Talk:List of Angry Video Game Nerd episodes

First Season

Is there any good reason why the first two AVGN episodes, from '04, are lumped in with the 2006 season? I would've thought they would a) represent a season in of themselves, or b) be considered to precede the "seasonal" formal altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.209.163 (talk) 06:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Length of Table Cells

I want to get everyone's opinion on how information is being displayed in these tables. The content is growing everyday - and it has reached a point where it might be detrimental to the page. I would suggest that each Description Cell adopts a format with two paragraphs. The first will a list of the games/systems reviewed. We should replace the breaks with commas. The second paragraph would contain any special notes. Let me know what you think. Cheers! -DevinCook (talk) 18:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with DevinCook. Having a break after every game title is very wasteful (only a few characters per line) and the cell heights vary widely (2 to ~20 lines). Same for the notes: break after each sentence (inconsistent at the moment) not necessary. Rror (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I would employ the KISS principle and have only data (games reviewed, time) separated by comma and no additional fluff (e.g., this is the first time Nerd destroys...). StevePrutz (talk) 22:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Breaks rectified while keeping table rows short. --Addict 2006 23:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Written by Mike Matei?

Matei is nowhere credited for writing/co-writing, and in this interview states that he is helping with many aspects of the episodes, but does not write his own parts. Rror (talk) 13:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Rolfe writes the majority of show with occasional input by Matei. From the same article "I also play the games a lot with James. Playing games and coming up with ideas I think is often a more fun process for James when there is another person there" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.250.232.218 (talk) 02:15, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Matei is often credited as "Help" because of various functions on the show including playing the game, acting, drawing and writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nerdartist (talk • contribs) 00:32, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Links to episodes

Wikipedia policy states that Wikipedia is not a repository of links. It is of course convenient to have links to all the episodes but according to the policy, isn't Wikipedia supposed to not be something like that? (Just as a notation, from the Finnish article of The Angry Video Game Nerd, the links to the episodes have already been removed.) Apoyon (talk) 19:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree to some extend, but this article is more like a list of WP:EPISODES (with title, date, 'synopsis') which also contains links to the videos. I know, it's not TV :) and there are no secondary sources, but they are not just bare links. Rror (talk) 22:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

YouTube Links

There has been a movement to change all links on this page to copies on YouTube. However, it is important to keep the links official with the links on the AVGN website. Some videos were published to YouTube before the show was picked up by ScrewAttack and GameTrailers. Once this happened, videos were published on the respective GameTrailers page.-DevinCook (talk) 14:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Related videos section

I feel that there are too many irrelevant videos in the related videos section. Just because a video has Rolfe in it or it was made by him, does not automatically mean that it should go in that section. I think it should be limited to videos starring Rolfe as the AVGN (not in a cameo role) that do not fit into the regular episode list. Andy120290 (talk) 04:01, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, after all this article is about the AVGN, not Rolfe.--Megaman en m (talk) 09:51, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed some stuff. Some of it, like "James Rolfe – Meet the Nerd!," could probably go as well, but I am not sure. I will leave it to the talk. Andy120290 (talk) 17:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

check the related videos table

I don't know how to make the change to correct the problem...sorry. but, something is wrong with the way the related videos section is displaying. It shouldn't be in the table above it, but should start it's own table. If anyone can fix it, that would be a great improvement to this already very useful page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brvman (talk • contribs) 05:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

Can anyone please re-edit the list of the episodes from Season 1? Somebody enlarged the boxes and put descriptions saying that James rip the Irate Gamer's videos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.108.9.240 (talk) 16:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Original Research

The current version of this article contains numerous little factoids included in the list that are fairly obviously Original Research. I'm referring to things like "first episode to not use the word 'fuck'". These do not belong and I think they should be removed. I'm just dropping a comment in case anyone has an issue with this. -Verdatum (talk) 08:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Theme Song

Isn't there an episode where they play the full version of the theme song. I can't seem to remember which one it is... Dustman15 (talk) 23:06, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

It's the Sega CD Rewiev. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.196.232.252 (talk) 09:08, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Nintoaster... so what?

Well, we can say that the nintoaster was used for the first time, on the Action 52 rewiev, but do we need to say that he keep using it? we can assume he will use it from now on. what do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.196.232.252 (talk) 09:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree, him using it is very trivial, and not important in any way to the game he is reviewing. CTJF83 chat 16:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Page needs simplification

We might want to remove the synopsis of each episode. As it stands now, the page might be considered an "episode guide" which is against Wiki policies. I suggest that the description cell only contains games reviewed. Otherwise, this page can become ridiculously complex. -DevinCook (talk) 13:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, I've cleaned up before, but you know how IPs go... CTJF83 chat 02:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I would like to remove all the text besides the console/system and games reviewed from the Notes column.-DevinCook (talk) 12:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Removal of External Links

• External Links do not the body of the article. Wikipediea is not a collection of external links and external links should not normally be used in the body of an article. It is not a directory to help you find individual episodes. duffbeerforme (talk) 07:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Even though I am bias in favor of the show, he is correct on the Wikipedia policy. The links need to be removed in addition to cleaning up the notes field. -DevinCook (talk) 12:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
    • I love AVGN and agree with both of you. I was going through one time and removing everything after the first time an episode "aired", but got bored and stopped. So if someone wants to remove all the ELs from the body, go for it. CTJF83 chat 14:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
      • I find the deletionist moronacy here as always foolish and anti-information. The links were useful. I routine used them to view. This article is a god damned LIST of episodes. It is quote common and USEFUL to have links like this. This is the primary reason I will never donate to this site is foolishness like this. I again find this to be an aggressive quest against knowledge to apply bureaucratic rules to suppress useful information. Wikipedia is at this point more of a political expression of activist editors than the a repo of information. The sad thing is most of the activists could NEVER, EVER get a job as an editor. mickrussom (talk) 03:02, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
        • Ultimately, the guidelines set down in Wikipedia are designed for it to be a useful resource to begin research. The page must be encyclopedic - in that sense it needs to relay information. Information about episodes are encyclopedic. The episodes themselves, are not. Besides the obvious fan-dome direction Wiki would take without these rules, it makes the articles "fragile" insomuch external links can never be considered 100% stable. While I do appreciate the useful links... and I use them... Wikipedia is not intended for that.-DevinCook (talk) 04:08, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

• This is list is a list of episodes of content available. There are countless examples of this being done elsewhere. What this is is a deletionist activist policy of bureaucratic troll destroying information to lick the boots of hyper-policy driven administrators to try and earn things like Barn-stars. This is exactly what the bureaucrats that worked for the Nazi regime were like. Please STOP DESTROYING TRUTHFUL INFORMATION HERE. The beauty of cyberspace is there is no reason to artificially limit the size and scope of things like traditional media encyclopedia. This website is becoming infested with frustration information destroyers. I was just enjoying watching AVGN episodes and returned on CHRISTMAS EVE to find some drooling psychopath pulling a Grinch and deleting useful links to funny material. mickrussom (talk) 03:14, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Please see my diatribe above. I'm not arguing against the article. Also, its refreshing to see Godwin's law make an appearance. Its been a while, at least for me! :) -DevinCook (talk) 04:11, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
    • AS a guest, I must say: STOP DELETING THOSE USEFULL LINKS. And I don't want to be offensive, but **** everyone who wants to delete those links. To hell with the deletionist policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.61.53.79 (talk) 12:22, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
• I'm responding here per the 3PO request made at WP:EAR: Wikipedia is not a collection of links. At this point, the latter two (User:Mickrussom and IP editor editing from 109.61.53.79) are soapboxing and on top of that, purposefully disrupting Wikipedia and the process to make a point by edit-warring. There are times when it is necessary to ignore all rules, and then there are times when it is necessary to use common sense when applying that policy. This is one of those times when the policy is there for a reason. This is not a link repository for persons to use as a directory listing for viewing the videos. While linking to YouTube can be a valid reference in some instances, this is not one of them. Furthermore, keep the uncivil personal attacks out of it please as it highly disdainful to accuse someone of/compare their actions to being a Nazi without basis. All that said, as a point of note in the future for User:Duffbeerforme, please word your request for Editor assistance carefully next time as it honestly looked like you were canvassing. Now then, I have restored the page to the last revision by "duffbeerforme" (Revision as of 21:46, 24 December 2010) not because it was he who posted it, but because that revision reflects Wikipedia policies as they are set forth. Continued edit-warring should be reported to the ANI. I'll also put in a temporary protection request till the dispute is resolved. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② 06:04, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

• Could someone please remove the external links from the body of this article to comply with wikipedia policies of not a collection of external links and external links should not normally be used in the body of an article and is not a directory to help find individual episodes, see above discussion (easily done by undoing this edit). duffbeerforme (talk) 17:31, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

  Sorry to be lazy but I don't have time to do this. It would help an admin considerably if you do this on the draft version that I have created at Talk:List of The Angry Video Game Nerd episodes/draft. Alternatively the links could be converted to footnotes, if they are deemed useful. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:57, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

  Done (using this version). duffbeerforme (talk) 03:07, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

   Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

• I don't know what the fans' problem with removing the ELs is. They are all there in the history, and as far as Wikipedia policies go, the history of the article stays forever. Which means that the links and fancruft stay forever, too. Example. -Shadurak —Preceding undated comment added 12:16, 29 December 2010 (UTC).
• You guys are just diminishing the usefulness and general worth of the episodes page by deleting these links. Nobody but you cares about the "PHILOSOPHY" as it applies to Angry Video Game Nerd episodes, y'all, and all you've done is made this page not worth visiting. Great work! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.103.108.236 (talk) 04:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
• Guys, we just have to accept it. If someone wants to make a page on Wikipedia less useful because Wikipedia has a policy written down, so be it. It's not like we can change the content on Wikip- oh. 60.226.67.88 (talk) 08:13, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
• Congratulations for removing the only useful purpose that this list served. 130.89.101.28 (talk) 09:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

As this consensus is still forming, and the edit war is continuing, I've protected for a week. A request for comment may be helpful here. GedUK  07:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

References

I feel that each episode needs some sort of external reference to prove it's existance. Anyone else agree? ManfromDelmonte (talk) 00:49, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. The basic requirement of verifyibility. and some of the more crufty stuff should be removed unless independent sources are provided (stuff like "The first episode where The Nerd doesn't say "fuck".", where does an independent source even come close to reporting such trivia?). duffbeerforme (talk) 14:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The Unholy Crusade

I am far beyond spent with the endless internet-arguments about external links being such a bad thing. It is not as though this page is nothing but external links; it is useful information that is enhanced by the inclusion of links to off-site content. There has been an ongoing crusade by several people, including duffbeerforme, who has also posted on the Nostalgia Critic entry to remove "EL's" there as well. This over-zealous application of the letter of the law is in contrast to the spirit of the law, which is intended to uphold quality in articles. It is sadly being utilized as a tool to REMOVE quality in this instance, and several others. Do not bother quoting/linking WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A COLLECTION OF EXTERNAL LINKS or EDIT WAR or any other such policy pages. I am aware of the policy, and I am disappointed in its application. I am making a stand here, whatever the outcome. Some mod had better come along and gold-protect this article and/or ban me for life from editing, because I am going to keep bringing the links back as long as I am capable of doing so, and I encourage others to do so as well. When words have failed, actions must speak for themselves. Facta non verba. I do not consider this vandalism, I consider it activism against an extremist application of policy. Shakzor (talk) 14:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Did you consider trying words before "they failed"? duffbeerforme (talk) 15:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I did indeed. Seems they invariably fall on deaf ears and ignorant minds here on wikipedia; gathering place for law school drop-outs. I will be back reverting the page on February 1st, when the protection expires. Shakzor (talk) 16:14, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I look above, I see no attempt by you to engage discussion. duffbeerforme (talk) 16:27, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

You will most certainly not. Not only is that a threat, but that very statement could result in a lengthy block. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 13:26 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Good. Bring on the lengthy block, as you call it. Shakzor (talk) 18:12, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Coming here, following message being posted on my talk page. Shakzor please don't continue edit warring once you're unblocked, if you do that you will only end up getting blocked for longer or even for good. If you're aware of the policy then you will be aware why it's in place and what links should and shouldn't be on pages. Nobody is saying external links are bad, they are OK, providing they don't break Wikipedia's policies. Don't take a stand against Wikipedia and it's policies, it will only get you into worse trouble. Instead, please accept the consensus on the talk page.

If this carries on, I would suggest that someone requests a comment on the article on what should and shouldn't be included.5 albert square (talk) 22:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, we do not have a consensus. Many people are unhappy with the change. I think Shakzor is exactly right - this "an extremist application of policy", and only serves to reduce the quality of the page. 150.101.178.39 (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Well from what I could read above there seemed to be consensus. I would suggest asking for the comment, like I've suggested above, or going to formal dispute resolution. I'm not an admin, I can only offer you my opinion which is what I've done as an outsider to the topic.--5 albert square (talk) 02:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe all that removing the links is just an inconvenience! I have no clue what deleting the links does for the page. Is it supposed to make Wikipedia seem more professional? Wikipedia is already enough of a joke! Wikipedia is a JOKE. Capitalistmaniac (talk) 21:44, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

This is complete horseshit. 68.17.137.16 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I suggest that someone put the external links back. Aside from being useful the argument against them is flawed. It is true that Wikipedia is not a collection of external links. So where a page is put up with that purpose only it (the page) should be deleted. That doesn't mean that external links [formerly, I wrote 'internal links' in error] within a relevant page should be removed. Many other pages do this. I think there is no consensus on this and, if looked at carefully even weighing the unregistered IP's less, the preference is to keep them. If I had the time right now I'd revert it back. I say whoever has the time and knowhow, add it back.Anber (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

When looking at wether consensus exists you need also to look at the wider comunity discussions, not just the fan reaction on this individual article. The long standing policy against external links is the result of earlier debate and any call for change of policy should be discussed elsewhere, eg Wikipedia talk:External links. Your argument for putting the external links back because internal links should not be removed is not consistent. Internal links where not removed, external links were. If other pages have innapropiate external links then please help by removing them them. Something bad elswhere does not justify something bad here. duffbeerforme (talk) 17:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

In error I wrote 'internal link' when I meant external link. The point is that while Wikipedia is not a collection of links, it is not inappropriate to have external links where they contribute to the value of the page and the page's purpose is not solely to collect links. The links should be restored and I look forward to that being done soon. Anber (talk) 09:00, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I have restored the external links in accordance with the fifth pillar of wikipedia, and to combat the rampant Wikilawyering that pervades these campaigns to remove any external links from articles. Shakzor (talk) 13:10, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

IAR is not a free pass to ignore consensus, the links are inappropriate and do not belong here, you have yet to give any valid argument for why they should remain other than the fact you are a fan and find them useful--Jac16888^Talk 15:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be under the impression that there is a consensus here. I believe if you actually trouble yourself to read the discussion, you will find that there is not. There is also no true reason for the initial removal of these links, as they are not the sole purpose of this page. IAR is not meant as an excuse to ignore consensus or declare anarchy; what it IS, is a guideline to uphold the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. I am improving this page by including external links, and it is only the heavy-handed use of the strictest definition of policy that had these links removed in the first place. Again, I submit that there is indeed no consensus on the issue, and until mediation or arbitration occurs, I will uphold the status quo. Shakzor (talk) 16:38, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

You are mistaken, there is a very clear consensus here, backed up by policy, that the links are inappropriate. The fact that there are more people saying the links should stay holds little weight when most of those people are clearly fans, and the fact that you are promising to keep edit warring does not strengthen your position--Jac16888^Talk 16:58, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

All I can say is that I disagree. I believe the policy does not back this arbitrary link removal, and your disregard for the opinions of fans simply because they are fans is quite ignorant and akin to fascism. Yes, I will keep editing this page, because every edit I make is an improvement to the page. Call it activism, or civil disobedience; but you will probably call it vandalism, and that is unfortunate. Shakzor (talk) 17:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I HIGHLY agree with Shakzor. Fans are a valued part of many Wikipedia articles. For this article, they provide much of the information. I will continue to add the links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Capitalistmaniac (talk • contribs) 17:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Then you will be blocked for disruptive editing. CTJF83 21:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

So be it. Shakzor (talk) 22:00, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I fail to see how it's disruptive at all. The page should just be deleted if links won't be allowed, there's VERY little purpose to the page in it's current state. 68.17.137.16 (talk) 01:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Round 2

They violate WP:EL, this time can we not have IPs and new user fans (I am a big fan of AVGN) use non-policy reasoning to include the links? CTJF83 08:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC) {{editprotected}}

• Could someone please remove the external links from the body of this article to comply with wikipedia policies of not a collection of external links and external links should not normally be used in the body of an article and is not a directory to help find individual episodes, see above discussion (easily done by undoing this edit). duffbeerforme (talk) 11:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

 Not done No, the point of protection is to let the consensus form here. Get the consensus one way or the other, then we can go from there. GedUK  12:33, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

To be fair, there is something of a consensus here, its just that fans of the site are refusing to accept it. The links are inappropriate and a convincing argument for why they should remain has yet to be made beyond "I like it" and "It's useful" --Jac16888^Talk 12:37, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree, but we just need to firm up that 'something of a' to a proper consensus. Then we can take it from there (semi-protection or pending changes I suspect). GedUK  12:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Many of the comments above suggest that a proper consensus is never going to happen: "I will continue to add the links", "until mediation or arbitration occurs, I will uphold the status quo", "Good. Bring on the lengthy block, as you call it.", "I will be back reverting the page on February 1st, when the protection expires", these are not comments aiming to achieve consensus--Jac16888^Talk 13:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I suspect a proper request for comment will be necessary to resolve this issue once and for all. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:45, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

There is a wider community consensus on external links. A small amount of fan reaction on this one article does not override that. Regardless of what the tag at the top of the page says, preserving the current version which violates many wikipedia policies is an endorsement. It also rewards disruptive pointy editing. duffbeerforme (talk) 14:51, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

From WP:EL "In a nutshell": "External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article." It also goes on to say that "External links should not normally be used in the body of an article." as User:Duffbeerforme pointed out in the original campaign to remove the links. My gripe is this: On this kind of page specifically, a direct link to the the subject media is relevant for each entry in the episode list; and I would call the use of these links "minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article" just as stated.

Many episodes have multiple versions released on different dates in varying places, so the links only become more important as their inclusion constitutes further relevant information for each episode. More to the point, the information on this page is incomplete without the inclusion of these links. The "related videos" section specifically becomes completely vestigial when the links are removed, as there is no way of locating all the material without the links. I would also say that it is more useful, but apparently that word holds little weight around here, which I find tragic. Should we keep a page around because it conforms to wikipedia policy, even though the information on it is nearly useless owing to those policies? Well that is what this page is without the links. I thought the point was to have useful encyclopedic information here, not to castrate any page that deviates from strict definitions of guidelines.

And here I will bring up the fifth pillar again. As much as I am certain many long-time contributors, admins included, would like to see it struck from policy, the fact remains that it is there. There is also a policy that wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, but that is exactly what it becomes when users take it upon themselves to rip apart pages in the name of policy, and that is what it becomes when anyone tries to apply the fifth pillar in practical use. The pillars are described as "The fundamental principles by which Wikipedia operates" and one of those principles states "Wikipedia does not have firm rules. Rules on Wikipedia are not fixed in stone, and the spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule. Be bold (but not reckless) in updating articles". The spirit of the rule for WP:EL is to avoid pages where a list of external links is the only focus of the page. That is not the sole or primary purpose of this page, there is much more information present than that. The links are a supplement to that information, a very relevant inclusion, and potentially a very unfortunate exclusion. WP:BURO also says "rules are not the purpose of the community. Written rules do not themselves set accepted practice. Rather, they document already existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected." I do not believe that the established consensus on external links takes this type of page in to account, but the policy has been hammer-fisted on to this page in the form of arbitrary link removal. Remember, consensus can change, and I believe it should in relation to instances such as this where the inclusion of external links constitutes valid and relevant information on the page.

I would also like to state that, in the absence of new consensus, the status quo should be upheld. This page has existed with external links since it split from the main article in May of 2008, and the links were in the main article before that. Flash forward over two and a half years later, and someone suddenly sees fit to arbitrarily remove the links, with no regard for their relevance to the article or their importance therein.

The removal of these links has attracted attention from "IPs" and "new users". I was one of the former, and still am among the latter; despite this, I have written these words in awareness of wikipedia policy, and I believe I have put forth a reasonable and compelling argument in favour of retaining the external links in this article. Shakzor (talk) 15:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

This kind of page is still still a Wikipedia article so it is equally subject to Wikipedia's content policies. I fail to see how >100 links is minimal.

When the multiple versions of episodes is written about in independent reliable sources then it becomes of interest here.

The fifth pillar is good in itself but is the most misrepresented policy here. One should also look at the earlier pillars. (such as "Wikipedia is not"..."an experiment in anarchy or democracy". "never disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point".) And follow the first link from the five pillars you will see that Wikipedia is not a directory. Your interpretaion of the spirit of WP:EL is far from the policy itself. It is not about an articles primary focus. Another quote from WP:EL you might consider is "it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic". This type of article is still just another article, it is not something special. Consensus can change. If you want to change consensus on a policy go to that policy, don't try to change it here.

In the absence of new consensus, the current policies should be upheld. They have a longer history and more discussion than what has occured here. This article is not a special case. These links were not arbitrarily removed.

I believe noone has put forth a reasonable and compelling argument in favour of retaining the external links in this article. duffbeerforme (talk) 15:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

As said above, with users like Shakzor blatantly ignoring consensus, we are going to get no where. We should just do pending changes so the can't be added. Shakzor won't be affected by semi-protect, so that does us no good. We had a consensus earlier, except for new users/IP fans who disagree. CTJF83 15:37, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Ctjf83, thanks for the comment. Please actually read my words before summarily dismissing me. Shakzor (talk) 15:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

This poor attitude points to the contrary. CTJF83 15:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

And you are demonstrating a poor attitude right now. If someone wants to block me for doing what I think is right, then I cannot stop them. Also, if a blocking is the most powerful weapon in your arsenal, then you need to re-think how you toss around threats. Fact is, I am joining the discussion now, I just wrote a lengthy response with some valid points, and I would have thought you admin-types to be mature enough to actually try reading it before rushing off to disregard me and close this argument. Shakzor (talk) 15:48, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, and no where did I claim to be one. But when your response to mention of being blocked is "so be it", what would you have us think about how positive your contributions will be. CTJF83 15:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

You certainly act like one. And as I said before, if someone wants to block me, so be it, I cannot stop them from doing so. However I will continue to do what I believe to be right, no matter what threats are directed my way. Shakzor (talk) 15:55, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

And that is exactly the bad attitude to why I said pending changes instead of semi-protect, but lets get back to the issue at hand. CTJF83 16:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of getting back to issues, I have yet to hear a response from you on either this topic, or my talk page. You have a very high degree of disregard for "IP users", and you seem unaware that this page has been built largely by "IPs". Also, users are allowed to post without registering for a reason. If you do not like it, complain to Jimbo Wales; but in the meantime, try to tone down your user elitism and actually listen to what some of us lowly boot-scrapings have to say before you tread on us again. You can start by actually reading and responding to my words. Shakzor (talk) 16:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Replying... you weren't on my watchlist. CTJF83 16:12, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Seriously WikiLawyers, what difference does it make? What harm does it do to have the links? Is it freeing up a few extra megabytes of bandwidth? Is it making the site look "unprofessional"? Nobody cares! People use Wikipedia as a source of information. They don't care if it looks professional. Now, I want some answers on how exactly ELs are murdering and raping people. Capitalistmaniac (talk) 16:15, 3 February 2011 (UT

See Shakzor, the above post does nothing to address the issue. CTJF83 16:16, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

And there will always be some of that. There is also a post that you apparently have still not read, that DOES address the issue. Shakzor (talk) 16:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh CTJF, and how does it not address the issue? Because it tells the obvious truth that you're too egotistical and elitist to realize? Capitalistmaniac (talk) 16:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, consider this a warning to you for a personal attack. CTJF83 16:23, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

• Gasp* OH NO! I GOT A WARNING! WHAT EVER WILL I DO? Go ahead ignoring the truth. Capitalistmaniac (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Star Wars Episode

{{Edit protected}} Due to the recent edit protection of the page, nobody can add the information for the new Star Wars episode. Can someone please add the information? Capitalistmaniac (talk) 16:19, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I put it in there right after it was posted. For some unexplained reason, that edit was removed before the protection was added. Shakzor (talk) 16:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Add {{Edit protected}} followed by your reason so an admin will become aware an addition is needed. CTJF83 16:22, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you CTJF, but for the answer to that, Shakzor: Somebody decided to revert the page back to when there were no links, resulting in the Star Wars section being removed. Shame, shame... Capitalistmaniac (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I am already quite aware what happened. It is an example of ham-fisted editing, collateral damage from an uninformed edit. Shakzor (talk) 16:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:55, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Request for comments

As this issue has been unresolved for some time, I ask the community: are the external links to third-party websites http://www.gametrailers.com, http://screwattack.com and http://www.youtube.com, currently used (permananent link) in the body of this article, appropriate and in line with the applicable guideline on external links? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

• [KEEP EL's] Yes, as they provide a reliable source proving the existence of the episodes, and convenience for the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Capitalistmaniac (talk • contribs) 20:02, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
• Strong Keep for EL's: The policy referred to is, in my opinion a general rule. As pointed out above, Wikipedia's rules are flexible and are meant to ensure a good quality product. While most types of pages will fit neatly into the miniority's interpretation on the EL policy this page (and this kind of page) should strongly consider permitting EL's to keep the page useful, relevant, and informative. There is no good reason to remove the EL's and it degrades the quality of the page. I am not a new user or IP and should be weighted accordingly, but new users and IPs should be given some reasonable weight. Unless the consensus changes, the status quo should be kept. Anber (talk) 05:44, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep. I have written a few paragraphs on my reasoning for this. Scroll up and look for the largest block of text on the same left-alignment. Shakzor (talk) 12:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
• The external links in the body of the article are not appropriate.

The existing wikipedia policy are the result of long term discussion so they should hold more weight than the immediate reaction of a few fans on a single article.

Wikipedia:External links states "it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic."

Wikipedia:External links states "2.External links should not normally be used in the body of an article.[1] Instead, include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end of the article, and in the appropriate location within an infobox, if applicable." The article includes an "External links" which links to the four main sites that contain the indivdual episodes. No credible policy based argument has been put forward as to why this policy should be ignored.

Wikipedia:External links states "4.In the "External links" section, try to avoid separate links to multiple pages in the same website; instead, try to find an appropriate linking page within the site." No credible policy based argument has been put forward as to why seperates links to multiple pages in the same website is valid here.

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not states "Wikipedia is not a directory". Inclusion of these links turns this article into a directory and some of the protests above demonstrate that that is what it has been used as.

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not states "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links". Incusion of these links makes Wikipedia a repository of links.

This page as it is has serious sourcing problems. All sources are from the subject. No independent reliable sources have been used. These external links compund the sourcing problem.

It has been suggested elsewhere that the external links could be turned into references. This would not be appropriate as they are not independent sources and while Wikipedia:Verifiability does allow for the use of Self-published sources as sources on themselves to convert these links would be unduly self-serving and would compound the problem of this article being based primarily on such sources.

Unless the consensus changes, the policies should be respected. duffbeerforme (talk) 15:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

• Remove per WP:EL and Duffbeerforme's reasoning. CTJF83 20:17, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Links. Although Wikipedia policy gives many arguments in favour of deleting the links those arguments ignore (i) the counter arguments, (2) the effect to the quality of *THIS* article if the links are removed, and (iii) the full context of the policies being considered. On this later point:

(1) "[External Links] should not normally (my emphasis added) be used in the body of an article". This implies (per Anber above) a general rule but not an absolute rule. This page appears to be an exception. (2) It refers to one exception being for "other meaningful, relevant content" purposes. This would seem to be such a purpose. (3) "An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work" this is a valid reason to keep the links. (4) "There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites". (5) "Longevity of links" and other technical issues (i.e. broken pages, malware, etc.) weigh in favour of these links.

Further from the "not a link repository" policy: (6) excessive lists can dwarf articles. This is not a concern here. In the present case, the use of links is done tastefully in a way that promotes usefulness of the aricle without making the article long or unsightly. (7) "Mere collections of photographs or media files with no text to go with the articles" is to be avoided but again - in the present case - is not a concern.

At the end of the day this page is not unlike others (and yes - I realize that statement, in and of itself is not a valid argument to keep the links) and the reason it is not unlike others relates to the quality of the article keeping the links. To conclude, while there are good arguments on both sides, firstly, article quality should be supreme and secondly, the arguments against the links do not amount to consensus sufficient to change the statusquo. 174.93.161.90 (talk) 01:54, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I thoroughly agree with your assessment, sir; however I fear that your status as an "IP user" will cause your opinion to be dismissed as worthless, in spite of its inherent legitimacy. Shakzor (talk) 02:45, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a sir, but thanks :) 174.93.161.90 (talk) 09:26, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.93.161.90 (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

1) Why is this page an exception? 2) That content is already linked to at the bottom of the article. 3) There is links to sites hosting a copy of the work at the bottom of the page. 4) There is a link to youtube at the bottom of the article that noone is trying to remove. 5) "Longevity of links" weighs in favour against these links as wikipedia has no control on how external sites organise themselves.

6) I've seen noone suggesting they dwarf the article apart from those building a strawman. 7) Irrelevent, why bring it up?

At the end of the day this page is not unlike others so there is no reason this page should have an exception to the policies. duffbeerforme (talk) 06:40, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Duffbeerforme: 1-Why is anything an exception to anything? People feel that way, that's why. What our esteemed colleague Mr. I.P. User, Esquire, is pointing out is that the policy is not a blanket ban. I can see nowhere that says "Do not use external links in the body of an article, ever. Always put them in a separate section below the body." All terms used in actual policy are indefinite, and the wording leaves room for flexibility. You and other deletionists use policy as though the wording were constructed from hewn granite, but this is not the case. If the links are individually and directly relevant to the subject matter of an article, why should they not be included? 2,3,4-Not all content is linked at the bottom of the article. The source sites are, yes, but the individual links represent an organization of information. There is plenty of other material on Rolfe's youtube account, and not all of it is AVGN episodes, or even AVGN related. The organization on youtube as a whole is atrocious, the links solve that problem quite handily. The other sites linked are more organized, but the episode list on one is not the same as the episode list on another, and the reason for this is the same as the reason for multiple links for some episodes, as episodes have been changed from one version to another. 5-If a link gets changed or goes dead, then it should be noted as such, and a suitable replacement link should be found in its stead. It seems that all the episode links are still functioning nicely. As for the longevity of links, they have been there long enough for my reckoning, and no one has yet to put forth an argument as to why the two-plus year history of these links being around is to be ignored. 6-The links do not dwarf the article, certainly no one has suggested this because it is not so. Mr. I.P. User, Esquire, is delineating this way in which the page conforms to established guidelines. It is not as though this page consisted of "Here's a link to an episode, and here's a link to another," and so on; it is rich in information and much more than a mere "repository of links" or a "directory". 7-Again, it is not just a collection of off-site content or a "link repository."

Here's an idea: Let's make every individual episode its own page on wikipedia, like the list of ST:TNG episodes and many other episode lists out there, and then each page can have one to three external links on the bottom of the page in an "External Links" section. Would that not be more congruous with all this external links policy? I think that might be a bit extreme, since this page is fine as it is, but if it is going to have a chunk of its content raped away by policy, then we should work within that policy and keep each group of links in its own section on a separate page. What does everyone think about that? Shakzor (talk) 14:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

1. Our esteemed IP collegue states "This page appears to be an exception." but fails to state why. 2,3,4. What is not in those links at the bottom of the page? Wikipedia is not here to fix Youtube problems. 5. How long something wrong has been here doesn't change it to right. 6. Still an irrelevant strawman. 7. had nothing to do with "link repository." so why bring it up. duffbeerforme (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• There is one key point here that many of you seem to have missed. The purpose of this page is not to tell people where to find all these individual videoes, that would be the purpose of a directory. This is not a directory, it is an encyclopedia, the article should tell people about the videos, the links do not belong in mass

I believe you mean en masse and not "in mass". And there have already been a number of arguments put forth as to the inclusion of links alone not defining this page as a directory; so all you are saying is "I disagree." Shakzor (talk) 16:30, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I fail to see what my choice of words has to do with anything. And yes I disagree, but I'm adding the fact that you clearly do not understand the purpose of this list--Jac16888^Talk 16:53, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

And you apparently base your understanding of this list on a very narrow perspective centred around which blanket definitions give you the best excuses to mutilate it. What's the difference between a vandal and a deletionist? A deletionist has to spend half an hour reading policy before destroying an article, a vandal just up and does it. Shakzor (talk) 12:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:NPA. duffbeerforme (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I fail to see how this constitutes a personal attack; the fact that you interpret it as such only means that my observation has struck a chord. Go be offended elsewhere. Shakzor (talk) 03:42, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• I'll actually flip your (Jac16888, Duffbeerforme) reasoning around a bit. Let's say you're right and we take out the links. The page remains effectively exactly the same (from the point of view of an encyclopedia article) as the page is now, only it's usefulness and quality is substantially reduced. The rules of Wikipedia policy are meant to be applied in a way which contributes to the quality of the final product. Where the policy objectives don't actually accomplish anything to improve the quality (and actually lower the quality) I suggest that they are being applied in a rigid and illogical way. If your problem is with this article being a directory, then argue for its deletion -- oh wait, that was done, twice, in recent history and that failed. It seems more like sour-grapes from the people who twice tried to delete this article and didn't get their way so now they are trying to make it less useful. Anber (talk) 19:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

It's usefullness as a directory to find individual episodes will be reduced but wikipedia is not a directory. I fail to see how the quality is substantially reduced, I personally think it will be increased. Wanting a page to not be used in the wrong way is different to wanting the page to be deleted so bringing up the previous afds is irrelevant to the question of external links in the article. I didn't twice try to get this article deleted so your strawman personal attack does not apply. duffbeerforme (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. I made my position clear on The Nostalgia Critic's page. Anber makes an excellent point, as do Shakzor and Capitalistmaniac. Shakzor's suggestion about individual episodes is probably the only solution to keep everyone happy, but I don't know if every episode could be deemed notable enough to have its own page (maybe some episodes?). As for this article, removing the links make the articles less useful, no more encylopedic and the guidelines clearly state "External links should not normally be used in the body of an article" - indicating there can - and will - be exceptions. Also, as a fellow "IP user", I would hope that my opinions are no less valid than anyone else's! 60.226.67.88 (talk) 08:44, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion to give each episode its own page is more tongue-in-cheek, but if the links end up being stripped from this article, then individual pages may be the next step. I must say, thank you for reading my words, too often it feels that people do not do so. Unfortunately for your own stance, which will already be considered dubious based on your lack of a user name, you have also used the "useful" argument, which immediately sets off alarms in the heads of all the bureaucrats and wikilawyers, who will very quickly bleat off a chorus of WP:USEFUL and use that policy as an excuse to adhere to nothing but the letter of the rule. The same people will always complain about WP:FIVE and specifically WP:IAR being overused by editors ignorant of policy, and this means to them that even valid applications of the fifth pillar, such as this one, must be universally disregarded because they can quote more policies than we can. They fail to see that this is exactly why WP:IAR exists, so that the victor need not be the editor with the longest list of policy to quote. But, we shall see where this debate goes. Shakzor (talk) 12:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Just to potentially ward off any critisms of my (and others) usefullness argument, I find it interesting that WP:USEFUL specifically says Information found in tables in particular is focused on usefulness to the reader. An argument based on usefulness can be valid if put in context. For example, "This list brings together related topics in X and is useful for navigating that subject." Hmm... tables... useful for navigating a subject... why does this sound familiar...? 60.226.67.88 (talk) 12:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. I, for one, see no issue with external links as long as they're intergrated properly and do not dwarf the article content. 203.45.175.56 (talk) 02:57, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

They are not intergrated properly, see WP:EL. duffbeerforme (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. As I've said before the vote, the links are very important to the usefulness of the article, and I cannot see it beneficial in any real way to take them out. 68.17.137.16 (talk) 23:58, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment As expected, most of these keeps are users with no or very few other edits. And most, if any, are not policy based reasons. CTJF83 12:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

What vote? duffbeerforme (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Delete I was going to avoid contributing because of so many 'keeps' but seriously people. A lot of things are 'useful'. A gme guide is useful, a telephone directory is useful, etc etc but they are not what Wikipedia is for. Sure the ELs are useful here, but they aren't necessary. As I said elsewhere, why not put them on, say, List of X-Men: Evolution episodes too, as that has official YouTube videos? Look, the article gives exactly on EL in the proper section, and what is it? It's a list of links to the episodes! How in the world is even one, much less three, ELs per episode even necessary at all with this there? (And as a side note, if you came here because someone off Wikipedia posted on a forum asking for help, it really doesn't help the cause. Such canvassing is usually ignored). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

• Weak Keep per Capitalistmaniac, Anber, Shakzor and per the various IP's all of whom have the right to post and have their opinions considered (albeit, not necessarily at the same weight as registered users). Of note, we should consider the policy considerations raised by 174.93.161.90.

At the present time, while there are reasonable arguments to delete, there is absolutely no consensus to remove *these* links on *this* particular page

People like CTJF83 need to open their eyes. Firstly, while most supporters of the links are users with no or few other edits, there are several where this is not the case. Their opinions are relevant to the conclusion that there is no consensus to remove the links. Secondly, while many arguments have not been policy based, many argument *have* been. Failure to address these policy concerns is again relevant to the conclusion that there is no consensus to remove the links. Thirdly, there has been a fairly categorical argument, phrased in *many* ways about how the quality of this article will be lowered without any significant change to the page. Put another way, just because we remove the "(GT)" which is placed next to each episode's title, doesn't mean this article is any more encyclopedic. What we do know is that it's quality and usefulness will be lowered substantially. Failing to address this in any meaningful way again is relevant to the conclusion that there simply is no consensus to remove the links.

I recognize it's a weak keep but it must be a keep. So long as this page remains undeleted, these links form a significant part of the value of this page and there is no consensus to change that. 70.54.91.203 (talk) 00:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I have yet to see a good reason why this one particular article is different to the many other wikipedia articles in such a way as to justify ignoring the many policies that the inclusion of the external links violates. duffbeerforme (talk) 09:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It is different because so many people care; I believe you wikipedia types call it "consensus". And I do not see any policies that are being ignored. There is a good amount of policy argued in favour of both sides, if you can be bothered to scroll up and actually read a few posts. Shakzor (talk) 01:30, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

"I do not see any policies that are being ignored." ? Perhaps you should scroll up and actually read a few posts. duffbeerforme (talk) 07:48, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I have read every word on this page. What I see is not ignored policy, but differing interpretation of policy. Just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are wrong. Shakzor (talk) 12:39, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Taking on extremly overly broad interpretation some of the policies may come down to opinion but I have yet to see WP:V adressed. The total lack of independent sources. The inclusion of these links compounds the problem of WP:SELFPUB, "so long as" ... "the article is not based primarily on such source" and "so long as" ... "the material is not unduly self-serving;" duffbeerforme (talk) 15:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I have yet to see proof these IPs didn't see a note on some blog to comment on this, or that it isn't all the same user. CTJF83 13:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• You also have yet to comment on the content of many of the IPs' points raised or the fact that several non IP users (i.e. me) have written in with valid points. Weak; very weak. Anber (talk) 05:23, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

So let me get this straight: An IP user posting in a discussion thread is under the obligation to prove that they have NOT come in response to a canvassing request on a forum somewhere? I, in turn, have seen absolutely no proof of any kind that there has been canvassing going on in here. Upon whom lies the onus in this instance? Show me a link to wikipedia policy explaining that. Shakzor (talk) 01:30, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:CANVASS CTJF83 19:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

As usual, you post a response that fails to address the issue; it makes me wonder if you actually read these posts. Seems to me that crying "CANVASS!" is the quickest way to discredit any IP users. Nowhere on that page does it delineate the criteria for determining when canvassing is actually taking place, and I suspect that detail is a deliberate omission, to provide elitist users such as yourself with more stock for disregarding unregistered users. Admittedly, this is a very difficult thing to prove or disprove on either side; but it seems to me that the burden of proof would be yours, to demonstrate that there has been a solicitation somewhere, lest every unregistered user be considered guilty until proven innocent. Even though there is a policy of assuming good faith, I suspect that you and others like you will automatically believe all unregistered users to be operating under some sort of clandestine directive; this would certainly validate your position if it were so, and give you your reasons to despise and mistrust all the lowly "IPs". Shakzor (talk) 22:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

You are putting words in my mouth. No where have I said IPs opinions don't count, or they are worthless. There are plenty of good IPs, and usually their first edits are to articles, not a contentious debate, so riddle me that....just what I'm seeing from my 4.5 years of Wikipedia experience. Also, your childish name calling (ie "elitist users") is only going to further discredit you, and hurt your discussion as you can't remain civil and not personally attack me and others in this debate. CTJF83 05:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I am going to quote you from a post you made on my talk page: "The only users for the links are you, IPs and other new users who don't know policy." This statement is indicative of two main things: First, your opinion that "IPs" and "new users" do not have as much say in these matters as you do. And second, that knowing policy is more important than merely having an opinion. You praise "IPs" only in order to defend yourself from accusations of bias and elitism, and yet you continue to hold no weight to their words when the time comes. Another indicator of your tragically elitist attitude is your reference to the longevity of your tenure as a registered user here, as though that meant anything. I find it interesting that you consider my observation of you being an elitist user to be "childish name calling[sic]". I consider this an instance of double-reverse argumentum-ad-hominem, where you would seek to lower my position by accusing me of performing personal attacks against you or others. I believe I have kept my comments here constructive, and I do not see any personal attacks performed on my part. Yet despite my demonstrated civility, I am still accused of lacking it. This demonstrates ignorance, inflexibility, and prejudice on the part of yourself and some others. These things are far more detrimental to a the process of a civil discussion than anything I have said. Shakzor (talk) 18:12, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

• So, how 'bout it? The protection is off, but I do not think we are anywhere close to reaching a consensus here. I have yet to see any admins giving us their take on this matter. Shakzor (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Admins don't need to comment, they carry no more weight then you, me, or the IP who made their first edit. CTJF83 19:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Then riddle me this: When does this horrid circular debate end? If I wanted to have an argument with a concrete wall, there are plenty to be found without having to come to wikipedia. Shakzor (talk) 22:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I mean, this debate has been going on for months now. I'm sure I'll be criticised for suggesting this, but since there seems to be no consensus on the change shouldn't the article just stay as it was (with the ELs)? The only other solution I can think of is a getting a request for mediation filled out. Because, really, this is just going around in circles. 60.226.67.88 (talk) 00:17, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

While there is no broad consensus this page should respect the wider community consensus that led to the creation of WP:EL, amongst others. duffbeerforme (talk) 15:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Well let's mediate, then someone else can decide. CTJF83 05:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think there's anything unusual about this request for comments which requires mediation. There are a few good reasons to delete the EL's, a few good reasons not to, and several weak but viable reasons not to delete the EL's. I think you need to concede the point that we don't have any consensus here. Anber (talk) 15:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

And if there is no consensus here this page should adhere to existing policy. duffbeerforme (talk) 15:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the lack of consensus here is regarding the application of policy, despite whatever you would like to believe. Thus, the status quo should be maintained in the absence of clear consensus. Shakzor (talk) 17:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

• I'd just add, the issue is partially about the application of policy *as a whole* but also partially about interpretation of policy as it pertains to this page; currently the interpretation that this violates policy is not accepted and is equalled in counter-argument and outnumbered in votes (albeit votes, particularly where they are numerous IPs, are not given equal weight and Wikipedia is not a democracy). Consensus is referred to in the following way: "The obligation on talk pages is to explain why an addition/change/removal improves the article". When the deletion gestapo rolled into town this article was doing fine. Twice attempts were made to delete it and those failed. The latest effort has been to change the status quo. The onus is on the deletion gestapo to explain why the removal of EL's improves the articles. As mentioned ad nauseum, there is a reasonable basis for that argument. Unfortunately, that argument has been effectively contradicted on a number of fronts. There is no agreement that the EL's on this page, in the current format violates Wikipedia policy *WHEN THAT POLICY VIEWED AS A WHOLE IN ITS PROPER PURPOSIVE CONTEXT*. And, the 2nd issue is that the quality of this article would be degraded; this argument has been left unchallenged in any material way. I CALL FOR AN END TO THIS DEBATE; the status quo should be kept Anber (talk) 07:46, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm in the process of starting a mediation case. Anber, you're rationale of, oh there's no consensus, so we'll just go with what I voted, isn't logical. CTJF83 18:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

• I think you might want to update your understanding of the word "logical" as it appears to be out of touch with reality. You've raised a simple, reasonable argument that has been shared by a few others and which has been rejected by several more. (1) You (and I use the term "you" to refer to both you and the other 2-3 people who share your position) have not addressed this 'policy reubttal' in any meaningful way; (2) you have failed to address the broader concerns about Wikipedia policy including several citations provided above which disagrees with your position and including (what I refer to as) 'the purposive approach' and the fact that all of the Wikpedia policy being read together should govern -- not just the tip of the iceberg to which you refer; and (3) you have failed to address the specific argument that the change you proposed does little (if anything) to change the encyclopedic value of this article (it removes the "(GT)" and "(YT)" discretely placed next to the release dates, but it dramatically harms the article's quality and value. There has also been (4) the criticism (which appears to have some value and which would reduce the weight to be given to your position) that this is a sour grapes response to the 2x (unsuccessful) effort recently to delete this article. The argument is valid in that if the problem is with this article as a directory then it should be deleted. Since this is not the conclusion reached by our community, the article should remain. This 'directory' argument has failed, twice. Accordingly, the EL's which form valuable links at the end of the dates of the episodes must not be viewed through that lens.

From an argument point of view, most reasonable people would conclude that your position is far less tenable than the 4 arguments to the contrary that I have listed above. You of course are entitled to disagree, and clearly you do. But on the subject if consensus has been reached, clearly the only logical conclusion at this point is that it has not been reached and - seeing as though the proposal was to remove the EL's - such proposal should not go forward. Anber (talk) 01:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

1)What 'policy reubttal' do you think has not been addressed? 2)What "citations provided above which disagrees with your position" 3) That argument has been addressed, you have just chosen to ignore it. 4) Yes that critisism has been made. By you. Reapeating it does not give it extra weight. It is still a strawman attack on the actions of those involved. As stated above I have not tried twice to get this article deleted. This argument is clearly not valid. The claim "if the problem is with this article as a directory then it should be deleted" is another strawman that has no basis in reality as that can be fixed by editing and that is another thing you have chosen to ignore. "This 'directory' argument has failed, twice." Not true. The two afds were not about the directory argument and to claim they were is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

The four "arguments to the contrary" you present are a mix of vague unsupported claims and deliberate misreprentaion of what has happened so are not tenable. You also claim "the proposal was to remove the EL's". That is also not true. This was a "Request for comments" on wether the external links to third-party websites in the body of this article are appropriate so your conclusion does not hold water. If anything following your logic, what you call the lack of consensus does not show that they are approriate therfore the quoted policy should apply. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to weigh in on the mediation case once I get it going. CTJF83 12:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

• As one of the main contributors on the side of the status quo position, I would like to point out that, at this time, you have no agreement from me for mediation. Unless there are other contributors from the status quo position, who express interest in this being mediated, it violates Wikipedia policy for mediation to take place since all sides do not agree. Anber (talk) 23:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for being admirable and actually trying to improve the project, instead of making sure you "win". On to WP:ARBITRATION we go. CTJF83 01:35, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

• It's not about 'winning'; I strongly believe that the article is at its most improved level with the EL's and that the argument to remove the EL's unimproves it. You have voiced your concerns, reasonable concerns about Wikipedia policy and they have not gone unheard. But several others have a different interpretation of Wikipedia policy for *this* article and the way *it* happens to be constructed. There is merit to that and, at the end of the day, there is no consensus. We don't need a mediator to tell us that. I have been a vocal supporter of the status quo and do not agree to mediation however if one of the other contributors on this side would like to take part, I cannot prevent them from voicing their interest. If there is 'consensus' among the supporters of the status quo for mediation then all the power to you. Anber (talk) 06:58, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

• Well since you're not open to input, I'm taking it to Arbitration, which is binding, and may end in a decision you don't like, and then you're stuck with it. On the other hand, if Mediation ends in keeping the links, I would not go any further. I will provide a link once I start the Arb case. CTJF83 13:06, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Isn't arbitration specifically not for resovling disputes in article content? Don't they only deal with editor conduct? And you have got to be kidding me about needing a consensus from all parties for mediation! Surely the whole point of mediation is to resolve a dispute when both sides are too stubborn to talk?! 60.226.67.88 (talk) 11:03, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not just editor conduct, but also editing, and yes, it is ridiculous one stubborn editor can screw up the whole process. CTJF83 12:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The repeated addition of inappropriate links is an issue of editor conduct. And I agree on the basic point of mediation. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep the links. For our reader's sake. They make this page much more useful and enjoyable, drawing more page views to it, improving traffic to Wikipedia overall. They're also unobtrusive, and if there's a group of editors already willing to maintain this page and update the links for any new episodes then that's a bonus, good for them. Removing the links doesn't necessarily mean it's conforming to any established community norms, nor does keeping the links need to be setting any kind of precedent for doing the same on other pages. WP:IAR can work both ways, we can do without the WP:EL pedantry here for the net benefit of our readers, just like we can ignore any bad reasons given that justify including them in any other page, if need be. -- œ^™ 13:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
  • "more useful and enjoyable", is a "great" reason to keep. CTJF83 18:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
    • You still choose to ignore the argument that the quality of this article is reduced by removing the links without making the article anymore encyclopedic.Anber (talk) 05:10, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Except that many people would say killing the links would make the quality go UP. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 07:06, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
        • Melodia is right, and there is a link to all the videos at the bottom of the page, that is more than sufficient. CTJF83 07:29, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
          • Um, where do people say that? All I see is people quoting policy, nothing about improving quality. Speaking of which, CTJF83, you may want to read WP:USEFUL, it specifically says Information found in tables is focused on usefulness to the reader. An argument based on usefulness can be valid if put in context. For example, "This list brings together related topics in X and is useful for navigating that subject." This article sure looks like a list to me. But then again, I am an unwashed heathen who hasn't registered, so my opinion doesn't matter... 60.226.67.88 (talk) 08:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
            • OE said it was useful, not me. There is already a link at the bottom which links to all the videos on an outside page. That

is sufficient enough. CTJF83 22:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

• Outside options? Is there a webpage somewhere that already lists all these links? It would be preferable to link to a 'www.fansite.com/WatchAllTheVideos.html' than to link directly to all these videos ourselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:32, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
  • In fact, [1] is linked on the page. Which lists all of them. Therefore every individual listed one is very unnecessary. CTJF83 20:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
• Remove the links. Wikipedia is not a directory of links. If another webpage exists with all of these links, it may be an excellent candidate for addition to the External links section. But this encyclopedia article should not fill that role. This is pretty well-established policy with widespread and long-standing consensus so those arguing against it should take it up here first instead of this one article. ElKevbo (talk) 19:51, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
• Get a life people. I love AVGN, I use this page and I love participating in Wikipedia. I have no interest in having any contrbutions, WRT *this* subject, associated with my actual account and I have this to say: all this debate over such a trivial point. I've seen much more important policy and content debates over much more important subjects - and I've seen them resolved much more quickly. How many times are you going to go in circles over the effing Angry Video Game Nerd? Aren't there more important topics. Many of you raised an annoying but valid point about why the links should be deleted. I say valid because its rooted in policy and I say annoying because you guys are those wikipedia mafia types who like to just assassinate articles on such nonsense points. Then on the other hand we have several users and numerous IP users who raise equally valid point. The technical vs the overall quality argument. There have been some attempts to address each sides' arguments by proponents and opponents of the links; some of these attempts were successful - both ways - and some were not. Isn't it clear that this isn't going to be resolved and whatever side made the first change to the article that immediately preceded this s***storm should concede there is no consensus. FFS! 174.95.108.172 (talk) 19:23, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
• Consensus. I believe we have a consensus here. Just look at it. On the side for external links, we have several users such as me, Shakzor, Anber, and several IP addresses. On the side against ELs, we have duffbeerforme, CFG, and a few other users with few contributions to Wikipedia. In addition, I hate to bring this point up, but the ELs have been here for years. Why should they be removed now? Capitalistmaniac (talk) 19:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

That's a very poor summary of this discussion. There is no consensus here.

Typically, a discussion that can not reach consensus is resolved in favor of the status quo. In this instance, the status quo - established by project-wide policies such as WP:NOTDIR and WP:EL that have widespread consensus among many more editors than those who participated in this discussion - is an article without a proliferation of external links. ElKevbo (talk) 19:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• You write "Typically, a discussion that can not reach consensus is resolved in favor of the status quo. In this instance, the status quo... is an article without a proliferation of external links" Uh, nice try. The status quo is the version with the EL`s.Anber (talk) 23:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• We go on consensus not in number of votes. CTJF83 00:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• I think your recent comment above is misdirected. I wasn't addressing the consensus issue. This particular writer ElKevbo agrees there is no consensus, I was addressing his response to what that means. He agrees it means that status quo should remain. I therefore addressed his meaning of status quo which is not an accurate definition of status quo. But since you decided to address the consensus issue, I should go on record as saying that my view that there is no consensus is not based on the number of votes which is balanced; my view is that the arguments are meaningful on both sides and unresolved. I personally feel that the argument against the EL's is lacking in persuasiveness but it is reasonable and not so defunct as to allow the consensus to be resolved in favour of the EL's. Anber (talk) 00:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• What problem do you have with this link, which links to every episode on the bottom, instead of 1-3 links for every video on Wikipedia. CTJF83 00:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• That's not the issue. The issue is that the article as it exists under the status quo with the "(YT)" next to the various release dates is not inappropriate; yes there is a valid argument against this position but it is not the consensus position. Aside from the point that it is not inappropriate is the second main point that it enhances the article's quality, usefulness and value. Having not reached consensus to change the status quo, alternative solutions are not ripe for consideration at the moment. Anber (talk) 00:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• You didn't answer my question. And I've said dozens of times, it violates WP:EL. CTJF83 00:25, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• (1) I don't need to answer your question; it's your (position's) onus to gain consensus that the status quo ought to be changed. (2) Your position is that it violates WP:EL but I disagree for the reasons stated several times throughout this discussion. Others disagree as well. You can keep repeating that it violates WP:EL, but it won`t make your argument any more valid. Anber (talk) 00:48, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think the ELs /decrease/ the quality of the article. All the little EL icons make it quite ugly looking. Combined with the fact that they aren't overly useful when a link that does the same thing can replace them, it stands to reason that, one doesn't need to apply IAR here and go against the EL guideline. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:14, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Point well taken, but it's a point made already and it's a point with which many people don't agree. We're going in circles here which is my point about consensus.Anber (talk) 02:51, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Another point that I must make is that an ADMINISTRATOR has come out in favor of the ELs. This administrator is User:OlEnglish. I think that is enough of a point. Capitalistmaniac (talk) 19:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• Which is completely irrelevant. I'm an administrator too, doesn't give my arguments any extra strength--Jac16888^Talk 19:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• That's not what I've seen in winning debates... Capitalistmaniac (talk) 19:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• Ya, being an admin gives the user no more weight then any other user or IP, period! I also agree your analysis of the results of the discussion is very poor. CTJF83 21:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

External links

It's not suppodes to have e la lot of external links according to wp:external links. Egon Eagle (talk) 19:20, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Ya, we are working on that, but we got several users who insist on them. Read the several post sections above this. CTJF83 21:56, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Good luck. I'm not going to continue this endless discussion with editors who can't understand (a) settled policy and (b) the difference between an encyclopedia article and a web directory. I'm removing this article from my watchlist because this isn't worth my time. ElKevbo (talk) 04:23, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion

To all, as a way to find a compromise, I am asking for comments on the following.

• From those who oppose the EL's, I'd like to know if you consider this an improvement even if only slight. Yes I recognize that some who oppose the EL's will still find this unacceptable but I note that other opponents of the EL's i.e. Melodia pointed out that the "(YT)" is unappealing to the eye and decreases the quality of the page.
• From those who support the EL's, I'd like to know if this would be acceptable to you.

Currently, the episodes appear as:

Episode	Episode name	Length	Date	Games reviewed and episode notes
1	Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest	09:25	April 8, 2006 (YT)	Castlevania II: Simon's Quest (NES). First review of a NES game, as well as his first review of a cartridge-based game, and his first review of a licensed game for NES. Also his first review ever. The only review in Nerd history where we don't see the Nerd's true form. This episode was originally created on May 16, 2004 and previously only available as a part of a film compilation tape with other short films created or directed by James Rolfe. The Nerd re-visited this game five years later in Castlevania, Part II, giving an honest opinion.

I am suggesting that we change it to look like this:

Episode	Episode name	Length	Date	Games reviewed and episode notes
1	Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest	09:25	April 8, 2006	Castlevania II: Simon's Quest (NES). First review of a NES game, as well as his first review of a cartridge-based game, and his first review of a licensed game for NES. Also his first review ever. The only review in Nerd history where we don't see the Nerd's true form. This episode was originally created on May 16, 2004 and previously only available as a part of a film compilation tape with other short films created or directed by James Rolfe. The Nerd re-visited this game five years later in Castlevania, Part II, giving an honest opinion.

Just a suggestion. If it can bring us closer to consensus, even by a tiny bit, I think this can't be a bad thing. Anber (talk) 22:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

It's slightly better, I just want an answer of what is wrong with one link at the bottom linking to all the videos. No one has responded to why that is unacceptable. CTJF83 22:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for the reply. As to your question: One, it's less good (and in my opinion a lower quality and less useful article), and two, the status quo doesn't need to be changed (as I previously answered).Anber (talk) 23:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Ctjf83, as I have already said before: Arbitrarily removing all external links from the body of the article will remove information, specifically the differing versions and their release dates and where each version is available. Also, the Related Videos section becomes functionally worthless without links to the material. Anber, I like your idea fundamentally, but I do not think many deletionists will consider this to be any sort of compromise, as it still includes the external links. Shakzor (talk) 03:03, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• Shak, I actually think this is one very valid point you've made in response to Ctjf83's question, keeping the links allows to preserve that kind of information. If the EL's were removed but the information kept, it would look fundamentally either like the status quo or like my suggestion...without of course the usefulness and functionality.Anber (talk) 03:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

You're right that this is not acceptable to some of us but please don't label those who oppose this unnecessary material "deletionists." ElKevbo (talk) 04:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm really tired of hearing status quo this and status quo that. None of your reasoning to keep the links is policy based, just your own opinion. CTJF83 04:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

There have been several references to reasonable and well understood rules and policies that favor keeping the external links. The sole purpose of any media regardless of formal or written policy is to inform with maximum ease and simplicity as much information as possible. If there were no physical limits in printing or text, an article would never end, this idea is only currently limited by people and policies needlessly treading on other people's work by argument of misunderstood formal suggestions. For example, if a phone book were able to list every single address and phone number of a person or business without being limited by size or print, it would certainly do so. Including the external links, in this specific case, allow the mentioned material in the article to be found and viewed, either for pleasure, knowledge, or simple curiosity very easily. Whichever of those reasons one may use to utilize the external links in this article are connecting data, sharing media, and spreading information that otherwise may have not been easily accessible. The act of putting the video's addresses in a click-able link is simply utilizing appropriate technology to further simplify the process of discovery (Why type a full URL instead of just using a link? Especially if you are using a computer which can take that address and turn it into video almost immediately?) For these reasons among repeated agreement from the community (as easily seen at the very top of this web page,) deleting these links serves no good purpose whatsoever.Exs10s (talk) 06:52, 25 February 2011 (UTC)