Arbitration Committee proceedings

Request name	Motions	Initiated	Votes
Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area		6 November 2024	0/5/0

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Yasuke	13 Nov 2024

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Arbitration enforcement referral: Nableezy, et al	none	(orig. case)	7 November 2024
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Request to amend prior case: Speed of light

Initiated by Georgewilliamherbert (talk) at 05:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Speed of light arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Motion 4 - Brews ohare advocacy restrictions
Motion 5 - Restriction expiration

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Count Iblis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
David Tombe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Likebox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hell in a Bucket (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Motions Motion 4
Proposed: Motion 4 ("Count Iblis, David Tombe, Likebox, and Hell in a Bucket are indefinitely restricted from advocacy for or commenting on Brews ohare, broadly construed. Should any of these editors violate this restriction, they may be blocked for up to 24 hours by any uninvolved administrator. After three blocks, the maximum block length shall rise to one week.") is reinstated, to run concurrently with and expiring simultaneously with Motion 6's 12-month topic ban on Brews Ohare.

Statement by Georgewilliamherbert

As evidenced by discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light immediately following the Committee's reimposition of Brews' topic ban, for a 12 month new duration, the additional parties who were previously (now expired by motion) enjoined from advocacy on Brews' account have resumed disruptive advocacy on the exact same terms and approach as before. Requests to stop have been rejected, and as discretionary sanctions are not in place on the article admins evidently can't reimpose them on individual authority at this time.

I believe that reimposing them is appropriate under the circumstances. This case has been decided, no matter what the party and supporters feel. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Replying writ large to several parties, Carcharoth, and other commenters...

Focusing more narrowly would certainly potentially be appropriate.

Regarding asking / suggesting / prodding people to change directions into things they can be productive in, that was done by several in the thread which started this, including myself. It went so stunningly well that I ended up doing this amendment... The discussion included outright refusal by some of the people previously enjoined to admit that the prior advocacy ban had been in effect, and that such behavior by them was obviously not just OK but righteous and necessary.

Perhaps with the amendment proposed the message is getting across that more productive pursuits would be preferable for everyone. I certainly don't see this as a good solution. But it looked for a couple of days like the bad old days of incessant advocacy were back, and if that was going to happen, there's no reason not to haul out the big gun again and point it.

If not firing it is ok now, then let's not fire it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To explicitly say something I should have been more explicit about last night - David Tombe's behavior now does not seem to be problematic, and I am happy to drop him off the proposed restrictions list. I cut and pasted the proposal from the prior amendment, when I should have been more selective. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Hell in a Bucket -

The four of you were previously indefinitely enjoined from advocacy of this nature. There was obviously at that time a problem severe enough that you convinced Arbcom that there needed to be a specific restriction on the four of you continuing that advocacy.

That has since been amended to expire, but you seem to be missing the message. The message is, Arbcom and the community do have the right to act if disruptive behavior persists; that Arbcom and the community previously found this behavior by the then-four of you to be sufficiently disruptive to intervene; and that you and Count Iblis were at it again.

Persistent misbehavior after prior sanctions has a lower threshold and a stronger response, in general on Wikipedia. Someone who's been blocked for edit warring or disruption may find 3RR now effectively a 2RR restriction on them and then 1RR, and a first block of 24 hrs goes to 48 then a week then a month.

In the context of you and Count Iblis going back to the same behavior you previously were enjoined from doing, and are now defending again, perhaps I was somewhat premature in this amendment. But if you feel entitled to keep it up much longer then you're wrong.

The restriction I'm proposing has already been found necessary and applied to you. Reimposing it for repeat offenses is not a big deal.

If the repeat offenses have stopped and it's not worth any more preventive measures then great. If you can live by Carcharoth's comments below, great.

If you feel that it's simply a gross imposition on your WikiRights - again, it's been imposed against you before.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

What? One is not allowed to express dissent with the disgraceful measures against Brews? Or what? This is just going to lead to more and more contributors being banned. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 08:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Likebox is permabanned of his own choice, David Tombe has done nothing in the recent cases involving Brews and Hell in a Bucket just commented on the outcome. Count Iblis's AN/I thread on this was perhaps ill advised but that's already over with. So I really don't think this is at all necessary now.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 08:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that I have been advised to fight ArbCom “tooth and nail”, and that the named editors should therefore be subjected to sanction is wrong. First, no diffs support the claim. Second, suppression of comment on the basis that it is disruptive advocacy is disingenuous. It is really an example of killing the messenger. Third, I don't have to take any advice offered, even were it offered. Fourth, the only disruption that could result from my taking bad advice (were it offered) is that I would become sanctioned. On that basis, bring action against Stifle for his advice, and AGK for his poor advocacy, which led to very clear harm. ArbCom has demonstrated again and again that they will sanction me under virtually any possible pretext, so claiming some concern for my welfare is, well, worth a rueful smile. Brews ohare (talk) 17:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Carcharoth has taken this venue as an opportunity to make various suggestions as to how Brews_ohare could attempt to “redeem” himself, penance for his sins that “might” be looked upon with favor, but no guarantees. This advice belongs on my Talk page, not here. Suggesting that there is a lot of WP that is open to me lying outside of my areas of expertise hardly mitigates castration, if that is what is intended. As for redemption: ArbCom has been extremely selective in evaluating my activities, ignoring myriads of helpful contributions I have made to instead value complaints in a few instances by a few editors with a history of altercation, and blow them up into a huge topic ban. ArbCom's one-sided view of matters and overreaction to complaints appears to be an idée fixe, unlikely to change. Brews ohare (talk) 15:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This motion is unfortunately partly my fault, since I made the snarky comment[1] (a countersnark to Count Iblis's snarky comment[2]) that triggered the exchange leading to GWH's request. Count Iblis et al had been pretty well behaved in the amendment discussion earlier, as far as I noticed (I admittedly wasn't paying close attention) so I want to clarify that my suggestion for the involved parties to stay away from each other wasn't especially directed at the "advocates". Rather, I commented because in these past couple of actions, Brews's opponents, while technically "right", seemed way too eager to rush to AE when Brews messed up, rather than (say) first leaving Brews a talk message asking him to undo the problematic edit. Or better yet, try to disengage from Brews completely and let other users deal with it if problems occur. When we restrict an editor, the idea is not that we actually want to ban them and pounce on every possible slip. We're instead trying to channel their editing energy away from past problem areas, in the hope of getting good editing from them in other areas.

Collapsed general suggestions about Brews not directed at immediate amendment request (self-edit)

As for Brews, I think he is capable of good editing, I hope the broad physics topic ban doesn't last a whole year, and I agree with Cool Hand Luke that Brews's physics editing problems have mostly been in some fairly narrow areas in physics and that most of his other physics editing has been fine and that the restriction can be narrowed to allow more of that. One thing Brews should really do is stop testing boundaries. That's a typical behavior of stubborn topic-banned editors and it never ever works. (Captain Occam is up to the same thing in another thread). Mostly though I wish that Brews would get some better friends. In the original Speed of Light arbitration, Brews refused to enter a mentorship with another editor, but maybe he could reconsider that. Mattisse (an editor who I liked) was in an arbcom-approved mentorship and I think it helped, even though it didn't work out in the end and she got banned. I would not extrapolate from her final outcome to Brews's, since she did far crazier things than Brews has ever done, so in Brews's case we can still hope to get just the positive parts of the setup. One aspect of Mattisse's mentorship was that when anyone thought she broke a restriction, they were advised to complain to her mentor instead of AE, and the mentor could then often get things straightened out. This was a benefit to her since it protected her from her enemies pouncing on things as people are now pouncing on Brews. I think Brews would be better off with a deal like that, than with the situation we have now. Even without an official mentorship, it would be great if Brews could seek and listen to informal advice from more sensible editors than the ones formerly under the advocacy restriction.

Regarding the current motion, given my role in it I can't bring myself to suggest anything other than that Arbcom let the thing slide this time, and just advise the targets to put a sock in it in rather strong terms. I supported the original restriction[3][4] and I think it was the right thing at the time and that it helped, and that the rationale I gave back then still seems ok to me in retrospect. Arbcom should indeed be open to reinstating it if it again becomes necessary. But as before, a restriction like that is a fairly drastic step, to be reserved for really persistent disruption or bad influence. 67.119.3.248 (talk) 04:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hell in a bucket--there are areas where Brews is a real expert, and we want his contributions in those areas. There are other areas where he only thinks he is an expert, and that has caused a lot of trouble. 67.119.3.248 (talk) 06:23, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Count Iblis

There never has been much of an advocacy for Brews from my side. I did utter my strong disagreements with the topic ban when it was imposed in late 2009. But in later discussions I tried to propose pragmatic solutions. It isn't much different now. JohnBlackburne is perhaps right when he says that I perhaps shouldn't have started that AN/I thread. A constructive discussion with Jehochman, Brews and me followed here, it would have been better had that discussion started straightaway, of course.

Note that this time, I haven't even said that I disagree with the topic ban. Sure, I do disagree, but before I wrote this sentence right now, I hadn't even said it here on Wikipedia explicitely. While you can read my long discussions with Brews on my talk page and guess this, a completely neutral Wikipedian who hadn't heard of Count Iblis before, couldn't have concluded this. I do after all suggest that Brews make the contributions he likes to make here, on Wikiversity or Wikibooks instead. I already explained my arguments in detail on my talk page, so there is no need to explain everything here. It suffices to say that Brews, Likebox and me share the same view about educational articles that the wider Wikipedia community does not agree with. Count Iblis (talk) 15:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very long reply to Georgewilliamherbert which is necessary in order to take away suggestions of past misconduct on my part.

Georgewilliamherbert: "The message is, Arbcom and the community do have the right to act if disruptive behavior persists"

I agree 100%

Georgewilliamherbert: "that Arbcom and the community previously found this behavior by the then-four of you to be sufficiently disruptive to intervene"

Wrong, certainly as far as my behavior goes. It is true that a motion was passed, but without any valid grounds as far I was concerned. The motion could not be contested and I chose not to object to it, as I explained in detail on my talk page. The fact that you now intent to use the past motion as an argument without presenting any facts, shows that behaving in a reasonable way in that case (i.e. agreeing to disagree and moving on), may be problematic in the future as it can be seen as admitting guilt. Some Admin may dig up old dirt and use it against you in an unreasonable way. I find this very problematic.

Georgewilliamherbert: "and that you and Count Iblis were at it again."

This partially builds on the previous mistaken assumption and is thus wrong. What I do find troubling, though, is that you seem to see in something that I wrote on that Notification page that is problematic. But I don't have a clue what that could be. I.m.o., if someone makes a statement that is seen to be problematic, one should notify the editor on his/her talk page and ask for clarification and then settle the matter there. Adminstrative intervention should follow if it is clear that there is disruption and that this is going to continue without intervention.

I think I have made it clear already 3 or 4 times what my opinion of Brews is right now. Note that Jehochman supported my advice to Brews to make his physics contributions to Wikibooks and Wikiversity. So, I'm not sure how I'm advocating for Brews in a problematic way, let alone in a disruptive way.

If I do my best to WP:AGF and think hard at what is going on here, I can only come to this conclusion. You as an experienced Wikipedian and an Admin know that mere advocacy shouldn't get you in trouble. You may have seen cases of problematic advocacy and even in these cases people typically are not sanctioned (I've seen quite a few of such cases). Then you see that there was a motion passed against us, so you draw the conclusion that we must have done something enormously outrageous for this to have happened. So, in your eyes, we are extremely dangerous persons. The slightest hint of advocacy on our part must thus be fought with all possible means.

Then, how can we prevent this from happening? Clearly, not by staying silent. While we should agree to not do anything that others object to on rational grounds, what we should not do is let mistaken perceptions of past bad behavior pass unchallenged. This is a public Wiki-board read by many people, so your suggestions of misconduct on my part may be picked up by others, leading to further trouble in the future. Therefore, this very long reply belongs here. Count Iblis (talk) 21:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hell in a Bucket

I would again ask for proof in the forms of diffs that Iblis or myself have engaged in disruptive or otherwise broke policy. I've asked several times but no one seems willing or able to do so. I see this motion as a retailatory response for disagreeing appropriately and not being willing to be lead around blindly. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@67.119.3.248, my question to you is what are we advocating? I've not been involved in Brews dispute until somone, I believe Sandstein had made a overstep on the Arbcom enforcement and he asked for clarification. After that it degenerated into accusations of bad advocacy. No one is telling Brews to do anything. My only concern was overstepping admin authority and the fact that while there is a vocal group of people that defend some of the things that happen for Brews there is a whole different group that howls for his head. I'm getting sick of it frankly on both sides. I was happy to see that some of those editors did come here and say this was a poorly thought motion. I do agree in principal that there should be someone who can govern these disputes that will be able to fairly look at both sides without making a full trial of it every time we go through stuff like this. Sometimes I think that wikipedia scorns experts, it's a love hate relationship though. We need experts to help with their expertise but the encyclopedia is also open to everyone so it doesn't always mix, inferiority complexes maybe? I'm not directing that at anyone just a general observation of possible issues here.

Reply to Georgewilliamherbert What message are you trying to send? To not disagree or that you will silence people? I take offense to your threats of a block and refusal to back up any of your claims that this was nec. Have you considered that while you may have been trying to help things there was no need to threaten or posture? All this does is make things worse, Iblis has been civil during this entire thing, I have not but I have made a hard effort to moderate my tone to focus on the issues I perceive, but comments like "there's no reason not to haul out the big gun again and point it" is not helpful in the slightest because it's clearly meant and insinuated as a means of intimidation imho. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 07:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General Comment, It's not entirely helpful to say that the first was entirely not needed but it didn't go the entire way that was needed to fully resolve the problem. For my part I made several references that were not always civil. However the opposite side has a sense of right and sense of duty that does not help tone down the fire. I'm sorry but I really think is a problem here is the perception that everything we do and have done have always been wrong however I'm more concerned with this incident and show whether or not wrongs perceived or not can be brought to the light of day within this conversation and incidents scope. The finger pointing back and forth is really getting old and is entirely not working for either side. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Headbomb

I don't see why this is needed. The advocacy ban was needed a few months ago because of the constant appeal, re-appeal, wikilawyering, etc... Tombe hasn't said thing about a thing here, Likebox is indef banned, Ohare kept to the enforcement request and participate in the "discuss the motion" after the closure as asked some people some clarification (which is again fine and normal), and I don't see what Iblis did that kept pouring oil on the fire. Threads like this however, does pour oil on the fire. There was an AE, and some people were unhappy with the result, and discussed and protested, as is usual. IMO, there's no sign that the advocacy problem is resurfacing, so there is no need to "nip it in the bud" or whatever. In other words, what JohnBlackburne said. Close this thread and let's be done with it. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 02:55, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Dr.K.

I am disappointed with GWH whom I consider a thoughtful and capable admin. But in this case HiaB and Count Iblis have done nothing to merit such a drastic proposal, in fact they have been constructive in their comments and overall approach. The worst mistake in bringing this proposal here however is the case of David Tombe. As Headbomb and John Blackburne already mentioned, David Tombe has done absolutely nothing to merit this. He has fastidiously stayed away from Brews as if Brews did not exist. David Tombe complied with the advocacy sanctions and continued complying even after they were lifted. He has conformed in every possible way to these sanctions and then some. He actually fell silent. By going after him what message do we send to those who reform? That we'll get them anyway? Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 03:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by David Tombe

I would agree with what Count Iblis says above. There was no behaviour in the first place that remotely warranted the original advocacy ban. It seemed rather like an attempt to give a free run to those who wanted to advocate adversely against Brews ohare by silencing those who had been speaking out in his defence. On my own part, I was very little involved in the period leading up to the original advocacy motion back in March 2010, and I was quite surprised that my name had even appeared on the original advocacy motion. I seem to recall that when I saw my name on the original motion back in March, that I said that I would support the motion if Brews's opponents were also named. But my perfectly reasonable compromise was completely brushed aside.

I think it's important, in order to prevent any distortion of history in the minds of readers, to remind readers that the original advocacy restriction was unprecendented and without any justification whatsoever, and in fact it was a matter of great shame for ARBCOM which I'm sure that they would all like to quickly forget about. It's time for everybody to move on from this unfortunate episode. David Tombe (talk) 10:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Collapsing to provide a shorter response. Carcharoth (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the frustration Georgewilliamherbert feels, but I think a different approach is needed here. I suggest that: (1) Brews tells those named above to stop commenting on the merits or otherwise of his topic ban or anything to do with his case; (2) Those who have commented this time around actually really try and help Brews by finding other (completely unrelated) areas he is willing to work in so he can come back to ArbCom in a few months with some quiet and productive work behind him to justify modifying the topic ban (I would go so far as to say if they were genuinely concerned with helping Brews, they would have done this in the first place); (3) Georgewilliamherbert and others also try and help turn things around here. Having said that, I agree absolutely that advocacy of the "this is a terrible decision, you must fight it tooth and nail" sort is deeply unhelpful, but advice (not advocacy) of the "why not work on this article here", directed at Brews, not at ArbCom, would actually be helpful. I should also note that responses to this suggestion along the lines of "no, we won't do this and we will advocate for whoever we see fit" will end with me supporting Georgewilliamherbert's initial suggestion. Finally, I am not going to suggest any articles myself, or pre-approve any articles, as Brews is quite capable himself of selecting articles to work on that have nothing to do with physics, but I would say be wary of sciences or disciplines that have a large overlap with physics. There are plenty of sciences that have little to do with physics, but have articles that would benefit from the attention of someone with a background in science. And there are also plenty of articles that have nothing to do with science. I would also point out that Brews (or those wanting to give him advice) could voluntarily impose on him(self) the talk page restriction he suggested (for all talk page whatever the topic), and come back in several months and say "look, it worked in other topic areas, can we try using this restriction on the talk pages of physics articles as well?". Creative solutions like this are good, but they all need to be done away from the area of the current topic ban. Provide concrete evidence that such restrictions on Brews work elsewhere, and we may then consider them for Brews for physics articles. Carcharoth (talk) 11:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've collapsed the above as I don't wish to be patronising to Brews. Both the above and the comments at the noticeboard talk page were a genuine attempt to advise him on his options here. Clearly the time is not right for this, but I hope he may consider it at some point in the future. Getting back to the topic here, my view is that nothing needs doing here, though GWH filing this can be seen as more of a warning than anything else. Not intimidation, though I can understand how it can be seen that way. Administrators need to be able to warn without being accused of intimidation, though equally they should be sensitive to being seen as acting in an intimidating manner. Carcharoth (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree in general with Carcharoth, don't think it's necessary at this time to reimpose the advocacy restriction. SirFozzie (talk) 01:26, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: ChildofMidnight

Initiated by Beeblebrox (talk) at 19:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: ChildofMidnight arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

ChildofMidnight banned

1) ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs) is banned from Wikipedia for one year.

Passed 10 to 0, 03:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

[5] (diff of notification of this thread on Username2's talk page)

Amendment 1

Due to continued sockpuppetry and repeated resetting of the one year ban, ChildofMidnight is now indefinitely banned from editing Wikipedia.

Statement by Beeblebrox

Due to multiple incidents of sockpuppetry it seems clear that merely re-setting CoM's ban each time is not an effective remedy. I therefore suggest that the ban be extended to an indefinite full site ban. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to NW: I suppose it could, but I thought it best if there was no disconnect between the block and the ban. Otherwise when the current year of banning was over it might be expected that the block would simply be lifted. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Replies to several of the below remarks: There was quite a stack of behavioral evidence presented at the SPI case. No, there is not a "smoking gun" a single piece of evidence that trumps any argument to the contrary, but I firmly believe the various pieces of evidence taken as a whole add up to another CoM sock. I don't appreciate the accusations of vindictiveness or doing something just because I don't like somebody, and I'll thank you to either quantify such statements with evidence of your own or stop making them. In actuality I kind of liked CoM and I thought it was a shame he ended up banned, but he brought it upon himself because he didn't know when to quit. And since he apparently still hasn't figured out when to quit I don't see any logic in assuming resetting the ban timer yet again will suffice to get the message across. Sometimes even a user with as many great content contributions as CoM simply can't function within the minimum standards of civility required by this project and we have no choice but show them the door. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Carcharoth: He was in fact given a chance to comment at the SPI, he was unblocked for part of the period that it was opened and made numerous edits to articles but ignored the SPI until after I blocked him as a sock. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"accusations of vindictiveness" In my case, I'd see the actions here as far less suspicious if it hadn't been for the CU. Why call for a CU if you're going to block anyway, no matter what the CU reports? If the DUCK evidence was overwhelming, there's no need for a CU (AIUI (admittedly poorly), CU is discouraged in such cases on privacy grounds). If the CU will have no influence on the outcome, then again, why have a CU? This looks too much like a CU that wasn't for investigative purposes, but for extra justification to a pre-judged decision. That's not a behaviour that I believe to be how we're supposed to work. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I'd clarified this sufficiently, but I guess not. I requested the CU (not Beeblebrox) on the basis of enough evidence to persuade a respected checkuser to do it. For various reasons the checkuser took fully five days to conclude, in which time I collated rather more evidence - ultimately enough that I wouldn't have asked for CU in the first place if I'd had it all originally. Rd232 ^talk 09:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I opened this request today because the situation came to a head today, but this will likely be my last opportunity to comment on the matter until at least next Tuesday. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK everyone, I am literally on my way out the door for the next four days, but if you would all have a look at my last posting to FSN talk page [6] you will find he has accidently given us the smoking gun we were looking for. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, looks like there has been an awful lot of discussion while I was gone, and CoM's "ban timer" has been reset once again, but no decision on my proposal. I'd like to clarify that I am seeking a modification because the one-year ban is not being respected and is therefore an ineffective remedy. An indefinite ban does not really solve that problem, but it would streamline things when these socks are detected in that they are generally disruptive users anyway so we wouldn't need to worry so much about whether they really are CoM or not as there would not be a clock to reset every time. In short, it would enable us to take a WP:RBI approach, reducing the drama level. Of course if the arbs are unconvinced despite the cumulative merit of all the various pieces of evidence then we are back to square one. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NuclearWarfare

Could this not be accomplished just as easily with an indef block? NW (Talk) 19:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by Andy Dingley

This appears to have arisen in response to sock allegations for Freakshownerd (talk · contribs), as described at SPI/ChildofMidnight

Behavioural similarities were sufficient to justify use of CU, which didn't report any visible connection between the two accounts. Despite this, the instigating admin Beeblebrox has proceeded to indef block the alleged sock and is now seeking an indef ban extension for CoM. At least two editors have expressed concern over this action, in the absence of strong evidence to support the sock allegation. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[The following was intended for the SPI page, but I note an extremely rapid close and archiving of that page]

By "FSN has given up challenging", don't you mean "FSN has now been silenced by an indef block"?

It's all too easy to use phrases like "kangaroo court", but how about some evidence to back up these actions? As pointed out just above, WP:AGF still applies, particularly if contrary evidence isn't forthcoming. This is how we're supposed to work. Neither of these accounts are even vandals - "blocks are protective, not punitive", etc., etc. If either of these editors is secretly conspiring to undermine the foundations of the wikistate, then I'm sure their future actions will make that evident and we can get round to tarring and feathering them tomorrow, when it's obvious. In the meantime, a coincidental interest in obscure chocolate is no evidence for an indef ban! Andy Dingley (talk) 23:27, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Heimstern"FSN most likely is a sock of CoM" I agree. But "most likely is" just isn't good enough when we're throwing around indef bans - particularly an indef ban of someone who, if we're wrong, wasn't even involved! Letting FSN run for longer isn't harmful - they're not one of our real annoyances of vandals and trolls. If they really are block-worthy / ban-worthy / CoM socking, then this will surely become very clear with time and we can act on them then, when it's unambiguous. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rd232

The behavioural evidence at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/ChildofMidnight/Archive#Evidence_submitted_by_Rd232 proves beyond reasonable doubt that user:Freakshownerd is (a) a sock and (b) specifically, another sock of User:ChildofMidnight. Beyond that, a number of users commented on how familiar FSN's responses to a recent block were (reminiscent of CoM). FSN barely denied the socking allegation and made no serious attempt to critique the evidence, and appears to have given up. It appears likely that having had two socks discovered, CoM saw little mileage in challenging this instance, and is instead heading for further socking. Rd232 ^talk 23:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Andy Dingley: FSN has user talk access as well as email possibilities to challenge the evidence. So there is no question of him being "silenced". In addition, if you're going to pursue the same "ignore and downplay the evidence" tactic as FSN, you're just going to make me wonder who the hell you are (I don't know you from Adam, or why you'd defend FSN when he won't do so himself). Rd232 ^talk 23:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you're accusing me of being a sock, please come out and say so. You might note that I've also been critical of how RAN has been treated lately, so I'm clearly a sock! I very much do not appreciate your insinuation that anyone who does not support your actions is a useful idiot and dupe of Eastasia. 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 00:16, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On the subject of RAN, it appears clear that FSN shares CoM's interest in drama. As the most exciting show on channel-wiki this season, RAN is a magnet to anyone so inclined. In other news, WMC sometimes talks about the weather. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I was accusing somebody of something, they would know it. "wonder" was a precisely chosen word not implying any knowledge; and it would cover friendship or shared views as easily as socking, if I was inclined to pursue the thought, which I'm decidedly not. Rd232 ^talk 00:49, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Iridescent: well I'm disappointed you would say that. Would you address point 5 of my evidence, which I think is the single most damning point? (And incidentally, it is silly to say the negative CU was grounds for the block; it was held to be overridden by the strength of the behavioural evidence.) Rd232 ^talk 23:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You don't find an 8-day old account jumping to RAN's defence on his user talk page and at ANI, with no apparent reason [not having previously visited either], at all strange - especially given the type of CoM-reminiscent remarks? You don't find it too coincidental that after CoM's sock creates a Pasco County nature reserve, FSN does so some time later? There are 3000+ counties in the US - what are the odds not only on creating a nature reserve article (let's say that's high, for a prolific user, though I dare say many prolific users haven't) but on the exact same county? At 3000:1 I find it highly unlikely that this is co-incidence. Rd232 ^talk 00:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find it hugely suspicious, but suspicion alone doesn't justify an indef ban. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Any one of the points listed in my SPI evidence looks suspicious. Added up, they are conclusive. You cannot treat each one in isolation as "not conclusive"; the evidence is additive and taken as a whole, conclusive. Rd232 ^talk 01:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And we've barely even mentioned the "voice" evidence (cf CoM RFCU). Tarc indicated he might be willing to do a sort of linguistic comparison if necessary; I guess it's necessary. (Though for those most familiar with CoM, it doesn't seem to be.) Rd232 ^talk 01:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Iridescent: I find it odd that you mention the number of wikistalk overlapping pages when the SPI evidence does not. The SPI evidence is qualitative, not quantitative. Rd232 ^talk 09:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Iridescent:

fine, then forget the wikistalk part of point 5; it was a lazy way of showing that CoM was aware of RAN's existence, and had some interest overlaps. I should have just relied on CoM's well-known tendency to stick his nose in absolutely everywhere at ANI without obvious need to do so, with the same chorus of "abusive admins". FSN did just that within a few days of account creation, jumping in unprompted to support RAN [7] and Giacomo [8] 2 days later, neither of whom the account had any prior connection with I can see. And the similarity of tone and content (check the diffs) speaks for itself, for those familiar with CoM.
on the milagros thing - "pretty clearly just ran a search and created links" - hardly, not least since he added a link to just one article. Looking at the contribs, FSN had no obvious reason to be searching "milagros" at the time, and it's hardly a typical topic for him. I find it far more likely that he went to Todos (which is a typical topic, just a very obscure page), saw something that needed wikilinking, [9] searched for the appropriate wikilink, and found the need for a hatnote. What particularly clinches this sequence over yours (I hadn't wanted to point out this detail, it's more help for future socking!) is that Todos Santos had its first edit since January (when it was last edited by CoM) on 13 June (3 days before the FSN edit), when an anon removed the wikilink to milagros [10]. In consequence, the page would have appeared on CoM's watchlist as a recently edited page, which I have no doubt CoM was continuing to log in to check. Rd232 ^talk 15:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
any particular reason you ignored the Pasco County evidence? Rd232 ^talk 15:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Iridescent: I'm increasingly astounded at this attitude coming from a fellow admin. Not only have you ignored my expansion on the Todos Santos Chocolates point, but you misread the Pasco County evidence completely. I made no claim that the users were in Pasco County (I said "connection to / interest in", which I guess was a clumsy way of putting it) rather I pointed out that the previous sock (Electroshoxcure) create a Pasco County nature reserve as one of his 7 article creations, and the very first nature reserve article FSN creates is in Pasco County. This is roughly a 3000:1 coincidence even if you assume that all users create nature reserve articles! (Which is clearly untrue, but the probability attached to that is much harder to say anything about.) Basically, Electroshoxcure started the job of expanding coverage of Pasco County nature reserve articles and some weeks later FSN continued it. The likelihood of the Pasco connection being mere coincidence ("I'm gonna create a nature reserve article, don't care where, how about ... there") is further decreased by the creation of several local school article redirects and a geo stub. (Also probability of coincidence can be contextualised by noting that no Pasco nature reserve articles were created between 2006 and 2010, when Electroshoxcure and FSN, plus what is now declared to be a friend of FSN's, contribute.) Rd232 ^talk 16:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

re CoM socking: unless I'm way off base, CoM has given up on the idea of rescuing the FSN account, and is enjoying some disruptive socking. [ Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of ChildofMidnight. I find this particularly nice (though downplaying contributions here from Bigtimepeace seems a mite unfair). Rd232 ^talk 01:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Heimstern: It seems likely to me that FSN has already socked disruptively. User:Overturn_and_censure_Tarc (29 July) and User:Overturn_deletion_to_censure_Tarc! (29 Aug) are both SPAs for challenging an FSN DRV and attacking Tarc using (in the first instance) language directed by Tarc at FSN at that DRV. [11] FSN listed the same page at DRV twice - with the SPA appearing soon after in each case. Rd232 ^talk 12:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iridescent

This absolutely reeks of an "I don't like you" block, and this request to extend CoM's ban on this weak foundation just looks like petty vindictiveness. I have looked over all the evidence here, and I see no smoking gun at all. Yes, they edited in similar areas, but "food" and "US politics" are hardly obscure fields, and the Wikistalk tool is generally virtually meaningless when one of the editors has a high edit count, as CoM did (I believe I have 20,000 pages in common with J.delanoy). I see no pattern of problematic edits from the Freakshownerd account—those blocks were all dubious and quickly overturned. While it may be CoM sneaking under the wire, he's not causing any problems if it is, and there's at least a reasonable chance that this is a legitimate new user being hounded off on "edits in a similar way" grounds. Filing a request for checkuser and using the fact that it came back negative as grounds for a block, which certainly appears to be what's happened here, is ABF in the extreme. – iridescent 23:38, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Rd232: I really don't see anything there to link CoM and FSN. I've had numerous issues with User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) myself in the past (albeit none recently) and am certainly not going to jump to his defense; however, from my previous interactions with him, I know that he does have something of a "fan club" of talkpage watchers (126 of them), and don't find it at all unusual that two different users will jump in to argue his case. I think there's good evidence that FSN isn't a new user, but very little to suggest either that he's COM or that he's anything other than a former user making a clean start or an IP creating an account for the first time. Yes, he may be COM, but it's equally possible that he's not. As I've previously stated, MZMcBride's tool is not a useful tool for sockpuppet investigations (8 pages in common between Freakshownerd and ChildofMidnight; 31 pages in common between Freakshownerd and myself; 647 pages in common between you and me). If he is COM, then leave him until he's either actually caused a problem, or has done something to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they're the same person. If he isn't, then you've just hounded off a legitimate user, and are now lobbying to extend COM's block for something he didn't do.

@Rd232: re "I find it odd that you mention the number of wikistalk overlapping pages when the SPI evidence does not"—the first sentence of point 5 in your evidence—which is supposed to be the clincher, according to your statement above—is "CoM has a high wikistalk overlap (showing strong onwiki relationship) with User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )". The overlap between them is 102 articles, which for two users with high edit counts is utterly unconvincing. Comparing CoM with two random users having a similar number of total edits to Richard's (according to WP:WBE), shows CoM as having about the same overlap with Magioladitis and three times as much overlap with Can't sleep, clown will eat me. To put that in perspective, my overlap with CoM is 359 pages.

Regarding "There is a very notable wikistalk overlap between Freakshownerd and CoM at a very hard to reach page, outside the main political-interest arena they share: Todos Santos Chocolates was created by CoM", if you look at FSN's editing history for that day, shortly before his sole edit to that page, adding a link to Milagro (votive), he'd made this edit, so had pretty clearly just ran a search and created links. Honestly, this is all utterly unconvincing; you've decided that the accounts are linked, and are grabbing at any piece of 'evidence', however tenuous, to back it up. It's certainly possible that these accounts are socks, but if this is all you have, there's not even a balance of probabilities, let alone beyond reasonable doubt. – iridescent 12:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Rd232: Re "any particular reason you ignored the Pasco County evidence?"—yes, because it's ridiculous. Not only is St Petersburg a major metropolitan area (and home, incidentally, to two of our most prolific long-term sockmasters, neither of which is CoM), the idea that "created articles on a place" indicates a connection with the place is ludicrous. In the last couple of months, I've created eight articles on rural Buckinghamshire, but I don't live anywhere near the place, while I've a grand total of zero articles about either the place I do live or the place I'm originally from. "Both accounts worked on Florida-related articles" is right up there with "speaks German in a similar way". – iridescent 15:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tarc

Well, coming back from a weekend bender, I find it a bit bewildering to see this degree of skepticism over the FSN-CoM connections. Read the comment left at User talk:ChildofMidnight#Sockpuppetry case by him; one giant thumbing of the nose at all of us, masquerading as golly-gee-whiz "It's not really me!" innocence. Seriously.

Don't know if I have the time to tonight, but many, many diffs can easily be dug the archives for this page, Arb enforcement, and AN/I of CoM savaging every admin who dares to lift a finger to sanction or block him, or voice support of other admins doing same. Many bad editors do this of course, but there are peculiarities in the tone and the delivery of these tirades, how the circle ever-widens to include more and more people that are "against him". Anyone with a even a passing familiarity with CoM's brand of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT-flavored aggression, especially when dealing with unblock requests, should be painfully obvious in FSN's talk page when he's dealing with same. Tarc (talk) 21:58, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Heimstern

I'm afraid I must agree with Tarc. It's not really the common editing areas that constitute a smoking gun here, though they are useful as circumstantial evidence to abet the case. It's the discussion comments taking admins to task that really suggest that this is none other than ChildofMidnight. These diffs fit his style like hand in glove. His response on CoM's talk after the accusation was made, in which he addresses (and congratulates!) ChildofMidnight, an editor who was banned before the FSN account was created, rather than addressing the evidence or his accusers, isn't really the sort of behaviour I'd expect from an innocent party, either. Thus, contra Risker and Shell, I must conclude that FSN most likely is a sock of CoM. And do note that I'm not the type to go out trying to get CoM elimated: after his confirmed socking incident in May, I chose not to reset his block (someone else did) and tried to convince him not to sock again. I'm afraid my attempt failed. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I must echo Bigtimepeace here and ask why the general lack of useful responses on the part of the arbs. The evidence he has presented is compelling, and yet we still have a rather incomprehensible skepticism on the part of some arbs and even less comprehensible apathy from others. The implication seems to be "so it looks like probably he socked. Meh. Let's not worry about it." Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:56, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vaguely Involved, but Mostly Just Entertained, PhGustaf

We're not talking about capital punishment here; the criterion is not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but "by a preponderance of the evidence", and I think Judge Wapner would find against CoM, in whatever guise, in a New York minute. All the same, I see no difference in utility between an updated 1-year block and an indef. PhGustaf (talk) 00:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement from Bigtimepeace

I'm not very active right now but Tarc directed me to this situation, I guess because I know as much as anyone about ChildofMidnight's "style" through frequent interaction and even more so through looking at many, many diffs when preparing his user conduct RfC. Given some of the evidence already presented and looking at a few things myself, I would bet a significant amount of money that Freakshownerd is ChildofMidnight. Of course I could be wrong, but I would be pretty astonished if these were different people. The IP information is different--which could have multiple explanations--but all of the "duck" type evidence looks and sounds like C of M. Let me just mention two specific things in some detail.

One example of language similarity, already mentioned above. This is really a textbook ChildofMidnight type statement, and no other editor comes to mind who writes quite like this. First, it uses the "shame on so and so" phrasing (as in [12] and [13]) which was a common tactic of C of M. Also the reference to "abuse" was incredibly common for C of M and not, I think, so much for the rest of us (e.g. [14] and [15], but there are dozens of similar examples). The comment demonstrates an affinity for the uncommon term "grotesque," which seems to be seldom used the way C of M uses it, i.e describing the behavior of other editors as "grotesque" (see here--two instances, and it also includes the regularly used C of M term "outrageous"--plus [16] [17] [18]). C of M had a very unique "voice" when he was angry and the traits included listing out names of "offenders" and using a canned set of terms to indicate outrage and injustice (abuse, vile, outrageous, grotesque, harassment, sick, bullying, etc.). I'm quite certain that if I had read the linked comment from Freakshownerd cold without having any idea who wrote it and with the user info removed, I would have quickly said, "that's ChildofMidnight." I know this is impressionistic "evidence," but I am pretty familiar with how this editor writes, and I just don't have the time or inclination to do a full blown linguistic analysis.

One other point I stumbled across because I remembered an earlier reference to it. Freakshownerd made a small edit to Jonnycake, an article which is neither particularly heavily edited nor viewed. A lot of work was done on this article by User:Drmies, a Wiki friend of C of M's (I should point out that I've never seen anything problematic from Drmies, seems to be an excellent editor). Drmies actually told C of M about this work, saying "Come on over for some Jonnycakes tomorrow. With Tedder's help I'm trying to turn it into a GA." This was one of the few messages posted on C of M's talk page after the ArbCom case concluded to which he responded, so he was one of the few Wikipedians (and possibly one of the few humans) who had Johnnycakes on the mind at some point in the last few months. It's telling, to me at least, that one of C of M's closest Wiki friends would improve an obscure food article, tell C of M about it while the latter was banned, and that a few months later a fairly new account who sounds and edits like C of M would show up to edit there.

Along with the other common interests between the two accounts (and, yes, a strong interest in quirky food topics and hot button American political issues, from the perspective of a conservative, is not a common profile among prolific content contributors), the overall stylistic similarity points strongly to ChildofMidnight and no one else I can think of (this is clearly a returning editor, I assume we can all agree on that). It's surprising to me that Shell could suggest that it's "rather unlikely that this user is CoM." At the very least, it's pretty likely—there are just too many similarities here.

That said I have no brilliant suggestions about what to do, assuming I'm correct. While I found C of M's editing pattern atrocious, I argued pretty strongly against blocking him for a year, preferring a lesser remedy. In part this was because I thought it was worth trying but also because I thought there was a good chance C of M would sock and would be harder to keep track of once he did. That's happened at least once and quite likely twice now. Banning indefinitely and/or resetting the block again won't do much to change that. Assuming Freakshownerd is C of M, he's willing to have a lot of us waste time by failing to 'fess up, so I don't think the future looks very encouraging. Maybe we should just leave things as they are unless the committee or a discussion on a noticeboard determines that Freakshownerd should not have been blocked as a sock. I think the block was warranted, though probably the SPI case should have stayed open longer. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of other things which to me almost add up to "case closed." First, Freakshownerd shows the same tendency to run over to Jimbo that ChildofMidnight did (I could find evidence of this tendency by C of M, but he did it over and over again which is I think is well known). Freakshownerd also recently engaged in heated argument on Jimbo's page (also like C of M). As you can see from FSN's 18:55 August 9th comment there the issue that was brought up was climate change, not really related to the topic, when FSN says "Has Arbcom acted yet to rein in the POV pushing fanatics of the Climate Cabal, who have clear COIs and hold Wikipedia's NPOV policy in disdain and want only their personal views represented?" That is again textbook C of M speak for his problems with the climate articles and with certain editors there (some context for that is here from the Arb case, but I'm sure that phrasing sounds familiar to everyone on the committee).

And one other specific point I noticed, again after a very cursory inspection of some edits. ChildofMidnight would sometimes create what I could only describe as "oddly general" or maybe "vaguely unencyclopedic" articles—the kind of thing that both seemed like a topic but not exactly, and which could not be expanded much. Examples would include Immediacy (philosophy), Religious values, and User:ChildofMidnight/vegetarian diet (the last was redirected to vegetarianism apparently). Upon registering FSN promptly created similar articles (now redirects) with Common language and Right (ethics). They also edited the articles Conscience, Moral compass, and Ethics. If you look at C of M's last 50 edits you'll notice a string of edits (actually the last article edits excepting one to Häagen-Dazs) to the Morality article. So C of M finished with some edits about morality, and within a day or two of creating an account FSN is editing the article on conscience and creating one on "right" in the ethical sense. To say that this is mere coincidence beggars belief.

Overall this passes the duck test, if we still use the duck test. C of M and Freakshownerd share all of the following attributes: pretty heavy editing; interest in contemporary political controversies in the U.S. from a conservative perspective (this Barack Obama talk page diff is also highly reminiscent of C of M); interest in more obscure food-related topics; a tendency to make general edits related to morality or ethics; a tendency to create what could be described as "very general" articles; a tendency to create a lot of articles period; an interest in nature preserves in one particular part of Florida (iridescent is completely wrong about this point in my view—it's a significant piece of data taken along with everything else); edit made on Todos Santos Chocolates; intense anger over the global warming articles; a tendency to "appeal to Jimbo" and to argue at length with others on Jimbo's talk page (really, most people don't do that); a tendency to get angry with people who disagree with them and not listen to what they have to say very well (see User_talk:Freakshownerd#Civility_reminder for an FSN example); a tendency to lash out in a personal fashion when they do get angry and, more importantly, a tendency to use certain words and phrasings that are quite unique when they do so. Add to that that "Jonnycakes" bit mentioned above, and the simple fact that the FSN account was created two weeks after C of M's previous sock was blocked and I think we can be about 98% sure what is going on here.

And it does matter whether this is a C of M sock or not, because given the Checkuser data he's either moved or is spoofing an IP or something (or whatever the hell it's called). I'm open to contrary evidence to that which has already been provided, but I think further digging would only strengthen the case, because I've seen nothing to suggest that these are not the same two editors, and numerous items which indicate they are. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to Carcharoth: sorry for crossing WP:BEANS, which I certainly thought about, but I'm not sure what else you would have had me to do (and bringing up WP:BEANS in the specific way you do is actually a good example of WP:BEANS on two fronts, ironically, as you actually made direct allusions to possible behavior). The socking was pretty obvious, I think, and a good amount of evidence had already been provided, but you and several other Arbs were not really buying it, frankly because I don't think you are as familiar with C of M as the people who worked on the SPI case. I considered e-mailing some of what I found to the committee, but I don't think that's fair because folks should not be "convicted" behind closed doors without understanding the evidence against them, even if that does reveal "investigative methods" and the like. You said you agreed with Risker when she found "the circumstantial evidence borderline at best," but when more was provided it was suddenly too much. Hard to know what you were looking for, and since the committee seemed on the verge of calling to undo the block of what seemed to me to be an obviously abusive sockpuppet I laid out a more detailed case. Had the Arb comments roughly followed Rlevse's initial response I would not mentioned any specific details.

As to your suggestions for how to proceed, they don't really make sense to me, though it may just be the wording. You say it's better "to wait for more evidence and to act on sanctionable conduct by the account independent of socking accusations." Well, Freakshownerd is blocked indefinitely, are you saying they should be unblocked, and then wait and see what happens, or just that that is what should have happened? Surely you noticed that the FSN account already was behaving in a not-so-great, sanctionable manner (e.g. this blog log, not to mention a slew of personal attacks). Also you make reference to ChildofMidnight appealing an indefinite block, but that editor is not blocked indefinitely, the block was merely reset. I think we should just leave things as they are now, but maybe you don't disagree.

It seems to me it was a mistake to bring this to the committee to consider an indefinite block/ban, because what was basically dealt with suddenly became un-dealt with. Color me confused by the reluctance to say, "this is clearly a sock of C of M" and by the suggestion that we shouldn't even worry about the socking per say but just the behavior of the new account. ChildofMidnight was enormously disruptive and has already socked before. We have a pretty strong interest in sussing out any C of M socks before they spend weeks disrupting multiple parts of the project the way C of M did. To respond, "well, I don't know if it's a sock or not, but let's just wait and see if something bad happens" seems foolish to me—the disruption already occurred, the socking evidence is quite strong, and here we are wasting time talking about it. Part of why I didn't care for the ban remedy for ChildofMidnight is that I felt it would likely encourage sockpuppetry, which it indeed has, as opposed to a restriction that would make it easier to see what C of M was doing on the account we knew while severely constraining his ability to edit. We ended up with problematic socking (which no doubt will continue—ChildofMidnight cannot quit editing apparently), and now the committee seems almost blase about it. In a way I'm sorry I even bothered to weigh in here, but y'all can deal with this going forward. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:18, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by / question from Bongomatic

The arbitrators who have opined so far certainly do not indicate that there is a consensus to indef or reset the clock. However, SchuminWeb ~~did just that~~unilaterally (as far as I know) reset the clock. On what authority does an individual admin have to—contrary to CU results and consensus, and in the absence of AC conclusions—undertake such an action? ^Bongo_matic 04:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth—thanks for pointing out the ambiguity. Hope the above will assure others don't get the wrong impression. ^Bongo_matic 02:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fences and windows

The connection between CoM and Freakshownerd is blindingly obvious, especially after all the behavioural evidence has been laid out on a plate. I wonder at the analytical abilities of the arbitrators who aren't seeing it. Fences&Windows 00:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, please give the arbitrators who commented earlier on time to review the evidence added after they made their comments. I was convinced by the later evidence, perhaps they will be too. Carcharoth (talk) 00:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by FanOfBackyard

What if...FSO is an impostor? Someone who is playing games with the Amateur Detective Squad. It is not very difficult to mimic COM's behavior. As I see it, the more eccentric the editor, the easier it is to impersonate. Guaranteed: FSO is A) a sock or B) an impostor trolling COM's foes. Leave the FSO account blocked and end it. Worst that can happen is that COM was socking and got away with a some edits, no harm done. On the other hand, punish COM for something he might not have done...and you have a serious injustice. An expert on the whole affair is Baseball Bugs, unfortunately his knowledge of COM and impostors is sidelined by a topic ban. Oh, and the "Beans" thing, bad move. If COM was socking, he is now taking notes. Think about it, I have to go now. FanOfBackyard (talk) 02:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LadyofShalott

I'm not sure if this is the best way to raise this, but... FSN has a question regarding these proceedings and his/her block. As I think it is probably best addressed by the Arbitrators, I said I would point people to the question: User talk:Freakshownerd#Question regarding Arbcom and block. LadyofShalott 22:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Note that the ban was reset in May, when the last sock was identified. NW (Talk) 00:49, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

Support indef. Feel free to indef COM as far as I'm concerned. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:04, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am quite unimpressed that Freakshownerd (talk · contribs) has been blocked as a sock of ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs). The checkuser evidence contradicts such a finding, and I find the circumstantial evidence borderline at best, to the point that I would say if you don't have grounds to block Freakshownerd independent of the alleged sockpuppetry, then you don't have grounds to block him. I don't mind the idea of resetting CoM's block to a year from the last confirmed sock, which I believe is Electroshoxcure, but I'm not convinced Freakshownerd is a CoM sock so I cannot support a change to indefinite ban based on what is presented here. Risker (talk) 00:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Risker, though I would actually like to hear from Freakshownerd (who should have been given a chance to comment at the SPI page as well). But that is not really a matter for this page. I suggest resetting the ban for CoM from the last confirmed sock, and continuing discussion elsewhere as to whether Freakshownerd is actually a sock of CoM. Carcharoth (talk) 00:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Updating here to say that Bigtimepeace's evidence is more convincing, but it should be pointed out that going into such detail allows: (a) others to imitate CoM if they wanted to do so; (b) allows CoM to avoid such behaviourisms in future. This is why going into such detail is not best practice (per WP:BEANS), but too late for that now. It is better, if there is no abuse from the suspected socking account, to wait for more evidence and to act on sanctionable conduct by the account independent of socking accusations (as Coren has also said below). ~~Regarding the indefinite block placed, CoM may appeal that to the arbitration committee.~~ Indeed, Freakshownerd is also welcome to appeal any block to the arbitration committee. In such cases, being honest about what has happened will help. Carcharoth (talk) 19:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Further update, in response to Bigtimepeace: I was indeed talking about what should (maybe) have happened (i.e. block for the poor behaviour without even needing to bring up a sock case - sometimes people focus too much on difficult-to-prove socking and not on pulling up accounts on other conduct issues), but what is done is done. The danger of convicting on too-thin behavioural evidence is very real. In general, people do hold different standards for what passes a behavioural (or "duck") test, and it would be better if the generalities of such criteria were standardised. It does no good for such matters to become arcane arts with only a few experienced people willing to dig deep in difficult cases, and neither does it do any good if standards drop and anyone can be accused (and convicted) of WP:DUCK-like behaviour on a whim (none of this is directed at you, Bigtimepeace, but is a more general comment). How to balance proper discussion of WP:DUCK cases with WP:BEANS, I'm not sure. It is normally done off-wiki in complex cases, but, as Bigtimepeace says, there are good reasons for transparency as well. About the CoM block, I assumed from what Bongomatic said ("SchuminWeb did just that") that it had been set to indefinite. But I should have checked, and I see I was wrong and Bongomatic's statement could be interpreted in either of two ways and I interpreted it the wrong way. I've struck what I said, but as I said, any blocked accounts are always free to appeal to ArbCom. Carcharoth (talk) 23:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reviewing evidence; awaiting any potential response to the request I just made on Freakshownerd's talkpage. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know that I need to return to this and review the new evidence; I've been focusing on the Climate change case with my arb time this week, but will carve out time to look at this shortly. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As a procedural matter, the Committee does not normally issue indefinite bans under such circumstances. If a banned user violates their ban, the normal course of action is simply to reset their ban; there is no need to have us modify the original remedy. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 19:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From my review, it appears rather unlikely that this user is CoM. Waiting to see if there's a response to Brad's comments though. Shell ^babelfish 20:10, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I admit I'm not convinced either way. Some of the behavioral evidence is convincing (Bigtimepeace's in particular makes me pause), but some of it is a little off and not that convincing. Given that the technical side of things gives us no help, would it not be simpler to handle the Freakshownerd account on its own merit and simply not bother trying to link it to CoM? If he's socking, it will become obvious in time; either way there is no need for a specific account to be tied to him now. — Coren ^(talk) 02:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Tothwolf

Initiated by Miami33139 (talk) at 06:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Tothwolf arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 1

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Miami33139 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Tothwolf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Tothwolf

Amendment 1

Tothwolf restricted
This recently expired. It should be extended for one year without opening a new case. It should be amended to include making accusations.

Statement by Miami

[19] On the xpiration of his Arbcom sanctions, Tothwolf recently started an ANI discussion accusing me of hounding and harassing him again in the same manner that brought this issue to Arbcom the first time. He singled out the handful of deletions that involve him and his preferred editing area (IRC clients) from the dozens of deletion areas I have been working in (Table-top role-playing games, Web browsers, media players, firewall software, and other miscellaneous software).

In finding 3 of the Arbcom case it was found not credible that I was singling him out.

In finding 6 & 7, it was found that Tothwolf's repeated accusations (against many editors, including myself) were often in bad faith, against evidence to the contrary, and poor decorum.

Evidence in the Arbcom case showed Tothwolf has a history of "crying wolf" (making accusations) when people edit in his area.

In this ANI post, he is essentially repeating the accusations of persecution that he made about myself and others in the Arbcom case. He blames Arbcom for his troubles. I do not feel I should have to defend myself all over again when he has sympathetic administrators (his claim) on ANI ready to pounce on his accusations.

I understand that deletion of material often upsets people and I have acted at Arbcoms suggestion on my deletion activities. I have slowed down the rate of proposing deletion and deletion requests to be more managable. The overlap with Tothwolf is minor and not any sort of personal vendetta against him. Requesting MfD requests of deleted articles kept in userspace is simple followup of deletions made six months or a year ago.

Response to Seth Kellerman

2% of my editing in the last two month has any overlap with Tothwolf. None of these overlapping edits are about him. Even while nominating his two userspace articles at MfD I did not direct any commentary to or about him. His accusation that a small handful of edits are persecuting him are non-credible.

Response to Carcharoth

Do you actually think since after the close of the Arbcom case and prior to the ANI that my editing had any interaction with Tothwolf? My nominations of two of his userpages for MfD particularly avoided discussing him and only focused on the fact that the content was previously deleted and stale. How could I be harassing Tothwolf without interacting with him? Tothwolf needs to produce evidence, please, that predates the ANI discussion.

Response after Uncle G

I see based on Uncle G description, how the timing of the MfD of Tothwolf userpages could appear baiting. It was not. I did know which article Tothwolf kept in userspace and did mean to ask to be deleted. It was not timed for baiting purpose. I knew it was many months since they were deleted at AfD. I verified they had not been worked on since deletion. I nominated. All I ask is AGF. Uncle G was actually inflammatory role here. Uncle G advertising MfD in various places, using phrases like "flaring up" "not wise" and "being gamed" and highly suggestive of his opinion. This drew !voters questioning motives rather than the straight content issues raised about WP:FAKEARTICLE. WP:FAKEARTICLE is a standard rationale at MfD. These MfD would have concluded without drama had Uncle G not advertised them.

Uncle G show no other evidence, except bad faith on my motive, that I harass Tothwolf or that my editing shows substantial interest in Tothwolf. I have no interest in Tothwolf other than followup to delete articles in userspace that were previously deleted. I have been engage at userspace issues two years before any intersection with Tothwolf [20].

Uncle G raise deletion activity which is not at all related to Tothwolf and Uncle G show no connection to Tothwolf in my activity. Uncle G claim I have not adjusted my actions towards deletion. Prior to Arbcom I would propose or nominate many pages each day for deletion. After Arbcom I do maybe one per day. I have nominate for deletion less than 20 Wikipedia articles in more than two months, which is a drastic change. Uncle G claim I am careless about deletion. In fact, of last nine closed AfD where I nominate, 5 were deleted with consensus of community. 2 were close as no consensus. 2 were keep. I do not think this is a record showing carelessness.

My deletions have nothing to do with Tothwolf or any other volunteer. I follow a template like Template:Web browser or Category:Open source games and open each article. The ones which look bad, I nominate. Another volunteer is heavily interested in web browser or open source games so Tothwolf "stalking tool" will show overlap between our edits and he claim I stalk other volunteer. This type of accusation is most frustrating to me!

Uncle G also has a different Wikipedia philosophy than me, and is hardly neutral towards my deletion activity which is why he raised it. Uncle G take out of context my statement "I vote delete on everything" from a prior AfD. I made that comment because I rarely vote Keep. I do not vote Keep often because other editors have already said it and my opinion not necessary. I made that statement to give weight to fact that I voted Keep on that AfD. Uncle G also has philosophy about sourcing requirement of articles. Uncle G claim at AfD that people like me are required to put source in article. Untrue according to Wikipedia guideline, it is burden of person adding material to add source material. It is indeed, "Somebody Else's Problem" to source article. This is basic conflict of Wikipedia editing and deletion philosopy between Uncle G and myself but this is a schism between all volunteers on Wikipedia. My own opinion, that material should be cited before it goes into article, is not unique [21] and even agrees with Jimbo, that unreference material should be deleted [22]. I should not be punish for disagreeing with Uncle G on Wikipedia philosophy.

Uncle G raise significant issue with evidence on questionable deletion activity involve JBsupreme. He can defend himself. When reading Uncle G statement, be careful to differentiate JBsupreme edits from mine. I should not be punish for JBsupreme activity. JBsupreme obviously in contradictory philosophy to Uncle G too.

Uncle G make some claim about Theserialcomma. He can defend himself. Undoubtedly Theserialcomma have Tothwolf pages on his watchlist and follow to MfD. His involvement on WP sporadic for several months. Since at least April I see no other intersection between him and Tothwolf. I hardly think two delete !votes[23] constitute some major Wikipedia crime or evidence of baiting.

Statement by Seth Kellerman

This stems from an ANI initiated by Tothwolf at Wikipedia:ANI#Wikihounding_and_disruptive_editing.3F

As an outside observer it appears to me that Tothwolf has been failed by the wikipedia system repeatedly throughout this ordeal. Baiting is difficult to demonstrate, and more difficult to demonstrate without walls of text. Tothwolf tends to be verbose and disorganized with providing difs, and he (IMO) Plaxicoed himself during the case itself with his brazen taunting (i.e. repeatedly telling others to "kick rocks"). Tothwolf's actions during the case were not excusable, however, Principle 3 states Administrators should be sensitive in dealing with harassed editors who have themselves breached acceptable standards. It is disappointing that such little scrutiny was given to the behavior of Miami, JBSupreme and Theserialcomma, especially with such a parade of users who suffered bad experiences at their hands submitting evidence.

Furthermore, there appears to be much consensus among editors that Miami was attempting to deliberately provoke Tothwolf.

Miami nominated userfied articles within Tothwolf's userspace for deletion. I have no difs to provide as the articles have been moved several times and may be deleted, but Miami should not have done this.
In response to Tothwolf's post on ANI, Miami responds with "tl;dr" [24], he has yet to explain why he chose to do that.
- In that same dif, he said "Paranoid ramblings of Tothwolf", "Other than his walled garden, I ain't following his editing or hounding him", "enough paranoia", "paranoid ranting"
Miami subsequently posts on JBSupreme's talk page "Call the Waaaambulance that same old someone had a fit again."
Miami posts the same on Theserialcomma's talk page, with the addition of an edit summary "whine one one"
Despite requests from myself and Crossmr, Miami has declined to explain why he mocked Tothwolf with "tl;dr". He justified the taunting posts on the talk pages of JBSurpreme and Theserialcomma based on Tothwolf not having notified them of the ANI discussion.

In conclusion.

Miami33139 and JBSurpeme are in violation of policies WP:HARASS, WP:CIVIL, WP:BAIT and WP:HOUND.
The sanction against Tothwolf, that he shall not cast aspersions without evidence, is irrelevant as the general consensus on ANI is that he has evidence and that he has a good reason to feel he is being hounded.

Seth Kellerman (talk) 09:05, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments in regards to Miami33139 and JBSupreme's participation in deletion discussions. Finding 3 of the arbitration case states Miami33139 and JBsupreme are reminded to observe deletion best practices when nominating articles for deletion, including the consideration of alternatives to deletion such as merging articles or curing problems through editing. Although I am admittedly ignorant of all things IRC and not a good judge of reliability of sources and thus notability of software, I can see bad deletion discussions.

It does appear that Miami has improved his deletion practices somewhat. His AfD nominations have all been reasonable. I am still seeing the old "That source isn't notable enough" arguments in other discussions, though.

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Orion_Network_Licensing_Platform (Miami argues with Hobit over whether a mention in a reliable source is trivial)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Labyrinth_Lord ("The Ennie awards are a bunch of fandom nerds.")

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shuttle_Inc. Although Miami votes keep, he comments "I vote delete on everything".

It does not appear that JBSupreme has improved his deletion practices any more than he improved his civility. I am particularly concerned about Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Comparison_of_mobile_Internet_Relay_Chat_clients_(2nd_nomination). This discussion was initiated by JBSupreme, with Miami33139 showing up to support him. This article was kept nearly unanimously during its first AfD, with the only delete !votes being JBSupreme and Miami33139. As of this posting, during the second AfD, again the only delete !votes are from JB and Miami.

I also find Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Hm2k/MIRCStats symptomatic of WP:HOUND

Seth Kellerman (talk) 18:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Protonk

I am uninvolved w/ the case, but left some comment on the AN/I discussion. With regard to the furor over the use of tl;dr, perhaps he felt that totwolf's comments were too long, and didn't read them? I know it was probably meant to mock the editor, but how much blood can be squeezed from that turnip? The comments were retracted. Protonk (talk) 20:43, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tothwolf

I know I made some huge mistakes in allowing myself to be baited back in December while the original case was open. While not an excuse for my own behaviour in how I responded, at the time I was extremely frustrated with how long the case had been dragging out without any resolution to the wikihounding, baiting, taunting, etc which was still ongoing. I also know the evidence I presented during the case [25] may have actually been too detailed, potentially making it difficult to parse.

I believe I also made a mistake when I presented evidence during the case which focused mainly on my own interactions with Theserialcomma, Miami33139 and JBsupreme. It was later explained to me that it might have been better had I focused more on showing how they had been doing similar things to other editors. Towards that end, as I mentioned on AN/I, while I was blocked by Sandstein I spent a considerable amount of time reviewing and documenting both my and other editors' interactions with Theserialcomma, Miami33139, and JBsupreme. That documentation can be found here. While the sections which cover Miami33139 and JBsupreme's behaviour and interactions with other editors are far from complete, the section which covers Theserialcomma's behaviour [26] is fairly complete and gives a pretty good overview of their interactions with other editors. Note that while that page is currently protected from editing by the general public, it can be transwikied if needed.

The statement made by Uncle G to which Carcharoth referred to below was on WP:AC/N. [27] I had replied to Uncle G via email after he left a notification on my talk page [28] of the two MFDs which Miami33139 had initiated. [29] [30] When Miami33139 initiated those MFDs, I hadn't even edited since June, [31] which as I explained on AN/I was due to the combination of the continued wikihounding and my workload. As I also mentioned on AN/I, Theserialcomma and JBsupreme also became involved in these two MFDs. [32] [33] [34] [35] At the time Theserialcomma became involved, they were not even actively editing. [36]

I'd also really like to see JBsupreme provide an answer for the question DGG raised in one of the above MFDs [37] as the answer which JBsupreme gave previously [38] seems to be more of a dodge than an answer.

Another example of the continued disruptive behaviour can be seen at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ircle. I think this AfD is representative of the continued disruption and misuse of deletion processes by these individuals. This article was nominated for deletion by Miami33139 shortly after I contested the prod deletion with the admin who deleted it. There are other articles that were similarly prodded/deleted which should also be contested, but that is not something I have the time to work on right now. While not showing the larger pattern, the edit history for {{IRC footer}} [39] will begin to help show why Miami33139 has intentionally targeted articles like Ircle which are within the scope of WP:WPIRC.

Upon Miami33139's return, not only did he resume his wikihounding of myself, but also other editors. An extreme case can be seen in Miami33139's interactions with Beyond My Ken (and his former usernames). Beyond My Ken also made a statement regarding Miami33139's behaviour which should also be taken into account. The wikihounding of Beyond My Ken by Miami33139 can be easily seen in the edit histories of the articles from these links: [40] [41] [42] Note the massive numbers of automated or semi-automated edits by Miami33139 which remove Beyond My Ken's changes to the articles. I also noticed that the script Miami33139 uses for this task doesn't function properly in that it often improperly re-orders navigational and stub templates and removes intentional formatting changes which fix things like bunched-up edit links.

While this is an incomplete list, other editors which Miami33139 is known to have followed and wikihounded include: Mabdul, Neustradamus, EdoDodo, and Hm2k. I note that Mabdul in particular has been a target of particular interest to Miami33139. He has worked very hard on expanding articles about FTP clients, web browsers, email clients, etc which Miami33139 began to target after he noticed Mabdul was also a member of WP:WPIRC. [43] Oddly enough, today Mabdul removed himself from the WikiProject's participants list. [44]

I think these diffs should also be taken into consideration: [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] I previously presented these in the original evidence, [52] but as I mentioned above, because I gave so much detail, they would have been easily overlooked.

While I would very much like to return to actively editing Wikipedia, as it stands now I don't feel that I can unless the disruptive behaviours from Theserialcomma, Miami33139, and JBsupreme are fully addressed. When I'm not here editing, these individuals are not as readily able to tendentiously target articles/pages I would otherwise be editing, which ultimately results in less harm to the encyclopedia. That said, while I certainly felt less stress when I stopped editing, the behaviours clearly continued even in my absence, as even when I wasn't here they continued to target both my past contributions and other editors. --Tothwolf (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Carcharoth

I'm really not sure what else I can add here in addition to what I brought up on AN/I but I'll see what I can come up with in the next day or so.

I do wish these editors would stop with the personal attacks though. I don't really care to be called "paranoid", "delusional", etc and the semi-constant claims of WP:OWN and WP:COI are not in any way helpful.

I'm not really sure that a simple non-interaction restriction would help resolve things either. Jehochman and I discussed just such a potential solution before the original ArbCom case was filed. I have a strong feeling that if a simple interaction-type restriction were put in place, these editors would still follow my edits in order to remove content from or nominate articles and pages for deletion, or attempt to superficially involve themselves in related topic areas such as technology and computing where they did not edit previously (as they've already been doing) in order to block or restrict my edits while claiming they were already editing articles in those topic areas.

Sigh, I dunno... Seth Kellerman really is correct above where he mentions that I Plaxicoed myself when I fell into the baiting which was happening while the original case was open. I really want to be more careful with what I say here this time so as to not say the wrong thing and otherwise somehow make things worse. I think at this point I'd really like to see what the community decides in the AN/I discussion before we go too much further here. My own stress levels went down as far as the wikihounding goes when I simply stopped editing entirely, but it didn't fix the problem, it just meant I wasn't here to feel stressed out about it. If AN/I is ultimately unable to resolve things, I think I'd very much support reopening the original case. --Tothwolf (talk) 04:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Uncle G

I've found it largely counterproductive to argue with Theserialcomma, Miami33139, and JBsupreme, or attempt to edit an article they've nominated for deletion. They argue against reliable sources, revert/remove my edits, or otherwise attempt to discredit me in some manner, often claiming WP:OWN or WP:COI.

As for User:Tothwolf/List of Internet Relay Chat clients and User:Tothwolf/List of quote databases, I was advised not to participate in the MFDs that Miami33139 initiated, which seemed sensible to me given the past results of interacting with these three individuals. With Ircle specifically, I emailed an arbitrator to ask how I should handle this action by Miami33139 [53] but haven't yet received an answer. After the AfD was closed as keep, Miami33139 removed the bulk of the article stating "I have remove information that is uncited and is not found on product web page.". As far as I could see, every single fact there can be cited, with the reference that Miami33139 also removed easy to locate via archive.org [54] and also via a simple Google search. [55]

There are tons of things which I really should get back to editing. I still have a number of in-progress Template: namespace projects such as {{Cite IETF}}, {{External link}} (created for Category:External link templates standardisation work), and the reimplementation of {{LSR}}/{{LPR}} that I largely put on hold starting in November 2009 when the ArbCom case was initiated. As I've previously mentioned, I really do not feel that I can edit while the wikihounding and harassment is taking place and I found it much less stressful to instead focus on my work outside of Wikipedia.

Just as a general question to whomever wants to answer, wouldn't this [56], followed by [57] (history) be considered both disruptive and wikihounding? I created this LSR template on July 9, 2009 (using the same method we use in the majority of Category:Software comparisons) to make it easier for the anonymous editor to update the version information, which previously resulted in nearly daily edits to the large comparison tables. --Tothwolf (talk) 03:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DGG

When someone chooses to harass a person here, there are two things necessary in the target: some weakness that an be exploited as the basis for the harassment, and a tendency to sometimes reply inappropriately. In a sense, almost anyone meets these requirements to be a target: Any active editor has made mistakes, and very few people can be fully calm after sufficient insults--and, in particular, while being set upon by more than a single harasser. As applies here: some of the IRC articles were rather weak; the subject is not really among the best-controlled tenth of WPedians; the almost simultaneous actions from three people would be enough to infuriate almost anyone. As I see it, concerted harassment should be treated as a major aggravating factor or even as meatpuppettry, whether done by coordination or just from exploiting the opportunity. And one sure sign of harassment is when it takes more than one route, or when it continues after the success of the initial round; I see the MfDs in exactly these lights: carrying things to that extent is persecution. DGG ( talk ) 22:09, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uncle G, by request

I've been asked to comment here, by two people. I've hesitated because I really don't want to get entangled in this. There's not much that I can add, strictly speaking, that isn't already available for perusal. Apart from the electronic mail messages sent to me by Tothwolf and two administrators, it's all on-wiki, albeit that there's not a central collection of diffs and links.

As I suggested at the ACN talk page, it does look like things are being gamed here. This request to mute Tothwolf is more such. I'm not sure that we should be continuing to buy the self-descriptions that aren't borne out by actions over the months, or the It's-not-interaction-if-I-nominate-a-user's-draft-article-userpages-for-deletion-just-before-the-previous-restrictions-are-set-to-expire-as-long-as-I-don't-mention-the-user-by-name argument. I think that, as I questioned before, it was most unwise of JBsupreme and Theserialcomma to jump on Miami33139's bandwagon there. It was particularly unwise of Theserialcomma, who otherwise has mostly lifted xyrself out of this, it appears to me.

This leaves us with Miami33139, Tothwolf, JBsupreme, and all of the people who have, variously, interacted with them over the months.

Whilst Tothwolf has apparently resisted temptation to blow xyr top this time around, xe still hasn't done xyrself any favours. Actually rolling up xyr sleeves and editing User:Tothwolf/List of Internet Relay Chat clients (MfD discussion), User:Tothwolf/List of quote databases (MfD discussion), User:Tothwolf/MIRCStats, or even Ircle (AfD discussion) would have probably resulted in snowball closures of the discussions that Miami33139 initiated, with Miami33139, JBsupreme, and Theserialcomma more clearly standing out as the dissenting trio, instead of the more mixed reaction that occurred. So there is some fault for the continuance of this whole mess to be laid at Tothwolf's door. But extending restrictions doesn't address it in the slightest. All that the restrictions have done is supply parties to the case with something to game.

Which brings me to the best practice reminder in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tothwolf. It, too, doesn't appear to have worked. If anything, things are worse now than they were at the time. Neither Miami33139 nor JBsupreme are following best practices, or indeed deletion policy, despite the attempts of myself and others to persuade them to do so, time and again. I know that for at least one other editor the assumption of good faith has been negated by months of evidence, here; and as Seth Kellerman points out above, Miami33139's "I vote delete on everything." rings much truer than the statements to the contrary on xyr user page, given what can be found in Special:Contributions/Miami33139 in the project namespace over and over again. What we really have here are two accounts that have failed to follow good practice for a long time, and have reached what is probably an all-time low (more on which later) quite recently, primarily in conflict with an editor that in turn does xyrself no favours by not actually getting down to writing.

I can understand why the assumption of good faith has gone out of the window for that editor that I mentioned. It's fairly clear from the actions by JBsupreme at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tothwolf/List of Internet Relay Chat clientsuser that there's action in bad faith occurring. Here's the sequence:

JBsupreme says that the page is close to "an abuse of userspace".
After the MFD discussion has run for several days, Tothwolf requests speedy deletion, which xe notes on the Administrator's Noticeboard and Village Pump.
JBsupreme, some 45 minutes later, renames the page into xyr own user space and removes the speedy deletion request.
When asked about these actions by DGG, xyr response is "Do you really not know? I think you do."

Yes, I think that we really do know. We really do know that JBsupreme is acting to always oppose whatever Tothwolf happens to want here, rather than in pursuance of xyr stated position, and not acting in good faith. It flies in the face of reason to assume that an editor who declares something an "abuse of userspace" one minute is acting in good faith when xyr next actions, in relation to the editor who is, supposedly, abusing that userspace, are to then attempt to re-claim, and prevent the deletion of, the page in xyr own user space.

There's plenty more evidence to be found. I'm not going to provide an exhaustive list because, as yet another editor has said, doing so is a large task (and I really want to get around to society page, which I keep getting distracted from, some time this century). Here are some of the highlights, therefore:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Lazarus Effect (film) — I mentioned snowball keep decisions where single editors stand out, earlier. Here's one such. The editor standing out is JBsupreme.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of mobile Internet Relay Chat clients (2nd nomination) — JBsupreme and Miami33139 reiterating their argument, presented numerous times before to sound rejection by many people, that it's not up to the two of them to put in the effort of looking for sources for information that has no sources cited, but that that's Someone Else's Problem.
(Of course, this is a re-nomination of an article that Tothwolf actually did work on, by the same editor as before, and, as can be seen from Special:Contributions/JBsupreme, one made a mere two hours after the messing around at User:Tothwolf/List of Internet Relay Chat clients.)
edit to Ircle — Miami33139 demonstrating this attitude in action, even though some of the information removed (dealing with the authorship) is directly sourceable to page 58 of the very book cited in the AFD discussion.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kaicho — Another piece of evidence that putting deletion and content policies into action correctly is at a new low. At the point of this discussion contribution by JBsupreme, the article in question had stood like this for just over 12 hours. Not only is no effort being put into looking for sources, it's fairly clear that little, possibly no, effort is being put into even reading the articles themselves before joining in deletion discussions.
"PENDING REVISIONS WINS AGAIN SUCKERS" — Even the note about decorum in the arbitration case has failed to register.

So it seems to me that nothing particularly good has come out of the previous arbitration case. The interaction restrictions are being gamed, the taunting continues, and the behaviour in deletion discussions is even less an example of good practice than it was those several months ago. I think that it's time that the arbitration committee, or the community at large, address some of the clearly unaddressed problems here, that we are being deflected away from by motions such as this one, more directly. If Tothwolf were subtracted from this entirely, there would still be concerns to answer on the parts of the other accounts. Tothwolf hasn't behaved well, and clearly could have garnered more sympathy by writing and contributing, rather than arguing. But Tothwolf being the focus, or the entirety of the cause, clearly isn't correct. As observed, Miami33139's actions are serving quite ironically here to show that the spotlight should be shining on other accounts a bit more than it has done.

To that end, I suggest that it is in Tothwolf's best interests to concentrate upon article writing, rather than this, for a time. I suggest, for starters, getting ircle past stub status.

Uncle G (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jehochman, ominously

I will take resolute action next time Tothwolf complains to me about baiting, taunting or bullying by the folks who've already been warned. Those folks would do well to steer a wide path around Tothwolf, and to scrupulously avoid committing similar abuse of any other editors. You have the chance to make exactly one more mistake. I especially like DGG's analysis.Jehochman ^Talk 11:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Collapsing earlier comments

Having read the ANI thread that led to this, I think what we have here is a case of WP:BOOMERANG. From what I've seen so far, I'm more inclined to propose amending the case to restrict User:Miami33139 (who filed this request). I'm particularly unimpressed by the "Waambulance" and "whine one one" taunts. I would like to see statements from Tothwolf and JBSupreme and theserialcomma, and also (if he is prepared to make a statement) Uncle G, who left a note about this on an arbitration page somewhere recently saying that things were boiling over in this area again. I'm also concerned about comments that the civility restriction passed on JBSupreme is not having any effect. Possible ways to proceed here would be a wide-ranging non-interaction restriction between Tothwolf and JBSupreme, theserialcomma and Miami33139, or even reopening the case in light of this continuing behaviour. Carcharoth (talk) 23:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- @Miami33139 I'm saying I'm unimpressed with your conduct at the ANI thread and the comments you left. You seem to be under a mistaken impression about the conclusions of the arbitration case. Changes in conduct was expected from all parties, and returning to the conduct that led to the arbitration case is likely to see a re-imposition of sanctions and/or warnings. Currently I'm waiting for my colleagues to comment on this amendment request, but in the meantime it would be good to see some more statements here. Tothwolf has mentioned Uncle G above, so I will ask him if he is able to make a statement here. Carcharoth (talk) 23:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to Uncle G for the statement and thanks to others for their statements. There should be enough here now to allow an assessment of what to do here. Currently waiting for further comments from other arbitrators before deciding where to go from here. Carcharoth (talk) 00:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Carcharoth. Miami, the comments you have made are over the line and cross into NPA. You are apparently unable or unwilling to see that. I agree with Carcharoth that this area may need to be reopened, or an amendment passed here. SirFozzie (talk) 02:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Tothwolf is the wrongdoer here. I don't know whether this requires an amendment, but it does appear to be hounding to me. Move on, Miami. Cool Hand Luke 14:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We may need to reopen this matter for some form of review. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:25, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have two issues to address here - Miami33139 and JBSupreme's behavior towards Tothwolf and in deletion discussions. Shell ^babelfish 21:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC) Update: I've proposed some motions, 2 new remedies in the case and one minor update to reflect what appear to be the prevailing concerns. Due to confusion over interaction restrictions in the past, I've attempted to flesh out the restriction a bit more and wouldn't be adverse to other Arbs tweaking it if I've missed the boat there. Shell ^babelfish 08:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Shell, thanks for advancing the discussion. Re the section below, are these ideas you are raising for discussion purposes or are you asking that they be voted on as motions. If the latter, someone (I'll do it if I'm here, or a clerk, or anyone really) should set them up with the support/oppose/etc. paraphernalia. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Oops :-) I've added in the bits I completely missed since they were meant as motions, but I'm certainly open to discussing any of the motions and changing them as needed. Shell ^babelfish 10:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motions

1) Tothwolf (talk · contribs · logs), Miami33139 (talk · contribs · logs) and JBsupreme (talk · contribs · logs) are banned from interacting with each other, broadly construed. This includes things like not editing each other's userspace, not becoming involved directly with each other in discussions, and not nominating articles for deletion which another one has started. This does not prohibit commenting in the same discussion without directly interacting or editing the same articles so long as they are not directly in conflict. They may request enforcement of this restriction at the Arbitration Enforcement board or by email to the Arbitration mailing list; they may not request enforcement or action against each other for any other reason or at any other venue. Attempts to game this restriction should be treated as a violation of the restriction.

Enacted - Dougweller (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There being 9 active Arbitrators, none of whom are recused, the majority is 5

Support

Carcharoth (talk) 00:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Shell ^babelfish 20:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SirFozzie (talk) 02:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Roger Davies ^talk 07:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
— Coren ^(talk) 13:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
— Rlevse • Talk • 23:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 01:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We can try this regime and see if it helps. If not, we may need to reopen the original case for a more thorough review of recent developments. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mailer Diablo 20:24, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
KnightLago (talk) 00:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain

2) Miami33139 (talk · contribs · logs) is subject to an editing restriction for six months. Should Miami33139 make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith or disruptive to deletion discussions, Miami33139 may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement portion of the case. The six months starts from the day this motion passes.

Enacted - Dougweller (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Abstain

The reason for the motion is understandable, but I think (1) might well be sufficient and my preference would be to try it alone first. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

3) Remedy 2 (already updated once) is changed to "JBsupreme (talk · contribs · logs) is subject to an editing restriction for six months. Should JBsupreme make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith, or disruptive to deletion discussions, JBsupreme may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below." The six months is reset to start from the day this motion passes.

Enacted - Dougweller (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Abstain

Per my comment on (2). Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European Mailing List (4)

Initiated by Martin (talk) at 20:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 7

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

N/A

Amendment 1

[58]
This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 7 to end the topic ban that applies to Martintg and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Martintg

The locus of the WP:EEML case relates to off-wiki co-ordination and canvassing, which was done via a mail list. In the nearly nine months since I've taken stock, while taking a break to pursue some postgrad study. During that time I've reflected on what went wrong. I joined the maillist primarily as a convenient way to socially network with a bunch of people I've come to know through contributing to Wikipedia. Unfortunately this convenience led members of the list, myself included, into behaviour that crossed the line. This was due to a kind of mob mentality and a sense of hubris that developed along with it. This I regret. Prior to joining that list I was an editor in good standing, a clear block log, no ANI reports, no 3RR reports, no RFC/Us, no ArbCom cases about me, nothing.

In support I would like the committee to consider:

my previously un-problematic record (clean block log prior to joining the EEML and this affirmation of my previously good standing), indicating there is no issue of recidivism
my previous relaxation [59] had caused no problem
no violations of any WP:EEML sanctions since the case closed
your support for the relaxation of the topic ban for other editors
my expression of regret at the trouble caused by EEML membership and undertaking to put all that behind me

Since December I have created some articles on German politicians and political organisations and had sourced a small number of Estonian biographies without any issues (many were not notable so I hadn't bothered with those) after I requested and was granted a relaxation to my topic ban[60].

In regard to my plans in the area, I would like to continue to expand the range of arts and literature topics for Wikiproject Estonia. Previously I had filled in many significant gaps such as Culture of Estonia, along with a lot of related articles on literary figures (for example August Sang, Villem Grünthal-Ridala, Johannes Aavik), movements (e.g. Arbujad, Young Estonia and Siuru) and institutions like Art Museum of Estonia and Estonian Literary Museum. (A more comprehensive list is on my user page). There is still a lot to do, as you can see by the red links in Template:Culture_of_Estonia. Despite my continuing studies I expect to devote a little more of my time than in the past few months, as I do enjoy contributing my free time to Wikipedia.

Having ended such off-wiki co-ordination, and given an undertaking not to engage in such behaviour going forward, the conditions that led to the problematical behaviour no longer exists. There will be no off-wiki coordination, no canvassing, no usage of hidden communication to create the appearance of a consensus. I have learnt my lesson, will ensure this will be avoided in the future.

On a final note, I could have just as easily waited out the remainder of my topic ban and quietly slipped back into editing the area without subjecting myself to this, without having to acknowledge the issues that led to topic ban or make an undertaking in regard to the future. The fact I am requesting an early relaxation and thus am prepared to acknowledge these issues and make the undertaking should be viewed as a positive development by the committee and be applauded, not ignored or viewed sceptically (which would be wholly unjustified given my previous good standing and good behaviour since).

Response to Motions

After nearly eight weeks of waiting, I am appreciative that the Committee is finally acting on this and has proposed a couple of motions. But I have to question whether Brad's proposed motion isn't a pandora's box of gaming potential (as it was originally pointed out when he first proposed it in the EEML case). Not gaming by me, but by my opponents who would seek to exploit the ambiguity present to game and shop for admin action.

This isn't an idle concern, recently Biophys was topic banned from editing articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics [61], yet when he edited Pyotr Chaadayev, an 18th Century figure of Imperial Russia (thus clearly not a former Soviet republic and outside the scope of his ban), that didn't stop his opponents from claiming otherwise [62][63], with one going as far as suggesting that Biophys broke his topic ban because the source of the quote he inserted into Pyotr Chaadayev was from a book written by an author who also wrote about the Soviet Union![64][65], while admins like Jechochman ominously choose to take the negative view[66], despite Shell clarifying the scope of the topic ban [67]

So I'm not confident that creating an article as innocuous as Visual arts in Estonia will not attract the attention of my opponents who would attempt to wiki-lawyer a case that I had violated this new amended topic ban and shop for admin action, given that the Soviet period had a significant impact on visual arts in Estonia. I don't think it would be fair on me to provide such a vague amendment that has the potential to be gamed and invite such a circus to decend upon me.

Therefore, given that I've already served almost 8 month of my topic ban, I ask that the committee take into consideration my former good standing, post ban good behaviour and assurances going forward (which seemed sufficient here so why aren't mine?) and support the first motion to lift my ban entirely so that I can have clear air to make a positive contribution without the threat of vexatious litigation. --Martin (talk) 06:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Igny's comments

Shortly after being granted permission to source a number of BLPs, I had an opportunity to undertake some study. Unfortunately about a month later, Igny involved me in an SPI case, however somebody kindly informed me of this via email. I can't recall having really interacted with him that much prior to the EEML case, so it was somewhat surprising that he would go after me like that.

Russavia also became involved in this SPI case too, as he did in a number of other AE cases launching complaints against Radeksz, Biruitorul and Biophys. Consequently the Russavia-Biophys ArbCom case was opened. I took that opportunity to request an interaction ban for Russavia. I believe I conducted myself correctly in that case and Shell even appreciated my decorum [68]. Igny ended up getting blocked for 31 hours[69] for misconduct on the case workshop.

Igny states I wasted everyone's time in that ArbCom case. It is true that I did waste a bit of time, it could have been spent more productively on my studies, but I think given the outcome it was well worth the effort. It's not a nice experience to be informed by email that some are still on the warpath. The way I see it, the bulk of the problems really boil down to personality clashes, some people are just implacably opposed to each other no matter what. Sad, but it's a fact of life. Probably in such cases interaction bans are the way to go when editors can't voluntarily refrain from finding fault and battling with others.

I'm perplexed at Igny's comments here, given that he hasn't made that many recent edits himself either. We all operate under different constraints. After completing the semester I found time from family and friends to source those BLPs that I had committed to sourcing. Wikipedia is a free project, which also means that anyone can devote as little or as much time as they can. I believe I'm a competent editor with an understanding of Wikipedia's policies. I've had a long time to re-think things during my self imposed "site ban", and I do "get it" now. I just want to get on and derive some enjoyment from contributing to topics that interest me while allowing others to do the same, without this battleground BS. 2009 was an adventure I do not want to repeat. --Martin (talk) 05:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further response to Igny's comments

I am some what mystified by Igny's claims of "our personal clashes in the past", as I can't recall a single instance where we might of clashed personally, apart from the recent SPI[70] Igny launched against me while I was away, let alone interacted to any significant degree on any particular article. I just scanned the EEML archive and Igny isn't mentioned at all, so he didn't appear on the list's radar. Perhaps he may have been somewhat radicalised by the EEML case itself, and may have adopted other people's past battles as his own. I hope that is not the case, since from what I have seen of Igny in the past, he seems to be quite a reasonable person with which I could work with.

As to Igny's question whether a topic ban is designed to demonstrate if an "editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes", note that I had edited German related topics in January and February with no problems, and I think I amply demostrated decorum in my response to an EE dispute not of my making thrust upon me by Igny in the form of the SPI in March and again in the follow-up Russavia-Biophy case (and note that I didn't involve Igny in my proposals presented in the case workshop). So the risk of problematic behaviour has been demonstrated to be nil. --Martin (talk) 00:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Biophy's comments

Notwithstanding the fact that Biophys may well be risking a violation of his topic ban by commenting here, my involvement in the Russavia-Biophys case was related to Russavia's behaviour in the SPI case[71], revealing personal information even when asked to stop, for which there was a FoF[72] and an Admonishment[73] and a Restriction[74]. It is true that I spent a bit too much time at the end of the case arguing for more equitable topic bans for the parties with Shell, as that end part did impact my study time a bit, and I probably ended up just annoying Shell too (sorry Shell). In that sense it was a distraction, but in terms of seeking an reciprocal interaction ban (which remains in force regardless of whether or not my topic ban is relaxed) was necessary and unavoidable under the circumstances. --Martin (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see no battleground here. People are free to express their views or concerns on this page. I welcome this as it gives me an opportunity to respond as necessary to allay any legitimate concern. --Martin (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is true that I have commented in a few ArbCom cases, but my conduct in doing so has been exemplary and I was motivated by the desire to reduce the level of conflict in that space. If some people are upset that I did comment, well I guess that is to be expected. The Committee can and does examine the behaviour of anyone participating, as they did in the Eastern European disputes case. Krohn's mysterious emailer had every opportunity to present evidence against me, and I'm sure they did during that case however the Committee exercised their judgement. --Martin (talk) 11:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to The Four Deuce's comments

I've virtually never interacted with TFD in the past, the first time being when I voted "Keep" at this AfD [75] which resulted in "No Concensus". I did canvas that on the EEML and that was wrong, no bones about it. After the EEML ArbCom case began there a two more AfDs [76][77] where only two or three EEML members independently voted and these resulted in "No Concensus", despite the closing admin being made aware of the existance of the EEML case and its membership. Finally a 4th AfD[78] was initiated this year where absolutely no one from the EEML voted, yet it resulted in a "Keep". While it was clearly wrong to canvass the first AfD, non-involvement in the 4th actually resulted in an outcome I would have wanted anyway. Go figure.

And yet TFD appears to be continuing to invoke the EEML bogey man in that article, recently claiming "When the article was listed for deletion, they decided off-wiki to rename the article", when in fact the original move discussion had no EEML involvement and predated the AfD, in fact the very first AfD comment confirms that. I don't know why The Four Deuces is singling me out in particular and WP:Poking me with untrue stuff.

TFD's statement has in my view many misleading points, so I'll address them line by line:

"Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry."

No, I didn't say that at all. There is nothing wrong with the individuals, but unfortunately a mob mentality developed and led some of us of otherwise good standing (I had a clear block log prior to joining the EEML) to cross the line, which I regret.

"However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to."

Sure, the canvassing was wrong, I accept that, but I stand by the substance of all my edits (but in some cases not the form, i.e. the occasional edit warring). I not sure why I need to apologise to TFD though, I've not known TFD prior to the EEML case.

"This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them."

This is an incredible blanket statement. TFD has no idea what my politics are, or that of other members, and I ended collaboration with the list at beginning of the case. The political viewpoints are as diverse as can be expected by the differing backgrounds and locations of the group members. For example, in my estimation, the majority of the group is for gun control and against Arizona's immigration laws.

"They do not accept that Wikipedia articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality."

Again this is a nonsense blanket statement. I've always striven for neutrality, as you can see from the many articles I've created.

"It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach."

This is an absolutely, flat out untrue.

"Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes."

I don't know who TFD is referring to here, but I don't think I should become the whipping boy of all that he thinks is wrong with Wikipedia.

"Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg."

Again I don't know who TFD is referring too here, my record shows that I have a relatively clean record in this regard, apart from a block for a 3RR violation that was applied 20 hours after I had undone my 4th revert, and a mis-applied block for alleged OUTING that never ocurred. In fact the Committee previously scrutinized my record and found no substantive policy violation [79]

I don't understand what TFD seeks to gain in continuing to flog the EEML dead horse, even insinuating there is some kind of far-right anti-Semitic agenda at play[80] (not the first time either, having to redact similar comment previously [81]), which I find somewhat offensive. I do wonder why I have become the whipping boy of people like TFD who I have never crossed paths with in the past. Nor is it likely that I will interact with him in the future as our interests are divergent. At least Piotrus has the benefit of real opponents with real history of interaction and real issues which can be worked on. But as far as I'm concerned, the EEML horse is truly dead and buried. --Martin (talk) 06:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question to Rlevse

Could you provide some guidance as to the reasons for your opposition, given:

my previous relaxation [82] had caused no problem
my previously un-problematic record (clean block log prior to joining the EEML and this affirmation of my previously good standing), indicating there is no issue of recidivism
no violations of any WP:EEML sanctions (unlike Biruitorul and Radeksz, both who have had their topic bans lifted)
my expression of regret at the trouble caused by EEML membership and undertaking to put all that behind me
your explicit support for the relaxation of the topic ban for Radeksz[83] despite the strong concerns expressed by several editors who have a long history of interaction with him.

I just want to use my time to contribute something useful to the topics I've indicated above, all I ask is that I be treated fairly. --Martin (talk) 02:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why Rlevse remains unconvinced. The locus of the WP:EEML case involved off-wiki co-ordination and canvassing, which was done via a mail list. Prior to joining that list I was in good standing, a clear block log, no ANI reports, no 3RR reports, no RFC/Us, no ArbCom cases about me, nothing. Having ended such off-wiki co-ordination, and given an undertaking not to engage in such behaviour going forward, I don't understand the basis of Rlevse's reluctance, given that he was previously supported lifting the sanction of another editor with a similar FoF. The conditions that led to the problematical behaviour no longer exists, and having learnt my lesson, will ensure any similar will be avoided in the future. --Martin (talk) 11:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Petri Krohn's comments

What can I say in response to a guy who claims I am the "chief battle axe" "promoting a fringe nationalistic agenda" that "has taken the form of a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century", while associating himself[84] in his statement to a radical political organisation operating in Finland then accusing me of attempting to "distort Wikipedia to fit his political agenda". Hmmmm. I don't have any political agenda, I've never have been a member of any political group, let alone one with a published manifesto. Nor have I ever agitated at protest events or even have a blog, let alone write letters to editors. I'm just a regular Joe who enjoys editing Wikipedia in my spare time, attempting to reflect reliable sources with due weight to the best of my abilities. I would suggest that Petri Krohn removes his huge political plank from his eye before complaining about the speck he perceives in my eye.

What is even more spooky is his accusation that "this has extended to multiple forums on the Internet outside Wikipedia" and that "evidence sent to me were new instances of this campaign". Okay, should I be getting scared now that this individual appears to be stalking me outside Wikipedia gathering non-existent "evidence" of this "global ideological war"? Petri Krohn threatens to start an ArbCom case against me should this motion pass, he is free to do so if he wishes.

Petri Krohn has also appended what seems essentially to be a polemic written by someone "who wishes to remain anonymous" presented as evidence. Who ever this anonymous person is, perhaps it is Petri Krohn himself, I will never the less address the main points:

All the diffs cited in point 2 in relation to the article Denial of the Holodomor are from 2008. Edit warring in that article was investigated in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes. I don't think it appropriate to re-litigate something from 2008. In any case I've not edited that article since September 2008.
Regarding point 3, whether a topic ban extends to commenting on a particular editor when there is no interaction ban in place is a grey area that certain admins have taken a position on. I note that Biophys has commented upon myself despite his topic ban here in this amendment request without consequence. However, when advised by such admins to desist in particular cases I have complied.

Petri Krohn admits that his involvement here was a result of being canvassed offline by someone unknown, stating "However, someone, who wishes to remain anonymous, contacted me, and – knowing the strong feelings I have privately expressed about the issue at hand – implied that I am a pussy if I do not express my strongest objection to this motion". So evidently there is an element of off-wiki co-ordination going on here. (Perhaps TFD was also canvassed off-wiki to comment here, that would explain his involvement given no real history between us, who knows). It is a pity that Petri has chosen to resume this troubled path of confrontation, apparently driven by what he perceives as his "global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century", but I'm simply not going to buy into it.

Why should some one like Petri Krohn, apparently an activist with a clear and documented political agenda, be allowed to smear me and sour my editing experience because he imagines me to be his political enemy solely because I happen to have an interest in Baltic topics? --Martin (talk) 04:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PS, I'm intrigued by Krohn's reference to the Simon Wiesenthal Center in his statement. I checked out that article and found and fixed some issues. But I don't see the relevance here, unless Petri Krohn is attempting to insinuate something that editors were warned not to do in a previous ArbCom case[85]. --Martin (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Vecrumba's comments

Well sure, if the Committee wants to impose some kind of conditionality, that's fine with me. ArbCom wouldn't even need to be watching that closely, as it's been demonstrated here that there are more than enough eyes to scrutinise my behaviour, even by those wiki-warriors who believe there is a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century^TM. Note that I did complete BLP sourcing after a previous relaxation[86] without any issue or drama, so it would be disappointing if the Committee where to now apply the brakes and not relax the topic ban further in some way. I could have just as easily waited out the remainder of my topic ban and return to editing later, I've got plenty of other things to do in the mean time. However the fact that I am requesting an early return should be viewed as a positive development as it indicates that I have acknowledged the issues of the past and have undertaken to more forward. --Martin (talk) 20:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Artem Karimov's comments

I'll keep it short. I've never ever come across Artem Karimov in the past, never interacted with him or even worked on a common set of articles beyond a random intersection. So I don't know how he would know what my politics or inclinations are, certainly not "pro-nationalist", what ever that means, or why he would choose comment here. I wonder what next some other random person will accuse me of being. --Martin (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Igny

I can not recommend the lift of the ban for Martin based on his recent WP activity. In the recent 100 edits he just wasted everyone's time when participating in Russavia-Biophys EEML-related ArbCom case, and after some break just when EEML case was due for review and just when others filed for an amendment Martin rushed with several BLP fixes for EE related persons as if it was simply done to satisfy the previous amendment and justify a new one. (Igny (talk) 04:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Update: I understand I could be too harsh in my statement and quite possibly our personal clashes in the past contributed to this. But in any case a "site-wide self-imposed ban" is not the right way to deal with topic bans. Topic bans were placed in part to reduce battleground mentality in controversial areas and productive work elsewhere was needed to demonstrate how an editor in question copes with withdrawal from the battleground. Just going into self-imposed exile for the length of the topic ban (regardless of the real life constraints) does poor job answering the question whether editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes. I still think that Martin's lift of the ban is premature at the moment. Also tu quoque was not the right counter-argument to my point above.(Igny (talk) 13:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Re NYB and SirFozzie, I understand that you are willing to put your trust in that Martintg will not return to the "previous behavior". Could you clarify by showing examples of particular behavior that might warrant reinstatement of the ban? (Igny (talk) 21:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Statement by Biophys

I support lifting the ban for Martin because he was productive and created sixty six new pages. Whatever problems he might have in the past, six months was a long time, and Martin was never a major "violator" anywhere. So I wonder what was the reason for the statements against him? Most probably, this is happening because he commented in a number of cases, including my case (which he was allowed to do). He should not be commenting on any cases according to the anonymous e-mailer to Petri. No so. In fact, the comments by Marting on-wiki were very much legitimate, much better than the cowardly letter by the anonymous emailer to Petri. Biophys (talk) 12:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Four Deuces

I object to lifting this remedy. Considerable time was spent on the EEML case and its members, rather than accepting the facts presented, wasted months of time of arbitrators and witnesses and were very offensive to them. Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry. However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to. This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them. They do not accept that Wikipedia articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality. It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach. Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes. Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg. TFD (talk) 04:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Petri Krohn

I loathe getting in any way involved in the Wikipedia arbitration process and have thus far been able to avoid any involvement – so much so, that I have not even written a word to my defense in the now infamous WP:DIGWUREN case. However, someone, who wishes to remain anonymous, contacted me, and – knowing the strong feelings I have privately expressed about the issue at hand – implied that I am a pussy if I do not express my strongest objection to this motion. He also sent me evidence (see appendix) he had prepared in response to Martin's latest comments.

Martin's actions on the Internet, on and off Wikipedia, show that his only interest on the web is promoting a fringe nationalistic agenda, or in Wikipedia terms, he is a single purpose account. Since our paths first crossed sometime in early 2007 the underlying dispute has taken the form of a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century. I believe in some ways the early editing disputes and the formulation of opposing positions on Wikipedia talk pages have later influenced the positions some of the main players in this battle have taken. I may be as much involved in this ideological battle as Marting is. However I have not used Wikipedia article space as a platform to promote my fringe ideas. I will rather let the Historical Truth Commission and the Simon Wiesenthal Center speak for me.

From this POVish point of expertise I can testify that Marting is the chief battle axe of the opposing side. He is not the benign Wikignome he now pretends to be. Anything he touches will turn into distortion of facts or into a political battlefield. His presence on Wikipedia, in the contested subjects, is venom to the key principle of neutral point-of-view. So far he has shown no interest in editing outside his chosen battlefield, for example in his field of professional expertise.

For several years now Martin has been waging a politically motivated attack campaign against me, that is my Wikipedia account and the real life me. This has extended to multiple forums on the Internet outside Wikipedia. In the evidence sent to me were new instances of this campaign, unknown to me previously. If this proposed motion were to pass, I feel that I will finally have to start an arbitration case against Marting on this issue.

I have no objections to Martin using his freedom of speech to promote his ideas on the Internet. However, I cannot see why – having broken the key principles of Wikipedia – he should again be given a license to distort Wikipedia to fit his political agenda. -- Petri Krohn (talk)

Appendix: Evidence in response to Marting

Let me respond to Martintg's argumentation addressed to Rlevse because the points are so easily refutable.

1) of course the previous relaxation had caused no problem. Nor did Radeksz's or Piotrus's. In all cases they were used as basis to demand more like a slippery slope.

2) you never had a previously un-problematic record. Since the start of your Martintg account you revealed what Arbcom referred to as "poor behavior". Arbcom claimed no "good standing" in the Eastern European disputes arbitration, just that no actionable evidence against you was provided and that was the case. You were all battering Irpen, who refused that the scope should be changed from Piotrus and was overwhelmed by what became known as the EEML team. Provision of actionable evidence and the existence of actionable evidence is not the same, e.g. Irpen was sanctioned on the evidence of 22 reverts in the Holodomor denial article [87] put on an indefinite 1RR per week with the obligation to discuss every single one. [88]. One could have equally added Martintg's 15 reverts in the previous months on that article

[89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99] [100] [101] [102] [103]

3) Martintg did little else than take exceptional efforts to violate the spirit of the topic ban and remain an attention-seeking nuisance in the EE topic area despite topic ban. Immediately after the Arbitration ended, Martintg was back on arguing at Mass killings under Communist regimes, [104] falling into the scope of the ban. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification&diff=prev&oldid=335698266 Next, he violated the spirit of the Russavia interaction ban and the EE topic ban with a comment about Russavia that sounded positive but had teeth [105] and needed to be reminded [106] Next, Martintg disrupted an EE-related AE and was warned by Sandstein. [107] Still showing the finger, Martintg violated the topic ban again voting on Petri Krohn [108] that was removed [109] Martintg reverted the admin [110] and continued [111], getting warned again [112]. Next came Offliner [113] and soon after the Biophys arbitration [114]. AE request on Biruitorul? Martintg was there.[115] Finally came Radeksz's amendment request.[116]

4) Let me sum up what you wrote: you're all innocent, joined good-heartedly and suddenly became a victim to a mob mentality and hubris and crossed the line. That's not accepting fault but whitewashing and playing down.

5) The destruction of Radeksz's topic ban led to this [117] [118]. For some reason this looks just like the pre-EEML-discovery Radeksz.

Amendment – I find this latest edit by Martintg a clear indication that he is NOT ready to enter into editing EE topics. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vecrumba

To TheFourDeuces' gross misrepresentations, suppositions, and personal attacks, I invite him to provide evidence where anything I (or other EEML members) have represented on Wikipedia is other than a fair and accurate representation of reputable sources—and representing majority scholarly opinion on the Baltics and Eastern Europe. I regret that more than half a year has passed since imposition of the topic ban and TFD is not alone in continuing to demonstrate offensive bad faith in re-litigating EEML with unfounded charges.

I believe Martintg is ready to return to productive editing. If his behavior is less than exemplary, ArbCom will be watching. Perhaps a review at three months to "re-up" the lifting of his topic ban for the rest of the original term if impartial, uninvolved editors have a genuine concern. Martintg has nothing to fear from objective scrutiny. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 23:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Jehochman: Please desist from further discussion of private correspondence. Any discussion of you emanated from your acting as a proxy filing an arbitration request as a direct result of Offliner's lobbying you. I regret needing to remind you that you were the origin and only reason for your own mention. This is the second instance of your discussing private correspondence and professing to be a victim of EEML editors. At least I now know (your feeling you were victimized when you, in fact, victimized Baltic and EE editors) where your outrageous accusation came from that I likened Giano to Nazi Germany at the EEML proceedings. Please consider taking your own advice and stepping away for a spot of tea. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 01:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Artem Karimov

I will keep it short. Pro-nationalist editors involved in disrupting Wikipedia should be topic-banned for quite some time. I doubt that lifting Marting's ban would be a net positive for the project. Artem Karimov (talk | edits) 12:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jehochman

I oppose any loosening of sanctions on Martintg, unless there is a specific restriction against pursuing past disputes stemming from the EEML Case. Per my explanation here, Martintg has recently been violating or testing the limits of his existing topic ban. My name featured prominently in the mailing list archives as somebody to be neutralized. It is not at all appropriate for Martintg to be carrying on, today, a vendetta against me. Jehochman ^Talk 01:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC) and 12:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Recused on EEML. Shell ^babelfish 19:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recused Roger Davies ^talk 12:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — Rlevse • Talk • 02:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

will think on this more. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am simply unconvinced. Would reconsider around Oct. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As with some of the other editors who were sanctioned in this decision, I would be agreeable to at least some curtailment or narrowing of the remedy—partly based on the feeling that the breadth of the remedy may have been wider than necessary to begin with, and in any event due to the lapse of time. Of course, if the remedy is lifted or narrowed, there would be a strong expectation that the problematic behaviors addressed in the original decision must not recur. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- My view remains as stated. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at this, I'd be willing to let this go, with the caveat that there's not much wiggle room here, and that a return to previous behaviors will mean it's near-immediate reinstatement. SirFozzie (talk) 20:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would consider a lifting or narrowing of the restrictions now, or in the future between now and October ~~but, will not be initiating that myself~~. I think more arbitrators need to comment first. Carcharoth (talk) 23:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Update: Will post a motion this week. Carcharoth (talk) 05:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Noting that I've read Martintg's response and the postings at the user talk pages of Newyorkbrad and Rlevse, and my votes remain as posted below. I would ask that the editors that oppose this amendment think twice before trying to dispute editing that Martintg does following the passing of the alternative amendment. It will only serve to promote more ill-feeling. At some point, you need to learn how to work together, even if that seems impossible right now. And if you can't work together, learn to avoid each other. Carcharoth (talk) 18:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we had good success in the past with a more gradual return to the topic area, and I would support a more limited relaxation at this time. I am not, however, very favorable to removing it entirely at this time. — Coren ^(talk) 00:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion (Martintg topic ban)

Remedy 7 of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Martintg topic banned") is lifted.

There being 8 active Arbitrators, not counting 1 who is recused, the majority is 5.

Support

Carcharoth (talk) 23:57, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

In favor of alternative motion below. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Prefer the alternative. Risker (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Too much too fast. Support alternative below. — Coren ^(talk) 15:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
— Rlevse • Talk • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Abstain

Recuse

Shell ^babelfish 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative motion

Remedy 7 of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list "Martintg topic banned") is replaced with the following:

Martintg (talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics, until December 22, 2010 (one year from the closing of the original case).

Support

I think this modification would allow Martintg to edit all the articles he's mentioned in his request, without getting involved in the nationalist dispute articles that have previously been troublesome for these editors. The existing broader topic-ban expires in December, and I've left that timing unchanged. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some additional discussion is on my talkpage here. My apologies for the cross-posting, but I'd responded to both Martintg and Jehochman there before seeing that they'd posted here as well. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good alternative. Carcharoth (talk) 01:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Risker (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This, I can support. — Coren ^(talk) 15:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SirFozzie (talk) 02:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
— Rlevse • Talk • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
KnightLago (talk) 00:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain

Recuse

Shell ^babelfish 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]