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Rivalry naming convention

After comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/All Blacks versus France at rugby union it's become neccessary to discuss the naming of articles about rivalries between national teams in rugby. Please let me know what you think of the following proposals (support or object) and add comments, suggestions etc. The only thing I think we should do is keep the names consistent with their national team articles (for example the country, with the exception of the All Blacks). Anyway, here are some examples of articles that currently exist:

• All Blacks versus France at rugby union
• All Blacks vs Springboks
• Ireland vs South Africa at rugby union
• South Africa vs Wales in rugby union

Also, maybe:

• All Blacks versus France in rugby union
• History of All Blacks versus France rugby union matches (I don't like this one, seems awfully long)
• History of rugby union matches between All Blacks and France

Anyway lets try and reach a consensus. My only advice is the simpler the better, and something that's universal, not going to restrict the content of the article too much. - Shudde ^talk 10:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

My preference is for the Ireland vs South Africa at rugby union format. "History of ..." isn't necessary, "at rugby union" is (to distinguish it from tiddleywinks, sysnchronised underwater ballroom dancing, or whatever). I don't like "versus" spelt out -- it looks odd and detracts from the title's impact (and "A v B" or "A vs B seem to be more commonly used for sporting events). One minor point: to maintain NPOV, the teams probably ought to be listed alphabetically, as (by chance?) they are in all the listed examples. - Jimmy Pitt (talk) 18:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd prefer some indication that the article describes the entire history of the pairing. After all that's what it's doing so I'm all for History of rugby union matches between All Blacks and France. But then I'm not an egg-chaser any more...!! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure New Zealand vs France isn't a traditional rivalry in international rugby anyway. The major rivalries I'm aware of involve England against pretty much everyone else, Wales against England and South Africa, Scotland against France and Ireland, France against Italy and the SANZAR nations against each other. New Zealand vs France just doesn't seem like a big one to me. – PeeJay 18:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

101 years isn't tradition enough for you? It's at least as traditional as Wales v SA, who've only met 20 times -- as against 46 for the ABs and Bleus -- and more traditional than France v Italy, who didn't meet one another for the first time until 1937. And after Twickenham in 1999 and Cardiff in 2007 it's most certainly a rivalry, traditional or not. But in any case "traditional" hadn't been mentioned until you did. The AB v France article exists and the issue isn't whether it meets the definition of "traditional", but how it and similar articles should be named. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 19:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I know this sounds like WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS but if you look at Wikiproject Cricket, they've got articles for all cricket nation tours to all other cricket nations. Hundreds of articles full of (useful?) information. There aren't many rugby union test nations that date back over 100 years so I think this article is notable enough. And, per Mr Pitt there above me, it's more a discussion over nomenclature, not notability... (and that should be the name of a song...) The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The rivalry is notable, they have been playing together since 1906, and there have been many matches which are still talked about a lot in NZ rugby circles today (Nantes 1986, Auckland 1987, Twickenham 1999, and the other one....). These articles are between tier one rugby teams, if it was between All Blacks and Italy, maybe that would not be notable. There has been a deletion debate on a similar article though Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/South Africa vs Wales at rugby union. As for Jimmy's comment on order, I think alphabetical is definitely the way to go. - Shudde ^talk 23:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

So far

At the moment we have:

• All Blacks vs France at rugby union

Support from Jimmy Pitt

Support from PeemJim86

• History of rugby union matches between All Blacks and France

Support from The Rambling Man

• France vs New Zealand at rugby union

Support – PeeJay 23:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• History of rugby union matches between France and New Zealand (added to options after the discussions which follow.

1. Support - Bob (talk) - implicit as he suggested it.
2. Support from The Rambling Man - as indicated below
3. Support from dramatic (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
4. Support - removes any doubt of home and away issues and is more formal that the All Blacks. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 08:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Could everyone else please vote! I don't think anyone is going to cry either way, but some sort of agreement so we can move on would be great. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 06:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think it should be History of rugby union matches between France and New Zealand. Using the name of the countries in alphabetical order. I don't like the use of the term All Blacks here or in any other title. When New Zealand play in the RWC, they are referred to as New Zealand. Programs and news outlets list them as such. Sure, I know where you are coming from in the naming conventions, but do we list the Brazilian football team as Seleção or the Italian as Azzurri. Imagine an article with the title History of football matches between the Azzurri and the Seleção, or in rugby context, History of rugby union matches between the Eagles and the Pumas or History of rugby union matches between the Sprinboks and the Wallabies. The average user wouldn't have a clue what either were referring to, do animals play rugby union? Silly, yes. But not everyone follows rugby union, and using the actual countries names could be helpful. Plus, doing it this way, non-test matches could also be included if they have occurred. --Bob (talk) 18:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah the All Blacks name is another issue. The only reason it's named All Blacks and not New Zealand national.... is because they are more commonly known as the All Blacks. It's probably a debate for another time though. - Shudde ^talk 22:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy with History of rugby union matches between France and New Zealand as above. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

We clearly have no consensus here. The big discussion is whether "History of rugby union matches between" or "A vs B at rugby union" is better and we have a split of probably 2 votes to 3, does anyone else want to vote? - Shudde ^talk 00:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Bit late to this (has this been settled?...) I realise but my preference is very much for All Blacks vs France at rugby union, listing the first team alphabetically. The 'History of...' is far too long IMO and that one gets all that's needed across. I've added my support above. PeemJim86 (talk) 00:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

All Blacks vs New Zealand national rugby union team

I know I've raised this before, but since the issue was raised just above, I thought I'd resurrect it. Anyway, I'm still unable to see why the article about the New Zealand national rugby union team is located at All Blacks. Obviously I am well aware that the team is commonly referred to as the All Blacks, but why should the New Zealand national rugby union team get special treatment over the Springboks, the Wallabies, the Azzurri or the Soca Warriors? There isn't even any evidence that the New Zealand national rugby union team is referred to as "the All Blacks" more often than they are referred to as just "New Zealand". Opinions? – PeeJay 23:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Previous discussion for those who want to get up to speed: Talk:All Blacks/Archive 1#Naming of this article. --Stormie (talk) 00:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

They are referred to as the All Blacks more often then New Zealand. I'd oppose changing the name. It's not special treatment, I would have no problem with South Africa being referred to as the Springboks, and the Australians the Wallabies. Those are the other two that are very commonly known by their nickname (all three southern hemisphere touring teams from the early 20th century picked up nicknames). The only problem with their names is that Wallabies redirects to Wallaby (the marsupial) and Springboks (which redirects to South Africa national rugby union team, but could prob change) is named after the antelope. The thing with All Blacks is that they aren't named after something else, so you don't get the disambiguation problem. Like I said I would have no prob changing to Wallabies and Springboks, but you may find this doesn't work because of what I said above. - Shudde ^talk 09:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

But this is against naming conventions. Not everyone would know who the All Blacks are, and the standard used by every other national sports team on Wikipedia is "[Country name] national [sport] team". Basically, "All Blacks" could be used to refer to any other group who dress in all-black. IIRC, isn't the New Zealand national football team nicknamed the All Whites? By your reasoning, that article should be located at All Whites, but it isn't. I'm not saying that the New Zealand national rugby union team is receiving preferential treatment, as I don't see what advantage can be gained from having the article at All Blacks. What I am saying is that, for some reason, New Zealand seems to want to set themselves apart from the rest of the rugby world, and, since Wikipedia is supposed to be NPOV, this should not be tolerated. – PeeJay 10:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Read the archived discussion above. The team is most commonly known as All Blacks. This is especially true in New Zealand and the southern hemisphere. No one here says New Zealand is playing on the weekend when the All Blacks are playing, they say the All Blacks are playing. All Blacks is written on their shirt, it's the only writing they have on there (below the silver fern) and it's copyrighted. Even the website is allblacks.com. Anyway read the discussion above. If there are heaps of people here that agree with you then we will take it up on the All Blacks talk page. Also this isn't NPOV, how is the name pushing a non-neutral point of view? - Shudde ^talk 10:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I am well aware that pretty much everyone in New Zealand would refer to the team as the "All Blacks", but that's to be expected, just like most Italians would refer to the Italy national football team as the "Azzurri". Just because a name is common in its own country does not mean it is common worldwide. – PeeJay 10:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It should be moved to fit the "[Country name] national [sport] team", All Blacks would redirect to it. And as PeeJay said "Just because a name is common in its own country does not mean it is common worldwide." Chandlertalk 12:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, from what I stated above, I agree with the sentiment that PeeJay has expressed above, and that goes for the Black Ferns as well. The IRB does not recognise All Blacks as an official name for rankings, it lists New Zealand under the name of the country.--Bob (talk) 16:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to express my distaste for Black Ferns as an article title too, per my reasoning above. – PeeJay 17:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The name is very common worldwide. The only people that seem to strongly disagree with this are from the UK. What's up with that? Comparisons to other names are not very useful, because this is an exceptional case, where the team is widely, and commonly known by the name All Blacks as opposed to New Zealand. The Black Ferns has nothing to do with this. Also, why can people not vote in the section above! That's much more urgent at the moment. - Shudde ^talk 22:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that introducing the personal note about people "from the UK" helps your argument one bit. This isn't about national allegiances, it's about having a common and NPOV approach to all teams and not treating one differently. You describe it as "an exceptional case" but what others are asking is, why? Why should it be exceptional? It's no more exceptional than "Bokke" or the Springboks. The article for every other national rugby team uses the country name; why should New Zealand's national side be treated differently? It's very inconvenient that New Zealand should be the only country for which the {{nrut}} and similar templates can't be used. What exactly is the objection to naming the article according to the "standard" naming convention, with a redirect from "All Blacks"? - Jimmy Pitt (talk) 22:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Here, in the US, the team is referred to as New Zealand. I live in California, and I rarely see them mentioned as the All Blacks in the US paper press or TV (I suppose because rugby is such a small sport over here?). In France, they are referred to as Nouvelle-Zélande or Les Blacks or Les All Blacks, the word All is often omitted... But they also refer to France as le XV de France, and no-one is suggesting that we rename that article here or on the French wiki. France is also referred to commonly as Les Bleus and the Wallabies and Boks are widely, and commonly known by their nicknames, in English and in both French and Italian (the two other major languages of rugby). To infer that only New Zealand can claim this is preposterous! --Bob (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying New Zealand is the only team with a name, clearly this is not true. What I am saying is that the name All Blacks is more common then Springboks and Wallabies (those being the other two teams with very common names), but I'm not opposed to those teams having their article titles changed. I'm not saying this is about national allegiances Jimmy, but I think you'll find that in the southern hemisphere the name is much more common then New Zealand. - Shudde ^talk 23:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I feel you're looking at it from too narrow a viewpoint. "All Blacks" may be the commonest usage in NZ, but I'm not sure it's the commonest "nickname" -- in RSA (which I know well), people don't say "South Africa" is playing, they refer to the "Bokke" or Springboks ... and there are a heck of a lot more Saffers than Kiwis! But if somebody used that as a reason for changing the title of the SA article, I'd say they wrong too. My gripe isn't with one country or another, or with national allegiances, or with NH v SH, but with the mindset that says because a name is commonly used in one country (NZ, RSA, Outer Mongolia, I couldn't really care), that's the name that should be used in what is, after all, supposed to be a multinational encyclopedia. If Wikipedia is to be genuinely international, it ought to be possible to accommodate specific national usages within a common framework. We already have a policy of following IRB usages for the names of positions, even though many countries don't use "fly-half", for example. If we can all live with that, can't we follow the IRB when it comes to national team names? -- my programmes from RWC 2007 tell me that I was watching New Zealand (not the ABs) play Scotland and New Zealand (not the ABs) play France (well, the cover does, Syd Millar's intro doesn't!). Naming the article conventionally, with a redirect from "All Blacks" and a reference in the lead section to that as the common name, would (a) bring New Zealand into line with every other rugby-playing nation in Wikipedia, (b) allow the templates to be used universally, and (c) remove any suspicion that New Zealand rugby is being treated as a special case (which it seems to be at present, by virtue of being the sole exception to the common rule). Jimmy Pitt (talk) 02:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Adidas brand them as the 'All Blacks'. It is perhaps one of the most commonly known informal name and may well be the more commonly used form in many parts of the world. New Zealand in cricket are the Black Caps, in league they are the Kiwis, but always in the corner of the screen it will be NZ (usually winning) and not AB. I use each term as much as the other, normally with a sheep reference mixed in. For English language wikipedia representative teams are written on an infobox as France, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand, not les Bleus, the Springboks, the Wallabies and the All Blacks. I would plump for the officially title with a redirect for All Blacks, AB's, etc. However as the informal name is so commonly used, by players, commentators, pundits, fans and those who have little contact with the game it may well mean that the All Blacks is not informal and indeed a copyrighted brand name. If it's going to come to a vote I am going to abstain.Alexsanderson83 (talk) 03:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to offer some evidence for my claim that the All Blacks is not just another nickname. Two articles that I have found from a quick google search. I'll find more later, but my internet connection is limited at the moment. [1] and [2]. I'll only quote one sentence from them, but I would recommend everyone read the articles: "the All Blacks are the clincher. The brand is among the top five international sporting brands outside the United States - up there with European soccer giants Manchester United, Real Madrid and Inter Milan." - Shudde ^talk 05:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I accept all that Shudde, but it doesn't address the concerns some of us have and you're shifting the argument away from "it's commonly used in New Zealand" to "it's a major marketing brand" -- is it really our job to help put more money in Adidas's coffers? As an AB fan for several decades, I'm with you on the emotional level, but I'd be more than a little unhappy to think that the decision was being driven by advertising :) The redirect proposal (preferably from "All Blacks" to "New Zealand National Rugby Team", but the reverse would also work), seems to me to meet all possible objections, but insisting that the ABs must be referred to as "All Blacks" fuels the strong suspicion that New Zealanders are pushing their own POV. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 11:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact that they are most commonly known as the All Blacks in New Zealand is from personal observations. I've also found the same in Australia. The marketing research quoted above indicates that the All Blacks are recognised as such globally, and are even better known then teams such as the British and Irish Lions—which just adds further evidence to my argument that they are more commonly known as the All Blacks then as New Zealand, even outside New Zealand, and even outside traditional rugby countries. Another quote I found today when readying the news (just happened to come across this believe it or not) is "The only rugby team the Americans have heard of is the All Blacks. They couldn't tell you who won the World Cup or where the Springboks come from but they could tell you about the mythology of the All Blacks." That's a quote from USA Rugby boss Kevin Roberts, and can be found [3]. His quote has nothing to do with marketing, or Adidas. I certainly don't see this as a non-neutral POV issue though, their name doesn't push an agenda or opinion, we are just trying to decide what they are most commonly referred to as here, it's not like we are discussing whether to call them the Mighty All Blacks or the Awful All Blacks or something like that! - Shudde ^talk 03:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Articles broken up by year

I'm not sure what the convention is as the rugby union season in europe runs from winter to summer. When a player seems to play all year round, ie Saxons, Sevens, etc when should there be a break, where should it go. I'd imagine the protocol is to divide international and club rugby up, but as so far haven't found this. Just looking for a little clarification on articles that wouldn't have too much international writing. Other side is if it is all in one lot where do we break. ie Jonny Wilkinson has article in years, where do we say this is one paragraph and this is the next. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 07:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think in Europe the break is in July and August although I'm not completely sure. Club rugby and international rugby overlap sometimes, so it's quite complicated. I would imagine for a play like Wilkinson you would split his biography into seasons which go from September to May/June. I'm not 100% sure on all this though. - Shudde ^talk 04:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The season for a NH international player runs from the start of the domestic season to the end of the summer tours, Lions tours or Churchill Cup. In World Cup years, the "warm-up" matches come before the start of the domestic season, but logically belong with the coming season, not the one just finished. So, in 2007, England's tour to RSA in May/June would be included in the 2006-07 season, the warm-up games in August against Wales and France in the 2007-08 season. End of July would be a fairly reliable break point in most years, I think. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 00:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Five Nations

I'm shocked at the scant coverage of the Five Nations Championship. I created an infobox for it, and formatted existing championship articles as per recent Six Nations tournaments. Could we create articles for the Five Nations and Home Nations Championship, rather than having them footnotes of the Six Nations? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the point. It's basically the same tournament. National records e.g. number of titles, grand slams etc include Six Nations, Five nations and Home nations championships without differentiating between them.GordyB (talk) 22:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only don't you see the point, I think you're missing it :) What you say is true for the main article, but, judging from his navbox, what I think Gareth is bemoaning is the lack of historical coverage of individual year's championships, which is a different matter entirely: for fairly obvious reasons, there's an immense amount of info on the latest tournaments, not much at all on the years when it was the Five Nations. The only drawback I see with having individual articles for each year (apart from the effort required) is that most of them will probably never get beyond the stub stage, but that's a minor point. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 00:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Browsing the French wikipedia, I see they have articles for every year of the championship (back to the 1880s). Jimmy Pitt (talk) 02:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

And they are precise enough to name the years 1932-39 "Tournoi britannique de rugby à XV" instead of the more usual "Tournoi des cinq nations" ;-O --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I have created some articles on the individual seasons over the past six months, but am only up to 1893! - Shudde ^talk 22:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Shall we nominate my box and the six nations box for deletion and create a box in "the fashion of the French one? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 15:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say yes, but so many of the articles havn't been created yet. - Shudde ^talk 23:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Better to have one template than two though. – PeeJay 00:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Right...I'll make one soon, then we could delete the others? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 23:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed so. No need to have useless templates lying around. – PeeJay 23:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Here it be [4] Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't Italy be included? (Looks fine otherwise) Jimmy Pitt (talk) 01:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

New box (courtesy of User:Gareth E Kegg) Template:Six nations new and all articles created with consistent formatting. Nouse4aname (talk) 13:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess we can move Template:Six nations new to Template:Six Nations now. – PeeJay 14:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, though how will that affect templates already in place? I assume they will redirect, and we won't need to change them all manually? Perhaps I should have just over-written the original in the first place...!Nouse4aname (talk) 19:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there are no more articles that contain the old template, so it would be a simple case of moving {{Six nations new}} to {{Six nations}}. However, I would prefer it if we could capitalise both words and move it to {{Six Nations}}. – PeeJay 19:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. Can I leave it to you to sort out...I have a nasty habit of ballsing everything up when I try to move pages and just end up making a mess! Nouse4aname (talk) 08:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Rugby Union biography again

Hey guys. I made an edit today to remove the clubnumber parameter from the rugby union biography infobox. The reason I did this is because rugby union teams do not assign numbers to individual players, instead assigning them to positions, meaning that the player that fills a particular position gets the number that fits that position. I also moved the occupation, spouse, relatives and university parameters from the main part of the infobox to the Other information section at the bottom of the infobox, as that information is not essential in the same way that the player's date of birth, place of birth, full name, etc. are. However, my edit was reverted by User:Londo06 without any discussion. I would like to raise the matter here to see which version of the template is more correct. – PeeJay 16:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Assuming it works (I've not checked), your changes seem quite sensible. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 19:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The changes were flawlessly executed. However, if your name isn't Londo06, CorleoneSerpicoMontana or Alexsanderson83, apparently you're not allowed to make any changes to anything related to rugby on this website. – PeeJay 19:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I second that sentiment. --Bob (talk) 19:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, it seems we've established that Londo06 was in the wrong in this instance, so I have reverted his revert. If he reverts again, I shall report back. – PeeJay 19:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Give him a chance to put his POV.GordyB (talk) 22:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I asked User:Londo06 directly for the reason why he reverted my edits (my exact words were "Someone (in this case, me) makes a constructive edit, and you revert it straight back. Why?"). His response was "I don't believe so", implying that he didn't think my edit was constructive. All I wanted was a simple explanation, and I didn't even get that. – PeeJay 23:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and it also seems like User:CorleoneSerpicoMontana reverted the template for him. Yet more evidence that those two and User:Alexsanderson83 are working towards their own personal agenda. – PeeJay 23:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The time for putting a POV is when reverting the good faith edit. To revert without explanation is bad manners. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 23:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

One breech of Wikiquette doesn't justify another. As CorleoneSerpicoMontana points out fields in templates are optional. If you don't assign a number to Squad number then it doesn't appear on the page. I don't know of any union teams operating squad numbers but it's not entirely impossible that they do somewhere. As for consensus between CorleoneSerpicoMontana, Alexsanderson83 and Londo06, there is a lot of agreement between people posting here.

There is some agreement between some people. Don't speak for the rest of us please. The issue doesn't only concern squad numbers but a rearrangement of the personal data. And PeeJay breached no ettiquette: he explained here what he was doing, which is more than some others have done. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 23:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it best to give Londo6 a chance e.g. 48 hours to reply here and justify his position before we restart any edit wars.GordyB (talk) 23:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Reading through it seems numbers are optional. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 21:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no problems with what you did. - Shudde ^talk 22:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The change wasn't only the removal of the squad numbers. Whether that is included I don't care, personally I don't see them as neccessary, but moving the background/family information seems perfectly reasonable. So what is the problem people have here, with removing the squad number, moving the family info, or both? All this seems completely against the spirit in which edits are supposed to be made. Reverting something without stating a reason, unless clearly vandalism, seems to achieve nothing but pointless edit wars. - Shudde ^talk 23:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking through the Style guide states 'Editors prerogative to assign one or not when implementing the infobox.' I would further that and state I would have no problem with anyone who wished to remove a number from an individuals page. I personally think the information that was moved to the bottom of the infobox belongs up front.Londo06 14:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a number of issues with that statement. First, you added the phrase "Editors prerogative to assign one or not when implementing the infobox" after I tried to remove the parameter from the infobox. Second, if you "have no problem with anyone who wishes to remove the number from an individual's page", why did you revert my edit to remove the number from François Trinh-Duc's page? Third, I personally think that the information I moved to the bottom of the infobox belongs at the bottom of the infobox. That's why I moved it there. Other people have supported me in this very discussion. Thanks for playing. – PeeJay 15:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

That's why I wrote "I would further that and state I would have no problem with anyone who wished to remove a number from an individuals page.", time is linear and I am willing to move towards consensus rather than deadlock. I'm sure you can forgive a few indiscretions as I have forgiven yours PeeJay2K3.Londo06 16:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You know, I can't actually believe you're implying that I did something wrong. I made an edit, you reverted it, so I started a discussion here. What, pray tell, was the indiscretion of mine that you are referring to? – PeeJay 16:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Would anybody like to defend the encyclopaedic relevance of a player's sppouse/girlfriend, children, other relatives to their career? I would also propose that School and University is, in the vast majority of cases, irrelevant. Kevin McE (talk) 20:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say, certainly with reference to Australia that a player schooling is highly important as this is where they learn the game, where they play the top level rugby, pretty much 1st XV rugby is the same level as the level immediately below Super 14. Players relatives seem to be a field that is often filled as rugby is a game that is generational, with players often having brothers, cousins, uncles and fathers that play the game at the top level. I don't see the relevance of children being noted until they play the game themselves at the same level. Spouse would only be filled were she to be famous person. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 21:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The school or university is often very relevant. It was more so during the amateur era, but still is now. I would say all the family crap should be replaced with a notable relatives bit; that way only notable relatives need be mentioned in the infobox. - Shudde ^talk 22:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm tempted to say we should keep the school/uni bit, albeit only a weak temptation, but anything about family should be removed to the main body of text. Such information does not belong in an infobox. The infobox should be kept strictly to information on the player's vital statistics, such as height, weight, age, etc. and their career in the sport. – PeeJay 01:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that I line to the document page should be added, showing that only relatives of notability should be included, but I do think that it is a useful element of the infobox. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 01:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Why? What possible use does it serve? The same information would be better represented in the main body of text. I reiterate, the infobox should be for vital information only. – PeeJay 01:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with PeeJay here - there are too many rugby bios where there is nothing left to put in the prose section. Statements about relatives who played are far more readable as prose, and easier to reference. Can we not concentrate on the real fixes needed for this infobox, such as catering for non-test matches for country (which are far more important than club/provincial matches for pre-professional era players). dramatic (talk) 02:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that adding in a non-linked wife or daughter is probably not the way to go, maybe even going as far as to say it may be a field that could be removed. Relatives however is a field that should definitely stay, how many players out there have relatives who play the game or have played the game, it is certainly a very useful part of the infobox.Londo06 10:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

You're still not explaining why such information belongs in the infobox. The information doesn't have to be removed from the article altogether, just from the infobox. – PeeJay 10:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Occupations could go for me as well as spouses. Children and relatives come into play as I can rattle off hundreds of players who have relatives in the game. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed about occupations, and I'm sure you could name a lot of players with relatives in the game, but that's still not explaining why that information is necessary for the infobox. EXPLAIN, DAMN YOU! – PeeJay 22:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright, what's with the capitals. I feel this information would be necessary within the infobox as it serves one of the purposes of the infobox, which is to give brief details of the player, it gives a standard place for this information to be located, I personally find myself using it frequently to go to other pages. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 22:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

First, the capitals serve to express my mounting frustration, and were not directed at any one individual. Second, I believe you're contradicting yourself there. The infobox is indeed intended to give brief details of the player and his/her career. This should not include their relatives as their relatives have no bearing on that individual or their career. Put it in the prose. – PeeJay 15:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Category: Rugby

There is a discussion here on the proposed name change of the category.Londo06 11:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't understand your opposition to the renaming of the category. If I didn't have such faith in the goodness of man, I'd say you were being deliberately antagonistic. – PeeJay 11:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I said it certainly warrants discussion, and opened the debate up to other parties, that is not being antagonistic.Londo06 13:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Rugby Union template

reverted a change on the template after it removed information from the infobox that was previously shown. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 00:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Where? – PeeJay 00:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Australian Schoolboys

Added this article in its limited form, needs a major overhaul to bring it up to standard. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 09:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

First, I have renamed the article as "Australian Schoolboys" could mean anything. Second, why are you informing the rugby union project about a rugby league article? – PeeJay 09:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It is an international level at which youths of either code play. The reason for the title is that is the name of the team for either code when they play and that is the way it links through numerous player pages. Agree title could be worked on to include both codes with a redirect. Linked here because it certainly could do with a tune-up rugby wise. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 09:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah "Australian Schoolboys" is about as ambiguous a title as you can get, it may not even refer to sport, let alone rugby or league. I recommend that you fix all those redirects if possible. - Shudde ^talk 11:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Not really sure of a cover-all name. Welcome any and all suggestions. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 03:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

For rugby union, which is not the same as rugby league, the Australian Schoolboys article can be found at Australia national schoolboy rugby union team. For the article Australian Schoolboys, it should be converted to a disambig page, with the {{dab}} tag. It is so ambiguous it could refer to the Mathematics Olympiad as well as bowling, diving, sports, music or others were a national team for schoolboys exists. --Bob (talk) 05:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Australia Schoolboys teams seems seems a good coverall title. Not sure one sport deserves its own article, but I certainly open to discussion on the matter to add to the article or articles. As previously stated the original title was taken from the number of league and union players who linked out of the basic title. Australia national schoolboy teams also seems a worthy coverall title.Alexsanderson83 (talk) 07:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Added a link for the union team on its page. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 22:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Category:Rugby football

Category:Rugby has been changed to Category:Rugby football but I think that some further realignment of the "rugby" categories is still required.

A discussion regarding the future of this category has just started at Category talk:Rugby football. Those with an opinion please follow the link and contribute.GordyB (talk) 11:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Crusaders on main page

Crusaders (rugby) is scheduled to appear on the main page tomorrow. Would WikiProject Rugby union members please keep a close eye on the page for vandalism and try and prevent the page turning into a complete mess by the end of the day? I'm sure that won't happen but no harm in being vigilant. Cheers. - Shudde ^talk 02:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Brumbies

This is probably as good a spot as any to ask but the situation with the Brumbies article is rediculous. Presently typing in "Brumbies" brings up the page on the horse - without even a redirect to the team. The team is at Brumbies (rugby). In all honesty Brumbies should go straight to the team - a) If a person was looking up the horse they would type "Brumby" in the singular. b) The clear majority of people searching Brumbies on wikipedia would be looking for the team. In my opinion it is akin to typing in "Waratahs" coming up with the flower. Someone please fix this rediculous situation. Many thanks 210.50.99.253 (talk) 11:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The plural of a word whose singular has an article here should always redirect to the singular, rather than any other uses. As it stands, Brumby has a hatnote linking you to a dab page, and that should be enough. Waratahs was an erroneous redirect, IMO, and I have changed it to redirect to Waratah. – PeeJay 12:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Side with PeeJay, the redirect is correct, just adding Rugby to the end of most clubs, ie Brumbies, Bristol, Crusaders, etc. does the job fineLondo06 12:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

All Blacks at the Rugby World Cup peer review

I have requested a peer review of All Blacks at the Rugby World Cup. I'm pretty inexperienced at improving lists, so if people could contribute something to the review it would be greatly appreciated. You can add comments here. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 02:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Help request: GA backlog

Hello. There has been a large backlog at the Good Article Nominations page for a while. Since most of my editing is in the Sports and Recreation category, that is the area that I am currently focusing on. To try to cut down on the backlog, I'm approaching projects with the request that members from that project review two specific articles over the next week. My request to WikiProject Rugby union is to try to find time to review 1995 Japanese Grand Prix and No Way Out (2007). If these are already reviewed by someone else or you have time for another review (or you'd rather review something else altogether), it would be great if you could help out with another article. Of course, this is purely voluntary. If you could help, though, it would help out a lot and be greatly appreciated. The basic instructions for reviewing articles is found at WP:GAN and the criteria is found at WP:WIAGA. I recently began reviewing articles, and I've found it fairly enjoyable and I've learned a lot about how to write high quality articles. Best wishes, GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Are New Zealand Rugby clubs notable?

There is a notability guideline for players, but not for teams/clubs. It is my gut feeling that amateur clubs in New Zealand are not notable, given the number of levels of competition above them. Also, for most clubs, finding sufficient independent sources for a decent article would be impossible. Who agrees, disagrees? Are there factors which might make a club notable (e.g. winning a national clubs championship? Should/can we build this into the guideline, in which case how do we handle the terminology in different countries? - suggest that clubs which only play at a district level are below the threshhold. dramatic (talk) 07:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I would say that only clubs that compete in competitions that encompass the entire country would be notable. For example, a team that plays in a regional cup competition but a national league would be notable, as would a team that plays in a regional league but is eligible for a national cup competition. However, a team that plays in a regional league and also a regional cup would not be notable. – PeeJay 08:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, in NZ there is only the National club championship, played by the winners of the regional leagues. Which is problematic, since it makes a different club notable each year, unless we say that only the winners of the National competition are notable (IIRC, that winning team now goes on to an International tournament).dramatic (talk) 10:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As I see it, if you can source an article then by definition it is notable.GordyB (talk) 10:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, as you should know, notability is not temporary, so therefore any team that has ever played in the National Club Championship would be notable in my book. I must admit, I don't know much about the structure of club rugby in NZ, but if the club leagues are all regional, then perhaps clubs in the top division of each regional league should be regarded as notable. – PeeJay 13:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe this is a good line, for the simple reason, numerous small clubs have played major parts in the early history of rugby, particularly before professionalisation. I think if they go back sixty years or more, they are notable.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the article which sparked this question is Jaradites dramatic (talk) 18:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to say that article is quite poor. A lot of the content is just trivia, like the etymology of the club's name, how their 1st XV in 2006 contained five sets of brothers and how the club was started by Mormons. All of the rest of it is extremely recentist, with no detailed history from before 2006. In my opinion, that article should be submitted for AfD. – PeeJay 19:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I think a club is notable if an All Black has played for it. There is not really a national club competition, but before professionalism the club/provincial and international seasons didn't really overlap, so All Blacks all played club rugby as well. Obviously some clubs are more notable then others, but like Gordy said above, if it can be sourced then it's notable. - Shudde ^talk 03:54, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Gordy, if you can source it, it is notable. NPC clubs are fine to me, I guess we are talking about the ones below that level aren't we. GarethHolteDavies (talk) 14:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

We are indeed. New Zealanders would never refer to an NPC team as a "club" - they are a representative team selected from clubs within the region of one of the 26 (at last count IIRC) Rugby Unions.dramatic (talk) 22:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

A case in point (referring to my last reply) - I notice the building of Inverleith RFC is boarded up, and the club is probably closed, but the first rugby international ever took place in this area of Edinburgh. Many of Scotland's tiny clubs have a long history. There are newcomers such as Biggar who have prospered, but the wee ones are not unnotable in many cases.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, since notability is not temporary according to WP:NTEMP, you're absolutely right. As a member of both WP:RU and WP:FOOTY, I feel I should explain the system we have going over on the association football WikiProject. As things stand right now, any club that has ever played at a certain level of club football in their country is deemed to be notable. Of course, it would help to have access to information on the league system of rugby-playing countries in order to determine an appropriate cut-off point for each one, but I'm not sure where to find such info. – PeeJay 19:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The league system doesn't exist in New Zealand or Australia, and prob lots of other countries. Most provincial unions have their own club competition. So notability is much harder to determine. I think certainly if a club has played in the premier division of a club competition in New Zealand it's notable. There can be many possible inclusion criteria though. I think the general rule should be what GordyB said above, if you can find a third party source, then it's notable. - Shudde ^talk 02:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Shudde on this one. Is this pressure from outside to remove clubs from wikipedia? CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 07:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's more of a case of making sure that only notable clubs have articles. When you consider that there are notable clubs in Italy or Argentina that don't have articles, while barely notable New Zealand clubs are getting articles, it would seem to me that something is amiss. – PeeJay 08:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

You don't delete articles just because you think more notable ones havn't been created yet. That's insane. It's to be expected that the New Zealand articles are going to be more quickly written because unlike Italy and Argentina we speak English, and also it's the national sport here. There is no harm in less notable (but notable none the less) articles existing in wikipedia; the project doesn't have to worry about disk-space or anything like that. I would say the project has much more real and serious worries with BLP and copyright problems then anything else. - Shudde ^talk 09:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're probably right. However, can you say with absolute certainty that all of the New Zealand clubs that have articles are notable? Are they all referenced with sources that are independent of the subject? – PeeJay 09:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Nobody was saying that, and that has nothing to do with it. If you find any that need sources let me know, but of course I havn't read them all. But proposing deleting articles in the interest of some kind of regional balance doesn't make sense—because it's just not necessary. - Shudde ^talk 10:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Rugby World Cups squads

Does anybody have complete rosters for the various Rugby World Cups? I'd like to add the articles, but rosters for the first two/three WCs are quite unfoundable...Anyone? --necronudist (talk) 11:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that Wales' squad for each World Cup is listed on the WRU's website. – PeeJay 13:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I remember something like that, too... So now the problem is with all the other nations in all the other WCs :-) --necronudist (talk) 19:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yugoslavia

Yugoslavia national rugby union team has now been created... --MacRusgail (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed changes to rugby bio infobox

I've just made a hefty proposal at Template_talk:Infobox_Rugby_biography#Proposed_Changes_to_Template_for_International_Career. Comments welcome. dramatic (talk) 09:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Villiame Ofeghenahue

The article on Villiame Ofeghenahue has been moved to Willie O. My thoughts on the move are here but a wider view may be appropriate. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 01:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Redirected to the correct spelling, where an article already existed. Please revert if there was really a player called Villiame Ofeghenahue who played for Australia with that spelling who went on to coach Tonga recently. --Bob (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Cheers, Mattinbgn\^talk 22:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ireland national schoolboy rugby union team listed for deletion

Just thought i'd advise people that a rugby article has been sent up for deletion. Please add your two cents worth, whether that be in favour of the article or against it.Alexsanderson83 (talk) 20:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Blindside/Openside

Can someone start a stub on these terms ? Gnevin (talk) 13:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Do those terms really need their own articles? Why can't they just be defined in the Rugby union positions article? – PeeJay 13:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

List of rugby union terms.GordyB (talk) 13:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Reckon it is well enough covered by the two options listed above.Londo06 13:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Flanker (rugby union) covers them. - Shudde ^talk 14:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Googled and Wiki search for these found nothing .Have added a link in Flanker (rugby union) and Rugby union positions. Please remember not everyone knows these terms and a link can be very helpful Gnevin (talk) 15:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Establishment of Magners League teams

What should the line be on when these teams were founded? In particular Edinburgh Rugby, which I'm trying to improve between my Uni exam revision. The old Edinburgh district was founded in 1872, as noted by whoever created the article and a big hoopla is being made about it by the team itself in the run-up to Glasgow fixtures, and played Glasgow in the first inter-district match and has had players like Gavin Hastings play for them. However, I'm having a hard time finding any sources to verfiy anything that I could possibly say about this. Should I just revert this to 1996 (when the original Edinburgh Rugby was founded for the Heineken Cup) as per 1999 for Glasgow Warriors and Border Reivers and ignore the issue, with exception of a mention in the opening? There's certainly a precedent with The South being mentioned in the Border Reivers article rather than forming a part of the History section. What do folk reckon? PeemJim86 (talk) 00:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Squad templates

Just another thought, Template:Rugby squad player (not sure if I've linked correctly there) when you input IRE for an Irish player gives the ROI flag next to the player. If any Irish people have an input that would be good but I think it's only a matter of time before someone Irish gets annoyed about this. Is there anyway of changing so it produces --> ? I, in all honesty, have no idea how this might be done so someone will need to help me out. PeemJim86 (talk) 01:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You need to add an extra parameter to the template to get to appear instead of . Using Simon Easterby as an example, his {{Rugby squad player}} entry on the Scarlets article looks like this:

{{rs player | nat = IRE | natvar=rugby | pos = FL | name = [[Simon Easterby]] | other = captain}}

As you can see, the "natvar" parameter makes all the difference. – PeeJay 07:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Cheers! I've made a mental note of that and sorted it for the page I was editing. PeemJim86 (talk) 15:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Images

In trying to find some decent images for Edinburgh Rugby I came across a load on the club web site (registration may be needed, not sure): [5]. Would be handy not only for the club page but also a number of player bios if they could be used. Not sure of copyright issues though, can anyone give me a pointer?...PeemJim86 (talk) 01:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

They will almost certainly be copywritten. Your best bet may be to email them and ask them to release the images under a creative commons licence. I'm not an expert on this, but may be able to help a little. - Shudde ^talk 02:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Page view comparisons

Please everyone have a look at User:Shudde/WPRU. I compared a number of high profile articles within the project and came to the conclusion that Rugby union, Six Nations Championship, South Africa national rugby union team and Scotland national rugby union team are probably the best four candidates to focus any collaborative efforts towards. - Shudde ^talk 13:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/New articles

Reactivated (for want of a better phrase) this page to assist with article assessment and improvement.Londo06 16:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Feed back of suggested change

What would users feelings being if {{Rugby_squad_player}} was changed to comply with Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(flags)#Use_of_flags_for_sports_people, ie replacing the flagicon with links to the national team Gnevin (talk) 09:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)?

I would oppose such a change. For players who have actually played international rugby, it might make sense, but then you'd have to find a way of replacing the flag with a text alternative that takes up a similar amount of space. And even then, the text would be surrounded by even more text, making the table difficult to read. IMO, the flagicons are used sensibly in this case, and help to break up lines of text. – PeeJay 09:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Their is plenty of space even it the player played for the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (i.e the longest country name I can think of). At the moment the table shows Nat. this is untrue as players can declare for different countries with out effecting their nationality, The MOS clearly says flags should not be used for nationality, If they are Shane_Horgan should have a while Rory Best should have not the which is indicating their national association Gnevin (talk) 09:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, in sporting terms, nationality is the same as the country a player plays for. – PeeJay 09:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The thing is , it's not. I am sure some of the All_blacks#Current_squad would still consider them self a cook islander or what ever. So Sitiveni Sivivatu isn't Fijian and Rodney So'oialo isn't Samoan they are New Zealanders? Gnevin (talk) 10:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

In rugby terms, no, they're not. To all intents and purposes, in sport, your nationality is governed by the national team you play for. Simple as. – PeeJay 10:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

That is hardly very clear to passers by is it now? Your national team is just that a team representing a nation ,it doesn't effect nationality in anyway. A link to the national association would be better and clearer and wouldn't require a made up definition of nationality Gnevin (talk) 11:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Ireland is the special case as there are two separate nations competing as one, and so the Ireland (rugby) flag is relevant. The other flags should be for easy identification for people who are familiar with the subject through to people who have only a limited interest in the oval shaped ball. Gotta back PeeJay up 100% here.Londo06 11:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Read WP:Flags , and tell me which is clearer

Number	Nat.	Player
1		Joe Blogs
2		Sitiveni Sivivatu

Number	National Union	Player
1	Australia	Joe Blogs
2	New Zealand	Sitiveni Sivivatu

Note Joe bloggs has never played for the Aussies or any other national team that is just his national union Gnevin (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It may be better visually for a move to a symbol for NZ. ie Image:All Blacks logo.svg Also Mark McLinden is an Australian rugby league player, he is from speaking to him on the matter to apply for British Citizenship under residence grounds towards the end of this year.Londo06 11:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

How about these 9 symbols: New Zealand? I'm aware Mark McLinden is a Aussie league player it was just an example (i've changed it now,sorry for any confusion)193.203.152.3 Gnevin (talk) 13:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Just thought i'd throw a spanner in the works with McLinden born in Australia, representing them at junior level and now applying to be British.Londo06 14:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be more a spanner in the flags works which is claiming nationality, where as we all know player can change unions. National Union and union name isn't making any claim of nationality passport or pseudo sports nationality Gnevin (talk) 15:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Logos cannot be used for licensing purposes. Also, keep with the flags. MTC. --Bob (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Any reason why?Gnevin (talk) 15:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

We are only allowed to use logos under the "fair use" clause. They are copyrighted by the respective union. This would definitely not count as fair use. National flags have no copyright and so we can use them.GordyB (talk) 20:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I meant any particluar reason why s/he was saying keep the flags, example of the Leinster Rugby squad , User:Gnevin/sandbox2. Much clearer and well defined would you not agree ?Gnevin (talk) 22:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone here really saying of the two examples above the one with flags is clearer? Gnevin (talk) 15:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the whole idea of flags next to player names is bloody stupid. There are so many confusing situations and exceptions that it's just a complete mess. I think it adds little to an article, and is so completely trivial that it's not even worth wasting our time discussing. - Shudde ^talk 22:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Any comment on how User:Gnevin/sandbox2 looks? Gnevin (talk) 16:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

TBH I would honestly stick with the flags. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 16:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

What about uncapped players? Surely, they don't have a "national union"?GordyB (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

They would have an allegiance though, were they to defect it would change, but birth or confirmed allegiance would be their 'national union' to me. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 16:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

It might be their nationality but it is hard to see how it is their national union. GordyB (talk) 18:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Because it's the union of the country of their nationality. – PeeJay 18:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily, some nationalities don't have a union. A person might feel British but there is no British union (only English, Scots, Welsh etc) nor is there a Northern Irish one either.GordyB (talk) 22:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

How does one determine their allegiance or their union? Some players are eligible for more then one country, some players (especially in the past) have represented more then one country. Like I said above, it's all a waste of time. Who cares about all this? - Shudde ^talk 01:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thats one of the main reasons for not using flags Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(flags)#Do_not_emphasize_nationality_without_good_reason,using National Union doesn't make any bold claim just simply states x player signed a peace of paper with y union as shown below the IRB even use the term Gnevin (talk) 22:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ref of usage of national union by the all blacks

[6]Gnevin (talk) 22:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

America [7] and Australia [8]

And the IRB [9],[10]Gnevin (talk) 22:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you please tell me which union Isa Nacewa is affiliated with? I mean he played for Fiji for all of about 2 mins, yet was signed with the New Zealand Rugby Union while playing for the Blues, but has now signed with Leinster Rugby (which is owned by the Irish Rugby Football Union). Now do you see why this is a complete can of worms? - Shudde ^talk 01:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Changing to National Union is intended to replace the flags being used ,as he played for Fiji it would be listed as Fiji Gnevin (talk) 10:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This whole thing is getting massively overcomplicated. You should all just use your damned common sense. – PeeJay 01:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It was always going to be complicated, because people's national allegiances aren't always simple. - Shudde ^talk 02:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

So just use the one that they are currently closest linked to. If they have played for a national team, then it should be the one that they have played for most recently, but if not, it should be the country of their birth/ancestry/heritage/whatever. Any of this other tripe about the country their current club plays in is utter codswallop. – PeeJay 02:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Clear as mud. Closest linked to? Or country of their birth/ancestry/heritage/whatever? Your suggestion is no simpler then any of the others. As Gnevin posted above Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(flags)#Do_not_emphasize_nationality_without_good_reason; what is the good reason? - Shudde ^talk 02:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Do_not_emphasize_ doesn't apply as linking to the union is showing the team they play for or could play for not a nationality. The national team is very important in some sports Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(flags)#Use_of_flags_for_sports_peopleGnevin (talk) 10:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Because everyone has a nationality, whether it be their professional nationality or otherwise. – PeeJay 02:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

People can have dual nationality though right? What is professional nationality? You still havn't told me what the good reason is. I mean, I know flags look pretty, but really, they can cause NPOV or undue weight problems—especially when players/coaches have affiliations with more then one country. So why bother with what is a very minor addition to any article? - Shudde ^talk 03:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Nationality is very important in squad lists, particularly in countries where there is a limit on the number of "foreign" players that may be registered for the team. – PeeJay 03:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the crux of the issue is that nationality is one of the few essential items of information for any squad list. I think if you asked a fan of any sport what should be included in their team's squad list, they would say Name, Position, Squad number (if applicable) and Nationality. Anything else is just superfluous guff. – PeeJay 03:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. Nationality is generally trivial—tells you nothing important. Name and position is all you really need. For those teams (and this is only applicable sometimes) that have a restriction on foreign players, there may be a much better way of indicating who is eligible for the country in question (for example Wales, if it's a Welsh team) and who is not then national flags. A superscript, such as ^‡ would be a better, much less complicated way to go, with a note below the squad table. - Shudde ^talk 03:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You are the nationality of the passport you hold. You can change allegiance through qualifying via residential grounds or through confirmed lineage. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 11:02, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

In sporting terms we don't care what passport they hold, we care what national team they have/are/can play for .Gnevin (talk) 11:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

And the national team they have played/are playing/can play for is mandated by the passport they hold. Whether that passport has been acquired by birth, residency, marriage or heritage is inconsequential. – PeeJay 11:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not , players can declare for nations via Grandparents/Parents while holding other passports and their a residency rule[11] Citizenship of a country and/or whether a Player holds a passport of a particular country are not, of themselves, determinative in identifying which Union a Player is eligible to represent. This will be determined solely in accordance with the IRB’s eligibility criteria. [12] Gnevin (talk) 11:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

My statement was a progression. You would start with the passport, place of birth, etc. Then go and confirm the parent or grandparent for eligilibity. Residence is different for different sports, usually four years across the board. Yes a British passport doesn't allow you to play for any nation, but no-one has said that is the case. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 11:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well your statement was incorrect then and so is the above statement. As the IRB clearly state This will be determined solely in accordance with the IRB’s eligibility criteria. People can play for France with out holding a French passport Gnevin (talk) 11:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

At no point did I say you had to tear up your old passport. It is assumed you would have one for travel purposes with international competitions making it a necessity.Alexsanderson83 (talk) 12:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

But the point remains that passport nationality can be different to the national team a player is playing on and so using a national flag is confusing as the person may just of lived in that country for 3 years and still identify with their home nation Gnevin (talk) 12:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I player would have to declare their allegiance to a nation, otherwise it would be the defacto nation. You are a British citizen, but Britain is not a country. If someone decides they want to play for England through residence they would have the English flag, ie. Lesley Vainikolo who was born in Tonga, but a New Zealand citizen and rugby league international. Tony Smith, the England rugby league manager, born in Australia but who has lived in England for many years and is the process of applying for a British passport. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Would putting an English flag next to Vainikolo's name not imply he was English? This is yet another reason it is not a good idea. He also played for New Zealand in league, so on the league article's it's a NZ flag and in the rugby articles it's English? Implying he is English is NPOV and undue weight. Because he merely represents them in rugby. It's not going to be clear to a reader that is all the flag is supposed to represent. - Shudde ^talk 01:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

We've had a few play for Wales over the years, once they announce intentions to use lineage, qualify under residence they are Welsh. Doesn't matter if they don't play for the full national side as there are legal ramminfications with regards to non-EU workers, etc. On the whole though I am happy with the current system, I mostly read rather than contribute and I find the current system easy to navigate. GarethHolteDavies (talk) 11:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd be interested to know what people thought of moving towards and to distinguish between the two big names down under. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Any thoughts, anyone?  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  14:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(flags)#Inventing_new_flags_and_using_non-flag_stand-ins are my thoughts Gnevin (talk) 15:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really sure they are your thoughts, but thankyou anyway.  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  17:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Straw poll

I am finding it difficult to keep track of this discussion, I would like to conduct a straw poll just to see where users stand .I hope you don't mind this poll isn't a vote for either flags or not just an indication of your current view, please sign # ~~~~ add a short reason

Support the status quo (keeping the flags)

1. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 12:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC) No problem from the existing system except the similarities between the NZ and Australian flags.
2. necronudist (talk) 13:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC) Flags indicating the national team the player plays for, if he does.

   Just wondering do you mean if they've never played they'd have no flag? Gnevin (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

   No, if he never played for any national team, just use the flag of his birthplace. --necronudist (talk) 21:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

3. Nothing wrong with the current system. – PeeJay 17:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
4. PeemJim86 (talk) 18:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC) Not sure what the problem is in all honesty. Flag of country of birth/residence (common sense determines which I feel), superseded by union if conflicting (i.e. Dan Parks, Nathan Hines and Brendan Laney would be listed as Scottish).

   Comment player/people infoboxes no longer contain the person national flags as per WP:Flags, so why is their nationality needed in the middle of a club page ? Gnevin (talk) 14:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

   Infoboxes about people were never supposed to use flags, as far as I am aware. – PeeJay 14:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

5. Londo06 20:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC) I fail to see any real problems
6. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
7. GarethHolteDavies (talk) 11:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC) - I find the current system easy to navigate and works on a visual level as well.

Could you explain how it has anything to do with navigation, and why being nice on a 'visual level' has anything to do with this? - Shudde ^talk 13:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Support removing flags but have issues with the layout at User:Gnevin/sandbox2 (i.e don't like term national union)

# As per my points above. Don't believe either are necessary, and clearly, as we have seen above, determining which flag/national union to assign a player is complex and fraught with problems. - Shudde ^talk 12:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Support complete removal of nationality/country information from template

1. The information is irrelevant and, as per the discussion above, ambiguous or confusing without lengthy explanations. To find out a player's background, you simply click the link to their article. Also allows for inclusion of proper (non-abbreviated) positions. dramatic (talk) 01:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
2. As per everything I've said above, and what Dramatic has also said. - Shudde ^talk 01:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
3. I'd support this ,i only suggested my layout as a half way house Gnevin (talk) 11:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Chris Sheasby

Just wanted to let you know that I was surprised when I couldn't find an article about him, so I've made one for you to develop. Really shocked that such a recent England international didn't have an article! --Dweller (talk) 13:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

was on a long list of rugby articles that want doing. Added an external link and assessed for you.Londo06 17:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

English names

Does anyone know the English names of these two unions

• Fédération Ivoirienne de Rugby
• Fédération Tahitienne de Rugby de Polynésie Française . If someone knows can you move the pages to the correct names Gnevin (talk) 17:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the IRB website, the Fédération Ivoirienne de Rugby doesn't have an English name, but I have moved Fédération Tahitienne de Rugby de Polynésie Française to Tahiti Rugby Union. – PeeJay 17:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

We seem to have a rather long list of items here. There is currently no bot attached to automatically archive older discussions and I am hesitant to remove details to an archive. If someone wants to decide on a time period back-dating how far we should remove items from the non-active talk. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 13:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I threw some of the oldest into an archive. We don't have a bot do it, but this page isn't so active that we can't do it manually. - Shudde ^talk 01:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Rugby union portal

The Portal:Rugby union is currently featured, but for it to stay that way we need to make sure we do a couple of things:

• Select an article every month to be displayed on the page.
• Keep the news section up to date.

The other parts of the page are randomly changed, so there is no requirement to maintain those. Anyway I would appreciate some help doing the other two things. Most importantly, I would love some ideas for a selected article for May (to be displayed tomorrow). All we need is an article of reasonable quality, with a free image. It would also be good if it was not similar to any displayed over the previous few months as well. Ideas anyone? - Shudde ^talk 01:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

Hi WikiProject Rugby union. IP editor 78.86.227.174 recently made this edit to Cyprus national rugby union team. I have no idea whether it's a good edit or not, but the same IP address recently vandalised an article which is on my watchlist, so I thought I'd bring the edit to your attention, just in case it was vandalism. DH85868993 (talk) 07:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions - Sponsorship of competitions

Following discussions elsewhere I thought it best to bring it up here as well. The concerns are over the Heineken Cup, Magners League and Guinness Premiership. Currently unsure whether sponsored names are discouraged, allowed, outlawed, etc.Londo06 17:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Policy is to use whatever name is most common. Heineken Cup and Guniness Premeiership are definitely the most common names. Magners versus Celtic is debateable.GordyB (talk) 17:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Per my discussion with User:Nouse4aname, it's debateable whether Guinness Premiership is the most common name for that league. I mean, the league has had four different sponsored names since it was first established back in the '80s. As for the Celtic League, many people I know still call it the Celtic League, and since its sponsorship by Magners is due to end soon, I don't believe that "Magners League" is the appropriate name for the article. – PeeJay 17:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

How many people say "English premiership"? It's more of a discription than a name.GordyB (talk) 17:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

This page about the history of the Premiership uses "English Premiership" towards the bottom to refer to its collective incarnations. – PeeJay 17:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Once and once only. The page is titled and headed "Guinness Premiership".GordyB (talk) 18:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You didn't stop to think that might be because the page is run by the league itself, and so would have to use "Guinness Premiership" wherever possible? – PeeJay 18:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I did but I don't expect that very many independent websites will be much different.GordyB (talk) 18:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Where possible a non-sponsored name should be used for the article. This is because sponsors often change every few years even though the competition remains essentitally the same. Articles for sports competitions usually have hundreds of inbound wikilinks, and if the article is moved, all the bot-performed fixes of redirections often cause anachronisms for players who only played in an earlier version. We fixed this over at cricket, where we have New Zealand first-class cricket championship, with Plunket Shield, Shell Trophy and State Championship all redirecting to it, and use of piped links encouraged in articles. dramatic (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Surely the Guinness Premiership is or was a long term deal and as such would remain that until it were to change. I would have that as its name. The Celtic League/Magners League seems a more thorny issue, I know it as the Magners League, but it is also known as the Celtic League. Heineken Cup has for as long as I have been aware of the comp, known it as that, not the European Cup.Alexsanderson83 23:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

No matter how long it has (or will be) known as Guinness premiership, it has also had several other names in the past, and is likely to change in the future. The Celtic League is relatively new, and so far has only had one sponsor (Magners), but prior to this was unsponsored, and thus known simply as the Celtic League. So I think where two or more names have been used, the non-sponsored name should be the article title (with piped links used in other articles where appropriate). Where only one name has been used (whether sponsored or not), stick with that name, under WP:COMMONNAME. Nouse4aname (talk) 07:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. From now on, wherever possible, I shall try to stick to that guideline. – PeeJay 07:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say that I have, since the competition has been sponsored by Guinness, never heard the competition called anything but the Guinness Premiership, by English and foreigners. The Celtic League is one for me as I have heard that used as often as Magners.Londo06 08:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Given that northern hemisphere rugby gets relatively minimal coverage outside of specialist rugby media or Pay TV down here, I had to follow the various links being discussed to find out what they were. I think that all the current article names are good choices (and importantly they add "(rugby union)", and of course the sponsored names all redirect to the relevant articles. I see no need to change the status quo. dramatic (talk) 10:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So we're going to stick with Celtic League (rugby union), English Premiership (rugby union) and Heineken Cup then? Or should Heineken Cup be moved to European Rugby Cup?

Heineken Cup is way more common isn't it? Even down here it's much more common. - Shudde ^talk 11:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think I've ever heard it referred to as anything other than the Heineken Cup, even though it is a European Rugby Cup, it is not called the European Rugby Cup. Perhaps if the sponsorship (ever?) ends it will need to be moved, but for now Heineken Cup is clearly the common name, if not the only name. Nouse4aname (talk) 11:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Heineken Cup is one that is locked in, everyone knows it as that.Londo06 16:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It is known as the H Cup or Coupe d'Europe de rugby à XV in France due to alcohol sponsorship legislation. For the same reason, the Guinness Premiership is known as Championnat d'Angleterre de rugby à XV. For the same reason, English language publications in France refer to the former as European Rugby Cup or the H Cup and the latter as the English rugby union premiership. For the Celtic League, that stays as the Celtic League. --Bob (talk) 17:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Seems the standard thing elsewhere, as long as there is piping involved. The only one I would fight for is the Heineken Cup, that's what it is to the English speaking world. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 08:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

On exactly the same criteria the term Magners League is used more commonly than Celtic League. You can't have one rule for Heineken and another for Magners. --Snowded (talk) 13:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Not really, the Heineken Cup has only ever been called the Heineken Cup. It only uses a different name due to sponsorship regulations. The Magners League was officially known as the Celtic League for 3 seasons, prior to the sponsorship deal with Magners, and so has had two official, widely used names. The Heineken Cup is only rarely referred to by a non-sponsored term.Nouse4aname (talk) 13:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

And after three seasons it is now known as the Magners League. If the Heineken Cup had a different sponsor would you carry on calling it Heineken? Its not a logical argument to go back to a past name. Neither is the term Celtic league in wide use, I've hardly seen it in any Blues match programme this season, or any any televised match. The only objective approach here is to use the current official name with a historical note. --Snowded (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I have no preference as to whether Magners or Celtic League is used. I always assumed that under WP:COMMONNAME we should be using Magners, but I've seen arguments for and against so I'm not really convinced either way. I think the only one that is perhaps obvious is Heineken Cup, so maybe we should just continue using Magners League... I'm not really sure why this all got so complicated! The thing with the celtic league, is I think the Magners League is the name, but celtic league is what it is (if that makes sense?!) Nouse4aname (talk) 13:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the Heineken is a brain dead issue, but the Magners is not far away - your recent edits by season showed the change from Celtic to Magners. I think the balance is for the official name unless someone objects. There has been talk about the odd Italian team joining. We don't have the word "Premiership" in Wales for it (unlike England) so the only name is that of the sponsor. --Snowded (talk) 14:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. There is no real reason not to use the current, most widely used name. The only time there may be debate is during the transition from one sponsored name to the next, but since both Magners and Guinness have been sponsors for several seasons, these will be the common name. Perhaps we should wait for further opinions before changing the articles back? Nouse4aname (talk) 14:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - leave it a day to see if any one has a strong opinion against. --Snowded (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree completely. I know many people who still refer to the "Magners League" as the Celtic League. Furthermore, Magners' sponsorship of the league is due to run out this summer and, unless they decide to renew the sponsorship, the league will undoubtedly take up a new name. Is that to say that we should rename the article when the league gets a new name? No, of course not. The league began as, and will forever continue to be, the Celtic League, so that is what the title of the article should be. I can understand people's objections to the use of an alternative name for the Heineken Cup, however. As someone pointed out to me earlier, the competition has never been known by any other name, and so is obviously the name most commonly used in everyday speech. Finally, with regard to the English Premiership, that competition has been known by four different names since its inception in the late 1980s, and only became known as the Guinness Premiership in 2005, meaning that it has been known as the Guinness Premiership for three years now. This is nowhere near as long as it was known as the Zurich Premiership, which was almost five years. And of course its original name, the "Courage League", lasted for a full ten years! The BBC used the name "English Premiership" as the league's unsponsored name (here), so we should do the same to avoid any confusion between the different incarnations of the league. – PeeJay 15:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Google hits are far higher for Magners over Celtic. Official Web site is Magners. All Club Programmes are Magners. If they don't renew sponsorship then the name changes - exactly the same as would be the case for the Heineken. It will take five seconds to action if it happens. This is the Wikipedia, in the case of doubt we really have to go with the official name. In England we have "Guninness Premiership" so you can make a case for Premiership, but then the equivalent would be "league" which is nonsense. Also there are other organisations with the title Celtic League.

Well obviously the official website and club programmes say "Magners League". The league is sponsored by Magners, FFS! However, it hasn't always been known as the Magners League, which is why we have to go for a more neutral name. I really don't understand your point about the Guinness Premiership, however, so I'm just going to ignore it. – PeeJay 20:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it will be Magners League until at least May 2009 [13] Nouse4aname (talk) 16:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, I hadn't seen that news item. Still, it's only another year. – PeeJay 20:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The Super League article is Super League (Europe), not the engage Super League. Don't know if we could go for the wiki rules bit just to clarify for a few people.Londo06 17:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it ends of as a question of consistency - either all the European Tournaments have sponsorship removed from the title or none do. The default must be the official name for each tournament, as per its web site unless a strong argument is made to change them all, including the Heneken --Snowded (talk) 17:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds a bit like an ultimatum to me. Either they all get changed or none do, is that what you're saying? I'm sorry to say this, but that really isn't an option. – PeeJay 20:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Though Super League is often referred to as just Super League, perhaps because Engage is not in place of Super but as well as. So if it were the "Magners Celtic League", maybe the article name "Celtic League" would still be the appropriate...? Nouse4aname (talk) 17:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

PeeJay3K3 the whole point about a talk page is to discuss things and present evidence, rather than just make assertions and accusations. The argument is one of consistency. If the official name of a league includes its sponsor name then I think it should be so named. I am also arguing that if there is a desire to remove such sponsor names (the claim when you did the original reversal) then that such be done consistently across all the leagues and that would include the Heineken. Within the text (as Nouse4aname has done on the Blues page) the name for the relevant year can be shown. It seems to be that this is most logical and consistent approach. Your only argument so far has been that the name in "common use" should prevail, which supports Heineken and also supports Magners. I cited Google hits to support that, and the press and club programmes, Your only evidence is that you know many people who use "Celtic League". Well that is not my experience having attended most Blues matches this season, being in regular contact with Ulster fans, and watching most matches on television. However that is not evidence (my experience or yours). In addition we have the argument on ease of search. At the moment "Celtic League" takes you elsewhere so we end up with "Celtic League (rugby union". Magners league (I checked with a few friends in New Zealand this morning and that is the name they are familiar with) is unique. Sponsor changes can easily be handled by pipes. I also notice that when this was discussed on the Celtic League page those who contributed wanted the sponsor name.

So if you want to us Celtic you (i) have to deal with the consistency argument, (ii) the official name argument, (iii) the non unique name issue and (iv) provide evidence other than your own opinion that "popular use" supports Celtic. I await your argument with interest. --Snowded (talk) 05:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

If consistency is what you want, Snowded, then it will be necessary to split Celtic League (rugby union) into Magners League and Celtic League (preferably both with the (rugby union) qualifier) and cover each period separately. Otherwise all your arguments invalidate themselves for the pre-Magners period. To me, the creation of an anachronism by calling something a name it didn't yet have at the time inquestion is a worse problem than any other that has been discussed. It is also somewhat ridiculous given that there is continuity in the competition. WP:COMMONNAME was created with zoology, geography and other sciences in mind - it does not really cater for names which are expected to change regularly (In fact I think that I shall propose this as a specific exception there).dramatic (talk) 10:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

A very weak argument Dramatic, firstly there is no need to split the article, that can be handled by a note in the introduction and also by the annual linkages (following the method used on Cardiff Blue's page). The Manners league has continuity with the Celtic League. It is not uncommon for Wikipedia articles to be moved as names, or conventions on naming change and it presents no problems that I am aware of. If you argument is taken forward then (i) we have to rename the Heineken cup now to something that cannot change, and/or assume that no one is ever allowed to change the names of public or private bodies without creating multiple articles - an obvious nonsense. How about addressing the full range of arguments? --Snowded (talk) 10:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply. The quote "When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?" just about says it all really. What will someone be most likely to search for? Surely they will use the name that they are most aware of, that is, the Magners League. I do remember referring to the Magners League as the Celtic League last season, but I think that is just during the transition between names. Now Magners is more familiar, and more often used. If you look at the BBC site for example, they use Magners League, Guinness Premiership and Engage Super League. Thinking about it, these are the official, full names of the championship, and thus should be reflected in the page name.Nouse4aname (talk) 12:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I still fail to see how this is a problem. The sponsored names can still exist, but as redirects to the unsponsored name. This avoids confusion between the different incarnations of the league, and also aids with linking from other articles. – PeeJay 12:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Because the article should exist at the location of the current, common name. When the name changes, the article can be moved. Nouse4aname (talk) 13:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

If that is so, I would like to see you try and convince the guys over at WP:FOOTY that Premier League should be moved to Barclays Premier League or that Football League Championship should be moved to Coca-Cola Championship. Basically, sponsors can, and do, change, often quite regularly. It's completely inefficient to have to change the name every time the sponsor changes, so we should stick to the unsponsored name. – PeeJay 13:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I have put a message up at WP:FOOTY requesting contributions to this discussion. – PeeJay 13:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems that discussion has already taken place regards the football articles, and a consensus reached. It is inappropriate to apply that decision "across the board" as it were, and appears that consensus for rugby is tending towards using the sponsored names. I fail to see how taking 30 seconds every few years to move a page is inefficient...Nouse4aname (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why the decision shouldn't be applied "across the board", as you say. The decision at WP:FOOTY was obviously made because one set of arguments outweighed the other set. Now I'm sure that the two sets of arguments wouldn't differ too much between football and rugby, so why is it that the case for using sponsored names seems to be in the lead here? – PeeJay 13:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

That discussion took place at the Football project board, and so can only fairly be expect to apply to related articles. This discussion involves different people, and while the arguments may be essentially the same, the outcome may not be. Just as decisions at WP:FOOTY shouldn't affect rugby articles, I wouldn't expect them to change their decision based on the outcome here. Just look at the BBC site, they use Magners League, Guinness Premiership and Engage Super League, but then use Premiership, Chamionship etc for football...perhaps they can explain why they use different naming systems...!Nouse4aname (talk) 14:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The BBC is just one independent media outlet, so what they do is immaterial in the grand scheme of things. If we're going to do things based on what other people do, we should at least look at things across the board rather than at just one site. – PeeJay 14:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeez. It was just an example... Nouse4aname (talk) 14:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It would help PeeJay2K3 if you would do other editors the courtesy of responding to their arguments. I went to the trouble of numbering them to help you. The true spirit of the Wikipedia is the discuss using evidence and reach consensus, difficult if one party does not engage in the process. As to your most recent argument, the BBC is one source of many which use the Magners League, so do Santana and all the press that I can see (with a quick online check) and I know the club programmes and web sites all do. Please respond to and present evidence rather than making assertions --Snowded (talk) 14:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we are getting confused between the name of a league, and what that league is. For example, the Guinness Premiership is the English rugby union premiership. Its name is the Guinness Premiership, the English Premiership is simply a description of what it is. Again, the Magners league is the top tier of rugby union in the Celtic nations, it is a Celtic League, but it is no longer the Celtic League, it is the Magners League. Confusing, maybe, but this is how I see it. The official name of a league is the sponsored title, whereas the unsponsored version simply describes what that league is...Nouse4aname (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's an interesting thing I just found. At the BBC, they refer to the Celtic League as the "Magners Celtic League", as you can see here. – PeeJay 14:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Ha! How's that for a compromise...?!Nouse4aname (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

As the indenting is getting out of control I started again. First I note that PeeJay continues to avoid answering any arguments, but now having found a BBC web site which combines the name seizes on it. If you look at the BBC web site under Rugby then on all the fixtures and results pages we see "Magners League" "Guinness Premiership". Navigating from the home page I can't find the referenced page unless I paste it into the Browser. The Official site of the League is "The Magners League. The Guiness Premiership is the Guiness Premiership on its home page. The evidence for common use is overwealming. Accepting Magners Celtic League as a compromise might work however - do I gather that PeeJay would accept this? --Snowded (talk) 16:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not accept this. You cannot take what is put on the league's official website as what we should use here. Obviously the sponsors have paid many thousands of pounds for those sponsorship deals, so it's not surprising that their name would be plastered all over the respective leagues' websites. As for that BBC reference, I merely use that as evidence that the league is still called the Celtic League, and that the sponsor's name is only a temporary addition that can be chopped and changed. One analogy I would use is the example of a Post-It note or a sticky label being used to cover over another word. Those sticky labels can be removed and, if necessary, replaced, but what's important is that the original name will always remain underneath the sponsored name. – PeeJay 16:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

OK so you have found one BBC web site that uses "Magners Celtic League" in contrast with all the navigation from the BBC sports home page that uses "Magners League". You are also arguing that the owners of the league are not allowed to name it "Magners" or at least that they should not be followed in that approach due to their commercial interest. I think that is a very weak reply to one argument. You have not addressed the common use arguments in respect of Google Searches, club web sites, the press etc. etc. If you are arguing that the original name should stand, then you are in effect saying that if the Heineken Cub gets a new sponsor, then it should still be called the Heineken Cup?

It seems to me that you are arguing a POV about the use of commercial names not dealing with the facts. That said I repeat the earlier questions as to using Magners Celtic League as a compromise to which you have not responded. --Snowded (talk) 16:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea how you got the idea that the Heineken Cup article should still be called "Heineken Cup" if the sponsor changes. In fact, quite the opposite. If the Heineken Cup's sponsor changes, then I would say that the competition's unsponsored name should be found (I'm pretty sure it's "European Rugby Cup", by the way). – PeeJay 17:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

This is getting tedious; I was pointing out a logical inconsistency in your argument about the Magners league of the sponsor changed. Are you now arguing that we should rename the Heineken Cup page? Just to remind you, that page is titled "Heineken Cub" and the first line states "The European Rugby Cup (known as the Heineken Cup due to the tournament's sponsorship by Heineken)". This seems sound practice and we should do the same with the Magners League. In addition you continue, perversely, to avoid dealing with the range of arguments presented or bother to answer questions posed. You are getting close to bad faith edits. --Snowded (talk) 17:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The first line of the Heineken Cup article only reads that way because I changed it to say that when I moved the article to European Rugby Cup. However, that move was reverted when this discussion began. In many ways, I am still of the opinion that it should be located at European Rugby Cup, with a redirect from Heineken Cup, but I was convinced by User:Nouse4aname's argument earlier in the discussion, which is why I haven't moved it since. However, since you began your crusade for consistency, my opinion is beginning to sway back the other way again, to say that it should be located at European Rugby Cup. – PeeJay 17:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I am conducting a crusade, and consistency is but one argument I have put forward, along with common use arguments and a general argument of common sense to facilitate search. So how about you deal with the arguments (outlined above and consistently ignored by you) against your position and we can then come to a resolution or take the matter to moderation if it cannot be resolved (You have by the way continued to ignore the question about a compromise to wit Magners Celtic League). --Snowded (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

First, "Magners Celtic League" is not a viable option as it is not one of the league's official names. It is just an amalgamation of the two official names that I am aware of. Second, "common use arguments and a general argument of common sense to facilitate search" can be dealt with by one simple solution. Redirects. If you type in "Guinness Premiership", "Zurich Premiership", "Allied Dunbar Premiership" or "Courage League", you will be redirected to English Premiership (rugby union), just like you would be redirected to Celtic League (rugby union) from "Magners League", and European Rugby Cup from "Heineken Cup". Happy now? – PeeJay 18:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

None of these competitions have several official names as you suggest. They have had several official names in the past, but always have only one current official name. Surely the article should be located there. Explain why we should ignore the only relevant policy/guidline at WP:COMMONNAME. Nouse4aname (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, why can't the redirects all point to the current league/competition name? Why should they all point to where you suggest? Nouse4aname (talk) 18:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually they would all have had two official names at any one time, one being the sponsored name, and one the unsponsored one, which brings me on to my next point. Since the unsponsored name is the only name that lasts from the league's inception to when it folds, that should be the one we use. – PeeJay 18:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

No, they don't have a sponsored/unsponsored name. Just one name, which happens to be sponsored. Thus, the current name should be used, as the guidline suggests. Nouse4aname (talk) 18:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

That's impossible, surely. That's like saying that the Premier League only has one name, which it obviously doesn't. – PeeJay 19:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The position in Soccer may be different, but in Rugby Nouse4aname is right to say that there is only one name. Celtic League is no longer an official name, you don't find it on the leagues official site, the WRU site the SRU or the IRU site. It is a former name, not the current one, not an alternative one. You are the person making a distinction between sponsored and unsponsored names it is not made by the authorities. Magners League is in common use on television, radio, the press. In all conversations I have had in grounds in Wales, Ireland and Scotland this year the reference has been to the Magners League, and to the Heineken Cup. The English league is normally "Guinness Premiership". I think the position is very different in Soccer in terms of common use. In addition you are forced to add "rugby union" to Celtic League and English Premiership in order to avoid confusion with other pages, whereas the official names would be unique. As far as I can see the overwhelming evidence and WIkipedia policy is for using the official names. Redirection would handle any renaming, and you cannot argue against that as you are using redirection to justify your non-standard use names anyway. Its probably time to do a summary for and against and get people to commit one way or the other. From what you have said its going to be an either/or not a compromise. --Snowded (talk) 19:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it's time for arbitration. Let's not let this be done by a simple vote-taking process, however. Let's let other people justify their opinions before simply totting up the votes. – PeeJay 19:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Futher to the issue is the naming of the other leagues, such as Scottish Hydro Electric Premiership Division Three, Scottish Hydro Electric Premiership Division Two, Scottish Hydro Electric Premiership Division One to Scottish Premier Division One (rugby union, Scottish Premier Division Two (rugby union and Scottish Premier Division Three (rugby union. The Welsh Premier Division is not titled Principality Premiership and the Six Nations Championship is not titled RBS 6 Nations. Furthermore, the Hong Kong Sevens is not entitled Cathay Pacific/Credit Suisse Hong Kong Sevens. Sponsors should be deleted from the titles as they are not, generally speaking, stable. In the case of the H Cup, although it has been stable so far, it is not universally called Heineken Cup due to legislation regarding alcohol sponsorship. --Bob (talk) 15:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

OK. So what is the common name of those competitions, therein lies your answer.... Nouse4aname (talk) 16:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Decision required on naming

Following reversals both ways we need to resolve the naming convention for the following tournaments. Please indicate your preference with a BRIEF summary (note there are longer arguments above).

• Magners League or Celtic League (rugby union)
• Heineken Cup or European Rugby Cup
• Guinness Premiership or English Premiership (rugby union)

Opinions below --Snowded (talk) 19:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• FOR the first option in all three cases. (i) we should use the official name as default and in the Magners League the phrase "Celtic League" is no longer used. (ii) These are the common use names in press television and day to day conversation (iii) they are the likely search terms from overseas. --Snowded (talk) 19:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• FOR the first opinion in all three cases. For reasons stated immediately above, and by policy/guidline at WP:COMMONNAME. These three are clearly the most common name. Nouse4aname (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• My vote has to go to Celtic League (rugby union), English Premiership (rugby union) and European Rugby Cup. Although the other names may be more common at this moment in time, that has not always been the case, and nor will it be for the remainder of history, so we need to go for something with a bit more longevity. Furthermore, the above options allow for ease of linking from other articles, as they would not require re-piping every time the competition gets a new sponsor. – PeeJay 22:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Why do we need longevity? It doesn't take much to move a page....Nouse4aname (talk) 08:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• First option, particualrly in the case of the Heineken Cup.GordyB (talk) 22:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Against change to the first options, with a possible exception where the competition has never had another name or we know the sponsorship is not fixed-term. This should be an exception to WP:COMMONNAME, as it causes future problems when competitions change sponsors, and difficulty linking from articles where a former name is the only relevant one. Article names should be self-explanatory where possible, i.e. including the sport. dramatic (talk) 22:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
  • 1) Although you may think it should be an exception to WP:COMMONNAME, it isn't.
  • 2) How does it cause problems when the sponsor changes? Simply move the page and use piped links where needed. If we redirect from Magners League to Celtic League, then we are spreading false information that the name is not Magners League, or at least not officially, and that the primary name is Celtic League. This is simply not the case. Nouse4aname (talk) 08:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Example: If the page is called Magners League, an editor creating a page about a player who has just retired won't use a piped link. Next year the League becomes, say, Orange League, and we move the page. A bot updates the article on player X, and because it isn't piped, it suddenly contains false information. Having an article title which is descriptive rather than a name is not false information - the first line of Celtic League (rugby union) makes the situation perfectly clear. dramatic (talk) 11:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• (another great debate) I think Heineken Cup should stay as is because is so overwhelmingly common. Don't care either way about the other two. - Shudde ^talk 03:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• My vote has to go to Celtic League (rugby union), English Premiership (rugby union) and European Rugby Cup for reasons stated above. --Bob (talk) 15:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• FORLondo06 15:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• I actually prefer "Magners League", "Heineken Cup" and "Guinness Premiership" since that's what its commonly known as...I really don't see why this is necessary anyway? ...--Cometstyles 09:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• FOR in all three cases. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 18:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This discussion has now been open for a week and the clear concensus is for a"Magners League", "Heineken Cup" and "Guinness Premiership". Shall we now make the changes? --Snowded (talk) 19:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• For Magners, Heineken and Guinness. As naming conventions as well as a pint of. Alexsanderson83 21:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Changes made

I have moved Celtic League to Magners league as per the above agreement --Snowded (talk) 21:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Have fun repairing all the damage you've just done! Every player who retired in 2006 or earlier MUST use a piped link to avoid current/future anachronisms. Unfortunately there is no way of warning the creators of new player articles. dramatic (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I checked a couple of former players and there wasn't a problem there. Perhaps you could give some illustrations. Your warning on the page it a bit petty by the way - putting up a warning for a concern is legitimate, using it to whinge about a decision you disagree with seems less useful. --Snowded (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Failure of Collaboration of the Fortnight and alternative proposal

I hate to say this, but the project's collaboration of the fortnight has been a failure. It hasn't succeeded in significantly improving an article in some time, and the process has only resulted in one Featured Article (Rugby World Cup). I propose we replace it with a competition instead. The system has been quite successful for WP:MILHIST; although they are a much larger project then this one. Anyway it may work. I've written up a draft competition proposal that can be viewed at User:Shudde/sandbox. Comments? - Shudde ^talk 12:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

No comments? Who would be interested in something like this? - Shudde ^talk 05:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Reg Birkett and John Birkett

Greetings from WP:FOOTBALL! I've just created an article on Reginald Halsey Birkett, who played international football for England in 1872, and have discovered that he also played international rugby union for England in 1871; his brother (name unknown) was also a player, as was Reg's son John, who made 21 appearances between 1906 and 1921 (see RFU website for details. I was just wondering if any kind soul could add rugby career details to Reg's article, and maybe create the brother and son's articles. Kind regards, GiantSnowman 14:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Squad listings

The rugby union listings on club articles seems quite poor. By next season should we establish a new, more professional looking standard to illustrate a clubs first team squad. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 18:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with the current one? The squad list for the Llanelli Scarlets uses a similar style to the one used on the majority of association football articles, and has been the accepted format for a long time. – PeeJay 05:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and if you look at any of our Featured Articles none use the format for many of those club articles. I especially hate the idea of two letter abbreviations for positions. The format used in American Football is much neater and attractive I think (for example New England Patriots#Current roster); it's similar to that used for Crusaders (rugby) and Highlanders (rugby) (FA and GA respectively). I don't think just because Association Football uses a certain format we should as well, so discussion on this could be valuable I think. - Shudde ^talk 06:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I would venture that the Crusaders and Highlanders variants are harder to read than the Scarlet one. I believe we do need a standard that both imparts clear information on a players position, and I can't seem to remember my second point this early in the morning.Londo06 06:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Why is it harder to read? - Shudde ^talk 06:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Everyone lumped together in a little box. Personally I would favour a clear division between backs and forwards in the union side of wikipedia.Londo06 06:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how that makes it hard to read. I thought you meant it was straining your eyes or something. If anything I would think the contrasting colours between background (white) and player names (blue/black) makes it easier to read. I think it's simple and easy to understand, and there didn't seem to be any problems here.- Shudde ^talk 06:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It's no great issue, all I'm saying is that I agree with PeeJay that there has been an accepted standard, and for me that works better. Perhaps I was exaggerating the imperfections of the other type, I just feel that one works better for me. No-one is bringing it to a vote yet are they?Londo06 07:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Please, let's not let this descend into vote-taking. Wikipedia is NOT a democracy, so we shouldn't just make decisions based on a show of hands. – PeeJay 07:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, just confirming no-one here is asking for a vote.Londo06 07:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, Shudde, just because an article has reached FA status does not mean that it is perfect, or that there aren't aspects to it that people don't like. Personally, I think the American football squad lists look like a melée of information, but that may just be because their squads are absolutely huge. The squad list currently used on the Llanelli Scarlets article may take up a bit more space, but the text is of an appropriate size and it clearly indicates the player's nationality and position, which I would say are probably the only necessary pieces of information for the squad list. – PeeJay 07:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that the article was perfect, but it has been examined by non-experts, and clearly they had no problems with the squad information displayed. Melee of information is what I don't want. I would also argue that FH does not clearly indicate a players position (as an example). I do think the template is bloody ugly though, and think the American's got this one right! Simple is better, I also like the French wiki's rugby squad system. The point is there are alternatives, and they should be looked it. I also like our system for international teams (Wales national rugby union team#Current squad) for example). This has bigger text, if that's what people like, clearly displays the position (doesn't use abbreviations) and is compact and pretty elegant. - Shudde ^talk 07:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How do you propose to determine the positions of players that play several positions? eg) Utility backs, flankers/No8 etc can often play more than one position..surely listing under their preferred position removes information....Nouse4aname (talk) 08:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That problem exists with the current system. I think you can do two things, just have one position (their most common), or do what some of them have at All Blacks#Current squad and have multiple positions—although this can become ridiculous, because there are players that can play multiple positions but rarely play more then one (for example Daniel Carter (rugby player) has played Template:Half-back before, but only because several players were injured). Also it may be better to have things like "Loose forwards" instead of both "Flanker" and "Number 8" to avoid having to list two positions for example. I don't think that's the main problem with the squad template though; because at the moment you have "FH" meaning "Fly-half" (which many people don't know, and only know the term "First five-eighth") which requires people to determine what FH means. For non-experts, this isn't going to be easy (it may even be impossible unless they click the link). Anyway there are some ideas. I do particularly like the idea of just listing their most common position though. - Shudde ^talk 08:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I also do not like the two letter codes used in the current template as they are hardly standard codes and are diffilcult to interpret for the non-rugby player and rugby players alike. Moreover, many players have more than one position, and the code system does not allow for that. Between the Gridiron format and the current template, I prefer the Gridiron template as it allows for multiple player positions and is easy to read. --Bob (talk) 17:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

No I was pushing for this to become a vote. I do like the two international squad listings detailed in the above discussion. I am not a fan of the American style listing, but I do think the soccer version is alot cleaner than that offered by the Americans and implemented on the New Zealand club pages. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong the soccer one. Seems after reading through that we have three rival systems. Alexsanderson83 21:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong? Really? I don't know if there are rival options yet; hopefully this is just a discussion of strengths/weaknesses of various formats. I don't think we should be voting on anything yet, but rather putting forward various formats so we can all think about what would be best. I would also like to say that I don't think we necessarily need a one size fits all approach. All team pages shouldn't necessarily use the exact same format. - Shudde ^talk 01:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact that we have three different ways to display the information means that we have three rival systems. Nothing sinister in the word, it doesn't necessarily imply competition, just reading through that there are 3 ways of displaying the information. Alexsanderson83 05:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Three systems

Version 1

Note: Flags indicate national union under World Rugby eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-World Rugby nationality.

Player Position Union Garan Evans Fullback Wales Morgan Stoddart Fullback Wales Nathan Brew Wing Wales Darren Daniel Wing Wales Daniel Evans Wing Wales Dafydd James Wing Wales Mark Jones Wing Wales Jonathan Davies Centre Wales Gavin Evans Centre Wales Regan King Centre New Zealand Matthew Watkins Centre Wales Stephen Jones Fly-half Wales Rhys Priestland Fly-half Wales Ceiron Thomas Fly-half Wales Gavin Cattle Scrum-half Wales Liam Davies Scrum-half Wales Dwayne Peel Scrum-half Wales

Player Position Union Ben Broster Prop Wales Bruce Douglas Prop Scotland Phil John Prop Wales Deacon Manu Prop Fiji Iestyn Thomas Prop Wales Daniel George Hooker Wales James Hayter Hooker England Ken Owens Hooker Wales Matthew Rees Hooker Wales Mahonri Schwalger Hooker Samoa Vernon Cooper Lock Wales Dominic Day Lock Wales Adam Eustace Lock England Scott MacLeod Lock Scotland Lou Reed Lock Wales James Bater Flanker Wales Simon Easterby (captain) Flanker Ireland Jonathan Edwards Flanker Wales Dafydd Jones Flanker Wales Gavin Thomas Flanker Wales Josh Turnbull Flanker Wales Alix Popham Number 8 Wales Nathan Thomas Number 8 Wales

Version 3

Backs

Player	Position	Province
Daniel Carter	Template:First five-eighth	Canterbury
Nick Evans	Template:First five-eighth, Template:Fullback	Otago
Andrew Ellis	Template:Half-back	Canterbury
Doug Howlett	Template:Wing	Auckland
Byron Kelleher	Template:Half-back	Waikato
Brendon Leonard	Template:Half-back	Waikato
Leon MacDonald	Template:Fullback	Canterbury
Luke McAlister	Template:Second five-eighth, Template:First five-eighth	North Harbour
Aaron Mauger	Template:Second five-eighth	Canterbury
Mils Muliaina	Template:Fullback, Template:Rugbycentre, Template:Wing	Waikato
Conrad Smith	Template:Rugbycentre	Wellington
Joe Rokocoko	Template:Wing	Auckland
Sitiveni Sivivatu	Template:Wing	Waikato
Isaia Toeava	Template:Rugbycentre, Template:Wing	Auckland

Forwards

Player	Position	Province
Jerry Collins	Template:Flanker	Wellington
Carl Hayman	(P)	Otago
Andrew Hore	Template:Hooker	Taranaki
Chris Jack	Template:Lock	Tasman
Sione Lauaki	Template:Number 8, Template:Flanker	Waikato
Chris Masoe	Template:Flanker,Template:Number 8	Wellington
Richie McCaw (Captain)	Template:Flanker	Canterbury
Keven Mealamu	Template:Hooker	Auckland
Anton Oliver	Template:Hooker	Otago
Keith Robinson	Template:Lock	Waikato
Greg Somerville	(P)	Canterbury
Rodney So'oialo	Template:Number 8	Wellington
Reuben Thorne	Template:Flanker, Template:Lock	Canterbury
Neemia Tialata	(P)	Wellington
Ali Williams	Template:Lock	Auckland
Tony Woodcock	(P)	North Harbour

Discussion continued

These three systems are completely different, each with its own merits and each with its shortcomings. It is interesting to note that the only one which uses a standard template is Version 1. The others use nonstandard code. However, it uses nonstandard abbreviations and uses flags to denote nationality when the country that they play for may be different than their nationality. Version 2 is the smallest, cleanest and most succint version, though it does not allow for province/club listings alongside. Version 3 is the largest and most unwieldly of the three with multiple repitition of wikilinks, although it allows for club/province/nationality/country side. Thoughts ? --Bob (talk) 16:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Version one definitely works for european club rugby and I'm pretty sure is the standard for those articles. Definitely useful to see them all together. Differences between Super 14, European rugby and international teams would make one standard difficult, but for European teams version 1 is definitely the route to go. I say that because in Super 14 nationality is less of an issue as New Zealand teams demand availability for the All Blacks. Alexsanderson83 18:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

New Zealand teams do not demand availability for the All Blacks. Many Super 14 players past and present have played test rugby for Pacific Island countries. I think version one is ugly. The abbreviations suck, and the flags are a problem. Version three is best for the national team articles, although if people think it's too big we could keep it the same but make the text smaller. But yeah, hate version one, on my screen there is a whole lot of space between the players name and the right hand side of the column as well, just to add to it's ugliness. - Shudde ^talk 00:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think a standard template should be used, that the nationality thing is good if you're looking at the squad to see the makeup of it, but this should be distinct from the affiliated union. For instance, Tony Marsh is a New Zealander who played for France. Perhaps including both would be better, aligning it correctly, changing the colours to something in rugby union palette (so that it is distinct from the footy one) and getting rid of the two-letter non-standard abbreviations, replacing with standard positions as defined by the IRB. --Bob (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The nationality one is a bone of contention as seen here at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rugby_union#Feed_back_of_suggested_change. The soccer one seems as good a base of operations to start from were there to be a community desire to create a standard, or series of standards, ie club and international rugby.Londo06 17:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Version one fits the bill for club rugby, and I've gotta say I like version 3 for the international sides. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 13:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a fan of number two. Beyond that one both the others seem to do a job. No9shirt (talk) 17:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Adminship

User:Darwinek has nominated me for adminship. I would appreciate it if you guys would contribute to my evaluation, which can be found here. – PeeJay 05:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

2007-08 Sevens Series Infobox

Does anyone else think the infobox for the Sevens World Series is a bit clumsy? Its not just Dubai and South Africa who are the joint hosts. This template was designed for the rugby world cup, not the sevens world series. I don't know how to design these things, could someone design a new one? Andy4226uk (talk) 18:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

2008 Heinken Cup Final - please help

This was on the ITN section on the main page, but got taken down because of this comment. It's fair enough. Some prose needs to be added to 2007-08 Heineken Cup to satisfy this. Would anyone mind helping this along. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 03:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Surely the final deserves it's own page, in the same way the CL final has one. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 13:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Super 14 final's have their own pages, but no one has bothered for the Heineken Cup. Shudde ^talk 01:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

2008 Super 14 Final

The article 2008 Super 14 Final has been created, but will need to be substantially expanded once the game has been played in a few hours. I will not be able to update it for at least 24 hrs and was hoping some of you could get it going? If it gets updated, with a referenced and detailed prose section it should hopefully be eligible for the In the news front page section (as per Wikipedia:Sports on ITN). - Shudde ^talk 05:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

• The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
• The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
• A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 21:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Navboxes

Are their any objections to using {{Navboxes}} on articles such as Brian Carney (rugby footballer)‎ (example [14]) with many navboxes ? Gnevin (talk) 22:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is no need to collapse the navboxes.Londo06 22:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Too many navboxes look terrible, see the discussions here , here , here and hereGnevin (talk) 23:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree.Londo06 10:06, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that heaps of them look terrible. - Shudde ^talk 09:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the Brian Carney article was better with the navboxes as they were, not in a super-collapsed navbox. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 10:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Stellenbosch Laws to Experimental law variations

I think the article should be Stellenbosch Laws renamed Experimental law variations as the experimental law variations (or ELVs) seems be be by far the more common name now, and would move the article in line to the name used by the IRB. What does everyone think? - Shudde ^talk 08:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

We known them as ELVs in the northern hemisphere, having read the article a while ago I'm not sure how official the 'Stellenbosch Laws' is anyway. The counter argument would be the alternative would be a quite bizarre name for a wikipedia article for someone not familiar with rugby. The move makes sense to me. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 10:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Well the article name has not been taken by anything else, so it shouldn't be a problem. Just like any other wikipedia article, the first sentence explains what it's about anyway. I'm just mainly wondering how common the ELV name is, but seems like it's easily the most common. If anyway disagrees I'd like to know though. - Shudde ^talk 10:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I find that they are much more commonly refered to as ELVS and infact I have never heard of them being called the Stellenbosch Laws. So I am very much for the article to be renamed.--MSR-Liverpool (talk) 22:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Certainly "ELVs" (and I love it when commentators pronounce it "elves") is more common than Stellenbosch Laws in the Australian media. Is there anywhere where they call them Stellenbosch Laws more often? The South African commentators in Super 14 matches broadcast from the Republic tend to say ELVs, too. --Stormie (talk) 11:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I think they used "Stellenbosch Laws" very early on in their conception because that is the place many of them were first trialled. The term ELV's has slowly taken over, and now seems like the most common term. I think I'll go ahead and move the page, but was just checking with everyone before I did so. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 11:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Featured article nomination

I have nominated History of rugby union matches between All Blacks and France for Featured Article status and would appreciated any comments. You can comment on the article here. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 08:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguated pages for players who have played both codes

Looking through a number of pages have been set to (rugby) alone, and to me this indicates that a players rugby union career was more important than his league career. Wondering if anyone had any thoughts on a possible way to incorporate a title that satisfies both codes.Londo06 14:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm probably guilty of this, but I'm going to reset my standards now. Players who play(ed) rugby union should be disambiguated as "rugby union player", players who play(ed) rugby league should be disambiguated as "rugby league player", and those who play(ed) both codes should be disambiguated as "rugby player". Obviously, as you should all know, disambiguation is not necessary when there is only one notable player by any given name. – PeeJay 15:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Since to a Northerner "rugby" can refer to either sport, I have no problem with (rugby) - no matter which sport (or indeed both) the person might have played.GordyB (talk) 16:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be the way in Yorkshire, myself being originally from the North-West I mostly heard it as rugby league. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 09:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry forgot to add that the initial message was posted verbatim at the counterpart rugby league project.Londo06 17:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd prefer (rugby) or (rugby player) because to me that doesn't then need a decision about whether a dual code player was primarily a league or union player - I've generally used (rugby player) myself for disambigs. But I'm happy to go along with the consensus and I'd be willing to make changes to reflect it.--Bcp67 (talk) 19:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Dual code players, whether primarily union or league, should be disambiguated as "rugby player", IMO. Anyone who played just the one code should be disambiguated by the code they played. – PeeJay 19:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

That is the standard disambiguation note for a union player, and as such would indicate his union career being more important than league. (rugby player) and (rugby league) appear to be the relevant suffixes for want of a better term. John Devereux (rugby) is an example of a player who came from union played most of his career in league in the UK and Australia, returned to union and now is involved in league. His article title would indicate to most that he play was a 15 a-side man. I think something should be found that acknowledges both codes.Londo06 19:51, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

"Rugby" does that sufficiently well. If people choose to believe that one form of rugby football is more notable than another, then more fool them. "Dual-code rugby player" could work as a disambiguator, even if it is a bit verbose. Still, my opinion is that "rugby" or "rugby player" would be enough. – PeeJay 22:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There is probably no reason to add league or union unless further disambiguation is necessary. Rugby is going to be acceptable in most cases, obviously if there is a league and union player of the same name then that would be different. - Shudde ^talk 23:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

To me just adding rugby after a player name indicates that he was a union player. How about rugby footballer? CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 09:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

To most people it would, except in a couple of places around the world, but adding union unless disambiguation is necessary seems redundant, but adding footballer seems redundant as well. - Shudde ^talk 09:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Being a Kiwi Shudde I thought you would have called it league. The Aussies have a clear divide between the two. I thought it was only Britain where there was a bit of ambiguity between the two names for the codes.Londo06 12:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

We do call it League, but in most countries people don't even know there are two codes of rugby, and generally they are thinking of union. I'm just saying unless necessary, we don't need to specify which code of rugby the person plays. If it's not causing confusion with another article/player, then who cares what people put in the brackets after the name. - Shudde ^talk 12:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I can understand where you're coming from, there are only a smattering of nations who play either code. But in England and definitely Australia they are definitely seen as two separate meanings at all times. I also find it a little offensive to say "they are thinking of union" In England league is a more viewed domestic game, but union has more international viewers, in Australia 73 out of the top 100 TV ratings were NRL, only the Super 14 final reached the top 100. I think it is a case of finding a compromise rather than saying one over the other.Londo06 14:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm implying it's the most widely played. The United States would be an example I'm thinking of. It wasn't mean't to cause offence; but simply that outside of Australia and England, the union identifier isn't really used as often. This is getting off the point though. - Shudde ^talk 05:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I know it is only a minor occurrence with dual code players being disambiguated; is there any consensus here towards one position or any suggestions. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 14:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

(rugby footballer) is one that a number of people agree upon over at the league community. Any thoughts?  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  14:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

(rugby footballer) is a fair comment, works on both sides, definitely the one for me.Londo06 16:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

(rugby dual code) seems to be the agreed format over at the rugby league wikiproject. Any objections or further offerings would be welcomed.  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  17:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It absolutely is not agreed on and you know it. What Peejay said above is absolutely right. Rugby has two codes. Using "(rugby dual code)" is stating the obvious.--Jeff79 (talk) 19:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Cool looks like there is consensus here for (rugby dual code) as well.Londo06 12:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that "rugby dual code" is poor wording. Even "dual code rugby" would be better. – PeeJay 12:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Very cute Londo. I find your idea of consensus fascinating.--Jeff79 (talk) 12:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to go with (dual code rugby) to stop reversions after we agreed the standard set elsewhere with (rugby dual code). I think it comes from having rugby at the front of the wording.  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  00:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

No change in the standard "(rugby)" has been agreed to. Not only is it the shortest and simplest title which sufficiently disambiguates articles from others of the same name, but it's also consistent with wikipedia's established stance on the word as outlined here. I continue to wait for a logical argument as to why the words "dual code" are needed. Fact: rugby football has two codes: union and league.--Jeff79 (talk) 03:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

See all of the above.  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  20:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What? You mean like this?

• "...those who play(ed) both codes should be disambiguated as "rugby player"."
• "Since to a Northerner "rugby" can refer to either sport, I have no problem with (rugby)..."
• "Personally I'd prefer (rugby) or (rugby player)..."
• "Dual code players, whether primarily union or league, should be disambiguated as "rugby player", IMO."
• ""Rugby" does that sufficiently well. If people choose to believe that one form of rugby football is more notable than another, then more fool them."
• "Still, my opinion is that "rugby" or "rugby player" would be enough."
• "Rugby is going to be acceptable in most cases..."

Anyway, people can vote on the matter now if they like at Talk:David Watkins (rugby), Talk:Andrew Walker (rugby) and Talk:Paul Moriarty (rugby)‎.--Jeff79 (talk) 04:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

You've lost me completely, I don't know where those quotes have come from.  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  07:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

They're from this discussion. – PeeJay 07:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Cheers PeeJay. I thought he was saying they were all attributed to me. Thinking I don't remember writing that.  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  07:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Sevens category

I have created Category:Rugby sevens footballers, but will leave it to people with more than a passing interest in the sport to fully populate it, subdivide it, etc. --Helenalex (talk) 01:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Incorrectly tagged articles

I thought I'd post this here rather then the Assessment Dept. There seem to be quite a few incorrectly tagged articles. The most obvious are articles listed as Featured Articles, please see Category:FA-Class rugby union articles. Anyway I'm going to go and fix them now, but if people could keep an eye out for mistakes like that it would be great. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 05:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

One Stop Shop Listing Test Players

A year ago or so I was using this site http://statistics.scrum.com which I recall offered complete player listings back through time for all RU Tests between the major playing nations. Maybe I was dreaming. But it seems to have been decommissioned for some time now. Does anyone know of a similar one-stop comprehensive site ? -Sticks66 11:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Scrum.com still has a site, http://www.scrum.com/1200_41681.php is now the place to go. The French wikipedia has a pretty comprehensive list as well, they've gone through a lot of the scrum.com profiles. - Shudde ^talk 11:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 1884 articles are assigned to this project, of which 186, or 9.9%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Stuck on Wallabies

With Wallaby on-line records so poor I'm stuck for detail on 4 x dual-code intnls. Can anyone tell me (or direct me to source) when following Wallabies debuted (what match and where) - Stephen Knight (1969), Geoff Richardson 1971, Ray Price, 1975, Michael O'Connor, 1979. -Sticks66 12:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

Is it about time to archive some of this material? CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 14:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely yes! --necronudist (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

New infobox in use over at rugby league

New infobox in use over at the rugby league community as seen at Adrian Lam, Jeff Robson and a few others. Just thought it may be of interest to you's guys, with goal kicking racking up a number of points for your players as well.Fronsdorf (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I love these infoboxes, as I've been doing quite a bit of work on the early Welsh internationals, and due to the points being so different back then it makes the old boys look poor compared to their modern counterparts. I'll give it a try on my next few articles.FruitMonkey (talk) 20:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I would hold fire if anyone is thinking of creating a template over here, as over at the league community it seems to have taken us a while to get the format agreed, and even then there is another template still going around. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest anyone thinking about looking at implemementing this infobox look through at the counterpart WikiProject as there are issues, many that largely track back to geography that wouldn't really be much of an issue here, but it still looks like the way forward.Londo06 16:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Tour naming convention

Following on from something I wrote on a talk page earlier, does anyone have any views about a convention for including the words "rugby union" in tour article articles. For example, should we rename 1977 British Lions tour to New Zealand as 1977 British Lions rugby union tour to New Zealand? Any comments?--Bcp67 (talk) 20:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The British and Irish rugby league side is known as Great Britain.Londo06 20:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we need to come to an agreement about tour names, then place the dead links using the correct tour names on a page for us to pick off. All tours are notable, so we need to construct the pages, I'd just like to get the names right first time around.FruitMonkey (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Dual-code internationals

Have just posted this article Dual-code rugby internationals which I've been working on a wee while. Some obvious gaps on the tables which should hopefully resolve themselves but a less obvious issue could do with some help some from the Project: I believe there've actually been 37 New Zealand DCIs which means I'm missing 26. Any name suggestions appreciated, just drop on my talk-page. -Sticks66 12:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Nice work sticks, it looks really good, and should help others link their work together. Also if any one knows of the line up for the All Golds vs Wales in 1908 at Aberdare, that would be really appreciated. FruitMonkey (talk) 13:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Outstanding work - I'll see if I can add anything to the English listt --Bcp67 (talk) 05:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

1927–28 Australian tour

I could do with some advice from someone who knows about the history of Australian RU. An article has been created 1927-1928 Wallaby Grand Slam tour - all my sources state that this was exclusively undertaken by N.S.W. players (I think maybe due to a dispute with professionalism in Queensland) and is always referred to as the Waratahs tour. Can anyone assist?--Bcp67 (talk) 05:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm unsure about the make up of the team, but I'm still not getting the naming of tours to the Northern hemisphere being called Grand Slam tours. Is this what the Southern hemisphere call these tours, because I've never heard the term before? FruitMonkey (talk) 05:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Me neither - anyone from the SH like to comment? I think at the very least there should be some mention of the words rugby union in the title. I accept that British Lions and All Blacks should be familiar enough to non RU followers, but a "Wallaby Grand Slam tour" - could be anything!!--Bcp67 (talk) 06:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll be able to contribute some details on the touring party. As to the title, my understanding is that we refer to such tours as Grand Slams when Tests against all five nations are won by Aust (otherwise it's just a Tour!!) Doesn't look to me like 1927-28 was a Grand Slam. -Sticks66 06:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

For an SH nation, a Grand Slam tour is when they play and beat all four Home Nations. – PeeJay 06:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That's certainly how I have always understood it - e.g. the 1978 All Blacks tour. I can't see the rationale for any other sort of tour being described as "Grand Slam". --Bcp67 (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It was a fully NSW side (other than the inclusion of Tom Lawton Snr) because the Qld RU collpased in 1919 and didn't re-appear till 1929. They played as Waratahs . I have some sources that I can use to expand the article, but I'm not happy calling it a Grand Slam tour. Any views ? How about 1927-28 Waratahs tour of Britain and France -Sticks66 12:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

For sure, it's not a "Grand Slam" tour if they lost to Scotland and England. --Stormie (talk) 04:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'd like to see the words "rugby union" in the title but I'll go with the views of people know the subject better than I do. Definitely not a "Grand Slam" tour anyway. --Bcp67 (talk) 07:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

List of All Black Tests in New Zealand

What looks like a series of anonymous contributors has created this article out of a number which were proposed for deletion (AB tests at Eden Park etc). Seems more sensible to me for the article to list all All Black tests, rather than just those played at home - only tells half the story, really. Any thoughts?--Bcp67 (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

They should all be deleted and replaced with a List of All Blacks Test matches. This is just splitting articles where no split is needed. That's why I prodded all of the original articles to begin with. – PeeJay 20:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Support. One list, all Tests, home & away -Sticks66 14:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Support as well - has to be a single list for all tests but would prefer to see the current list moved and expanded rather than deleted.--Bcp67 (talk) 19:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• This article has been renamed to List of All Black Test matches despite the fact that at present it is clearly NOT a List of All Black Test Matches, it is only a list of those played in New Zealand. Does anyone have the resources necessary to expand it into a full List of All Black Test Matches? --Stormie (talk) 22:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I moved it back to List of All Black Test matches in accordance with the discussion above. I don't personally have the time to expand it so maybe I'm not in the strongest position to argue the case further for it staying where it is.--Bcp67 (talk) 06:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

FYI

Mates, I don't know anything about Rugby, being American and all, but I just rescued an article from speedy deletion about Kai Horstmann who plays for the Worcester Warriors. Probably notable, but for you to decide. I tagged his talk with your wikiproject, just an FYI. Added a couple of lines to the article, hope I didn't botch it too bad. :-) Cheers, Keeper ǀ 76 17:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Names or initials?

Looking through a few British Lions tours articles which I've been involved with, I'm struck that some of the squad lists style the players by name (e.g. Gareth Edwards) and others by initials (e.g. G. O. Edwards). Most of the reference books I've used have tended to go for initials, but I'd be interested if anyone has some thoughts which we could use to set up a convention for the project. Thanks.--Bcp67 (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I find the initials kind of quaint and formal and whilst that fits with articles about tours from the 1930s and earlier I'm not sure that it's user friendly and right for lists from more recent years. Running one's cursor over the initals to check the full name is of course only available when a name is linked and certainly as far as Aust players, there is a long, long way to go before a material proportion of players (rep or otherwise) have articles. I'm all for Christian Name and Surname. -Sticks66 11:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. I'm going to change the format to full name for the post-war Lions tour articles, it does make it easier to see who the players actually are.--Bcp67 (talk) 06:52, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Concerns about ignoring of naming conventions raised at WT:NCP#Sports "revolt"

See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people)#Sports "revolt". Numerous WP:SPORTS child-projects are pretending that the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) guidelines don't exist. Needs to be resolved one way or the other. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Standardisation Of English Club Names

While editing many low league clubs I have noticed that there is poor standardisation with respect to naming. for example clubs are given the following:-

• R.U.F.C.
• RFC
• Rugby Club
• Rugby Union Club
• Rugby Football Club
• Rugby Union Football Club
• etc.

It would make more sense if there was a standardised method. As all rugby clubs do have different names for example one club's official name may end Rugby Football Club where as anothers may be Rugby Union Football Club.

I suggest writing the clubs full name as a pose to initials e.g

Nottingham Rugby Football Club as a pose To Nottingham R.F.C.

Any suggestions and or discussion welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrgilly (talk • contribs) 13:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not just leave them as they are? What is it with people on this site and everything having to be standardised?! If a club is more commonly known as "XXX Rugby Football Club" than as "XXX RFC", then the article should be called "XXX Rugby Football Club". – PeeJay 16:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I kind of agree with PeeJay, if we were to rename all the clubs to the full name then that would mean changing some 500-600 teams in the UK alone, not to mention the thousands of articles from players/stadiums/towns/managers/organisations that would then all be mis-linked. With the shortage of people we have to even create and refine the pages we already have, I for one would not have the heart to even think about going down the road suggested. (though all the Welsh clubs are all stadardised already; to themselves but to no other country it seems.) FruitMonkey (talk) 18:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Count me in agreement too. While standardisation is a nice goal, the amount of work involved would be prohibitive. Also, there will always be articles created by contributors who might be unware of the project or don't want to be involved with it and it's hard to impose standards. I can't see myself creating any new articles about clubs to be honest either. I've linked to a few club articles in creating articles about Lions tours, but you get used to which are "RFC", "RUFC" or even just plain "FC" for the really old ones.--Bcp67 (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

A lot of it comes down to historical issues; the really old clubs are FC (Football Club) as "football" didn't solely refer to Association football in Victorian times. Those clubs that predate the great schism of 1895 are RFC (Rugby Football Club) since there was no "rugby union" as such in those days. Those established post 1895 mostly adopted RUFC (Rugby Union Football Club) to disambiguate themselves from rugby league clubs who might also be FC or RFC. AFAIK RC (Rugby Club) is a very new designation adopted only by very new clubs. Quite a few clubs e.g. Bath have switched from FC to "Rugby" i.e. Bath Rugby as marketing themselves as "Bath Football Club" was likely to cause confusion. There shouldn't be any "standardisation", clubs should be given their correct title, Harlequins are "Harlequin FC" not "Harlequins RUFC".GordyB (talk) 21:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I read this issue as just being one of whether we use full names or initials, e.g "Rugby Football Club" or "RFC". I'm still not in favour for standardisation for practical reasons.--Bcp67 (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer the full name in the article title but the abbreviated form elsewhere.GordyB (talk) 12:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The full name would appear to be the best way to go, however elsewhere you seem to have F.C. set as the standard for association football teams. Fronsdorf (talk) 13:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting changing any of the current names just what format would be best for creating new articles i.e the full name or the initials. and if initials are to be used should dots be placed between them. Sorry thats probly my fault for not being clear. I just wanted to ensure that any articles i created were how people wanted to see them. Jrgilly (talk • contribs) 13:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

What is the correct naming policy at present?

I've just had a newly created page renamed from Harold Davies (rugby player) to Harold Davies (rugby union), with the tag line 'as per Wikipedia standards'. I'm not too fussed about naming conventions, but I must have created about 30-40 pages of rugby union players tagged with (rugby player), and would rather have been corrected earlier. Could someone state what the standard presently is? As normally if a name is already attributed league or union, I just add (rugby player) if they played for both codes I use (rugby) and for those of the same name within rugby I use (rugby playe born in ....). Help. FruitMonkey (talk) 21:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

You were correct with your original naming of the article. Unless there is another Harold Davies who played rugby league, Harold Davies (rugby player) should be fine. – PeeJay 21:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks PeeJay FruitMonkey (talk) 21:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason for the move is that there is a user out there that is moving dual code players to rugby and it really throws up issues with distinguishing what a player is, with rugby, rugby player, etc being the suffixes. Alexsanderson83 11:27, 14 September 2008 (UTC)