Talk:Ukraine

Show the occupied territories of Ukraine on the map?

Don't want to start a flame war for this. However, considering the map on the Wikipedia page for Russia includes the occupied/annexed territories of Ukraine, why aren't they shown on this page for consistency? With the south-east of the country shaded light green like Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk are. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The Russia map has been inconsistent with wider norms since 2014, so it's not a good example. As for this map, the territory in question has been subject to a hot war since even before the claims. The infobox is not a good place to map a hot war. CMD (talk) 02:43, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

But the Russian claims are solid, and are likely to be for a while. We don't necessarily have to show the front lines, but to display the Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts as being disputed might be best. It just seems odd to hold onto the 2014 map as if the situation hasn't drastically changed. RaiBrown1204 (talk) 05:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what makes claims solid or unsolid, but the frontline is still shifting due to war. Colouring the whole oblasts would be quite inconsistent, we don't usually show uncontrolled claims from other states in infobox maps. CMD (talk) 05:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

We should update the map with current approx frontlines. The conflict seem frozen, and 9 years old map is outdated. Beshogur (talk) 11:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose"Frontlines" are not national boundaries, and do not affect the definition of national territory as far as International Law is concerned. A specific map in the body of the article, showing the ongoing conflic with Russia, would be more appropriate. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 12:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  "Russian-occupied territories of Ukraine prior to the 2022 Russian invasion" isn't a boundary either. We should keep people updated. national territory as far as International Law is concerned wikipedia isn't bound to international law. Beshogur (talk) 11:57, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support: The article should either stick with the internationally recognized borders or with the current ones (de facto), which did not change for almost a year at this point. Combining both the map of the internationally recognized borders and the map of the current frontline would also be a good decision. Showing the irrelevant status quo makes no sense whatsoever. CapLiber (talk) 14:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, and switch to a Ukraine map. This is a locator map of Ukraine, an internationally recognized independent state since 1991, with stable borders since 1954, a founding member of the UN in 1945, a Soviet republic since 1922, and a nominally sovereign state since 1919. It should show its stable, defining boundaries. It is not this week’s war map, nor this year’s map of the Kremlin’s aspirations. We should switch it to a map showing only the boundaries of Ukraine. Rightfully or not, the reason the locator map of Russia shows non-Russian territories is because they are written into Russia’s constitution – that has nothing to do with this subject. The locator map of Ukraine should not be based on the Russian constitution, nor on Russian positions this this weekend, nor on what we have at this moment, which is showing the Russian occupation nineteen months ago. Reliable sources do not do this.[1][2]  —Michael Z. 00:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Then adding another map with uncontrolled territories (from 2014 and from 2022) should be a compromise. CapLiber (talk) 11:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

That would be late February 2015 to 2022, after Russian forces captured the city of Debaltseve. It’s actually already indicated on the map captioned “Russian-occupied territories of Ukraine as of 25 September 2023” as “frontlines at the start of the invasion.” The area could have a different colour and labelled “Russian occupied 2015–2022,” to be clearer.

We could also consider adding maps of the occupation of Crimea in February–March 2014, the oblasts where Russian-backed separatists tried to capture government buildings in April–May, territorial control in eastern Ukraine at the time of the destruction of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in July, and the major battles of Ilovaisk in August–September and Debaltseve in January–February 2015. But the entire nine-year war is only covered by two paragraphs.  —Michael Z. 13:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Invasion OF Russia??

"... and finally, the full-scale invasion of Russia in starting from 24 February 2022"

Surely this must be:

"... and finally, the full-scale invasion by Russia starting from 24 February 2022" 51.155.204.30 (talk) 06:12, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The date was linked to the Minsk Agreement which stipulated a cease fire, lasting as long as the agreement, i.e. to 22th February 2023.

When I had look on this page maybe 10 years ago, I counted 8 languages as spoken in Ukraine. That must have changed, all foreign speakers of Polish, Hungarian etc. emigrated? 2001:8003:A070:7F00:1111:CF3C:B4E0:25BF (talk) 03:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Lack of associations of the Zelensky regime with authoritarianism

Why is Zelensky's regime not considered authoritarian or at least a dominant party state when his regime banned 11 perceived pro-Russian parties and consolidated media power, but Putin's regime is considered an"authoritarian dictatorship" even though he didn't ban pro-Ukrainian parties in Russia?

No normal democracy would have banned its largest political party with the associations of "treason" when most of the parties banned by the regime primarily served their party interests rather than the Russian interests that the Zelensky regime accused them. LeonChrisfield (talk) 19:14, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@LeonChrisfield: Please don't forget to sign your comments. And please read WP:RS, WP:NOR, and WP:SYNTH. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Jacobin and NPR are reliable news sources on the WP:RS list. There was no justification for reverting my edit. LeonChrisfield (talk) 19:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

There are thousands of RS, not only news, but also scholarly sources (e.g. the lectures of Timothy Snyder) describing Ukraine in a different way. And at least your npr source doesn't describe Ukraine as "authoritarian" or "dominant party state". That's why I mentioned those guidelines, especially WP:SYNTH. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

The NPR source says nothing about a “dominant party system”. In fact several of the journalists interviewed express support for various policies as necessary in time of war. I didn’t look at Jacobin because it wouldn’t be RS for this. Volunteer Marek 19:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

What Leon is trying to say is that the article should mention the fact that Zelensky has banned pro-russian parties. This is a fact, and concluding on wether his regime is « authoritarian » or a « dominant party state » remains an interpretation. Saying that Russia is currently not an autocracy because Ukraine isn’t is just a biased view on a small amount information (that Ukraine has banned parties but not Russia). Laikaofsiberia (talk) 20:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it's LeonChrisfield's job to explain what they are "trying to say". Rsk6400 (talk) 20:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

What are you talking about? LeonChrisfield said that these parties were pro-russian. Laikaofsiberia (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 September 2023

Romani people remain one of the most marginalized communities in Ukraine. Though the 2001 Census identified some 47,600 Roma gypsies in the country, rights groups have estimated the Roma number between 200,000 and 300,000; the Council of Europe, for example, estimates that they number approximately 260,000 in Ukraine. Add this information to the demographics section.

Source: https://minorityrights.org/country/ukraine/ 103.164.138.55 (talk) 21:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Economy

For the past year since the war but Ukraine per capita grew to 5200$ really? Even with all the devastation? Even Russia lost 2,000$. Many African countries have been downgraded and many stuck but Ukraine is growing faster??? This is a joke RickyBlair668 (talk) 08:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

If you are saying that the sources cited are incorrectly summarized, please detail the specfic errors. If the sources are accurately summarized, but are in error or you disagree with what they say, you will need to take that up with the sources, not us. You may also offer sources that you have with more current or what you deem more accurate information. 331dot (talk) 08:44, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's high time we question the said sources as well using common sense because only people from certain countries and organizations have decided to only be the writers of these datas and even when we source datas from said countries; they are removed and we editors are banned. So keep that in mind. RickyBlair668 (talk) 08:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Estimate must be very rough because it will be hard for IMF to guess, for example, how many shells and drones the country will make in December. After 2023 has finished I think we should NOT change the infobox to estimates for 2024 but cite more accurate figures for 2023. Do you all agree? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:09, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Estimates are probably poor in any case, but what this article should not have is any sort of up or down arrows in the infobox. They're questionable in most circumstances (what timeframe do they refer to?), but particularly meaningless for a wartime economy in flux. CMD (talk) 02:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Religions in Ukraine

Change this (from the infobox):

• 87.3% Christianity
• 11.0% no religion
• 0.8% other
• 0.9% unanswered

Into this:

- 65.4 % orthodox

- 14.6 % Christianism

- 3.2 % other religions

- 17.0% unanswered.

A study in 2020 by Razumkov found that about 65.4% of the population claims to adhere to one of the branches of Orthodox Christianity (25% in the Kyiv Patriarchate, 21.2% "simply" Orthodox, 15% in the Moscow Patriarchate, 1.8% in the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, and 2% to other types of Orthodoxy), 7.1% "only" Christians, 6.5% to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, 1.9% to Protestantism, 1, 1% to Islam and 1.0% to Latin Catholicism. Judaism and Hinduism each make up 0.2% of the population.

16.3% say they are non-religious or do not identify with the religions mentioned.https://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2019_Religiya.pdf

Other study by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology(KIIS):
	https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1129

Laikaofsiberia (talk) 20:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

«Україна» is derived from «край» which does not only mean «edge»/«border», but also means «land»

Stating that «Україна» is derived from Russian «edge» (rus. «край») instead of Ukrainian «land» (ukr. «край») which sounds the same to Russian is at best counter intuitive. Do you agree?

It is also worth noting that in Ukrainian there is a word «країна» that also means «land» or even «state». I suppose, it is also derived from «край» and all the countries in Ukrainian are named with that word which further proves the theory that «land» is a more correct meaning of the word «край» to use because then every country would be just a border instead of a state. Fenimoure (talk) 12:21, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Change/Fix the category Etymology and orthography, as it doesn't match the origin of the article "Name of Ukraine"

Following the article "Name of Ukraine", the word Ukraine comes from "land", not "borderland". Since the origin is from "land" has provided more resources and valid arguments in that article. Please, fix it Valentyn Holod (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

While this comment has validity, there are also multiple interpretations, so it seems worthwhile to add additional information to place these multiple interpretations in context as the meaning has different views. While some do hold that Ukraine simply means "land", others hold that it is defined by its relations. The root word has multiple meanings, and you are right to point out that the current entry lacks nuance. Additionally, for further context it would seem worthwhile to add more recent interpretation of this name relating Ukraine as the gates of Europe (pp. xxiii-xxvi). BowTieTuba (talk) 21:33, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

The word "ukraina" only means "borderland" in Russian, not in Ukrainian or Old Slavic. The long historical assumption of this etymology being valid is based on the long-time dominance of tsarist Russian and then Soviet sources, and suppression of Ukrainian sources. In all likelihood, that meaning was completely fabricated by the tsars in order to assert their claimed status as the true inheritors of Rus', and demote Ukraine to being a mere periphery of Rus'. When the truth was the opposite, it was Kyiv that was the center of Rus' and Moscow the periphery. — Red XIV ^(talk) 01:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Under the section, "Etymology and orthography," the article currently states, "The name of Ukraine likely comes from the old Slavic term for 'borderland', as does the word krajina." This statement has only one reference, from the magazine the Economist. There are at least three sources in the longer description in Name of Ukraine which support your claims, and provides better detail. Thus, while abridging content for the main Ukraine article is appropriate, the current article appears to be misleading and false in its definitive statement that the Slavic term for Ukraine means "borderland," because though some may think this, there are at least three trustworthy sources that do not.

On the main Ukraine article, there is currently only one sentence on the etymology of Ukraine (quoted above in its entirety), and five sentences on usage of the grammatical article "the" before Ukraine. There is certainly room in this section to expand the one sentence on the meaning of Ukraine to more accurately convey current scholarship.

I agree with you that the section on "Etymology and orthography" in the article, Ukraine should be revised to more accurately convey current scholarship regarding the origin of the name, Ukraine, albeit perhaps still in a more abbreviated format than the main article, Name of Ukraine.

Because this article is protected, it may take greater consensus from other users to change this section. BowTieTuba (talk) 07:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a proposed edit request of the first paragraph of the Etymology and orthography section, with text copied from Name of Ukraine:

−

The name of Ukraine likely comes from the [[old Slavic]] term for 'borderland', as does the word ''[[krajina]]''.

+

The name of Ukraine is frequently interpreted as coming from the [[old Slavic]] term for 'borderland', as is the word ''[[krajina]]''.Yet, the name of Ukraine has been interpreted both as "borderland" and as "region, country." The generally "accepted" and frequently used meaning of the word as "borderland" has increasingly been challenged by revision, motivated by self-asserting of identity. Linguist Hryhoriy Pivtorak (2001) argues that ''Ukraine'' had been used as a term for their own territory by the [[Ukrainian Cossacks]] of the [[Zaporozhian Sich]] since the 16th century, and that the conflation with ''okraina'' "borderlands" was a creation of tsarist Russia.

BowTieTuba (talk) 07:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a good suggestion. Ukraine in the sense of "borderland" is not an invention of tsarist propaganda, since the name appeared long before Ukraine was subordinated to Moscow. In the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Ruthenian term "ukraina" was used to describe every borderland. Marcelus (talk) 10:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Treaty

Way do you not have the treaty between Russia and Ukraine as part of this article? 38.145.148.195 (talk) 03:13, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

This is a high level overview article - for more details see History of Ukraine and it would be great if you could improve it if you have reliable sources. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:39, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

2nd Largest country in Europe?

The claim in the introduction is that Ukraine is the second largest country in Europe after only Russia. This page lists its total area as 603,000 km², which is a figure including all occupied territories. The Wikipedia page for France gives it an area of 643,000 km². If occupied territories are excluded this may fall behind Spain and Sweden too but it's consistent to use internationally recognized borders. I think the claim should either be revised to 3rd or removed altogether as it doesn't seem important enough to state in the introduction. 75.252.22.168 (talk) 17:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine country profile - BBC News Europe's second largest country. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Please see List of European countries by area. I believe only the area in Europe is counted for size in Europe. Peaceray (talk) 19:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

That is how this specific trivia item is calculated. I have also seen "largest country entirely in Europe". Not sure what either might inform the reader more than the raw area and the map does. CMD (talk) 03:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Why don't we just state that it is the largest country located entirely in Europe? This is clear and undisputed. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 06:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Because it's a specifically convoluted trivia item that mixes geographies with cultural conceptions to say very little. CMD (talk) 13:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how that objection applies to my phrasing and not to what is already in the article. Either take it out or phrase it clearly. The status quo is just poorly written. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

It applies to both phrasings, and most other specific rank records. CMD (talk) 14:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

That area for France includes all of France's overseas territories. Metropolitan France (the part that's actually in Europe) is listed as having a land area of 543,940 km², which is clearly smaller than Ukraine. "2nd largest in Europe" is correct if nations' territory outside of Europe is excluded. The European portion of Russia is the largest, followed by Ukraine. — Red XIV ^(talk) 01:54, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I contend that "second largest country in Europe after only Russia" is still not clear. It could easily be misinterpreted as "second largest country with European territory" instead of the intended "second largest country by area counting only European territory". Using the first interpretation, the relevant country would be Kazakhstan. Again, just make it simple and indisputable: Ukraine is the largest country whose territory lies entirely within the European continent. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Locator map

Hi, @Chipmunkdavis, about your revert with the edit summary “discussed before and standard practice.”[3] Including battle lines on locator maps is not standard practice and does not follow any reliable sources. Including two-years-out-of-date battle lines on a level 3 vital article and top-importance article to WikiProject Ukraine is ridiculous.

Previous discussion was inconclusive, so we should include locator maps with information that is up-to-date, accurate, and not in dispute. —Michael Z. 02:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The locator map does not show battle lines, it shows lines that were stable enough that they're still commonly shown in maps from reliable sources that describe the current situation. There is enough dispute that there is a live war. CMD (talk) 02:58, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

No, you’re wrong. Last year’s sources on the war label the area as “occupied by Russia before February 2022,” and the line as the “line of contact” (more current sources tend to omit this old line).[4][5][6][7] Sources on Ukraine showing locator maps of Ukraine do not show it at all, e.g. Britannica.[8][9][10] This is not a border of Ukraine, and not even a border of Russian claims: it is lines between opposing forces and it is out of date.  —Michael Z. 03:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Literally all four of those sources you note as current ones either include the same lines or include the Crimean line. Even the CIA Factbook map you link notes Crimea is occupied on its map, and that's a tool for US foreign policy workers. CMD (talk) 04:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

[Sigh.] You’re not WP:HEARing me.

• The sources about the war have the line and area as historical battle lines which are temporary and fluid since 2014.
  • Aljazeera, January 2024:[11] “Under Russian control before Feb 23, 2022.”
  • BBC, December 2023:[12] doesn’t have the line.
  • NYT, June 2023:[13] “Line of contact before invasion,” a minor line only on a few of the maps, way less prominent than the main subject of these maps. Scroll way down and you also see “Approximate line separating Ukrainian and Russian-backed forces before the invasion.
  • The Guardian, May 2022:[14] “2014–22 frontline.” Pre-2022 maps: “Separatist-controlled area,” “Line of control.”

All maps showing some temporary state of the war in Ukraine. Not the location of Ukraine on the globe.

• Sources about Ukraine:
  • Britannica (updated January 2024):[15] has two maps of Ukraine with permanent features and no battle lines.[16][17]
  • American Heritage Dictionary (©2022):[18] apparently old, but only has permanent features just like other locator maps[19]
  • World Factbook:[20] has a label saying that Crimea is occupied. No lines except the permanent borders.[21]

This article is about the state of Ukraine, with a locator map of Ukraine 1991–2024 (which borders have been stable since 1954). It is not a “battle map of 2015–2022.”  —Michael Z. 04:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

As you say the locator is not a battle map and does not show battle lines, and that is the case for the stable map here. As you may also be aware from the previous discussions, showing claimed and controlled areas is standard practice for countries with territorial disputes. Other sources such as the CIA Factbook may have different goals and conventions. CMD (talk) 06:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not stable because those lines appeared in 2015 and disappeared twenty-two months ago. A representation of Ukraine’s stable borders is the map of the last twenty-two years. And it is not current. It is not showing claimed and controlled areas, which are two different things now, and were two other different things when the lines shown on the map existed, and the map is showing neither of these. Your argument is constructed to have some apparent internal logic, but unfortunately does not represent the facts you represent it as arguing for.  —Michael Z. 21:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

If you're saying the map does not reflect the recent war, then yes. There is no stability now, due to there being an ongoing war. I have consistently opposed the map being changed to reflect an ongoing war. If you wish it to, that is another argument, but that is not a great argument to jump to a map that simply reflects your preferred POV. CMD (talk) 01:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

It is representing the ongoing war, except showing this war’s two-year-old battle lines. It is not representing Russian claims, neither then nor now. Again, you’re saying stuff while refusing to acknowledge the facts of what you’re referring to.

Why do you want a map intended to show the location of Ukraine to have two-year-old battle lines but not this week’s battle lines?

The location and borders of Ukraine are not “my preferred POV.” They are what every reliable source says they are, including in the maps I have linked to.  —Michael Z. 04:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I also see no reason to depict the Russian-occupied territories of Ukraine prior to the 2022 invasion in light green. Essentially, there are only two viable options: display a straightforward map without the war zone, or represent all Russian-occupied territories of Ukraine in light green. Throughout 2023, the front line remained relatively stable, similar to the 2015-2022 front line. Consequently, the choices should be either File:Europe-Ukraine.svg or File:Europe-Ukraine (disputed territory).svg, but not File:Europe-Ukraine (и не контролируемые).png. --Yorkporter (talk) 09:31, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I have not seen reliable sources starting to treat the battle lines as stable, but would be interested in reading them. I would expect there to need to be some international agreement similar to 2015 for sources to start to treat them similarly. CMD (talk) 01:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Here you go: NYT says “Who’s Gaining Ground in Ukraine? This Year, No One.”[22] The red and blue show both sides’ gains in the first nine months of 2023.[23] Precious little changed in the following three months. These are the relatively “stable” battle lines, although in my opinion a locator map should not show the front lines of a conflict in progress.

“Russian claims” is something else, and there are different versions. What’s stated in the current Russian constitution is shown in the map for Russia but doesn’t belong here. Anyway, that is quite different from Russian claims.  —Michael Z. 04:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Compare the locator maps for China and Taiwan – not the same situation, because both consider themselves one country since their separation, while Russia’s claims began with a 2014 war of aggression against a sovereign state, and have been changing and self-contradictory.  —Michael Z. 04:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware little ground has been gained, that's very different from things being stable. The Ukraine locator map is not meant to show Russian claims. On the examples, are you looking to have the Ukraine map reflect the China map and include the claimed areas in light green, or go the way of the Taiwan map which does not include the constitutionally claimed territories at all? CMD (talk) 06:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

1. There were small changes in de-facto territorial control along the line during 2015–2022, and 2. at the scale of the locator maps, the recent changes are probably hidden by the thickness of the map line: so I don’t see any de-facto difference in “stability.”

China is an illustration of an approach in another article (note Taiwan has two locator maps): 1. the locator maps for Ukraine and Russia don’t have to be the same, and 2. Neither map shows the other country’s claims: China is not all light green as claimed by Taiwan, and vice versa (the first situation is only shown in the collapsed second map in the other article).  —Michael Z. 15:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The population given in the infobox is umbiguous

It is not stated if the 33 million is within the 1991 border or the current border. I think we should add a second source which makes a distinction of that.

This source has makes such a distinction. [24]https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/ukraines-demography-second-year-full-fledged-war#:~:text=As%20of%20January%201%2C%202023,million%20people%20(27.6%20percent).

172.98.147.246 (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)