Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:Reevaluation
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Although notability is a long-standing guideline, some users believe that it is time to reassess its appropriateness and meaning. This request for comment has been lead to by (often controversial) discussions at WT:FICT, WP:Notability/RFC:compromise, and WT:N, not to mention the countless AFD's in which notability has played a role and has been disputed.
Note that this request for comment is just designed to determine community position on 1) whether or not there should be notability guidelines at all, rather than simply using other policies and guidelines such as WP:V, WP:NOT, WP:OR, and WP:RS, 2) whether or not the current notability guidelines should be changed or left as it is, and 3) whether or not it should be renamed.
Please remember to be civil in all discussions on this page. It is perfectly acceptable to respond to other users' comments, so please watch this page if you add any comments.
In an effort to keep each particular argument for or against notability in a central location, each of the two main sections on this page is split into four subsections. The first two subsections are locations to put your opinions on whether or not something should be done with the notability guideline, and if so what should be done. Feel free to add further subsections to these areas to separate different arguments. The second two subsections are for !votes, and should contain little if any actual discussion. Anything that doesn't fall into one of these categories, such as observations on general trends in the RFC, should be placed on the talk page.
Clarifications
Each of the three sections below should be considered separately: e.g., you may believe that notability should exist, but needs to be changed. In this case please put comments in both applicable sections so that the results of this RFC may be more easily interpreted. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Terminology
- "Appropriate sources": shorthand for "significant coverage in reliable third-party sources". These are sources that help an article meet the GNG.
- "GNG": the General Notability Guideline. This says that "if a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable." It also defines words such as "significant", "reliable source", "independent", and "presumed".
- "SNG": the subject-specific notability guidelines such as WP:MUSIC and WP:ATHLETE.
- "RFC": Request for Comment, a discussion that Wikipedians use to resolve disputes among smaller groups of editors.
Should WP:N continue to exist as a guideline, or be demoted/deleted?
WP:SNOW indicates an overwheleming "Keep." Possible changes and alterations to notability can and should be discussed below. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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Should Wikipedia:Notability stay marked as a guideline? Should it be demoted to essay, rejected, or historical status? Or should it be deleted altogether? Discuss these options below. Arguments for existence as guideline
Arguments against existence as guideline
Refactored comments by User:A Nobody
More of an opinion piece by a segment of the community than reflective of some kind of real majority in practice. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Notability is such an over the top if not baffling and anti-wikipedic concept that it is really nothing more than an April Fools prank and should be acknowledged as such so as not to confuse anyone. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Support marking as a humorous essay. Sincerely, A NobodyMy talk 17:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Notability clearly lacks sufficient support to be considered a guideline given the opposes above, calls for renames, 189 editors with userboxes opposing it, etc. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Support marking as historical. Given the widespread opposition that brought about this RfC in the first placed, it should be acknowledged that this is a failed guideline. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 18:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)--A NobodyMy talk 17:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Support existence as guidelineThis section is to voice your general support for the existence of a notability guideline. Support voiced here does not necessarily constitute support of the current guideline's content, or its current name. You can support the guideline's existence here while also supporting a content or name change in the sections below.
Oppose existence as guideline
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Proposed changes to WP:N
- Notability as currently presented through the GNG and SNGs is trying to do two things: an inclusion guideline (what we include) and a content guideline (when do make an article). This is a major burden for a guideline under so much contention, and while it helps to correct from WP's unbridled growth from its early years, it is too much of a correction as it seems to be hard to use common sense against the major proponents of it. --MASEM 22:04, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- I thought notability is specifically not a content guideline. Could you clarify that? Equazcion •✗/C • 23:50, 10 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- It is not, but it used implicitly as such. See the previous RFC on WP:N where there is strong resistance against spinout articles and moderate support for lists of non-notables. While WP:N currently states If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article., it doesn't attempt (appropriately) to describe how to handle subpages of a topic created by summary style approaches. The problem is that many editors want WP:N to applied to "articles" unilaterally, when really it is the topic that should be of interest.
- It is a work in progress, but User:Masem/i describes more on my thoughts. Basically, if WP were a printed volume with an infinite number of pages, the coverage of a "topic" may last for several pages, even if all aspects of a topic aren't notable but verifyable and are not indiscriminate; when that's translated to an electronic form and limited by size, we technically can recreate that (redirects are our friends) but philosophically we hit a brick wall in the policy area to support it, namely because of the weight WP:N carries. --MASEM 01:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. I agree N should cover topics rather than articles. I've actually proposed the use of subpages before (actual subpages, as in topic main page/topic subpage). As long as we continue to recommend the splitting of large articles, we need some way of preventing the deletion of those splitoffs. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:59, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Yep; IMO, if a topic as a whole is notable most all parts/elements of it should be included also. For example, Dungeons & Dragons is notable, so shouldn't the things that make it up also be included (without becoming a WP:GAMEGUIDE, of course)? On the other hand, if a book or game was non-notable, then obviously there shouldn't be any spinoffs. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. I agree N should cover topics rather than articles. I've actually proposed the use of subpages before (actual subpages, as in topic main page/topic subpage). As long as we continue to recommend the splitting of large articles, we need some way of preventing the deletion of those splitoffs. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:59, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that the current N is causing some users to leave Wikipedia because the things that they want to contribute... be it music, fiction, or people, are constantly being removed becuase of non-notability. I think that this might be slightly alleviated if N was instead just an interpretation of WP:V, WP:5, and WP:NOT, rather than acting as a completely separate guideline as it currently is. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- You're right to be concerned if people are putting in effort to create new articles which are promptly deleted, but we need to understand why that is happening. Wikipedia:Your first article is pretty clear: it says "Articles that do not meet notability by citing reliable published sources are likely to be deleted." Perhaps that warning should be emphasised, either on the Search Results page (see my mock-up warning here), or after the user clicks "Create the page". It is a little unfair, really: in the old days new users could just bang in text based on their personal interests with little or no supporting material. Now that Wikipedia is becoming more mature, most of the effort needed is to improve the content of existing articles and in particular find citations for them, and of course that might not appeal to some people. It's a shame, but it's no reason to abandon notability. - Pointillist (talk) 14:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Proposed Change: Change the GNG to be a direct interpretation of WP:V, WP:NOT, and WP:OR, rather than having it act as its own policy (and it does act like a policy, even though it isn't), in a similar way to how WP:SNOW is a direct interpretation of WP:IAR. This would probably relax the requirements a little, but would still mean that things had to be verfifiable and not indiscirminate or directory-like. -Drilnoth (talk) 14:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- But Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information embeds Wikipedia:Notability anyway, doesn't it? Sorry, I'm probably not up to speed with the issue here. Could you give an example of a borderline case that would be decided differently if your proposed change were adopted? Thanks! - Pointillist (talk) 14:56, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- WP:IINFO doesn't actually embed the GNG in it... it contains a list of specific things which are indiscriminate, but that does not include little heard-of books, songs, and fictional characters the way the GNG does. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- I think I understand. WP:IINFO (which is part of a policy page) begins "Further information: Wikipedia:Notability", but as this is a guideline it can't be embedded into the scope of WP:IINFO. Is that right? It's not exactly Kafkaesque (sorry Ikip) but neither is it very easy to absorb in a single reading.
- Going back to your proposed change "Change the GNG to be a direct interpretation of WP:V, WP:NOT, and WP:OR". WP:V says "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." WP:N seems to be adding a "Significant coverage" test and clarifying sources as being "independent/objective", "not temporary" and ideally "multiple". Which parts of that does your proposed change aim to avoid? - Pointillist (talk) 00:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- It doesn't aim to avoid that at all. N adds information which is not included in V or NOT by, in my opinion, further limiting what articles can be included. Additionally, I think that notability is used incorrectly a lot in AFDs; if it was modified and better clarified that it was just an interpretation of core policies, it would be used more in the way it is supposed to: As inclusion criteria, not exclusion or deletion criteria. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:11, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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I'm not sure I understand Masem's argument above. Notability is (already) an inclusion guideline. It says, broadly, what subjects are included. Content guidelines like NOT, NOR, V, BLP, SPAM, all say what content we can't have. We have an article on George Bush because he is notable (per the GNG, or BIO, or whatever). But we can't have an article on how George Bush is a spaceman from mars (NOR), a jerk (BLP/NPOV). We have an article on IBM because they are notable (per GNG or CORP) but we can't have an article on how IBM's new ultra-mega-super whatever is awesome and you should buy it (SPAM/NPOV). I don't see how this would or should change if we rename notability. Protonk (talk) 22:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Masem is just plain wrong. It is, and always has been, only a content guideline for when we have an article. We have an article when the topic of that article meets all of our policies, the most important combination of which is encapsulated in the GNG. He is wrong in asserting that notability is about the content within an article, that has never been what notability, the GNG, or the SNGs, are about. GRBerry 23:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Notability does not explicitly act as a content guideline, but once you start working with topics that cannot be sourced but are necessary in comprehensive coverage of a much larger topic (that is forced to split over several articles), the influence of notability in restricting content becomes apparent, as WP:N (as used by many editors) would not allows for supporting articles created per summary style of that larger topic. If WP were a printed book with an infinite number of pages, then likely coverage of clearly notable topics would have numerous subsections; an article on New York may have sections covering the major cities and towns, its transportation system, landmarks, economy, etc, that would last for several pages; an article on a sports team may have scores and team rosters throughout the teams history, an article on a television show would including all the recurring characters and episodes. When they are all grouped under one super-large article, these all seem to be ok, and the infinitely-large index would cross-reference all the sub-topics of these. Technically, we can recreate this electronically via multiple article pages, with navigation templates for maneuvering between related sections and redirects for searching, but notability blocks logical approaches here in that some articles that would be naturally created from the larger article would be blocked by certain uses of the notability guideline (most specifically lists of topics lacking notability). Thus, one is forced to figure out a different content approach if they wish to include that material. This "content" aspect of notability is not explicit, but it a result of how the guideline is used. --MASEM 15:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- "once you start working with topics that cannot be sourced" then you are in the land of WP:OR and are also failing WP:V. I am not at all sure that I follow your logic in the relation of your argument to WP:N. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- That should be read as "sourced only from primary sources". Clearly anything without sources cannot be included in the first place. --MASEM 18:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- "once you start working with topics that cannot be sourced" then you are in the land of WP:OR and are also failing WP:V. I am not at all sure that I follow your logic in the relation of your argument to WP:N. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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This section was formerly a poll-style list of "supporters of change". However since there are no specific changes outlined to support or oppose yet, I've changed the heading. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:30, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
Note: The "oppose changing" section was moved to the talk page. Until editors know what exactly they would be supporting or opposing, poll-style lists of supports/opposers are impractical. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:30, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Based on trying to improve upon what has been seen as too much deletion in the last few years, it would seem to me that we would want to move to broad inclusion guidelines (but still adhering to WP:V and WP:IINFO), and then restructuring how we present articles to make sure that articles are comprehensively usable to make sure that articles are neither permastubs nor invite excess violation of NOR, NPOV, and other NOT. This means that while a topic should be included via inclusion guidelines, it may not have enough non-primary sources or information outside of one or two sources to present a completely comprehensive article, but still can be described in a parent topic or a list/table article, using redirects as needed. The present GNG still presents itself as an (but not the) inclusion guideline, since anything significantly sourced by secondary sources is something we'd want to include. --MASEM 22:04, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Support per my statement above. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- User: A Nobody supports changing the content of the policy. I'm posting this to encourage him to post his ideas. He should feel free to replace this comment. Thanks. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:28, 10 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Second choice. Equazcion, you do realize that wikipedia existed before notability? That in fact many journalists and editors nostalgically look back on that time? So your
stuntinvitation makes no sense. It is perfectly rational and logical to simply want to demote or get rid of Notability. Wikipedia already has enough Bureaucracy and Rule Creep. There are dozens of failed notability guidelines, and there are several content forks already off of notability.Ikip (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)- Sorry I'm a little confused -- to what stunt are you referring? Equazcion •✗/C • 01:57, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- "I'm posting this to encourage him to post his ideas. He should feel free to replace this comment." Lets change my word to "invitation". It is a very unusually request, correct? Hold a place for an editor, in a section you oppose? Ikip (talk) 02:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- I had an argument with that user in the "support" section (the bulk of which I removed since it was irrelevant to the main discussion), where he was responding to each of the support comments by saying that the supporters were wrong since the policy clearly needed to be changed. I asked that he not respond that way to each comment but rather post his ideas for change here instead, since that would be more constructive, and his continued responses seemed rather unhelpful and were irritating the users there. He refused, and I posted this comment here to encourage him further. If that's been taken as some sort of sarcastic remark, I didn't mean it that way, but if anyone feels that it's inappropriate they can feel free to remove it. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:13, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification, I will leave that up to other editors to remove, if they wish. Ikip (talk) 02:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- I had an argument with that user in the "support" section (the bulk of which I removed since it was irrelevant to the main discussion), where he was responding to each of the support comments by saying that the supporters were wrong since the policy clearly needed to be changed. I asked that he not respond that way to each comment but rather post his ideas for change here instead, since that would be more constructive, and his continued responses seemed rather unhelpful and were irritating the users there. He refused, and I posted this comment here to encourage him further. If that's been taken as some sort of sarcastic remark, I didn't mean it that way, but if anyone feels that it's inappropriate they can feel free to remove it. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:13, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- "I'm posting this to encourage him to post his ideas. He should feel free to replace this comment." Lets change my word to "invitation". It is a very unusually request, correct? Hold a place for an editor, in a section you oppose? Ikip (talk) 02:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry I'm a little confused -- to what stunt are you referring? Equazcion •✗/C • 01:57, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Weak support, in principle: I think this is obvious: virtually everyone supports making changes and improvements to our guidelines. I think even many oppose !votes would support change, except that they don't want to agree any and all changes. This isn't a very useful option, because the wide range of interpretations of "change" will prevent us from finding even a smidge of common ground to build upon. Randomran (talk) 17:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Support in principle: something must be done to get a fresh consensus, ideally as part of a package that makes it easier for inexperienced editors to understand whether a new article will succeed. This means simplifying the relevant policy/guideline pages (to reduce TL;DR), making them easily accessible while editing, and taking extra care with deletion processes (so we don't look like "bullies", "vigilantes" and "wannabe tin-pot dictators"). I'd like feedback on a related suggestion:
- The practice of creating an article in main space and looking for sources afterwards maximises conflict/frustration. To avoid this, the "create this article" link (on the search results page) should create the new article in user space by default, where it can be polished without time pressure. Can we all agree on that, at least? - Pointillist (talk) 09:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Should WP:N be renamed?
List of new names for consideration
Feel free to add suggestions below, but please sign your suggestions, to avoid overpopulating the list with trivial suggestions. Initial list posted by Equazcion •✗/C • 20:08, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Article inclusion
- Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion / Wikipedia:Inclusion criteria / Wikipedia:Inclusion guideline
- Wikipedia:Third-party sources
- Wikipedia:Wikipedic
- Wikipedia:Encyclopedic Notability
Arguments for renaming
- I think that what the guideline really means is often misinterpreted because of its name. Notability is really a set of inclusion guidelines, and I think that it should be called as such. As it is, notability seems to be used as exclusion guidelines, which it really isn't supposed to be. Therefore, I suggest renaming to WP:Inclusion guidelines. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest "WP:Criteria for inclusion" or "WP:Inclusion criteria", instead of "WP:Inclusion guidelines". It just fits better into statements (public and internal) and discussions. Ie. "I feel this article meets/doesn't meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion."As for whether or not it should be done, it would be nice, if only to avoid confusion. I often see newbies in deletion discussions when their articles, or articles they really care about, are nominated, saying things like "how can you say this topic isn't notable??", and then we have to explain that we're not talking about the word notable but the policy, describe the distinction between opinions on topic notability and meeting the notability guideline per se, etc etc. A rename would probably avoid most of that, if not all.PS I of course realize my suggested names are already redirects here, but I'm of course suggesting that one of those should be the policy's official name. Just to be clear.Equazcion •✗/C • 22:12, 10 Feb 2009 (UTC)- There are a few reasons for renaming:
- "Notability" causes editors to ignore the third-party source requirements, and get into subjective measures of importance.
- Deletionists sometimes use "notability" in order to just delete things that they believe are unimportant, regardless of sources. WP:IHATEIT.
- Inclusionists sometimes use "notability" in order to keep things that they believe are important, despite a lack of sources. WP:ILIKEIT.
- People (new editors) don't actually read the guideline and just rely upon the title, because "notability" usually just means "importance" to them. (Consult a thesaurus.)
- To some extent, deleting an article because it's "not notable" (unimportant) hurts more feelings than deleting an article for "lack of sources". We shouldn't coddle editors, but we *can* find ways to take the sting of perceived subjectivity out of sourcing problems.
- The point of notability isn't that we judge what is notable, but that reliable third-party sources do -- by noting up major phenomena.
- There are counter arguments, but I think they're rebuttable:
- Notability is the best name. To which I counter that it leads to many misunderstandings, which I mentioned above.
- People are still too accustomed to using notability. To that, I counter that habits can change if we permit the slow transition. See Wikipedia:Vanity. We felt that "conflict of interest" sums up the issue much better.
- People are acting in bad faith to change the scope and eventually dilute the content of the notability guideline. To that, I counter that we should pick a rename that improves the scope, and cements the requirement for third-party sources.
- Some of the proposed renames are lousy. But a little cooperation would be nice, as it's hard to reach a consensus without brainstorming from both sides.
- There it is. Randomran (talk) 17:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Arguments against renaming
- Renaming is simply a feel-good solution. Notability's effects are very deep and need re-evaluation. I do agree introducing "inclusion" is good, but this guideline should not simply become "inclusion" to make the right change. --MASEM 22:05, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Per Masem, this is a feel-good solution. The term "notability" is so ingrained here that changing the name of this guideline is pointless. — sephiroth bcr (converse) 22:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Calling a shotgun a "home pretection device" might be accurate, but still allows that gun to blow away whoever happens to stand in front of it when the trigger is pulled. Renaming this guideline serves no purpose. It is what it is and must be dealt with for what it is, and not for what it might be called. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 04:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose Renamed to what? No credible alternative is being proposed. This RFC sucks. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Umm... a few alternatives, such as WP:Inclusion criteria have been proposed. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- What about WP:Article inclusion? --Gavin Collins (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sure. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- What about WP:Article inclusion? --Gavin Collins (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Umm... a few alternatives, such as WP:Inclusion criteria have been proposed. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Support renaming
- To WP:Inclusion guidelines. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with the above, i.e. that an objective "inclusion guideline" absent of subjectively interpreted words like "significant" and "notable" is the correct way to go. No compelling reason has ever been presented for this name. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 21:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Support per my reasoning above. WP:Criteria for inclusion or WP:Inclusion criteria.- Per the discussion below, a straight rename to something like "inclusion criteria" would be inaccurate. I still feel a rename might be a good idea, if an appropriate and accurate name can be found. However as Protonk suggests below I think a new compilation guideline named "inclusion criteria" could (should?) be created to summarize all the different policies that could affect inclusion, which following my reasoning above would help curtail confusion, especially for new editors. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:39, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Either "Inclusion guidelines" or "Inclusion criteria" are fine. I never understood the "But then people will think that notability is the only content inclusion guideline" objection. If we rename N→Inclusion, no one is going to lose their mind and think that BLP, NOT or SPAM don't exist. I see no problem moving from "we only deal with important things" (both implied by the word notability and determined directly by some subject specific guidelines such as BIO, NB, FILMS), which obviously doesn't describe current practice to something more neutral. I disagree strongly that the more neutral place will somehow eliminate the need for significant coverage, as some proponents of the rename hope to do. But w/e. Protonk (talk) 22:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Renaming is a good idea. "inclusion" is much clearer. I think there could definitely be changes too, but renaming at the very least. Ddawkins73 (talk) 23:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Third choice. Ikip (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- To WP:third party sources or something of the like. I would oppose "inclusion criteria" because "inclusion" is just as vague as words like "importance", and slightly worse than "notability". The common refrain is "who are you to say what's notable/important?" That would merely change to "who are you to say what we should include?" But if we were to focus on third-party sources, we would realize that editors don't decide what is noteworthy, but reliable independent secondary sources do -- by making note of phenomena, which Wikipedians then summarize. Randomran (talk) 17:20, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- ^I like that one. Directly says the point of the guideline, rather than focusing on the value judgment. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:08, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the principle, but you'll never manage to summarise the whole point of the guideline. WP:significant coverage over a period in reliable independent and not purely local secondary sources is too unwieldly. Anyway third party evidence of existence isn't the sole measure of notability—my house isn't notable, even if there are significant descriptions of it in public Land registration and Zoning archives. I think we'd be better off sticking trying to agree what "Notability" means before trying to change the label. And BTW I'm instinctively an inclusionist and article rescuer rather than a deletionist. - Pointillist (talk) 19:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Third-party sources might not be the only measure of notability, but neither is the notability guideline. The point of the rename is to state what the guideline adds to the general plethora of guidelines and policies. Reliability of sources is covered in a separate guideline. This one focuses on the need for sources from third parties. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:54, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- I think your house would be excluded by WP:NOT. The guideline doesn't mean "everything that has third-party sources should be included", but "everything that is included should have third-party sources". Randomran (talk) 20:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the principle, but you'll never manage to summarise the whole point of the guideline. WP:significant coverage over a period in reliable independent and not purely local secondary sources is too unwieldly. Anyway third party evidence of existence isn't the sole measure of notability—my house isn't notable, even if there are significant descriptions of it in public Land registration and Zoning archives. I think we'd be better off sticking trying to agree what "Notability" means before trying to change the label. And BTW I'm instinctively an inclusionist and article rescuer rather than a deletionist. - Pointillist (talk) 19:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- ^I like that one. Directly says the point of the guideline, rather than focusing on the value judgment. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:08, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Support "Inclusion criteria". As long as this thing is going to stick around, it could at least get its name changed. The current name "notability" is simply unfitting because, well, it's bullshit. It goes almost entirely against the accepted notions of notability and instead uses its own little definition. It's insulting to the word "notability. - Norse Am Legend (talk) 02:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Support "Inclusion criteria". I frequently delete CSD candidates, and there is a lot of confusion among new editors on what notability means. That said, I also wouldn't oppose the name remaining the same as it is now. Karanacs (talk) 18:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Oppose renaming
- Oppose I think the potential for confusion with other "inclusion criteria" outways any benefit of a rename. People already "vote" "Keep-notable" at AfD's where other concerns, such as WP:OR or WP:BLP#1E have been raised and changing the name to "Inclusion" would only make this problem worse. It is true the "notability" is a term of art on Wikipedia whose contours do not exactly match that of its "real world" usage but that is true to a greater or lesser extent of all terms defined by policies/guidlines. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose as I pray that WP:NOTABILITY will never become WP:Article inclusion, WP:Article Exclusion, or worst of all WP:Article Selektion.--Gavin Collins (talk) 23:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- As its only 1 inclusion criterion. Mr.Z-man 00:02, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- As a general response to the "there are other inclusion criteria" concerns: There are other content inclusion policies, but isn't N the only article inclusion policy? And doesn't inclusion usually denote whole topics, not individual facts? I could be off on that, I haven't gone researching. It just seems to me that it's generally understood that inclusion refers to whole topics, and that no other policy deals with the issue of which topics to include. Just tossing that out there. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:00, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- It may be the most cited, but renaming it to "article inclusion guideline" suggests its the only possible one. Mr.Z-man 03:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Right, and again, in terms of the inclusion of entire articles, isn't it the only one? Equazcion •✗/C • 03:35, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Well, Mr. Z-man has a point. I didn't get to flesh it out at the last renaming RfC, but my view would be this. We have these content policies, some core, some not. We have (assuming that WP:N makes it through this RfC unscathed) inclusion guidelines based on those policies. I have no problem With us changing N itself to be a broader "Inc" with pointers to NOT/SPAM/NOR, or even transclusions of those sections (noting where policy begins and ends). Wikipedia:Civility works in a similar fashion. Portions of it are policy all by themselves, but the basic idea of "don't be a dick" stems from other behavioral policies and guidelines which are summarized at CIV. I think it would be inartful to just change the name alone. We would want to make sure that we were appropriately describing our inclusion policies/guidelines in general. Protonk (talk) 04:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) No, it isn't the only one. WP:NOT, for instance, specifies a number of types of articles that shouldn't be included, such as Tourist's guide to Paris or Gallery of Poussin paintings or Directory of automobile-repair shops in Chicago. Deor (talk) 04:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) Protonk, I'm not sure what you're saying. You mean that since N stems from, or follows logically from, other policies, that it can't be called the exclusive inclusion policy? Why not? If it's the only policy dictating which topics the encyclopedia can cover, then what's wrong with calling it (for instance) the "article inclusion policy"? We call a television a television despite the fact that it's made up of parts that aren't televisions. The sum becomes something different from the parts. What's wrong with naming it accordingly? Equazcion •✗/C • 04:21, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I agree that the things excluded by NOT as subjects which are not otherwise excluded by N are very narrow. I think the point Z-man is making (and the point made at the last renaming attempt) was that calling N the "inclusion criteria" might cause people to ignore some of the other inclusion criteria. I don't think it is very persuasive or hard to overcome, but it is a point which has to be addressed. Protonk (talk) 05:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- If we give people an opportunity to wikilawer something, they will use it to wikilawyer. I can see it now: "But WP:Inclusion guidelines doesn't say this isn't a valid article, so it must be." and interestingly enough, WP:Inclusion criteria has redirected to WP:NOT since 2006 Mr.Z-man 05:37, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I agree that the things excluded by NOT as subjects which are not otherwise excluded by N are very narrow. I think the point Z-man is making (and the point made at the last renaming attempt) was that calling N the "inclusion criteria" might cause people to ignore some of the other inclusion criteria. I don't think it is very persuasive or hard to overcome, but it is a point which has to be addressed. Protonk (talk) 05:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Deor: NOT is a content policy, though yeah, there are certain article titles that would impede them from ever containing anything other than content prohibited by NOT, which in turn gets them deleted. Thinking out loud. Articles can be deleted for content, which is something I hadn't thought of. So I guess I abdicate. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:34, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) Protonk, I'm not sure what you're saying. You mean that since N stems from, or follows logically from, other policies, that it can't be called the exclusive inclusion policy? Why not? If it's the only policy dictating which topics the encyclopedia can cover, then what's wrong with calling it (for instance) the "article inclusion policy"? We call a television a television despite the fact that it's made up of parts that aren't televisions. The sum becomes something different from the parts. What's wrong with naming it accordingly? Equazcion •✗/C • 04:21, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Right, and again, in terms of the inclusion of entire articles, isn't it the only one? Equazcion •✗/C • 03:35, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- It may be the most cited, but renaming it to "article inclusion guideline" suggests its the only possible one. Mr.Z-man 03:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- As a general response to the "there are other inclusion criteria" concerns: There are other content inclusion policies, but isn't N the only article inclusion policy? And doesn't inclusion usually denote whole topics, not individual facts? I could be off on that, I haven't gone researching. It just seems to me that it's generally understood that inclusion refers to whole topics, and that no other policy deals with the issue of which topics to include. Just tossing that out there. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:00, 11 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose renaming. It is what it is. Calling it something else does not address current concerns over its application. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 04:53, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose whilst notability is an inclusion guideline it is not the inclusion guideline. Articles can and are frequently excluded for other reasons such as WP:NOT, WP:BLP and so on. If we wanted to make a page on "inclusion guidelines" we would have to merge parts of all these pages into it, which would be impractical. Hut 8.5 07:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. It might make people feel good, but it won't actually achieve anything. - Mgm|(talk) 09:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose - just an attempt to dilute notability from another angle. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose - even if you rename it, english-as-a-first-language speakers will still talk about "notability". - Pointillist (talk) 14:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC) If we need to make it clear that wikipedia has a specific definition for the concept, I wouldn't object to calling it "Encyclopedic Notability". - Pointillist (talk) 09:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose — I, for one, am not for calling it in "intrenching tool" or an "manual geomorphological modification implement"—it's a freakin' shovel! Same applies here. MuZemike 17:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. "Notability" is a fine name—one that trips pleasingly off the tongue. Deor (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose I don't see anything wrong withe the current name, especially as it sums up what the guideline is about in one word Nick-D (talk) 07:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose renaming. It is concise and a good description of the guideline. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Jll (talk) 10:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose, no valid reason to rename given at all. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose - Clear, specific name describes the content. No compelling reason to rename it. --EEMIV (talk) 15:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Should WP:N be made Policy?
Wikipedia has developed a body of policies and guidelines to further our goal of creating a free encyclopedia. Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature.
Amazingly, Wikipeida policies do not define what topics are suitable for inclusion as a standalone article. Instead, WP:What Wikipedia is not makes it clear that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and just because a topic may exist or is useful does not automatically make it suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia.
To differentiate between what is indiscriminate, and what is not, Wikipedia employs the concept of '"Notability", an inclusion criterion based on encyclopedic suitability of a topic for a Wikipedia article. The principal underlying notability is the requirement for verifiable objective evidence to support a claim of notability.
Substantial coverage in reliable sources constitutes such objective evidence. By chance or by design, it is the same reliable sources that generations past have used to expand our knowledge of the world around us by understanding the research and works created by notable thinkers of the past, described by the metaphor "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants".
Since WP:What Wikipedia is not and WP:Notability are closely linked, such that they can be described different sides of same coin, I propose that the guideline Wikipedia:Notability should be promoted to a Policy in order to strengthen the First of the Five Pillars that define the character of Wikipedia.--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Supporters of the Proposal
- Support Only because judging from current practice, it seems to be policy already. Hell it seems to be gospel. Might as well fess up to that. In answer to Drilnoth's point below, that N is a guideline because exceptions need to be made where appropriate, that applies to any rule, and is not the difference between a guideline and a policy. "Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature." I think we can all agree that, in practice, Notability has fallen under the first category. Look over any particular day's worth of deletion discussion. Editors in those discussions who suggest Notability to merely be "advisory" are asking for a horse-whippin'. Every article is expected to satisfy Notability. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:27, 12 Feb 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I've seen it used as a gospel by deletionist, and by people disliking the article in question. I haven't seen it that often used by "followers" on articles they like. Not just WP:N, but also WP:V and WP:RS. People use all the tools they can get to achieve their goals, and when tools are not there, they use the special tool WP:IAR. Why I dislike WP:N is because in practice it is mainly supported by google search based sources, and although huge, google index is far from comprehensive. Also consider that most major news sites don't keep their archives! Many old news stories disappear, so go figure how to cite those, unless if you have microfilmed newspapers in your local library, and can remember the date of the news!! 212.200.240.232 (talk) 22:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Support. This is often treated as a policy anyway. Karanacs (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Objectors to the Proposal
- WP:NOT supports the first pillar of Wikipedia, as does WP:V, but not WP:N.
(Copied from talk page:) WP:N is a guideline because exceptions need to be made to it when appropriate. Policies like WP:NOT, WP:V, and WP:OR serve a similar purpose... the GNG is made to be an interpretation of them (although it does add in a few more inclusion criteria). The GNG's use is much more subjective, more so than any of those policies, so I think that it should be kept as a guideline. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2009 (UTC) - Note that I would think that if the community does want it like this with WP:N as policy and that logically leads to some "end" of the inc. vs. del. war, great. Personally, this is very wrong, because WP:N in its current form has several conflicts with other policies and guidelines, and also that by enforcing it in this way, we create a type of encyclopedia that may absolutely meet all of the mission goals buy may become less useful, and may see WP losing editors, readers, and the like to other projects. There is also the issue of how the SNGs play out if only WP:N is brought to policy, since the RFC on WP:N last showed that a topic meets the GNG or an SNG, not the GNG and the SNG. --MASEM 14:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Per Drilnoth. Sceptre (talk) 14:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- WP:N is better than nothing But it does mean that WP:N was great before hand. In some aspect WP:N is a kind of Tyrant and only fool give more power to one. KrebMarkt 17:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Comment A change from to guideline to policy can also be viewed as an indirect & back-handed way to alter the outcome of WP:FICT. Yes i'm an unbeliever of good faith. --KrebMarkt 19:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- I am so glad that Masem, Sceptre, and I can agree on something. Ikip (talk) 17:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. It would be one of the dumbest things ever done in Wikipedia history. Suggest withdrawing this section as either pointed or not serious. I do not respect or feel bound by it as guideline or nor would I or should anyone else if it were a policy per "ignore all rules". Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Not yet. Based on what I've seen at AfD, there just isn't a strong enough community consensus for it to be policy. --Explodicle (T/C) 21:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Not commented elsewhere on here (yet) but I strongly disagree with making notability a policy. There are too many areas where the community does not insist on meeting the GNG for an article to be allowed such as towns and villages, possibly WP:FICT and some areas where a SNG is met such as a professional sportsperson (despite what the SNG actually says). We do make exceptions to WP:N and we should not have to ignore all rules every time we do. Davewild (talk) 22:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- WP:N already has so many forks, and making it a policy would kind of bring new mess into WP, as GNG seems to be insufficient by itself when it needs all its 'children'. Policies should be self sufficient. ps. go to WP:N Academics which aims to be independent of GNG, and you'll see the beginning of the mess. 212.200.240.232 (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Not yet, maybe never. It's just not sound enough or temperate enough as it stands. Eventualism is a keystone to the success the project has shown. An article mentions a term. Someone tries linking it and it comes up red. Someone follows the redlink to search for related concepts and, seeing lots of hits, starts a stub. Seconds later, somebody else speedies it and we lose an opportunity to improve the encyclopedia. This happens over and over again. LeadSongDog (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Proposal: Replace Notability with two guidelines: Inclusion and Article Quality
WP:N is attempting to function as an inclusion guideline and as a content guideline (in terms of how we deal with articles). The problem is that this creates issues between dealing with topics and with articles. We still need to adhere to WP:V and WP:IINFO, but the high-level requirement of secondary sources means that coverage of areas outside of academics and mainstream information will be less than what it could be if the requirement was lowered to just verifiability and avoiding indiscriminate information. While discussing topics that are non-notable in a larger parent article is generally preferred, there is still resistance in having supporting articles of a notable topic which themselves may not be notable - a matter of significant difference between our summary style approach and the fact that notability is not inherited; it is because it is strongly asserted that secondary sources must be present for any article, even though notability is meant to be applied to a topic.
Thus, I propose that WP:N (in addition to whatever other policies and guidelines need to reflect this) to be split into two separate guidelines:
- Inclusion: WP can be broad in coverage of topics. Inclusion guidelines would include subject specific ones with well-defined whitelists and blacklists for what WP should and should not cover, respectively. Inclusion guidelines can also include topics that meet general standards for inclusion, such as what the current GNG states. The key part that must be asserted here is that inclusion is not equivalent of having its own article. What constitutes a good article is the other guideline, but when a topic has minimal sources or can't be expand beyond what is already present, it should be described in an article that places that topic with other topics to provide a more comprehensive picture. In this fashion, redirects are our friends, because any topic that is included should be a valid search result, just maybe not its own page.
- Article Quality: There is a certain quality that we expect across all articles, but we realize that no article is ever perfect; things like language, layout, and the like are impossible to judge at earlier states of an article's development. However, there are other aspects, such as comprehensiveness, sourcing, and adherence to content guidelines, that can be judged after the article is initially created. We discourage the generation of short articles that likely will remain permastubs, articles that excessively duplicate the content of other articles, or ones that can encourage speculation and original research if left unwatched. Thus in such cases, when it is clear that a topic on an article cannot move beyond these minimal quality guidelines, redirection is strongly encouraged to cover the topic in a larger context that will likely remedy these basics.
From the standpoint of how things are done now, replacing the GNG with these will change little for articles that currently meet the GNG or likely any of the SNGs; when in terms of inclusion, an article meeting the "significant coverage in secondary sources" requirement of the GNG would be worthy of inclusion regardless of field-specific blacklists, and would easily meet the Article Quality aspect due to sourcing (though there's still the possibility of editorially merging content if comprehension can be improved). The SNGs themselves form the initial basis for field-specific inclusion guidelines. It would be necessary to make sure our inclusion whitelists cover everything we believe WP should cover in a broad sense, while the blacklists specifically exclude what we consider to be indiscriminate information. A net result from this is likely very little to the lay reader, but will help to smooth things out for all the editors behind the scenes: it basically becomes a matter of how we sort all the little topic nuts and bolts into bins to make it easier to find and understand a topic. It is also a more positive approach and friendlier to newer editors, as the "inclusion" approach is a much more positive term than how the current GNG is written.
There would be a lot more work to fundamentally put this approach in place as to align the language with other policy and guidelines as well as the generation of inclusion white and blacklists, and a good definitive guideline for the low-level article quality. But it is a workable replacement for WP:N that would help us progress beyond the existing inclusionists-deletionists battles. --MASEM 16:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Oppose
- You still have to have inclusion criteria for topics on the "Whitelists" and the "Blacklists". Sounds like like we will need another guideline for that, i.e a guideline within a guideline. I think it would be better to address the issue of topic inclusion directly though WP:N, rather than indirectly through lists. Perhaps I have misunderstood the mechanics of the proposal? --Gavin Collins (talk) 18:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- I believe that WP:N currently refers to articles, not topics. Lists may have to be handled separately, but I reject the basic premise behind this proposal that spinouts etc need to have a topic that meets the inclusion criteria but that each article might not have to. Karanacs (talk) 20:13, 12 February 2009 (UTC)