Talk:Francis Bacon (artist)

Was he gay?

I wouldn't usually care about a person's sexual orientation, but being someone unfamiliar with the artist and reading through the article, it seems contributors and literature have been very implicit towards this topic to the point of refusing to approach it in a straightforward manner or trying to hide the fact. But this only serves to create a lot of ambiguity and confusion, even if no one knows for sure this should be made clear? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.15.74.154 (talk) 10:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

What movement was Bacon really a part of?

In "The Colony Room" section, the sentence that David Sylvester was wrong in..."but had erroneously perceived it to be a form of Expressionism" needs to be cited. The MoMA, where Painting is located, refers to Bacon as a Post-War Expressionist.* In this article, he is cited as a figurative painter, which doesn't describe his work well enough. Searching around, too, he is repeatedly referred to as either an Abstract Expressionist or a Post-War Expressionist.

• Here is the PDF from the MoMA:

http://www.moma.org/about_moma/press/2004/P_S_Main.pdf

Jeni Mc 16:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Francis Bacon should definitely not be listed as a "figurative" painter. In his interviews with David Sylvester, "The Brutality of Fact: Interviews with Francis Bacon 1962-1979" (New York: Thames and Hudson, 1987), he is quite critical of figurative art. Figurative art is representational art. Bacon is not a representational artist. The difference between figural and figurative is brought out by Jean-François Lyotard in his "Libidinal Economy" as well as in Gilles Deleuze's book on Bacon, "Francis Bacon: The Logic of Sensation." Figurative relates to narrative. Bacon's art does not seek to tell a story or narrate. He is a figural artist or an abstract artist, but not a figurative one. Lemomo (talk) 18:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Bacon defined himself as a figurative painter in the 1985 South Bank Show special (at about 6.30 in this clip). Nic Dafis (talk) 12:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

A note on title/date forms

I have used the title form

Painting. 1946

throughout. This is preferable to

Painting (1946)

since (although not part of the title) the date is crucial in distinguishing it from

Painting. 1950

for instance, and is not a mere adjunct.

Painting, 1946

is wrong as the title is "Painting". The forms

Painting, 1946

and

Painting 1946

are also correct but less clear. If applied it should be done throughout the article to avoid confusion. -- User:82.43.154.23 03:21, 27 September 2005

Well I agree that the style should be consistent. I suspect that it isn't something that is covered by the Manual of Style yet. In general I prefer the second form, however, it is a subject that is better discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts, since this would apply to many arts related articles. -- Solipsist 08:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

The second form seems to be the 'house style' here. I would argue for a special case to be allowed for the MoMA painting, which is spoken of as "Painting 1946" even though the title is "Painting". I propose that the last form, which is that of the 1964 catalogue raisonné, be used in this case. 82.43.154.23 13:46, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

On reflection, I have brought Painting (1946) into conformity with the rest of the article. 82.43.154.23 12:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

There could well be a case for making an exception for some paintings with generic names. It can be particularly tricky to identify the work of some modern artists who steadfastly refuse to title their work anything other than 'untitled' — especially when they are likely to have done several 'untitled's in the same year. I often see Roman numerals being applied in such cases, for example

Untitled IX (1992), oil on canvas.

but I have never been sure whether its the artist or the gallery who added the Roman numerals.

Similar problems occur with many medieval canvases where several titles might apply (most of them derived from different sources at much later dates). In those cases the size of the painting is also usually used to help identify a specific painting.

My impression is that the most common long format when refering to works of art is;

Artist, Title, (date) width x height, medium, collection.

but you still see plenty of variations. -- Solipsist 15:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Title

When I entered Francis Bacon in Wiki search, only the 17thC. philosopher came up - needs disambiguation.--shtove 23:24, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmm

I think the Biographical detail is fantastic, but it abruptly stops in the early 50's, and I don't think that someone learning about Bacon for the first time would want to wade through the words that lead up to influences...he was an artist...and there is little discussion of technique... User:Gareth E Kegg 22:49, 19 October 2005

Thank-you for my share of the compliment, but I have only been revising this article since 21/9/05. I do plan to go on into the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, and summarize the 1980s and 1990s as well; I plan to have a section on his technique, one on the interviews with Sylvester, and a separate article on the estate. Please do go ahead and start any of these you are able and willing to. The point is well made about a neopyhte coming to this article, but, a few pictures of major works, of Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion and Painting (1946) in particular, would help. Copyright is with the Estate but may be judged 'fair use' in this context(?). The 'Contents' near the top of the article allows anyone to skip the earlier sections without the need to wade.(82.43.154.23 01:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC))

At some point in the early/mid 50s, Bacon bought a house in Queen's Road in the village of Wivenhoe, Essex. I recall Nicholas Butler writing about this in his book, "The Story of Wivenhoe", but unfortunately my copy has gone walkabout. Does anyone have further details? Daen 15:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I found it - it was a one-line reference from the Wivenhoe Town Council guide to the village from 1993, not Nick Butler. Wirth-Miller lived in the village in the early 50s, and Bacon spent time in a "holiday cottage" in Queen's Road. Daen 13:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I was surprised there was no mention of Bacon's homosexuality, save an oblique reference in a footnote, in this article. Perhaps this would be an appropriate area to expand upon, at least in passing in the painter's basic history.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Catachrestic (talk • contribs) 00:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC).

There is a mention of his relationship with George Dyer in the "Later Life" section. Jeni Mc 15:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Feature article?

I think this is a great article. Though "Bacon's legacy" could be expanded... Selfinformation 17:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Theres one thing as too much info and optimal infomation, after a quick review i find the article to be a little indulgent and giving perhaps too much info that is not properly placed or ordered. Certainly not optimal information me thinks.

Restructure

I'd like to move the discussion of specific painting to dedicated articles, leaving this page for purely biographical info. I think this is a great article as is, but perhalps could be expanded into an excellent FB category. --Coil00 23:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Question about grammar in intro paragraph

He also created "an" portrait of Michele Leiris? Surely this is incorrect, or is there some obscure "an" rule I am overlooking?

"Anglo-Irish"

I object to the term Anglo-Irish being used in the opening paragraph.By that logic Oasis and most members of the Beatles should be classified as Hiberno-Saxon. Ireland has suffered enough devision and fragmenation.A note in the biographical section stating that Bacon was of English parentage should suffice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.101.222.28 (talk) 21:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

I think its fine, by every definition of the term Bacon was Anglo-Irish. He was born in Dublin to Protestant English parents who often travelled back and forth between the two islands. The term is widely used, and not in the least derogatory. Ceoil 19:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's call him British and everybody will be happy on the other side of the island!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.15.81 (talk) 21:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• The trouble is Anglo-Irish has an established meaning whichy fits Bacon very well, whereas Hiberno-Saxon has one which doesn't fit Oasis in the slightest. In this section, & the one below there is a clear concensus to restore something on what he regarded as his identity, so I will put "British" back. Johnbod (talk) 20:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest that Hiberno-British is a viable category in cases where we want to say that a person is more Irish than British. But Bacon's circumstances seem to indicate the Anglo-Irish term more fitting. Even then, in his case this may give away too much to Irishness, so perhaps the most accurate description is the more cumbersome: 'English painter born in Ireland'. Or if that cuts out too much Irishness, then: 'English painter born and largely raised in Ireland'. Note also that to call him an 'Irish born British painter' subsumes his Englishness! What is certain is that the reference to him as an 'Irish' painter in the disambiguation section is obviously wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.129.67.165 (talk) 10:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

"Being Irish"

The article indicates that Bacon was born to English parents, but then states later that Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare, was the birthplace of both parents. Unless I misread it, the article supports the theory that someone born in one country of parents, both of whom were born in that same country is actually partially of a different country. Does the writer know how far back one has to go into Bacon's family history to actually find someone born in England?

I think they'll try to do that soon!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.15.81 (talk) 21:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

From my reading of Bacon's bigraphies he considered himself British, so why not just call him that? "Irish born Briton" perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.203.152 (talk) 14:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC) The fact that his parents were English and he spent his childhood and early teens between the two countries indicates that it would be mistaken to say that he is Irish in the way that someone who was born in Ireland of Irish parents and remained in Ireland could be. The distinction is emphasised by the fact that he chose to live in England from his late teens till the end of his life. The most accurate description would be that he was English and born in Ireland, although the more general specification of 'Anglo-Irish' would perhaps be fairer to both inheritances. Bacon's case is clearly distinct from the case of Oasis given that they are English and choose to live in England despite their preferring to call themselves Irish. Choice is perhaps the most precise indicator of personal identity. Nonetheless, the Hiberno-English epithet may well be an entirely suitable term for them. Or English with Irish parents, although this may be unacceptable so 'Irish musicians with Irish parents born in England and spent entire lives in England' might be more suitable? Note that the difference between 'Hiberno-English' and 'Anglo-Irish' is that as with that term it indicates primacy of influence to the former culture, so we have a new point of contest.194.129.67.166 (talk) 16:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Irish born British" or "Anglo-Irish" would both do - it should not be left as it is. Johnbod (talk) 20:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Should The President of Ireland or Bobby Sands having been born in Northern Ireland be considered Anglo-Irish? Or a British born Irish? I think the legal status defines the nationality, not the birthplace. What passport did Bacon travel on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.203.169.106 (talk) 10:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, i.e. follow what reliable sources say: don't try to work it out yourself. Ty 12:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Until very recently, the Irish constitution began "The territory of the Republic is the whole island of Ireland" and those born in Northern Ireland have always qualified automatically for Irish passports, and still do. Johnbod (talk) 13:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think where someone is born is sufficient to determine their national identity. If either Bacon or his parents were born in Ireland that doesn't automatically make them or anyone else Irish. Oasis's somewhat unlikely claim that they are in fact Irish is not undermined by the fact that they were born in England, it is undermined by the fact that they are so obviously parochially Mancunian. Legal status is also inadequate as a criterion as this could hinge on a number of factors.194.129.67.165 (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If a person is born in Ireland and their parents were also born in Ireland, they are Irish. I do not think there is anything ambiguous about this. The fact that going back farther his family were of British descent is already reflected by his surname. To belabour this point, the anglo saxons came from Germany, so should we call him German British Irish? Actually humans are thought to have originated in Africa, so maybe we should include that also if we are to retrace everyones family tree. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

They are "Irish-born", which we say. You may know the Duke of Wellington's comment on his similar situation. Johnbod (talk) 10:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Roughly how many generations of a family have to be born in a country for them to be considered of that nationality? Should we dig through the rest of Wikipedia and change the nationality of every famous British person who does not have a British surname? The opening paragraph details his upbringing and how much time he spent in various countries. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

There are long established guidelines on how people's national identities are described. The key thing is how they identified themselves, and there appears to be no evidence Bacon regarded himself as Irish. Equally Henry Kissinger is not German, but German-born. And so on. See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies). Johnbod (talk) 10:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Has anybody got any sources on this? Ty 10:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

"English painter, born in Dublin." from Oxford Art Online (subscription required or membership of a subscribing public library). Ty 10:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Getty Union Name List has "English painter" too [1] Johnbod (talk) 10:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Many Irish artists left the country and did not like the place, that does not make them any less Irish. Sean O'Casey is a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_O%27Casey#England

Oscar Wilde had a very similar background to Bacon and is undisputed as being Irish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_wilde

147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it is quite a reasonable arguement that considering he was born in Ireland to parents who were also born in Ireland but of English descent, and he lived there until age 16, that the article should state that he is Irish. The burden of proof is on those who claim that spending most of your life in another country changes your nationality. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It is worthwhile noting that his British born Grandparents also lived in Ireland. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to contribute to wikipedia, you have to follow wikipedia policies, which do not allow personal opinion and deduction. You have to find a reliable source to validate content. There are two sources above specifically for Bacon. Find something as valid that differs; then we can move forward in the discussion. Otherwise, we go by the sources we have. Ty 10:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, here you go. http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:O_tKnSIrE-8J:www.artnet.com/artist/1799/francis-bacon.html+francis+bacon+irish&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk and http://www.hughlane.ie/francis_bacons_studio.php?type=Bacon%92s+Youth&heading=Bacon%92s+Life&rsno=2 and http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:kUIg3FVjaZ8J:20thcenturyart.suite101.com/article.cfm/francis_bacon_painter+francis+bacon+irish&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=uk. So we have the fact that he was born in Ireland, lived there for sixteen years, his parents were Irish, and his British grandparents lived in Ireland, and a link describing him as an Irish painter. On the other side, we have the fact that he lived in Britain for most of his life, and a witty line from the Duke of Wellington to make him British. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 11:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Neither of the websiters calling him Irish are very authoritative compared to Getty and Oxford, and the Hugh Lane Gallery notably refrains from calling him Irish, and calls his parents English. Hugh Lane himself is an interesting comparison - brought up & living his adult life in England, but identifying as Irish, which is what we call him. Johnbod (talk) 11:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain to me how this case differs from Oscar Wilde? Should WB Yeats be classified as British also considering he is of English descent, and lived for a while in London? Oxford could be accused as being a biased party being a British University. It appears that you refuse to consider any of the facts given. His birth in Ireland and youth spent there should be enough. Then you ask for links, they have been provided, then you claim that he did not feel Irish, what is this based upon?

Sting, for example, claims to be a citizen of the world. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=active&q=sting+%22citizen+of+the+world%22&meta= but I note on Wikipedia he is listed as English. This is probably because he was born in England. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 12:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You have to be accurate to sources. Lane does not say he was Irish. We know he was born in Ireland: that is not at issue. Questions about other people won't help here. We're not dealing with them. You need something more reliable than artnet. "His birth in Ireland and youth spent there should be enough." No, that's just an opinion. Find the references. Ty 12:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Earlier I edited the article to state that he was Irish, but lived most of his life in the UK, where he did most of his painting. Do you not think that is a more accurate description than what is currently on the article. It seems that other than providing a link (which I dispute) that says he is British, you have not put forth any reasonable arguement for his Britishness. Based on what is he British?

Above it is argued that Oasis, who are British born, but of Irish descent, but who have said in interviews that they are Irish, remain British. (For the record I agree that they are British) 147.114.226.173 (talk) 12:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think Anglo-Irish would be a useful term to introduce, but concensus was against this above. Johnbod (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict - I was replying to 147.114.226.173) Wikipedia is not edited by argument, but by sources. Find what they say: that's the only thing that counts. Reference work Artists in Britain since 1945 just says "born in Dublish of English parents". Tate gallery says the same. The New York Times calls him British[2] - see 2 extracts in the "Highlights from the archive" section. Adrian Searle in The Guardian calls him "famous British painter.[3] Ty 13:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You are standing on shaky grounds my friend, when you have to point out that you are avoiding the use of logic and argument. I have provided links that refer to him as Irish, and it is not in dispute that he was born and raised in Ireland, but did have British grandparents. He is as British as the Elgin Marbles are. I think this article should be flagged stating that the facts are disputed and maybe a moderator should step in.147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian article you linked to states. "Francis Bacon, the Irish-born painter whose abstract images of psychological and physical brutality made him one of the most exalted, and most disliked artists of the postwar era" At no point in the piece does it call him British. Here is a link to a Telegraph article that refers to Oscar Wilde as a "Great British Wit" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566243/Oscar-Wilde-voted-greatest-British-wit.html Oscar was born in Dublin, much like Francis Bacon, and even though the british may wish to claim them, both are still Irish. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Guardian article paragraph 10: "Protestant Irish-born 99 years ago, Bacon grew to be the most famous British painter of the latter half of the 20th century." Ty 13:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY is what counts here. Find reliable sources. Lane only says: "Francis Bacon was born at 63 Lower Baggot Street, Dublin on 28 October 1909, of English parentage". That leaves artnet. Ty 13:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, here you go. http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Bacon,+Francis+(painter)

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2008/0207/baconf.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Is_the_Devil:_Study_for_a_Portrait_of_Francis_Bacon

http://www.thecnj.com/review/2008/100208/feature100208_01.html

http://www.theartwolf.com/self-portraits/bacon-self-portrait.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/10/art

How many more do you need? Note that the last article makes the same mistake as you and refers to him as British once, but Irish about five times. Its also nice to see one of his friends saying "He was very gracious and kind, that was one of his Irish qualities."

What do we do now, should we correct this article? 147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what to make of the last one, where a close friend describes him as "best of British". Nice piece though. RTE think he is Irish, but the rest are not authoritative in any sense. Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

So using arguement and logic (which I know you guys like to disregard), he is clearly Irish, or at least as Irish as Oscar Wilde. There are numerous articles describing him as an Irish Painter, and a friend talks about his Irish qualities (In a British Newspaper). The Irish national Broadcaster (RTE) describes him as Irish. On the other hand he did live most of his life in London. I propose that the wording is changed to

- Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish- born figurative painter, who lived in the UK from the age of 16. He was a collateral descendant of the Elizabethan philosopher Francis Bacon. His artwork is known for its bold, austere, and often grotesque or nightmarish imagery. -

After that the article picks up describing his ancestory, youth and where he lived during his life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.175 (talk) 15:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't be sarcastic. It's not appreciated round here. What we actually have is a conflict of sources, some saying he is British and others Irish. When that occurs, we do not choose, but represent both viewpoints with the appropriate reference(s) given, and let the reader decide for themselves. What is not in dispute, I believe, is that he had English parents and was born in Ireland, so that should be stated, and the difference over nationality explained. What passport did he have? That surely is his nationality. Ty 15:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Let us be clear. The article states that Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare(Which is in Ireland), was the birthplace of both parents. His grandparents were British born.

On the topic of sarcasm, it would appear that facts are what are not appreciated around here. I am the last in a long line of people who have made this point, most of whom have been chased away by people who have more time to revert the article to their point of view than the objectors.147.114.226.175 (talk) 15:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You are in a sense correct. A core non-negotiable policy is WP:V (emphasis in the original):

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Anyone who doesn't respect this policy is not going to get on well here. As I keep on saying, we go by what reliable sources say, not what we have worked out ourselves as being right. Ty 15:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Fortunately I have provided a series of reliable sources. There is a long history of Irish people being mistakenly refered to as British. The Oscar Wilde Telegraph article above is a good example. The Irish band U2 are often mistakenly refered to as British also. Just because people can find articles that mistakenly think that Republic of Ireland is part of Britain, does not mean that its citizens should be refered to as British. It is clear that the sources you link to are making this mistake, by the underlying fact that Bacon was actually born in Ireland. Canadians are often mistakenly identified as Americans, and New Zealanders mistakenly identified as Australian. The giveaway is if the subject is also refered to as born and raised in Toronto or Aukland. There is nothing confusing here about Bacons nationality. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 16:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That form of interpretation of sources is expressly forbidden on wikipedia per WP:NOR. It would help if you read the editing policies and understand them if you want to engage in complex editing debates. Also, it does not follow necessarily that someone born in country assumes that nationality. Ty 16:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

PS You might like to get a user name to avoid any possible complication with (presumably) your employer, whose address you are editing from. Ty 17:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

From Michael Peppiatt's (definative) bio: "Both parents were English by origion and had no Irish blood. Eddy [Bacon's father] was born in...South Australia to an English father [of Welsh extraction] and an Austrialian mother." Bacon had a complicated relationshiop with Ireland (speaking as a Paddy myself); while he never revisited or had any inkling to revisit, he put down some of his more rogueish personality traits to his Irish upbringing, but in an off hand way. He spoke of having an "Irish fear of death", although who knows what that means, and his habit of drinking and gambling heavily he credited to the Irish influence on his personality. And that is as far as it went, as recorded by published crediable sources. His father started out in the British army, and served in Irl before he fought in the Boer war, and later in the pubs of Newcastle. Bacon sr. moved back to Ireland only because he had good memories of killing foxes there and because it would cost "considerably less to set himself up" here than in England. Hmm, small wonder that the family was subject to a lot of intimidation during the troubles of the time. Ceoil ^sláinte 22:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Does the biog define Bacon as being Irish or English/British? Ty 23:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen a bio define Bacon as anything other than an 'Englishman born in Ireland'. As I say he used his Irish birth to explain his 'bad' habits, and I would guess his 'hardness' came in part from, among many other factors, an English childhood in the enviroment of the Irish troubles. He seemed to like the Irish temprament and feckleness, and used it to cast himself as a rogue when it suited. The fact that he never revisited the country is more due to his complete break with his father and not wanting to re tread bad memories, I would say. David Sylvester prodded him extensively on his Irishness and what it meant to him, but Bacon was unwilling to share his thoughts byond the flippant. Bastard. Ceoil ^sláinte 08:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, his upbringing is covered in part Bragg's 1984(?) south bank show. If any non ips want to see it and have skpe and would like to see a drunken Bacon flirt with Melvin in the Tate and play footsie with him in the colony room; mail me. Ceoil ^sláinte 09:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Would it be agreeable to everyone to say that he was born in Ireland of English parents, and that he is described as Irish in some sources and British in others? Ty 23:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It should at least be "British in most, but Irish in some sources", though frankly I'm far from sure it is a move in the direction of accuracy. And his parents were actually (we say) born in Ireland, though no Irish sources seem keen to claim them .... Johnbod (talk) 01:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Well in that case, we come back to British artist born of English parents in Ireland with a footnote that says some sources describe him as Irish. Ty 07:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not just call him Anglo-Irish and be done with it? Peter morrell 07:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have suggested that at points above, but he doesn't really fit the term, as he was er, too English to be Anglo-Irish - his grandparents were English, not from old Ascendancy families. Johnbod (talk) 08:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It would to forbidden as original research as that is the one thing the sources don't call him. We don't make up our own interpretation. We follow sources per WP:VERIFY. Where sources differ, we cite the majority one per WP:NPOV, and mention the minority (unless it is tiny minority, in which case it is ignored). Ty 08:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the definition of Nationality http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=nationality the status of belonging to a particular nation by birth or naturalization. Any evidence of Bacon becoming a naturalized British citizen? Any information on what date he underwent this status change? I am sure it can be looked up. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 10:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not the way wiki works. It's synthesis. Kindly follow policy if you want to edit here. This is becoming tedious. We work from sources. Ty 10:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Bacon, born in any case before Irish independence, would automatically have qualified for both passports (as would anyone born in his circumstances today too). If the biographies do not mention it, where exactly do you think it could be "looked up"? What we say about him in WW2 "Bacon, unfit for active service, volunteered for Civil Defence and worked full-time in the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) rescue service..." suggests strongly he was a British citizen. I take it you are not (unlike Coeil) Irish yourself, or you would know this stuff. Johnbod (talk) 14:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not see what is tedious about defining nationality considering that is what is being discussed. You have provided nothing to show that Bacon was British. It seems to me that you wish to quote policies to avoid having to make any legitamite policies in the hope that people will be worn down by your bureaucracy.

Just to keep you busy here are another 5 links. I know that logic is to be avoided here, and you demand links, but when they are provided no change is made. Good luck with hiding the sun behing one finger.

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/irish-artists/francis-bacon.htm Francis Bacon (1909-1992) was an Irish figurative painter, influenced in his earlier years by Picasso

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-138482157.html Bringing home Bacon: the dark, twisted paintings of out Irish artist Francis Bacon hang in museums around the world, but it's the art he left at home that gets the attention in a fascinating new book.(

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0500510342/francisbacon-20 Francis Bacon's Studio lovingly takes stock of the late Irish artist's stacked canvases

http://artmagazine.arcadja.com/2008/09/30/the-damned-francis-bacon-at-the-tate-gallery/#hide As a modern Caravaggio, the Irish Francis Bacon has become a true icon of the damned artist. The art of painting, according to the Irish artist, now free and not forced to do reportages

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/30/bacon.art Such was the context of Bacon's most famous paintings, the Popes, for - especially to an Irishman of Bacon's generation - the Pope, not the king or any prime minister or even a dictator's chief of police, is the ultimate authority figure.

147.114.226.175 (talk) 11:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

A quick glance through the Peppiatt book brings me to page 163 of the paperback issue, where it states "he deliberately cast himself as an inspired misfit from the wilds of an Irish stud farm. I am digging through to see if at any other place he views himself as Northern Irish, Scottish Welsh or English 147.114.226.175 (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The Peppiatt book again. Pages 28 - 29 of the paperback edition. Bacon speaks of his first time in Berlin and the Caberets he visited and the freedom and directness with which homosexuality was treated. He says " I had never seen anything like it, of course , having been brought up in Ireland, and it excited me enormously.

It is clear from the pieces that I have posted both today and on Friday that 1) he was born in Ireland. 2) he liked to be viewed as being from the wilds of an Irish stud farm, he claimed to have been brought up in Ireland, and a friend commented upon his Irish nature. I do not wish to start using logic here, but do the protectors of this article have any evidence of his Britishness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.173 (talk) 12:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice piece here in the Independent. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/inside-the-mind-of-francis-bacon-446120.html The Irish figurative painter, known for his austere and sometimes nightmarish imagery —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.173 (talk) 12:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to flog a dead horse, but William Vaughans Encyclopedia of Artists ISBN-10: 0195215729 ISBN-13: 978-0195215724 lists Francis Bacon as... You guessed it, Irish. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Finally I have here a Sotheby's London Auction catalogue dated June 30th 1977 selling lot number 466 Study for a Portrait oil on canvas 78 in. by 54 in. The Property of an lrish Artist Francis Bacon. So it appears that during his life he was put forth as an Irish Artist by Sotheby's 147.114.226.173 (talk) 13:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In which case why not amend the sentence to say "Bacon is classed by some writers as Irish [blah blah refs] and by others as British [blah blah refs]?" that we you are covered on both angles and have given the cites to back it al up. Peter morrell 13:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I am fairly new to wikipedia so do not know how to do this, but I think that maybe there should be a flag on the article stating that the facts of this article are in dispute, and directing people to the talk page until this dispute is resolved. Tyrenius seems reluctant to correct the wording of this article so maybe it should go to arbitration. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 14:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody owns and controls this article. Have reported the matter to an admin. Peter morrell 14:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

This article like all wiki articles has "protectors" to maintain its standard and prevent it being skewed against WP:NPOV.

Google searches for Francis Bacon bring up the following:

• "British artist" 8420 results[4]
• "Irish artist" 1960 results[5]
• "English artist" 1790 results[6]
• "Irish born" "British artist" 420 results[7]
• "Anglo-Irish artist" 25 results[8]

I'm not suggesting this is definitive, and google results can show a perpetuation of a falsity, but it is a starting point, and shows at least how he is most widely described, which is in line with what I have deduced from the conversation to date. It is certainly unacceptable and contrary to WP:NPOV to call him definitively "Irish", when so many sound sources call him "English" or "British". Here are some of them:

• "Irish born British" artcyclopedia[9]
• "Irish born British" Intute (University of Oxford and Manchester Metropolitan University)[10]
• "British figurative painter" Tate St Ives[11]
• "He has long been acknowledged as one of the greatest British painters of the 20th century" Joanna Pitman, The Times[12]
• "Francis Bacon. (British, 1909-1992)", Museum of Modern Art, New York[13]
• "Lucien Freud and Francis Bacon, the two giants of post-war British painting" The Economist [14]
• "British painter" Sarah Thornton, The Art Newspaper[15]
• "One of only two portraits of painter Francis Bacon by his friend and fellow British artist Lucian Freud" International Herald Tribune[16]
• Francis Bacon (British Artists), book title by Andrew Brighton, Princeton University Press[17]
• "British artist" results from The Daily Telegraph[18]
• "British painter" Britannica[19]
• "British painter" Getty Images[20]
• "Widely regarded as the best British painter since Turner" synopsis of The Gilded Gutter Life of Francis Bacon: The Authorized Biography by Daniel Farson. Waterstone's[21]
• "David Sylvester, who wrote of 'the most exciting and impressive first one-man show by an English painter since Francis Bacon in 1949'." (on Auerbach) Tate gallery.[22]
• "English painter, born in Dublin." from Oxford Art Online (subscription required)
• "English painter" Getty Union Name List[23]
• "Dubliners like to tell you that Francis Bacon, the foremost painter of his generation, was actually Irish, although it's a pretty tenuous claim to call him one of their own." Dublin (Lonely Planet City Guide), p.45, 6th revised edition.[24]

The facts are that he was born in Ireland to English parents. Rudyard Kipling was born in India to English parents, and is known as English, not Indian. Bacon should therefore be termed as English. However, British is the majority terminology and covers all eventualities, as Ireland was, at the time of Bacon's birth in 1909, part of Britain.

Ty 16:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

We have a lot of disputing sources, and it seems to me that what we need to do is come up with an opening sentance that is satisfactory to both sides of this arguement. Kipling frankly is not as good of an example as Oscar Wilde, as with Kipling there is a racial difference, and there is not a prominent biography in which Kipling refers to himself as Indian raised, and which claims he portrayed himself as being of India. Also the auction catalogue shows that during his life Bacon was put forth as Irish.

While Ireland was under invasion at the time of Bacons birth, irish people born at that time were not refered to as British, just as French people born during the German occupation during World War 2 are not put forth as Germans.

We do not seem to have a clear definition of nationality on Wikipedia, so I suggest that we side step it in the opening sentance and stick to the facts that we all agree with.

My suggestion is.

Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish-born figurative painter, who moved to England at the age of 16 where he lived for most of his productive life.

Frankly I would preferer Irish born and raised, but I will leave that out as a concession to your point of view, even though i do have a good source for that statement. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 07:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Protectors are NOT onwers and controllers who revert every sensible edit suggested by others. Or are they? The sentence previously suggested by me is perfectly adequate to cover the ambiguity of his blurred nationality. And cites can be added after Irish and British. If you are such a marvellous 'protector' then you should easily be capable of doing that! Peter morrell 07:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It would help your case to avoid sarcasm and flippancy. The original contested suggestion (which another editor rejected) was "Francis Bacon was an Irish painter" or words to that effect. It's clear that is not in line with wikipedia use of sources. I didn't bring up the notion of "protector", but if that's how it's seen, then I explained the reason. We are, hopefully, working towards a consensus that meets the sources. What previous suggestion exactly of yours? You've made several. I suggest:

Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish-born British figurative painter.

This is what we've got at the moment and it meets the sources. Other details should go in the main text, not the lead. The main text can go into his early life in more depth. Ty 07:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It does not meet all of the sources, it meets your sources. I am hoping that we can move towards a middle ground, or else just flag the article stating that the facts of the article are in dispute. This is not your article. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 07:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It meets sources that are major ones and more substantial than the ones provided for alternatives. It is wikipedia's article. I have not edited it previously to my knowledge, just as a point of fact. I only got involved in this issue, because a minority viewpoint was being advanced contrary to WP:NPOV. Ty 09:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

My previous suggestion was this: "why not amend the sentence to say "Bacon is classed by some writers as Irish [cite some refs] and by others as British [cite other refs]" that way we/you are covered on both angles and have given good cites to back it all up." Surely this is reasonable to most people? Numerous such cites have been given on this talk page. Sarcastic yes, flippant no. thanks Peter morrell 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

"British" is the majority viewpoint and should be used per WP:NPOV. It covers (at the time of his birth) Irish, English and Anglo-Irish. Those can be usefully given in a footnote, or else explored in the main text. Ty 09:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That sounds perfectly fine to me. thanks Peter morrell 09:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that most Irish people born under British occupation would disagree with you that they should be considered British. It is also clear from a quick search through Wikipedia, that no other Irish born people as of that time are clasified as being British. Anglo Irish has been suggested in the past as a replacement for British. Can we agree upon that. It would seem to encompass his Irish birth and upbringing along with his british heritage. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 09:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Grammar?

In the 3rd paragraph in the "London, Berlin, and Paris" section, it says:

"...One of the men was an ex-army friend of his father, another breeder of race-horses, named Harcourt-Smith. Bacon later claimed that his father had asked this friend to take him 'in-hand' and 'make a man of him'. Francis had a difficult relationship with his father, once admitting to be[ing] sexually attracted to him...."

This makes it sound as if Francis was sexually attracted to his own father (which I can understand would make the relationship difficult). Should it say, instead, that he was attracted to Harcourt-Smith? Z Wylld 20:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

No, you were right the first time. See his "Screaming Pope" series from the early 1950s. Ceoil 20:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Delezue

"The philosopher Gilles Deleuze has contributed greatly to the interpretation of Bacon's work." This line seems to me out of place in the opening paragraph of the entry. Is there some special connection between Deleuze and Bacon that merits this? In what way is Deleuze contribution any greater (in some objective sense) than any other critic? Axamoto 20:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree its out of place in the current form of a very short and weak lead. Several heavyweights wrote extensively on Bacon, Deleuze was paticularly insightful, but so were Leiris, Sylvester etc. Ceoil 20:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

External links section

It's too long. Probably some of the links to images are to sites where the image is a copyvio. Some of the links are actually wikilinks and should be in a "See also" section, if not linked in the main text. Ty 02:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)