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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 174.214.49.219 (talk) at 01:36, 22 January 2023 (→‎No planes no tanks: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Taiwan is a country?

Taiwan is not recognized as a country by the UN, it should be a de facto country to avoid bias. Thehistorianisaac (talk) 12:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This argument has been re-iterated at this talk page dozens of times. The consensus is that Taiwan is a country, regardless of its political status. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why was the decision like that? Thehistorianisaac (talk) 14:33, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the threads about it you will see why we can't keep rehashing the same points over and over again. Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One of the key reasons that Taiwan is regarded as a country is that it is closer to a rump state than a breakaway state. Most other de facto states originated by seceding from a larger state. Taiwan has never seceded from anyone. Indeed, Taiwan's government was a founding member of the United Nations, and its constitution dates back to 1912. There are other elements at play here, including the controversy over the "retrocession" of Taiwan from Japan to the ROC, and the democratisation of Taiwan which has allowed citizens to vote for the country's leadership. Furthermore, Taiwan is far more powerful and influential than other de facto states in terms of politics, economy, culture, etc. Taiwan's population is also relatively large; around the same as North Korea, which also has a similar "pariah state" status in East Asia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 22:27, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is true, but with the point that by using “country”, as sources do, the English writer avoids engaging in the question of political status, rump state vs breakaway state. “State” carries legal tones. “Nation” carries tones of population identity. “Country” connects to the land in a way the is independent of the humans there. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Time for a FAq? Slatersteven (talk) 13:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why an FAQ when there is a whole article of explanation at Political status of Taiwan? SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:37, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It takes less time to type. Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The description of Taiwan as a country is to provide justification for a formal declaration of independence from China. There is no consensus in reliable sources for use of this term. There is considerable discussion about this in the archives. However, there has been little interest among uninvolved editors in joining the discussion. TFD (talk) 22:36, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Taiwan doesn't need to declare independence from China. At least, not from the PRC. From the ROC, maybe. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That would be interesting, because the ROC would then control no territory but claim jurisdiction over mainland China. I wonder how many countries, other than the newly created Republic of Taiwan, would recognize it. TFD (talk) 00:03, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That would basically make the ROC little more than a government-in-exile, although the status of Kinmen and Matsu will be important-ish. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 04:01, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources use the term, a lot. “Consensus in reliable sources” is not a sensible phrase, unless you are looking for sources explicitly discussing consensus. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:40, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The UN does not recognise countries, so the statement “Taiwan is not recognized as a country by the UN” is a waste-of-time statement.
The entire problem here seems to be that Chinese seems unable to translate the nuanced differences between “country”, “nation”, and “state”. Look at country. How would you translate “country”, in contrast to “nation”, into Chinese? SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:45, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that each of these terms have several meanings. When we select words, we should do so with the purpose that they inform readers, rather than mislead them. We wouldn't say for example that Massachusetts is a state in North America, although we would say it is a state in the United States. That's because the second phrasing implies that it is a subnational unit, whatever it is called. TFD (talk) 16:39, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which is appropriate because Massachusetts is a subnational unit. Taiwan is a national unit, whatever it is called. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:42, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the Chinese language wikipedia, the consensus seems that the "republic of china" article is the same article that describes "Taiwan" as far as nation goes. There may be a separate article about the island of Taiwan, but there is no article like in the English language wikipedia article about the Republic of China (1912–1949) where it specifically indicates "1911 to 1945" on the article, which makes the assumption that the Republic of China, as a country, does not exist anymore. However this is not the case, and Taiwan is still officially the Republic of China. I believe it may be necessary to merge the two articles Taiwan and Republic of China (1912–1949) as Taiwan province is not the only jurisdiction the ROC government has, which includes Kinmen and Matsu of Fujian province and several other islands in provinces such as Hainan. As independence of Taiwan province itself is a politically contentious topic in Taiwan itself, I think it's in bad faith to separate the articles about the Republic of China and Taiwan, as the Republic of China is Taiwan. In the Chinese language wikipedia, the Republic of China is recognized as a country, and it shows both the officially claimed land, and officially administered land (Taiwan, Kinmen, Matsu, penghu, etc). I think this is a far more objective way to portray these articles and more appropriate for wikipedia. This is true in both the Mandarin language Wikipedia and the cantonese language wikipedia. For the pre 1949 era of the ROC, this is the article known as 中華民國大陸時期, which talks about the history of the Republic of China during the era.

I think this makes a strong case for merging the articlesTaiwan and Republic of China (1912–1949) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:101:f000:740::146 (talk) 15:28, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi IP, the 1912-1949 article is a history article such as the ones you note exist on the other language Wikipedias. If you read this article you will see that it quite clearly states that the formal name remains Republic of China. CMD (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You may misunderstand the purpose for the existence of a separate topic as the Republic of China (1912–1949), which referred to the historical period of a continuing existed sovereign state, not about what the regime was end or ceased to be sovereignty after 1949. The seperate article was created to differentiate the distinct essences of two main historical stages over the same state before it was centered on island territories and not Chinese mainland, oriented towards the focus of Taiwan itself rather than being "legitimate China". For instance, the Byzantine Empire was a continuum to the former Roman Empire, people don't merge them as the same regime within the same topic, despite the fact that the people of Byzantine continued to regard themselves as "Romans" and the regime was called "Roman Empire" by the imperial authority and most of its contemporary surrounding countries. LVTW2 (talk) 12:57, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

developed country

Taiwan is designated as a high-income and an advanced economy by the World Bank and the IMF, respectively. But it doesn't mean that the country is a developed country per WP:SYNTHESIS. We need to change the description as "an advanced and a high-income economy designated by the World Bank and the IMF, respectively" or completely delete it. 117.53.77.84 (talk) 07:17, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lede of developed country says: "A developed country (or industrialized country, high-income country, more economically developed country, advanced country) ..." As you said, the first and second sources given in this article use the terms "high-income economy" and "advanced economy". The use of synonyms is fine; no change needs to be made. There is no synthesis being made, unless you are contending that "high-income economy" and "advanced economy" is not equivalent to "high-income country" and "advanced country", or that we need to quote terminology verbatim from sources instead of paraphrasing. Yue🌙 09:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Yue First, World Bank high-income economy are not equivalent to developed countries. There are developing high-income economies like Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, The Bahamas etc.. Second, some economies in transition within central and eastern Europe, like the Baltic states, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia etc. are also included in the IMF advanced economies list. Third, the UNCTAD doesn't include Taiwan as a developed country. See this. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 12:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The exclusion of Taiwan in the UNCTAD does not prove anything for your points, as everyone knows well that it was largely political reason rather than the economic criterion or qualification as a developed country for Taiwan to be omitted in such group when Taiwan is not even a member of the UN... And you are trying to use a UN affiliated organisation's list to deny a general knowledge when the subject is not even part of it, isn't it self-contradictory? Seabourn101 (talk) 15:21, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Although Taiwan is not a UN member state, it is designated as "Taiwan, Province of China" (code 158) by the UN. Also, it is designated as a developing economy by the UNCTAD and the UNSD. 117.53.77.84 (talk) 15:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's what the IMF, World Bank and Asian Development Bank have already done. So what are you trying to prove? these economic souces are less reliable than the UNCTAD? Seabourn101 (talk) 15:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, Singapore as a commonly recognised sovereign state and as a UN member, is also not listed in the UNCTAD list, does it prove Singapore disqualify as a developed country? Seabourn101 (talk) 15:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1. The IMF and the World Bank don't designate developed countries. They just designate "advanced economies" and "high-income economies". These are not equivalents to developed countries. The UNCTAD actually designates developed and developing countries and Taiwan is included in the UNCTAD's developing countries list.
2. Singapore is also included in the UNCTAD's developing countries list. I admit that another talk should be started in talk:Singapore. 117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please present a direct link from the UNCTAD's developing countries list if it explicitly indicates both Singapore and Taiwan as "developing". From the webpage you attached in previous comment and by my own search, it never mentioned these two states as developing countries, please show where you information came from? Seabourn101 (talk) 16:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
From what I found, this is the clear list I can find, The Least Developed Countries Report 2021 [1], in which Republic of Korea is also included in developing country... Umm, I am getting confused the list you worshiped so much was even trustworthy? lol Seabourn101 (talk) 16:15, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1. The UNCTAD says "The developing economies broadly comprise Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean, Asia witout Israel, Japan, and the Republic of Korea, and Oceania without Australia and New Zealand." so Singapore and Taiwan are also designated as developing economies by the UNCTAD.
2. The UNSD and the UNCTAD have designated the Republic of Korea (South Korea) as a developed economy since 2022. See UNCTAD/STAT/CLASSIF/2022/1 CLASSIFICATION UPDATE – APRIL 2022 and World Economic Situation and Prospects as of mid-2022 (download pdf). 117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So you meant that Korea suddenly becomes a developed country only since April 2022 when it has been recognized as one for at least 3 decades? From what I get from the information, the UNCTAD list does not evidence any nowadays condition for a country's development, it is largely outdated and frankly no principle was given to categorise country's economic status. Seabourn101 (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And How come I said that UNCTAD list "frankly given no principle to categorise country's economic status"? As many Eastern European countries such as Hungary, Poland, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania, were classified as "developing economies" per the IMF, were categorised as "developed countries" in the UNCTAD list. I don't know what criterion was used by the UNCTAD to create such a list, but it doesn't seem very convincing for me, unless you can show some transparent standards adopted by the UN to judge who is belonged to developed club, and who is not? Or they simply put every EU members into developed club without any assessment?Seabourn101 (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
IP, I'm not sure that you understand the sources you're using and your argument is a word jumble. Can you try again but in a more concise way? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First, I perfectly understand the sources I'm using. Second, several reports published by the United Nations, including the World Economic Situation and Prospects use the UNSD/UNCTAD's developed/developing economies classification. That's why we can't simly ignore it. 117.53.77.84 (talk) 20:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about you bring the same issue and supporting materials to talk:Singapore to see how other editors there respond, before that the phrase will stay the same. Seabourn101 (talk) 13:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Before making a claim that Taiwan is disqualified to be included in the developed country group, could you clarify further about your viewpoint that the IMF's list of developed economies is in different definition with the UN list? They may have different criterian to sort countries into the group that's what I agree with, but your argument regarding the UN list that is different meaning from other similar financial institutions' reports really confused me. LVTW2 (talk) 13:18, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there a HDI figure for Taiwan when the figures are not official?

Putting some footnote shouldn't validate its placement, which puts it on equal standing with the HDI figures of other countries that are officially calculated by the UNDP. There is officially no HDI figures for Taiwan, it is not 19th placed, and should be left blank. 121.172.191.59 (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Minor spelling error

When talking about Taiwan's name in the Asian Development Bank, it is written as "Taipei,China" in this article. There is a missing space and it should be "Taipei, China". ArchangelGabriel0723 (talk) 20:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done: The typo was left intentionally by other editor(s) to maintain consistency with the website of the Asian Development Bank. However, I corrected the typo because leaving it is counterintuitive. My edit summary was: "Responding to a request on the talk page. There is no need to repeat verbatim typos that sources have retained, especially without an accessible note explaining why to the reader."

No planes no tanks

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