talk sections. As such, it isn't nearly as useful as it might be (headings like "2d paragraph" are utterly meaningless, for example -- who knows what topic is really discussed in that section?). Does anyone know if it was autogenerated? If so, can it at least be made to ignore leading punctuation when sorting, or strip it out when generating the index so that for example section headings that are in quotes don't all end up at the beginning, but rather in their appropriate alpha location? Or can it be manually edited to improve it? Or (best of all) could I create a proper index to replace it? Failing all of that, could we at least change the name to something other than "Index" so nobody is misled into thinking it's something it isn't? Perhaps "Talk section headings list", that's more accurate. Bookgrrl ^holler/lookee here 16:49, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bookgrrl, it seems per the "code" that this is autogenerated by something called User:HBC Archive Indexerbot, or rather its' successor. Perhaps you can get some answers at User talk:Legobot. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:08, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bias on lead regarding historicity

The lead states that

... the only records of Jesus' life are contained in the Gospels.

which contradicts section on "Sources" where Josephus and Tacitus are presented as conteporary sources that mention basic events, including that he "died a violent death".

The lead should say

... the only detailed records of Jesus' life are contained in the Gospels.

that is qualify the statement with "detailed". Nxavar (talk) 08:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While I understand your objection, this seems okay to me, insofar as Josephus and Tacitus give us what I would characterize as "mentions" or "anecdotes." I think the current wording adequately conveys the impression that the Gospels are the only actual narrative of Jesus' life. Reasonable minds may differ, but to me, the difference in quality and quantity of the references makes the wording as it stands appropriate, but I am happy to listen to other proposals or to bow to consensus, should it be against me. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:30, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A "mention" or an "anecdote" is still a "record." These terms aren't mutually exclusive. Therefore, the claim "the only records of Jesus' life are contained in the Gospels" is unequivocally false. Thankfully, nobody in their right mind takes Wikipedia seriously. 2601:182:0:C580:6C62:D002:CA98:C7DA (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would disagree, but as I am apparently not in my right mind, feel free to disregard. Have a nice day, and happy Friday! Dumuzid (talk) 20:57, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia claims "the only records of Jesus' life are contained in the Gospels" when in reality there are extrabiblical records of the life of Jesus. Which means Wikipedia is engaging in misinformation. Now, why would Wikipedia spread misinformation and lies about Jesus? Who and what else is Wikipedia spreading misinformation about? This is just one of many reasons why nobody in their right mind takes Wikipedia seriously. Jesus is an important figure and this article is old; yet, the Wikipedia 'editors' are unwilling or incapable of correctly publishing accurate information about Him. What does that tell the readers who are of sound mind? 2601:182:0:C580:6C62:D002:CA98:C7DA (talk) 21:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Socking

Decades old, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ryn78 and User:Durova/Complex vandalism at Joan of Arc and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/AWilliamson. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49

[Hick_page_27-2] Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.

[ConrandHyersFooterBio-3] Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.

[4] Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

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