Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

See also
Wikipedia talk:Writing better articles
Wikipedia talk:Article titles
Wikipedia talk:Quotations
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

"Mac vs. Mc" Discussion again

I'm sure this has been discussed several times here, but I have looked through the archives and I have seen no consensus. This leads to my query: Which would come first alphabetically, McKie or Mailei? Does McKie actually stand for Mackie, or is it just Mckie? Eagles 24/7 (C) 01:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Historically, we've always put "Mac" in the autosort of a person's article, so that Mc appears alphabetically as Mac. To me, this says Mc is Mac alphabetically.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 02:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Just my opinion, but Mc should not be before an Ma or Mb. It just makes sense, at least to me. RevanFan (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I suggest looking at the major telephone companies, e.g. BT. This seems to sort "Mac" and "Mc" is equivalent and the following letters do the real soring, e.g. "McCowan", "Macdonald", "McEwan", etc. --Philcha (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

And Verizon doesn't, sticking to straight letter-by-letter alphabetization. I tend to agree with the latter. The argumemt for the "Mc-as-Mac" sorting is that "Mc" is really just an abbreviation of "Mac". While that may indeed be the origin of the use, the effect is to essentially tell people they are spelling their own name wrong. I find that to be pompous, presumptious and, frankly, offensive. It is not the place of an unrelated know-it-all to tell someone that they are wrong about their own name. oknazevad (talk) 13:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Straightforward alphabetical sorting leaves no room for doubt or debate. There is no sensible basis for making this a special case of sorting by etymology, as it were. Barnabypage (talk) 13:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Another reason I think Mc is not Mac shortened is, do you think people would like it if you called them Mac when it's really Mc? Like, it's McBriar. That is definitely not Macbriar shortened. I also know someone who has Mc in her last name, and absolutely hates it when she is called "Mac". RevanFan (talk) 18:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Traditionally, libraries have sorted all variations of Mac (Mac, Mc, M', etc.) under Mac (Gaelic for "son") in their (card) catalogues. It may be a rule specified in the AACR2. But with the ease with which computers can carry out searches these days, I agree that it may not be necessary to stick to this rule. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 18:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Another thing. Who comes first on this page? http://www.neworleanssaints.com/team/roster.html RevanFan (talk) 23:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought the main reason for sorting "Mc" as if it were "Mac" is for the benefit of people who aren't sure which spelling to use. The different spellings apparently arose back in the day, when spelling was more lackadaisical than it is now, so it's not like there's much rhyme or reason to why one surname is "Mc" and the other is "Mac". Powers ^T 00:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Definitely think we need to alphabetize "Mc" without consideration of "Mac". If we give special consideration to this etymology, then a whole slew of other cases might eventually come up. Let's just keep it as by-the-book as possible. — CIS ^(talk | stalk) 00:28, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

By which book? Several books do exactly the opposite of what you suggest. Powers ^T 13:31, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

"Mc-" is a variant of "Mac-"; for that matter, so is "M'-" (as has been mentioned). Should this result in "M'banza-Kongo" coming before "Macintosh"? Or, to stay within "names", Daniel M'Naghten before Timothy McVeigh? I'm sure there are other names that start with "M'-" that I just can't think of.  Chickenmonkey  16:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

And that's the other problem with the old librarians' convention. It assumes that an "M'" or "Mc" is necessarily an abbreviation of "Mac" and of Celtic origin. While I don't know for a fact, I doubt the names mentioned here are Celtic names. Any such assumption is specious at best, especially in this ever-more connected world. the "file all as 'Mac'" convention is a relic that should be relegated to the dustbin of history. oknazevad (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorting Mc as Mac does have a point (see Powers' post), but it's confusing for readers from other countries, and you have to know that (say) "Wright" is spelt with a W to look for it, anyway... A. di M. (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Another thing. I just looked up the Saints' roster in the NFLPA database. They list Ma before Mc as well. RevanFan (talk) 17:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Isn't this kind of like how when there's a word with the first syllable that sounds like a vowel but isn't actually a vowel (such as "Hour"), you put "An" in front of it instead of putting an "A". Thought this was a hard-coded rule of thumb? RF23 (talk) 00:44, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

• Mac and Mc are identical. They both mean "son of" in Gaelic. In British phone books, Mc and M' are treated as if they were spelt "Mac" so that MacIntyre/McIntyre both come after MacDonald/McDonald and before MacMillan/McMillan. I can legally call myself either McIntyre or MacIntyre here in Scotland and in fact my family have interchanged both spellings for generations. More history here and here. However, computers work logically so that, unless you actually program the computer to recognise this fact, all Mac's would come before all Mc's and this appears to be what happens in most other phone books around the world. See Collation#Alphabetical_order for more on this issue. We as a community have to choose one way or the other and stick to it, IMO. Most Mc/Mac's these days stick to one spelling, anyway, (so there is no issue with having to list someone twice because they keep changing their mind about how to spell their name) and the advice is usually to alphabetise by spelling out letter by letter and ignoring old abbreviations etc, e.g. see here, here and here as real life examples of how this usually works (though they aren't really RS's!). Hence, Mabuchi, MacDonald, MacIntyre, MacKie, MacMillan, Mailei, McDonald, McIntyre, McKie, McMillan, Mellor, etc. Dab pages should still contain both spellings, however, since the names of many historical figures will have at least two different ways of being spelt depending which source (contemporary or modern) you look at --Jubilee♫clipman 01:50, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. RevanFan (talk) 02:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

One would like to point out that an encyclopaedia and a telephone directory are two different things. Could someone look at the practice of other encyclopaedias and report back? -- Evertype·✆ 07:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

see also Wikipedia_talk:Categorization_of_people#Ordering_of_Mac.2C_Mc_and_M.27.

I favour merging Mc* with Mac* and sorting all based on a (lower case) next letter. Although the information in a directory and an encyclopaedia is different, the function of sorting remains the same - to find an entry quickly and easily. There is no easy way to distinguish between the three "prefixes" in speech. Finavon (talk) 17:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

There's no easy way to distinguish "Rack" from "Wrack" either, so should they be sorted together too? A. di M. (talk) 17:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you'll prefer "Katherine" and "Catherine" as an example, to avoid a discussion of the difference in meaning. Art LaPella (talk) 18:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking about the family name Rack and the family name Wrack... A. di M. (talk) 19:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

(On the other hand, the fact that the same person in Scotland could call himself both McSomething and MacSomething would be a good reason to sort them together... A. di M. (talk) 07:39, 8 June 2010 (UTC))

From my experience there's a difference in usage between the Britain and America. In the UK, Mc and Mac are almost always sorted together. In the US, it's more common to see them sorted separately. I'd guess that some large English-speaking countries, like India and Australia, would follow the British example, while others, like Philippines and Nigeria, probably follow the US pattern. In other words, it's up for us to decide.   Will Beback  talk  21:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm from the U.S. and it looks completely unnatural to see Mc before Ma. I personally think it's ridiculous. Almost every article I've seen is using American English, so I think Ma should be before Mc. RevanFan (talk) 22:17, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh good, another chance for the Yanks and Brits to fight! Not.

Maybe the thing to do would be just keep it simple and use straight ASCII/Unicode ordering (except without distinguishing case), so that Mc and Mac are not treated specially at all. So Mack comes after MacEwan but before MacLane. This may not fit anybody's style guide, but at least it's simple and predictable. --Trovatore (talk) 22:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Have not seen Mc before Ma in any American English setting. Pats1 ^T/C 00:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

In America, I once came across a set of alphabetical index cards, like those used in old-fashioned library card catalogs, with all the letters of the alphabet plus a separate one for "Mc", as if it were it's own unique letter.   Will Beback  talk  01:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it technically possible to have two sort keys for the same article, so that McAdam would be listed both between Mabbet and Maddox and between Mbuyi and Meredith? That would be helpful both for readers who don't know whether someone is MacAdam or McAdam and for those who aren't familiar with the sort-Mc-as-Mac convention. (On the other hand, listing the same item twice in the same list would be a little, er..., inelegant.) A. di M. (talk) 07:39, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

That's not directly possible, but what we could do is categorize the redirects, so Henry McAdam would be sorted as "Mcadam, Henry" while the redirect Henry MacAdam would be included in the same categories as "Macadam, Henry". That would require keeping categories synchronized between the articles and their redirects, however, which is a tedious manual task (at least until someone writes a bot for it). Powers ^T 15:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Small change to MOSQUOTE

Under "Allowable typographical changes" at WP:MOSQUOTE, I'm about to change: "Styling of dashes—use the style chosen for the article: unspaced em dash or spaced en dash. (See Dashes, below.)" to: "Styling of dashes and hyphens: see Dashes, below. Use the style chosen for the article: unspaced em dash or spaced en dash." It's a small but important change, because hyphens aren't dashes (not in my dictionaries, anyway), so as written, our MOSQUOTE didn't allow changing hyphens to dashes inside quoted material, or by extension, inside titles. I believe that conforming even quoted material to WP:DASH is expected at FAC.

On another point, it's a shame that Google searches and spiders won't show a hit on a source title after you change the hyphen to a dash, so I'm recommending at my own wikiproject that we keep a page of common sources with the hyphens intact to catch these searches. - Dank (push to talk) 13:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Previous discussion here. Google searches won't show a hit after changing to a dash? If so my AWB edits have spread a lot of mispunctuation. But I think Google searches ignore punctuation, and so do other search engines. This Google search was for "north–south" with a dash, but it also found "North-South" with a hyphen, as well as "North South", "North & South", and "NorthSouth".

However, I just discovered that Google is apparently unable to find an article that already has a dash in the text you're searching for, even if you explicitly search for a dash. That strikes me as a drawback for dashes in general, not just in article titles. Art LaPella (talk) 21:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Try it and see. For example, googling site:en.wikipedia.org "British Battlecruisers 1914-1918" gives 2 hits, because there are only 2 en.wp pages where the hyphen hasn't been changed to a dash. Googling en.wp on ""British Battlecruisers 1914" gives all 6 en.wp pages where this book appears. Googling on site:wikipedia.org gives 16 hits, because wikipedias in other languages are leaving the hyphen intact. And the English Wikipedia is the only place I've seen someone change a hyphen in a book title to a dash, ever. - Dank (push to talk) 22:42, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Yup. Dashes don't interfere with the dead link problem discussed before, but they do interfere with looking for articles using a specific source, or any other search phrase that includes a dash. Let's see what the others think ... Art LaPella (talk) 23:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Google needs to stop being geeky. That's typewriter stuff, and shows the ignorance of many developers, who seem to be keen to privately claim that they know about language and style. Let's not bend to this ignorance, but simply ensure that a redirect page with hyphen is created. That is what it already advises. Tony (talk) 07:33, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, what the MoS already advises is: "Article titles with dashes should have a corresponding redirect from the title with hyphens". "British Battlecruisers 1914-1918" is the title of a book Wikipedia uses as a source, not as an article title. So how do you feel about citing that source as "British Battlecruisers 1914–1918" (with a dash), knowing that Google won't be able to list articles that cite that source because of the dash? Art LaPella (talk) 21:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

• I'm seeking advice by email from User:Noetica, who's on a wikibreak. Tony (talk) 12:14, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

and/or

The opening, which someone removed recently but has now been restored, is: "The construct and/or is awkward". I don't agree with this blanket statement. Tony (talk) 07:29, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

How about "The construct and/or should normally be avoided"? To me, it is like "he/she" (or worse "s/he"), "if/when", etc. Such constructs have their place (e.g. in lists or very short summaries) but should really be avoided in running prose. I do use these when I feel I have no choice but always cringe internally as they feel "wrong" --Jubilee♫clipman 21:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

BTW, the final paragraph of this section (Sometimes or is ambiguous in another way...) seems to have nothing to do with "and/or". Should that be moved elsewhere or should the section be renamed as Constructs involving the word "or"? --Jubilee♫clipman 21:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

How about we cut out any descriptive statements whatsoever and just say, "Avoid using and/or on Wikipedia"?

This is why I feel that the imperative should be the main mood for the MoS. We're not making statements, so we don't have to offer proof/sources. The point of the MoS is to tell users what to do on Wikipedia, so let's do that here. The point of the articles is to tell users the interesting histories of words and other subjects, so let's do that there (and source it). Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with a proscription. "And/or" is sometimes useful, and occasionally necessary. Tony (talk) 03:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's an example of something I would leave alone if my AWB software found it, from Neutering#Advantages: "Pyometra is prevented, either due to the removal of the organ (when ovariohysterectomy is performed) and/or because of the lack of female sex hormones (oestrogen and progesterone) after spaying." Taking the guideline at face value, the alternative would have to be "Pyometra is prevented, either due to the removal of the organ (when ovariohysterectomy is performed), or because of the lack of female sex hormones (oestrogen and progesterone) after spaying, or both." I think the "and/or" version is easier to understand because there's one less level of complication to remember throughout that complicated sentence. Art LaPella (talk) 05:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the MoS should be silent on it. It does have only limited appropriate use, but in a way that's irrelevant: like any other word or phrase, it should be challenged if used inappropriately. If there are hard and fast rules for what's inappropriate, by all means let's state them, but I suspect there aren't in this case. (On a side note, Art, I hope that if AWB found the above example, you might in fact leave "and/or" but remove "either"!) PL290 (talk) 08:52, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

"Either ... and/or"? I'd rather throw away that either, wouldn't you? A. di M. (talk) 08:56, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's another example of what I would consider appropriate usage (this time from the MoS itself): Some editors also like to provide euro and/or pound sterling equivalents, formatted as described in the next section. PL290 (talk) 09:02, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Do we really care that some editors don't do both and some editors do? I doubt it - so "or" alone would be fine. Or we could say "Some editors also like to provide one or more equivalents in other currencies, formatted as ...". There are many ways to express the actual point there without resorting to "and/or". — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Like any other phrase, "and/or" is never necessary: you can write around it. I would suggest always avoiding it, and I would remove it from any article that I edit, because 'and/or' does not have the desired encyclopedic tone. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:01, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

In my example, granted that "either" should be removed, how would you rewrite that one? I'm not a doctor, so I surely wouldn't want to remove an ovariohysterectomy or two just to make the truth table match a style guideline. Art LaPella (talk) 04:17, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Your rewrite with "or both" is fine. You could also say that the disease can be prevented by removal of the organs, by a lack of sex hormones, or by a combination of the two. My point is that "and/or" is just as inappropriate in a scholarly work as any other contraction would be. It's not a matter of "correctness"; it's a matter of code-switching into an appropriate writing style. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

• cough* "Use and/or sparingly on Wikipedia"? 74.105.135.235 (talk) 20:02, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

"And/or" is redundant. When using “or” without “either” the possibility of choosing all of the above is implied. “You can have cherry pie, apple pie, or chocolate cake” means you can have any number of the given choices. “You can have either cherry pie, apple pie, or chocolate cake” means you can only choose one. Using and/or is amateurish at best and should NEVER be used on wikipedia unless it is a direct quote. — Redsxfenway (talk) 05:51, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary:or agrees with you on the definition of "or", but several other dictionaries disagree. Dictionary.com, for instance, says "1. (used to connect words, phrases, or clauses representing alternatives): books or magazines; to be or not to be." It defines "alternative" as "1. a choice limited to one of two or more possibilities ..." (emphasis added; one, not "any number"). As the Logical disjunction article puts it: "In ordinary language 'or' sometimes has the meaning of exclusive disjunction", hence if "and/or" is verboten we need some other way to specify an inclusive or. Art LaPella (talk) 06:28, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I was pinged here by Redsx. PL290 has provided at least one good use for "and/or". Sure, no one wants to encourage its use, but sometimes it's the neatest option where it's important to stress addition or alternative. I'd either be silent on it, as suggested above, or just say "usually best avoided". My whole point in starting this thread was that the banning of "and/or" and its blanket characterisation as "awkward" is unnecessarily cut-and-dried. Tony (talk) 09:29, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It's just unnecessarily oblique; whether "and/or" seems awkward is irrelevant. We should just characterize it as "inappropriate for a scholarly work". Sometimes "ain't" sounds nice in a sentence, but we shouldn't use that either. There are numerous other ways to express inclusive "or" when it's necessary. — Carl (CBM · talk) 10:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

• I cannot imagine a clause in which "ain't" "sounds nice"; it is oral language, anyway. Why do you say that "and/or" is always inappropriate in "scholarly" registers, and why do you class all WP article text as "scholarly"? Tony (talk) 12:31, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Because I believe those things to be true. If I submitted a paper with the phrase "and/or" I would expect the copyeditor to remove it. Natural language is very expressive and there is no difficulty avoiding that phrase. So for us it's entirely a matter of code-switching into appropriate usage, and as a native speaker and scholar I know "and/or" is not it. If you don't like "ain't", "irregardless" is another example of a commonly-used word that would not be appropriate for us to use in a Wikipedia article. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with CBM that it is unnecessary to describe and/or as "awkward" or anything else in this MoS. My own opinion is that such assertions belong in the articles (and/or), where they can be attributed to sources. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Back to zany em dashes for Canadian ridings

I recollected it was discussed a while ago ... here, in fact. There appears to be no resolution to the fact that WP articles, in titles and main text, have been using the em dashes that the Canadian Electoral Commission uses, such as this highway stuck in the middle of the item: Capilano—Howe Sound. See the opening sentence, too, for what looks like an em dash as interruptor, the way MoS prescribes as the primary option. And the MoS prescribes also a spaced en dash for this and many other of these items, where there is a space within either or both items.

So I busily moved a few articles, then discovered this has been done before, back and forth, in some cases. I've stopped pending your advice.

I'm sure WP has a habit of doing what it finds best for the online, international context, even if it sometimes means overriding some electoral commission's frightful practices. I see also that the practice is not really consistent within the riding articles: there are hyphens, too. Tony (talk) 12:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

It its official publications, Elections Canada and parliamentary documents are very consistent in using either m-dashes or two hyphens. They only use single hyphens for compound French names, such as Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière or Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine and they never use n-dashes. I agree that in many uses other than Canadian electoral districts we should use n-dashes because they look better (I'v. moved many articles about towns to names with n-dashes), but in this case the subject has expressed a clear preference for m-dashes, and those are what are seen in publications, so I think we should go with the existing usage. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 18:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with Arctic on this. The current name scheme is a direct copy of the system used by Elections Canada. While their scheme is persuasive, it's not controlling. Wikipedia is free to alter the dashes used in names to suit its own guidelines. I agree with Tony on this, and Wikipedia should be internally consistent with itself. Imzadi 1979 → 04:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that we aren't bound by the typographical conventions of the Canadian government. These should be en dashes, rather than em dashes. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 05:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedia isn't bound by the typographical conventions of the Canadian government but in this case the use of em dashes makes the structure of the name clear and unambiguous. In addition, and I don't know how important this is, en dashes in this situation are a problem with a font like Lucida Grande with its long hyphen: Lotbinière–Chutes-de-la-Chaudière or Lotbinière – Chutes-de-la-Chaudière. I agree with Arctic. Modal Jig (talk) 11:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

So the electoral agency uses double hyphens too for the names of ridings? Now that is trashy; sorry, it's when people from the typewriter age, either programmers or senior officers, make careless and unquestioned decisions about a major aspect of language such as this that dreadful typography becomes entrenched. Are you suggesting double hyphens should also receive a vote of confidence from WP just because some agency uses them? The MoS, may I point out, gives editors carte blanche to change such urchins as double hyphens within quotations into properly formatted punctuation; I don't see this as any different. And I do see that someone has marched in and reverted the moves; unwise, since it is under debate here. Tony (talk) 12:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

In most publications they use m-dashes, and when they use double-hyphens, their intent is still clear: double hyphens are used by people who intend to use an m-dash but don't know how or are too lazy. As Modal Jig points out, there is a practical reason for this preference. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 15:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't this basically come down to WP:COMMONNAME. The common name clearly for these ridings includes the m-dash. -DJSasso (talk) 15:55, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

A double hyphen commonly means an en dash—certainly in LaTeX. Tony (talk) 16:16, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I've never seen a double hyphen used to indicate a range or to indicate "and"; lazy people use hyphens for that. I only see double hyphens as a stand-in for abrupt breaks in sentences, which is a function of the m-dash. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 16:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

No but they usually use an m-dash in most of their writings, as do newspapers up here. -DJSasso (talk) 16:40, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Djsasso. This is about what is locally used, and we used emdashes in Canada. I reverted the edits, because unless you plan on moving all the articles at once, there will be inconsistency. -- Earl Andrew - talk 23:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

For the record, there are some nits to pick. Elections Canada is most definitely not a "government agency", it is directly responsible to parliament, in the same fashion as the Office of the Auditor General. Their list of ridings here has no double hyphens in lieu of the mdash, at least that I can find. Neither does Hansard. Perhaps ArcticGnome could furnish an example of its use? LeadSongDog come howl! 15:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I think "government agency" in this case was used in the broad, governing-authority sense, not in the cabinet-department-agency narrow sense. Either way, it appears the emdashes are part of the official, legal names of these constituencies as determined by the relevant authority. Therefore, we should continue to use the same, in the name of accuracy. oknazevad (talk) 05:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

LeadSongDog, Elections Canada's main database of riding names uses the double hyphens (almost every province has one in the first couple entries) and today's Hansard uses m-dashes (the very first person to speak is from Lévis—Bellechasse). —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 07:23, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I can see an argument for retaining these poorly formatted em dashes, but only just. It's disruptive when editors see a presumed breach of the style guide, as they will continue to do, and go in to make changes. Perhaps an editorial note at the top of such articles would alert them. I couldn't abide by double hyphens on WP. Tony (talk) 07:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree with you about double hyphens; that's just some Elections Canada webmaster being lazy and ignoring the agency's own policy. I guess we could put a note explaining style usage, kind of like we have a hatnote template explaining the order of Korean names. Although I'd bet that 99% of casual readers couldn't tell you the difference between and n-dash and an m-dash anyway, so the note would just be there for our fellow punctuation sticklers. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 08:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

• Yeah, I've just had phone advice from User:Noetica (currently on a wikibreak) that the en dash should prevail. While I agree with him, I can see that local editors are keen to retain the em dash. There's a job for someone to add an invisible editorial note (but there are an awful lot of those articles, yikes). [Punctuaton stickler? Yep, but stickling is what makes language stylish and easy to read.] Tony (talk) 09:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
  • If you really wanted to make it easy to read, you'd use two hyphens, delete every instance of either dash form, and avoid french accents. WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGVAR are what you should be looking at. It is the common form, and the Canadian form. 70.29.212.131 (talk) 20:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Inanimate object pronoun usage

I was reading an article about a battleship, and the article kept referring to the ship as "she". I searched the MoS, but I couldn't find any specific guidance on this. My instincts tell me that using "she" for an inanimate object is ridiculous and that I should change it to "it". But I can't because I am not certain. Any editors out there with some specialized knowledge? Thanks. fds^Talk 04:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ships are traditionally given feminine attributes, including pronouns. Imzadi 1979 → 04:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Aye I know. I'm just wondering if that's how we editors should handle it at Wikipedia. fds^Talk 05:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The issue has been discussed, but I am not aware of any clear decision having been made. Wikipedia needs a clear and reasonable decision-making process. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I was brow-beaten for suggesting that ships should not be treated explicitly as objects that men control (i.e., fuck). That is, in the end, the implication of the female "she" as ship. There was strong objection. Tony (talk) 12:42, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's a pretty twisted reason for someone to name a ship after their mother! Seriously though, there is no single WP:WORLDWIDE practice on this. Why should WP differ? We should follow the sources, which will in turn usually reflect local customs.LeadSongDog come howl! 13:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that even if the tradition of referring to ships as "she" originally had anti-feminist connotations, right now it is just a thing that a lot of people do. I don't consider it to be incorrect English, but it is a touch fanciful. Our only question should be whether referring to ships as "she" fits Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I think it scandalizes encyclopedic tone. fds^Talk 21:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

For those of us who don't read minds, could Fdssdf please explain what that means and on what policy basis "I think" differs from a personal preference? LeadSongDog come howl! 15:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Or a bit less confrontationally, given that 1. an opinion about tone is subjective and may be difficult to summarize concisely, 2. "I think" is an opinion which can only sometimes be restated as "I prefer", 3. it should be OK to state a personal preference until reliable sources or at least a wider consensus has been demonstrated (how else would we find that consensus?), and 4. "scandalized" is exaggerated; no opinion on pronouns compares to Watergate; almost nobody else cares except on this page: given all that, why do you think "she" for a ship is the wrong tone? Art LaPella (talk) 18:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. It is okay to express personal opinions and preferences here so long as we make it clear that that's what we're doing. "I think" is one way to indicate that a following statement is an opinion (or a guess). Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

"Reviewer" userright

The "reviewer" userright, allowing you to to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).

The Flagged Protection trial is going to be starting very soon, and non-admins who have had access to edit semi-protected articles since roughly Day 4 of their editorship will now have their edits going into a vetting queue unless they are granted autoreviewer and/or edit reviewer permissions by an administrator. This will have a significant impact on editors who have, for years, been working on quality content. More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you have not already done so, please request this "right" at WP:PERM/RW or ask any administrator. Cheers, Dabomb87 (talk) 15:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Category:Lists of popular pages by WikiProject

You may wish to refer to the new category Category:Lists of popular pages by WikiProject.—Wavelength (talk) 21:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe there can be Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style/Popular pages.

More information is at User:Mr.Z-man/Popular pages FAQ.—Wavelength (talk) 23:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Headings with numerals

When a section title begins with a numeral, should word following it be capitalized or not? For instance, is it "2008 Local elections" or "2008 local elections"? I would figure it's the latter, but the important thing is to have a consistent rule. -Rrius (talk) 03:59, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I figure the same, but my search for a rule or guideline was not successful. I did find a long list of articles with the following word not capitalized. Please see this list.—Wavelength (talk) 05:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

DocumentHistory template--do we need to rethink?

Some editors here recently expressed interest in establishing a system for keeping track of MoS document status history. During that discussion, I created the template {{DocumentHistory}} for this purpose. An editor has since objected to its use at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), proposed its removal, and in fact removed it, twice. I'm not aware of anyone else objecting to it or supporting that removal, but I feel I should now ask all interested parties to consider again whether such a template is indeed something that will be useful to us. I would like to think it is. I hope we can discuss and resolve any issues that may currently be being caused by its use. PL290 (talk) 22:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)