Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard

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on mouseover = Bible Verse

There are several problems with the handling of Bible verses and references as present managed in wikipedia as other talk-pages and discussions show. This is section contains a simple suggestion which would be very user-friendly: a simple template which brings up a box when the cursor is placed on the reference in the article and the box would contain in small type the verse or verses inserted by the editor.

In outline, if the template were called "window", we would have:

{{window|reference|text|version}}

For example:

{{window|John 1:1|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.|RV}}

The version should appear at the end between brackets, and if possible should be a required data-field. Jpacobb (talk) 18:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I later came across the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-04-30/Discussion_report which deals with a similar idea. There are some lessons to be learnt, particularly about pop-up blocking, but my proposal is much more specific since it affects only a small number of references. Jpacobb (talk) 19:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

That is a very good idea in fact. I support the proposal. History2007 (talk) 09:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

F. C. D. Wyneken

Friends, I noticed that much material here was deleted because it substantially copied my article, "Wyneken as Missionary." I give my permission to copy from my article as much as is needed to tell his story, or from my other works for that matter. It has been a long time since I have edited here, so I cannot figure out how to restore it. Would someone do so or, even better, expand the article based on it? It is really busy here as we approach the end of an academic year. Thanks! --CTSWyneken^(talk)

New Workgroup - Christian History

I would like to propose a new workgroup for Christian History. I've noticed that there are a lot of articles that could use the support of a group specifically devoted to the historical study of Christianity. What needs to be done to get this workgroup started? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReformedArsenal (talk • contribs) 04:44, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea, and as usual, what is needed is people to work on it. Many of those articles have incorrect info, missing references, etc. Early Church history articles are specially incomplete and incorrect. If you start on it, I can do a few things there as well. History2007 (talk) 09:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm happy to filter through things as we go... I'm a graduate student (Just finished my MA in Church History, but I have another that I'm doing next year, so time isn't always a premium). How do we go about getting a workgroup going and getting a template like {{WikiProject Bible}} for Christian History? ReformedArsenal (talk) 13:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Anyone can build a template. And anyone can place it anywhere if no one else objects. Select the template you like among the many available, and you can just substitute items. If you need help, just leave me a message and I will fix it. It is pretty easy - the only thing is to select the items that go into it. I will leave one on your talk page and you can just extend it if you like. History2007 (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I love the template!! What I was looking for though was for a Wikiproject subgroup. Like the one that indicates the class and importance

Like this one

That one is generic, and you do not need to build it. Regarding where to set the subproject/task I think you should leave a message for user:John Carter who knows where it would fit best. History2007 (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

A few things come to mind:

• 1) In general, it has been suggested that at least five people should so an interest in a proposed group before it gets started. That is of course a rough guideline, and with me we have at least three people so far who seem interested in such a group. It might be a good idea to wait to see if there are any other people interested as well.
• 2) It would have to have some sort of page indicating the articles within its scope, etc., like any other project or subproject. We could probably build that when and if there is sufficient interest shown.
• 3) It would really help if we had a clear indication of the specific intended scope of the group. I personally could maybe see a group (or multiple groups) focused on two specific areas of greatest contention, neither of which clearly falls within the scope of any of the extant related projects: early Christianity and the Reformation/Counter-Reformation era. But a clear indicator of scope would also be called for.
• 4) Once all that is done, then I could, if we needed, alter the project banner to allow for individual assessment of articles included in the scope of the group and have them tagged approporiately.
• It might however be a good idea to see if there are more interested parties, and to determine as clearly as possible what will and will not be considered within the scope of the proposed group. John Carter (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I was able to figure out the header alright, but I'll need some major help making a page for the Project. I will probably do what I did with the template and just copy another page's and make appropriate changes... unless someone else has the knowledge and time. I've got individual assessments working. ReformedArsenal (talk) 21:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

As a first candidate for attention, let me suggest Pliny the Younger on Christians. That is a relevant piece of Christian history that has received a low quality treatment so far, as the talk page indicates. And as of yesterday it became the subject of an educational assignment so students will be passing through. I think it will be good if that gets the attention of this effort of Christian History. History2007 (talk) 12:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I like it. I'll take a run through it this weekend... it's graduation, but I should have some time on Sunday evening. Let's start applying the template {{WikiProject Christian History|Class=|Importance=|Attention=}} to flag the ones that we need to work on (and to start classifying things for our project). Also, lets start getting a running list going over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian History. Also, if you guys could pop over and add your names to the list, that would be great. I want to get departments up and running soon... but I don't have a lot of know how on how to do that.

I signed up for it. John Cater knows the project issues better than myself, so we should leave the project organization to him. I will discuss issues on the project talk page now. History2007 (talk) 14:05, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

This is a good idea, the history section on the Christianity page is also pretty limited. Jainsworth16 (talk) 15:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that also needs help. We are making a "to do list" on the project page. It would be good if you could also add your name there (just a signature) to get the project gain momentum. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

Comments on this requested move will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 09:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

And Talk:Saint Joanna In ictu oculi (talk) 08:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Articles needing attention

Dear community, I am new in asking for help, but I need your capable assistance in the matter of Adam Cappa, Andy Cherry and Moriah Peters at the current time, but in the future may need assistance with Tricia Brock, Matt Hammitt, Dara Maclean, Lindsay McCaul and Rend Collective Experiment. I need you all to use MUSICBIO criteria to judge these article alone for notablitity in the ongoing deletion discussions we are having and maybe in the future if need be. By the way, I want you all to look at Ashes Remain, and a new article to be created later Samestate, when I can get to it.HotHat (talk) 04:45, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Anabaptist work group

I am integrating into the project banner specific code for a separate work group for the Anabaptists, meaning separate from the Baptist work group. I think it makes sense to separate them. I am in the process of creating a separate page for the group as well, along the lines of WP:FMH. Just give me a bit of time to make sure everything holds together before I make changes. I shall indicate progress here as it is made. However, I am not a code monkey. Code monkeys have a far better idea of what they are doing than I do. I am just a hairy monkey. It will take me a bit longer to get up on the code and such. John Carter (talk) 21:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Could you put the Christian History one in there as well while you do that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReformedArsenal (talk • contribs) 02:41, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Christianity banner

The new banner can be found at User:John Carter/Christianity banner, and is shown in use at User talk:John Carter/Christianity banner. John Carter (talk) 18:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Looks very good. Not sure if Halloween task force was not a typo, but otherwise great. History2007 (talk) 18:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_May_21#Category:Depictions_of_the_Virgin_Mary

A renaming CFD for a large art category. Johnbod (talk) 02:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

No worries. That can be easily verified by searching through a few books. History2007 (talk) 04:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Joan of Arc gets a higher score than Jesus?

Yeah, it seems kind of strange to me, but according to this statistics page her "score" is three points higher. Does anyone have any ideas how this is, and maybe what we could do to change this, if it should be of course, and, maybe, how to do something similar with any other articles that seem to have unreasonable scores? John Carter (talk) 01:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Do we have any idea what that score measures? I would assume it favours quality; Joan of Arc is a featured article, while Jesus is not. Furthermore, Joan may be of interest to other groups of users (say, the military history buffs), and that may increase that article's score as well. Anyway, I don't think score optimisation is a worthwhile endeavour in itself. Huon (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The scores are generated based on importance and quality. If you want the Jesus article to have a 'higher' score, improve the article. However, there is no special reason that the Jesus article 'should' be better from some POV theological perspective. Ideally, all articles should be of high quality.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

An interesting point - Thanks for raising it, John! My immediate reactions are as follows: (i) the Jesus article is over-referenced with a lot of multiple sources being given which means that visually it is unattractive; (ii) any Jesus article will be highly conflictive which means balancing alternative positions - while this should not affect quality, it often seems to do so; (iii) Joan is a far more manageable subject, while Jesus has many potential ramifications and possible "see also's" which makes it difficult to maintain coherence and readability; (iv)the Jesus article has had over 24,000 editorial interventions, as against 6000+ for the Joan of Arc one = "too many cooks ..."?

One serious question comes to mind: Is the Jesus article way over the maximum recommended length for a single article? If so, how should this be remedied? Jpacobb (talk) 17:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The Jesus article is getting close to the border of the length recommendations but has not breached it. The archeology section may be trimmed and made a new article for instance. There are many other much longer articles in Wikipedia. And for a highly controversial topic, the Jesus page has been surprisingly stable for some time, with no edit wars etc. And yes, there are many references in that article, indeed - because I put them there. I put them in to avoid disputes about sources, and that has worked. That page used to be a very volatile boat, now it is stable - no need to rock it in my view. It may have had 24,000 edits, but if you look now, it is a pretty calm situation. The last brouhaha was about calling Jesus Palestinian or not, and that revolved around 3 or 4 words and was resolved. The only section that has a flag is the Bahai section, and we are waiting for an editor who knows that topic to come back from a trip so he can fix it. But deleting references to help visual appeal will be a nightmare we do not want to get into. There are many other articles in this project that need much more help than that. May I mention God in Christianity again that had a major improvement by yourself, but still awaits help. As for the ratings/stats, I never pay attention to them. Content is what matters in my view. In those scores Galileo and Isaac Newton both score above God, Bible and Crucifixion... Halloween scores above the Eucharist, Trinity and the Lord's prayer. Those scores are obviously meaningless for this project anyway. History2007 (talk) 18:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, History2007. So far as the references are concerned, why not follow standard academic format and group all the references at any one point of the text under a single number? Eg

I think a simple search & replace searching for "<ref></ref>" and replacing with "<br />" should do most of the work. Jpacobb (talk) 22:06, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Example References

Smith, A.B.C. Some Subject Publisher1, p.123
Jones, Y.Z. Same Subject Publisher2, p.321

Well, nothing is "simple" in an article with 300k views a month and 1694 watchers. Some time ago a user started changing all those references (one by one) to conform to GA or FA or whatever standard, after some discussion. He changed something like half of them, then somehow stopped. We are still waiting to see if he will continue. Undoing all his changes will "not be wise". That article is viewed by many people with many backgrounds - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Bahai, atheists, etc. The date formats say AD/CE for that reason. It is not just a simple matter of making a decision there. History2007 (talk) 22:19, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

You're looking at the results of the WP:1.0 team's selection algorithm for offline releases. Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Article selection has the details on how it is calculated. It rates articles according to quality, number of incoming links, importance per WikiProject, and so forth. It is not meant to draw fine distinctions between articles, and you need not worry: both of these articles will easily make the final selection list. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:32, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks I did not know what those numbers were used for. But as an aside, heuristics obtained by straight multiplication often get very skewed results, so just multiplying numbers, which may be rough in the first place, often amplifies the roughness - giving surprising results. History2007 (talk) 22:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Request for someone to take a look at Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

Stumbled across a rather odd series of additions to Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God while reviewing WP:SCV. It looks to me like someone adding a bunch of non-notable stuff to the article, but its so far outside my area of knowledge that I thought it would be prudent to ask for someone more knowledgeable about the subject to take a look at it. So if someone could take a look at it and either remove the material, or let me know its appropriate, I'd appreciate it. Monty₈₄₅ 04:29, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah... it's irrelevant to the article... and this guy's sermon is basically a straight copy of Edward's with some slight alterations. Thanks for the heads up. ReformedArsenal (talk) 12:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

New Template:Heresies in Catholicism

A new template was created earlier today Template:Heresies in Catholicism - I have my concerns about it (see Template talk:Heresies in Catholicism) - I think other people should have a look at it as well. Jpacobb (talk) 00:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I have nominated this for deletion: see Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 May 24#Template:Heresies in Catholicism. Mangoe (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Guidelines and standards continuity for articles on Christian organisations

Dear Christianity noticeboard editors, I'm rather new to Wiki, and it's possible this query is not appropriate here (so feel free to redirect me). I've been in the process of creating an article on the Christian organization, Community Bible Study (CBS) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Community_Bible_Study. I keep failing to get it accepted for reasons that do make sense, particularly regarding issues of credible media attention. However, in comparing the CBS draft to the accepted article on Bible Study Fellowship (BSF), I'm confused. The BSF article seems very thin and yet it was accepted. (Have Wiki guidelines changed since 2009?) Thoughts? Thanks so much! ChristelledeWit (talk) 11:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, as WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS explains, the existence of some articles with insufficient notability or sources is no reason to have more of them. Secondly, the Bible Study Fellowship article dates back to 2005 and never went through the AfC process (I doubt that process even existed back then). I doubt guidelines have changed significantly since 2005, but I believe we have become more strict in enforcing them - at least when we notice substandard articles; there may be lots that just fly below the radar. BSF seems to be the subject of several books, though; if those works aren't self-published by BSF members they will likely suffice to establish notability. Huon (talk) 11:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

List of heresies in Catholicism

I have proposed that the above page be moved. Please feel free to take part in the discussion at Talk:List of heresies in Catholicism#Requested move. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 22:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Urgent Issue with Anglican Diocese of Pittsburgh

User:Danbarnesdavies has renamed the article Anglican Diocese of Pittsburgh to Diocese of Pittsburgh (Anglican Church in North America). The edit summary says the following, "(Danbarnesdavies moved page Talk:Anglican Diocese of Pittsburgh to Talk:Diocese of Pittsburgh (Anglican Church in North America): prefix Anglican incorrect (not actual Anglicans))". Please discuss on the article's talk page. Ltwin (talk) 17:08, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Dead project subpages

Hi, I have proposed Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Todo for deletion as it has not been used for 5 years. I am also minded to nominate Wikipedia:WikiProject_Christianity/Articles, a very long list which has not been maintained since 2008 and is now full of redlinks anyway; any objections? – Fayenatic London 09:07, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, how about the index of categories at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Jesus work group/Categories (not maintained since 2009)? – Fayenatic London 09:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Can´t see any problems, but as a relative newcomer maybe I don't have enough experience to spot them yet. I'd be interested in a reaction from John Carter and/or History2007. The articles subpage is a visual mess and unless the Bot is still available seems pretty pointless. Jpacobb (talk) 19:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is need for some serious clean up, as you said. Why don't we make a "project plan" and try to clean things up before the end of the year. So we make a list of the organizational items, and decide to do items A, B C each month. And once we have the self-imposed deadline, we may actually meet it. I am trying to make a list of the "key articles" e.g. God, Trinity, Holy Spirit, etc. and see what needs to happen on those. And by the way, if you look at the talk page of the Christianity article, the editors have an agreement that there is need for improvement, but the plan is yet to be formed. So your comments will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 19:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

That sounds good. Any ideas for the first month? John Carter (talk) 00:28, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I would start by deciding what needs to be done in the next 6 months, then divide by 5 and leave a buffer because as we all know... So we need a list first, then we will divide by 5 and do one per month. History2007 (talk) 00:34, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

As a proposal, in no particular order. Also noted that some might take longer than just a single month to complete:

1) assessment - including quality and, where possible, priority, so that we know what we have and how good (or bad) it is. Also, it allows us to find duplicate articles more easily. I remember once finding three different articles on the same friend of Muhammad with the same spelling, just different punctuation.

2) MOS - I just asked for input at WT:MOS about the proposed Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Manual of style. Having that in place would help a lot of people have a better idea of how to construct articles.

3) Portals - not necessarily important, but they are nice and help "show off" content and make it easier for outsiders to see what we have

4) Collaboration - honestly, it is going to be hard, if not almost impossible, to find material on some of the figures in the Assyrian Church of the East and some of the Eastern Orthodox churches in English. Maybe a collaboration, with several people looking for material, might help there.

Just a start, anyway. John Carter (talk) 01:00, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we could have the MOS as an ongoing long term task, but the then my feeling is that we need to deal with the key items first, then the others. So while some people may want to work on Assyrian Church of the East, I think the major theological issues need serious help. I am not even sure if anyone is watching Christian theology since Carlaude retired. History2007 (talk) 06:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Current requests for peer review and nominees for Good or Featured status

Several editors have requested peer reviews of articles relating to Christianity. The current requests for peer review include Fyodor Dostoyevsky. Current GA nominations include Bartolomé de las Casas, John the Warrior, Edmund the Martyr, Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa, and Joseph Franklin Rutherford. And, lastly, William S. Sadler is a current nominee for FA status. Byzantine Empire is also currently being considered for FA review. Any assistance with any of these pages would be most welcome. John Carter (talk) 17:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know who nominated the John the Warrior article but I doubt whether the English will pass muster. Do GA's require inline parenthetic referencing? Jpacobb (talk) 23:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Require might be a bit strong, but, yeah, they are indicated. It is probably worth noting that some articles nominated for GA can at times barely reasonably qualify as "Start" class, but sometimes some people need to learn that the hard way. I think there is a "Quick-fail" option for GA reviewers if they see something that clearly isn't up to GA level. John Carter (talk) 19:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

RFC: Churches vs. church buildings

Hi folks. There were a couple of discussions in May about whether categories that sort church (buildings) by country and US state should be named "Churches in Foo" or "Church buildings in Foo." The relevant discussions are from May 4 and May 12, addressing countries and states, respectively. Both proposals were to move "Church buildings in" to "Churches in." Currently, treatment among both countries and states is inconsistent, and I think most people advocating for either format would agree that consistency is desirable. Both discussions have gone cold in June with few hints at consensus, so I'd encourage you to take a look at them and weigh in as you feel appropriate. --BDD (talk) 19:31, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

How to add a new section to existing page of an article?

Hi,

I am new to wikipedia and had permission from an external web site owner to do add some new view into an existing view.

This page is predominated by the predestination view of John Calvin of Geneva. However, the view that I wish to add to is different in many aspects of the John Calvin's doctrine, because the writer of this view is not a follower of John Calvin.

It is a minority view, no doubt about that, but no less than an alternative view also. Which qualifies it as a section within this

Existing view on Predestination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

Extended content

Originally I added this section under Predestination#Various views on Christian predestination Unconditional Salvation Ephesian 1:11-12 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. The Unconditional Salvation view of eternal salvation is purely unconditional on part of the individuals chosen before the creation of time by God the Word(not written word), Godhead Himself, manifested in the flesh of mankind by person of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This view may sound similar to the well famous Calvinism made famous because of teachings of John Calvin. However, they would plainly reject John Calvin as the originator of such doctrine. Because practical differences of within these doctrine when compared to the well known T.U.L.I.P. Godhead did choose the individuals from all eternity prior to creation, but passively long-suffered the created being to fall into sin. Hence, in Unconditional Salvation, this view does not implicate the Godhead in direct causing of mankind in the activities of sins. This view is also contradictory to the Calvinistic view of pro-active reprobating of the unchoosen mankind. Hence, in Calvinistic view, in Godhead in participating or direct cause of bringing mankind into sins against Himself. This view also includes another contradictory point of Calvinistic view in which it is power of Godhead(and not the saints) that preservation(maintain/sustains) of saints into the stage of eternal life. Judaism, Roman Catholics, Calvinistic and also Arminianism, however, place the responsibilities of entering eternal life on the hand of a limited power mankind. Having clearly state this, most would just regard this as another form of Hyper Calvinistic view, from John Calvin of Geneva, by most people. This group of people would ask history itself into account of the multiple fruits of saints holding such view that are martyred during the time of the dark ages and also the clear writing of the Holy Bible when rightly divided. For more information: unconditional-salvation [1] Or Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Truth http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/salvation/calvinism-arminianism/sermon.php

I have communicated with Nathan2055 and he suggested me to post this in this discussion group.

Could someone please help me to advice how best this can be done. I do not mind if a new article is created in an entirely different page dedicated to do such comparison. Thanks very much for any assistant. Mattongbp (talk) 15:51, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

My feeling is that the source you have is not WP:RS and probably subject to WP:Fringe. That Wikipedia page is pretty low quality overall, but the source you have does not help it much. Unless you have WP:RS sources for those and show that they are minority views rather than Fringe, I doubt if you will be able to add it. History2007 (talk) 16:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with History2007 and also have to note that the paragraph's language is, to put it mildly, strange. For example, I have no idea what the last sentence is supposed to say. It almost reads like a machine translation of some foreign-language text. It's also highly problematic to declare one interpretation of the Bible the correct one; other theologians would probably disagree. I'd suggest attributing the belief to the group that holds them - there's an important distinction between "Group X believes the Bible says Y" and "The Bible says Y". Huon (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Yearly_Meeting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Yearly_Meeting has a photo of the Farmer's Institute Friends Meeting as an exemplar of an old Indiana Yearly Meeting Quaker Meeting. The problem is that The Farmer's Institute is a member of the Western Yearly Meeting and as far as I know, it always has been. I am a member of the Lafayette Friends Meeting: we are good friends with the Farmers Institute Friends and attend one anothers' meetings in spite of our philosophical differences. Perhaps some other photo of an old meeting house that is a member of the Indiana Yearly Meeting might be substituted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomarelli (talk • contribs) 02:32, 11 June 2012 (UTC)