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Proposal to deprecate and remove images that say 'this is not an image please add one'
I see lots of pictures that say "Replace this image". For example see in Ann Robinson. There is nothing in the images section of the MOS about them. I propose the following text:
Articles should not contain images/text stating that there is no image and/or whose purpose is to invite editors to add an image. If such images are present, they should be deleted. This applies to "Replace this image male.svg" or "Replace this image female.svg"
Strong support—They look dreadful in their grey complexity; they make the article look perpetually unfinished; they push the assumption that an article can't be good unless it has an image; there are better ways of encouraging WPians to locate suitable images than defiling the very top of an article. I can see why the practice was started in good faith, but in retrospect it looks like a bad misjudgement. Such encouragement should be an important role of WikiProjects. Tony(talk)13:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. They look bad, push useful information further down the screen, and if anything probably encourage people to upload non-free images (people who know about Wikipedia's image use policy are also intelligent enough to know that an article doesn't have an image, and what to do about it, without being told). And the idea that we should discourage adding these things but not allow the removal existing ones is thinking at its muddledest.--Kotniski (talk) 15:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal because new editors often imitate existing style rather than consulting the MOS, and also I think most if not all editors of a website know that an image improves a biography, so these placeholders are not useful. Darkspots (talk) 16:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
SupportAll of Wikipedia can be improved. There's no point in plastering pages with big flags attesting to this. This is a good article, but we're going to scream in your face that it can be improved. Punch the monkey to improve Wikipedia! Such self-references make good-quality articles look like they come from an amateur website with those awful “under construction” graphics. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-10 20:01 z
Support. They look awful. No image at all would be better in every case. This is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog; these are put up largely for editors but the vast majority of users are only readers. They still have to look at these ugly placeholders. Britannica doesn't use imagery like this and neither should we. --John (talk) 01:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And also because they don't like their articles to look like ass. Neither should we. These are the equivalent of "under construction" signs and they make our articles look ugly and amateurish. --John (talk) 19:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support deprecation and weakly support removal of existing imaged commands. We're always under construction and editors who find images will look whether they are needed. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
+S Someone should find out who came up with this idea, and give that editor a barnstar for their noble intentions. But now we've tried the idea and seen that the costs outweigh the benefits. Let's delete them. Ling.Nut(talk—WP:3IAR)11:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. No need to make tens of thousands of unnecessary edits just to remove these, and I they might actually prompt users to upload the images as intended (off the cuff unqualified statement). –xeno (talk) 12:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per xeno. Users might see a lack of an image as an agreement not to have one; an explicit "hey, you there, put a proper picture here!" encourages additions. Prince of Canada t | c12:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Absolutely not - the last thing we need is to take a wishy-washy statement about "some people don't like using these" and transform it into a blanket ban. Doing this would not help the encyclopedia one whit. Shimgray | talk | 12:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Placeholders have been independently invented by a number of groups (:No_Photo_Available.svg for example) which suggest a common need and a fair degree of acceptance.Genisock2 (talk) 13:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - They encourage image submission, which we want, and they don't exactly trash the aesthetic either. Why delete them? I don't think the MOS debate about whether they should be used was publicized widely enough, I'd like to see that misguided change reversed. Avruch T 13:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Avrunch. I'd also note that Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a work in progress and we shouldn't pretend that it isn't. Perhaps people can come up with placeholder images that look prettier, but I'm sure that their existence has encouraged image submission (certainly, it's logical that it should have). LondonStatto (talk) 14:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I still think we should be using these templates — but that is a different discussion — I don't see any reason to go around removing them, no. - Rjd0060 (talk) 14:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: As long as we encourage readers to become editors through cleanup templates on the main article (as opposed to talk), then we should be asking for help whenever we can. --MASEM15:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So would you support a message displayed automatically at the top of all articles, saying something like "YOU can improve this article by adding sourced relevant information or free images". It would be less intrusive than these placeholder images, and not be limited to one specific type of "help" on one specific type of article.--Kotniski (talk) 15:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, that would not be specific enough to be useful, and would still require a large number of edits to alter the current situation. Leaving it the way it is with images in infoboxes (where a free image will go) is fine. MBisanztalk15:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So why that specific request for help? Why is it so likely that readers will have free pictures of people? Or why is it so important that we request those but not other types of image or information? And getting rid of the existing placeholders doesn't necessarily require large numbers of edits (even if you consider that a problem) - it could be done at the same time as bots perform other cleanup.--Kotniski (talk) 15:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Masem and Shimgray. The images themselves could definitely be improved though (more abstract, less "western" as someone said). -- Quiddity (talk) 18:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are certainly a lot of articles where the use of such images are pointless and feel free to remove those on a case by case basis, but even though they are discouraged there are still situations where they can be useful and so a complete "bad and delete" policy is not helpful. For example if a lot of people independently keep adding unsuitable non-free images to an article whenever the previous set gets deleted it can be useful to put up a placeholder to let them know that only free licensed images are wanted. Some of the main arguments against image placeholders in the past where that not all articles need images in the first place, but in the case of an article where fans will upload any old image they find on google if they find the article without one I think adding a "free image only please" placeholder makes a lot of sense even if it is generally discouraged. --Sherool(talk)22:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So how about we just edit the image to say "please replace me with a free image"? Or whatever the verbiage needs to be. One edit handles every instance of the image being used. Prince of Canada t |c10:24, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well according to the comments above, the verbiage would need to be more along the lines of "please do NOT replace me with an image unless you have a free one".--Kotniski (talk) 10:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The specific verbiage isn't that important at the moment, and I leave it to wiser minds than mine to come up with the specifics anyway. Point being, if we replaced with (or edited the current) something that actively encourages people to upload a new (free, legal, etc) image, there's a net benefit to the project. Or, why not try it for a month (arbitrary time period), and see what happens to articles, how often new images are placed, how often they're copyvios, etc. Prince of Canada t | c11:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - what Avruch said. We want more people to contribute, not less. I'd be interested to know from the OTRS people who handle the photosubmission queue if people mention these when they submit pictures. Mr.Z-man06:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I note that none of the opposers has even attempted to answer my question - why do we scream at people to contribute these particular images as opposed to the many other types of images and information they are just as likely to be able to contribute? --Kotniski (talk) 10:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there is no reason to limit this to people, but this is a major focus because it's where WP:NFCC#1 is most commonly abused. I would support (and be willing to create) similar placeholders for buildings, rivers, lakes, mountains, household appliances, etc. if there was enough demand. However at first glance most inanimate topics appear to already have a free photo, while most people do not. — CharlotteWebb10:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes, because there aren't so many free images about, which makes it all the less likely that anyone will be able to contribute one, and all the more likely that they will be provoked into contributing non-free ones. So it seems that bios are actually the last kind of articles that we should wish to deface in this way. --Kotniski (talk) 10:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The thing about people is that people tend to have pics of them or they do not for buildings and other fixed objects people we get better results by finding existing wikipedians who live near them.Geni20:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't follow. People don't tend to have free pics of famous people very often; and "finding existing WPans who live near them" could be done with exactly the same type of placeholders.--Kotniski (talk) 10:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument is illogical, "we don't ask people to contribute everything else, so we shouldn't ask for these" - why does it have to be an all or nothing thing? I'd actually support asking for more. We probably have at least (I haven't actually done the math) 10 readers for every editor. If we could get even 0.1% of those readers to contribute something we'd be much better off. Mr.Z-man17:07, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So after every sentence in Wikipedia we should write "if you can improve or add to this sentence then please click the edit button and do so"? That's what your argument leads to. I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for help, just that it should be done in an unobtrusive way, and without irrational emphasis on certain types of help rather than others.--Kotniski (talk) 10:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I didn't say that and my argument does not necessarily lead to that. If you can't argue rationally, please don't ask others to try and refute your points. That's like saying raising the legal blood alcohol limit for drivers will lead to a 5000% increase in drunk driving accidents because everyone will drive drunk all the time. You continue to make this an all-or-nothing thing - It doesn't have to be. Though, we do already put inline tags on particularly problematic sentences.
How can we ask for help in an "unobtrusive" way that will still have results? If we put things like this on the talk page, almost no one's going to see them, which defeats the purpose. Would you object to a "This article needs an image" cleanup tag? Mr.Z-man19:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
because your core claim is fundimentaly false. we ahve stub notices and cleanup templates (and placeholders for buildings and there is one around for warships).Geni20:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What core claim? Stub notices are OK; they go out of the way at the end of an article. Cleanup templates, where appropriate, aren't bad, since as well as asking for help they usefully inform the reader that this article isn't really up to standard (as do stub templates in a way). Again, why buildings particularly? Why warships particularly? Why not simply have one unobtrusive (that's the main thing) object to be placed on any article that lacks an image? Like the "coordinates missing" thing that appears out of the way at the top? We don't need to do it with a placeholder that occupies exactly the same position and amount of space as our hoped-for image is going to.
because useing different images means we get a degree of auto categorization and there are a number of article where it is safe to assume that there will never be a free pic.Genisock2 (talk) 16:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I think I share at least some responsibility/credit for these images coming into existence (a suggestion I made once on a mailing list). The hope was that we could correct a significant lack we had of photos of living persons. We can disagree about whether the approach was good, about whether it was successful, about whether we need to continue to add them. But I can't see any point whatsoever in immediately removing them everywhere. –RHolton≡– 17:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You should perhaps drop by Chris Cunningham's talk page and ask him directly, he's the one that said that. I could not find anything either. –xeno (talk) 13:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From what I recall, the use is discouraged on dead people's biographies if they were not living when photography was widely available thus an image unlikely. -- Banjeboi22:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From the archives:
Stats. Of the first twenty images linked to the female placeholder, four are deceased. Gia Carangi, Kathleen Kenyon, Ruth Gordon, Sophie Germain. Three are twentieth-century figures who died in the 1970s or 1980s. One (Germain) has been dead 1831. If you're arguing in favor of the placeholders on the grounds that they help educate editors about "fair use"/"free" images, I will argue that in these four cases (20% of the sample) they are actually misleading editors about what kinds of images are usable. Now, the proponents will say that the guidelines discourage the use of the placeholder on any articles other than living person bios; however, the practice is somewhat less clear.Northwesterner1 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The photosubmission queue on OTRS pretty much takes care of the second issue, especially if we remove the upload link (it should point to commons anyway). And removing the placeholders isn't going to prevent a "a determined copyright violator." Mr.Z-man17:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When a reference to a person contains two or more successive initials, is there a rule about whether a space should be placed between the initials? For example:
Unfortunately, it's up to the editor. IMO, the spaced version is execrable. And you might also consider losing the dots, as is increasingly common in English: PG Wodehouse. Tony(talk)02:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I consider the spaces strongly preferable. Without the spaces it looks too much as though the names are not separate from each other, particularly without the periods (what's that, an MPAA rating for Jeeves & Wooster?). In the case of three forenames, as in Du Bois, I'm willing to soften this on practical grounds. --Trovatore (talk) 02:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I have a preference; I do not mind the spaced version, and I also think it is suggested in the naming conventions. (I suppose not using spaces is more plausible for three–or more?!—letters.) Not using full stops, however, seems like a stretch to me. PG Wodehouse looks like the name of an electronics company (where PG would be an obscure initialism). Waltham, The Duke of04:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stops but no spaces for me. Doesn't matter what the sources do, particularly if they were written a long time ago - this is a style thing, where we don't have to imitate specific sources. --Kotniski (talk) 09:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quite right. It would be silly to use different conventions within an article to follow the house styles of different sources. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 19:13 z
The period marks that it's an abbreviated first name. That does not mean that the space should be lost. Check this example: J. Edgar Hoover. If he had been known as J. E. Hoover, should the space be removed? Of course not. Where's the logic and the consistency? I assume that you don't think he was called J.Edgar Hoover - without the space. LarRan (talk) 18:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bringhurst (book), an authority on typographic style, states unequivocally “add little or no space within strings of initials. ¶ Names such as W.B. Yeats and J.C.L. Prillwitz need hair spaces, thin spaces or no spaces at all after the intermediary periods. A normal word space follows the last period in the string” (p 30). Since we don't have the level of control to use thin spaces, no spaces is our only choice.
Additionaly, it would be poor style to let strings of initials break at the end of the line, and clutter the wikitext ridiculously to write “J.&C.&L.&Prillwitz.” —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 19:13 z
Well, that's Bringhurst's style convention. It's not binding on us, either. No-spaces are, in my opinion, hideous (thin spaces, I agree, would be OK if we had them). --Trovatore (talk) 19:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, as regards the linebreak issue: It's true, that's a bit of an annoyance, but it's unlikely to come up very much. In most cases the initials will be used only in the title and at the start of the first sentence, so there's no linebreaking to do. Admittedly it's possible that you might be talking about P. G. Wodehouse and his brother or something, both named Wodehouse, in the same article, and need to distinguish them, but this is a corner case and shouldn't be the determining factor of what we do normally. --Trovatore (talk) 19:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course Bringhurst's advice is not binding, but the book is considered a standard, and so we can consider the unambiguous directive as good advice.
It's also the form recommended by the Economist “Initials in people's names, or in companies named after them, take points (with a space between initials and name, but not between initials),”[1] the Guardian, sans points, “no spaces or points, whether businesses or individuals eg WH Smith...,”[2] and the Times Online “With people's names, put points between the initials (with thin space between).”[3]
I'd be glad to consider any typographic or style-guide advice which suggests word spaces between initials, but so far all we have is the personal preference of a few editors. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 20:13 z
Let's keep in mind that we don't need to have a standard at all. Leaving it up to the judgment of editors on individual articles is just fine. I mention my preferences only to show another side to the preferences expressed by some others. --Trovatore (talk) 20:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why would we consider the spaced form equally acceptable, when it is rejected in professional publishing? Its use, plus the inconsistency, just makes Wikipedia look a touch more bush league. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 20:30 z
WP:MOS#Consistency is “an overriding principle.” The whole point of the MOS is to promote consistency, internally and with generally accepted, documented practices in English-language writing and publishing. That your personal preference differs sounds like something you should be prepared to deal with in your own way. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 20:52 z
Yet another, secondary, consideration is search. P.G. Wodehouse (261 results) and pg wodehouse (261) are equivalent for most search engines, but P. G. Wodehouse (752) parses as three words. Which are you least likely to type into the search field when looking for “Peegee Wodehouse?” —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 20:30 z
Spaces are just not used in abbreviations. Would you write U. S.,Washington D. C., or The Man From U. N. C. L. E.? This is supported by our article on Abbreviation: “spaces are generally not used between single letter abbreviations of words in the same phrase, so one almost never encounters "U. S.".”
Is there any objective argument supporting the use of spaces? —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 20:44 z
The problem is that you're thinking of the initials as a single abbreviation. They just aren't. They are two abbreviations (in the case of two forenames). That's the difference with the examples you cite, where you're making a single abbreviation. Otherwise it's like you're collapsing two of the person's names together into a single lexical entity. --Trovatore (talk) 20:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, that is not what the problem is.
Of course Wodehouse's forenames are a single entity. U.S., D.C., and P.G. are each an abbreviated phrase (United States, District of Columbia, and Pelham Grenville), lexically and typographically. They are demonstrably treated as such by writers, editors, and typesetters. [self-moderated]. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-14 20:58 z
The cases are not parallel. "U.S." is the name of a political entity; neither United nor States is a name. But Wodehouse's first "name", in the abbreviated form, is P, his second "name" is G, and his third name is Wodehouse. They should not be collapsed into a single thing. It strikes me as borderline disrespectful towards the individual. --Trovatore (talk) 21:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
“Which Wodehouse?” would be answered—with all due respect—by the proper name “Pelham Grenville,” or its abbreviation “P.G.” That's the prevalent style of writing abbreviations. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-15 00:30 z
I am not convinced that it is "the" prevalent style. It appears to be a prevalent style. I have explained why I consider it to be an inferior one. --Trovatore (talk)
Oh, except sure, I agree, for a single abbreviation, that's the way to write it. But it's not a single abbreviation; it's two abbreviations. --Trovatore (talk) 00:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The AP Stylebook (2007), p 331,[4] “Initials: John F. Kennedy, T.S. Eliot (No space between T. and S., to prevent them from being placed on two lines in typesetting ¶ Abbreviations using only the initials of a name do not take periods: JFK, LBJ.”
Generally I find that journalistic stylebooks take an overly space-saving approach. As another example they tend to avoid the serial comma. --Trovatore (talk) 00:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No one is trying to save space; it's a matter of looking smarter and avoiding line-wrapping. I agree with everything Michael Z says, except for the line that the whole project should be consistent on the matter (its akin to engvar, requiring within-article consistency). Since people feel very strongly about the dots, I'm happy with the option to use them or not to use them. It would be ideal to have a mild recommendation against the spacing (since this is a justified online format), retaining the option to use it. Tony(talk)05:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To me, there is no logic, nor any consistency, in removing the space just because one abbreviated name follows another. If you write J. Edgar Hoover, and not J.Edgar Hoover, why suddenly write J.E. Hoover? If you don't write JohnF. Kennedy, and you don't write John F.Kennedy, why write J.F. Kennedy (btw, I'm comfortable with JFK and LBJ). Ok, there could be line breaks at places we would prefer not to have them, but so what? There will always be that -- unless we place "hard" line breaks in the text. I'm with Trovatore. LarRan (talk) 07:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer dots and spaces, but between the two, the spaces are actually more important. I don't agree that leaving out the spaces "looks smarter"; quite the opposite, in fact, because as I say it unjustifiably collapses two names, which should remain separate, into a single lexical unit.
I'm not sure what justification has to do with it. I do agree that it's unfortunate to have a line end in T. and then have the next one start with S. Eliot, but it would be just as bad to have a line end in J. and the next one start with Edgar Hoover, and I don't see that having a line end with T.S. and the next one start with Eliot is really much better. --Trovatore (talk) 07:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, it is (though it's still bad). I don't buy your argument about collapsing two names either - if we collapse United States into U.S., then we can collapse John George into J.G. They are two words in each case, but form part of the same name. --Kotniski (talk) 08:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not the same. Neither United nor States is a name; it's only together that they make a name. But if someone is named John George Smith you can call him John, George, or Smith; each of them separately is his name. (Granted, most people with that name will be a little surprised to be called George, but there are those who go by their middle names by preference.) --Trovatore (talk) 08:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They can be used separately, but when we use them together they form one single name (otherwise John George would equal George John). --Kotniski (talk) 08:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think your argument about the difference between names and items might escape most punters. We may as well go back to "U. S. A." and "N. A. S. A.". They're harder to read and contain redundant formatting on two counts. The first signal that it's an abbreviateion is the upper case, especially marked with two or more letters together. The second signal is the dots. The third signal (very dodgy, IMO) is the intervening space. The tendency is to reduce redundant formatting, especially strong since the demise of the typewriter and the advent of a wealth of formatting resources on computers. We've finally realised that excessive formatting carries disadvantages, one of which is that in most cases it's harder to read. Methinks you've become so used to writing and expecting the triply formatted initials that you find anything hard to accept. Tony(talk)08:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
John George does not equal George John, whether the bearer is called by the first, the second or both. The keyword here is "both", which means that it's two names, not a single name. Or would you call Pelham Grenville Wodehouse Grenville Pelham Wodehouse? LarRan (talk) 09:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you're talking to me, then no, obviously, that was my point. If "John George Smith" were just a list of three names by which the person might be called, then we could equally well put them in another order, "George Smith John" etc. We can't, because the phrase "John George Smith" is itself a name.--Kotniski (talk) 09:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that John George Smith is a name does not rule out that John, George and Smith also are names. In addition, you haven't removed the space between the names, and still it's a name, right? So why would removing the space between initials be necessary to make that -- the combination of initials and lastname -- a name? LarRan (talk) 11:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying it's necessary for that reason, but it's the normal style when initials are part of the same name. Like in U.S.A. (where America and (the) States are also names for it, and even if United happened to be as well, that wouldn't cause people to start writing U. S. A.).--Kotniski (talk) 11:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nor is it a valid argument that "FL" or "F.L." for "French Legion" should suddenly be "F. L." because my neighbour's surname is "French". Tony(talk)14:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The States is not part of the abbreviation U.S.A., whether the definite article is within parenthesis or not. The only name within that abbreviation is America, while all parts of P. G. Wodehouse are names. Even if there are people with the surname French, it isn't a name when part of the expression French Legion, it's an adjective.
My observation is that T.S. or P.G. in many cases (not all) is the result of sloppy typing or writing. That's why you find so many occurrences of T.S.Eliot and P.G.Wodehouse (no space before last name) and T.S and P.G (no second period). Many are not aware of the importance of spaces, and some don't even see this error until it's pointed out to them. So I guess my view is that a missing space between initials is simply a case of sloppyness, forgetfulness or other mistake, in short: an error.
With regard to Ipoellet's input below, I would comment that the abbreviations don't first show up in writing, they show up in daily parlance. Wodehouse's friends in school probably found it easier to address him as P G than Pelham Grenville. Spaces and periods are neither distinguishable, nor are they needed, when speaking, but the need of them arises when the name is put into writing. The role of the periods there is to point out that this is an abbreviation, the role of the space is to make clear that it's two abbreviations, not one.
Wow. I'm not accustomed to raising this much discussion! My original concern in raising this question was merely whether I would violate the MOS in exercising my preference in a particular edit I was doing. The answer clearly seems to be "no", and I thank everyone for their input. But insofar as the discussion expanded beyond my original concern, I've been wondering why I hold my particular preference - unspaced (with dots). I came up with two reasons: (1) When we reduce someone's forenames to initials, we are already - for whatever reason - trimming parts out to shorten them. Having chopped off all but the first letter of two or three names, it seems just a continuation of the same logic to pare out the space in between. The last name is not truncated, so the space remains there. Taking the reasoning even further would suggest that we should eliminate the dots as well, but that final step seems less conventional in the world at large. (2) When an individual's forenames are reduced to initials, they generally cease to be independently usable to refer to that person. It would be stylistically unacceptable to refer to T. Eliot, P. Wodehouse, or W. Du Bois. Thus the reduced initials do become a single lexical unit, and the space comes out. Ipoellet (talk) 16:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say ditch the spaces. A few people have argued by analogy, citing the fact that we'd provide spaces if the names were spelled out entirely. Misses the mark. If the names were spelled out, we'd need the spaces to be able to quickly distinguish the individual tokens. That doesn't carry across to a context where each token is always the same length and dots serve as explicit delimiters, so why should we observe the same convention? Should we put spaces in 01/01/2008 just because we'd put them in 1st January 2008? Ilkali (talk) 17:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're way beside the point. 01/01/2008 is not a name, nor is any part of it. The first 01 is not abbreviated, and the second 01 is not an abbreviation of January.
The rules you're applying here are arbitrary. That's the point. Why should we need special rules for names? What practical purpose do those spaces serve? Ilkali (talk) 11:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Look, I'm not claiming to be riding in on the white steed of Logic and explaining why things have to be the way they are. It's a different rule for personal names than it is for organizations or countries, and sure, there's an element of arbitrariness to this. I'm just saying why it isn't totally arbitrary, why it makes sense and is plausible.
Let me give one more point along those lines: When you read Wodehouse's name aloud, at least in a formal context, you don't say, as Mzajac (ITIW) said above, Peegee Wodhouse. You say, clearly, Pee Gee Wodehouse, with Gee as a stressed syllable. The spaces are a better indicator of this.
Also I don't necessarily insist on "triply formatted" -- I would be OK with P G Wodehouse, spaces but no dots, especially as it's a British topic. --Trovatore (talk) 19:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"you don't say, as Mzajac (ITIW) said above, Peegee Wodhouse. You say, clearly, Pee Gee Wodehouse". So what? Every rule espoused here in favor of the spaces is completely ad hoc. We don't write 01/ 01/ 2008 just because its constituents map to phonetically distinct words. Ilkali (talk) 11:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So you're perfectly comfortable with T.S.Eliot and P.G.Wodehouse? You stated above that since we have the periods, we don't need the spaces. LarRan (talk) 19:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No I didn't. I said that the dots serve as explicit delimiters (which is undeniably true), and argued that this (along with another factor - go read it again) marked a clear difference between the demands on styling in abbreviated and full forms. Since the contexts and demands are different, arguments by analogy are unpersuasive. The reason I would oppose renderings like T.S.Eliot is that they are extremely nonstandard. You can't make the same claim about T.S. Eliot. Ilkali (talk) 20:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Style manual survey
All the discussion got me to go to the library. I apologize for assuming that no spaces was the prevailing form based only on a quick review of online sources. Here are my findings. Most manuals also dictate where word breaks are allowed. These citations include advice for copywriters, editor, and typographers, and probably don't all assume the same level of typographic control. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 01:02 z
J.R.R. Tolkien – “a space between initials and name, but not between initials,” Economist[6]
J. R. R. Tolkien – “hair spaces, thin spaces or no spaces at all,” The Elements of Typographic Style, p 30
J. R. R. Tolkien – “thin space between,” Times Online[7]
J. R. R. Tolkien – “put a thin space between a person's initials . . . except where they stand alone,” Canadian Press Stylebook, 12th (2002)
J. R. R. Tolkien – “non-breaking word space.” “If initials are given instead of first names, the break should follow the initials. Chicago Manual of Style (2003)
J. R. R. Tolkien – “preferably with a space after each in OUP style;” J.R.R.T. “entirely in initials . . . no spaces;” FDR, LBJ “people more commonly known by their free-standing initials have neither points nor spaces.” Also, “Do not break place-names or (especially) personal names, if possible. If it is unavoidable break personal names between the given name(s) and surname, or initials (there must be at least two) and surname.” Oxford Style Manual (2003)
J. R. R. Tolkien – “there are spaces between each period and the following...,” The Canadian Style (1997)
All of the spacing above works as intended in Safari/Mac, Firefox/Mac, and MSIE 7. MSIE 6 displays boxes for hair spaces, and huge spaces for thin spaces. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 01:43 z
There is no one prevailing style.
Manuals which recommend any type of spacing between initials also assume professional typographic setting, including control over fractional spaces and word breaks (at the end of the line). None of this is practical to recommend in Wikipedia. We can type literal non-breaking spaces (option-space on a Mac), but they get automatically wiped out by edits using some web browsers.
The only way to approximate professional results in Wikipedia, i.e., to avoid line breaks like T. / S. Eliot, is to recommend no spaces between initials. this also has the advantage of being consistent with all other abbreviations, and helping to focus search results (e.g., the terms Eliot and T.S. or its equivalent TS, are more specific than three terms Eliot, T., and S.).
The MOS shouldn't recommend a particular style, but should list the advantages and disadvantages of each. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 01:16 z
Michael, I'd like thin spaces as the ideal, but yes, we found here some 18 months ago that IE6 (and now you say its offspring) won't deal with them. It's with a great deal of irritation that we had to abandon a template that combined thin spaces with hard-spaces for this purpose. WHY do people still use IE? Dropping it is the only way you'll force that behomoth to get real. In any case, it's display is generally shockingly poor compared with those of other browsers. Tony(talk)01:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
C'est la vie. Many people just don't have control over which web browser they use, or simply don't realize that website problems are the fault of their browser. It will be some years before we have full typographic control on sites for the general public. In the meantime, we have to make compromises, or simply choose from the menu of what works. In some ways, it's already light years ahead of 1970s phototypesetting, etc.
By the way, it may be possible to emulate the typographic appearance using CSS word-spacing or letter-spacing properties, but I think a style decision is more robust than creating new templates, etc.
(MSIE 7 does these fractional spaces right by the way, or at least MSIE 8 emulating 7 does.) —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 02:07 z
A reasonably nice technical solution has occurred to me. The thing is, you're not likely to use P. G. Wodehouse except at first reference; subsequent references will just say Wodehouse. In Wodehouse's bio there's no problem, because the first reference will be early in the first sentence, so no linebreak. In other articles that mention him, on the other hand, he'll be wikilinked at first reference.
So we could avoid most of the linebreaking problems if the developers could be persuaded to do the following simple thing: Inside a wikilink, following a dot, a single space is rendered as non-breaking. Granted, it's not 100% foolproof, but it should take care of most of the problem. --Trovatore (talk) 08:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably only the first instance will be linked. Hardly worth worrying about. Have you ever tried to get WikiMedia developers to do anything? It's like pushing against an ocean liner. Tony(talk)09:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the first instance is probably the only place there's a problem; that was my point. But no, I'm not extraordinarily optimistic about getting action from the developers. I'm suggesting it might be worth a try. Not all cases of single letter--dot--single space--letter will be initials, but it's hard to imagine a case where you'd actually want that single space to be breakable inside a link, so the solution could have benefits beyond the current discussion. --Trovatore (talk) 09:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that research, Michael Z, well done.
To me, it seems that most sources recommend the presence of a (some kind of) space, which is what I have advocated. The only problem we have now is the line breaks. For editors who are bothered by this, the solution is easy: pipe the links with non-breaking spaces, and there won't be a line break between the initials.
At the relatively low resolution of the computer display, I calculate that a typographic hair space (M/24) is equivalent to no space, and a thin space (M/5) is 2 or 3 pixels (for comparison, a word space is M/3 or 4 pixels in Wikipedia's default body text size). However, on my machine in Safari and Firefox, both hair and thin spaces render as exactly 1 extra pixel, while a word space renders as 3 pixels.
Setting the initials and points tight solves the wrapping problem, which I think is more important, for every instance, linked or unlinked, and without having to use any extra pipes, character entities, templates—just by typing the name. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 15:25 z
Wodehouse's full name appears 7 times in the body of the article, 9 times in its bibliography and links with spaced P. G., 8 times with tight P.G., and 3 times with PG sans points (obviously some are quoted titles which shouldn't be changed). A Google search "P.G. Wodehouse" OR "P. G. Wodehouse" site:en.wikipedia.org finds 50 articles in the first seven pages of results containing versions the name (that's when I got tired of counting). There are six or seven articles containing a variation of P.G.Wodehouse with no space at all.
I leave it to someone else to count the variegated T.S. Eliots, J.R.R. Tolkiens, H.G. Wellses, etc. ad infinitum. Any one of these names may appear hundreds of times in Wikipedia.
Initials set tight is a perfectly acceptable style, it is simplest for editors, it keeps wikitext clean, it avoids the wrapping problem, it focusses search engine results, and also helps readers consistently find names using text search on the page. Why not simply stick to one consistent style which is most practical for a web site with thousands of amateur editors? —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 14:44 z
Encouraging a single simple standard which corresponds with other abbreviations will only improve consistency. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 22:42 z
Because it's bloody ugly, that's why. Because it makes people want to read Peegee Wodehouse, when it ought to be Pee Gee Wodehouse. And note that it doesn't even solve the wrapping problem, because a line ending in P.G. is still quite bad.
If Wodehouse's initials+surname appear seven times in the body, well, that should probably be fixed, no? The standard is to use surname only at second reference, unless you're distinguishing him from someone else of the same name. --Trovatore (talk) 19:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but to me peegee and pee gee read and sound the same. That some professional style manuals specify no space or hair space (1/24 em), and that none of them mention this so-called ugliness tells me that this is the equivalent of your opinion or original research, and not a supportable argument for spaces.
It does solve the wrapping problem—the manuals which specify wrapping to this level of detail may discourage wrapping of proper names, but they absolutely prohibit breaks between initials. Supporting quotations are in the survey above.
I'm sorry, but I don't see any problem with the specific occurrences of Wodehouse's full name in the article—if you do, then please remove them and drop a note back here. That names with initials will appear only once at the beginning of a line in a single Wikipedia article is false. The scope is thousands of occurrences of hundreds of names. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 22:42 z
Editors are going to use every possible permutation of initials, stops, spaces and spelled out names. The question in a commercial publication would be one of how initials should be rendered throughout by mediawiki. So far, we haven't even gotten agreement on using one citation style, but good luck with that. I'd suggest that when there is an article the first usage should wikilink to that article, which in most cases will have fully spelled out names. If citing JJD Smith or J.J.D Smith or J. J. D. Smith (or whatever) it should be pipetricked as [[John Jacob Dingleheimer Smith|JJD Smith]] for JJD Smith. Of course a hybrid between tl:persondata and tl:initialism would be a better answer for any number of reasons. LeadSongDog (talk) 21:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In my case, I'm supporting it with perfect logic and consistency. The ultimate argument is that if J. Edgar Hoover is correct, then J. E. Hoover would have been correct, had he been known by two initials. Also, J.E. Hoover is only halfway from the sloppily typed J.E.Hoover -- and yes it looks gastly. LarRan (talk) 21:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I don't see any support for that argument in any literature, while I have cited professional style manuals whose advice contradicts it. It amounts to “I like it that way.” I have also found no support for the “two abbreviations vs one abbreviation” assertion.
Both spaced and unspaced initials can be considered correct, but a line break between initials is demonstrably incorrect. The only simple, consistent way to keep things within the realm of correctness is to type the initials tight. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 22:42 z
We aren't going to agree on this. Luckily we don't need to. The status quo, in which the MoS simply doesn't mention the issue, is not causing any problems. --Trovatore (talk) 22:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the discussion doesn't look like it's going to go anywhere else. Perhaps I'll gather the evidence cited above, and put together a proposal for this discussion or the Village Pump. If you find any other relevant sources to cite, please mention them here and I'll include it in the proposal. You'd also have the opportunity to state your own ideas in any poll, of course. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-16 23:04 z
"The ultimate argument is that if J. Edgar Hoover is correct, then J. E. Hoover would have been correct, had he been known by two initials". Only if we assume a certain rule (that abbreviated forms have to mirror non-abbreviated forms in their spacing) that clearly is not recognised by all commenters here. Where is the evidence that this rule exists? Or is it more ad hoc nonsense? Ilkali (talk) 23:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be more clear: we have the same problem with J. Edgar Hoover, i.e. a line can end with J. and the next line could start with Edgar. Yet nobody would suggest J.Edgar Hoover, to avoid unwanted line-breaks between J. and Edgar. Still, T.S. is proposed as the appropriate solution to avoid line-breaks between T. and S.. I find that amazing.
To me, this is a process of maturing. First you realize that writing T.S.Eliot is not correct. 99% (at least) realize that there should be a space before Eliot. The next step is to realize that there should be a space between the initials, similar to the space between J. and Edgar. I think more and more editors (slowly) realize that, and I'm pretty convinced that nobody goes in the other direction. Yes, some tolerate the missing space (sighing heavily to themselves), but that's not the same as believing that it's correct.
And it's not ad hoc nonsense. Since when has logic ceased to apply on language and writing? Is your position less ad hoc? At least it's less logical.
To continue to repeat that leaving out a space between the initials is incorrect, after having read the survey of manuals which demonstrates that it is an acceptable style, is to ignore evidence and defy logic, no? —MichaelZ. 2008-10-17 15:13 z
"To be more clear: we have the same problem with J. Edgar Hoover, i.e. a line can end with J. and the next line could start with Edgar. Yet nobody would suggest J.Edgar Hoover, to avoid unwanted line-breaks between J. and Edgar". Firstly, linebreaks are not the only issue here. Secondly, our job is not to lead linguistic change. We are only justified in choosing from styles that are in common use, which J.Edgar Hoover is not.
"And it's not ad hoc nonsense. Since when has logic ceased to apply on language and writing?" The more you declare that your position is logical while ignoring every counterargument I provide, the more I think you don't know what the word means. Ilkali (talk) 12:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quotations? Excessive?
Greetings, I notice the MOS is silent on excessive quotations. I recently encountered a number of articles replete with quotations (after GA review, I found them via peer review). There were various copyvios concerns which were addressed. However, the base question of - what extent of quoting is allowed? - was not answered by the MOS. I do not find large collections of quotes to be encyclopaedic. Can the manual be tightened? Anyone else have thoughts? Regards, Lazulilasher (talk) 16:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Headbomb: I refer to articles comprised solely or largely of quotations; where a paraphrased summary remains possible. Granted, this is perhaps not a style issue.
Re: Fg2: The policy is NFC#Text, and the question is: does the brief quotation serve to illustrate a point of view or establish context. In the case of the above, I argue that the quotation does establish context; and is thus permissable. Perhaps there is something I didn't know. Regards, Lazulilasher (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Lazulilasher. I appreciate the point of view of someone who has not been involved in editing the article. Having edited it from time to time, I might misjudge something like this. Fg2 (talk) 11:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The manual at present doesn't appear to cover the case of a living person when describing the format of a date range. Whilst a dead person is formatted thus: "Anne Example (1900–99)", with an en-dash, a living person should presumably be: "Anne Example (1900–)". However, I've seen it done with an em-dash and a space, thus: "Anne Example (1900— )". I presume that's wrong, but it'd be nice to clarify the consensus, and mention it in the manual. – Kieran T(talk)14:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Something tells me that it's much more polite to the person to say "(b. 1900)" than to use an en dash to point to their death ("watch this space"). Tony(talk)16:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any MoS guidance on use of a stop to end each item in a list?
I am thinking of the See Also section of an article as an example where I am noticing a tendency to put stops at the end of each line, even with short items that are not sentences. Is there any MoS guidance on this (I have looked, but not thoroughly)? If not, should there be? (It seems to me to be an undesirable affectation.) Globbet (talk) 01:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Generally speaking, stops should be only used at the end of a sentence. I can see three distinct cases here:
the whole list is part of a sentence
Punctuate as if part of a sentence; e.g.
I need to remember to pack
my toothbrush;
my hat; and
my ferret.
a list of sentences
Punctuate each entry as the sentence that it is; e.g.
It is usual in today's English to keep full stops to a minimum. For example, 50 years ago the BBC was written B.B.C., today it has no full stops. I also query the use of full stops when writing U.S. Should it not be US or better still USA as leaving off the reference to America is an arrogance that presumes that presumes there are not other united states in the world? Brenmar (talk) 06:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Brenmar[reply]
Dots are usually redundant; their use should be minimised. Some American writers still insist on "you dot es dot", regrettably. Tony(talk)12:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In some contexts it is easier to do a computer search for "U.S." rather than "US" because if the search is not case-sensitive, the latter is the same as the word "us". --Gerry Ashton (talk) 13:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is true, but one would search for "US" plus another item such as "health system". Hmmm ... that would yield nothing, probably—just joking; actually, it's very successful on google, with WP's articles (which use the dots in their titles) the top two of 52.4 million hits. Looks like cyberspace has caught up the the dotless way. Tony(talk)13:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:DAB is specific that thou shalt not end entries with a period. For consistency, other list-like pages or sections should do the same (or else dab pages should conform to the general standard). SpinningSpark16:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for bringing that to our attention. MOSDAB has hardened into a most unfortunate bunch of silly rules; but its requirements should not make Wikipedia look stupid. We have enough articles that do that already. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson20:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to impose nothing; I support the current option to use or not use dots for "US", but encourage all editors not to use them. On the other point (below), US editors apparently object to the dots in "U.S.A", and indeed even to the use of the triple abbreviation in most instances: see MOSNUM. Tony(talk)03:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the answer, Tony, is to refer to USA. That way makes it clear and avoids the arrogance of the Americans in thinking they are the ones with united states. Even presidential candidates call it the "United States of America" Brenmar (talk) 22:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Brenmar[reply]
List items are already clearly marked by bullets. Adding semicolons or periods is useless decoration, as would be adding colons to boldfaced headings. Periods should only be added as separators if the list items are mixed fragments and sentences, or short paragraphs. The same thing goes for image captions, whose nature is clearly indicated by their relationship to the image and enclosing border.
Like any functional product, typography is degraded by redundant elements, and it is not common practice to use them. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-25 00:33 z
So - general agreement, as I expected, but where in the MoS maze does it say, or of it doesn't, where should it say something like 'don't clutter lists up with misguidedly prissy punctuation'? Globbet (talk) 00:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess Wikipedia:MOS#Bulleted_and_numbered_lists has advice, but it doesn't quite conform to this concept, nor does it match prevailing use in my opinion. Also the examples in WP:LIST have no punctuation at all. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-26 16:13 z
Can somebody give some advice about categories please. I received the following response on my talk page:
In this edit to Barbarossa-class ocean liner you improperly changed the sortkey for a category. Because this is the main article for Category:Barbarossa class ocean liners, the pipe and space ("| ") were added to allow this article to list at the top of the category page. This is a common technique for 'lead' articles of categories. Please ensure that whatever tools you are using do not destroy this type of commonly used and intentional sortkey.
I really don't care either way, but empty pipes such as '| ]]' seem to be a bit of a hack. Does this indicate that there is something wrong with category sorting or is that just the way it is? Lightmouse (talk) 14:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Any sort-key which starts with a space will cause the page to appear before the "A" section in the category listing. Barbarossa class ocean liner would contain:
[[Category:Barbarossa class ocean liners| List of]]
so that it appears after the main article but before the individual boats. While it would undoubtedly be possible to change the software to allow some other way to do this, maybe some kind of magic word to the effect of:
{{#MAIN_PAGE_FOR_CAT:Barbarossa class ocean liners}}
but that would be even more confusing. If you can think of a syntax that would actually make more sense than the status quo, you should request it. In the meantime let me know if you need any help not breaking existing sort-keys. — CharlotteWebb17:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This cropped up because I have been fixing unwanted spaces in wikilinks. A surprisingly common class of error e.g. [[foobar ]]. The category thing surprised me but I am sure I work around it easily enough. Thanks. Lightmouse (talk) 17:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You may be interested to hear that using asterisks (*) to achieve a similar effect is actually rather common, and neatly avoids the problem of cleanup scripts removing the sort space (though personally, I still prefer spaces). —Dinoguy100018:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Asterisk is undesirable because it creates a visible "*" section before "A" on the category page. Something like:
[[Category:Foobar| ]]
has exactly the same effect as a space, but it is also a bit more confusing to editors. However, at least bots won't foul it up.
Maybe we should ask the devs to make categories ignore all punctuation characters when figuring out sort-keys. Then the albums …And Justice for All and "Heroes" would sort under "A" and "H" without any special help. Also a page which deliberately contains the asterisk sort-key ([[Category:Foobar|*]]) would sort as an empty string, appearing before "A", becoming equivalent to one which is spaces only. — CharlotteWebb18:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just try asking the devs to improve anything connected with categories... You're right about punctuation characters of course; and moreover small letters should be treated as equivalent to capitals, and diacritics should be ignored, and subcategories should all be listed before member pages, and categories should be allowed as member pages, and there should be more than 200 entries on a page, and member pages should be accompanied by links to their eponymous categories, and it should be possible to watchlist and redirect categories in a way that works as you would hope, and... (sorry, this is just my private category-functionality wishlist)--Kotniski (talk) 19:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, my own wishlist actually lines up pretty nicely with yours... In addition, I'd say allow each wiki to customize the global sort order (including a mechanism to sort multiple characters under the same thing) via an interface page, that would allow many of the current wanted features to be taken care of. —Dinoguy100020:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I have now solved it and proved that it now works correctly on the articles brought to my attention, namely:
Since the citations templates do not give uniform outputs, I've taken the liberty to write one that encompasses most of them. It is very bot-friendly, as all a bot would have to do is to replace {{cite X}} with {{unicite}} and everything will be tidied up.
Templates merged
These are the templates that can be bluntly replaced with {{unicite}} with very minimal problems if any.
Supports everything the old templates supported, and generalizes the features of some templates to all templates (like ISBNs, Quotation support, etc...)
The template is built in way that the "large work" is italicized, while sections are in quotes. If you provide |journal=, |conference=, |work=, |encyclopedia=, |newsgroup=, |mailinglist=, those will be italicized, otherwise whatever you wrote in |title= will be.
Some "advanced" features, such as the presence of a doi overiding the "Retrieved on YYYY-MM-DD" message.
Now allows for notes, so you can point out something like "Reference might be WP:POV." or "This author uses the A_ji convention instead of the A_ij convention for matrices."
Quotes & Notes are separated from the "reference" for easier reading.
Warns if some important inputs are missing (like titles)
Far easier to spot inconsistencies, as output is uniformized
Many other things
Known problems and oddities
|ref= are not yet supported (for {{harvnb}} or something).
As p. and pp. are not used consistently, page(s) is produced instead. If someone can confirm that bots can pick up all the different entries an place them into |page= and |pages= accordingly, I'll set |page= to produce p. and |pages= to produce pp.
|Quotes=no is not supported. The template is built in a way that you shouldn't have to specify whether or not quotes are used.
ISSN searches are done with Google instead of a search engine specialized for that identifier. If you know of a specialized search engine for ISSN, let me know.
No COinS yet. (I don't know what this is or how it works, so finding someone to "COinS-compatibilize" the template would be a good idea).
|accessdaymonth= and |accessmonthdate= not yet supported.
Template documentation is incomplete and innacurate.
The last semi colon in the authors shouldn't be there.
Last, First; Last2, First2 (1 January 2003), written at Place, Title, Series, vol. 1 (1 ed.), Publication-place: Publisher (published 1 January 1999), p. 152–300, doi:0123456789, ISBN0123456789, OCLC0123456789, 0123456789, retrieved 2005-01-01{{citation}}: Check |doi= value (help); More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
Last, First (1 January 2003). "Title". In Editor (ed.). Encyclopedia. Vol. 1 (1 ed.). Location: Publisher. pp. 1–151. doi:0123456789. ISBN0123456789. 0123456789. Retrieved 2005-01-01. Quote{{cite encyclopedia}}: |editor= has generic name (help); Check |doi= value (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |accessmonth= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
Last, First (1 January 2003). "Title". Work (in Language). Location: Publisher. Agency. p. 152–300. 0123456789. Archived from the original(Format) on 2009-01-01. Retrieved 2005-01-01. Quote{{cite news}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
Last, First (1 January 2003). "Title". Work (in Language). Location: Publisher. pp. 1–151. doi:0123456789. Archived from the original(Format) on 2009-01-01. Retrieved 2005-01-01. Quote{{cite web}}: Check |doi= value (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessdaymonth= and |accessmonthday= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link) CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
Last, First (1 January 2003). "Title"(Format). 1.0.0.1. Publisher: 1–151. doi:0123456789. 0123456789. Retrieved 2005-01-01. {{cite journal}}: Check |doi= value (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
"Title" (Press release) (in Language). Publisher. 1 January 2003. Archived from the original(Format) on 2009-01-01. Retrieved 2005-01-01. Quote{{cite press release}}: CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
As pointed out somewhere else [8]: there can't be a period at the end, because some existing citations include additional information there, separated by a comma. If the old citation template doesn't end a particular citation with a period, then the new template needs to follow that behavior. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I don't quite know how to tackle this one. I could place a "|dots=" switch so you could use it to refer to anything in a sentence. Bots could then pick up whether or not a citation is placed between <ref> tags. If between tags, dots are on, if not, dots are off. Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 06:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully the current templates will be re-worked as a wrapper for this template. The typical orphan-and-delete approach would cause more problems than it would solve. — CharlotteWebb09:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are already efforts to make {{Cite XXX}} use {{Citation/core}} as a common back end. It is unclear to me why Headbomb is ignoring that effort--he has not commented on those on-going merge discussions and has not responded to the primary person responsible for the merge on this page (going so far as to archive rather recent discussions). --Karnesky (talk) 15:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Entirely pointless change for changes sake - produces an extremely complicated template with a collosal number of fields which is a guarantee that people will get it wrong most times. In addition MoS is ENTIRELY the wrong place to discuss this - use of Cite templates and the particular Citation style that this imposes is entirely optional and nothing to do with the MoS. It reeks of an attempt to use MoS to try and force everyone to use the template and with it that particular means of citations.Nigel Ish (talk) 15:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I really hate having the quotes appear separately in blockquotes rather than inline with the citation. What citation style is this supposed to be following? Kaldari (talk) 20:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't make any sense having a semicolon between the authors and the date (which is already in parentheses). This isn't just bad citation style, this is bad grammar. Kaldari (talk) 20:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No shit. I am getting an extremely bad feeling here; the principal proponent's callous disregard for any voice other than his/her own is throwing petrol on the flames. Ling.Nut(talk—WP:3IAR)05:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if this ever comes to a vote I will definitely vote against it. Different academic fields use different citation styles so should we. Having a single admissible template will make life impossible for newcomers.·Maunus·ƛ·05:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Look, I am sure we all appreciate the work you've put into this, something that you probably believe will make wikipedia a better place. We just disagree with that belief. You will realise that many people are sceptical towards attempts to unify and make rules, and that some (like me) even find that such unificational solutions add complexity instead of removing it.·Maunus·ƛ·06:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not making any rules here, I'm writing a template. If you don't like {{unicite}}, don't use it. As far as ease of use goes, there's nothing different about using {{unicite}} than using any other templates out there. If you can use {{cite book}}, then you can use {{unicite}}. Be skeptical if you want, but I've dealt with worse things than citations debates. Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 07:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is rather disingenuous to act as though this won't affect people who don't want to use it, when you are on the record as advocating the use of a bot to "replace {{cite X}} with {{unicite}} and everything will be tidied up." Hesperian11:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm against it also, honestly. There is no one citation method in academia, nor should there be on Wikipedia. And I'm absolutely against a bot going through and replacing templates with unicite. I write articles in a style that is easy for me to maintain, and having that changed on me is not something I would be for. Ealdgyth - Talk13:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:OWN. What's easy for you or I to maintain doesn't matter much. What does matters a great deal is that the reader sees the most correct content we can manage. That's why we do all this stuff. WP:CITE, WP:V and WP:RS all serve that end. Anything that gets novice editors to provide even minimal citations for their text contributions will be far more important. I'd frankly be happy if they'd just give an ISBN/PMID/whathaveyou permalink and a page number in most cases, bots or experienced editors can do the rest. Asking a novice to get familiar with diverse style guides depending on our idiosyncratic rules is a recipe for error. Having one template the novice can start with that will do a reasonable job would be a very good thing. Having bots ravaging carefully formatted high quality articles would not.LeadSongDog (talk) 17:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think WP:OWN applies more strongly to those who quash discussion by moving current discussion (almost all of which is less than a week old) to archives, rather than responding to it. Some people find separate templates per type easier; some prefer a single template; some like to format citations by hand. There are already bots that add more citation info, based on an identifier. {{Citation}} seems to be able to format references of disparate types from a single template & the {{Cite XXX}} templates will soon use the same back end. Given that the original motivation of unicite was supposedly to stop template proliferation, I don't see the point--there's no way that all previous citation templates will be deleted. Why not help improve citation/core? --Karnesky (talk) 17:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yay, I'm a demon! Argue on form, not on content! Does it matter that I summarized the old discussions in bullet form? Nope, cause I'm an evil man who didn't reply in the CABAL approved place. Burn me, I'm a witch!
The reason why I archived the discussion is because most of it was unstructured and hard to follow, incredibly lengthy and most of the points raised have been addressed. There's no need to have that here. If you feel that there's something in the old discussion that has not been sufficiently addressed, then just go in the archives, and re-copy it here.
I don't know why you resort to dramatics. My criticism was civil and reasonable and was not a personal attack. I do believe that template proliferation is a "real issue." If this template has the same goals as {{citation}}, I don't see the value in it--why not improve {{citation}}? If this template has different goals, those should be large enough to overcome deficiencies (raised both here and in the archive). Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, but I'd appreciate a clear explanation for goals and why modification of existing templates would not meet those goals. --Karnesky (talk) 17:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since newcomers come from different academic fields with different citation styles, and because other newcomers don't know anything about template formatting and can barely learn to cite references in a separate bibliography section I am quite convinced that having a single admissible template citation style will not do them a favour.·Maunus·ƛ·19:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anyone advocating for "a single admissible template citation style". Rather for provision of a new template that will make the others redundant. If you want to learn all the wrinkles of all the others, go right ahead. If you want to just type "( I got this from page 34 of John J Smith's 1946 book)" that's cool too. Someone will fix it up.LeadSongDog (talk) 19:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Headbomb has advocated a merge of very popular & already used templates, saying "all a bot would have to do is to replace {{cite X| with {{unicite| and everything will be tidied up." That this discussion is centralized on WP:MOS also speaks volumes. A proposed merger and bot work do seem to indicate a desire to deprecate other template citation styles. --Karnesky (talk) 20:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent)
I did and still do advocate a deprecation of all the different citation template in favor of one unique template. I design {{unicite}} so deprecation would be very quick, efficient, and doesn't require any change in the way people cite things other than to call on {{unicite}} rather than one of the zillion templates out there. It would greatly improve things as far as uniformity is concerned, it would be far easier to maintain, and newcomers won't have to learn the quirks of zillions of templates. {{citation}} has been around for more than a year now and the fact that all the other template do not produce uniform outputs means that {{citation}} failed to do what it set out to be or that non-deprecation is not a viable option. However {{unicite}} itself is independent of whether or not the other templates are deprecated or not, and I'm not looking for a debate on deprecation right now. The fact that this discussion is centralized on WT:MOS is indicative that I think that the people who with the best insight on citation style are here, and that I would rather develop {{unicite}} openly than in a low-traffic and obscure page, and of nothing else.Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 20:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
{{Citation}} predates {{Cite web}} and {{Cite book}} by several months. The original goal was not to make uniform citations and multiple templates based on resource type do have advantages (different types do have some peculiar output conventions & also expect very different input data).
The uniformity problem is now recognized by many & steps are being taken to address that problem. If {{Cite XXX}} are fairly uniform with one another & differ most from {{Citation}}, then the right thing to do seems to be to continue to modify {{Citation}} until it matches the output of the more popular templates. There seems to be absolutely no advantage of starting yet another template that makes absolutely no attempt at uniform output to already-existing citations.
Even supporters of a more uniform or easier citation system have stated that they do not want or believe that this effort is meant to derail current citation systems. I imagine that any request for bots to transform already existing templates or to deleted some of the most popular templates on Wikipedia will be met with even stauncher criticism than you have already seen here. There are advantages and supporters of having choice, but few for prescription.
As I previously stated, your passion and effort is outstanding. But I think it would probably be better spent trying to improve {{Citation}}, as that is more likely to gain traction & will have to be addressed whether unicite takes off or not. --Karnesky (talk) 22:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First, the thing is that {{cite xxx}} are not uniform with one another. Second it's a flat out lie that this does not attempt to match the output of the more popular templates. And third, there are nothing but advantages to having one single unified template for non-specialized citations. It streamlines maintenance, it uniformity citations, it facilitates error-spotting, and it simplifies things for newbies. {{harvnb}} could now be used for things that previously did not support it. You could now place a variety of references in sentences, not just those supported by {{citation}}. Functionality is enhanced for all the templates covered, now supporting quotes, notes, archive links, identifiers, etc... There's a lot of hoo-haa about how {{unicite}} could screw up things, but very little examples to back that claim.Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 23:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Members of {{Cite XXX}} are closer to one another than they are to {{citation}} or to {{unicite}}. Please let me know what current template {{unicite}} is attempting to match--I see plenty of discrepancies in the above examples. You have already commented that some of your design choices have reflected your personal aesthetics (rather than current behavior of an existing template). All of the advantages you list could be achieved by using the same {{citation/core}} for other citation templates; what advantages are unique to a "one true template" solution?
I'm not going to waste my time reiterating why choice is generally a good thing -- I suppose that I'll save that for when you propose switching from other templates to {{unicite}}. --Karnesky (talk) 00:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to Ling.Nut's original comment, if the backend merge of {{Citation}} and {{cite journal}} goes ahead we will then have two templates which can work with {{Harv}} and both will allow minor punctuation tweeking. So you should get more flexability rather than less. Currently the new backend is undegoing testing at Template:Citation/testcases, Template:Cite journal/testcases input and testing there most welcome.
While there is a good point about making things easy for novice editors we also want to making things look professional in FA's and such like. Consistency of reference formats in an individual article is a desirable goal, which in turn requires consistency between the various cite XXX templates and to a lesser extent Citation. This seems to be getting there. In actual fact there is very little variation in the output of the templates. But for a difference between . and , we do have a defacto house style.
There are lots of advantages of templates over hand crafted references, they reduce problems of getting consistant formats and produce COinS data which is increasing being used by people who want to pull references out of wikipedia. Should efforts be taken to allow editors more control over output formats? Should we think about deprecating some of the input parameters to reduce reduncancy? --Salix (talk): 20:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Specialized cite templates
I'm not reading the entire discussion, so can someone answer a quick question? Would any of the proposals get rid of specialized templates like {{cite UTSR law}}? --NE206:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"A transgender, transsexual or genderqueer person's latest preference of name and pronoun should be adopted when referring to any phase of that person's life, unless this usage is overridden by that person's own expressed preference. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (e.g., she fathered her first child). " - This goes against the factual encyclopaedic nature of Wikipedia, although popular western media currently promotes the acceptance of transgender and transsexuals as belonging to their chosen rather than natural gender, this is not a globally supported position and creates an opinion bias.
--NE2 07:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
