Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new other than a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.

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GFDL question

What is this Wacklepedia thing? It seems to include stuff from here, say that its contents are licensed under GFDL, but I don't see where it gives credit where credit is due.... but maybe that might be a browser compatibility issue or an oversight on my part (e.g., the history link is there but I can't see it. Or does GFDL not require a history link on mirror sites?)

It does. You're supposed to somehow include the names of the five principal authors. Usually that's done with an edit history. Celarnor ^{Talk to me}

I've seen no Wikipedia mirror that links to page history. Answers.com, for example, seems reputable (it also includes content licensed from commercial encyclopædias, typically displayed above the corresponding Wikipedia entry – great for verification), and it has no page-history link. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 08:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On a slightly different question, what's the meaning of the term "title page" as mentioned in GFDL? Is that the Wikipedia main page, or is it something else?

For us, it's the title; i.e, what appears before the beginning of the text. It varies from project to project using the GFDL. Celarnor ^{Talk to me} 02:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another GFDL question

What is the proper way to copy text from one Wikipedia article into another? For example, linker and static build contain duplicative text; supposing that the text was written by the same author in both articles, that is clearly not a problem, but suppose that they are by two different authors. What would be the proper way for the author of the newer article to comply with GFDL when copying text from the older? 69.140.152.55 (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my edit summaries, I usually say something like "Incorporating text from this article". Provides a link to the history of the text. Reso lute 03:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's the most common solution, indeed (the linked page effectively includes "attached" authorship history by virtue of being a MediaWiki page, and all pages on Wikipedia include a link to the GFDL). If it's practical or there's concern one page might be deleted, naming author(s) or copy-pasting history to an article's talk page may also work out okay. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Hidden" Wikipedia mirrors?

So I found an excellent article that I wished to nominate for WP:GA. In order to avoid opening a hornet's nest of liability, I googled a phrase from the article, and found that it duplicates exactly the text of several websites. Some of the websites were clearly irrelevant, as the matches went away when I added words to the query. And most of the remaining websites were clearly Wikipedia mirrors.

However, I found the specific creative content that I thought merited "good article" consideration on not one but two websites that have the same "look and feel" as Wikipedia, but do not license their work pursuant to GFDL, and do not credit Wikipedia. One of these sites I was able to determine to be a Wikipedia mirror by chopping off the end of the URL, but the other seems to be a technical site, so I sent a polite note to their webmaster asking them whether we infringe their copyright. (I worded it this way because I felt that asking it differently would seem hostile or at least, uncivil.)

Now, what shall I do if their webmaster does not respond? (Their "contact" page specifically tells people not to "call" them about their "resource library," implying that such contacts may be ignored.) 69.140.152.55 (talk) 00:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check archive.org and see which one is older. Odds are, they're copying from Wikipedia. --Carnildo (talk) 00:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ATTACK and the First Amendment

Resolved

– Wikipedia is not congress _{1 != 2} 20:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So why is a policy like WP:ATTACK not challenged for violating our First Amendment rights? I know you might say "no governmental action," but someone could claim as the most important and biggest forum on the internet (which is the most important, indispensable medium), such restrictions on speech leave the party with no other reasonably similar outlet for his expression. I also am not talking about obscene speech either, but then again I hardly think that calling user XYZ a "nincompoop" would be construed as obscene. JeanLatore (talk) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably in the first place because this is not a forum. This is a project. Guido den Broeder (talk) 18:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But Wikipedia is a forum, or soon will be, due to its near omnipresence on the internet. JeanLatore (talk) 23:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not relevant. The American First Amendment does not extend to non-governmental organizations, no matter how influential they might be. Simply put, you have no constitutional right to "free speech" on Wikipedia, or the internet. Reso lute 23:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And also, a lot of us aren't Americans! Fritzpoll (talk) 18:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no right to free speech on Wikipedia. Darkspots (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. --Hu12 (talk) 18:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The First amendment has to do with congress restricting your speech. Congress didn't write WP:ATTACK. --Kbdank71 18:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very narrow reading of the First Amendment, and not the way it is construed in American jurisprudence. But Guido is correct; this is a project, not a democracy, and the people that set the project up and make sure that it gets paid for get to make the rules. If you go to Network Solutions and register your own domain, then you have free speech. Not here. Darkspots (talk) 18:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, not there either, if they don't like what you've registered, or what you're doing with the domain enough. SQL ^{Query me!} 01:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The First Amendment only covers the government restricting the free speech of private citizens. It is in absolutely no way, shape, or form applicable to WP:ATTACK, or indeed anything on Wikipedia. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it is not (try insulting your potential employer during a job interview referring to the first amendment ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 18:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not applicable -- there are many other forums for insulting your employer. The First Amendment in fact does give you the RIGHT to insult your employer, unless you use "fighting words." You just have the pay the consequences of said speech, but you are free to do it. The First Amendment thus gives us the right to make personal attacks on Wikipedia too. JeanLatore (talk) 23:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But you probably won't be hired as a direct result, just as you won't be staying on Wikipedia very long. Mr.Z-man 23:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, there is free speech on Wikipedia, as you will not be prosecuted, locked up, tortured or killed, or denied any other civil rights (edting Wiki is not one of them) for anything you say on Wiki. You may be kicked off the project; but quaoting JeanLatore "You just have the pay the consequences of said speech, but you are free to do it." Arnoutf (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or you could try spray painting graffiti on your neighbour's wall and threatening to sue him for violating your right to free speech if he scrubs it off. Hut 8.5 19:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not applicable -- involves committing a crime through your speech.JeanLatore (talk) 23:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The point still stands. Suppose you did something legal - put a sign on his front lawn. It's his property and he has every right to determine what is and is not on it, just as Wikipedia has every right to determine what they do and do not host. --Hut 8.5 16:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Putting a sign on his front lawn w/o his permission is illegal -- it's tresspass. I don't know what country you live in where they don't consider that wrong! JeanLatore (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are dodging the question. My point is that the owner of private property has the right to regulate what is or is not displayed on that property, regardless of how it got there. Therefore Wikipedia has every right to remove personal attacks as it is private property. Hut 8.5 19:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not dodging the question. If you have a point to make just make it without resorting to unclear and inapposite analogy. JeanLatore (talk) 19:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Say your neighbor gave his permission for signs to be put on his lawn. Now it's legal. If you put a sign he doesn't like and removes it, that's his right. It's still his property, and he can do what he wants with it. --Kbdank71 19:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And in a more positive vain, it means you can kick your friend out of your house when he bad-mouths your favorite sports team. ;) EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not applicable if your friend had no other place to live not even the streets.JeanLatore (talk) 23:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is; your house, your rules. There's no law saying you have to house someone against your will. Kicking your friend out when they have nowhere else to go may make you a total jackass, but it isn't illegal. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't a democracy, and free speech is irrelevant to your argument anyway. Anyone can say whatever they want whenever they want. Sometimes it's just stupid to exercise that right because it'll bite you in the ass. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JeanLatore, 'free speech' does not give you the right to insult people. What it does (one of the things that it does) is make you accountable to the other if you do, as opposed to non-free speech where you are accountable to the authorities. It is a right, but also a great responsibility. Guido den Broeder (talk) 23:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It does not even do that. It guarantees American citizens the right to public speech without government interference. (At least, in the context I think this is used in, I'm not sure about the irish one... That's what happens when you link to things you haven't read, I spose.) SQL ^{Query me!} 01:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's the amendment. I'm talking about freedom of speech itself now, which user apparently also doesn't understand. Guido den Broeder (talk) 07:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest you read the text of the First Amendment before continuing to comment. Until Wikipedia becomes a branch of the government with rules formed by Congress, it doesn't apply. Wikipedia is a private website governed by a board of trustees, though most power is delegated to the community. As a private website, the foundation and the community have just as much of a right to regulate speech as someone may do in their own home or in an office they manage. Mr.Z-man 23:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, No, they dont! The owner can regulate speech within the area under his control, that is true, but not when that area is so broad as to there not be any other feasible locations for the speech. There are 2 Supreme Court cases right on this point, something about how a "company town" could not regulate speech within the town it owned, and other about a shopping mall. Wikipedia is like the "company town." JeanLatore (talk) 00:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean to tell me there are no other feasible locations on the internet for you to make such statements? Reso lute 01:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not a "company town." Wikipedia is an internet establishment whose avenues for communication amount to little more than your run of the mill forum, BLP issues notwithstanding. It has the right to regulate speech as it sees fit. You might as well drop this, because you're never going to successfully argue that everyone should have the right to call the other side some terribly obscene name in place of actual discussion. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is nothing like the company town. The company town is when one entity owns so much of an area and regulates speech within it that in effect there is nowhere else to go to speak freely. This is nothing like that. You can go somewhere else just by moving your mouse up and clicking elsewhere. Celarnor ^{Talk to me} 01:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The text of the first amendment starts out with: "Congress shall make no law"... That seems pretty clear as to why it's not applicable here. SQL ^{Query me!} 00:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems pretty clear to me that constitutional law and interpretation only done through United States Supreme Court cases involving the text. Not all it takes to understand constitutional law is to memorize the text of the constitution and its amendments. JeanLatore (talk) 01:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, you would interpert Congress some other way, to mean Wikipedia? SQL ^{Query me!} 01:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jeez, read the first string of posts, its explained up there. Look for the "company town" stuff... JeanLatore (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And this is an article that also advances this argument: [1]

this is another one dealing with the First Amendment consequences of MMPORGs. [2]. And the company town supreme court case was Marsh v. Alabama. JeanLatore (talk) 01:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What geographical area does Wikipedia own and govern? Have you or anyone else been imprisoned for making edits that are not in line with WP:ATTACK somehow? SQL ^{Query me!} 01:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where does the law say that one can only make a first amendment claim if he was imprisoned first? The mere fact that a user is threatened with some sanction, that is to say, banning from wikipedia, is all you need to make a claim.

And who said anything about geographic area? Wikipedia owns a LOT of information-area. That also is sufficient to make it subject to a Marsh-like claim of a first amendment violation. JeanLatore (talk) 01:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)What? Now I can't interpret it however I see fit? :) SQL ^{Query me!} 01:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You've yet to address the issue of how this applies to Wikipedia. You've thrown around "company town", which doesn't apply, and posted two papers which likewise don't apply. Wikipedia isn't a public forum and your assertions don't have merit until it is ruled to be as such. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ecx2)Since we're citing opinion papers, there's also Wikipedia:Free_speech, probably explains things a little better than I have. SQL ^{Query me!} 01:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I am curious here. What percentage of the internet must Wikipedia "own" in order for a "Marsh-like" claim to exist in your opinion? What percentage of the internet do you think Wikipedia owns? Also, please get in contact with the ACLU. I would love to hear their take on your complaint. Reso lute 01:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jean, a couple of your recent article contributions: Anal Sex with Sluts and Small Sluts, Nice Butts make me question your understanding of our project, not to mention your mention above of WP as a "forum". You seem to confuse us with You Tube, MySpace, or a blog space. The point here is that we are writing an encyclopedia in cooperation, like a work environment. It is incumbent on the project to provide a reasonable and comfortable work environment free from sexual harassment and incivility. You are trying to pushing rope uphill with your debate here. Why are you here? Are you just trying to get attention by making noise? --Kevin Murray (talk) 01:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Focus on the content, not the contributor, man. Everything was going fine until you started to troll the thread... and why am i here, man? Just check out these gems: Lo-Ji Sales, Inc. v. New York, United States v. Williams, United States v. Dixon. Yeah man, that's it baby. JeanLatore (talk) 01:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your contributions do have merit to this very pointless discussion. You seem to think that Wikipedia works in a way contrary to reality, and won't let that belief go despite the obvious. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm one of the biggest supporters of free speech around here, but I'd never be silly enough to claim that the First Amendment is directly applicable to the policies of a worldwide, privately operated site like this. (And I don't see how the cases you cited here are relevant.) *Dan T.* (talk) 01:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to free speech? Reso lute 01:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, did you read them? I'm thinking about when wikipedia becomes all powerful, all encompassing. Read that case about AOL that's mentioned at the bottom of the marsh v. alabama article...the next time the court might rule against the internet on the same grounds, esp. as it grows stronger.JeanLatore (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One item that has been dropped from this discussion is Freedom of association. Wikipedia has the right to restrict who it associates with when such associations do not conform with Wikipedia's stated goals. Another way to view this is that the right to a free press does not mean that you can force someone else to buy you a printing press. --Allen3 ^talk 01:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first amendment right in question here is not free speech. It's freedom of the press. That belongs to the guy who owns the printing presses and the barrels of ink. The WP analogy is the servers and the software. The Foundation has this right, delegated in large measure to contributors within a set of rules prescribed, ultimately, by the Foundation. Jean, you have no right of free speech here. The Foundation has a right of unfettered freedom of the press. If you want to exercise that kind of freedom, buy yourself a bunch of servers and buy, develop or license the software (some you can find as "freeware"). Then you can exercise your freedom of speech and your freedom of the press (at least here in the U.S.) You have no such right here on WP. David in DC (talk) 01:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Careful, David - the Foundation will have section 230 issues if you keep likening it to a newspaper publisher (emoticon would go here if I used the things). Sarcasticidealist (talk) 01:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All analogies are imperfect. :) <----(I use them)David in DC (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All right, IANAL, but here's my basic understanding of free speech issues. First, the First Amendment only applies to Congress; private organizations are not required to provide anyone a forum for their speech. The closest any law comes to requiring that would be common carrier laws, which require all common carriers to carry any and all legal traffic that's willing to pay the service fee. Wikipedia is not a common carrier. A railroad is a common carrier, as is a phone company or internet service provider, but Wikipedia is not, and thus isn't legally required to provide anyone with a forum to express their opinions. Again, I'm no lawyer, but that's my understanding of it. And I just got this information from someone I know who IS a lawyer regarding it: "Succinctly: Wikipedia is not the government. The Bill of Rights involves actions by the government, or a subdivision thereof." Rdfox 76 (talk) 01:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The First Amendment is on Wikipedia's side. The group can have First Amendment rights against the individual (see Boy Scouts of America v. Dale). --SMP0328. (talk) 01:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that was a First Amendment case because of a law, not private action. Quote: "...overturning the New Jersey Supreme Court's application of the New Jersey public accommodations law, which had forced the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) to readmit assistant Scoutmaster James Dale." That was an application of law, not simply a group/organization making a decision about a user. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 02:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The point was that the law infringed upon the private organization's First Amendment right to make such decisions regarding members/personnel. But this whole discussion thread is silly. Postdlf (talk) 02:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a lawyer, but these are my thoughts: WP:ATTACK is itself an exercise of free speech on the part of its author. The Marsh case, on the other hand, involved a governmental action. Somehow I think that "no governmental action" is dispositive. Marsh might, or might not, be applicable if somebody were to be prosecuted for unauthorized use of Wikipedia's services. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 04:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Marsh case did NOT involve governmental action..are you nuts? Did you even read the case? It was about a private company regulating speech on the property it owned... Come on, let's tighten up, here man!! JeanLatore (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IANAL, but I'm pretty certain cyberspace is not tangible property; thus the Marsh case applies here about as much as house deeds apply to stock holdings. The key word here is "property", which I'm pretty certain means tangible items (i.e. land, buildings) legally. As Wikipedia is not (a) tangible, (b) land, or (c) a building, it it therefore immune to the Marsh decision.

And before you make your argument again, consider these articles: chilling effect and defamation. Telling us to abide by the First Amendment (even if it doesn't apply to us) gives us the right to call people names you would personally not want to hear - freedom of speech cuts both ways, and if you can call someone an idiot, then I can call you someone who loves chukawk. By the same token, however, freedom of speech also does not allow libel (which is the deliberate publishing of falsehoods to defame someone; see the Seigenthaler incident), and such speech would still be removed on here per WP:BLP due to legal ramifications for the Foundation. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v E pluribus unum)} 18:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has the right to do anything on Wikipedia. The servers are the property of the Wikimedia Foundation, who can do whatever the fuck they want with them. It's basically the same as having a notebook. It's not your legal right to write "Marvin sucks" in my notebook (or anything else for that matter), so why should you have the same right on Wikipedia? If anybody gets to say whatever they want on Wikipedia, then it should be illegal to block anyone, or have protected pages. IPs should be able to edit the Main Page. But of course, that's the most idiotic idea in the history of man. Ziggy Saw dust 07:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just Wikipedia. I've lost count of the number of times people have tried to claim free speech on privately-owned websites. I occasionally post on a few messageboards, and if someone is cautioned or suspended for making personal attacks, they unfailingly resort to "You're suppressing my right to free speech!" Even if the entire world subscribed to American law, that fails. You do not have the right to free speech on someone else's property/website. They make the rules. If you don't like it, there are many other websites which may not care what you say or how you say it. Enigma ^message 20:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I lost track of how many times I was called a "nazi" back when I was a mod at Fanhome. People need to realize that private enterprise is not held to the same restrictions as the government is. And despite Jean Latore's repeated misguided complaints, Wikipedia is in no danger whatsoever of becoming so "gargantuan" that no alternative avenues for free speech exist. The internet is a hell of a lot bigger than one website. Reso lute 18:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Enigmaman, I might not know you are or what you stand for, but you are right. You are right given that the website does not control so many of the avenues of internet speech as to be able to shut out a person's avenues to make that speech. However, Wikipedia, perhaps not now, but soon will reach that gargantuan and powerful mass. That is when the First Amendment a la the Marsh case would apply to Wikipedia, even though it is not a government entity. JeanLatore (talk) 23:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball, so please stop wasting our time with fruitless what-ifs about Wikipedia possibly infringing on free speech. It's not going to happen. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 00:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you realize how generous Wikipedia is?

I've started this new subsection so that I'm not quite keeping this silly discussion going. Only one person here is honestly arguing that WP:NPA violates the First Amendment, and I humbly suggest that he take this discussion to his own talk page if he doesn't know it might possibly be time to give it a rest. However, I think there's a valid point that needs to be made: Do you realize how amazingly generous Wikipedia is on "free speech" issues? In many Internet communities, they can block or ban you just for saying something negative about the website. Here, we won't ban you just for criticizing Wikipedia. Anyway, if you honestly believe WP:NPA violates U.S. law, feel free to take it up with the Wikimedia Foundation's legal counsel. If he feels your argument has merit, he'll be happy to strike down the policy... szyslak (t) 17:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, really, please don't bother the counselor. Surely he has real work to do. Mangoe (talk) 19:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should bother the counsellor. There's a "reasonable accommodation" issue lurking in the background that a U.S. lawyer looking after the Foundation's interests ought to look at. David in DC (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, the First Amendment limits what the US Congress can do, it does not stop a private publisher from deciding what is and what is not allowed in their publication. I am Canadian and even I know that. _{1 != 2} 20:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, don't encourage people to waste other people's time. I was gunna suggest someone write an essay for this, but there's already Wikipedia:Free speech. Friday (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said above, Congress shall make no law. Wikipedia isn't Congress. Can we resolve this? --Kbdank71 20:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to my lawyer friend who I quoted above, the Supreme Court has ruled that the First Amendment also extends to state governments, and private organizations operating with an authorization from the US Government. For example, WXYZ-TV has a certain level of First Amendment obligations due to the fact that it operates with the permission of the US Government, in the form of the station's operating license from the FCC. Of course, this means nothing to Wikipedia, which has no such government license. Rdfox 76 (talk) 21:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The government also allows me to live in the state of Michigan, and that still doesn't mean I have to let people into my house to write things in my books. Ziggy Saw dust 21:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some clarifications: The First Amendment, notwithstanding its specific reference to Congress, has been applied to state governments and subdivisions thereof (counties, cities) under the Fourteenth Amendment, by what is called the Incorporation doctrine. A private organization acting pursuant to governmental authority (basically when governmental functions are outsourced to private commercial ventures, such as a private contractor running a prison) can be considered a state actor, under civil rights laws that allow individuals to bring suit for violations of their constitutional rights. Radio stations are given licenses by the FCC to broadcast on frequencies that are considered public property; the station's obligations to serve the public good are conditions of the license. All of which is interesting but of course completely irrelevant to Wikipedia. Postdlf (talk) 17:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My earlier comment may have been too obscure. When I say I think a Foundation lawyer should look at this, because of a "reasonable accommodation" issue lurking in the background, I'm not talking about the 1st amendment. I'm talking about the ADA. David in DC (talk) 16:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ADA???? Darkspots (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we're expected to make reasonable accommodations for people psychologically incapable of not making personal attacks? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we are, in the U.S., if the editor is a member of a protected class under the ADA. Please read the first line of Jean's User page. David in DC (talk) 20:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You'd do better to read the actual text of the law. Wikipedia is not a public accommodation. It's simply outside the scope of the ADA. Postdlf (talk) 21:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well-familiar with the ADA's text. It reaches waaaaaaaay beyond public accommodations. It requires an extraordinary array of institutions and individuals to make reasonable accommodations for people in protected classes. The meaning of the word "accommodation" in the phrase "reasonable accommodation" has nothing to do with the very different term "public accommodation." But as I said above, it's not the commenters here who need to take a close look at this, it's the Foundation's counsel. The very first line of Jean's User page puts us on notice that he's a member of protected class. David in DC (talk) 21:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He would be treated the same as any other user, regardless of his disabilities, if he were to persist in his silly belief that he has some kind of immunity from WP:ATTACK. His contributions are judged the same as anyone else's. In other words, there is no discrimination going on, unless we use his claim of being autistic to change how we treat him. The ADA angle isn't nearly the red-herring as the First Ammendment claim was, but it is equally as frivolous. Reso lute 21:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Public accommodations" are the primary private entities that are within the ADA's scope (Title III of the ADA). As that term is defined by the statute at 42 U.S.C. § 12181, it clearly refers to enumerated physical places such as restaurants, hotels, etc. If you didn't think Wikipedia was a "public accommodation," under what category of covered entities did you think Wikipedia was included, such that it would be subject to ADA requirements? Postdlf (talk) 21:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If ADA does apply, then I can, should I have had a bad day, be immune to punishment for calling people names and being a general c*** because I'm an Aspie and have a temper problem? -Jéské ^{(v^_^v E pluribus unum)} 04:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's what's being implied here. But y'know, someone will be arrested for standing in a public place screaming obscenities regardless of whether or not they have Tourette's syndrome. What the law chooses to do afterwards is a different issue. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindenting because of uncountable colons and arguably separate issue) I'm fairly sure the ban on "legal threats" would actually pose more of a constitutional issue in the U.S., but as szyslak points out, individual websites generally aren't required to let everyone day whatever they want to anyone they want. In fact, the English Wikipedia is far more tolerant of such things than most other foundation wikis (IME, at least). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 16:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Small fonts

Looking at one of today's articles in the news, Union of South American Nations, I find some of the text in small fonts to be hard to read. Not all of us have those new sharp digital monitors, and I'm sure many people have smaller monitors than mine. Yes I know there are ways to increase the size of text on the screen, but I'm not vision impaired, and have no problem with average font sizes. Look especially at the section with a map of South America halfway down the screen, or the bottom of the big table further down. I can make out the small text with a little difficulty, but the big problem is the superscripted reference numbers (1, 2, 3) - I'm having trouble seeing which is which. These numbers seem to be smaller, or at least harder to read, than the usual blue superscripted reference numbers in square brackets.

Why do we need small font text in Wikipedia articles, anyway? I think of small font as being appropriate for legal text, where a large block of text that most people don't care to read is crammed into a small space. Even then, I suspect legal text is printed small in a deliberate attempt to hide it, but that's getting off topic. The small text, as used in this article, is not overly wordy, nor is it something that is so trivial that it needs to be tucked away for the sake of appearance. I suspect the writers are just copying style they've seen used elsewhere, such as in printed books.

Do we have a policy discouraging small fonts? Do you think we should have one? --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sir I think you are right! We should have some standardisation of fonts and sizes on here. I don't like the current default font myself -- for a while I was signing my name in Edwardian script font, perhaps the site should use something like that a bit catchier. JeanLatore (talk) 22:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plug for a wikiproject: Wikipedia:Accessibility. Which does not recommend small small fonts. ~user:orngjce223 how am I typing? 01:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A few notes... WP:ACCESS is the guideline, Wikipedia:WikiProject Accessibility is the wikiproject. WP:ACCESS discourages the use of small fonts, but since it's not a policy it's not technically required for fonts to be standardized, simply recommended although I doubt you would run into much objection if you started making fonts larger, Ni. In a related story, I've been toying around with the idea of using {{hidden}} around the references section on articles in order to justify increasing the size of ref fonts. I've hit a few snags (namely the problem that when the ref section is hidden you cannot jump to it from the markers in the article) but you can see my example here if you're interested. L'Aquatique[talk] 05:00, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm concerned, the inability to jump to the references section is a deal-breaker. If you can't easily access the references, what's the point of having them? --Carnildo (talk) 06:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I absolutely agree. Right now I'm trying to figure out if there's a way I can code it so that when one clicks on the inline markers it sets the hidden template to show. I need to take a look at the {{hidden}} syntax- just haven't gotten around to it yet. L'Aquatique[talk] 03:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! I was thinking of the very same idea. It seems the reason why people put the references in multiple columns is to have them take up less space (vertically) and then the fontsize has been reduced so that they actually fit in narrow columns, making them even harder to read. So hiding them seems like a much better alternative, as you say getting the inline links to work should only be a minor scripting issue.

As for font sizes, good luck with that, I support larger fonts, but I think it will be hard to get support for any change of the base font size (and such). The graphical design of wikipedia is generally really, really awful. But whenever you suggest a improvement, someone is bound to come around and say "I don't care about your reasons, I like it better the way it is, go away you #@¤!" and most other people don't care enough to say anything. Since a change of the design is going to affect every user on the site, it requires serious consensus, and unless it is something that attract enough attention, that will never happen. So the result is this crappy design. It's sad, because the site could benefit tremendously (from a usability perspective at least) from some very small changes.
—Apis (talk) 03:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Yes, the size and format of refs has been a recurring problem that we [the accessibility team] have been dealing with. The multiple columns present both an aesthetic and coding problem and even people with fairly good vision are reporting troubles reading the eensie-weensie font. The hidden template, if we could get it to work, would be an ideal solution. I took a look at the source code of {{hidden}}- it's not nearly as complex as I thought for the simple reason that it is almost completely composed of other templates. I have a fairly good grasp of wikimarkup, but looking at it I just don't see the parts that make it do what it does. According to the template history, it was originally written by User:Azatoth. I have left a message on his talk page to see if he can offer some insight.
One last thing: I assume in your second paragraph you are referring to the discussion over at template talk:reflist about multicolumn support? I just read that, and I got to say, strange stuff. I believe that if we really want to incite change, we have to get people interested in it. Show that this is a real problem that can't just be blamed on a minority of people with buggy browsers. L'Aquatique[talk] 06:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of a different issue, but having larger fonts in the edit window would be a great help to older editors like me :). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 17:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No that wasn't what I was referring to, it was more of a general observation. How long did it take to get an error in the logo fixed for example. And that was a glaring error that ought to be obvious to anyone. I think more people would care about the multicolumn stuff if more than a minority of browsers supported it, as it is now it's only visible to a minority anyway. There are some valid uses for it, but the way it's generally used is more or less evil imo ;). I agree with the last part, but personally I'm not very good at getting people interested in stuff :/ I've seen several people complaining about small fonts but everyone just shudder at the thought of trying to change it. Still I can't think of any particularly good reason why we should use the smallest font possible we can cram in here. Computer monitors have really crappy resolution compared to printed media so they can get away with much smaller fonts. Maybe working more on wp:access to get it upgraded to policy could be a way forward? Anyway, hopefully the collapsible reference list can be made to work because that should make everyone happy without sacrificing usability. =)
—Apis (talk) 20:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, working at getting people interested in making wp:access a policy has been an ongoing process, with not a lot of support from the wider public. It seems that there is a (usually mistaken) belief that accessible pages are ugly and difficult to use for the rest of us, which is pure... well, you know. If we want to get WP:ACCESS to a policy we are going to have to show that accessibility helps everyone- not just people with screen readers, not just people with old computers, not just colorblind people: but everyone. L'Aquatique[talk] 20:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fricking awesome news, everybody! Just like Archimedes in his bathtub (well, maybe not that great, but at the very least extremely good) I do believe I have figured it out! I was almost about to give up, because the hidden template was going nowhere, when, suddenly, it occured to me... why not put in a scrollbar, like this:

this is a test
this is a test
this is a test
this is a test
this is a test
this is a test
this is a test
this is a test
this is a test

Sure enough, it works swimmingly. Cuts down on space significantly, but easy to read. If you click an inline marker it takes you directly to the corresponding reference, no scrolling required! Check out my new and improved test model, now live at User:L'Aquatique/Template Box.

The only thing left is to test is accessibility. I'm particularly interested in how it works with screen readers, so I'm going to get in contact with our screen reader expert and beg him to be my guinea pig for this little experiment... mwahahaha... L'Aquatique[talk] 21:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, putting refs in scroll boxes was shot down last year. Of course, consensus may have changed since then. I would think the better solution here would be to package your desires in a userscript. - AWeenieMan (talk) 22:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Check out User_talk:L'Aquatique#Re: your idea for the references section for some comments on the accessibility of using a scrollbar. L'Aquatique[talk] 01:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would a text-based recreation of a logo be illegal?

I know we can't do it as an image, but what what about as HTML or LaTeX? The logo in this case is the STL version of the St. Louis Cardinals logo. That has several overlapping letters. I don't care if the font or colors are correct as long as the letters end up in the correct position. I was thinking of use that for {{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/MLB-Cardinals}}. Currently, that has just "STL". Will (Talk - contribs) 06:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're fine. Such simple text can't be copyrighted. The specific style, bordering, font type, etc of the logo can be, but colored initials are fine. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, if you're speaking of mimicking the exact style of this, it would be a different story. You can use the initials, but copying the logo exactly, regardless of how, who be considered a derivative work. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a lawyer but I doubt it would be possible to mimic the exact style, aside from doing some elaborate ASCII art. I doubt simply overlapping the letters could be considered copyright infringement. — CharlotteWebb 16:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articles on VDF

What kind of articles has the most fights during the discussions during Vdf? --DimaG (talk) 00:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, not sure if I follow; what's VDF? VDF and WP:VDF are both redlinks. My only guess is that you're referring to the old votes for deletion process, maybe? – Luna Santin (talk) 02:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean VfD? now WP:Articles for Deletion? Reso lute 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To answer your question, you might be interested in Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Flying Spaghetti Monster.--WaltCip (talk) 13:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed change to banning policy

I have just noticed a puzzling formulation in Wikipedia:Banning policy, one that (I checked) was introduced in the very first version of the policy, few years back - but one that also seems contrary to our goal of building an encyclopedia. The formulation is: Any edits made in defiance of a ban may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves. In other words, this can be used (and I have seen this used in such a way) to justify reverting completly innocent edits such as Manual of Style changes (typo fixes, punctuation), addition of interlinks, or fixing of obvious errors. I think it is common sense that non controversial, innocent edits by banned editors should not be reverted just because they were carried out by a banned editor (or usually a suspected or confirmed sock of one). Of course, just be clear, if such a sock makes controversial edits, they should be reverted immediately and the block extended. But the idea that we should put enforcing our bans to the letter over the spirit of building an encyclopedia is just plain wrong. Feel free to comment at the policy talk page.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:15, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the above heading from blocking to banning, because this is what it is about. The two terms are not synonymous. Waltham, The Duke of 20:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They may be reverted, it doesn't force anyone to perform those reversions, it could be a bit clearer on that --Enric Naval (talk) 18:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Piotrus. What troubles me about this section is that I've seen people who believe that all edits by a sock of a banned user should be reverted immediately, as it is too much trouble to check and see which edits are good and which are bad. This is not a constructive activity. I've even seen an instance where a perfectly acceptable article was deleted, after multiple edits by other editors were made, because the originating author was a sock. This in particular is indefensible and unjustifiable. If someone is too lazy to actually look at edits before reverting/deleting them, than find someone who isn't. Due to the wording of the policy, the people doing this are fully within their rights, and I simply do not agree that this should be universally permissible, let alone encouraged. I will admit that this is sometimes necessary, in situations where a large number of edits were made, and there is little chance, due to the nature of the sock, that there were any good edits. However, in many cases the application of blanket reversion is extreme, and it is an activity with the potential for mass disruption, not to mention unnecessary duplication of effort. In my view if an edit is good, who made it is utterly immaterial. The purpose of banning, in my interpretation, is to relieve the Wikipedia community of an editor whose editing, for whatever reason, has been determined to be a consistent net negative to the extent that there is no logical purpose for allowing their continued participation in the project. If they edit constructively while banned, reversion of those edits to "enforce" the ban is a net negative, and is thus utterly at odds for the original reason for banning them.--Dycedarg ж 21:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I realize it's being a bit dickish to the banned user to revert even their innocent, good-faith changes, but this rule was created because some banned users were continuing to edit anyway, and after a certain point, we just have to give them the cold shoulder. Allowing those changes to stick gives them the satisfaction they need to continue editing, and they really aren't supposed to continue. Users are not banned lightly, and they aren't banned in ignorance of that rule, but rather with a clear awareness of it. Mango juice^talk 15:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Banned means banned. Not "banned when you are not nice". Everything by banned users should go. Dsmdgold (talk) 19:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One reason – not the only one – why such reversions are permitted by the banning policy is that in some cases the banned editor will continue to make superficially constructive edits as part of a pattern of stalking or harrassment. Continuing to conspicuously edit pages that are watched by a former adversary can be a way to stir the pot even after a ban—particularly if well-meaning editors jump in with 'Why are you reverting those apparently-reasonable minor edits?'. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Banning means the person is not welcome to edit here, so the rules makes a lot of sense to me. _{1 != 2} 19:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Categories/nationality

Bohemia is the old name of the territory of today's Czech Republic. Look at this edit. Goethe is also called "german writer" and today's Germany was not called "Germany" when Goethe was living. And as we call Michelangelo as an "italian" artist and not "Holy Roman Empire" artist, we call Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer "czech" architect, don't we?-- LYKANTROP 20:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Out of the news?

Are there any guidelines for when an event should be considered "no longer current"? Having some discussion about this on the Cyclone Nargis page. Also, are there any guidelines for using the "current event" article tag in a main article? (i.e. section vs. top of article). I've poked around, but can't find these policies (they may not exist, and that's fine).Somedumbyankee (talk) 05:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

where the template is placed is a matter of discretion. An article may not necessarily discuss an event exclusively, so it would be appropriate to limit it to a section. As for out of the news, that would be case by case. Cyclones, hurricanes, etc, tend to stay newsworthy for at least one month, so its appropriate. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 05:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to make a firm rule, here, yeah. I guess I'd say while sudden changes in circumstances and coverage continue to be likely, there's a case to be made that whatever event is "current." It may be worthwhile to distinguish between an event itself (a storm is currently ravaging cities) and its aftermath (relief efforts are ongoing), when it comes to disasters in particular -- {{current section}}, perhaps? – Luna Santin (talk) 09:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stop me before I spam again

Hey there,

I am attempting to reach out and get some input before I inadvertantly break any rules. Please forgive me if I am posting in the wrong area or breaking with policy in some way. I am a complete rookie when it comes to Wikipedia. I have attempted to research the rules on impartiality and spamming but I am unclear on how it may effect my situation.

Issue #1: I wish to post a mostly factual and historic page about the company I work for. I know, immediately this brings up red flags. However, I truly feel it is worthwhile information and would be valuable to some users of Wikipedia and I hate to wait for someone to decide to post regarding the company. I have tried to model the page after other company pages such as IBM, Intel, and HP and support any non-evident claims with references.

Issue #2: The account I am currently logged into was inherited from the guy who preceded me in this job. Is it ok that I use this account or should I use my own? I thought that using my personal account would make it appear that I was trying to be deceptive.

Issue #3: The person that held this job before me was perhaps a bit overzealous and posted a page that was considered less than impartial. Is there a way that I can ask someone with less of a personal interest in the matter to look over my page before posting? I would hate to be branded a repeat offender.

If I post a page again and it is somehow considered too commercial is there a harsher penalty than simple removal of the page? Or do I continue a trial and error method of posting until one is considered nuetral enough to remain? The nuetrality issue can be very subjective.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

thanks,

NBRII (talk · contribs) 16:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CORP provides some guidelines on what companies merit coverage in Wikipedia, and our guidelines on conflicts of interest deal with self-interested editing. A good rule of thumb might be that if you/your company are truly notable enough to merit an article, it shouldn't be necessary for you to write it yourself. Postdlf (talk) 16:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Postdlf, I had not seen that particular page. I will check it out. I agree that I would rather have someone else post about the company but two things tend to hinder that, #1 our subject matter tends to be somewhat dry and boring (although very essential) and therefore people do not line up to write about it and #2 the nature of our business calls for a lot of confidentiality so not many people know the ins and outs of the company.

Thank you for the quick reply and advice.

NBRI 16:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Those hindrances may preclude your company from having an article, as Wikipedia doesn't include information that hasn't been elsewhere published first in reliable sources. We can't accept article content that derives only from inside information of those who work for the company; this would be considered original research. Postdlf (talk) 17:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I find it helpful to start an article in one's user space, then get it critiqued there before moving it to the main space (and thereby opening it up to accusations of COI and the like.) Try creating a page like User:NBRII/Your company's name. When you think you've got an article that passes muster, ask around for people to look it over before you move it into the main space. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent advice, thanks ac.

18:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

As for your issue #2, you should absolutely make yourself your own account. "Role accounts" (ie, an account used by a group or entity rather than an individual) are disallowed; see meta:Role account. As for the first part... I think the advice above is good, but if your company is actually important enough to be covered, it might be worthwhile to try Wikipedia:Request an article. Mango juice^talk 15:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My advice would be as follows:

1) Definitely create your own account. I would keep your "work" account separate from your "personal" account, and take care not to edit the same pages with both accounts. On your "work" account, say that you are employed by your company.

2) Then start drafting the article in your user space. Please keep it as neutral as possible, and don't remove all details of any controversies that might already been in your article page. Wikipedia requires that all facts must already by in the public domain, and preferably in secondary sources (e.g. articles that third parties have written about your company). Fortunately, you're probably in a good position here: with your job at work, you no-doubt have comprehensive lists of articles about your company, along with other publically available information (stock-exchange filings, public government documents, etc). Cite all of the facts in the article from these documents, preferably using the <ref> tag. As a rule of thumb, you probably ought to link to at least 2 or 3 press articles about the company (and not just articles that merely repeat company press releases) – this will help to establish your company's notability.

3) Once you think that the article is ready, ask people to have a look over it. You probably ought to give a link to the draft in the talk page of the pre-existing company article. Also try the talk page of WP:CORP. Don't forget to mention that you are employed by the company – you want to avoid the impression that you are trying to hide your identity.

4) Once people have had the opportunity to comment (I'd allow at least a week), then double-check that you haven't missed anything that is in the current article, and copy your draft across. In the edit summary, I would once again point out that you are employed by the company.

I hope that this gives you some ideas. As long as you "play nice", most people will be understanding Bluap (talk) 23:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rollback for stewards

Hi, I am a steward and I am taking care about some articles on en.wp. As a steward, I am admin on every project. Besides privileges in which I am not interested at en.wp (blocking user, deleting and undeleting pages...), I've got "rollback" button. My question is: may I use it? It would help me in keeping consistent articles about I am taking care. --millosh (talk (meta:)) 08:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason why not. : - ) --MZMcBride (talk) 08:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely read Wikipedia:Rollback feature if you haven't already--people here feel very strongly that rollback should only be used to revert vandalism or your own edits. Darkspots (talk) 13:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely, though I'd expect you to only be using it for vandalism cleanup. EVula // talk // ☯ // 13:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, it is only about vandalism cleanup. For a long time my contribution to en.wp is related just to taking care about a small group of articles for which I suppose that no one else takes care. In my feed reader I usually see bot edits, nonsenses and vandalisms. At the contrast, I am taking care about Template:Case table, where I have to check every addition of the new case or "case"; and if it is not a grammatical case, I am always giving rationale on talk page. --millosh (talk (meta:)) 08:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trust. --millosh (talk (meta:)) 08:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have, actually, already made two rollback edits (I'm a steward as well) in response to vandalism-en emails on OTRS. I assumed there would be no problems if I used the tool only in clear vandalism cases. :) --Filip (§) 09:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Same for me. If there are no objections I would use it to revert vandalism that I come across. Thanks, --Thogo (Talk) 12:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A new site idea

There are so many people complaining about the no original research rule or about no forum or other things. Why dont somebody makes a mirror of wikipedia where all those things will be allowed?

When deleting a post you could say: go on wikimirror and post it there.

You will make free publicity this way.

How about this business idea?

How about somebody do it? Or even wikipedia do it? Raffethefirst (talk) 10:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the answer is, we are interested in building an encyclopedia, and don't have time to create a companion site that provides other services that many websites already provide. We could pick one other site with forums, etc., and direct everyone there, but that wouldn't be fair to all the other websites. I don't see how sending people to other sites gains us publicity. I presume you are aware that there are many mirror sites of Wikipedia, and also many sites that use the Wiki software (and therefore can look and work the same way) but have completely different content and rules. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 13:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

when I said you will make free publicity I mean you will do it for that site.

wikipedia should do it - it will have the advantage of the wikipedia brand and it should be done with commercials or something. It wont be an encyclopedia but an alternative for lot of people.

directing all unhappy users to a single place will be much nicer than saying you search the net there are lot of solutions for what you want to say.

Saying: go there. is a wikipedia where you can do that, will sound very good.

Users will be happy, wikipedia will be happy.Raffethefirst (talk) 15:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to read Wikipedia:Alternative outlets, where we often point people to. Regarding whether such an "alternative project" should be run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who runs Wikipedia and owns the "brand"), I think you'd have to ask them directly. --B. Wolterding (talk) 15:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I want to read Alternative outlets?
when a new user cames in, he usually wants to add personal research and such things. They dont know about Alternative outlets.
I am an casual wikipedia user for... few months and this is first time I hear this. And it is discouraging when your newly created page is deleted and you are (if) told that there are alternatives... if you will be provided a link or - better - your page will be just moved to this section, you will be very happy. First you wont know what has happen then in a week or two you will understand.
I dont spent much time here but I am sure wikipedia will be everything you want if such a place will exist.
Why not wikipedia be more than an encyclopedia? If people want more, why not to give them. This is an opportunity in the market.
You - the old one here - think about this and do what you have to do to ensure this if you find it a good thing. Raffethefirst (talk) 16:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because we aren't here to give them more. We're here to provide people with an encyclopedia. If you're looking for someone to publish your research, you're in the wrong place, because that isn't what Wikipedia is about. Everything here has to be verifiable in secondary, reliable sources. One of the foundational ideas of the project is that anyone can edit it. Allowing original research woulr equire us to only expert users with credentials to edit; after all, for obvious reasons, we can't just some guy's essay, since it could be vastly incorrect, and only someone else familiar with the subject material is able to point that out. Everything has to be verifiable, and original research doesn't allow that. Otherwise we would just become a rumor mill with nothing useful. Celarnor ^{Talk to me} 20:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)9[reply]

Indeed, there are thousands of scientific articles where you can publish original research, free of charge; if the quality of your aruments is of sufficient value. If you want to publish original research, try there. Arnoutf (talk) 20:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia should continue to be what it is. No changes here. Is good how it is now.
Is just that there is a demand for something else.
Wikipedia should make a brother site where to redirect all unhappy users - making them happy and also becoming more popular.
Yahoo is a mail provider but is also a search tool. Everybody is expanding and diversifying where there is a market. There is such a NONO in the atmosphere in wikipedia... I think I will leave now. is making me sick. Raffethefirst (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Making users happy is not necessarily Wikipedias aim. (btw Yahoo is a search engine which has diversified into the e-mail business). Not everybody is diversifying where there is a market regardless of principle... First of all there are nowadays things like corporate responsibily limiting companies to expand into e.g. weapons, or unethical trade; secondly most companies do a SWOT analysis and only diversify based on that. Original research is not a strength of Wikipedia, so no reason to go there. Innovations for OR have been forthcoming, e.g. as Plos. Arnoutf (talk) 20:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a solution to transform the NONO atmosphere int a YESYES_WELCOME atmosphere and also increase wikipedias users and whatever advantages they might get. And sure there are advantages if the users are happy. I came here so rarely because the conversations here make me run and only came back after a long brake.
And is not only about original research. Think at all the reasons why you delete pages. Users are making pages for their business - this I imagine - and there are also lot of other reasons that makes users unhappy.
Wikipedia should allow all this under a separate site but put some small links in pages where those are connected like in philosophy page to have a link to the other site where are listed all original research in philosophy. Also users should be allowed to have more liberty in building their own userpages - in this new site. I think this will be used by lot of people because of the ease and complexity of self design that is possible.

In wikipedia is a war now: the guardians that will delete everything that dont respect the rules [you are so sad people... :)...] and the hordes of freestylers users that are keen for freedom... You will solve this war implementing this new site - area or whatever you want to call it.Raffethefirst (talk) 14:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By now you understand that there are other appropriate sites on the internet, and yes, we do refer users to those sites sometimes. Your remaining argument is that Wikipedia should be running such an alternate site. But why? That's not what we're here for. Let it be done by people who are keen and dedicated to that idea. As for complaining "the guardians will delete everything that doesn't respect the rules", take a look at any message board that is not monitored (i.e. it has been abandoned by the people who set it up). It decays until it contains nothing but spam for porn sites! So of course any website with an aim, has to be maintained to keep it on track. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 16:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

> But why?
Because users will be happy and therefore wikipedia will be more happy.
3 times already said.
> That's not what we're here for.
Who are "we"? You mean you - the guardians? Wikipedia will still be the same so you will still have plenty of things to delete - dont worry.
I am talking about a different site. DIFFERENT
I dont know why I insist into this problem since I only get NONO_CANTDO. I think I wont argue you guys until got a positive response :). Raffethefirst (talk) 16:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But you are right: I should have talked from the beginning with the ones that own the site - the foundation... I will address them. I hoped you will see the opportunity to solve much of your problems and do it yourself and spare me of doing it... but you - NONO_CANTDO... Raffethefirst (talk) 16:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, because the volunteers who maintain Wikipedia won't help you set up a site that has nothing to do with the goals of Wikipedia but nevertheless will enjoy the reputation and prestige of being associated with it, you are entitled to accuse those volunteers of being negative, sad little people that make you sick? Gee, thanks! Darkspots (talk) 16:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

> won't help you set up a site
me? help me to setup a site? It was an idea to improve the quality of life on wikipedia for all users new or volunteers.
> that has nothing to do with the goals of Wikipedia
what is so bad in extending an encyclopedia into something else? And it wont affect it at all as an encyclopedia. Different name, different look... It only has to be connected by a small link in all pages giving thus more options and informations. And all pages that fit that place should be send there or told to be moved there - not DELETED.
Yes I accuse you because you did not understand that this is not for me as I understand it from your tone. This is an improvement suggestion to witch you only could say: you must read chapter 17 rule 12. NOT ALLOWED. Please follow the rules.
Which of you did provided an argument that this is a bad idea? Lets see:
- we are interested in building an encyclopedia - translation : I did not understand that the encyclopedia wont change at all by doing this but we must follow the rules
- You might want to read Wikipedia:Alternative outlets, where we often point people to. - translation: I have no arguments but we have rules that you should read first.
- Because we aren't here to give them more - translation: why not letting them feel miserable when we delete their pages?
- If you're looking for someone to publish your research, you're in the wrong place, because that isn't what Wikipedia is about. - translation: If you want to put here some original research you will have to deal with me.
- and so on.
NOT 1 argument why not. The idea is how you dont have to worry about original research. But you did not even get that through you mind entirely. "What? somebody said original research? let me handle it." So I guess is my imagination that you are negative and sad people. And the part when you make me sick is just my stomach that cant take too much NONO for free. Please ignore that. Raffethefirst (talk) 17:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like the original poster's idea. I will now leave and ponder the exact reasons why and come back later tonight and expound on it. Thanks all, JeanLatore (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can somebody tell me how can I address the Founders or the Foundation to tell them about this idea? I should make a new thread in foundation page? Or an email or something else? Raffethefirst (talk) 17:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[3] x42bn6 Talk Mess 17:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Raffethefirst (talk) 17:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is extremely difficult to pull a coherent point out of your prose. What you really fail to realize is that people volunteer their time here to create en encyclopedia because they want to see an encyclopedia get paid. As editors here, we don't get paid money for what we do. If you were to install MediaWiki on some other webserver and say "This is just like Wikipedia except we allow anything", you're perfectly free to. Nothing is going to stop you. But most of the people here aren't going to help you because that's not what most of us want to volunteer our time to. As a community, we've decided that we don't want OR here, and everything has to be verifiable in reliable sources. I certainly wouldn't want to contribute time to improving an encyclopedia where some random Joe's opinion about quantum mechanics gets the same level of attention as Schrodinger. As nice as it would be to not have to worry about OR, I just don't think its feasible to get people to go there from here. In fact, personally, I think we need more verfiability in general, not less, so it is very unlikely for me to go there and contribute. Basically, all you would have there are the OR and POV pushers, and you'll end up with a lot of needless drama and POV/edit wars. It's really doomed from the start, and I really don't think that the Foundation is going to be interested in providing hosting for your project, but the contact information you seek can be found here. Celarnor ^{Talk to me} 17:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why I put this initiative here? I imagined (dont know why as I had some previous unpleasant experiences) that it will find supporters and they will take care of it like improving it and informing the responsible people...
I agree that my ideas were not very coherent as they came on the way.
Let me sumarise them.
- a different site. (this mean that what current volunteers do wont be changed at all)
- where users could do pages that will be allowed to include almost all that they want (no porn or horrible things.)

 - They could have pages with their theories here.

 - pages about themselfs where they could put pictures with their family or things that they like, songs, videos and be able to arrange those as they want.

 - pages where they could advertise their little companies

- those pages should be somehow connected to the relevant wikipedia pages. by very small links maybe. Thus Joe wont wont get the same level of attention as Schrodinger. If somebody will like to see (amuse) the original research thories that exist in one domain they will click that little link. And I am sure there will also be some good stuff.

Maybe somebody else will dare to think at some other things here?

Advantages:
- all pages that usually are deleted will be moved or directed there. thus users will be happy and wont feel that they had a bad experience while trying to contribute to wikipedia.
- the administrators wont have so much work as users will agree more easily to have their page moved to another section of wikipedia in stead of being deleted or they will do it themselfs from the begining.
- the enciclopedia will remain the same and there will be more happy users that will join and contribute to it.
- the number of users will drastically increase and I am sure this is something the founders want.

Disadvantages: I cant figure one.

Please take this idea and analise it slow... slow... maybe you will find something usefull in it.Raffethefirst (talk) 18:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want to host this yourself? If not, and you want the Foundation to pick up the bill, there's an obvious financial disadvantage. You'll also be competing with other, similar, more accepted and more widely used projects and initiatives that do similar things (Wikinfo, PLOS, etc) to what you describe. If you're going to do it as a wiki, you'll have to find people to contribute if you want it to do anything. That means publicity, advertising, etc. It also means establishing policy for the wiki and possible legal representation/advicey for when the articles with libel and defamation get moved to your site. Celarnor ^{Talk to me} 18:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you plan on copying content from Wikipedia, there are also licensing considerations. The GFDL requires that you retain the names of the top 5 contributors at the very least, so simply copying the text out of the current revision doesn't work; you'll have to get database dumps for the content if you want to move it to another wiki, and that's a performance disadvantage for us here. Some editors dual-license with a Creative Commons license, so you'll also have master what that means in terms of copying and re-use of their content. It also means that you have to check every principal contributor of the article you want to copy to find out whether or not this is something you need to pay attention to. Celarnor ^{Talk to me} 18:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me and my friend had an idea like yours, actually, a mirror of wikipeodia but with more focus on sex and pornography, and greater coverage of U.S. Census-designated places that are more like a town than a neighbourhood. Our policies would be the same, except it would take two admins to block a user, IPs could edit freely, and the "no personal attacks" would be loosened, and the "no legal threats" policy done away with entirely. Let people bluster all they want, but the proof is in the summons and complaint. JeanLatore (talk) 00:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I personally dont agree having pornography on wikipedia or in any related sites (related by brand). My proposal is to extend somehow what is wikipedia but to keep it nice. I answered to you so my idea dont be confused.
Having sex, drugs and party might be great but I am talking about something constructive here - or at least this is how I see it. Raffethefirst (talk) 05:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So - thanks but NOCANTDO :). This is just my personal answer - is not an answer citing the wikipedia rules. Raffethefirst (talk) 05:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have mail them and who will guess what was the answer?
"all changes to the way Wikipedia works come from its community of editors."
How about this? So I was right to came and tell you about this idea. You are the one that must do it.
But I guess with your negativism the project has no chances - right?
The only serious counter argument was who will pay for it. Why do you care? They said that if you want something to be changed - they will do it.
So please thing again at advantages and disavantages - viewed from your place as editors. Raffethefirst (talk) 06:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason people use Wikipedia as an information source is that it is (at least somewhat) reliable. Nobody would use this thing you describe. Ilkali (talk) 06:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it wont be a place where people will go to search informations.

But is not this the main goal. The main goal is not to have (so many) unhappy users on one side and stress and lot of work as a volunteer - the other side.

And I am sure we will discover many useful things inside.

Now lets establish first if what I consider is true:

are there lot of users that are unhappy and is the job as a volunteer hard and stressful because the users being unhappy try to revenge somehow? Raffethefirst (talk) 07:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I notice two issues emerging here.

You are advocating another version of wikipedia that allows editors to contribute more freely than Wikipedia. I think all contributors to this debate think there is no problem, but seriously doubt whether it should be Wikipedia foundation who hosts that site
You say more freedom would make editors less stressed and more happy with such a project. Nevertheless you do not advocate complete freedom (e.g. limiting pornography). In my opinion such limitation will always create unhappy editors, and limiting that will ask for a well balanced set of inclusion/exclusion criteria, and a body of editors who check against these limits. Setting that limit will always be somewhat arbitrary.

Wikipedia does this using several guidelines that try to achieve balance in the project. Not only the original research but also the notability (the major filter against spam and personal interest edits overwhelming the project), neutral point of view (an edit needs to address the issue from as neutral a point of view as possible) and censorship (this is actually a guideline protecting editors from the whims of other editors (as long as something is notable, no original research and does not violate a neutral point of view - I agree strong conditions) edits cannot be removed because of dislike of other editors). Arnoutf (talk) 09:53, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, man, Arnoutf, I like your comment! I think I totally understand what those points are, finally... (oh and I'm high as hell right now), but anyway, I would just like to add that NPOV applies to Article Creation as well, and can be used as a basis to delete an entire article, not just a non-neutral edit in an existing article. That is because some topics are inherently NPOV and thus even constructive edits to them are tainted. (attack articles, et al.) Plus, i am having a hard time taking the OP seriously. JeanLatore (talk) 15:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing to mention is our guideline about biographies of living people. Careful enforcement of BLP issues is necessary to avoid a ton of legal liability--as well as embarassing and annoying a lot of people--and I seriously doubt a site more casual about BLP would be of any interest to the foundation. Darkspots (talk) 11:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If people don't use it to find information, there'll be no incentive for people to post information there. Nobody would use the thing. Ilkali (talk) 11:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

> "but seriously doubt whether it should be Wikipedia foundation who hosts that site".
What is the reason for that?
Here is the reason why it should be:
There are lot of other alternatives but the users dont want them. they want to be part of wikipedia. And it will also be good for wikipedia to have as an encyclopedia links from its pages to the original research area. It will be very constructive I think. It will be a respectable encyclopedia but closer to the people. Having a link to this area wont decrease the respect that now exists.
> "You say more freedom would make editors less stressed and more happy with such a project"
Having this new site will make the existing wikipedia editors much happier.
I did not imagined what will be the situation of the editors of the other site...
You see - this idea is just getting shape for me also. I am especting help to build this idea.

Main idea is to allow pages with almost everything, pages with original research, pages with companies, pages with song formations and what ever else users do and you delete them.

But not on wikipedia - but somewhere else.
But not to far away from wikipedia so the users dont feel they are being fooled.
There must be connections between those two. You as editors here will direct all appropriate content there and will exist links in pages from here to there so an original research page to be in a very small degree connected to its main article in wikipedia.

This is how you solve much of this problem - unhappy users and busy wikipedia editors.
This will produce a growing number of active users also.

Now - how is this going to take shape - how this nea site should be organised, about editors and stuff I dont have many ideas. You should give it a try and think about it as you are more experimented into those.

> "If people don't use it to find information, there'll be no incentive for people to post information there"
You are wrong. This will give them hope and will be something more nice than having their ideas deleted. You say to them: we have this area where you can post original research and it will be connected to the main article. We respect your opinions and they wont be deleted.
They will be very happy with theat. Raffethefirst (talk) 11:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

> "I seriously doubt a site more casual about BLP would be of any interest to the foundation."
I agree on this.
How about users be allowed to make only pages about things they own?
Not allowed to make pages like : "My opinion on Bush".
But allowed to make pages like: "My theory", "My personal page", "My business", "MY...".
There will be dummies - empty pages or just title of pages - of all wikipedia pages and they will have the possibility to link their pages to those.
Internally all the pages from this new site will be displayed on a new page (X).
And in philosophy area of wikipedia should be this small link to this (X) page with all the links. Raffethefirst (talk) 11:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments

> "There are lot of other alternatives but the users dont want them. they want to be part of wikipedia." - Well there are a lot of alternatives for me engaging in sports. But I don't want them as I want to be part of my national Olympic team...... That is of course MY problem, not of my national Olympic team. You just can't always get what you want.

> "And it will also be good for wikipedia to have as an encyclopedia links from its pages to the original research area." Why would that be good for Wikipedia. Original research without any quality check would allow all kinds of fringe theories being posted. I truly do not see how Wikipedia can benefit from that.

> "It will be a respectable encyclopedia but closer to the people." Again, without strict quality control that respectibality cannot be taken for granted; neither can it be enforced. Putting strict quality control into place means removal of lots of stuff, ie this is what the current Wikipedia does. Anyway an encyclopedia closer to the people is not necessarily a good thing as such an encyclopedia would be filled with "everybody knows", "I learned this from a men in a bar", facts and other strongly sourced information.

>"You as editors here will direct all appropriate content there and will exist links in pages from here to there so an original research page to be in a very small degree connected to its main article in wikipedia." and then "and busy wikipedia editors". First of all, the use of "will" sound like an obligation to current editors to move the content. Moving content will always be more work compared to deletion, so setting up a guideline for content moving will only result in more busy editors; and will increase one of the problem you observe. As this side-project will not be the aim of most frequent editors; I think that idea is not realistic. Arnoutf (talk) 12:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

> "You just can't always get what you want"
Is not about making them a gift - is about solving a problem. they will be happy and thus wikipedia will be happy.
> "Original research without any quality check would allow all kinds of fringe theories being posted. I truly do not see how Wikipedia can benefit from that."
Well - look in my user page. I have some ai projects listed.
If in wikipedia main article of ai porjects will be this small link to original research there will be MUCH MORE of what I got in my list.
If you will take the time to look at the items in my list you will find very interesting projects taht are running and will help people (not all of course but some).
This small link will not affect the existing wikipedia. You will stil have your standards here. Or even better as you will have more time to do useful things.
When clicking this link you will be presented an disclaimer saying that the information that are posted here are "not notable" or "original research" and is the users choice to view them.
> "Moving content will always be more work compared to deletion"
I dont think so. It could be the same procedure. You apply a flag on the db to an page and a cron will move it to the other DB.
How you delete it the same will be to move it. Or you could continue with the deletion policy and present the user the choice to move himself to the other site.
> "I think that idea is not realistic"
What would have you said if somebody would have presented you the present wikipedia project? Raffethefirst (talk) 13:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re solving problem - What is the problem exactly? Unhappy editors leave or conform to project standards. Either way, problem solved.

Re Original research. I am pretty sure your page does not list "random bits" of ideas from unqualified people. So some level of quality control needs to be enforced there as well. How will that be organised (WP Original research is an obvious, and objective way)

Re more work: I really do not see how moving could be not more work/simpler than the following: Opening edit view on a page. Selecting the text that does not qualify to Wiki standards. Push delete button on your keyboard. Type in a summary like "remove OR". Push "Save page" button. Perhaps you can elaborate on that.

Re "not realistic". You have interpreted that out of context. I do not say your project is not realistic. I only say that involving Wikipedia editors who do not care about the side project to engage in moving actions is not realistic. Arnoutf (talk) 14:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

> "What is the problem exactly?"
unhappy USERS that are not contributing to wikipedia because they feel miserably when their pages are deleted. They also do things to revenge (I imagine this) and keep the editors busy.
> "So some level of quality control needs to be enforced there as well."
Negative on that :). All what they want to say in their pages is allowed on the subject as long is not offensive.
If one will say that "I think I made a robot from 2 coins that is thinking", he should be allowed.
When clicking on the link from wikipedia ai page to this area you will be presented all the links to all the pages that users build as original research and they connected to wikipedia ai.
There will be categories in this list like... hm... the users will vote marks to those articles and so they will fit into one category or another. Or just listed in other order... or we will find a criteria to sort somehow the links.
This is important if you want to amuse yourself or to see something serious without having to guess.
Those questions will be answered by making annalise's... asking people... I am sure we will find a way to this.
> Re more work:
What you have described dont apply to this idea. This only works on full pages. You put a message on a page that if the content wont change, it will be moved to the other section.
For text inside articles just use delete as before.
> Re "not realistic".
I dont know the numbers of pages deleted. This mean unhappy users.
I dont know how much of the all unhappy users will be made happy by this project.
If this is an important percent it will be a good thing to do and the editors will have to "leave or conform to project standards" to quote you on that.
You can imagine the conflicts you have now will be diminished with that percent of unhappy users that transform themself into happy users. Raffethefirst (talk) 14:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree:

We do not need edits from editors who are unhappy to conform to the rules, so only happy they are out. Vandals are dealt with on a daily basis by using rollback functions. Disappointed editors are likely only small part of all vandalism.
Assuming you operation would be a success. How would someone going to your site on a heavily debated issue like say "creationism" makes sense of the several thousands of opinions there? Data wihout management is not information; and this will be a major challenge for your project.
Ok for full pages something maybe possible (through automated bots). However, your claim is that you don't want unhappy editors. In my experience editors are very often very unhappy if sections are removed from existing articles. Actually most edit wars-page protection and editors being punished are the result of such "in article" deletion and not of the article for deletion procedure, which is transparent, clear and obvious in its effect. So in my opinion your proposal only covers one source of unhappiness, and in my opinion a minor source. I think limiting to full-pages goes against your main aim, allowing editors to place stuff not allowed on Wikipedia elsewhere. But that is an issue for the spin-off project to consider.

In brief, I do not think your project will fly. Of course you are welcome to try; but am not convinced this should through a formal combination with Wikipedia. Arnoutf (talk) 15:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I went into this quest assuming that most of the trouble or a big part are made by users that had pages deleted and they want to revenge. I thought there might be a reason for vandalism.
I think here should be done some researches and if what I think is true then this kind of project might be a solution.
> "and this will be a major challenge for your project" a challenge indeed - but nothing more.
"in article" wars could also have as a partial solution this site.
When you delete a part of an article that view disappear and only the enemy's one is visible. This sure is a reason for war. But if you will say: you might be right, but the majority has the other opinion. We will keep here the majority opinion bat you are free to add this section to the other site. Thus they will be presented with an option. An option is much better than no option.

All those I have said are only valid in a combination with wikipedia because as I said before there are alternatives but they want to be here not there. This site must be somehow closer to wikipedia that the other ones. Raffethefirst (talk) 15:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was impressed by the length of this thread until I realised that most of it is the OP's lengthy replies to various comments, not the comments themselves. In any case my stance has switched to mild oppose, and I have one next question for the OP: What are the technical and logistical requirements of this plan? JeanLatore (talk) 15:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting question. I would say... 10 million $, a team of 100 programmers at minimum, 10 - 20 trucks of beer and one or 2 of whiskey... In 5 years I think is doable.

now seriously: how should I know to answer that? Raffethefirst (talk) 18:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Company Articles

Please forgive any breaches of form; I'm posting this more as a user suggestion than a member of the editing community.

Many articles on specific corporations begin with a history, moving on to article-specific topics.

I believe it would an improvement if there was a prior section summarising who the company is and what it does.

A large part of the time I find myself at these articles because they have been referenced in an exterior news source. I am not looking for details, but merely enough to understand the reference within its context. Instead of reading through paragraphs of text, a simple summary of who Bloggs Ltd are would be preferable.

Cheers, RTH

Ride the Hurricane (talk) 15:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely correct, and Wikipedia's Manual of Style says just that (for all articles, not just the ones about corporations) in its section on first sentences. Unfortunately, not all editors have the skill to design a short and to-the-point opening paragraph, and there are also editors who prefer to add material to the top of the article where this is not appropriate. I can only suggest that if you see problems like this in an article, and have a good sense of how it can be made better, go ahead and fix it. This will be appreciated. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 16:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Define "English speakers" in WP:NC

The major criteria in naming, as laid out in WP:NC, is [...] greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize. Hence, the definition of English speakers is vital for the particular policy-- but it has never been defined in the article.

However, the meaning of English speaker can be open to dispute in several naming disputes.

The closest term to English speaker, Anglophone, refers to an English-speaking population especially in a country where two or more languages are spoken, and the related geographical term Anglosphere refers to places where English is the mainly spoken.

On the other hand, as mentioned in English language, at most 10% of all English speakers uses it as the first language. As a matter of fact, the current prominence of the English Wikipedia has seen it as the major data source for the Internet-literate with an acceptable command of English.

As a result, the definition of English speaker would greatly affect the sample in evaluating which is the name those of them would easily recognize.

I personally do not have a preference, just wanting to start a discussion here. --Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 17:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The intent, I'm sure, was to say that names should be the ones most frequently used, as seen and heard in texts and speech in the English language. For example, Germany instead of Deutschland, even though most English speaking people probably know what Deutschland means. If the word Deutschland is used more often by English speaking people in that country than Germany is, then there could be a problem, but I don't believe it is, in this instance. I don't think there was any intention to say that if a person who speaks both English and German typically uses the word Deutschland when speaking in German, that should add weight to using Deutchland at WP, just because he is also an English speaking person. Is that what you were saying? --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 16:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To SC: Do you have a concrete example of a discussion in which the meaning of English speaker has been disputed? Darkspots (talk) 16:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would quote a dispute one year ago, that for a Case Closed's: RM request. The Japanese publishers has an official English name for this manga, Detective Conan, and was labelled prominently on all printed material with the exception of US, UK, and Canada. In the latter countries, trademark issues with Conan the Barbarian forced licensees to adopt the name Case Closed.

Although the meaning of "English speaker" was not discussed in this RM, but we have a case where most first-language English users use one name while all second-language English users use another. As a result, the definition of English speaker would have important effects on this debate, which is still raised occasionally (Talk:Case Closed#Why not Detective Conan?).--Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 23:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A parallel to this discussion would actually be to yank the phrase "English Speakers" and replace it with "People writing in English." Spoken usage is almost impossible to document unless someone paid for a poll. As someone pointed out in the Burmyanmar discussion, where Burma is common in spoken language but uncommon in writing (the BBC being a major dissenter), Wikipedia is a written document. How people say it shouldn't be relevant, how people write it should be. Just my two kyat.Somedumbyankee (talk) 20:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Attacks in AFD

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cook Out (restaurant) contains obvious personal attacks against the nominator: "ten pound hammer is a [bleep]" I've never been quite clear: is it permissible to remove obvious personal attacks from such pages? Nyttend (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. Ty 02:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is any hard-and-fast rule about when personal attacks should be removed or not. I think Tyrenius's removal of that particular attack was the right approach; it was an anon, an spa, and egregious to boot. Darkspots (talk) 02:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability (aircraft)

Hey all - some months back, I drafted a set of notability guidelines for aircraft based on common practice by WikiProject Aircraft and some relevant deletion outcomes. These have been discussed by WikiProject Aircraft, and following some changes, I've moved them into project space and am now looking for some feedback from the wider community.

I'll admit that I'm a complete newbie at the policy-making process, so any procedural guidance would also be greatly appreciated. I'm particularly mystified as to what is supposed to happen between the listing of a proposed guideline and its promotion into policy - if there's a page that describes this process, I'd be grateful for a pointer, since I wasn't able to find it. Cheers --Rlandmann (talk) 03:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested

Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. I would really appreciate your feedback from any interested editors! You can find the draft guidelines here, and place your feedback on the talk page. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 05:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Notability Guideline for Places and Transportation

There is a proposed guideline for assessing notability of places and transportation which hasn't yet (to my knowledge) been listed here to gather consensus. It has become clear that this guideline needs to be finalized soon, as it seems that User:FritzpollBot will not reach a consensus on whether to start adding stubs for all inhabited places in the world until that guideline is official. The discussion at WP:Village pump (proposals) is just going to go in circles until a community-wide consensus is reached on the guideline. I believe that this page is the correct forum for talking about the guideline. If I am wrong, please move my comments to the correct forum and let me know. Thank you.--Aervanath's signature is boring 20:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Had a quick look, and the proposed guideline is in its details (IMHO) too much US-specific for project wide application. So I would not support it as is. Arnoutf (talk) 20:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sister sites for well-researched miscellany

A search for all Wikipedia entries containing "Enterprise episode" reveals a jumbled mess: a separate entry for nearly every episode of the TV show, inconsistently including (Enterprise episode) or a variation thereof for the sake of disambiguation -- perhaps extinction and Extinction (Star Trek: Enterprise) coexisting in the same directory space is indicative of a much larger problem. It's great that Wikipedia provides information like this in a convenient place, but when it goes against the site's own policies, and when a more specialized wiki exists just to cater to this topic, why not remove the offending sites from Wikipedia and redirect instead to the specialized wiki? --38.100.221.66 (talk) 22:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]