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This entire sub-section was removed here with the edit summary: "Doubtful notability. Half of the section is entirely unreferenced, widely unapropriate secondary source which is a ukrainian nationalist website. Please find an actual scholary source if you intend to reinstall these." Do other editors agree with this appraisal? Could other editors provide any better sources? Some of the material seems to be simple statements of fact which should be able to be easily sourced elsewhere. Without any of this material, there is no other substantive mention of Ukraine in the entire article? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:32, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for that clarification. I tend to agree with you about restoring it. I see that the IP editor concerned has been editing only since 11 April 2019 and geolocates to Russia. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:13, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ok with restoring it (thank you Michael for reminding me of the history -- I remember now -- needs to be better cited). I'm always leery of things that look like nationalist pushes, e.g. Tchaikovsky was really Ukrainian, as was Stravinsky, only no he was Polish, no American -- but the Ukraine connection with Tchaikovsky is genuine. Antandrus(talk)13:48, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ukraine did in fact not exist as a political entity at the time. Rather, it was a subdivision of the Russian Empire. Mentioning a region despite it not having independence at the time that it was mentioned is allowable and helps narrow down the region. If I wanted to say "Tchaikovsky visited the region between Moldavia and the Sea of Azov inhabited by the Ukrainians," it is much easier to say "Ukraine." Lavaminer99 (talk) 22:32, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia must be true. Ukraine and Ukrainians did not exist at that time. This is an artificially created state. So remove the fake from Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.70.56.204 (talk) 22:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
IP it is difficult to take you seriously at all, when you remove an entire section from an article repeatedly, shout in caps on the talk page, and repeat the same thing over and over again. First of all, Ukraine was not first "created by the USSR", see Ukrainian People's Republic. Either way, the Ukrainian region has always been home to the Ukrainian ethnic group; please refer to Lavaminer's comment above "If I wanted to say "Tchaikovsky visited the region between Moldavia and the Sea of Azov inhabited by the Ukrainians," it is much easier to say "Ukraine."" – and this is indeed how secondary reliable sources refer to the event. You need to provide secondary reliable sources (that apply to Tchaikovsky's life specifically) which align with your perspective here, otherwise your comments will not go anywhere. Aza24 (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See Aza24's comment above, please: we need reliable secondary sources or we can't take you seriously.
I can just as easily produce any number of historical Ottoman Empire maps that demonstrate, as reliably as your argument does, that Turkey, Bulgaria, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Macedonia, etc. etc. are "fake". Antandrus(talk)23:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is ridiculous. First see what your source is. This is nonsense of a Ukrainian nationalist. Sheer nonsense that has nothing to do with the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.70.56.204 (talk) 23:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC) I don't want to argue further. Let all English Wikipedia see your shame. And remember, Tchaikovsky did not visit the nonexistent state of Ukraine. Little Russia is part of the Russian Empire.[reply]
Ukraine existed long before 1862. It appears on maps and in literature in the 17th and 18th centuries, for example the map of Ukraine by Cartographer Johann Baptist Homann circa 1720 (Title: Ukrania quae et Terra Cosaccorum cum vicinis Walachiae, Moldaviae, Minorisq., Tartariae Provinciis exhibita) 50.101.9.121 (talk) 18:45, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Pronunciation
At present the first sentence of the lead is clogged up with six different guides to pronouncing the composer's name. This is not very welcoming to visitors to te page. May I suggest we move most of the variations into a footnote. A comment here seems to me very much to the point. Tim riley talk23:25, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The English IPA seems unnecessary because there is no uncertaintay or doubt about the pronunciation of "Tchaikovsky". The transliteration of Russian adds nothing, and the Russian pronunciation ought to be placed in a footnote, as suggested. IMO the Cyrillic script of his full name is worthwhile having in the 1st sentence. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MB, I suggest we leave this thread open for a week and then if nobody has expressed dissenting views I'll do as discussed above (unless you prefer to do it.) Does that seem sensible? Tim riley talk21:20, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Michael Bednarek and Tim riley, I concur that the inclusion of the Russian transliteration is pointless and have removed it. The English IPA may have a place however, as those not familiar with the composer would find a rather odd name to pronounce. Aza24 (talk) 22:46, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Regrettably the intro has declined severely in quality since this article was featured.
It is overly long and discursive, while also no longer containing a proper summary of basic details such as the composer's major works and styles or innovations.
The second paragraph in particular is full of dubious, subjective statements, with not a single citation to be seen. For instance, "The principles that governed melody, harmony and other fundamentals of Russian music ran completely counter to those that governed Western European music". This is too vague and smacks of over-exaggeration. Russian music still followed a tonal system, so no, it wasn't "completely counter" to Western melody and harmony. I'm sure it was counter *in some respects*, but which? And it's followed by, "and [this] caused personal antipathies that dented Tchaikovsky's self-confidence". What does "personal antipathies" mean here? Isn't this claim highly subjective? It sounds like original research. What is the evidence? And why is it important enough to be in the lead?
I recommend that the intro is reworked by an expert and the article marked as such. I think a lot of it should be removed, the second paragraph especially, or at least marked as dubious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denziloe (talk • contribs) 02:10, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: I don't think the article has fallen that short of the FA criteria. It seems like a lot of nonsense was added to the lead over the years since its promotion. Aza24 (talk) 22:24, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, after rereading the lead, it seems fine to me. It actually rather elegantly describes the position Tchaikovsky was in and his life struggles. Are there some specific concerns you could point out? Aza24 (talk) 23:14, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not goot at articulating prose issues, the phrasing of the article just seems difficult to understand and unnecessarily convoluted to me. I will put a pointer on FAR talk. buidhe00:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Image needs a consensus
The lede image needs to be decided on so it stops randomly changing, this is after all, a featured article. The current image was put in place here with seemingly no request or explanation on the talk page. After scrolling through the history, 4 or 5 images have been put in and then taken out without much, if any discussion. This image was used for a while, but in my opinion the 1893 portrait by Nikolay Kuznetsov is by far the best choice. (And it seems to have been used on this article for a while as well) Tchaikovsky was active until his death and this painting being made in the last year of his life is representative of his 6th symphony, arguably his Magnum opus. Aza24 (talk) 23:04, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky vs Petr Ilich Chaykovskiy
I reverted a move from Pyotr to Petr as it was done without discussion or stating a reason. As this article is an FA, I expect that the name was properly vetted by editors and that a move should be discussed first. Pikavoom (talk) 08:07, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not worried in the slightest, however felt a note explaining this was necessary as I am 100% clueless here on the correct rendering the name and reverted solely on this being an FA. Cheers. Pikavoom (talk) 07:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why is there no information box?
Beethoven, Bach and Handel have the information box. But then most of the other major composers do not. Like Brahms, Chopin, Mozart, Haydn, and Debussy. Since when are the great classical composers not worthy of an information box? Like why? Cj7557 (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But my question is when did simple convenience to the reader become obsolete? Is it not convenient to see the date of birth and death (and age of death) right there? Not to mention the college that they attend. Spouses and children. And a whole bunch of other things. Cj7557 (talk) 00:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Cj7557: I am largely impartial to the conflict so I can't give you the answer you seek. The link I put above summarizes the opposition's side well. If other page watchers would like to chime in, they should feel free to. Aza24 (talk) 00:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus on infoboxes is by individual article. They are neither required nor prohibited. This issue was severe enough to lead to an arbitration case some years ago. To me, they are redundant with information in the lead, which is better nuanced, but lots of people disagree. Antandrus(talk)01:20, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Tchaikovsky did not want his voice to be recorded. Those who pretend to respect his music should also respect his will. Wikipedia does not do this in this case.
Wikipedia's will is to donate money to Wikipedia. I ignore this request just as Wikipedia ignores the will of Tchaikovsky.
--2003:D3:DF2C:4C0E:2809:2D29:9C76:642E (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose – The rest of the world knows his name as Pyotr Tchaikovsky – what's your evidence here for such a statement? I've never heard someone say "Pyotr Tchaikovsky" – I've only only "Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky" or just "Tchaikovsky". While not a flawless experiment, a simple google search of "Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky" vs "Pyotr Tchaikovsky" reveals 1.4 mil and 300k results respectively... seeing no reason to move. Aza24 (talk) 20:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No opinion - but Google Ngramsshows "Peter Tchaikovsky" as consistently more popular than "Peter Ilich Tchaikovsky", and "Pyotr Tchaikovsky" as slightly more popular than "Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky" until 2007. --Pokechu22 (talk) 20:32, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It's easier to pronounce without the atavism, see Occam's razor. All the classical composers are mentioned with patronymic by Russians which doesn't mean much for the English-speaking world: Modest Petrovich, Nikolai Andreevich, Shostakovich and so on. Thus, it's just a leftover of Tchaikovsky's American popularity in the XIX century which led to a kind of cultural appropriation of his patronymic and not a dogma forever. BTW, it kind of implies all the other Russian composers are not as "respected" in the West (because the patronymic use meant "respect") just by not being as popular which is true but the approach is unreasonable because the whole patronymics-as-respect concept for Tchaikovsky is very archaic: "We, the public, love you so much that we accept all the additional issues because of your patronymic". It's ridiculous because he's a composer, not a Russian language teacher. There's another Tchaikovsky on Operabase but P. Tchaikovsky is good enough for them, Pyotr Tchaikovsky can be good enough for Wikipedia. Tintin-tintine (talk) 16:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dębno coat of arms Before 2007, 'Pyotr Tchaikovsky' was more popular use that 'Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky'. These 13 years only prove the effect of Wikipedia. His first name won't change, the bold first three words "Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky" won't change. It's just about the URL (of his and his brother's name) and title. Moreover, his connection additional connection to Russia through his aggressive anti-user-friendly patronymic in the title is derogative for his international legacy. Like a woman in 1 Kings 3:26 the infamous "Mother Russia" keepers has to give up Tchaikovsky's patronymic here. BTW, according to Russian Wikipedia, his ancestors had been using the Polish COA of Lithuanian origin. The haters of Russia will make up whatever is possible — from racism to a lack of feminism — to deny his international genius. His brand is safer in Anglosphere with a more "Polish-Lithuanian" tag. Truth hurts. Tintin-tintine (talk) 20:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
How on earth can you have an ENTIRE page on Tchaikovsky and NOT MENTION the Nutcracker ballet??!!
Seriously folks - his MOST BELOVED music. Most people have never heard of the 1812 Overture. Please, someone, don't be so pretentious and snobbish that you completely ignore this huge gift to the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.220.152.163 (talk) 18:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. The version of this article from 2009 as promoted to Featured Article mentions it, and other well-known compositions, in the 1st sentence. (Apparently, it's easier to mess with an FA's vital content than to rationalize its citation mechanism.) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 05:26, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
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