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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 64.53.220.164 (talk) at 06:08, 10 May 2012 (→‎POV Snobbery?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

For Consideration

It might be appropriate to link directly to the Oregon State University paper than a secondary write-up, in place of ref #24. http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2011/jun/mechanism-discovered-health-benefit-green-tea-new-approach-autoimmune-disease

POV Snobbery?

Both in the caption of the photo and within this discussion, gunpowder tea has been referred to as being low-grade (particularly Twinings). Is this an objective measure, or simply a matter of subjective and arguable taste?

No... its just bitter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.211.38 (talk) 07:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would call it astringent, and it can be curbed with lower temperatures and or steep times. However, Gunpowder is usually a cheaply priced tea. I don't know how tea is graded though. Tea culture, particularly in the West is full of "snobbery." Taste is always subjective. DaBOB (talk) 20:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's important to keep this page as objective as possible. Without citing a reliable source, I think it is inappropriate to talk about something being high-grade or low-grade. These words can sometimes have objective meaning (as when referring to grading based on the size of tea leaves) but they can also be WP:Weasel Words. Many tea companies have a financial interest in maintaining the culture of tea snobbery, and thus, I think no tea company qualifies as a reliable source for this purpose. Cazort (talk) 19:45, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is easy to cite export price range of most tea varieties if this is counted as a point of objective description of whether a variety is high grade or low grade. However, I think this would be destructive to the tea trade. In terms of pricing, gunpowder, at least those accessible in the West, are almost entirely number graded products that are not even in the grade levels of 1 to 10. Most certainly one can argue that they taste as great as any so called high grade tea, if such comment can be of any objectivity at all. Even rare quality gunpowder productions are never as high price as normal grade teas of traditional origin, because the "gun-powder" as a green tea form has a bad reputation of being an export only product.

In terms of production quality, all export grade gunpowder products are very cheaply made to cater for the low price demand by importers in Middle East and the West, some of whom always threat to import from some other third world countries where they can squeeze even much lower price. Producers who can produce products that can fetch better price do not produce this tea. As a result, the production of gunpowder remains in regions which are conditionally restrained to low grade tea.

Therefore, I advise letting the comment of gunpowder being a low grade tea remain. Bill Ukers (talk) 10:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When to avoid green tea

Suggest this topic be limited only to actual RESEARCH done on the subject -- just as the green tea health benefits described seem to be limited to Western research. The only research I have seen related to avoiding green tea is during pregnancy, not the other conditions previously noted.

Japanese Characters

It is unneccesary to include the Chinese/Japanese characters for words in the English language version of this topic. Providing them adds nothing of value to the article. --will381796

I think conterary, there is no reason to remove and I am asking for a revert. If someone wants to search google.com using a googles translator the characters are important in finding the tea. Hence I am reverting because the article has been needlessly. Due to the range of names given to tea the chinese characters can be important in more ways than one. --Iateasquirrel 21:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted the article but preserved the changes that were not removal of Chinese characters. --Iateasquirrel 21:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You should note, however, that most English-speaking users don't have the font installed on their computer (or read Chinese/Japanese), making the characters appear as nothing more than annoying question marks. Perhaps some kind of note to readers that if they want to see the characters, they must have the Japanese font installed on their computer? I still fail to see how having the Japanese characters can provide any useful information to an English speaker, considering that this is the English version of the article. English-language encyclopedias do not provide foreign language characters for names that exist in their language. --will381796 17:03 03 October 2005 (CST)

Modern operating systems do have East Asian fonts installed by default. Japanese and Chinese names rendered in roman letters alone are usually not understandable, you need the characters to be able to understand the meaning. Anyway, the Manual of Style for both Japanese and Chinese says to include the characters for Japanese/Chinese concepts.
I will, however, note that the characters are unnecessary here if they can be found in a more specific article. Jpatokal 11:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Jpatokal, I merely reverted the article because the removal of content was without any discussion; The space taken up in the article is generally (not technically) visually un-noticable and most computers have Asian fonts installed (I am using Mozilla on FreeBSD and it works without any extra configuration; it certainly works on IE) however such browsers as Links in graphical X11 mode fail to render the characters. Its really a matter of a balanced choice? What is more suitable to an article. --Iateasquirrel 22:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In general, as a matter of English Wikipedia-wide policy, English language Wikipedia articles should not include Chinese characters, Japanese, etc. unless these can be shown to be relevant. For my part, I've removed Japanese characters from articles like Japanese language where they clearly weren't relevant and had just been added by someone wanting to show off his "kanji powers". In an article on green tea, Chinese characters and Japanese characters need extremely heavy justification which I don't see. Whether they can be displayed or not is totally irrelevant; most English speaking users can't read them anyway, and they often represent a kind of meddling, silly mentality of the same sort that goes around adding pointless, silly links to dates like [[1955]] even when the link goes nowhere relevant to the article; again note that this is contrary to the Wikipedia convention. In short I agree with the user who removed the Chinese and Japanese. --DannyWilde 23:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Is it Wikipedia rules or merely a type of polite-ness that a discussion takes place before any types of edits? I was under the impression that if we see something that should be changed, we should change it as long as it is a good edit that does not harm the article. I shouldn't have to start a discussion regarding removal of the Japanese or Chinese characters as long as the reasons behind its removal are stated, which I did. There seems to be some agreement that the foreign characters have no place in an English-language article. In regards to your comment about the fonts, I use both Firefox and Internet Explorer and neither of these browsers have the characters on default, and I have the most up to date version of Windows XP. So obviously, unless you go into your settings have have the fonts installed, they will not be present. I will remove the foreign characters again. will381796 16:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, this argument has been over for a long time. But East Asian Fonts (Japanese and Chinese characters) are isntalled by default. You usually have to unselect a check box in Windows XP to not see them. Also installed by default in Vista. I am definitely a fan of the chinese characters for topics that relate to China, but that is probably because I study Chinese and my free time and it is a quick way to find out such things as geographic names, official name of china, etc. Tony, 20 September 2009.
Though I shall not argue since it is probably correct. Did you check that the character were listed on each of the tea pages before you deleted them? It is however very important that you dont give people the impression to go around and delete the Chinese characters from individual tea pages where there is heavy justification. The clear message should be that no more characters are removed in individual tea pages. --Iateasquirrel 17:38, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Also just to note that I just checked and its not yet correct to remove the characters on Oolong page (because they are not fully incorporated into articles, yet) and Black tea (because there is nothing major there anyway).

I am highly critical of what DannyWilde is saying in that they are pointless and I hope that he agrees that Chinese characters are very useful on in-depth tea pages as they often allow a user not knowing Chinese to search using a translator (such as Google Translate) for tea pages in Chinese and with the more obscure varities this is often very relevant. --Iateasquirrel 17:49, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese characters might be useful here for the names of the teas, for regions of China or Japan, specifically Japanese or Chinese varieties of tea, etc. But the top of the page should not say "green tea 緑茶" any more than the page on milk should say "milk 牛乳". In all cases, use common sense to decide what is necessary for a general English speaking audience, with the premise that we are writing an encyclopedia article. --DannyWilde 00:40, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For an individual tea page, I still don't think that the characters should be included. The english pronunciation of the chinese/japanese word...sure. But once again, what does having the symbol in the english language version add? Nothing. But I won't take action on the more specific pages. will381796 01:09, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You still fail to understand that they must be included, for the purposes of identification and web searching. Your word action is very appropriate; you certainly wont take action. I fail to see what this is doing, you should be adding content to the tea pages. No offense required but scholarly argument over a topic you clearly dont understand is as pointless as it sounds. As neither of you, again no offense meant, has written/contributed to an article on a specific tea you may not know how hard it is to find credible information and how characters help.
Please dont apply your personal opinions onto topics you dont understand. --Iateasquirrel 14:37, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, there is no requirement in Wikipedia that entries must be made so that they can be searched for using Japanese or Chinese on the WWW. English Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia in English. --DannyWilde 15:38, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to argue with a pure and impossibly irrelevant comment that the Wikipedia requires etc. Articles are supposed to explain the topic and you clearly have very little idea of what topic it is. Since quality tea comes from China (or Japan is some cases) it is important to be able to identify rarer teas using some common set language.
Basically you should only make removals from articles when you know exactly what you are writing about and have some clear idea of what you are doing. Hence we have come to the conclusion that on all releveant pages where the Chinese characters for the name of the tea are availible they will be listed in the Tea Infobox as required. There is no Infobox for Japanese tea though you could easily extend the existing one. We shall end it there.
This discussion can further be continued here [1] on the talk page. --Iateasquirrel 16:07, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I agree that in this case Chinese/Japanese characters are extremely important. If you want to be able to pronounce the names (for example, say you're in China looking for a certain kind of tea), look them up online, etc. I think we should list the characters for each type of tea in addition to the main article heading. --rwclark 21:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

rwclark, couldn't someone make that same argument about looking for, say, a public restroom? Should a wiki article in English on public restrooms include Asian translations? Why not Russian translations? Why not ALL translations, then? You can make this case about anything. "Tea" is in and of iteself not more important to translate than anything else. In fact, things like "restroom" or for that matter "heart attack" and "stroke" and "choking" are a lot more important. 216.135.213.106 (talk) 19:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sure wikipedia doesn't require the characters to be there, but it doesn't require them not to be there. I think a good enough case has been made for their use, but I can't see why it matters enough to the opposition to remove them. Why is it such a big deal? 202.81.18.30 21:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a Wikipedia expert, in fact, I am new to this, but I live in Asia, and the Chinese/Japanese characters are extremely important when trying to communicate in these languages. There are sometimes as many as 25 different Chinese characters for the same 'word sound'. These characters, as others have said, allow someone with a translator to get specific information about the different types of green tea. I still don't understand who is "in charge" of allowing/disallowing edits, though. Keep up the good work. It benefits everyone. Barondugger 10:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Chinese characters are also important because the 'english character' names are transliterations and are pronounced and hence written in many different ways in different chinese dialects. Thus only the character is unique and original. Otherwise, who decides whether to use the Mandarn, Cantonese, local variant etc? I would prefer to see Chinese characters for all the chinese teas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.209.98.158 (talk) 14:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of English speakers have no use for non-western alphabets. This is the English Wikipedia. There are many other Wikipediae in many other languages, including one in Japansese, where these characters are appropriate. As a reference work in English, no other language is appropriate in this Wikipedia, except perhaps in an article about said language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.246.17 (talk) 12:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When buying green tea from Asian markets the packaging often contains little or no English, so the Japanese/Chinese characters can be very useful to us westerners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josephbharrison (talk • contribs) 15:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lost Matcha

Its mentioned in the article, why mention it here? It would make the page too long? My view. --Iateasquirrel 22:24, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

There has been vandalism again by 161.51.91.43 (contribs) adding links to the anywhere, everywhere and just annoying to any page he can find. This is pure vandalism because it is spammin of external links and reference on a big scale. I am not going to revert this page because I have done so many times on the other vandalised pages, some had links to admin sections of the site and others to products that they dont have pictures for and dont list, its seems like very targeted vandalism. The user also uses this IP. Please help?! --Iateasquirrel 20:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think that in the name of being fair the current link list should be pruned too. Some of the sites seem very commercially oriented. On the other hand, for example Greentealovers.com seems to go much beyond the similar Wikipedia article, though I don't know if the site has correct information. Aapo Laitinen 16:19, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
Some sites that sell tea do have good articles on tea I sometimes cite when I write something, but you have to be sure of their sources; this Golden Teahouse linking was just on a grand scale, basically adding it to every tea related page, even some chemistry and geography pages. There is a difference. --Iateasquirrel 18:21, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese green teas

There was some text in the chinese green teas section which was not displaying due to it being enclosed in markup brackets. I have pulled it out of there and deposited it here. First there was an encouragement to add more varieties:

<!-- add more! [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] 14:41, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC) -->

Then there was an entry on pearl tea which one person seems to have added and then someone else seems to have diasgreed with. Instead of following the normal editing practice this person appears to have 'disappeared' the text by enclosing it all in markup brackets:

<!-- * ''[[Pearl tea]]'' (not to be confused with [[pearl milk tea]]) consists of tea leaves rolled into balls. The term [[gunpowder tea]] is used in English for higher grades of pearl tea. link somewhe else? leaves rolled into balls != gunpowder; there are fine teas like TAI MU LONG ZHU which are pearl tea but no way gunpowder. gunpowder is arguably used even for low quality ZHU CHA -->

So now the text is visible here and removed from the article page where it was cluttering up the edit markup without actually displaying in the article. Oska 10:18, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

BTW this disappearing text by commenting it out in the markup is a really silly thing to do on wikipedia. While it is a standard practice with programming code it does not work on wikipedia where people read the rendered text and not the raw markup code. Wikipedia aims to make edits as transparent as possible. Disagreement with text should be put on the talk page and not in embedded markup "comments". Oska 10:26, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Japanese green teas

I've heard about varieties called kokeicha (made from matcha?) and tamaryokucha (sencha with extra processing?), but found no mention of them in Wikipedia. Could these be mentioned on this page, or if they are too much of a specialty, somewhere else in Wikipedia? Aapo Laitinen 13:26, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Green tea soda?

Recently, many US soda alternatives (many of which are touted as organic) are based in green tea (such as Steaz sodas, Zota sodas, Cricket Cola) - does anybody know more about this? Why is this done? Who did it first? (Steaz claims to be the "original green tea soda," but as all of these soda producers are largely local endeavors, it may be hard to determine).

"True" tea?

Why is it a "true" tea? Since it's said in the first sentence, it got me wondering. I'm presuming because it's not a Herbal tea, that it's in fact made from the tea plant, so why not say something a bit more explicit in that direction? Shermozle 09:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK for you to edit that way if you like, you don't need to come to talk to discuss it. --DannyWilde 14:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes clearly adding information should not be discussed. Be bold is what it says, doesnt it? I am presuming this is the continuation of the Herbal Tea debate from Talk:Tea. --Iateasquirrel 17:49, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Concerned that the references are being arranged in a haphazard fashion and some people clearly trying to promote their rather commercially orineted so called references. Are there any general rules that can be applied here? For the moment I've put them in age order as it seems to be reasonable here. --Iateasquirrel 22:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

黑茶 (hēi chá) vs. 红茶 (hóng chá)

The article said that Pu'erh tea is "黑茶 (hēi chá)", but I've never heard that term before. Perhaps the writer is thinking of what is in English called black tea, but in Chinese that's actually called 红茶 (hóng chá) - literally red tea. I removed the information about 黑茶 (hēi chá). If I'm wrong, feel free to put it back in. --LakeHMM 01:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


You are correct that what Westerners refer to as black tea translates to red tea 红茶 (hóng chá) in Chinese. As you may know from reading the Pu Er article, this kind of tea has two primary varieties, sheng (uncooked/raw) and shou (cooked). As a shorthand some people refer to uncooked pu er as green, medium cooked as red, and fully cooked as black pu er. It could be that the original author was using that short hand, though I think it's more likely that it was a mis-translation. Anyhow, Pu Er shouldn't be referred to as either hei cha or hong cha, since usage of hei cha requires a lot of context to make sense, and hong cha refers to a completely different kind of tea (non-fermented, oxidized teas). When referring to cooked Pu Er (the darker variety), it should simply be called shou pu er. That said, the current version of the article doesn't seem to reference pu er at all, so I guess it's a moot point now. Thoward37 (talk) 05:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Appropriate Citations

GraemeL and I have been having an issue regarding the removal of a citation.

Back in the earlier days of Wikipedia, Greentealovers provided background information on Green tea and in particular Japanese green tea for wikipedia. In fact, most of the Japanese Green tea information has come word for word from the greentealovers site (I did the formatting of this section as well). Greentealovers referenced the page on its site where the information came from in the reference section of the appropriate wikipedia pages. At some point a new policy regarding what citations were appropriate was introduced and the greentealovers.com citation was dropped, but all its copyrighted information remained on Wikipedia. Interstingly enougth this only happened in the green tea section. In other sections where it had contributed both the data and citations remained.

When I (greentealovers webmaster) revisited the green tea wikipedia page to readd the citation I was told that my site no longer qualified as a reference -- although my green tea data still existed on the Wikipedia green tea page without its validity ever having been questioned by the good readers of wikipedia. I have no problem with relevant information greentealovers provided to Wikipedia remaining on it - but I also want an appropriate citation accompanying it. In fact both the data and the citation existed on the wikipedia green tea page for months without any issue.

I have been told that because greentealovers is MY site and because it sells products as well as providing a significnat amount of information on green tea - that it is innapropriate any longer for it to have a reference on the green tea page. My counterargument is that on the same GREEN TEA page -- Whole Foods -- A huge retail marketer, is cited as a resource for providing information on the Health Benefits of Green tea - What I don't understand is how a major vendor's general information about tea (not even green tea) can be cited - while greentealovers cannot, even though it specializes in the providing information on the subject, in fact contributed information directly to the wikipedia green tea page and had both its data and citation on the green tea page unquestioned for months. On the Tea Ceremony page as well -- the Reference for Tea Muse -- also sells items along with the information it provides

GraemeL and I have decided to put the question to you readers of this discussion page and abide by your decision. Should Greentealovers be allowed a reference on the green tea page to cite the information it has provided on that page?

P.S. GraemeL and I have both agreed to maintain both the citation and the data on the page until you have weighed in with comments.

Webmaster Greentealovers

I don't think your site — however well intentioned it may be — qualifies under the guidleines as a reliable source. It would not be appropriate to link to it. The fact that there are (probably hundreds or thousands of) other inappropriate links on Wikipedia is not an excuse. If you would like to help remove some of those links, feel free. It would be appreciated. I've deleted dozens of them this week alone and I'm worn out. —Veyklevar 00:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I don't think they are appropriate to tea. --Iateasquirrel 21:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greentealovers is relatively new to the world of green tea and nearly all of the information provided by them has been obtained from other, longer established websites. No commercial sources of green tea should have citations to them, period.

Then I will remove all the items I put up on Wikipedia related to Green tea that originated from my page. Webmaster - Greentealovers

Western Medical Establishment?

"Objectively speaking, skepticism of green tea's medical benefits would not be the first time an ancient medical remedy practiced successfully in Asia was initially called into question by the Western Medical Establishment. The FDA cannot be characterized as an infallable resource either [4]."

This seems rather poorly-written and clearly opinionated...

-> You have to admit though that the article has an aura of being anti- green tea overall. Some of the many studies showing its benefits need to be cited, and maybe something about how the backward days of the FDA summarily dimissing the benefits of foods like this as hocus pocus are well over now.

I wouldn't trust the FDA...In my opinion they are nothing but a "bouncer" for the many corrupt and misleading drug companies in the USA. Take Renne Russo (famous Hollywood director) for example, in the US he was told he was a goner when diagnosed with cancer and that nothing could be done for him apart from drugging himself up to the eyeballs and lying down and waiting to die. So he looked outside the US and instead got a 2nd opinion in Germany, and long story short, received some cutting edge treatment and is now healthier than ever. Of course the FDA would have been 100% behind Russo's US doctors and the drug companies waiting in the wings..

Green tea and cardiovascular disease prevention

See http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10062-green-tea-makes-for-healthier-hearts.html for details.

Schizmatic 12:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only recently more widespread in the West?

Japanese sources I've read suggest that tea originally exported from China were mainly green with some oolong, and black tea was not commonly exported until the 18th century. I don't have authoritative sources on hand for that, but is there an authoritative source that suggests black tea was commonly consumed in the West from the beginning (e.g. 16th century)? Zogmeister 05:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lost caffeine

In the excitement of deleting a section [2] the only reference to caffeine being present in green tea was also obliterated.

No matter the opinion on instructions on Wikipedia, the act deletionism reduced useful contents. Please try to make some editing rather than mass indiscriminate wipeouts. --17:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Smoking

this will seem odd to most people but green tea can be smoked in [jonits] and does have some efficts because it containes [LSA] mild from of [LSD] and [THC] recently this has be discoved and has formed a kind of tea under ground but little is know about the health efficts as of now, should this article have something on that.


Yes, it may seem silly, but this is true. I've tried it, and it works. Nestea seems to work the best. It may in fact contain LSA, but this is not proven. --Santa Dog 72 01:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...Yeah that tops my list as the most random thing I've seen on here...--Metalhead94 (talk) 00:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that makes no sense scientificly. Frankly, it's nonsense. LSD, similar to LSA, is destroyed upon combustion, therefore making it impossible to smoke. LSA has a similar chemical profile. Also, there is no literature that indicates the presence of THC in tea leaves.--Metalhead94 (talk) 03:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction

I flagged a contradiction on this:

"Traditionally, unlike darker teas, green teas are usually brewed using water that is at the boiling point (about 80°-90°C), as water that is too hot is believed to turn the tea bitter."

"At the boiling point" is 100 deg C, not 80-90 deg C, which is considerably below the boiling point at or near sea level. So this statement is confusing. I came here looking for tea info so I don't feel qualified to make a correction on this subject. -Timvasquez 04:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eliminated contradiction ... good spot :) Abtract 09:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Liver Problems?

To keep a long story short, my great-aunt was told quite firmly by her doctor not to drink green tea because there was a patient at the hospital waiting for a liver transplant because of liver problems attributed to drinking green tea.

Are there any studies or evidence to suggest that green tea negatively affects your liver? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.89.253.231 (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I don't know of a study that shows it causes damage, and I expect it wouldn't since it's been found that soaking livers in green tea extract before implanting them increases success rates. It's not unequivocal and it's a different situation, but if soaking a liver in green tea extract is OK, I'd hazard that drinking it would be fine.

I am not aware that drinking green tea causes liver damage, but there have been case reports for those consuming green tea extracts. [[3]]

It is not proven that green tea extract causes liver problems, as the supplement contains other stuff. But taking lots of green tea extract is definitely toxic (see same link).

The most serious side effects of drinking green tea that I am aware of comes from its fluoride content, which has caused skeletal fluorosis in one individual. You can read it here [[4]]

If anyone knows of any serious side effects of green tea it may be good to mention it here.

Juliantai 14:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The polyphenols found in green tea can cause liver toxicity in large doses. Lambert et al 2007 Possible Controversy over Dietary Polyphenols: Benefits vs Risks, Chem Res Toxicol. It doesn't look like any of the above editors consulted any journals apart from "amazing green tea.com" before making their claims... 160.62.4.10 (talk) 13:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Health Benefits changes

I just did some major edits to the health section and wanted to summarize my changes so they could be discussed, if necessary.

Judging by the wording of the article there's a deal of contention over the claimed health benefits of green tea and what, if any, scientific evidence supports them. It seems logical to subdivide the category into Unsubstantiated Claims and Scientific Evidence to allow controversial benefits to be listed, but seperate from those which have been studied. I also seperated history and added a section on the FDA. I cleaned up the references to point to more authoratative sources with the exception of the unsubstantiated section. I moved any supported claims to the SciEv section and moved unsupported claims and those supported by minimal evidence and/or poor references to the unsubstantiated claims section. If you think any of these have been substantiated and would like to provide academic citations for them, feel free to move them after you've added the citations. I combined some claims that cited the same article, restated and re-linked some to reference the journals, and added a bunch of links.

Good work but most of this should be on the main article Potential effects of tea on health with a simple summary here. Abtract 15:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"unsubstantiated"

More recent studies have been published about weight less and tea: see http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/11/2848 and http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/81/1/122?SEARCHID=1134586148539_9107&hits=10&gca=ajcn;81/1/122&FIRSTINDEX=0&TITLEABSTRACT=green+tea&RESULTFORMAT=1& , both of which seem to substantiate claims of weight loss more concretely 70.71.186.133 (talk) 04:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The weight lost might also been due to replacing a high caloric drink such as coffee with a lower caloric drink such as green tea." Coffee has zero calories so it's pretty incredible to call it high-caloric.

Coffee does not have "zero calories". Not even black coffee. http://kroger.staywellsolutionsonline.com/RelatedItems/1,4000 When you add milk and sugar, as many people do (or even cream), that makes it into something that can certainly be considered high-caloric 160.62.4.10 (talk) 13:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


several of the claims in this section are in fact substantiated (appropriately or not) in the previous section on health effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.228.109 (talk) 15:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Major concern" in the unproven claims?

From article:

"The major concern with drinking too much green tea is the high amount of caffeine it contains."

This makes it sound like green tea contain excessive amounts of caffeine, which is pretty far from the truth. As far as I know, green tea use to contain not even quarter the amount of a cup of strong coffee. Black tea is stronger than green, and coffee is often stronger than black tea. What's the "major concern" with drinking too much here? I suspect you'd get a full stomach from it before getting the caffeine jitters, at least if we're talking green tea. If this is so much of a concern, coffee drinkers must be putting their lives at risk? :-p — Northgrove 00:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up this article to look up how much caffeine green tea has. I did tone down the line in 'unproven claims' and also added the half-of-coffee statement to a new section called "Caffeine" for lack of a section called "Ingredients" or "Contents" or "What chemicals are found in green tea". (I did this because I didn't think a simple assertion about caffeine belonged in 'unproven claims', and indeed the current line in 'unproven claims' is out of place.) And, the caffeine article states that caffeine found in tea goes by another name, but it is not a name familiar to the public; it's a synonym for caffeine; and the caffiene article doesn't make it clear when it is technically correct to use this other name; so I didn't substitute it here. But, yes, the half-of-coffee assertion needs a citation, and also I assume different varieties or different processing would affect the caffeine content, and this should be discussed; and are there brands that are fortified with extra caffeine? Tempshill 21:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reguardless of caffeine content, I don't think caffeine is a drug with enough known health dangers to be of "major concern" to many people.--Metalhead94 (talk) 00:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Caffieine does cause heart arrhythmia (pvc) http://www.drhull.com/EncyMaster/A/arrhythmia.html Many weekend atheletes find this out in the spring. 208.90.100.35 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]

This should not be in the Unproven Claims section. This reads like a side effect. Many points in the Unproven Claims section directly contradict statements made in other areas of the article and some of the statements are not even Unproven Claims about green tea. This section needs to be updated/cleaned up.--67.241.44.89 (talk) 19:03, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Caffeine Discussion II

This article at one point says that Green Tea has about a quarter of the caffeine of coffee (in the caffeine section), and later says that it has half the caffeine of coffee (in the unproven claims section). For anybody who wants to incorporate it, here's some data I from the Mayo Clinic website

Green tea, 8 oz. 25-40 milligrams of caffeine

Coffee, Plain, brewed, 8 ounces (oz.) 135 milligrams

Instant, 8 oz. 95 milligrams

Espresso, 1 fluid oz. 30-50 milligrams

Flavored, 8 oz. 25-100 milligrams

Decaffeinated, brewed, 8 oz. 5 milligrams

Decaffeinated, instant, 8 oz. 3 milligrams

Starbucks' Coffee Grande, 16 oz. 259 milligrams

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/caffeine/AN01211

KYJustin 00:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't suppose it is appropriate data, because even in Japanese green tea, the caffeine consistent differs in each kind of tea, Gyokuro: 0.16% Sencha: 0.02% Bancha: 0.008% (in infusion) [5] --82.228.233.54 16:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another Caffeine in Green Tea discussion page for a quick read: Green Tea --99.243.120.36 (talk) 21:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per USDA database (http://199.133.10.140/codesearchwebapp) Green tea, item #92302000 = 36mg caffeine per 6 oz. Regular coffee, item #92101000 = 71 mg caffeine per 6 oz. It appears from this that the "half the caffeine of coffee" can be supported but "one third" or "one quarter" cannot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.5.100.27 (talk) 16:11, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to this paper from University of Leeds "Caffeine contents of black teas (22-28 mg/g of DM) were significantly higher than in less fermented green teas (11-20 mg/g of DM)".[6]Rocator (talk) 21:21, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was reading this article to get some information about Green Tea and caffeine, but this phrase, "Normal green tea itself may contain more caffeine than coffee" does not seem to be supported by any other information in the article and sounds contradictory. From reading all the other references and numbers in the article, there does not seem to be any scenario in which it would contain more caffeine then regular coffee (135 milligrams). It seems out of place. Just because someone, in some unusual situation can brew Green Tea with more caffeine, does not mean it belongs there. If it belongs in there at all, my humble suggestion to this group would be it could say, "Certain kinds of Green Tea, brewed long enough, could even contain more caffeine than coffee. However the majority of Green tea brews contain closer to a third as much..." or something like that.--JoeSeo (talk) 18:55, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My (unscientific) experience is that good matcha powder can really buzz you out, which I have interpreted as meaning matcha (powdered green tea) delivers higher caffine content than brewed green tea - a distinction I don't see mentioned here. So if there is a lot of caffine in a green tea leaf, effectively locked into the leaf, and released not by infusion, but by pulverising the leaf, then yeah, green tea has a lot of caffine. Anyone know how much? If black tea has "more" caffine than green tea, where'd it come from anyway? The fermentation process created it? Was it not there all along?

173.120.244.2 (talk) 14:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Erectile Dysfunction???

It's at the very end of the article. It is not sourced. It reads like someone bullshitting and trying to sound scientific:

"A study in June, 2004 shows that green tea may be a cause of ER, erectile dysfunction. Green tea keeps the human body at a more relaxed state. In turn, the male body decreases its testosterone causes something known as hormonal disorders." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.215.184 (talk) 18:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Upside-down

Why are the details of the types of Green Teas before the more basic information? While this detailed information is good, shouldn't it follow the more basic information on green tea? Dkalweit (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Header Spam

Jamie: thanks for taking that out. Do you have any idea when it was added? Looks like it was in there for a while and it's surprising that no one noticed it. Alexwoods (talk) 18:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Units

The article says "2.25 grams of tea per 6 ounces of water", which is rather silly. "grams per gram" and "ounces per ounces" would make some kind of sense, but I think better would be "grams per deciliter" and "ounces per (whatever the appropriate sized Imperial unit for liquid volume is)". I'd change this to g/dl, but I'm not sure what is meant by ounces here, as the ounces article says there are multiple meanings. Presumably it is "international avoirdupois ounce", or maybe "international troy ounce", or possibly "metric ounce" (as that would sort of make sense when saying "grams/ounce"). Quite confusing. -- Coffee2theorems (talk) 17:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Processing

The article on Black tea has a very nice section describing how black tea is processed, which explains how it is different from white tea. I think this article would benefit from a similar section, and in particular a synopsis of what makes green tea different from white and black teas. Meekohi (talk) 20:33, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

mushicha

蒸し (mushi) 深むし (hukamushi) is the second name a different type ? (a late growing and long steamed one?) FCartegnie (talk) 13:43, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

fukamushi/hikamushi seems a generic term for long steamed tea —Preceding unsigned comment added by FCartegnie (talk • contribs) 15:36, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reverts

(Copied a discussion from User talk:Phoenix7777#Reverts in order to catch the attention of more editors. Subsequent discussion should be made here not there.) ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 02:28, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Took me lots of time collecting infos. Please discuss before reverting a whole set. All teas are from what I find and what I've bought in stores. aracha sencha japanese might be 煎茶の荒茶 rather than 荒茶煎茶 aracha gyokuro

Koicha / Usucha 抹茶

konacha

Then you can't reasonably place genmatcha as a type of tea, as this isn't a tea but a mix. Same thoughts with aracha (raw), and houjicha (roasted sencha with can also be bancha).

Might need some more cleanup on this article, as most the the tea names are just different processings of gyokuro, sencha, bancha... Might need to sub-categorize.

FCartegnie (talk) 13:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edits with an edit summary of "Generally inaccurate edits. What is the source?"".[7]Then your answer is "All teas are from what I find and what I've bought in stores. This is what is called "a personal opinion".
Your edits are basically consists of three edits:
  1. Categorization of Japanese tea.
  2. Addition of three types of Japanese tea; Aracha, Fukamushi, and organic.
  3. Addition of explanation to Matcha.
  • Categorization of Japanese tea
    Categorization of Japanese tea is very difficult even for the expert of Japanese tea. What is the grounds of your categorization of "By origin" and "By processing"? Kamairicha, Matcha, Konacha, and Tamaryokucha are apparently differentiated by processing. Bancha and Sencha are differentiated by picking season. Sencha and Gyokuro are differentiated by cultivar. Gyokuro and Kabusecha are differentiated from Sencha by cultivation method. The use of the word "origin" is too simplified to describe the "origin" of varieties. Japanese famous tea manufacturer Ito en categorized the Japanese tea quite differently.[8] (in Japanese) ie, Cultivation method, Picking season, Pre-processing method, Final processing method, and Special processing method.
    Can't we just use their classification as guideline for categorizing ? FCartegnie (talk) 15:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Addition of three types of Japanese tea.
    There are many varieties of Japanese tea, So we should limit the list only with the very popular one. See Japanese article.
    • Aracha is basically the semi-processed goods. Although it may be sold in the market, you can hardly buy at a teashop or a supermarket in Japan. Moreover your explanation "produced by farmers before being sent to refineries" is inaccurate, because it may be refined in the same factory.
    • I don't have much objection about Fukamushi, however its name should be Fukamushicha. See Japanese article].
    • "Organic" is not a variety of Japanese tea. It is not appropriate to mention in this list.
      Not a variety, but a different production process. FCartegnie (talk) 15:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Addition of explanation to Matcha.
    The description about the difference of Koicha and Usucha whether it is "Made from plants younger than 30 years" is incorrect. It may be in the past, however now it seems to be determined by the quality of materials. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 02:28, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to comment on your addition of Konacha. I agree, however the name Gyokuroko should be placed as an explanation, because Konacha is a common and generic name whereas Gyokuroko is a kind of a marketing name. So it is better to add an explanation like "it is also marketed as Gyokuroko or Gyokurokocha". ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:55, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First, I should note the very fundamental comment. Wikipedia is not for the editors who wish to edit but for the readers who wish to know the "fact". Your edits are generally inaccurate, in other word, "not factually correct". You should have more systematic knowledge of Japanese tea instead of a partial knowledge from your personal experience or Google search. Did you read a reference I added[9] about the variations of Japanese tea[10]? This book may even be a POV of an author. We should consult other resource to be confident of the classification of Japanese tea. This may require to consult a Japanese language source like I gave above[11].
As I already pointed out above, current version of this article is not factually correct. So why don't we start from the seemingly stable version[12]? ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 01:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Wikipedia couln't help me identifying some teas and after getting information on them I added it to the pages. If you have better sources, fix my edits. The "list" is becoming a raw list of tea names which doesn't help: That's why I try to categorize them. FCartegnie (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, current version is incorrect regarding the classification of Japanese tea, Please restore it by yourself to the previous raw list with your addition of several teas. Then I will edit to improve the article. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think we could use the japanese wiki classification which seems more accurate [13], except it separates matcha from the main tree but it is still made of. I'll try to embed some ito-en classifications into this one.
Done FCartegnie (talk) 15:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tea generally or Green Tea specifically?

This whole article seems to miss the focus of the specific article title. The "tea plant" which provides the leaves for any variety of "true" tea (that is, a tea beverage based on the leaves of the "tea plant") is a variety of camellia having the scientific name Camellia sinensis. If those leaves have not undergone fermentation in the process of making them into the substance that is used to make the "tea" beverage (Camellia sinensis leaves infused in hot water, or Camellia sinensis leaves milled into a fine powder and then blended with hot water, or whatever), they belong to the general category of "green tea." The tea traditionally associated with Japan is this non-fermented sort of Camellia sinensis leaf, while the tea traditionally associated with China comes from semi-fermented Camellia sinensis leaves, and the "black tea" traditionally popular in England and other areas of Europe comes from fully-fermented Camellia sinensis leaves. There are many varieties, grades, and forms of non-fermented Camellia sinensis leaves processed for making many kinds of "green tea" beverage or, recently, "green tea" food ingredient. This article should be focused on these. The wikipedia has other articles about "tea" in general, and the different sorts of semi-fermented and fully fermented tea.

I agree.Tksb (talk) 03:28, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight to Health effects

This article has too long descriptions regarding health effects compared to other similar articles like Black tea and Tea. As there is a main article Health effects of tea, most of the descriptions should be moved to there (if it is worth while) or removed. The word counts are as follows;

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 05:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One month past without any objections. So I removed most of descriptions about health effects. If someone wish to add additional information, please consider writing to Health effects of tea article. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that there's undue weight, but much of the removed text was cited content specifically about green tea. Suggest refining and contextualising rather than blanket deleting. Greenman (talk) 09:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK your revert action is to keep all those undue weight materials intact. No one will make "refining and contextualizing" them. Why don't you do that by yourself without reverting all? Deleted materials will not disappear from Wikipedia. Anyone can restore them, if they are thought to be worthwhile. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I commented out them instead of deleting so as to easily be restored. If you cannot do "refining and contextualizing" by yourself, please do not restore all of them again instead of restoring what are thought to be worthwhile. Otherwise, you are considered to be endorsing the undue weight. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Commenting out large slabs of an article is not generally acceptable. The Health effects section is indeed large, but I'm not sure it can be described as tendentious editing, because it's very well referenced and goes out of its away to analyze claims pro and con (that is, there is no undue weight given to any view in particular), and all the cites do appear to be specifically about green tea.
I do agree that the section is rather too long and overlaps in large part with Health effects of tea — however, the content will have to be well incorporated into that article before it can be removed from here. Jpatokal (talk) 11:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then why don't you do that instead of reverting? ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article is better with the cited edits in, rather than out. Wikipedia is written by volunteers, so why are you asking others to do this work for you? So to clarify, I am endorsing the "undue weight" version over the "lite" version. Since two editors (inluding myself) seem to disagree with removing the text and the citations, please seek consensus before making this change again. Greenman (talk) 19:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that two vs. one is not considered to be a consensus formed. Cited materials are irrelevant to this problem. You can write a hundred page well cited inappropriate section in this article. I somewhat understand if someone who contributed to the deleted portions objects to the deletion. However both of you seem to have contributed to this article very little. As both of you seem to have a slightest idea to improve this article by yourself, I bet you will not participate in solving this problem for ever. If you commit to participate to solve this problem rather than relying on others, I will willingly withdraw from this discussion. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:32, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your contribution. Wikipedia is not a casino or a trading game though, and the object is to make the articles better, bit by bit, not try and lump off work onto others. The article is better as it stands with the content rather than with the wholesale deletions. This is not "consensus", as you seem to imply I said, it's the opinion of two editors interested enough to comment. One editor is even less of a consensus. As soon as there's a disagreement, the principle is to try and reach consensus before edit warring. It would be better with further changes as discussed, but I'm not expecting you or anyone else to do them, and nor should you. Greenman (talk) 23:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't have said it better myself. Jpatokal (talk) 07:49, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Greenman and Jpatokal, we were too much focused on the discussion about the wholesale deletion. Both of you already expressed the agreement on the fact of the undue weight. We should change the discussion more constructive to improve the article. The current health effect section occupies 65% of the article. This should be reduced at most to 30%, the half of the current volume. Is this target acceptable? Then could each of you suggest what part should be kept or removed in this article? ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't agree. "Undue weight" means giving too much weight to something to support a view, which is not the case here. As said, I don't agree to removing anything from the article unless it's moved to a better place first. Jpatokal (talk) 10:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand the undue weight in this discussion, it is "undue weight to the health effect section" not "undue weight to any particular view". If undue weigh is inappropriate, please read it just too long. You said I don't agree to removing anything, then please suggest what should be moved where and how. Please be constructive. We don't need unconstructive critics in Wikipedia. If you can't, please get away from here. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Appropriate Citations again: History of Tea in China

The reference to About.com regarding Shen Nung (Pinyin: Shen Nong) is stated as if it were history. In fact, it is only useful as a popular or legendary origin of tea--definitely not as historical (as the Wiki page read--now changed). Needham's _Science and Civilisation in China_ would be a good place to start researching tea's Chinese history, and there are probably many more recent books that give a reliable summary of the history of tea in China. Also, the section on history should be linked to the other Wikipedia page, History of Tea. Sorry that I've no time to do this myself now. Apeman (talk) 21:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Caffeine

This section should have scientific study for the reference sources. icetea8 (talk) 15:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Tea Flower"?

I've heard of a tea variety (actually, more of a "packaging" variety) that consists of tea leaves bound together to form a "flower". For preparation, one flower per cup is used, and the tea is ready when the flower has "opened". (IIRC, my recollection is vague). However, I couldn't find it here. Anyone knows what I'm talking about? -- megA (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Jasmine tea and Flowering tea . Oda Mari (talk) 15:55, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes, that's it. Thank you! -- megA (talk) 08:31, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction

I'm aware this article is horridly messy, but a direct contradiction is just ridiculous. It states both that Green tea helps prevent cancer, and then claims that it is not proven that Green tea helps prevent cancer a little further down in the section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.104 (talk) 09:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

About health claims, editors should also check Health effects of tea. icetea8 (talk) 14:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is contradictory. In fact, here's a very recent study from pubmed which appears to validate the cancer-fighting and cancer-preventing effects of green tea. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21827739 Ajkochanowicz (talk) 19:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep health claims centralized in the main Health effects of tea article. icetea8 (talk) 05:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tea Wiki

Can relevant information - types of tea etc - be copied over to the Tea Wiki at [14]. Further contributions are of course welcome. Jackiespeel (talk) 18:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tea Guardian a reliable source?

I'm failing to see how http://teaguardian.com is a reliable source. Looks like an ad-heavy blog to me. --Ronz (talk) 16:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Potential references

--Ronz (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These reviews – added to the “further reading” - section – is meant for readers who would like to know more about the article subject. (WP:FURTHER). Please elaborate on your reasons for why something else than the Wikipedia guideline for the “further reading” – section should apply for the “further reading” – section? Granateple (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion at Talk:Cranberry#Moved_from_article:_Review_articles_on_possible_health_benefits --Ronz (talk) 02:52, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MEDRS needs to be applied better to this article

Looks like individual studies are being over-emphasized, rather than following WP:MEDRS. --Ronz (talk) 17:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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