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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Keizuko (talk | contribs) at 21:01, 12 August 2008 (→‎Another sockpuppet of Signsolid: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

RfB

Hey, I hate to be the one to inform you, but, I'm afraid it appears that your RfB has been closed as no consensus [1]. I thought you would have made a great 'crat, and, hopefully you'll review the opposition's comments, and work on those areas, then try again in a while. SQLQuery me! 15:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on your RfB

Hi Avi. First I wanted to say, sorry that you didn't pass your RfB, but congrats that the process is over. I had some thoughts on the RfB that I wanted to share with you. This weekend I was considering voting, putting in a support. I didn't, and finally, this morning, I thought and didn't again. The reason? There was already an established sizeable opposition. The weight of the various oppose reasons could be argued, but none-the-less, they were for the most part valid. In regards to becoming a bureaucrat, I'm a strong believer that there should only be a promotion when there is virtually no legit opposition. I didn't add my support, because while I think you are qualified and would make a good 'crat, I think it is more important to respect the opposition's current concerns. Bottom line: I didn't want you to pass because enough community members raised their own personal concerns. This leads to a serious concern: because of accepted rules of promotion, we might be doing the wrong thing, not promoting someone who will likely help where we need it... a clear "net-positive", if you will. In all likelihood, if the crats promoted you, you would go on to do good for the project and would no doubt benefit others. However, there would always be that nagging thing, 20 or so good contributors who felt you weren't ready. Finally, my point: The strength of Wikipedia is not in its ability to always do what's for the best, but rather, to hold consensus above virtually everything. The whole project seems to be based on the theory that consensus is more important than anything, and who knows, that might be right. So, the Catch 22 is that I think it would be the best for everyone and everything if you had become a crat this time around, but it would have undermined the concept of clear consensus, which in these parts, is everything. So, maybe we suffer a little now without a good crat, but the stubborn project lives on. Hopefully it lives on to see RfB Avraham 3, where all opposition concerns have been properly addressed and we can have you in an appropriate rank. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 15:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your message Avi. I am little disappointed myself that your RFB did not pass, I still think you would make a good bureaucrat and I have done my research to come to that assessment. My suggestion now is simply to try and address the oppositions concerns, continue to contribute to to the RFA process, and try again in the future. Good luck! Camaron | Chris (talk) 16:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the unfortunate turn of events. If it is any consolation, your support section was indeed lengthy and massive. That should buoy your spirits. I think you'd make a fine bureaucrat despite the so call "lack of WP:U participation". Anyway, good luck to you in the future if you decide to run again. I'll be there with my sign of endorsement aloft. : ) Cheers dude. Look forward to your comments at RfA. Wisdom89 (T / C) 16:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Second'd. Ironically, the fact that the result was No Consensus as opposed to Did Not Succeed should be encouraging, as well. Thanks also for the kind note - and I'll be happy to support you if and when you take another shot. Best, UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 16:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And indeed thirded. I spent a fair while looking through all the arguments as I hadn't really run into you before - and after I had, I really felt you'd make a great bureaucrat. Good luck if you do choose to go for it again in the future, I hope you do! ~ mazca talk 16:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with the above. IMO, the opposes weren't that convincing, but oh well, you can always try again. Good luck if you do. (and let me know ifwhen you do, I'll support then too unless you delete the Main Page between now and then. ¬_¬ ;) ) Thingg⊕⊗ 17:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was very disappointed at the decision — I felt with a tally of 82% supporting your nomination, it should definitely have been closed with consensus to promote. I think the point that was made by the bureaucrats that there were a fair few people opposing per people who were then satisfied by discussion was very valid. To be honest, I'm not all that sure how the decision was arrived at based on the discussion that they had. If you go again some time in the future, count on my support — we need more crats, especially ones who are enthusiastic about it... —Alex.Muller 18:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A pity. The close was alright but the sentiment of the debate wasn't so good. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was sorry to hear your RfB failed. I hope you'll come back later and become a bureaucrat. Cheers! - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 17:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me too . Please do come back again. I was closing watching the election and never thought it would fail inspite of such huge support :( . Best of luck for the future :D -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 17:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to hear about it too. Good luck next time! :) Sceptre (talk) 17:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I supported your RFB and I would support again in the future. Since you offered to help, please read the discussion immediately above your recent comment on my talk page, especially the last paragraph, and tell me what you think. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 18:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah well, so near and yet so far. I'm sorry it didn't work out this time, Avi, and I hope you'll try again when you feel the time is right. In the meantime, you might wish to consider some easy alternatives. Regards, Jakew (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
LOL!! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 20:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As I see you are starting the daunting task of sending around little RfB thank you spams, I thought I would save you the trouble of stopping by my talk page. While I can understand that it is disappointing to come so close only to hear that you did not make it, but I trust that you will improve in areas that have been discussed in the oppose section and will come back in four months or so stronger than ever saying "I told you so!". Cheers, Tiptoety talk 18:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dude. Not cool! So sorry to hear it didn't pass. However, it's no big deal. Think of it as not getting that promotion at work that will move you one more floor up (with no elevator) and add an extra five hours to your work week with no extra pay. You should actually be celebrating no extra work for even less thanks. Srs. Everything looks better through my rose-colored shades. :) Lara❤Love 19:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with everyone above =P Nice "translation" of my username! weburiedoursecretsinthegarden 19:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RfBs are among the most frustrating things a user may experience on Wikipedia, but please don't be frustrated. Focus on all the support/compliments you've received, as well as on valued advices the opposition may have provided, and keep up your outstanding work. And please try again, and again, and again. :-) Best regards, Húsönd 19:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'm somewhat disappointed by the closing, but if you do not oppose it, then I will not oppose it. Just remember to take all constructive criticism and supports and compliments to heart. I feel it is inevitable that you will be a crat, just keep trying. bibliomaniac15 20:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support Requests for bureaucratship are, at their heart, a project-wide referendum on the judgment of the candidate, and whether or not that judgment would be properly used, in accordance with wikipedia policy and guideline, to determine consensus in requests for administratorship, flagging bots, and changing usernames. To serve as a bureaucrat requires a demonstrated understanding of policies and guidelines, especially vis-a-vis sysops, current familiarity with the RfA process, and a demonstrated understanding of consensus. A bureaucrat must be open, willing to discuss difficult issues, and willing to admit to errors in the rare event they occur. Lastly, a bureaucrat must be cordial and civil, as failed RfA's hurt, whether or not adminship is a "big deal". In my opinion, Rudget Avraham fills all of these requirements. I have collaborated with him on a successful RfA, and hopefully another one in the wings, and I can assert he is cognizant, current, and competent when it comes to understanding the RfA process. He is always polite and friendly. My response to this is that as the primary function of a bureaucrat is to determine consensus on requests for administratorship, his experience and input at this venue, both prior to and after his RfA indicates that he can judge community consensus properly and understands the process. Good Luck!
    Well ja. Rudget (Help?) 20:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support. What can I say? Noting the opposition last time I said to participate more in RfAs, which you did, and looking good at it imho. Looking at the main points of the opposition now, I'd have to speak rubbish: participate less in RfAs and wait considerably longer (half a year?) so as to avoid the impression of neediness for the tools. But it's rubbish, because I'd have to follow it up with the suggestion to carefully avoid giving the impression to be carefully avoiding giving the impression of neediness; etcpp. So all I say is good luck next time, should you try again, that is. dorftrottel (talk) 20:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support It was borderline, but I thought you'd pass. I was really disappointed when I saw your message that you didn't. Third time's the charm, I suppose. Enigma message 21:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Avi, see my response to your comments here here. Best regards, gidonb (talk) 21:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(cheers for using my real name in your message :p) Hello Avi. My condolences for not passing your RfB, but I'm sure you'll pass if you try a third time in the coming future and you would make an excellent 'crat. Cheers, Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 22:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck post-RfB, Avi! I think you will be a great future bureaucrat (no doubt about it!). You really know my (and many others') concern about gettins some experience with the various username-related activities of bureaucrats, so I wish you the best on that. One suggestion I might have, not that it may make a lot of sense, is not to try too hard? Which seems sort of contradictory, because in order to get the Username experience, you have to make a point to work on it. So, perhaps that's not really useful advice. Oh well! :) Seriously, though, I'm looking forward to supporting whenever you come back up for it. -- Natalya 11:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, sorry to hear you didn't get the 'crat bit. That was a damn close run thing though, I really thought you were going to make it. Anyway I hope you continue to be involved at RfA, your comments are always thoughtful and interesting. the wub "?!" 12:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe it. I still don't see what the reason is - the debate seemed to say that several of the "opposes" were questionable. Sigh... I guess I'll never understand the expectations for admin or bureacrat. Do try again! Love teh latin name - should have thought of that myself! Thanks! King Pickle (talk) 01:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi

Thanks for your message. I found your RfB difficult and I very nearly switched to support. My stated reason was the prime motivation and, as you could tell, I struggled with it. I think it'd be fairly easy to deal with that and return in a few months. Heck, I'd be happy to nominate you - I have a 100% record with RfB noms. I think you've impressed plenty of people with the way you've handled yourself during the stress of the process, even, I would suggest, opposers. Cheers, --Dweller (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ain't no thang

Come to think of it, we disagree on everything! What the heck was I thinking?! Hah, hah, but really, I know we've tangled, but I feel like I've seen you grow as a wikipedian, and I guess hope somehow that my attitude has rubbed off on you a little. I stumbled in there accidently from Eleland's talk page, and read everything, and knew I had to say something, and in my gut just felt you were up to the task. Perhaps it was what we call in poker a "crying call" but even still I believe it was the right one. Too bad I'll not get to find out, since you didn't pass thru this time -- I'm sorry my vote couldn't put you over the top. -- Kendrick7talk 03:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your note Avi. Sorry you didn't pass. You should rest assured knowing that many people like me feel pleased (and well served) by your diligent work in Wikipedia and I'm sure you'll find many other opportunities for your leadership. HG | Talk 04:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RE:Your message

Hey Avi, thanks for your message. I too was disappointed to see your opposition, as I feel you would make a great 'crat. And don't worry about the name mix-up, it made me chuckle :) Good luck with your endeavors in the future, if you ever need anything, feel free to drop by. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 06:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RfB fail = teh suck

Make kitteh sad... kitteh not even sure anymoar wot pplz look 4 in bearcatz?! Totalee lame! Hope fyoochur RfB iz not fail again, WP miss out. ~ Riana ⁂ 16:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your RfB

Sorry, Avraham, no T-shirts this time. Here's a Barnstar instead. :) Acalamari 20:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Socratic Barnstar
For your great answers and communication with other users throughout the RfB. Acalamari 20:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your RfB

I just became aware of your (regrettably unsuccessful) recent try at RfB. Had I known about it I would have wholeheartedly supported you. I recently put one of those automatic who's-going-for-RfA-and-RfB thingies on my talk page, so if you give it another shot I'll notice more readily and be able to put in my two cents. In a way it's a shame that we have such strict rules about canvassing because it would be better if more people knew about these things. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RFB

Hello, Avraham. You have new messages at Balloonman's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

RFA Thanks

Thanks for your support at my recent Request for adminship. I hope you find I live up to your expectations. Incidentally, I didn’t !vote in your recent RfB because every time I vote for someone there they seem not to be successful, and I didn’t want to be a jinx and affect the outcome. (I know, silly to be superstitious about these things, but…) If it helps, you were in my thoughts throughout the process. Best, Risker (talk) 16:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Moses

Thanks. I was thinking about doing that but didn't get around to it. At least there was an edit summary, you usually get a drive-by IP hitting several articles in one go. Doug Weller (talk) 06:24, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ping

If you get a free moment, can you pop onto IRC for a quick chat? - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a reason I don't have email enabled

There is a reason I don't have email enabled: I'd rather keep my true identity secret for a number of reasons, especially after what happened to User:Newyorkbrad. Also, I prefer to keep conversations in the open on Wikipedia; this way, when I revert trolls and vandals and the like, they have to post their unpleasant comments to me in the open, which makes it easier for me to point them out to admins for subsequent blocking. --Coolcaesar (talk) 06:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IRC

Not. :) —Kurykh 19:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can we talk?

Is there a way for me to send you a private e-mail? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.53.177 (talk) 03:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Click here. -- Avi (talk) 14:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I sent you an e-mail but you didn't respond. Jewz4cheeses (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very busy time at work for me, if you notice the top of my talk and user page, I do mention that I am on a semi-wikibreak. I'll try and respond soon. Sorry. -- Avi (talk) 02:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RfA Thanks

Thank you for participating in my RfA, wich was successful with 73 support, 6 oppose, and 5 neutral.

I'll try to be as clear as I can in my communication and to clear some of the admin backlog on images.

If there is anything I can help you with, don't hesitate to ask me on my talk page!

Cheers, --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

al-Husayni

I've left off editing Wiki because I find far too much time is wasted in exhausting non-issues that serious neutral editors would never squabble over, on whatever side they might be. But I keep an eye on pages. I noted your reversal of the prior editor's 'few' (actually 'a few' would have been more correct), to 'no Palestinians' supported Zionism. You are quite right to query this and ask for sources, but the previous editor was correct. There is an excellent source for precisely this issue of Palestinian support for Zionism, namely Hillel Cohen's Tseva ha-tselalim, now available as Hillel Cohen, Army of Shadows: Palestinian Collaboration with Zionism, 1917-1948, trans.Haim Watzman, University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles 2008. In chapter 3 (pp.66ff) the author provides a classification of 4 types of Palestinian collaboration. 'Collaboration' of course is not 'support' but Cohen does, in categories 3 and 4 designate ideological supporters and supporters motivated by humanitarian sympathies for Jewish neighbours, which therefore fits perfectly with what you request. I appreciate your keeping an eye on that page, which I worked hard on until I threw in the towel out of general exasperation, and hope you can edit in this source on the point under consideration. Regards Nishidani (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dating Schema

"Per the wikipedia manual of style, please do not change existing dating schema, especially to one with specific religious overtones in an article not exclusive to that religion."
I do not understand exactly what you mean regarding religious overtones. Changing words and phrases like "nowadays" and "in olden times" to something less fairy tale sounding I think would help this article. Are these words specifically associated with the religious history of the Western Wall and the Jewish people in a way that I am unaware. I have learned by reading through the style manual that using non-specific words like "currently" or "recently" is generall frowned upon in lieu of specific dates with references, but I am very confused about the religious point. Could you (or someone) perhaps point to the section of the style manual that goes over this. I am not arguing for the sake of arguement, but would like to learn so that I can help out! Thanks,Eskimo79 (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RfB Thank You spam

Thank you for participating in my RfB! I am very grateful for the confidence of the community shown at my RfB, which passed by a count of 154/7/2 (95.65%). I have read every word of the RfB and taken it all to heart. I truly appreciate everyone's input: supports, opposes, neutrals, and comments. Of course, I plan to conduct my cratship in service of the community. If you have any advice, questions, concerns, or need help, please let me know. Again, Thanks! — Rlevse • Talk • 08:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Elc International school

You prodded Elc International school. Schools which offer high school grades are generally considered notable. On that basis, you might want to remove the prod. --Eastmain (talk) 22:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Ronald Ribman

I proposed the article for a DYK. Hope you don't mind :-) --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this sentence needs some splaining: "For high school, Ribman graduated from Mark Twain Jr. High School in 1947 and from Abraham Lincoln H.S. in 1950". He graduated from two different high schools?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:07, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Metzitzah

Perhaps you should ask me why I made changes before reverting them? You don't understand why I added another halachic reference to the first three references that are also my contributions(If you go far back enough in the history.) Tell me, did you bother reading any of the source material cited? The three articles in question by anti ultra orthodox doctors "suggest" a link, nothing more. "several lines of circumstantial evidence" -Rubin 2000; "...raised suspicions that it was related to the circumcision performed a few days earlier. This assumption was supported by several factors:" -Distel 2003; "may" be hazardous to the neonate / "most probably" as a consequence of / "it is likely" that other infants were infected/"We suspect", therefore / "it was most likely" that the infection was transmitted /represents a "potential source" of orogenital transmission / however, "the possibility" that some previous cases were not reported /this "potentially" life-threatening medical complication / oral metzitzah "may" cause oral-genital transmission/oral suction "may" not only endanger the child /which "might" endanger the newborns/ -Gesundheit 2004 That's bad enough, but if you understand neonatal herpes (I do, you can look at my edits for herpes) every avenue of testing that would have proven OR DISPROVEN a link to the mohel was meticulously avoided. There is also the common link between the three papers (the authors all know each other) that none of the papers discuss what the prognosis of normal maternally transmitted neonatal herpes is, because they all describe textbook cases of maternally transmitted neonatal herpes. Read up on pubmed on the last 40 years of research by Nahmias, Josey, Roizman, Kimberlin, Yeager, Whitley, Arvin, Zane Brown, Liz Brown, Ashley, Mertz, Stanberry, Wald, and Prober, then you'll understand why these 22 doctors that have never done a paper on neonatal herpes, don't know what they're talking about. But it's even worse than that, in their zeal to attack the ultra orthodox they cite references, than write the exact opposite of what the references say. or cite a reference that has nothing to do with the topic. That is not an accident, this was a deliberate broadside against the ultra orthodox based on lies. The Gesundheit paper was rejected TWICE by JAMA because it's garbage. The authors, in violation of editorial policy stacked the authorship with six more doctors in an effort to get it published. Who says so? Co-author Doctor Moshe Dovid Tendler. [Here are six pages of Tendler's lies in his own words http://dhengah.org/mbp/tendlervstendler.htm]

According to the article The Chasam Sofer, who died in 1839, being sufficiently influenced by Ignacz Semmelweis' 1847 discovery of disease transmission (in an obstetrics ward, not because a baby got tuberculosis from a mohel as they write)permitted the use of instrumental suction, even though the instrument, the tube, did not exist until 1887. If you would like to discuss where and how they lied, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. Read the three papers first, read the pediatric redbook online, and tell me what factor in these eleven cases goes anywhere outside of the textbook cases of maternally translitted herpes. None. The five factors that cite to blame the mohel are everybody else's textbook maternally transmitted herpes. I printed facts. Nothing more. This isn't POV it's fact. pikipiki (talk) 14:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see additional comments on my talk page on this topic.pikipiki (talk) 15:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DYK

Updated DYK query On 4 August, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Ronald Ribman, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Gatoclass (talk) 15:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note

I've no problem with that, Avi, and thank you for the note. The only reason I intervened, (against a very strong desire not to return to wiki) was that, while wholly understanding Ryan's frustration, I could see absolutely no evidence on the ANI page for the serious proposal being vetted. I've have myself often remonstrated with PR, not least recently. But PR's attitude is no more problematical than that of many other editors who hang about, unchallenged (on principle, I never made complaints to admin because I preferred to simply try and sort out the problems on talk pages, irrespective of the rules). If you do indeed have strong evidence for Ryan's proposal by all means go ahead. I'm sure G-Dett will pitch in. My defense was not a personal thing with PR, but a matter of instincts. I have something in my bones that gets combative whenever I happen to observe anyone, anywhere, cornered, irrespective of like or dislikes. And, as I say, far too many editors with a record (not on ANI) for atrocious editing still manage to breezily do damage and waste serious editors' time, by slinging words around like 'antisemite' without any administrative action. It was in protest at this, on a specific page, that I decided to pull my own plug. I trust you will use your experience, along the lines you suggested to me in your last note on the ANI page to me, to assist others higher up in making I/P articles more comfortable for serious editors. That will not eliminate strong difficulties, but a huge amount of futile bartering might be avoided. Regards Nishidani (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sensible. I myself have suggested to PR that a break may be due. Some time back, I place a I month sanction on myself (it may have looked theatrical, but I was serious) for violating WP:CIVIL, since something had to be said to break an impasse, but to say it would be improper within the rules. I broke the rules and saved arbitration the trouble. In mentioning the other problemm I did not, adonai forbid, think of bartering. I was disappointed that, in being accused of antisemitism by someone I regard as a chronically bad poster who once rigged (and I didn't complain) a tagteam trap against me which earned me a badge of demerit, and who seems to enter and exist when he's done a job on someone, nothing was said administratively. But that's water under the bridge.
I think PR should indeed be asked to take a break. Mind you, I am in considerable sympathy with Ryan on this, but I disliked the way both GHcool and Jayjg went about their 'support' motions. Editors of their experience should never try to fudge serious issues with brittle bits and pieces. Whatever, I would (perhaps you could sound G-Dett out on this) suggest a fairly neutral request ('While on the evidence here so far, nothing substantive to warrant a community ban has been forthcoming, it is nonetheless true that Ryan, your mentor, has expressed some fatigue in the task of monitoring your contributions to Wikipedia. While you, PR, have said here and in the past that your various mentors have been harassed for taking on this task, now four administrators have, for various reasons, thrown in the towel. This alone should be grounds for serious self-reflection, and, we the undersigned suggest, a period of self-imposed abstention from editing this encyclopedia, certainly on I/P articles. We are not calling for a community ban, or any sanction by peers. We are asking you to make a gesture, by withdrawing to reflect for some months on the purposes of this encyclopedia and the role you desire to play in collaborating on the construction of its articles. You may decline without further sanction. But the undersigned would certainly view your compliance with this suggestion as a mark in the record book of both your bona fides and respect for the community.

Nishidani...

? G-Dett may be appalled. I dunno. Pass it by her (?), if you think (alter it as you will if you think there is merit to it) it worth mulling. If we have some agreement on this sort of (creative proposal), then some version could be posted 8for editing or assent) on the page. I hope it works. I really must hold to my desire to withdraw from this beautiful, and yet troubling experiment that is wikipedia. Regards Nishidani (talk) 16:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I just caught PR's final remark, and went ahead to make a preliminary point to what I suggested. Nishidani (talk) 17:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should all be forthright and speak frankly, which you have done. I don't think what you say is extreme. There is however one technical matter that you do not address. The evidence given, on which many commented, was virtually zero-grade. True, in your experience, PR has been defended and yet has not learnt to sidestep the kind of alacrity for controversy on talk pages especially, which has lead to sanctions. The paradox is rather patent. Technically (I suppose a much fuller case might discover evidence of recent questionable material), as constituted, this suit should not have been pressed by Jayjg and (I presume from fatigue) Ryan. For, having been sanctioned and having paid the penalty, PR returned, and one expected any further sanctions to reflect PR's behaviour as evinced by edits in the interim, yet nothing was forthcoming. At precisely the point where it seemed nothing was forthcoming, PR stepped up to the batter's block and, to mix metaphors, made a self-goal. The content of that last remark therefore supplies the kind of evidence that was lacking originally. In the minor provinces of thought, it has all the colour of a soap-opera with a surprise reversal in the last (apparently) act. A critic would, however, say: had the suit never been made, had the long provocation on flimsy grounds been dismissed, as it deserved to be, then PR would not have perhaps made the remark that now affords grounds for the suspension originally broached on false pretenses. In law, this looks very bad indeed. Ryan has said little, and yet I think the gravamen of the evidence is not in the flaky diffs variously supplied: they are wholly innocuous. The gravamen lies in Ryan's fatigue with mentoring PR, which happens to be the fourth time round. As you say Jaakobou has improved under mentorship (he has had though mentors who have fought for him, and notoriously the valiant Durova never sleeps, whereas Ryan has exams to face), PR by contrast tends to persist in unproductive attitudinizing. I do not want scalp-taking. Tiamut, Eleland, myself and a few others, who whatever our faults, have worked towards the ideals of encyclopedicity, have found no option, as we variously perceive things, than to withdraw out of sheer frustration, in full awareness that this will be read by some as the establishment of a decent salient in enemy territory (I personally believe the user who engaged with me over the Lehi issue was doing that, provoking a scalp-taking gambit. But that is my purely speculative private reading). PR, precisely in this context, is dragged into ANI. Now, Avi, let's be frank. The timing may well be casual (I think it neither here nor there), but it looks extremely bad. Ryan, whom Dett I believe said received complaints from Jayjg on his talkpage, should have merely announced he felt he was not successful with his mentoring, and requested comment. Justice, the dictum runs, should not only be made, but seen to be made. Paricularly before a community and before even PR, one should avoid even the soupcon of impropriety. We have here a non-case, going towards dismissal, suddenly, by a (characteristic) outburst by the accused, turning up evidence not material to the original complaint, perhaps proviked by its unfairness, which looks however like it justifies Ryan's original complaint.
I still think PR should be requested to self-suspend, preferably for the period of 3 months, as PhilKnight, an admin for whom I have high regard, suggested. I believe also that a request to that effect should make it clear that the community is not asking for this on the strength of the edits provided, but as proof of bona fides. But others will no doubt comment: I have had two days of reading Tolstoy lost, and will see how things sort out as others comment. Probably G-Dett has more intelligent things to say than anything I might come up with. I will defer to G-Dett, since, basically, I am no longer editing I/P articles while they are. Regards Nishidani (talk) 18:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but an apology was due, from someone. While expressing a provisory willingness to consider PR's proposal I mentor, I am convinced, apart from my reluctance to return to wiki as an unproductive use of time which, at my age, is not abundant, that it is not a good idea. I have never read the wiki rulebook, gaze on with a codger's befuddled astonishment at the extraordinary genius and formal technical brio of disputes like that between ChrisO and Elonka which reminds me I was raised in a different world, and cannot participate actively in it because I will never adjust to that kind of refinement. If it were a matter of my judging a debate over the construal of Heidegger's Sein und Zeit, or the more obscure debates in scholarship over Plato's Theaitetos, I mightn't feel out of my native waters, but here I am, since there is a stratospheric complexity of formalism, and I was raised on substance (well, actually, my forebears, as Irishmen used to tell us we were like mushrooms, nurtured on bullshit and raised in darkness!), assuming a role, that of mentorship, which requires an insider's youthful knowledge of rules, esp.for an anarchical codger like myself, would probably spell doom for our PR. What I could do, is just something like look at a page a day, at most two, where (s)he wishes to edit, and make a few suggestions for what (s)he proposes. But properly speaking, I think a spell of reflection for a few months is what is needed,then an act of trust in someone on your side, preferably yourself, and someone on PR's side who is young, active and knowledgeable, if not engaged, on I/P, and then parsimonious editing. Parsimonious because this is a testing ground for change and mentoring must be burdensome, and its weight on mentors appreciated. If this works, for a few months, let PR go forth, on one last proviso. PR's record as discussed shows a problem. We have focused on it. That PR is now seen as easy game, even by editors with enough experience to know one could simply hold back and ignore the temptation to be contrary over trivia, is not wholly untrue. It should be understood somewhere, that barratry is no longer on the cards, and that while PR is held to the rules, niggling at PR over minutia, as opposed to serious issues, will not be viewed favourably. That sort of thing can be done discretely with emails. Well, I hope PR does take a break. I too must stick to promises and retire, but not before thanking you for the contextual intelligence, effort and generosity of spirit you have shown here. Best regards Nishidani (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Avi. Thanks for commenting on my WP:AN suggestion about PR. But I wasn't quite sure what you meant. You said, "That is part of the basis...." To what does that refer? It sounds like you're opposed to my suggestion, but it's not quite clear why. Thanks very much. Take care, HG | Talk 18:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Avi, no problem, I respect your opinion(s). HG | Talk 09:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of elc International school

As you proposed deletion of the article, I support the motion as it after all, does not seem to be a very notable school. Could you please delete it asap, as actually people from the school have contacted me about this and requested that the page be deleted, otherwise face nasty consequences. Thanks.--Hanaichi 10:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for protection

Hey Avi, there's some repeat IP vandalism going on at circumcision. Could you please take a look to see if the page needs protection? Thanks, AlphaEta 17:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clean-up here. -- Fyslee / talk 06:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your advice to ShevaShalosh

I thought your comments were absolutely delightful: gentle, charming, cogent, and yet incisive and to the point.

I haven't seen you around a lot. Hope to see more of you. --Ravpapa (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question

am I edit chatting right - this is daniel from the baruch goldstein page. I'm sorry about the edit warring stuff. don't really know the rules but i am willing to learn. how can i discuss this problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.176.100.233 (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another sockpuppet of Signsolid

Hello. I think User:Verseruns, who registered today, is another sockpuppet of User:Signsolid. I was reading the Historical Powers article where Verseruns has done the very same edit as User:Offerpoint whom you blocked indefinitely today and tagged as a sockpuppet of Signsolid. Also, Verseruns has edited the Royal Air Force article, which is an article that Signsolid has edited a lot in the past. So most likely Verseruns is another sockpuppet of Signsolid. Could you tell me where I can report this? I'm not sure where to report it. Thank you. Keizuko (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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