Talk:False accusation of rape

Requested move 21 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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False accusation of rape → False allegation of rape – (was False allegations of rape) – This article is really about allegations not accusations. Looking through the text, "allegation" or "allegations" appears 62 times, "accusation" or "accusations" only appears 30 times (including the title and leading definition). The list of references, further reading, and external links include 3 instances of "accusations" (and those are only from news media sources), but 20 instances of "allegation" or "allegations". Most of the instances of "allegation(s)" are from peer reviewed sources. The two most cited articles barely use the term "accusation", it shows up 6 times in Rumney (2006) and once in Lisak (2010), but they use the term "allegation" 171 times and 50 times respectively.

References

Ian m (talk) 00:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC) ; edited 08:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• Why switch from WP:SINGULAR to plural? Otherwise, the two forms seem pretty synonymous in common usage. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree that it should be singular, especially because the article is currently written in a way which defines and clarifies the idea of a "false accusation", not highlighting or listing particular examples. I don't see a substantial difference in the two meanings, except that accusation implies more agency and certainty on the part of the accuser, while allegation faintly implies that an assertion is being made passively and without facts to support it. When we switch to the singular form, "False allegation"" sounds worse to my ear than "False accusation", but I'm not enough of a linguist to say exactly why. I think the title should stay how it is. RoxySaunders (talk) 01:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I hadn't thought about plural vs singular. I was mostly going with references which nearly all use the plural. But the singular form makes sense.

I looked a bit more into the distinction between "allegation" and "accusation". I think the difference comes down to the the legal definitions of the two words. An accusation is a formal charge made by a prosecuting attorney or by a grand jury indictment, while an allegation is a statement that hasn't been proven yet. Since this article describes individuals making statements to the police or other authorities, then the term allegation would apply, but accusation wouldn't. Ian m (talk) 21:18, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose; our article on the concept of Accusation (which, I will disclose, I substantially wrote), cites sources broadly defining the term in both legal and non-legal terms; our article on the concept of Allegation (on which I have worked very little) provides an entirely legal reading of the term. BD2412 T 05:14, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
• Also leaning oppose per comments from RoxySaunders and BD2412. The terms seem synonymous in common usage, and the current form seems a little less artificial or stilted. — BarrelProof (talk) 17:43, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

References

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reporting rates

@Bilorv: the article cited specifically says that the 10% metric for Canada is inaccurate, can we remove that line or use a different source? —blindlynx (talk) 21:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

How about this edit? Removes the sentence as the other two say similar things, and are reasonable summary statistics for most of the current body of the article. Also reorders since the sentence on methodologically uncertainty seems like it should be presented after the stats. — Bilorv (talk) 21:17, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

that works—blindlynx (talk) 21:39, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Rolled back some changes + scope question

I've reverted some changes made to the lede in the past few weeks, including the removal of "men" from the paragraph about privileged people making false accusations, the more confusing wording in the first sentence, and the elaboration on the consequences of false accusation in eg. the Jim Crow South.

At what point did we decide that incorrect IDs of perpetrators of real rapes fell into this article? That is not consistent with what the sources say. The Central Park jogger case obviously relates heavily to some of the cases we discuss in this article that are straight-up false, but sources that talk about false accusation generally use it to refer to fictitious crimes. [Edit: Oh, welp, I see I mentioned this a year ago...] –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:22, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello I’m the one who originally added the paragraph about race and privileged people making false accusations under an IP. I tweaked it because it was inaccurate to the sources I pulled to support it. All the sources go in detail about incidents of white women in the United States making false accusations against black men which led to the mass murder/rape of innocent black men and women, and an explanation on how it was/is a prevalent problem.

Also my second bit on the first paragraph isn’t referencing an incorrect identification of a rapist. Saying that you have been raped (Without specifying a perpetrator( and claiming someone did a rape should be distinguished as they’re both statements used in false accusations June Parker (talk) 06:41, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't follow your second point. What I am pointing out is that while sources often note that wrongful conviction of innocent people for the perpetration of a real crime committed by someone else is a racialized issue that bears similarities to false accusations of a crime that did not occur, they are not the same thing. Sources talk about false accusations of rape as accusations of crimes that did not occur.

I also wouldn't say "justification for prejudice"? Surely it is more appropriate to say "malicious intent" given that the accusations described in that section would not be made if prejudice were not already present. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@June Parker: Wait, I just realized, is the distinction you're making that you think it's a "false accusation of rape" if someone says they were raped but doesn't accuse anybody? That is also not consonant with the sources. A false accusation of rape occurs when someone accuses a person of a rape that never happened. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Roscelese: Specifically to your second reply, I'm afraid your stuffing words in my mouth. But this can be solved if we fix the introductory sentence since it's creating too much confusion. The initial definition before I came in was "Woman claiming she was raped when she was not" which like you said is not consitent with the rest of the article. I changed it to include "Person A claims person B raped" which can also be read as "Person A claims person B raped Person C" or "Person A claims person B raped them", all situations concerning a blatant lie. I think we can exclude the initial definition. June Parker (talk) 20:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@June Parker: Sources indicate that a false accusation of rape is one where no crime has occurred, not one where a crime occurred and the wrong person was identified. What is your reason for changing the article to say the latter? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:43, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Roscelese: Because I was mistaken and thought that's what the sources indicated, but I looked into it and realized it is not. Which is why I removed that statement ages ago. June Parker (talk) 21:50, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Regarding "prejudice" inserted into the lead section, the idea is unreferenced, and is not a summary of existing article prose. We need to have a cited source discussing the concept of prejudice. Also, let's see whether the literature characterizes false accusations as "malicious". Binksternet (talk) 22:01, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Binksternet: Hello, I had been asked you to come to the talk page already to discuss this. You are repeatedly reverting the page's contents to a version that is not backed up by the sources used. For one false accusations are defined in this article as when a specific perpetrator is named for a rape case when they are not guilty and when there was no rape, not when a person claims to be a victim when they are not without naming a perp, which is what I was discussing with @Roscelese: already. Secondly the "Analysis" you removed is also referenced by the sources used. Again i asked you to come here and discuss why you felt the need to remove it but instead you attempted to edit war. June Parker (talk) 22:06, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Can you supply a citation for the bit mentioning prejudice? Binksternet (talk) 22:09, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Binksternet: The existing citations (That I pulled from lower down in the article in the "Historical racism" area) go into detail about how racism and hatred of black people allowed American society to pereptrate ridiculous false accusations against black men and turn a blind eye to the violence it results in.

I also do not appreciate how you are changing the first sentence into something that does not represent the contents of the sources without going to the talk page first, and still trying to ream me in about properly cited material. June Parker (talk) 22:28, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The part I'm concerned about is you shoehorning "prejudice" and "malicious" in the lead section. This is a violation of the guideline WP:LEAD which says we should not introduce new ideas in the lead section, and that the lead section must be a summary of the article body. Your very first effort at this article introduced the idea of privilege in the lead section, without any mention of privilege in the article body. Please take a good look at the WP:LEAD guideline to see why this cannot continue.

Regarding "prejudice", the word racism is far more appropriate here. In any case, these ideas must be fleshed out in the article body before they appear in the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 00:03, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

@June Parker: (edit conflict) Your edits are making the article more confusing. If you agree with me that wrongful conviction/misidentification of the perpetrator of a real crime does not belong in this article, there is no need for the rambly "particular person, particular person" in the lede. I do not feel that the previous version - "A false accusation of rape happens when a person says they have been raped, but in fact no rape has occurred" - was unclear. Do you believe that it gives the mistaken impression that someone simply saying they were raped, without naming a perpetrator, constitutes a "false accusation"? @Binksternet: I guess I see where you're coming from about "malicious intent," but it seems relevant (and very sourceable) that cases like the Emmett Till case or the Scottsboro Boys case are not the typical false accusation case that the criminology literature is talking about. Even if, say, the purported white victims in the Scottsboro Boys case may have been chiefly motivated by their desire to escape suspicion as prostitutes rather than to hurt and target the boys specifically, they still chose to falsely accuse them of a crime that carried a death sentence, to accuse them rather than any of the white men present, and to play on the public's racism in pursuit of a conviction. Cases like these are a distinct subset of the general topic. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:15, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Regarding malice, the criminal law textbook Practical Aspects of Rape Investigation says there are three motives for false accusations of rape, only one of which is malicious. The listed motives are: "providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention." It is not accurate to characterize all of the false accusations as malicious. Binksternet (talk) 00:26, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

First off, Binksternet, privilege and prejudice are not new ideas because it is explained (In detail) in the sources used when the article shifts to the topic of Jim Crow and historical racism. I yanked those sources from the bottom to the top when I added that paragraph. Prejudice is a parent term to racism, (The way it's used in english today) and I don't see a reason to not say it if it's already in the article.

I won't be doing this any time soon, but consider I plan to pull some sources from another page to bring up how aristocrates in Ancient Rome would dub consensual relationships between their daughters and men they did not like as "Rape", and considered them eloping as rapture. If anyone does something similar, drawing attention to an era in history where disatantaged men were victim of false accusations made by powerful women, it would most likely have nothing to do with race but class or faith. The Jim Crow section would have to evolve and it would no longer just be about race. Prejudice is a parent term to racism (The way it's used today) so it allows the article to include such stuff should that happen. But concerning the content we have now, the reason I said "Malicious" is because if the accusation is being made out of spite for the accused and their race or social status, how could that not be malicious? That would make it fall under something akin to "Seekign revenge", like how Carolyn Bryant claimed Emmett Till raped her out of vengence for him being black, and existing near her.

Secondly, Roscelese, I do agree with you and I do agree some of my edits may have causes needless confusion. I do believe the original statement creates that impression, I thought you were challenging me because you thought I was trying to keep that. I don't believe that statment is accurate to the sources but we can hammer out what should exist now, or tell me if I'm wrong. June Parker (talk) 00:56, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I got to jump in here. @Roscelese:, you keep insisting that a false accusation of rape is "false accusation of rape occurs when someone accuses a person of a rape that never happened". That is not the only definition. In Saunders 2012, the author describes how that definition is not so clear cut, and that false allegations can be lumped into two categories--the false complaint and the false account. The false complaint matching your definition, and the false account being an account that has varying levels of truth which may include rape. While the false complaint is quite rare, the false account is much more common. The author cites a case where a young woman was raped but deliberately misidentified the assailant because they were afraid of the actual rapist. This was a false allegation even though the rape actually happened and the police believed the victim. Saunders goes on the state that it's important to describe and distinguish between false complaints and false accounts because law enforcement lump the two together which leads to higher estimates of false allegations, even though everyone agrees that the cases of false accounts are fairly rare.

In Rumney & McCartan 2017, they describe seven different categories of false allegations, which includes "mistaken identification by witnesses. In this category of case, a rape has occurred but the wrong person is identified as the perpetrator." See the Central Park Five case. They cite data in that show that mistaken identity contributed to roughly 67% of the false convictions of sexual assault, while perjury or false accusation contributed to only 45% of false convictions. Ian m (talk) 05:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ian m: This is just a conversation about defining the terms and scope of the article. I can see how the (even) rare(r) case of "real crime, deliberate misidentification" would fall into this bucket, but I still don't agree that literally any wrongful conviction is a "false accusation of rape" and the sources do not generally back that up. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:22, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Is the part about USA racism in the summary warranted?

This article is about an international issue, I'm not sure this special case should figure in the article summary. What do you think ? MonsieurD (talk) 12:50, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The Jim Crow laws and lynching of black people in the U.S. are a significant historical topic; to give an example, To Kill a Mockingbird surely has to be one of the most famous English-language literary works there are. If there's other moral outrages predicated around false rape accusations on this scale then I'm sure we'd like them to be covered in the article. Incidentally, it's an oversight, in my view, that To Kill a Mockingbird is not currently mentioned in the article. — Bilorv (talk) 16:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah it doesn;t make much sense. Obviously black men being falsely accused is the most recent example, but "Rape" has always been subjective in the way its defined legally. Often rape laws permit actual (Moral) rape to be commited by powerful men or against oppressed women, while (Legally) it's solely defined as any interaction between powerful women and oppressed men.

I see in an original edit someone said something like "False accusations of rape can be used as a weapon by priviledged women against unpriviledged men" then cited white women and black men as an example. Can we go back to that? 2603:8080:F600:27A2:2CF7:CC46:22BE:190D (talk) 19:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Can you give other significant historical examples (with references) of false accusations of rape being "used as a weapon by privileged women against unprivileged men"? — Bilorv (talk) 21:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I can come back and commit to finding sources later, but for starters:

1. When India was colonized by the British, they used the same arguement. It ranged from "The big scary indians are going to rape all the white women if we don't put them in their place" to "The evil uncivilized indians are raping and abusing their own women, we should replace them, because it's automatically better if we're the ones doing it". The stereotype is exploited in bad faith by racist people even today.

2. Alot of African countries that were invaded by Europeans, as well as the South African Apartheid, ran under the same ideas. Falsely perpetuated fear about Africans raping european women when it often occured the other way around, europeans women more likely to abuse the African men, and African women being victims.

3. In Roman times sex between a slave male and a free woman was forbidden, and written off as rape. It was only until late in Rome's life that they discovered some free women were in consensual relationships, thus they wrote a law to allow a free woman to write a contract with the owner of her desired partner to avoid the normal legal consequences of sex, on the grounds any kid she births become a slave to the slave owner.

4. Also in rome, rape was seen as a private matter and thus laws were written in reference to abduction and seduction. Thus, a free woman eloping to marry boyrfriend whom her (Very rich) father did not approve of is considered being "Raped" and thus the boyfriend is falsely accused. Likewise in later times when someone is executed for rape, the victim can also be executed if she

consented to the "Rape", which would mean, if she genuinely did consent, then it wasn't actually rape in the first place, merely sex society didn't approve of.

5. Genghis Khan was a known mass rapist, but that's only a label we're giving him *now*. The Mongols themselves, legally, may have not seen it that way. To boot he created many laws to protect "Women" that generally only applied to women in his harem or ethnic Mongol women that weren't associated with enemy tribes and countries. (This is a bit more flimsy than the others but if anyone can clarify in the future I would greatly appreciate it)

2603:8080:F600:27A2:2CF7:CC46:22BE:190D (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

These are some really interesting historical examples; however, I'm not convinced any match the scope of the article here. The lead sentence reads: A false accusation of rape happens when a person says they have been raped when no rape has occurred. (1) and (2) are not examples where named people were falsely accused of specific rapes that had not occurred, but generalised racist moral panics. In (3), (4) and (5), I have to ask: what are we taking rape to mean here? If rape is a legal term, then by definition these cases of "rape" in Rome were legally rape. If it's a sociological term, then maybe we have something to work with. But the best way to understand other cultures' legal and moral systems is likely not to say that they "falsely accused" people of crimes; rather, it might be that they criminalised things that we would not considered unethical in our society.

In any case, we would need references that specifically say that something was a "false accusation of rape" e.g. "In Rome, false accusation of rape was a regular practice used to oppress the slave class ..." Then we'd have something worth incorporating into the body of the article, and if it reached a substantial size then we could summarise it in the lead. But if such sources don't explicitly call something a "false accusation" then it's synthesis. — Bilorv (talk) 18:37, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

There shouldn't be any historical examples given in the lead, as it is meant solely to introduce people to the topic, not the specific politics of one country. It should be removed or placed somewhere else in the article, as it's unnecessary and irrelevant to the concept of it, seeing as it is a specific circumstance.Crun31 (talk) 05:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Which is why, in my opinion, the original was better. "FRAs are often used by women positions of power to oppress men who are below them, such as white women and black men in the united states" and/or "In some cases false accusations often lead to violence such as murder and actual rape of the accusation victim and their commmunity/families if they are seen as defending the accused". This summarizes the situation African-Americans suffeed through without making it about them specifically, and justifies the section about them as well as opening the door for other users to feel comfortable including other historical instances of FRAs outside of American context. 2603:8080:F600:27A2:803D:AF8F:6EDB:5159 (talk) 13:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

No, this proposed passage does not summarise the situation of African-American lynchings, but generalises the situation to the point where it provides much less useful information. It is unsourced, unclear and does not summarise the body of the article: what does "often used" (present tense) mean if the article has no content about it being used today in the way described? And of your 5 examples above, none are present in the article (nor am I convinced that there is scope for them to). — Bilorv (talk) 09:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Section with examples of time spent in jail by persons falsely accused of rape

Should false accusations of rape have an example false accusation section? The article gives statistics on the percent of false accusation of rape but does not give a real life example.

The example shows the serious damage a false accusation of rape and that there are people that repeatedly falsely accuse men of rape and that the men suffer dire consequences of the false accusation.

The example shows that the false accuser was arrested and released on bail without being held for trial like one of the men was held (3 months) before his trial where he was found not guilty.

The one here has the following societal costs (cited as noted):

1. Multiple men were seriously affected
   1. Public reputation damaged, economic damage (job loss loss of business income from local store owner), family damage
   2. 4 men were named in the referenced news articles, allegations were made against other men, the men unnamed in the news articles
   3. Arrested and held in jail
      1. One man held for 3 months before trial and was never convicted
      2. One man was accused multiple times, arrested multiple times and spent time in jail for each and was never convicted
   4. Prevented from seeing his sisters while awaiting trial
   5. Family affected, one's mom had a miscarriage due to the stress
   6. Harassed publicly as a rapist, house defaced, safety threatened
   7. Man's mental health seriously damaged by the arrest, jail time, police investigation and judicial process
2. The false accuser repeatedly accused men even after the police found the accusations to be fabricated
3. The accuser repeatedly self-harm herself to get victim services at hospitals, railway stations and police
4. Wasted police time and money and took away police from investigating other rape investigations
5. Wasted judicial and court time
6. The repeated false accuser was charged with 7 counts of perverting the course of justice (false police reports) and released on bail

Elanor Wiliams falsely accused multiple persons of rape, sex trafficking and physical abuse.

1. Quotes from the Daily Mail, Oct 11, 2022:
   1. The jury was told her allegations were false and injuries she sustained were self-inflicted, in one case with a hammer which police later recovered.
   2. Jonathan Sandiford KC, prosecuting, said Williams was a 'serial liar' who made allegations on a number of occasions between October 2017 and May 2020.
   3. The court heard her allegations of rape against one man, Jordan Trengove, led to him being arrested, charged and kept in custody for three months before proceedings were discontinued.
   4. In 2019, Williams was arrested for perverting the course of justice and released pending further investigation, the jury was told.
   5. Mr Sandiford said: 'Unfortunately, the fact that her lies and false allegations had been exposed by the police in July 2019 did not cause her to stop. 'Instead, she continued to fabricate evidence to try and make it appear that her false claims of being the victim of trafficking and sexual exploitation were true.'
   6. she presented herself at railway stations, hospitals and to police in vulnerable and injured states and alleged she had been sexually assaulted or subjected to violence by her traffickers.
2. Quotes from NWE Mail Oct 12, 2022
   1. Williams, of Teasdale Road on Walney, is charged with seven counts of perverting the course of justice in relation to claims made to police. Prosecutor Jonathan Sandiford described Williams as a ‘serial liar’ who, on a number of occasions between October 2017 and May 2020, made false allegations that she had been victim of sexual offences and violence.
   2. Prosecutors said between October 24 and November 5 2017, Williams began to make screenshots of text messages which purported to suggest she had been drugged and raped by Cameron Bibby.
      1. Note: This is the second man falsely accused of rape
   3. On November 7 2017, Williams attended Furness General Hospital and told a nurse she had been raped.
   4. Williams told the police about confessional messages, alleging that Mr Bibby admitted to raping her. On November 27, 2017 he was arrested and interviewed and was on bail for six months before being informed no further action was going to be taken, the court heard.
   5. Williams made three allegations against Jordan Trengove in 2019.
   6. Williams claims in the early hours of May 6 2019 that Mr Trengove had a knife and threatened her with it, beat her, stripped her naked and had sex with her without her consent, Mr Sandiford told the court. Mr Trengove was arrested and interviewed on suspicion of assault. Later that day, Williams told a colleague that Mr Trengove had raped her again, the jury was told
   7. This was followed by another rape allegation against Mr Trengove which is purported to have taken place on May 18. She told officers that Mr Trengove had smacked her all over and then laid on top of her and had sex with her, despite her attempts to push him off. Mr Trengove was arrested on May 18 again on suspicion of rape.
   8. Mr Trengove was kept in custody for three months until proceedings against him were dropped in August 2019.
3. Quotes for NWE Mail Oct 11, 2022
   1. Police inquiries established that ‘none of what Williams had alleged was true’, Mr Sandiford said. The prosecution claims Williams' injuries were ‘self-inflicted with a hammer’ that the police recovered in a field near to where Williams was when she failed to return home.
4. Quotes from Manchester Evening News Oct 12, 2022
   1. On such occasions, police officers, medical staff and others appear to have taken her accounts of being the victim of sexual exploitation and violence at face value." But he said after an incident in May 2020, the police eventually established that Williams had in fact been injuring herself. On May 19, 2020, Williams was reported to the police when she did not return home, the jury was told. When police found her, a few miles from her home in Walney Island, part of her finger was almost severed off and she was covered in bruises, it was said. She told police she had been beaten, threatened with a knife and forced to have sex with three men - repeating the claims the following day on social media, said Mr Sandiford. But he said Williams caused the injuries to herself using a hammer, which was later found near her home. He said: "Police investigated Williams' claims she had been trafficked for sexual exploitation, looking for evidence to support them. Instead what the police found was evidence that her allegations were untrue and she had fabricated evidence.
   2. In 2017 a man called Cameron Bibby was arrested after Williams claimed he had raped her at a house party in Barrow when she was 16, the court heard. Williams allegedly faked Snapchat messages in which Mr Bibby appeared to confess to having sex with her - however he was later found to be innocent, it was said.
5. Quotes from Lancs Live news
   1. Williams also claimed to have been raped by two other men in her home town of Barrow-in-Furness
6. Quotes from NEW Mail news Aug 29, 2019 about one of the falsely accused men
   1. Jordan Lee Trengove, of Westway in Barrow, said he was ‘scared to leave the house’ after he was charged with three counts of serious sexual assault last May. However, the 19-year-old had his name cleared when he was acquitted of all charges at Preston Crown Court. He said: “Me and my whole family have lived through months of hell. “I’ve had the word rapist spray painted on my house, my mum has had a miscarriage due to the stress and I haven’t been allowed to see my little sisters. “It doesn’t seem fair when I’ve done absolutely nothing wrong.”
   2. Since the allegations, Mr Trengove said his mental health has ‘seriously suffered’. “My anxiety’s got a lot worse since this all began,” he said. “I haven’t been able to leave my house. “People have been calling me names down the street, we’ve all been living in fear. “My whole life has been turned upside down.”
7. Quotes from
   1. Jonathan Sandiford KC, prosecuting, said Williams also manipulated phone and social media contacts to make it look like she was being constantly contacted by men with Asian names about sexual matters. ‘Unfortunately, the fact that her lies and false allegations had been exposed by the police in July 2019 did not cause her to stop,’ he said. ‘Instead, she continued to fabricate evidence to try and make it appear that her false claims of being the victim of trafficking and sexual exploitation were true.’
8. Quotes from BBC Oct 12, 2022
   1. Jonathan Sandiford KC said the defendant claimed Mohammed Ramzan, a Barrow business owner known as Rammi, began a sexual relationship with her when she was 12 or 13 and groomed her to have sex with other men. She alleged in 2018 Mr Ramzan masterminded the trip to Amsterdam and then sold her at auction before she was allowed to return home when the buyer could not make the payment. The court heard when police made inquiries into Mr Ramzan's whereabouts at the time of the alleged trip, they discovered a "more mundane" story. Mr Sandiford said: "They found his phone did not leave Barrow on those few days. "They looked at his bank cards and in fact, instead of acting as an international human trafficker in Amsterdam, he was buying things in B&Q Barrow and filling his car with petrol in Asda."
   2. Mr Sandiford said: "What police found was the detailed account that the defendant had given was a pack of lies from first to last." He said she had travelled to Blackpool alone and stayed at a hotel, where she bought a Pot Noodle and chocolate from a nearby shop then stayed in her room watching YouTube on her phone.
9. Quotes from The Guardian Oct 11, 2022:
   1. It is alleged that she used numerous mobile phones to create false evidence, fabricating messages in which her alleged abusers, assailants and traffickers appeared to discuss or admit their supposed crimes
   2. The court heard that Williams made numerous false allegations to medical professionals, work colleagues and the police over a period of two and a half years up to May 2020.
   3. The first false allegation was made when she was 16 and at the house of a friend, Cameron Bibby, in October 2017, with two other male friends. The jury heard that she had had too much to drink, became unwell and vomited and the young men present contacted her family.
      1. Her mother came to collect her but as she helped her outside, she staggered and fell and one witness recalls her loudly screaming “Help” and “Rape”, the jury heard. Her mother was concerned and took her to Furness general hospital, where she accepted having taken alcohol and cannabis “but made no suggestion that she had been attacked or even sexually assaulted”, the court was told. ### However, a few days later Williams began to make screenshots of text messages that purported to suggest that she had been drugged and raped. Some of these appeared to have come from a Snapchat Account with the name CamBib158 that was clearly intended to appear to be Bibby, Sandiford said. Bibby was arrested and interviewed. He was on bail for about six months before being informed that no further action was going to be taken.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:d591:5f10:5ce:a9eb:7a8c:612c (talk) 16:33, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

References

I've removed the mention of "RFC" (requests for comment) from this section, as you have not started the technical process of an RfC, nor do we use RfCs except when there has been protracted discussion already.

Wikipedia encourages you to be bold and add content directly rather than asking permission. However, in this case, any edits you make would certainly be reverted. Other than the Daily Mail being a deprecated source, Wikipedia is not a news website and a page on the phenomenon of false rape accusations should not be bolstered with anecdotes rather than more reputable information from journals and experts. News media report sensational crimes and scandals, not the typical experience of most people, which is what we attempt to document here with statistics on the rarity of false rape accusations with named perpetrators. — Bilorv (talk) 18:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

The false accusation page is lacking detail on the effects of being falsely accused. Academic sources do not have that other than high level abstractions: waste police resources, men arrested. An example, based on RS sourced police statements would benefit the false accusation page. The above quotes could be stated: "Police, in 2022, found one woman falsely accused four men of rape over a 2 1/2 year period. Multiple men were arrested, with one accused an arrested multiple times, and another spending three months in jail before trial. She was charged with seven counts of perverting the course of justice.[1][2][3][4]". Supporting quotes from this talk page would be used in the article, other quotes here would not be included.

No motion to include all of the quotes was intended and they are a starting point to include a sentence or two in the false accusation page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:D591:5F10:15BD:DD54:83D6:F054 (talk) 12:15, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Bilov, a three sentence example has been added with citations based on the police statements in the cited articles. It adds an import point lacking in the false accusations of rape page, that false accusations have a consequence of significant jail time, 3 months in this example, multiple accused persons, multiple arrests and more than a trivial cost to police time, money and resources. 2600:1700:D591:5F10:2CD4:2467:CAAB:1383 (talk) 20:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I said above that you would be reverted if you tried to add this content. You added it and were reverted. I have now reverted your second attempt. Once challenged, being bold does not continue to apply and you must instead gain consensus on the talk page before adding the content. As no users have agreed this content is necessary, and you have not responded to the reasons I give why the "example" is low-quality, misleading and antithetical to a serious representation of scholarship on this topic, you do not currently have consensus. — Bilorv (talk) 22:23, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The talk page addition is for consensus building and not the proposed text to be put into the main false accusation page. It is the background sources, quotes and sources summary.

Proposed page addition: "False accusations of rape result in serious damages to the falsely accused, including months in jail before trial [NWE Mail Oct 12, 2022] and repeated arrests [NWE Mail Oct 12, 2022]".

Reason: The false accusation page ignores the physical, mental, legal, employment and reputation harm inflicted on those falsely accused especially poor persons. Poor persons cannot afford the legal fees to defend themselves and many remain in jail until their trial. Incarceration before trial - and, importantly, being at significant high risk of physical and sexual assault in jail is a serious issue and should not be downplayed.

Please give input on this page addition proposal. 2600:1700:D591:5F10:F50A:EC17:8548:E8D1 (talk) 14:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

My first comment in this thread already explains why this content should not be added. Sensationalist media anecdotes are not good sources for a high-level overview of a topic. — Bilorv (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The topic is treated as a dry academic one in the current Wikipedia topic page. It needs a mention of actual punishment and harm inflicted on those falsely accused. Treading this as a dry academic viewpoint minimizes and hides the seriousness of the damage done to those falsely accused.

The one line addition would be in a later section in the page and not at the overview of the topic. The one line is "False accusations of rape result in serious damages to the falsely accused, including months in jail before trial [1] and repeated arrests [2]" where references [1] and [2] are listed above.

If not, then how to address the common refrain that "false accusations do not hurt anyone" ? Which is untrue given that arrest, time in jail, legal costs, etc. are all harmful. 2600:1700:D591:5F10:6D02:BE2C:CB34:BE20 (talk) 05:49, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

We are not interested in righting great wrongs, but in summarising and making accessible already existing academic information. As an encyclopedia, we do not publish original thought. — Bilorv (talk) 18:52, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

There is a fundamental misunderstanding here: "summarising and making accessible already existing academic information." That's only part of our job. We "summarise and make accessible" information from ALL types of RS, of which academic information is often the tiniest fraction of our sourcing, with the exception of certain types of strictly academic topics, and this one is miles away from that.

The point is that excluding non-academic sources is contrary to policy and our mission to document the sum of ALL human knowledge as found in ALL types of reliable sources. The addition of examples is well within the range of normal and acceptable content. Just do it properly. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

The limitation to only academic sources excludes most of the recent events covered in Wikipedia. Narrowly drawing data from only academic sources excludes mainstream media, and mainstream media is the primary source for many Wikipedia articles.

From righting great wrongs: "on Wikipedia, you'll have to wait until it's been reported in mainstream media or published in books from reputable publishing houses." By that statement, mainstream media is a RS.

Original thought as mistakenly mentioned by Bilorv is not included in the proposed page addition: "False accusations of rape result in serious damages to the falsely accused, including months in jail before trial [1] and repeated arrests [2]." where references [1] and [2] are listed above.

All of the earlier listed quotes and sources are building a background basis for the one line addition to the page. Repeating it here for clarity. 2600:1700:D591:5F10:218A:28F2:CE58:32E3 (talk) 02:15, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

The facts in the line line addition are factually reported in the mainstream news articles and not opinion or original research. Jail time, even before trial, is a punishment. Arrests, even without a conviction, are a punishment. Both of which lead to costs for legal defense and loss of wages as well as reputational damage.

It's NPOV to consider arrests and jail time (before trial) as punishments as jail time is a punishment after a conviction.

Dismissing mainstream media sources as not RS because they are not academic goes against Wikipedia Reliable_sources - "News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact" 2600:1700:D591:5F10:218A:28F2:CE58:32E3 (talk) 02:22, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

You're citing a single case to support a general statement. The Daily Mail is deprecated source WP:DEPS so you can't use it; The Mail is also a tabloid, so it's a bit questionable. These are hardly secondary sources. I also found scholarly work claiming that the consequences for those falsely accused are generally not that bad because police frequently don't believe the accusers and DAs often don't think there's enough evidence to go to trial, that very few people who are falsely accused ever face serious consequences. That's not to say that that's always true. Where racism comes into play, there are plenty of harsh consequences for the accused. Ian m (talk) 22:55, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Adding a follow-up with multiple RS giving a fuller extent of the harm done by serial false rape accusers.

Jan 3, 2023 news sources BBC, Guardian, Times, Sky News, etc.

Summary of harm from court testimony:

1. 4 men and 16 women affected
2. Mass protests in the city with far-right groups attending
3. Racist attacks on Asians
4. Breakup of families for the falsely accused
5. Hundreds of death threats against the falsely accused
6. 22,000 pounds donated to a legal fund to find and convict the men accused
7. Court costs, police costs, other taxpayer costs? Money which could be used to help actual victims.

Lots of harmed people as in the following RS quotes from the court trial.

Elanor Williams found guilty of 8 counts of perverting justice. Here are relevant quotes from RS news sources as to the impact of her serial false rape accusations (4 men and 16 women affected).

1. BBC Jan 3, 2023 - Eleanor Williams: Barrow woman guilty of false rape claims
   1. Quote: Eleanor Williams, 22, of Barrow-in-Furness, was found guilty of eight counts at Preston Crown Court.
2. Guardian Jan 3, 2023 - Woman who lied about grooming gang guilty of perverting course of justice
   1. Quote: Eleanor Williams, known as Ellie, sparked a worldwide solidarity movement when she posted graphic photos of herself on Facebook, alleging she had been beaten and raped by men who took her to sex “parties” around the north-west of England. The post, made during the first Covid lockdown on 20 May 2020, prompted more than 100,000 people to join a Facebook group called Justice for Ellie. It led to a line of merchandise featuring a purple elephant, her favourite animal, and prompted a crowdfunder, which saw more than 1,000 people donate £22,000 to help her' and bring her abusers to justice. It set off a chain of events that included a far-right group gaining a foothold in Barrow, and drove a sharp rise in racism and Islamophobia. Curry house windows were smashed, beloved restaurants were boycotted and one Muslim takeaway owner was chased down the street by men who poured alcohol over his head. A local reporter who covered the case had to leave Cumbria on police advice after receiving numerous death threats. It also ruined the lives of those she falsely accused, who were spat at, ostracised and called “paedo” in the street. What Williams failed to mention in her viral Facebook post was that she had already been charged with making false rape allegations against four men.
   2. Quote: The prosecution accused her of confecting the Asian grooming gang after watching the BBC drama Three Girls, which told the true story of girls who were sexually exploited in Rochdale. They said she took the Amsterdam auction plot from the 2008 film Taken, in which Liam Neeson plays a father searching for the sex traffickers who abducted his daughter.
   3. Quote: Simon Fell, the MP for Barrow and Furness, said the case had caused huge community tensions in Barrow, with an increase in racist attacks on Asian people and “unofficial surveillance operations” being carried out on Asian businesses. “We saw a couple of plate glass windows put in in curry houses,” he said. “I had doctors who worked at the local hospital come to me who were really concerned about their safety and their kids’ safety. “I know one gentleman who ran a curry house, his wife left him and took his children away, because accusations were made against him. This really affected people, genuine people who’d been in the community for years and years and years.” He said Williams’s false claims provided “fuel” for a far-right group, Patriotic Alternative, to start campaigning in the Cumbrian town.
3. The Times
4. Sky News Jan 3, 2023Eleanor Williams: How woman's lies and self-inflicted injuries unleashed hatred and death threats against Asian family
   1. Quote: Her allegations had triggered protests, attended by some on the far right, in the town of Barrow-In-Furness and in other towns across the north of England.
   2. Quote: "We had messages like people are going to rape my wife in front of me. From Islamophobia, to racism, to just general hate - people wishing me dead," he said. "My children had fire extinguishers, baseball bats next to their beds for their safety because we had threats. People were going to burn the shops down, burn us down. "We had rental properties in town - smashed in. Is that the type of persecution that goes on today in a town where there's only a handful of Asians, and everybody knows these Asians?
   3. Quote: More than 20 women whom Williams listed as present ... all denied being there. The prosecution claimed Williams had either known the girls from school or found their details online.
5. The Independent Jan 3, 2023Eleanor Williams’ case put Barrow ‘through the wringer’, says local MP
6. The Guardian Jan 3, 2023 - ‘I went downhill’: man falsely accused of rape on becoming a hate figure
   1. Quote from one man falsely accused: “I went downhill,” he said. “I tried killing myself over it. I tried running away from it all. I tried ending my relationship, walking away from my family. “The amount of problems put on my life just from one [Facebook] post is ridiculous. Because I’m autistic, it’s even harder. I got diagnosed with complex PTSD because of it all. Trengove became a father in August 2021 but struggled to bond with his son as Williams’s trial kept getting postponed. “When I was in his newborn stage I couldn’t love him like a dad should. I tried to distance myself away.
7. BBC Nov 11, 2022 Eleanor Williams trial: Women deny they were sexually exploited
   1. Quote about how 16 women had to testify in court because of the false accusation: The trial at Preston Crown Court heard she gave Cumbria Police a list of other women and girls who she claimed were "potentially all victims of sexual exploitation and human trafficking". The court heard from 16 people who featured on the list, who cannot be named for legal reasons.
8. BBC Oct 24, 2022Eleanor Williams: 'Barrow serial rape liar ruined man's life'
9. NWE Mail Dec 3, 2022 - Eleanor Williams: 500 death threats to man after 'false' allegations
   1. Quote: Returning to the witness box at Preston Crown Court, Ramzan, also known as Mo Rammy, told jurors he had received hundreds of threatening messages following the claims made by the defendant and that his businesses had 'crumbled'.
   2. Quote: He said: "I've had over 500 message requests with death threats, I've had Tommy Robinson at my door, I've had thousands of messages so I set up and did a lot of Facebook Lives and they are still sitting there today."
   3. Quote: "I've had my ice cream van smashed, I've had my house smashed, I've had my cars smashed."

There are 20 persons (4 men, 16 women) directly affected by the serial false rape accuser from RS listed above. How much more information would be needed to add a sentence or two to the Wikipedia topic that false accusations cause harm?

The objections in including it are

1. They are not academic sources. Wikipedia has RS including mainstream media like BBC
2. It's an isolated incident. See the See Also section of the false accusation of rape page. The Duke lacrosse false accusation has its own topic, Brian Banks has its own Wikipdia page This case has, see the quoted news sources above national news coverage.
3. Those falsely accused are rarely prosecuted and do not face serious penalties. See Innocense project, Brian Banks with just a few examples of persons serving years in prison due to false accusations
4. Minimizing the harm to false accusation victims. Ignoring or downplaying the negative effects. Implying, by omission/white washing language, those falsely accused are investigated quickly and easily set free with, by implication, no serious penalties to them. Penalties from the RS quotes include: being arrested multiple times, spending months in jail before trial and being convicted (personal danger), costs to fight legal battles, loss of employment, loss of business, broken marriages, death threats and being the victim of hate-crime racist attacks. 2600:1700:D591:5F10:FC5D:1606:F6B0:A5A3 (talk) 07:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Can you propose the specific text that you wish to be included? You have suggested adding "a sentence or two ... that false accusations cause harm" with the references given. What would this sentence be, bearing in mind synthesis (you can't combine sources on different incidents together to make a new conclusion)? — Bilorv (talk) 15:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

I will. Eleanor Williams is set to be sentenced in March 2023. 107.197.56.204 (talk) 17:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Adding as a primary source, the Preston Crown Court 14 March 2023 sentencing remarks by judge John Altham on sentencing Elanor Williams to 8.5 years in prison (PDF). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:D591:5F10:D880:340C:15CC:2EE (talk) 04:55, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

1. Quote: In this matter the Defendant was convicted after trial on Counts 1 to 8 each of which alleged perverting the course of justice. She is also to be sentenced on Count 9 - a further count of perverting the course of justice to which she entered a guilty plea on 15th February 2022 and for which she will receive full credit.
2. Quote: By way of very broad summary the Defendant made very serious allegations of a sexual nature against a large number of men between October 2017 and May 2020.
3. Quote: On Count 1 the Defendant made an allegation against another young man whom I will refer to as C who was hosting an informal get together at his house. The Defendant became drunk and smoked cannabis such that she was sick. C and others called for her sister and mother and her mother picked her up. She then alleged to the hospital that she had been raped and then made a police video-taped interview
4. Quote: As a result of this allegation C was arrested and interviewed on 27th November 2017. He was not remanded into custody but had the matter hanging over him until March 2018. The Defendant had withdrawn her support for the prosecution in January 2018.
5. Quote: In relation to Counts 2,3 and 4 the Defendant made 3 separate allegations of rape against one Jordan Trengove (who is content to be named in these remarks). She went on a night out on 8th March 2019 into the 9th March 2019 with Mr Trengove and others. She drank or took drugs such that she became intoxicated and had to be taken home.
6. Quote: In order to support that allegation she created a number of false messages (of which she took screen shots) purporting to be from Mr Trengove in which he made supposed admissions in the most derogatory terms. She sent those messages to herself and then took screenshots of them so that they could be handed to the police. She made the first of a number of errors in that one of the accounts she used to send these messages was created from her family home using the IP address of the Wi-Fi network there.
7. Quote: Mr Trengove was not even there. She knew it was false. She did indeed have injuries but had caused them herself to support her allegation. As we will see this was to become a feature of her conduct.
8. Quote: She provided lists of girls who had been trafficked. None of them were trafficked. She supplied a long list of men who were the traffickers. They were not.
9. Quote: "in police interview when confronted with the possibility of travel records being checked she admitted that this account was false only to seek to replace it with another lie subsequently at trial."
10. Quote: The females she named as co-victims of trafficking were spoken to. Many were profoundly upset by the suggestion. Some gave evidence at court but many of their statements (denying that they had ever been trafficked) were agreed and read at trial. None of them had been trafficked.
11. Quote: There were other types of evidence she created. She would self-inflict unpleasant injuries which she later attributed to fictitious traffickers. She wrote letters to herself supposedly from Rammi. She made false diary entries.
12. Quote: Whilst the Defendant had refused to participate in a witness protection program she did agree to be temporarily housed by the police in a hotel close to the Kendal police station. The police arranged for her to have a job there.
13. Quote: On 18th July 2019 the Defendant caught a train to Leeds. The clear evidence is that she spent a good part of the day in the park. She had two phones with her. She then travelled back to Preston where she walked into the town centre. A young man walking home from a family party happened upon her. He asked her for a light and they started to talk. They had a brief and entirely consensual sexual encounter. The Defendant then caught the train to Barrow-in-Furness exchanging details with the young man and tentatively agreeing to meet him at a later date.
14. Quote: In the earlier part of 2020 the instances of her apparently going missing and turning up intoxicated and injured had increased.
15. Quote: A home office pathologist gave evidence to the effect that the serious injuries she had sustained were completely inconsistent with her account of what had happened but were completely consistent with being self-inflicted with the hammer which she had bought, which was found close to her and which bore her DNA.
16. Page 6
    1. Quote: On 20th May 2019 the Defendant made a Facebook post in which she posted shocking photographs of the injuries she had inflicted upon herself. These photographs were very graphic and bound to produce a significant response. In that post she referred to these having been inflicted by three, as she put it, “Asian” men as they took her to various sex parties. In that same post she referred to having been similarly abused by Asian men and men of Pakistani origin in various locations across the north of England for a number of years.
    2. Quote: She did not mention that she was already on bail for perverting the course of justice.
    3. Quote: She had been self-harming from a young age.
    4. Quote: It is troubling to say the least that she shows no significant sign of remorse - even continuing to profess the truth of her allegations.
    5. Quote: She has gone to extraordinary lengths to create false accusations including causing herself significant injury. No explanation for this behaviour is apparent.
17. Page 7
    1. Quote: I remind myself that because this offence strikes at the heart of the administration of justice it is to be regarded as serious.
    2. Quote: In relation to all counts I bear in mind that these were allegations of sexual offences. These carry not only the risk of prosecution but also a potentially indelible stain on the character and reputation of everyone accused. Sexual allegations, even where disproved often leave the falsely accused person living under a general and misplaced suspicion.
    3. Quote: In his victim personal statement C sets out how frightening it was to be wrongly accused and then to be arrested and kept in the police station. He had to remove himself from social media because he was wrongly accused of being a rapist. Even 5 years later he says he does not go to Barrow town centre because he fears he is under suspicion. He could not even bring himself to pick his son up from nursery for fear of what people were saying. He describes the Defendant’s false allegation against him as the worst experience of his life. He does not think he will ever recover.
    4. Quote: Mr Trengove’s house was spray painted with the word “rapist”. His mother had to leave her house. He was remanded into custody between May and August 2019. Even when released his bail conditions meant he had to live far from home for a further 19 days. When he returned to Barrow he was abused in the street by strangers. He became isolated. He tried to take his life in August 2020 and is still taking anti-depressant medication. He has lost any sense of self-confidence. He says that he can no longer work. He has a child now and social services received scores of anonymous phone calls saying he is a rapist and not safe to be with his child. He recently moved house and a neighbour called him a rapist saying they did not want him living there.
18. Page 8
    1. Quote: Mr Ramzan was arrested on 7th July 2019 in the public street in the community where he lives and then held in custody for 36 hours. Two weeks after his arrest he was in such despair that he tried to kill himself in front of his family in a most graphic and upsetting way. He sustained injury in that attempt which has left scars. Though he was informed the next month that there would be no further action by the police that was, as he puts it in his statement, only the start of the worst period of his life. He describes being targeted by sections of the Barrow community. He has been unable to sleep and, to this day fears for his safety. The windows of his vehicles have been smashed and their tyres damaged. He and his family have had to endure abuse. The windows of his rental property have been put in and then once repaired, immediately put in again. He has received countless death threats over social media. He has felt anxious going out for the last 3 years. His family, including his children, have been affected. For a period they had to move out of the family home. He describes the trauma of being cross examined in court during the trial. His businesses were ruined. He describes going from a successful businessman to someone who has virtually nothing.
    2. Quote: Also within consideration of harm is the young man who happened to meet the Defendant in Preston on 18th July 2019 on the way back from Leeds. When he was told that he had been accused of raping the Defendant he suffered serious consequences. He tells me in his statement that he was studying for professional exams and doing well at work. As a result of this allegation he was unable to continue his studies and has not worked since. He tells me that he suffered a serious crisis in his mental health. He attempted to kill himself.
    3. Quote: I turn to the statements of those who were wrongly identified as being the victims of exploitation. Their names may not be reported. They all refer to the surprise of being approached by the police about matters of which they knew nothing. One then refers to particular problems she had as she was pregnant at the time she was spoken to and particular problems which followed. Another speaks of her feelings at having been, as she puts it, exploited by this Defendant. Another speaks of the disruption of being required to give evidence at court at a particularly inconvenient time in her life.
    4. Quote: According to the statement of Superintendent Pearman, the period following the Facebook post on 20th May 2020 was turbulent in Barrow. He says that Barrow had not seen such a public display of anger for 30 years. There were public demonstrations targeting the local paper, the local Asian Community and the Police.
    5. Quote: Death threats were made against local restaurant owners.
    6. Quote: Local journalists were the subject of credible threats. One left her home and moved out of the area. Racist anti-police graffiti was sprayed onto a wall in Barrow.
    7. Quote: The local newspaper was subject to boycotts and ultimately, I am told, collapsed for financial reasons
    8. Quote: In the meantime there were credible threats to police officers. Attempts were made to find their home addresses. Online threats were made that they would be found and they would be harmed.
    9. Quote: I am sure that she chose to lie about Asian men because she was modelling her lies on other cases of national prominence. She regarded the prospects of being believed as greater if she based them on true cases already within the public consciousness.
    10. Quote: The harm of this offending extends to an undermining of public confidence in the Criminal Justice system.
19. Page 9
    1. Quote: Eleanor Williams please stand up. These are the sentences you will serve. On Count 1 there will be a sentence of 6 months’ imprisonment. On Counts 2 to 4 the sentence will be 3 years’ imprisonment concurrent on each count but consecutive to the sentence on Count 1 giving a total so far of 3 ½ years. There will be sentences of 5 years on Count 5, 6 and 7 concurrent with one another but consecutive to the sentences already imposed. Finally there will be a sentence of 1 year and 3 months’ imprisonment on Count 8 and 6 months’ imprisonment on Count 9 those sentences to run concurrently with each other and the other sentences imposed. That gives a total sentence of 8 1/2 years’ imprisonment.

2600:1700:D591:5F10:D880:340C:15CC:2EE (talk) 05:21, 25 June 2023 (UTC)