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Italicisation of common names

Some plant genera have common names that are the same as their scientific ones. Is it recommended that the name is italicised throughout articles of such plants? The Rhododendron article is an example where currently both forms (italicised and non-italicised) are used. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 04:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since many of the Wikipedia guidelines look at common names as opposite scientific names, and in order to avoid confusion, I wonder if it would be slightly more accurate to call these cases 'generic names that are commonly used' instead of just 'common name'? To answer your question, yes, definately; if it is spelled the same, then it is the scientific name (whether used commonly or not), and would normally be italicized. They should also be capitalized, which many are not yet in that article. --Tom Hulse (talk) 05:16, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are more ramifications, for example plurals. It is ordinary to speak of rhododendrons, cannas, and irises, but those of us who are extremely old-school would write Rhododendra, Gerania (or Pelargonia) and Irides, and most plant taxonomists will go out of their way to avoid making a generic name plural: "species of Rhododendron", "Iris cultivars". And the geranium/Pelargonium split brings up another issue, that many common names refer to different genera than their generic homonyms, or are no longer used as genera (godetia comes immediately to mind). (Another thing that bugs me is the use of the definite article with scientific names: "The Sequoia sempervirens is a tall tree.")--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have to disagree with Tom. I'm happy to use rhododendron, iris, geranium, canna, etc. as English names. We (i.e. plant editors) are already somewhat out of step with Wikipedia generally by making scientific names the first choice for article titles. We shouldn't make our articles more off-putting to the general reader. In an article it is sometimes appropriate to write "Rhododendron" or "species of Rhododendron" and sometimes appropriate to write "rhododendron" or "rhododendrons". It depends on the context. (But, pace Curtis Clark, it's never appropriate to write "Rhododendra".)
I too get really bugged by the use of "the" with a scientific name. Maybe it should be in some Manual of Style page somewhere – not because those who write like this will read the MoS but because it makes it easier to defend removing the article.
By the way, if you want to try sorting out a tricky case, see Aloe vera. The product of Aloe vera is called "aloe vera" by herbalists, manufacturers of cosmetic products, etc. So which occurrences should be "Aloe vera" and which should be "aloe vera"? I did look at sorting it out once, but gave up. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:05, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"out of step with Wikipedia generally by making scientific names the first choice for article titles" - the problem with not using the scientific names is which of the common names do you use? In the Dipterocarps - some people try to force a common name into the article - not understanding that a) it is a trade name that covers a wide range of similar species or b) only used in part of the species range Sepilok2007 (talk) 09:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Peter, do you have rules that go with that idea? For instance in Rhodendenron article it seems to be interchanged randomly. When would you use lower-case/non-italics there? You were a staunch defender of italic typography not being percieved as optional in the binomial nomenclature discussion, so there must be grammer or style rules you are following to get around that idea? Do you percieve the recommendations in the nomenclature codes to be intended for only scientific use, or that they have separate recommendations for another "common name" category? Do you think those recommendations were not written for something like Wikipedia, which aspires to a scholarly standard? --Tom Hulse (talk) 09:57, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, if I'm following correctly, there are two and only two alternatives: use the word as a generic name, capitalized and italicized, e.g. Rhododendron, or use it as a common name, lower-case and not italicized, e.g. rhododendron. I'm guessing we all agree that in the case of non-equivalence of the names (either total, as in Pelargonium, or partial, as in an example in the monocots that I'm not remembering now, where only one species is still in the genus, but it is used as a common name for the rest that used to be, it needs to be completely explicit and consistent, and deviation should be automatically corrected.
But, assuming that all rhododendrons are in the genus Rhododendron, should we allow a mix of the terms in an article, or insist on one or the other? Rhododendron (the common name) has the advantage of easy use in colloquial English (for plurals and such). But the article Rhododendron is about the genus; it has a taxobox and the word is italicized both in the title and in the first sentence. So it might seem most appropriate to use Rhododendron. But if we look at Digitaria, which has the consistent common name of crabgrass, the common name is used commonly throughout the article, so maybe we shouldn't penalize Rhododendron for the spelling of its common name.--Curtis Clark (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I agree those are the two options, Curtis. Perhaps there is a different way to look at it than saying that Rhododendron is the genus name but rhododendron is the common name. Another way to see it is there is no common name, and instead, people just "commonly" use the generic name willy-nilly, with many variations on typography (any combination of capitals, italics, plurals). If we try to say that Wikipedia editors can just loose the italics & capitalization on any plant where the generic name is the most commonly used name, at random, mixed in the article wherever they wish, then we would virtually invalidate the use of italics, since we could say that most generic plant names are also the common name. Plants like Weigela, Brugmansia, and Amorphophallus all have generic names as their most common name. And then Rhizanthes, Pogonophora, and Tetrastigma all have no common name at all, other than their generic name. If we allow rhododendron lower-case and non-italicized, then we must allow it for all six of these other genera, and a myriad similar genera.
I can see a case being made for plurals, e.g. "rhododendrons". I disagree, but could at least understand it. I can't understand at all though the use of just "rhododendron", as this would seem to open up the floodgates for invalidating our standardard typography on the majority of plant articles. --Tom Hulse (talk) 22:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about rhododendrons (they've never been common in cultivation anywhere I've lived), but, growing up in Oklahoma, I frequently encountered cannas. Canna was in every sense a vernacular name, and it wasn't until I became a botanist that I learned they were in the genus Canna. I know there are many biologists who would like to regulate "common" names (IOC bird names are the culmination of that), but I've always found a value to vernacular names. To me, writing "canna" is using a vernacular name, not bad typography of the genus. I know they can only be distinguished in context, and often not even then, but if we start willy-nilly converting canna to Canna, not for consistency but because the former is somehow "wrong", and especially without regard to the sources, we're being more prescriptive than most Wikipedians would accept.--Curtis Clark (talk) 00:57, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that some genus names (including this one) have been absorbed into common useage and taken on a life of their own, in a similar fashion to generic trademarks. One caution with the common name "rhododendron", however, is that it is often used in a context that is not inclusive of the whole genus.[1]--Melburnian (talk) 01:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I remembered additional complexity with Rhododendron, and that's it--in fact, the only members of the genus that people commonly grew in Oklahoma were the azaleas, hence my unfamiliarity with "rhododendron" in the vernacular sense. So it would seem that the specific article should be regularized to the capitalized and italicized generic name, independent of whether we find any general principles here.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I see it the same way Curtis does; "Rhododendron is the genus name but rhododendron is the common name." Sometimes both the Latin and the common name refer to exactly the same thing, sometimes they don't (Sequoia/sequoia). Where the two are the same, I don't think we can demand that only one be used in an article unless we want to insist that only scientific names or only common names can ever be used in an article. Tdslk (talk) 06:43, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tdslk,it appears a logical fallacy to me to claim they are separate categories, but then also say they refer to the same thing and are spelled alike. If they refer to the same thing, then they are the same thing.
I'm glad someone mentioned "willy-nilly", since that implies an illogical randomness. What is the logic behind the random way Rhododendron/rododendron is used in the Rhododendron article? Even though it is possible, sometimes, as Melburnian pointed out, to have different meanings (subgenus etc.); those would also still get italics. Throughout the article there is mainly one meaning referring to the same group of plants, and the difference in the way the typography is used is arbitrary and "willy-nilly".  :)
Instead of convincing ourselves it just sounds better to our ear on the most extreme example in our favor, let's try making a sentence(s) that explains exactly why it is ok for our article to interchage between the two styles; then try applying the same rationalization to Weigela, Tetrastigma, the others I mentioned above, and thousands of other articles. How do you draw the line to include the Rhododendron that may be common in your area, but not include the Brugmansia that may be more common in someone else's area? How, specifically, do you avoid invalidating the current Wikipedia convention used in thousands of plant articles? I could go in most any nursery in the world that carries Brugmansia, and the vast majority will have that as the only name on the tag, and it is alphabetized in all the plant books as "Brugmansia"; so that makes it a "common" name by your standards. Should I go to the Brugmansia article right now and remove the italics randomly from about half the occurences, so it is like the Rhododendron article? --Tom Hulse (talk) 08:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the common name for Brugmansia species in the UK seems to be either "daturas" (i.e. using the old scientific name) or "angels' trumpets". I think that "Brugmansia" is only used by those who would be comfortable with scientific names. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:53, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As noted above, Rhododendron is not a straightforward case, and the current version of the article is wrong in the way it uses the two forms, since the common use of "rhododendron" (at least in the UK) contrasts with "azalea", whereas the article has "rhododendron" meaning the genus.

I think this is actually part of a more complex issue, namely how to handle taxa where complete coverage involves both botanical and non-botanical (gardening, food, etc.) aspects. Consider Daylily (which is under the common name rather than Hemerocallis). The article is well out of line with what would be expected for a WP:PLANTS genus article. I have edited it a bit in the past, e.g. to make the species list consistent with modern names, but it's clear that editors interested in daylilies who regularly add material have a very different conception of what the article should contain than I do. I'm beginning to wonder if for taxa with strong non-botanical aspects there shouldn't be two articles. So there would be a "genus article" at "Hemerocallis" and a "gardening article" at "Daylily".

The only point I was trying to make earlier is that those of us whose interest is strongly botanical should be careful not to make our articles inaccessible to those whose interests are different, but who still want to use Wikipedia as a source of information. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just came across a good example of how the two forms of a genus name can be used. It's from the Tulip article:
  • "Scientifically, the genus Tulipa was traditionally divided into two sections ..."
  • "In horticulture, tulips are divided up into fifteen groups ..."
It seems to me that the two forms, "Tulipa" and "tulips" are used absolutely appropriately in these two extracts. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is unfortunately a poor example, since they aren't spelled the same, and so don't apply to our discussion. It might not seem quite as logical to have Tulip and tulip intermingled in the same paragraph together. But I do get your point, and I know there must be many where it seems a little uncomfortable to always capitalize a generic name, but the trouble is how do you explain the circumstances when we can & can't mix the names, without completely changing the way italics are used on the majority of Wikipedia articles? The formal generic names do not only apply to the entire genus group, but also to individuals within that group, so that can't be the line.
The way you divided 'Rhododendron', to say that the common use is rhododendron to contrast to azalea, yes I agree that is a fairly common use; but here might be a good spot to discuss how we might want to differentiate between "common" and just plain old or wrong. Your common use of the two words is from the old classification of Azalea as it's own genus. Our understanding of correct classification & taxonomy changes all the time, and as an encyclopedia, we do our our best to update the articles with the most correct information. I don't think we can say that all the old versions of accepted taxonomy are to be written into our articles as though they were current & correct, just because the public hasn't fully caught up yet. I think it's our job to educate, not coddle or perpetuate the use of outdated or incorrect terms by constructing a paralell "common use" taxonomy. --Tom Hulse (talk) 17:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem for me, Tom, is that all my personal instincts agree with you. But I feel obliged to point out that Wikipedia is meant to reflect not direct. Since I've spent my life teaching, naturally I think teaching a good thing to do, but we need to observe WP:NOTCASE (including points 6 and 8). Peter coxhead (talk) 10:33, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To the best of my knowledge, Canna and canna refer to the same group, so I'll use that as the example to clarify my thinking. Even though it would not be inaccurate to use both Canna and canna in the same article, consistency would suggest that only one or the other be used. I can't think of a good counterargument. (The article currently uses Canna, capitalized but not italicized; I think this should be corrected one way or the other.)--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the article also uses "marantas", "heliconias", and "strelitzias". [Now fixed by User:Lavateraguy.] I agree that it is inconsistent and I propose to edit it to remove the use of "Canna". Peter coxhead (talk) 10:33, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh... My decision to edit this article was a mistake, I now think. The article and the associated "List of Canna ..." articles are all rather problematic. They are very much written from the point of view of a gardening encyclopedia; their use of scientific and even cultivar names is often questionable; some of the written material violates WP:NOTHOW; List of Canna cultivars seems to be largely a gallery. I'll happily leave any further changes to others. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:21, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No good deed goes unpunished.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see lots of plant articles that switch back and forth between the common and scientific names for an organism. The inconsistency can be distracting, but I generally don't try to edit this out, since I'm not sure if I should change things to the common name or the Latin name. Is there a standard Wikipedia policy on preferring common or scientific names? Tdslk (talk) 01:53, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is a Wikipedia policy preferring common names in general, and a local-consensus guideline here preferring scientific names for titles. My assumption is that that means a preference for using scientific names in the text as well. If an article is going to talk about "Scots pine" throughout, then that should logically be the article's title, rather than "Pinus sylvestris"; conversely, if the title is "Pinus sylvestris", then the article should generally refer to it as such, and not as "Scots pine". There is also now a general consensus that, with the exception of articles on birds, all species names should appear in sentence case, whether as article titles or in the text (i.e. bird species should be in sentence case in other articles, and other species should be in title case in bird articles). Most plant species articles that are not at scientific name titles seem to be in title case (including Scots Pine, for instance). Thus, plant articles differ from the consensus elsewhere in one or two significant ways. I'm not arguing for any change, here, incidentally; I'm just trying to document the current practices. --Stemonitis (talk) 06:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the very long discussions over the case to be used for common names, I don't think it's quite as clear as Stemonitis says. Those who regularly edit the Manual of Style don't accept the exception for birds; others (including me) have argued that where there are (semi)official lists of capitalized common names for organisms (such as the BSBI list for plants in the UK and lists of lepidoptera names) this form should be followed. WP:PLANTS#Plant article naming conventions rightly says that there's no consensus in this WikiProject. But please let's not start this discussion again here; it's gone on interminably elsewhere with no meeting of minds and quite a bit of abuse.
Going back to article content, my suggestion, and it's only a suggestion, is that even if the article is at the scientific name, there's a case for using the common name in any sections devoted to uses such as horticulture or food. My core argument is that e.g. Canna clearly refers to the whole genus, whereas when someone says "cannas are heavily virus infected" they don't mean the whole genus, they mean "commonly grown cultivars of the genus Canna" and the plural English name form is less clumsy. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:48, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the logic behind that, Peter, but will it be clear to readers that such a distinction is being made? If we're using "canna" to mean Canna in horticulture, and "Canna" to mean the genus, will anyone realise that? The article Canna (plant) doesn't openly acknowledge "canna" as a common name (although I suppose "canna lily" might be close enough). I think if you're going to use a different meaning, it's as well to clarify what that meaning is. In this instance, the fact that "canna" is only used in the cultivation section may be enough to signal a change of meaning, but it would be better if it were explicit. If it is only the cultivated ones that are (known to be) susceptible, then why not say "Cultivated cannas are heavily virus infected" instead? --Stemonitis (talk) 07:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So are you happy with the use of "cannas", i.e. lowercase non-italicized plural of a genus name, as opposed to something like "Cultivars of Canna are heavily virus infected"? Peter coxhead (talk) 10:59, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking for myself, I would always try to rephrase it to use the scientific name, but then I'm from a scientific background, and I prefer to use scientific names generally. (I think we all agree that "Cannas" is unacceptable; I've seen it attempted.) It also allows greater precision: when you say "cannas are ...", do you mean different species are, or that different individuals are? "Consider the lilies of the field" probably shouldn't be changed to "Consider the Lilium species of the field"! I think for Wikipedia's purposes, writing "cannas" is probably acceptable in many cases, but I'm not clear on what those cases might be. --Stemonitis (talk) 11:20, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Having posted the original query of this thread and read the discussion so far, my own thoughts are that I agree with Tom Hulse that in these instances the genus name is used as the common name, and hence should be capitalised and italicised throughout an article. To switch between forms within the same article is I think more confusing for general readers than for them to be presented with scientific notation. Although I understand and appreciate Peter's rationale for using common names in sections pertaining to horticulture and food etc, I think such a position only produces clarity when the common name is different to the genus name. As an encyclopedia I think clarity of information is more important than avoiding clumsiness. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:59, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How would you handle a situation where the common name refers to a group that is not identical to the genus, for example rhododendron vs. Rhododendron?--Curtis Clark (talk) 01:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although I floated an alternative view, I'm quite happy to agree with others here. (However, I think we will need to be aware that editors outside this WikiProject may not agree.) I think it's worth trying to add something to the project page. It seems that the consensus is that if the common name is the same as the genus, it should not be used, at least in the singular. Thus e.g. Canna should always be used instead of "canna". I'm not quite sure what the view is about plurals. Should e.g. "cannas" always be replaced by "species of Canna" or "cultivars of Canna" or whatever is appropriate in context? (See also my question to Stemonitis above.) Peter coxhead (talk) 10:59, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would support such a statement on the project page (though seeing as the above discussion has produced a certain amount of debate, it might be courteous to wait if any objections or questions arise from project members in different time zones?). As regards to plurals, I agree with Stemonitis that avoiding such common name notation (e.g. "cannas") actually can produce greater precision, as the sentence has to be constructed carefully to express exactly what is meant (e.g. "Cultivars of Canna indica..."). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:21, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Curtis, you asked how we would handle a situation where the common name refers to a group that is not identical to the genus, like rhododendron vs. Rhododendron. I touched on that above. There are not two groups there, just one. What you are thinking of as a separate group is actually just an erroneous description of old taxonomy that the public hasn't caught up with yet. Even though it is "commonly" used, that doesn't make it separate common name in any sense that Wikipedia should sanction. It's the same as Rhododendron, just outdated.
I also agree that a little more careful forming of plurals would benefit the accuracy of the articles. No matter what we do, the current illogical hodge-podge of typography in these articles like Canna & Rhododendron would really benefit from any form of consistency we could add. --Tom Hulse (talk) 06:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that we should change all references to "azalea" to "rhododendron"? That seems a bit extreme to me. So far as I'm aware, "azalea" is still the most common name for certain species. While I respect your desire to impose scientific order to common names, I think Wikipedia should be written to reflect language as it is used, not as we might wish it to be. Tdslk (talk) 07:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think Tom is demonstrably wrong in this case. The RHS is the International Registrar for cultivar names of Rhododendron. Under the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (ICNCP), an International Cultivar Registration Authority has responsibility for cultivar and group names. The International Rhododendron Register and Checklist uses common names such as "azalea", "azaleodendron" and "rhododendron", distinct from the genus name Rhododendron (see e.g. Supplement 6, p. 2). So any article discussing cultivars of Rhododendron will at least have to mention, and I suspect also use, these common names.
The ICNCP also allows the use of a combination of common name + cultivar name (e.g. potato 'Red Craigs Royal', Ex. 6, p. 7). However Article 21.1 does require common names to be "unambiguous" so it could be argued that although Rhododendron 'Amber Peach' is classified as a "rhododendron" (marked by "(r)" in the list) rather than as an "azalea", the name rhododendron 'Amber Peach' is not valid under the ICNCP, although azalea 'Adyn' might be, given that Azalea is no longer used as a genus name (and when it was it meant the same as "azalea"). Peter coxhead (talk) 09:42, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Tdslk that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive, and Peter as usual brings in actual data to address the point. But underlying all this is the clear sense that a common name spelled the same as a genus in current use has an additional set of hurdles (no one seems to hold godetia or azalea to a higher standard). The obvious reason is the potential for confusion. IMO (and it's only an opinion, subject to change), all other reasons are specious, since they don't apply to other common names not spelled the same. So it seems to me that any guidance needs to focus on the reduction of confusion first, perhaps the promotion of consistency second, and there is no #3.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Peter that's great information, thank you for posting it! I didn't know they had formalized cultivar groups, that is definately something our article should discuss. In looking at your link though, it is slightly different there than you proposed. If you look carefully at that legend/key on that page, and compare it to the way in which lowercase "rhododendron" is used throughout, it is apparent that the legend is just a simple memory aid to quickly identify the meaning of that letter abbreviation for each entry. It's discussed in more depth in the actual 2004 Checklist, not just the update you linked to. The actual names of the cultivar groups used at your link are not just azeala or rhododendron, but "Elipidote rhododendron", "Lepidote rhododendron", "Evergreen azalea", "Deciduous azalea", etc. They have correctly capitalized the first letter, but incorrectly missed the required capital for the first letter in the second word as well. So yes I still contend that just azalea or rhododenron by itself is not a "common name", but just old, wrong, classification that the public just hasn't caught up with yet. Massive common use is irrelevant, even to Wikipedia in this case, otherwise we could never correct mistakes in taxonomy and must keep all the old, wrong classifications on equal standing in the articles with newer correct ones. It would be a rather shabby encylopedia that actually confused people into thinking Azalea was still separate from Rhododendron, just because lots of other people commonly still do.
Curtis I agree that everything here should center around removing confusion (like changing our current terribly confused article). All of the provisions in the ICN and the ICNCP are intended to do exactly that. That is the reason a genus is capitalized & italicized, a species is lower case and italisized, and cultivar groups are all capitalized and non-italicized. They very intentionaly have different formats to help remove confusion. So if we incorrectly use just rhododendron, then it's open to question whether we mean just a few of the subgenera of Rhododendron or we intend the whole genus. That's the confusion, and that's why the codes are very helpful to an encyclopedia. --Tom Hulse (talk) 22:48, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tdslk, you asked if I thought we should change all references of "azalea" to "rhododendron". No, not all, but many of them need to be changed to clarify what they are talking about. There is no such group as azalea any more. I don't mean just the name, but the actual plants; there is no logical group that corresponds to that name. It has been known for a long time and proved with DNA in 2004 by Goetsch et al.(cited, referenced, and verified by many authors since then). The large-leaved rhodies (but not the small-leaved) are monophyletic with the deciduous azaleas (but not the evergreen ones). So when you say "azalea" which of the species are you talking about? It's more unecessary confusion. It makes sense to still use the word in the sense of explaining the historical taxonomy in the article, or when it's part of a larger common name (the Florida azalea) referencing one species or cultivar only, not the whole group; but yes, generally we need to use the current understanding that there is no such thing as an "azalea". --Tom Hulse (talk) 00:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whoa now. I haven't followed this closely enough to have a really strong opinion on this specific issue, but I disagree with your contention that a paraphyletic group is of necessity "no logical group". Just because a distinctive, readily observable character is shown to be homoplasious does not mean that a grouping around that character loses all value; it only does so for purposes of taxonomy and evolutionary history. In a strict application of your philosophy, we should be deleting pitcher plant, because the article concerns itself with a paraphyletic group. But there are clearly contexts in which it makes sense to talk about those shared characters, even if they've independently involved, and I expect that to be the case for other groups as well. Choess (talk) 03:16, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, absolutely. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree too. I don't have a problem with all paraphyletic groups, just names posing as a group that are really nothing more than an outdated usage of a genus name, with only typography changes to claim their old use is a now a "common name". We can argue that pitcher plants have value as a group, but not azalea; it is just an old genus name with nothing logical there. --Tom Hulse (talk) 17:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But that gets us back to common names again. I don't think any of us is arguing that we should avoid common names, but common names that are identical to generic names still are a point of contention. Sure, there's such a thing as an azalea, since people still use the term. but we seem to be stuck using typography as the only way of signaling what we're talking about. I'd make a proposal, but there doesn't even seem to be the beginning of a consensus.--Curtis Clark (talk) 02:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since a primary purpose of Wikipedia is to be helpful to nonspecialists, there may be value in the viewpoint of a layman (in this area) who has happened to stumble on this conversation.

The viewpoint of Tom Hulse is unacceptable. There is such a group as azaleas. As is clearly noted in the Azalea article, they are not rhododendrons. The inclusion of both groups in the genus Rhododendron is an interesting fact, but it does not imply that the common usage represents an "old, wrong, classification that the public just hasn't caught up with yet." We in the public, who determine the meanings of these terms in most contexts, may someday come to use them differently; there is no sense, however, in which we are behind, no sense in which such a shift would be a matter of catching up. "Massive common use" is decisive, not irrelevant. We laypersons need not acknowledge the botanical cognoscenti as stewards of meaning whenever plants are under discussion.

The article Canna (plant), far from exhibiting an "illogical hodge-podge of typography," is a good example of how things ought to be done. Though the first two sentences of the lead do not make the point explicitly, they subtly make clear, in the very act of introducing the subject, that the relevant sequence of letters is used both in scientific and in ordinary language. Admittedly, the article is not entirely consistent in its use of "canna" rather than "Canna"; still, "canna" is mostly used in the nonscientific sections on horticulture and on the uses of the plant while "Canna" is used elsewhere. Peter M. Brown (talk) 20:47, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

During and after the above discussion, the article Canna (plant) has been edited considerably and is much improved, no longer an illogical hodge-podge. Kudos to the editors involved, particularly to Peter coxhead for extensively cleaning up the use of "Canna"! Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Peter c. has done an extensive and valuable job cleaning up Canna (plant), and I certainly join you in applauding his efforts. I am unhappy, though, with his total avoidance of the term "canna", singular. If the plural "cannas" is legitimate, then surely the singular is as well. I am arguing that limitations on ordinary-language usage are insensitive to what botanists do in naming genera; if so, then "canna" is on a par with "rose" and is subject to no additional syntactical restrictions.
The Canna (plant) text, prior to Peter's updates, had the sentence
The canna rhizome is rich in starch, and it has many uses in agriculture
which Peter changed to
The rhizome of cannas is rich in starch, and it has many uses in agriculture.
I submit that the revised version is no better. (Actually, it is worse, because different canna plants do not have one and the same rhizome.) The Rose article contains the sentence
The aggregate fruit of the rose is a berry-like structure called a rose hip.
Just as "the rose" is surely unobjectionable here, so also there is no problem with the unrevised statement about the canna rhizome. Peter M. Brown (talk) 02:20, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that Peter C. has made some great improvements to the article, but it still has a long way to go. Peter Brown, as a layman, I believe you might be working on some assumptions that don't hold up on closer scrutiny; and perhaps you're unaware of the massive confusion that the proper & internationally-agreed-to use of these names prevents. For instance, in the Canna (plant) article, consider the name's use in the Botany & Distribution sections near the top. Imagine that we were all-knowing and could accurately say there are exactly 1 million individual Canna plants earth wide, spread out over many species & hybrids. Now when the article uses 3 different names (Canna, Canna, canna), that are only separated by typography, exactly which of those 1 million earth wide plants applies to each of these 3 names that you claim are different? All of them apply to all the plants. There is no reliable source that differentiates the meanings of these 3 different names. There is no separate group, there is no separate meaning, they are the same thing. There is just common sloppy ways of writing the same exact name, and then there is the correct way befitting an encyclopedia, per reliable sources. The ICN Code carries infinitely more weight in deciding these than "common use" in this instance because these are Latin names created under a specific framework that people in all aspects related to plants have agreed to follow, unlike "rose", which was created under a common-use framework and has nothing to do with the Code of Nomenclature. People who are interested in plants earthwide have agreed to follow the rules of that framework. It's similar to the spelling of a name in a Biography of a living person here on Wikipedia. If the whole world thought George Clooney's name was spelled "Cluney", and used it widely that way, it still doesn't mean that "common use" would be relevant there; the article title would still use the correct name despite any level of common use. Another example in plants is when it was realized that the correct name for angel trumpet plants was Brugmansia, and not the name Datura that was very widely used commonly by nearly everyone. Because of the internationally-agreed-on framework that these names were created under, Brugmansia was eventually used correctly by everyone (We’re half way there with Azalea). Peter would you have had us ignore what you call the "cognoscenti" and preserve the article title at Datura, even though it was known to be wrong, just because of common use? Perhaps you are unaware that Wikipedia plant article titles are changed all the time as consensus is reached in the scientific literature, but very importantly, long before common use has caught up. This is important, since if we were to wait for common use to catch up, then we would be fostering/helping the incorrect use of these names. It is already a policy here at Wikipedia that common use does not rule on plant names, and these changes are made all the time to follow current scientific consensus. "Rose" is a great example of a true common name, unlike "canna", which is a latin genus name that merely has inferior typography, not a different name with a different meaning from Canna at all. I'm also glad you brought up Azalea, since the article is unfortunately very misleading to the public, because laymen like you assume that there is a single, contiguous, related group behind that name. Science has proven that wrong, and reliable sources reflect that by not incorrectly using the name anymore. The name is a latin genus name created under a framework that now says the name is misleading and the plants should be referred to differently. To recklessly use Azalea, Azalea, or azalea in an encylopedia to refer to a group of plants is misleading and reflects a lack of understanding of the actual real plants. It is just an idea (a false one), not a real single group of plants. There is no real group there. Even if you were to use it, it would be Azalea, not azalea. The two are the same name, same meaning, with merely different typography. --Tom Hulse (talk) 05:42, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On Canna, Canna, and canna:
  • Some people have Canna as a surname; that is the only appropriate use. Peter C. was quite right in eliminating it from Canna (plant).
  • Canna is a genus.
  • A canna is a plant.
The terms do differ in meaning. They are not "all the same thing".
On Clooney and "Cluney":
  • I do not claim that common usage always determines meaning. Proper names are one of the exceptions. Clooney was born in the United States, has been a lifelong resident, and has never legally changed his name. In such a case, one's birth certificate is definitive. The names of plant taxa are another exception; they are regulated by the ICN. In either case, capitalization is obligatory. The exceptions do not apply to the canna, which is a plant, not a person or a genus. The same is true of the rose. The meanings of "canna" and "rose" are determined by popular use.
"It is already a policy here at Wikipedia that common use does not rule on plant names, and these changes are made all the time to follow current scientific consensus."
  • If the titles are italicized then they refer to genera and their use is dictated by the ICN. Changes in the ICN code do need to be reflected in Wikipedia.
With reference to Azalea, ". . .the article is unfortunately very misleading to the public, because laymen like you assume that there is a single, contiguous, related group behind that name."
  • It's not likely that many people who use the term "azalea" make any assumptions about contiguity. And "related" is a relative term; surely, azaleas are more closely related to each other than they are to dandelions?
"There is no real group there. Even if you were to use it, it would be Azalea, not azalea. The two are the same name, same meaning, with merely different typography."
  • The people in The Azalea Society of America would be very surprised to learn that the objects of their concern did not exist! There are such things as azaleas; considered all together, they are a group. Further, "Azalea" and "azalea" are not the same name with the same meaning; the first has become meaningless if indeed the ICN has rejected it, while the other refers to a popular garden plant.
As Tdslk notes above, Wikipedia should be written to reflect language as it is used, not as we might wish it to be. Peter M. Brown (talk) 18:48, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Peter Brown, thanks for providing a layperson's perspective on this issue! I agree with Tom that Wikipedia should always use the most up-to-date scientific names for organisms, but I do think that common names should reflect popular usage. It might help to see this as an opportunity to educate. People will continue to come to Wikipedia wanting to learn about "azaleas". If the name is never used, they will just leave confused, and go look for another source that may be full of outdated information. I think the best solution is to continue to have an article for azaleas, but make sure that we explain what taxonomists have learned about them. The azalea article as it currently stands doesn't do a good job of this. There should definitely be something there along the lines of:
Recent genetic research has shown that species commonly called "azaleas" are not an evolutionarily distinct group. Rather, they are polyphyletic, that is, they are composed of two groups that are not more closely related to each other than to other organisms, in this case, some species of rhododendrons. For this reason, the old genus name Azalea is no longer used by scientists, who now place all azaleas in genus Rhododendron. Tdslk (talk) 19:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I like your sentence, Tdslk, it's a fair start to the massive changes needed at the Azalea article.
Peter, the Azalea Society is unfortunately a dinosaur of times gone by. The only thing that formerly held together deciduous and evergreen Azalea species was Linnaeus' mistaken grouping of them into one genus, and then common peoples' resulting assumption that they were closely related. They don't have similar growing requirements that would group them any more together than other Rhododendron. I don't mean just taxonomically group them; there is nothing that groups them closer than all rhodies, once their false genetic relation was exposed by Goetsch et al. It was the weakest possible link that held these dissimilar plants into one group in the first place, and now it's gone. There is no true basis for a grouping by common people or by scientists. Regarding your idea that "azalea" refers to a common garden plant, you're not getting the point. Which garden plants? Specifically? The more specific you get, the more you realize that to use the name, especially after newer changes in formal nomenclature, does nothing but add confusion... confusion that is certainly not worthy of an encyclopedia.

On your contention that Canna is a genus, but canna is only a plant, I don't know if you realize that for it to be true you would be saying that the ICN as a code is expressly restricted to NEVER apply to individual plants. You need the Code to limit itself to support your view. Is that what the Code says about itself? Does the Code say it is only for groups of plants, and if you just change the typography of the same word you get a separate "common" nomenclature applying to plants themselves? No, it specifically says it is for naming plants, and goes farther on this typogrophy question to say:

As in the previous edition, scientific names under the jurisdiction of the Code, irrespective of rank, are consistently printed in italic type. The Code sets no binding standard in this respect, as typography is a matter of editorial style and tradition not of nomenclature.

— Preface, Vienna Code

It is telling us that just changing the typography does not change the meaning of a name; it is specifically contradicting the scenario you propose. Typography does not change the meaning of a name, per this very reliable source. Azalea is no different than azalea. --Tom Hulse (talk) 09:56, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've done a bit of Googling. Azaleas have been classified in Rhododendron since 1834. 178 years, and gardeners are still distinguishing! Isn't it about time you folks gave up? Only 100 years after Linnaeus, the view that whales are mammals commanded general acceptance.
There is nothing that groups azaleas closer than all rhododendrons? The same source distinguishes them by the number of stamens. The Azalea article distinguishes them by the number of blossoms per stem. Neither provides rigid necessary and sufficient conditions, but these are not required outside of the sciences; as long as it doesn't generally lead to misunderstandings, some fuzziness is acceptable in lay terminology. If this linguistic practice did "nothing but add confusion", it would quickly be abandoned. It doesn't, though, and—for 178 years—it hasn't been.
You ask which garden plants, specifically? The Azalea article has the answer. Those in the subgenera Tsutsuji and Pentanthera.
Of course the ICN terms can apply to individual plants. Every canna is in the genus Canna.
You note that the ICN code does not prescribe typography. I do not need the code to limit itself to support my view, since tradition limits things adequately. Tradition antedating the ICN is pretty unambiguous: generic names are to be capitalized and italicized. With little effort, I found this passage from 1799 on Google Scholar:
The Canna indica, a native of both the Indies, is a plant greatly admired for its beauty and foliage. . . .
Usage needs to adhere both to tradition and to the dictates of the ICN. Peter M. Brown (talk) 16:04, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Peter, your 178 years is a misperception of their real history. That whole long time they were thought to be a monophyletic group; still virtually as Linnaeus grouped them, with only the technicality of being nested as within Rhododendron instead of next to it. It wasn't until Goetsch et al. in 2005 that their very tenuous genetic link (the only thing justifying thinking of them as Azalea for 171 years) was exposed as bogus. For grouping Azalea, the one-bloom-per-stem idea is erroneous and unsourced, from a terrible article, that was challenged with a "citation needed" tag. For your other idea about number of stamens (the rule that doesn't hold true), you can't claim it is ok to have "fuzziness" in lay terminology here, since number of stamens is strictly a concern of persons with a scientific level of interest; it has nothing to do with "lay terminology" (what is that, and where do you find the rules for it?). When I asked you to be specific, I'm glad you quoted the outdated info at the Azalea article, since it highlights the confusion. Tsutsuji has been subsumed into Azaleastrum; and Pentanthera has been hacked to pieces, most of it going into Hymenanthes to be combined with the elepidote rhodies and some to Azaleastrum. Since a deciduous Azalea has more in common with an elepidote Rhododenron than with an evergreen Azalea, will you start calling the elepidotes "azalea" also? Or perhaps only call the plants inside of Azaleastrum now as "azalea" because of the obviously related name? Or just keep calling the same old relatively unrelated plants as "azalea", even though nothing logical links them as a group? So there are many different interpretations of what you could mean by "azalea". It's a perfect example of why the botanical code exists, to remove confusion, and why it should be used at an encyclopedic level. I did not say that the Code merely "does not prescribe typography", rather it expressly excludes typography from nomenclature. That means that changing italics & capitals cannot change the meaning of the name into a parallel system of nomenclature as you propose. If a Latin plant name is spelled the same, then no matter how you capitalize it, it IS the same. I'm glad you included an example you reference as tradition where Canna is being used correctly.  :) --Tom Hulse (talk) 08:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC) [reply]

Thank you for the historical information. I was certainly unaware of it. Clearly, I should ignore the Azalea article until someone knowledgeable revises it. I shall treat the About.com article similarly; I have other reasons for considering About.com an unreliable source.
As I am not a serious gardener, I cannot rely on my contacts to give me a good feel for the lay designation of the term "azalea". I see no reason, however, not to consider the Azalea Society of America, which is certainly not a scientific organization, to be representative. No dinosaur, they seem to be a lively group; their website reports 75,090 hits in the six months December 2011 through May, 2012 and announces a major convention for April, 2013. Their page http://www.azaleas.org/index.pl/azaleas.html provides three features that generally (though not invariably) distinguish rhododendrons from azaleas, one of which does involve the count of stamens; this is not "strictly a concern of persons with a scientific level of interest" but a possible matter of interest to the society's members.
Different English-speaking groups may indeed have different interpretations of "azalea", including some of those you list. If that is true, the new Azalea article should mention the fact, just as the Milkshake article notes that usage in New England, where I live, differs from that in the rest of the United States. Though this can inconvenience someone visiting New England from elsewhere in the country, the matter is not sufficiently serious to warrant a major campaign for uniformity. I suggest that ambiguity in "azalea" is also not a pressing matter.
Typography cannot be excluded from nomenclature, and I hope that the ICN does not attempt to do so. Merriam-Webster defines "nomenclature" as "a system or set of names, designations, or symbols used by a person or group." A different symbol set thus means a different nomenclature. Whenever different typographical styles convey different information, the typographical variants are different symbols; in a mathematical formula, for example, would be a symbol different from a.
In the present context, whether text is italicized or not does convey information, so italicization does produce different symbols and is therefore a matter of nomenclature. If I look up "Aloe" on Wikipedia, I will find the title italicized; this tells me, before I even start reading the article, that Aloe is a genus recognized by botanists. If I look up "Coconut" I will not find the italics; though not decisive, this is informative in providing evidence that Coconut is not a recognized genus. Peter M. Brown (talk) 18:48, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Azalea Society is not a dinosaur in their lack of membership, but rather in their outdated, confusing use of a society name that does not accurately describe the types of plants they like to grow. I seriously doubt that their reason for having a separate society has anything to do with stamen numbers. Honestly now Peter, they don't care about that. A better name for them might be something like The Hymenanthes and Azaleastrum Society
The ICN does not "attempt" to exclude typography from nomenclature, but rather, plainly notes the fact that it is already excluded. They define botanical nomenclature, and carry the power to alter or change it based on international agreement. On your Math example, that is a combination of nomenclature & typography. Not everything that conveys information is nomenclature. Regardless, I didn't think I had to specify, on this page here, that we are speaking of botanical nomenclature. You did not quote Merriam's first definition of nomenclature, and should have actually used their third definition, the one speaking of biological nomenclature, and the only one relevant to our discussion here.
I actually like your example of Aloe and coconut, since coconut, like hazelnut or car or rock, is not a plant. A more relevant challenge might be comparing Aloe the plant to aloe, the popular jelly-like product of the plant. I could concede the lowercase "aloe" for a case like this where the object being named is truly a different object altogether, not a plant, and not just a mistaken, older taxonomy. --Tom Hulse (talk) 02:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Having been on a WikiBreak, I was interested to catch up with the discussion on this topic. I would only add two points:
  • Both the ICN and the ICNCP should be followed in Wikipedia, as far as possible. Thus, the use of the term "azalea", for example, is legitimized by the ICNCP (at least as part of a cultivar group name). It seems to me that there is a slight "botanical bias" in WP:PLANTS, but the horticultural codes and usages need to be respected too.
  • Above all, clarity for readers should be our aim, rather than over-respecting the views of editors (and I am as guilty as anyone, if not more so, in being pedantic over codes of nomenclature, etc.). So I would support avoiding the parallel use of terms like, for example, "Canna" and the uncapitalized "canna", at least in the same section. Yes, logically if "cannas" is ok, so is "canna", but in terms of clarity to readers I suggest they are different.
Peter coxhead (talk) 08:54, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome back, Peter coxhead! You have been missed.
Your consistent interest in this thread has been to avoid confusion. If confusion is is a danger, there need to be at least two things to be confused. This differs from the view of Tom Hulse, who has argued that, e.g., "Azalea" and "azalea" have the same meaning; that they are only one thing. I concur with your view but have had little success in convincing Tom. Hopefully, our debate will at least be helpful in setting out contrary positions for other readers of this thread to consider.
The word "aloe" has been around for a long time. The Oxford English Dictionary quotes a 1551 use, "The nature of the herbe Aloe is to hele woundes." Aloe was first used as a taxonomic term for a genus by Linnaeus in 1753. It is worth noting that Linnaeus published only in Latin, suggesting that he had little interest in reforming the botanical or zoological terminology of the cooks at Uppsala University. Subsequent writers, who did write in the vernacular, capitalized and italicized Aloe, thus avoiding confusion between the formal botanical use and that of the general public. They were not seizing control of a term that had been in the public domain for centuries but rather coining a typographically similar term for their own use.
Professional botanists, like any community, have a perfect right to adopt particular forms of language that they find useful in communicating among themselves. What I am troubled about, and what moved me to start contributing to this thread, is a mindset that may be called linguistic imperialism: the notion that the botanical elite has a right to insist that the public use language in accordance with norms that the elite has established.
Botanists may attempt to persuade, of course. The growing attention to formal classification among writers of seed and bulb catalogs, who need to organize their offerings somehow, may eventually result in widespread adoption of these categories. If so, however, this will be a gradual process; so long as laypersons can communicate adequately, there is no reason why they should conform to the standards that botanists use in professional articles.
Fortunately, the standard convention of capitalizing and italicizing is available for making the distinction between folk taxonomy and the more formal kind. As you point out in your latest comment, though, it is not reader-friendly to mix the usages; wherever possible "canna" and "Canna" should not be used in the same Wikipedia section. A section should be consistent with one of the traditions; it cannot be consistent with both. I do disagree on details, though, feeling that a section concerned with phylogenetic matters should only use "Canna" while one with a culinary or gardening focus can and should use "canna" and "cannas". Thus, if it is decided that the section Canna (plant)#Distribution is to use the formal terminology, the second paragraph should not start
Although all cannas are native to the New World. . . .
but rather
Although Canna is native to the New World. . . .
You seem to ambivalent about the use of singular terms like "rhododendron". On the one hand, you say that if "the common name is the same as the genus, it should not be used", but you also wrote:
In an article it is sometimes appropriate to write "Rhododendron" or "species of Rhododendron" and sometimes appropriate to write "rhododendron" or "rhododendrons". It depends on the context.
I encourage the latter view, which is also implicit in your latest comment. As lay taxonomy has no problem with "rhododendron", there is no reason not to use the term in a section that follows the nontechnical pattern.
Peter M. Brown (talk) 20:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Peter C., I agree that the ICNCP should also be followed, but I don't see any conflict here. The ICNCP does not sanction the use "azalea", in that form, as a cultivar group. If they did, it would be capitalized, plain type, and always carry the word "group" as part of the name, and it would have had to have been published specifically as a cultivar group. Instead though, the ICNCP (2009), in Appendix I, refers to it as "Azalea L.". I do agree with your point about clarity for our readers, and that is also the same goal (and result!) of following the codes at an encyclopedic level.
Peter B., the multiple things being confused on Azalea are the ones I listed above as three interpretations of what that word could mean, and I think you listed a fourth for your Northeast area. Your 'must have two separate things to be confused' argument is confused itself, lol, since I'm sure you're not trying to say that one of those four meanings applies to Azalea but a different one to azalea. They still mean the same thing no matter how you italicize them, per reliable sources. Do you have comparable sources that describe this phantom system of common nomenclature co-opting Latin names and then using them together in parallel with their standard scientific use? --Tom Hulse (talk) 02:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I would parse "Azalea" and "azalea" differently. One is a former genus name, and one is the common name for certain plants that, while not a true clade, are similar and share a general name. One is the purview of taxonomists, one is the purview of general usage. Do you oppose using common names for polyphyletic groups that aren't derived from Latin names (e.g. "pitcher plants" as brought up above?) If, in the in the transition from a Latin name to a common name, the spelling were to change (e.g. "Azalea" became "azalia"), would it be okay to keep using "azalia"? Tdslk (talk) 02:46, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tdslk, if you parse it that way is seems like you are saying Azalea and azalea are two different things, but really, in your definition, the two versions still apply to the exact same plants. Imagine we could line up every plant in the world that would stand behind each name... the plants are the same on both sides; so it's a distinction without a difference.
I don't oppose group names for polyphyletic groups like "pitcher plants", IF there is a real solid logical link between them, not a false misunderstanding of old taxonomy that tries to link a "group" that is not only polyphyletic, but also just plain has nothing in common more than a much larger group, as with Azalea.
I am so sorry to blather-and-run, but I won't be back for about a week. Thanks guys for a fun discussion. --Tom Hulse (talk) 04:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would sort of disagree. I wouldn't line up any plants behind "Azalea", but I would have a long, colorful line behind "azalea". That is, while the Latin name is gone, the common name still exists. 100 years ago the two groups would have been the same, but not now. Tdslk (talk) 05:24, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tom has said (8 July) that "Canna", "canna" and "cannas" all refer to the same thing. Tdslk and I would dispute that. Even if Tom were correct, though, his conclusion that they have the same meaning would not follow; sameness of reference does not entail sameness of meaning, and it is between different meanings that confusion threatens. Though "the evening star", "the morning star", and "Venus" all refer to the same thing, the meanings differ; were this not so, "The evening star is the morning star" would be equivalent to "Venus is Venus". The former, however, is a substantive empirical statement while the latter is an empty tautology. Professional philosophers have produced a large body of literature devoted to the issue of the identity of meanings. Peter M. Brown (talk) 14:35, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! Very clearly put. The statement "Cannas belong to the genus Canna" is not a tautology. So there are legitimate uses of both the non-italicized English names and the scientific name, even if it happens that at a particular time they refer to the same set of plants. After that I now think it's a matter of editorial judgement as to which form to use when and how to avoid confusing readers. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think I agree with Tdslk and the Peters. I have always maintained that a common name is a common name even if it is spelled the same as a genus, and I don't see any justification for treating it differently other than to avoid confusion--a major problem, to be sure, but a problem of clear writing rather than of nomenclature.--Curtis Clark (talk) 23:50, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Italicization of names

(Inserted a heading to make editing easier. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:20, 15 September 2012 (UTC))[reply]

This might be tedious to return to this thread after such a long time has elapsed (I'm surprised the bot hasn't archived it), but I wonder if it would be desirable for the project to express a preference for names to be italicised, where possible/appropriate? Plants which are of horticultural interest sometimes attract edits by people who have no concern (or even awareness) for the niceties of italicising the names of genera, and a real mixed bag of italicised/non-italicised can result, often with no logical basis. There are some additional points that have sprung to my mind on this issue:

  • 1) Being more scientifically precise (and italicising) is not necessarily more confusing for lay-readers; people often like to discover that there is a 'more correct' way of doing something.
  • 2) Common names that are genus names can seem acceptable to be non-italicised/pluralised etc. simply because we are familiar with them - for example "irises", "cannas", "rhododendrons", "hostas" etc., but would proponents of such presentations be comfortable if such an approach was turned around and begun to be applied to scientific names to produce things like "choisyas", "alchemillas", "crambes" etc.?
  • 3) Is there not some distinction to be made between how people use such common names in everyday speech, and how they are written in more formal usage such as an encyclopedia? For example writing "Pelargoniums are only tolerant of a few degrees of frost" is perfectly acceptable in a horticultural magazine, but does that necessarily mean that it is wrong to write "Pelargonium only tolerate a few degrees of frost" in a reference work such as Wikipedia?

I raise this question again because as a horticulturist working more on the horticultural (rather than botanical) side of things, it's a recurring theme. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:46, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think, as quite often happens in Wikipedia discussions, we never quite reached any conclusions in the preceding discussion, at least none that could be summarized on the Project page, which is a pity.
I tend not to use the non-italicized form except in the plural when the alternative seems clumsy. For example, at Roscoea#Cultivation I've just captioned an image "Roscoeas in cultivation", because the alternative would be "Some species and cultivars of Roscoea in cultivation", but this is a phrase I've already used in the text and I didn't want to keep repeating it. I think that when, e.g., "hostas" means "those species and cultivars of Hosta which are in cultivation" it's the least worst terminology.
The other problem for me is treating a genus name as plural. Thus in your example above, Pelargonium is a singular noun (as shown by its Latin ending). So, I would argue, you should have written "Pelargonium only tolerates a few degrees of frost". But this isn't really what is meant; what is meant is "Pelargonium species and cultivars only tolerate a few degrees of frost". I'd rather write "Pelargoniums only tolerate a few degrees of frost".
In summary, I think that the singular use of a genus name as a common name can always be avoided (or almost always), but the plural use in horticultural contexts is awkward to avoid. Whether there's a consensus on this is another matter! Peter coxhead (talk) 18:02, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I generally agree with Peter (on most things, actually), but here the devil is in the details, which is probably why we don't have any guidelines.--Curtis Clark (talk) 20:08, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there's a perfect answer to this issue. Switching between "Hosta" and "hosta" looks awkward, but so does trying to avoid pluralizing genus names. My preference would be to make it clear what the two terms are in the first line ("Hosta is a genus of plants commonly known as hostas..."), so that a non-specialist reader can understand why the formatting of the word might change. After that, if the worst problem with the article is that it switches between the Latin and common name, then the article is in pretty good shape for Wikipedia. Tdslk (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's a shame that it's probably quite out of the question to do as botanists used to do until not very long ago, to pluralize the Latin names: Hostae, Rubi, Pelargonia ... Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I mentioned that near the top of this discussion, but it didn't go over too well. :-) --Curtis Clark (talk) 23:57, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now that botanists have given up the requirement for a Latin diagnosis in the publication of names (shame on them), this seems an even more unlikely idea to gain consensus. (But "rubuses" would be awful!) Peter coxhead (talk) 09:31, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to everyone for replying; I was a little fearful that re-opening this thread might just incur inward groaning (maybe it has anyway...). Like Peter, I think it is a pity if long discussions just fizzle out with nothing concrete arising out of them. An advantage of producing a guideline is that it is something to refer to in future disputes that occur within the same area; it is possible to state, "this was discussed at great length before, here was the result". The suggestion of Latin plurals actually intrigues me; would that route really be out of the question? It would have the benefit of precision and elegance. I can see that objections might be raised on the grounds of inaccessibility/esoteric language etc. (though a counterargument to that is the first point I made at the start of this subsection), but in certain circumstances Latin plurals would perhaps be the best solution. Failing that, although it does involve creating an apparent truism, I quite like Tdslk's suggestion of making the distinction clear in the lead; could that be combined in a guideline with Peter's suggestion for avoiding "commonising" the genus name when it is used in the singular, and/or even for rewording to avoid plurals if that is practicable? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking over the discussion again, there does seem a general consensus that there is a difference between the singular and the plural, with most people happier about e.g. "hostas" than "hosta". I wonder if the following would be an acceptable summary to be added to the project page:

In some cases, the genus name has become the common name for a group of plants, particularly in horticultural use; e.g. "hostas", "pelargoniums", "cannas". Such uses should be given in the lead, e.g. "Hosta is a genus of plants commonly known as hostas..." Opinions differ on the use of these common names in the text of plant articles. The singular is easily confused with an incorrectly formatted genus name and so finds less acceptance. When the plural means something like "those species and cultivars of the genus which are in cultivation" its use is more acceptable, as in "Pelargoniums only tolerate a few degrees of frost" meaning "Species and cultivars of Pelargonium only tolerate a few degrees of frost".

Or is it too vague to be useful? Peter coxhead (talk) 09:45, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that it would be good to get a statement on the project page. Can "Opinions differ on the use of these common names in the text of plant articles." be deleted? As Peter said above, "rubuses" is horrible, but I think that's covered by your first sentence.
Shame on the Botanical Congress indeed (but at least they didn't take the zoological approach of allowing every language). The trouble with Latin plurals is that they aren't very regular, so it is essential to have a Latin grammar and dictionary (Lewis and Short, 1958 edition, weighs 2.68 kg), and Stearn's Botanical Latin is a big help for understanding those first two reference works. (E.g., third declension rex=>reges, corpus=>corpora.) Another problem is that it can be unclear whether a genus name is Latin, and it could even be one of those words "composed in an absolutely arbitrary manner". I would personally find it entertaining to go through and add plurals to wikipedia or wiktionary pages, but the Code of Nomenclature doesn't tell us how to form them, so it would, I think, be wrong to copy classical Latin grammar.
Of course, if we emphasize saying "Pelagonium species", we'll have the timeless battle to enforce "species" as both singular and plural forms, but that battle is there anyway (perhaps someone who knows how to run a bot can grub out any "specie" occurrences now and then, perhaps they do that already). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Latin plurals aren't very regular? My barn full of oxes, gooses, and mouses would disagree. Oh, and specie has a meaning.
The missing piece here, which was discussed at length above, is when a common name and a spelled-alike genus name refer to different groups--the potential for confusion is much higher. For my part, I think three important considerations are (1) a common name should not be penalized just because it is spelled the same as a generic name, (2) common names and spelled-alike genus names should never be mixed in an article--rather the article should settle on one or the other, and (3) in those cases where the names represent different groups in modern usage, extreme care should be taken to explain the difference to the reader. Unfortunately these considerations don't play well with using unitalicized plurals for generic names.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:57, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(Only specious "specie" occurrences should be grubbed out ...:) Where I grew up "pelargonium" was used as a common name for only part of the genus (I'm not sure which exactly, perhaps just the Regal group), it contrasted with the common name "geranium".
Do we want to recommend multiple pages called, e.g., Rhododendron (common name)? Putting that question aside, would the following be compromise phrasing to propose for the project page:
In some cases, the genus name has become the common name for a group of plants, particularly in horticultural use; e.g. "hostas", "pelargoniums", "cannas". Such uses should be given in the lead, e.g. "Hosta is a genus of plants commonly known as hostas..." The singular of one of these common names is easily confused with an incorrectly formatted genus name and should be avoided as far as possible. When the plural means something like "those species and cultivars of the genus which are in cultivation" its use is more acceptable, as in "Pelargoniums only tolerate a few degrees of frost" meaning "Species and cultivars of Pelargonium only tolerate a few degrees of frost". However, a common name and a spelled-alike genus name sometimes refer to different groups (e.g., geranium, rhododendron), which needs to be made very clear. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:42, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops! Yes, as Curtis rightly points out, "pelargoniums" is quite different from "hostas" in that "pelargoniums" is generally used to refer to only part of the genus (at least in most countries/regions). So I think that even the wording above needs a tweak or two to clarify this. Perhaps:

In some cases, the genus name has become the common name for a group of plants, particularly in a horticultural context. The common name may be used for the genus as a whole, e.g. "hostas", "cannas"; for only part of the genus, e.g. "pelargoniums", "rhododendrons" (as opposed to "azaleas"); or may not correspond to current genus boundaries at all, e.g. "geraniums". Such uses should be explained in the lead, e.g. "Hosta is a genus of plants commonly known as hostas..." The singular of one of these common names is easily confused with an incorrectly formatted genus name and should be avoided as far as possible. When the plural means something like "those species and cultivars of the genus which are in cultivation" its use is more acceptable, as in "Hostas are widely cultivated, being particularly useful in the garden as shade-tolerant plants" meaning "Species and cultivars of Hosta are ..." When a common name and a spelled-alike genus name refer to different groups this needs to be made very clear.

Comments? Peter coxhead (talk) 08:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support adding it to the project page. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:06, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Excellent summary, Peter. Tdslk (talk) 16:19, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Let's try it out for a while.--Curtis Clark (talk) 01:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support adding to guidelines. Would be good to have a result from this wall of text. --Melburnian (talk) 06:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but would it also be worth stating something about preferred use with respect to plurals? The above statement advises on preferred use with respect to names in the singular (avoid using the common name), but on plurals it is less instructive. This may be viewed as an advantage (not being too prescriptive), but I am thinking in particular about the point raised above by Peter regarding pluralising the scientific name; the example I gave of "Pelargonium only tolerate a few degrees of frost" is (now I know) incorrect, and in such instances Peter stated that he found using the plural of the common name ("Pelargoniums only tolerate a few degrees of frost") to be preferable not only to the incorrect "Pelargonium only tolerate a few degrees of frost", but also to the correct but wordy "Pelargonium species and cultivars only tolerate a few degrees of frost". At the least I think for non-botanists there should be something in the wording of the statement about avoiding use of the singular genus name as a direct plural - something which I for one was unaware of. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
[Or maybe I'm asking too much of the statement; I'm still learning about these topics, and perhaps shouldn't be expecting to have my own personal questions answered in a Project-backed statement - perhaps my personal ignorance should be corrected elsewhere?] PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:59, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think what we're trying to do here is to distinguish between a genus and a group of plants. It's the plants that only tolerate a few degrees of frost, not the genus, which is an abstraction (albeit conceivably an abstraction of a natural group). This gets at a fundamental tension in the naming of organisms, the same tension that begets the fighting over whether to capitalize bird names: the use of a name to designate both a group and a set of individuals. Before all the philosophers do facepalm, let me give an analogy. When most people speak today of "the United States of America", they are referring to a nation, and would normally use it in the singular. But back in the early days of the US, it was a plural, because it was an assemblage of individual political entities. Pelargonium is a genus, a taxon in the taxonomic hierarchy, but it is also a group of species, each of which is a group of individuals, which, to a certain level of statistical assurance, only tolerate a few degrees of frost. If we followed my schola veteri view of plurals and wrote "Pelargonia tolerate only a few degrees of frost," it would still in a way be nonsense, since there is only one genus Pelargonium. Even "Pelargonium species and cultivars only tolerate a few degrees of frost" is pushing it, because it's not the species and cultivars, but rather the plants, that are frostily challenged. So in a sense, "Pelargoniums only tolerate a few degrees of frost" is preferable because of its imprecision; the alternatives are precisely incorrect.
I don't expect us to solve this, and I'm not sure how to incorporate it into the guideline, but I think it's important to consider.--Curtis Clark (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Curtis, I think this would be a very difficult problem to solve, particularly to specify general rules, though I have little experience with trying to iron out all such problems (probably because my idiolect is quite tolerant of metonymy). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:07, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Curtis, would that mean that "I grew a Hosta in the garden" should be incorrect, since what was grown was a plant, not an abstraction? Tdslk (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We might be heading towards a black hole of semantics here, which might be quite pleasant to view the inside of, but I fear we will never get out. Following the logic about abstractions further, surely it becomes quite hard to state anything at all about a genus or species, because it's the plants and not the abstractions that have physical properties such as obovate leaves etc.? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think to be precise and correct, the way round the issue of abstractions would be to make statements such as "Plants within the species Gaultheria procumbens are small low-growing shrubs, typically reaching 10–15 centimetres (3.9–5.9 in) tall...", rather than "Gaultheria procumbens is a small low-growing shrub, typically reaching...", but this encounters the problem that this is not how the language is generally used, not even in most sources I imagine, and a very great number of articles would need to be adjusted in order to comply. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 06:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A botanical name is the name of a taxonomic group (my emphasis), according to the ICN. Whenever groups have names then it's perfectly normal (at least in all the languages that I know) to use the group name as the subject of a sentence when the group as a whole is meant. Thus we happily say Aston Villa played well today (for US readers, Aston Villa is the name of an internationally famous association football team). So when we write Gaultheria procumbens is a small low-growing shrub we are using a group name in a perfectly straightforward way. There are cases where the meaning is different, e.g. in Pernettya is now a synonym of Gaultheria, since here it's the name Pernettya, not the taxonomic group to which it refers, which is the synonym. In other contexts, the reference to the word itself rather than the meaning of the word would be marked by the use of italics or some kind of quotes, so perhaps we should really write "Pernettya" is now a synonym of "Gaultheria" but this is not the usual style in botanical works, and would anyway be lost on most readers. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:16, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As there seems a consensus among those discussing the matter here, I'll add the words above to the project page, and put a note at the bottom of this page to say that I've done so. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

edit warring at tree

tree recently got rewritten and then reverted before some more reverting. It would be great to get more knowledgeable eyes on this and hopefully forge a hybrid/improved article incorporating the best of both, and steer it forwards. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:56, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Dendrarium" vs. "arboretum"

Is "dendrarium" just another way of saying "arboretum"? In this article I was going to substitute the latter for the queried former, and thereby remove the clarification tag, but I'm not sure if it's a 100% replacement term. Are "dendrariums" under cover somehow? Anyone know? I've tried Wiktionary and my own paper dictionary, without success. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 16:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Try Googling. My interpretation of the results is that dendrarium is a Russian term for arboretum. Lavateraguy (talk) 16:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I hadn't thought of Google (duh!) It certainly seems to be a term used in eastern and south-eastern Europe, though I wonder if it means something broader than an arboretum; the plant collections listed under some of the "dendrarium" institutions don't particularly favour trees, and some of the pictures look more like general gardens (including one of a rose garden). Maybe there's no direct translation, and perhaps "arboretum" is the nearest equivalent? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:28, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you check the interwiki from arboretum to the Russian wikipedia it takes you to Дендрарий and арборетум is a redirect to that article. Eau (talk) 17:23, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the Russian article on ru:Дендрарий (dendrarii) gives арборетум (arboretum) as a synonym in the opening sentence. The only difference is that dendro- comes from Greek and arbor comes from Latin. The additional Greek form is probably the result of Byzantine influence in Eastern Orthodox countries. --EncycloPetey (talk) 20:39, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks. I've adjusted the article. (I considered it best to add "arboretum" in brackets and keep "dendrarium", thereby perhaps introducing the reader to a new, Russian-favoured [flavoured?] alternative.) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dipterocarpus costatus

We could probably use more input in a case of close paraphrasing and dense botanical writing at Talk:Dipterocarpus costatus. See the template on the main article for instructions on viewing the concerned text and automatically comparing it to the source, or use the edit history and source independently. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request for help on Thurovia vs. Thurovia triflora

Hi folks, I wanted to process a very old merger proposal of Thurovia and Thurovia triflora, but they seem to contradict each other, both claiming to be a genus. The latter certainly looks like a species name to me, but the only functioning reference from either page is this one, which says it's a genus. It seems like there should be a straightforward answer, but Wikispecies doesn't cover the genus at all. References, of course, would be helpful; I can add them to the merged article. Thanks, BDD (talk) 21:00, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Already merged by Dr. Blofield it seems. But for future reference, the genus Thurovia is a monotypic genus, meaning it contains only one species - Thurovia triflora. In other words, both names actually refer to only one kind of plant.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 10:59, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AfD Oocystales -- green alga

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oocystales I have nominated this article for deletion as it appear to be a database error, please assist by adding an appropriate citation or participating in the deletion discussion if you can. Thanks, Eau (talk) 14:03, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Terminalia ferdinandiana

I want to add an image. This image says Santalum lanceolatum and Terminalia ferdinandiana. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:24, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That image was originally identified as Terminalia ferdinandiana, but is in fact Santalum lanceolatum. There is some previous discussion here.--Melburnian (talk) 03:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming "Pinus ponderosa" to "Ponderosa pine"

I've opened a discussion at Talk:Pinus ponderosa#Moving article to "Ponderosa pine" about retitling Pinus ponderosa to Ponderosa pine. WikiProject participants are more than welcome to join in the discussion and help come to a consensus. —hike395 (talk) 12:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Phormium / New Zealand flax

Content fork alert. New Zealand flax is the older article; user Alan Liefting has created Phormium apparently in a belief that the science aspects of this genus should be in a separate article from all the other information. --EncycloPetey (talk) 05:34, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn't it at Phormium rather than New Zealand Flax? The genus name is used extensively in the horticulture trade and included in commercial information, often as prominent as the common name. It does not seem this is a needed exception to using the scientific name. Eau (talk) 06:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a content fork. Both Phormium and New Zealand flax are justified as separate articles. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 06:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why though? All the content in New Zealand flax pertains to both species of Phormium. There are some cases I understand, like Jute's and Cotton's separation from Corchorus and Gossypium respectively (the former two pertains only to the fiber produced, and not all species of those genera are used as fiber), but not this.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 06:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am inclined to agree with both EauOo and Obsidian Soul; in UK horticulture it is always referred to as Phormium, and all the info about fibres could go in the Phormium article, with a redirect from New Zealand flax. However this could be a UK-centric POV; I note in the New Zealand flax article it refers to the fibres having "played an important role in the culture, history, and economy of New Zealand"; the question is - how economically and culturally important does a commodity have to be to warrant having its own article, separate from the plant that produces that commodity? But even if such separation is warranted in this instance, I think the problem with the 2 articles as they stand is that the New Zealand flax article doesn't talk about just the commodity. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While it would be possible to create two articles, Phormium and New Zealand flax, and we could then debate whether this would be justified, this isn't what happened, as PaleCloudedWhite notes. The New Zealand flax article continues to cover both the genus and the product, and the genus article says nothing that couldn't be in the other article. I believe that this is a content fork, as it stands at present, and should be reversed. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it's a content fork; both article cover the same species. In the US, "New Zealand flax" is used much more often in the horticultural trade than "Phormium", but the difference between UK and US usage strongly argues for the article title being Phormium.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:36, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I write plant descriptions for the trade, mostly wholesale, some retail, and Phormium is one of the genus names used extensively, compared to others; although I have never researched it. US, some Canada. Eau (talk) 16:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Given the importance of New Zealand flax to NZ, and I would argue that it was as important to the pre-colonisation Maori people as cotton is to contemporary society, it justifies its own article. It is an extremely notable topic in its own right - as is Phormium. Also, we should remember that this is an encyclopaedia - a place where there is short articles on many topics. And we should think about why we have separate jute and cotton article (as examples pointed out by Obsidian Soul) but not for New Zealand flax or potato, or any other species used extensively by humans. I think it is a matter a time where we will see the botanical and cultural aspects of species separated out. WP has a wide readership - some want science info and some want cultural info. As an illustration there already are numerous "Introduction to [topic]" articles to cater for the diverse readership. Now I hope you lot aren't being Wikiconservatives! -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are two different points being made here, Alan:
  • Should there be two articles, one on the genus and one on the product? Opinion is probably divided; personally I'm increasingly coming round to the view you express above, namely that splitting botanical and cultural/commercial aspects of topics like this is a good idea. However, we could usefully have discussed this issue first.
  • Has the split been done appropriately? My answer to this is definitely not. You basically created a stub article at Phormium; there's a lot more that needs to be moved over from New Zealand flax. It's not "Wikiconservatism" to object to what appears to be "botched job".
Are you going to finish what you started? If not, I favour reverting. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree that Phormium is a stub - it a short article (there is a difference). Besides, it is acceptable (IMO) that a stub can be created from a split of an article, but only if it is a notable standalone topic. As for the content, I don't agree that it is a "botched job". The only section that I would possibly consider would be the "Appearance" section, but since it is unreferenced and is not a very good genus description I left it in the New Zealand flax. The Phormium definitely needs expanding. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I did not think of going that far but I think it is justifiable. It was important to Māori and Europeans in a different manner. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than using the plant names should we go for an article name such as Flax in New Zealand for the cultural and commercial aspects? New Zealand flax can then be a redir to the Phormium article. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the major article has to be Phormium/Phormium Tenax, as this is it's formal name worldwide. Then have a section "Use in New Zealand" or similar, and that has main articles linking to Maori use and the New Zealand european flax industry. Rudolph89talk 22:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. Phormium is the formal genus name - therefore recognised worldwide. Phormium tenax is a formal species name for one of the two species - therefore recognised worldwide. Also, by convention genus and species are separate article. The usage of Phormium tenax sufficiently notable to justify its own article. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All this talk of multiple articles would be well and good if there were already content for all of them. As it is, cultivars, which would seem to pertain to the horticultural trade, are in the genus article, and the description of the plant and its discovery and naming by Europeans, which pertain to the genus, are in the economic uses article. The actual division of content works against your expressed intentions.--Curtis Clark (talk) 23:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is rather ironic that there is almost more text discussing the the articles than there is in the articles themselves! -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've been putting flax-related content in other articles (Muka, Tāniko, etc) because the core ones are such a mess. Build them and the will come. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:26, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You created the content fork, you're obligated to fill your new article to justify why. Until that's done, your assertions of "separate topics" in your reverts has no weight. All you did was make a new page with a taxobox, a few sentences already present from the article you split it from, and a random list of cultivars. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 14:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have now created Flax in New Zealand. The current contents do not do the topic any justice. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, WP:BOLD it is. I've moved the botanical parts to the genus article and the horticultural parts to the flax article.I've also noted that Jacques Labillardière appears to have actually played no part in the naming of the genus. The only thing sources say is that he collected specimens he took back to Europe and observed the importance of the plants to the Maori. An observation already made years prior by members of the Cook expedition and settlers, thus I've removed him.
I still strongly do not approve of the split. It necessitates that the reader move back and forth between two articles when one would have served better. I can't even decide which stuff to move as it would mean losing context in the other article. It doesn't clarify anything. It confuses the reader. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 14:16, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll agree with the majority above that these should be one article for now, and with OS's point that there is no need for the reader to have to go back and forth between two articles for related info. We've been essentially asking about the the articles: 'Should they be split for the perfect arrangement in the future?'. That's the wrong question and not the way Wikipedia works. We should be asking 'Must they be split, now?', and the answer is definately no (see WP:SPINOUT for details). Not even near big enough to split yet. We have a standard Plant Article Template, and it would work perfectly here; let's use it. All the info on fiber itself fits perfectly to fill out the "Uses" section that the genus article should have. Same with the "Cultivars" section, that definately belongs in a standard plant article. Put these two articles together and we have a very nice base to launch a GA or FA effort. ----Tom Hulse (talk) 22:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I completely disagree, particularly around the casting these as cultivars. The underlying reason for the current mess is that there are essentially political disagreements about how these should be cast (those outside of NZ are welcome to read the precis of WAI 262). Presenting the Harakeke article in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants standard form is the problem, not the solution. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Stuart, I read your links, and I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that Maori common names should take precedence over scientific names for artice titles? Regarding your comment about cultivars, I mean this sincerely with respect, but are you sure you understand the difference between cultivars and species? A plant will be either a pure species or a cultivar within that species. One or the other. Are you saying you have evidence that some of these cultivars are instead just pure, unbred native species? There is a lock-solid way that species and cultivars are "cast" around the world, by internationally agreed rules (ICBN & ICNCP). There is nothing at all that a local political squabble could do to change that interntional agreement on their own. --Tom Hulse (talk) 02:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"There is nothing at all that a local political squabble could do to change that interntional agreement on their own" that is exactly the point of the WAI 262 legal case. The legal decision is >1000 pages in length, but the relavent point here is that a number of international agreements and treaties (to which New Zealand is now a party) do not meeting the crown's obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi with respect to indigenous flora and fauna. This is why I'm suggesting the harakeke page be completely seperate from Phormium, so that it can ignore selected parts of Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants (and thus ICBN & ICNCP) as appropiate. Stuartyeates (talk) 02:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, there is not a chance that would every happen, Stuart. It amounts to a tiny, tiny minority shouting louder than the whole rest of the world to get their way. Your Crown's obligations and your tribal treaty rights are really irrelvant to the rest of the world in this context. You don't get more say than everyone else since your treaty was not made with whole world. We have international agreement on how plants are organized and named... your treaty doesn't matter in this context.
Completely separately, your name of harakeke is a foreign language word and not a name commonly used in the English language, is that right? Maori is a foreign language, this is English Wikipedia. Perhaps we can help you reach your goals a different way. What is it exactly you would like the article to say that isn't allowed under Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants? Maybe we can help. --Tom Hulse (talk) 03:20, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"It amounts to a tiny, tiny minority shouting louder than the whole rest of the world to get their way." I'm not suggesting that we get our own way. I'm suggesting that Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants has it's set of pages according to it's set of rules (Phormium, Phormium tenax, etc) and that Wikipedia:WikiProject New Zealand/Māori task force maintain harakeke with different (but overlapping) content. Note that as per MOS:TIES, all these pages are in New Zealand English not "the English language". Stuartyeates (talk) 03:28, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Stuart, I don't have a problem with using NZ English, but harakeke is not at all the most common NZ English name for any Phormium plant. It is still a foriegn word that is only occasionally used by bilingual speakers using the foreign word. Look at your local NZ nurseries for these plants. They mainly use the words "Phomium" or "flax". So reasons you don't get your own harakeke article: 1) Wikipedia policy is plant articles get named after their Latin scientific names, not common names, unless you have so much info that you need to break out a product of the plant. 2)Harakeke is not the most common name in English, even in New Zealand it is a non-English word in the Maori language 3) Wikipedia:Content forking says you can't.
Are you just wanting to play political naming games by duplicating the article, or do you have some real, solid content that you don't think fits in the standard article? I'm sure it can all fit comfortably within the "Uses" section, which can have several subheadings.--Tom Hulse (talk) 05:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
[ec] It's not entirely clear to me what "harakeke" is. Is it synonymous with Phormium tenax? The indigenous people in my area, the Tongva people, use a plant manit; it is an hallucinogen that was (and may still be, although I doubt it) a key part of an initiation ritual. Botanists call it Datura wrightii. One could write an article about manit, its ritual use, its place in Tongva cosmogeny, and all that, and the article would not be a content fork, because it would not be a botanical article, but rather an article about anthropology, or indigenous religion. Unfortunately the Tongva didn't fare as well as the Māori; what little is left of that knowledge would barely make an article, and even then only by combining the traditions of many indigenous groups across southwestern North America. If you have enough material for an article at harakeke, I say go for it. I don't see that as being what Alan Liefting has done, though, and I still see his article as a content fork.--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:35, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Curtis, harakeke is a direct equivelant for the species Phormium tenax. It is a common-use name in a foreign language (Maori). In your manit example, actually yes that would be an unacceptable content fork because manit and Datura wrightii mean exactly the same thing. Literally every single word that would go in a manit article would be appropriate if it was instead included in a Datura wrightii article. Wikipedia articles are about topics, not terms (encylopedia not dictionary). Please do review the Wikipedia:Content forking article. If your Datura wrightii article got too big (per the WP:LENGTH guideline), then you could spin off a "Uses of manit" article, but not just a "manit" aritcle, since that should have exactly the same content D. wrightii does. So if your spinoff article was directly about anthropology or use in religion, then the article title would reflect that "anthropology of..." "... use in religion" (it would be deceiving to just plainly call it "manit" which is a straight-across equal for D. wrightii). I do agree with you though about Alan's article. --Tom Hulse (talk) 06:31, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Please do review the Wikipedia:Content forking article." Done. WP:SPINOFF, WP:SUBPOV. See below for further discussion.--Curtis Clark (talk) 23:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is a draft at User:Stuartyeates/Harakeke. There's quite a lot missing still. Before I go live I'll check the vocab against The Dictionary of New Zealand English (1997) and/or the official school sylabus. You may notice that I've been adding content to the other articles that's more appropriate there. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Do take a look at your opening sentence: "Harakeke (Phormium sp.) is an important plant to the Māori." As such:
  • What is harakeke? - it's Phormium tenax
  • What is Phormium tenax? - it's harakeke
  • What is wharariki? - it's Phormium cookianum
  • What is Phormium cookianum? - it's wharariki
  • What is New Zealand flax? - it's the two species belonging to Phormium
  • What is Phormium? - it's New Zealand flax
See how ridiculous it is to separate the two? It's like having a separate article for Germany and another for Deutschland. The only difference between the articles is the name used. That's unjustifiable, any way you look at it. Unless the name itself has dissociated enough to have become applied to completely different subjects, (e.g. if it has become the name for a plant not belonging to Phormium, or if applies solely to the fiber, both of which is not the case), harakeke is Phormium tenax. Instead of splitting, you can instead propose a renaming of the article. I myself don't particularly care what you call the plant, as long as it's in one coherent page which benefits the reader the most.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 20:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, since you didn't even identify the species which seems like deliberately obfuscating the fact that harakeke is actually P. tenax.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 20:24, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But look at the broader draft article. Stuartyeates has shown that there is a lot of cultural info about Phormium tenax and therefore can justify its own article. Stuart, Flax in New Zealand could do with some of that info. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How? Give me one good explanation why the content of harakeke can't be discussed in Phormium tenax. Go on.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 21:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) It is not that harakeke can't be discussed at Phormium tenax but since the use by Maori and by Europeans are both significant topics the cultural information would swamp the P. tenax article. Also, while WP is not paper but as an encyclopaedia that has to cater to a wide range of readers and interests, having many shorter but well linked articles is preferable. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:26, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is not within the criteria for valid splitting. Aside from length considerations, the only time splitting is acceptable is outlined in WP:CONSPLIT. Harakeke vs. Phormium tenax by any given definition do not meet the criteria for "two or more distinct topics". All the content in harakeke refer to the uses and cultural importance of the plant. That is not a distinct topic and can comfortably be explained (and with much better context) in the article of the plant itself. The same thing applies with the genus and "New Zealand flax".
Again, ask yourself what harakeke is and you'd come up with the same answer, it's the Māori name Phormium tenax. Does it mean it refers to a different plant? No. It's even endemic so you're not exactly going anywhere with a rationale that the plant might have different cultural significance elsewhere. A harakeke in Europe is still the same plant as a harakeke in New Zealand.
I'm an Austronesian islander as well. When cooking something (not that I can cook anything more complex than omelets, heh) does that mean that the sibuyas I use is different from the cebollas used by my Spanish-speaking grandparents and both are different from the onions you use?-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 21:56, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest suspending this discussion for ~ a week while I polish the user draft (other input welcome). I believe there are good answers to these questions, but that they're best answered with a concrete example to point to, particularly since I believe some of the confusion boils down to cultural misunderstandings. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:23, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't you just expand the Phormium tenax article. I mean, really? Believing there are good answers mean you're not even sure there are answers. You've admitted yourself that the content will be overlapping. Yes, 99% of the content will overlap, unless you reduce one of the articles to a vague stub so that you can write about it in the second article. That isn't exactly helpful to the readers is it? -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 21:56, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On the one hand, I think a fork might well be justified under WP:SPINOFF and WP:SUBPOV. On the other hand, the manner in which Alan Liefting and Stuartyeates are doing this is guaranteed to garner resistance. Had they added a large amount of cultural information (even if added a bit at a time), eventually there would be a point where the rest of you would say "This is overwhelming the article. Spin it off into a separate article." Stuartyeates, it's not too late to do it that way, and it has the added advantage that the information is in the encyclopedia while we sort out where it should go.--Curtis Clark (talk) 23:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SUBPOV can not be used in this case, since this is definately not an "article whose subject is a POV". WP:SUBPOV gives several examples of types of articles whose subject is POV, very different from this object-based article. Also WP:SUBPOV must be interpreted only in the context of of WP:POVFORK, which explains that you can not start another article just to present another point of view (unless the subject itself IS a POV like Biblical literalism per WP:SUBPOV). WP:SPINOFF definately does apply though, and it is clear that it is only used when needed under the guideline of Wikipedia:Article size. Not only is the size a requirement, but it also says that "the moved material must be replaced with an NPOV summary of that material. If it is not, then the "spinning out" is really a clear act of POV forking". So Stuart, as part of your additions to the new article, if there really is some magic reason they can't go in the main article, then you'll want to include a summary & link in main article to prov you are not point-of-view forking, and to ensure your article isn't deleted or subsumed into the main article. --Tom Hulse (talk) 02:19, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Carl Ludwig Sprenger

The article on the botanist Carl Ludwig Sprenger has two very long lists of plants. I would like someone from this project to take a look and decide if these lists should be shortened, or eliminated, or perhaps placed elsewhere. --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is excessive detail that should be summarised. Also, to use "beautiful" in the list is POV. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 08:46, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, there is no proper sourcing for these lists. Also the format of many of the names in the Yucca list is suspect with no proper distinction between cultivars and artificial hybrids. Those hybrid names I've checked haven't been accepted by the Kew World Checklist. The best thing to do in my view is to remove both lists. The article itself needs work: it has too much "puffery". Peter coxhead (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've now removed the list of Yucca species. I'll leave someone else to deal with the cannas. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Peter, isn't this the second time you've backed away from cannas? :-) --Curtis Clark (talk) 16:48, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I did edit the Canna article, but you're partly right: I gave up when I looked at the "List of Canna ..." articles. I have now tried to tidy up Carl Ludwig Sprenger after Alan Liefting removed the list of Canna cultivars. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:29, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Split out of History of the potato

I may weigh into the debate that I caused with the NZ flax article but in the meantime here is another split that I did - History of the potato. Enjoy... -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Having fun? You're not even adding any new content. Merely cutting out huge swathes of text and replanting them elsewhere. I've remerged the article. Propose any splits you want in the future properly. See Wikipedia:Splitting. You know activities like this are contentious, and doing it unilaterally is disruptive. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 21:10, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) potato certainly was (and still is) a hefty article. Some time ago I tried improving [[coffee] and one of the headaches wirth that was harmonising it with history of coffee.....Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would support the split as well for that reason, but in light of Alan Liefting's recent split of Phormium, it's better if it's discussed first. Making this a habit is not going to help us any in the long run. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 21:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Covering every plant in Gibraltar Botanic Gardens as part of GibraltarpediA

I help run a project called GibraltarpediA, we are trying to cover as much as possible in Gibraltar in as many languages as possible. The project is based on MonmouthpediA, where we created 550+ new articles in 30 languages in around 4 months, Monmouth became the world’s first Wikipedia town.

As part of GibraltarpediA we aim to cover every plant in the Gibraltar Botanic Gardens and create QRpedia codes (a type of bar code your phone can read through it's camera that automatically takes you through to a Wikipedia in your own language) in the garden to give people easy access to the information. As far as I know the first botanic garden to do this. A full list of the plants is available here, I would estimate around half already have some information in English but many have an article in other languages already.

We’ve started the Gibraltar Challenge to reward contributors where you can win books and tshirts etc. We’d really love people from Wikiproject Plants to be involved, you can find out more by clicking here.

Many thanks

Mrjohncummings (talk) 12:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You might like to reconsider retargetting on every plant species in the Gibraltar Botanic Garden. Even if you got people to produce pages for (e.g.) water lily and tropical hibiscus cultivars, you might get pushback on questions of notability. I notice that you've already dropped a Protea cultivar, resulting in the species being duplicated in the list.
PS: I think that Hibiscus 'The President' is a Hibiscus rosa-sinensis cultivar. Lavateraguy (talk) 12:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Plants from the Pantanal for identification

Is there anyone who can identify these plants from the Pantanal? --Leyo 23:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first is a cactus of the tribe Hylocereeae (Hylocereus, Selenicereus, etc.). Some, like Hylocereus undatus, are widely cultivated for their fruit, so are found well outside their native range. I'm not sure that you are going to get closer than this from the photograph. Peter coxhead (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. It grows wild there. My initial thought that the fruit looks like a dragon fruit was not too bad, then. --Leyo 12:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Goodbye

An ArbCom case has been started over my protection of Antonie van Leeuwenhoek. I've made the statement I have time to make, but know how these ArbCom cases always go, given the ferocity and force of the cabal that brings them to ArbCom. So, I will probably no longer be an admin by the time I next log on, and the cabal can then bully me with their admin powers. I don't find Wikipedia fun anymore, although I've greatly enjoyed and profited by interactions here at WP:PLANTS. Really. I did want to let this group know that I admire their hard work and thoughtful discussion. By the time most of you read this, a few hours will have passed, and the ArbCom decision will have been railroaded through. I don't know if the community here has seen as many admins driven out by the cabal as I have, but their tireless efforts will continue, I'm sure, because they watch out for each other. I'll probably continue my work on other projects, regardless. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it might be enough if you promised in your statement not to protect in the future any articles that you edited (just make a request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if needed). If this will not be enough, you could voluntarily give up your tools. Yes, this is certainly a good idea not to waste your time and nerves on arbitration. My very best wishes (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although we've had problems in the past, I am sorry to see anyone lose enthusiasm for editing. I hope that you've looked as the discussion by the admin "cabal", as you call them, so that you see that they are discussing reviewing your use of admin tools, not blocking or banning.
P.S. f.y.i. the very first problem that set me to thinking that you and I can't work on the same page was that when I was a very new editor you sent me what I thought was a savage email message; I quickly worked out how to stop wikipedia email. Nonetheless, I wish you well, and hope that you don't lose heart. Your opinions expressed here have been valuable, even if editing details sometimes cause friction. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:55, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Go well, Petey. Hesperian 14:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomic impediment

There is a new small page that might be of interest; contributions invited. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:57, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

APG higher taxa pluralized

Is there a reference for Wikipedia pluralizing the higher taxa for APG? I am sure it is in the primary articles or something, but I need to cite it. Thanks. Eau (talk) 04:03, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what the issue is. The names are plural on APWeb.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:48, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A reader asked about this on a talk page, we have orders at singular, but unranked higher taxa at plurals, so I am wondering why we do this. Also, some of the articles have statements suggesting the taxon name should always be plural to be correct; this should get a citation,.and I never noticed this before and am curious. Eau (talk) 05:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the primary reference is the Botanical Code. Citing the Vienna Code
"16.1. The name of a taxon above the rank of family is treated as a noun in the plural..."
"18.1. The name of a family is a plural adjective used as a noun..."
"20.1. The name of a genus is a noun in the nominative singular..."
"23.1. The name of a species is a binary combination consisting of the name of the genus followed by a single specific epithet..."
Thus the Latin "Poaceae" is equivalent to the English plural "grasses". So where you would write "... grasses are ..." it is said that you should write "... Poaceae are ..." So we have e.g. "... Poales are ..." or "... Poaceae are ..." but "... Poa is ...".
However, we aren't writing Latin, we are writing English. In English, there are clear cases where nouns which are plural in form are grammatically singular. Thus we say "the United States is a large country". So just because "Poaceae" is a plural form in Latin doesn't mean that it has to be treated as grammatically plural in writing English.
Further, there is a complication when a Latin pural noun is combined with an English singular noun as in "the order Poales" or "the family Poaceae". Consider the noun phrase "the grass family". English syntax demands that the first noun in such a two-noun phrase is singular (or possessive). For this reason some people object to "the Poaceae family" as it is equivalent to "the grasses family", which wouldn't be used in standard English. Instead they prefer "the family Poaceae" which can be treated as as being plural: "the family Poaceae are found worldwide". However, collective nouns, like family, can be treated as either singular or plural in English, with some ENGVAR differences. Consider "His family come to seem him every day" vs. "His family comes to seem him every day." Either are perfectly acceptable to me as a speaker of English from southern England. So I'm happy with "the family Poaceae is found worldwide"; indeed I find "the family Poacaeae are found worldwide" slightly odd. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unranked taxa, above orders. I was okay with most of this, other than having to stop and think while writing. I am talking about eudicots, etc. Eau (talk) 06:40, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Eudicots, monocots, angiosperms, core eudicots, etc. all come from the APG III system paper. It was their choice to name the clades that way, we just follow along. Rkitko (talk) 13:54, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Information for Oil palm article

Hello, last week I left a request on the Oil palm talk page with three simple revisions to the History and Palm oil production sections. These introduce new information and update data that is now several years old. The request is on behalf of the Malaysian Palm Oil Council, which is why I am reaching out to other editors, instead of adding the information myself. The full request can be seen here. I hope that someone will add these to the articles. I'll be checking this page as well as the article talk page if you have any questions or concerns. Thanks in advance. YellowOwl (talk) 23:18, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The history and production info looks okay. The Development scheme text needs to be supported by secondary sources and not info from MPOC/SALCRA. SALCRA is also a bit controversial and there is some/much critisims of the schemeSepilok2007 (talk) 02:19, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sepilok2007, thanks for your thoughts on the revisions. Taking your point about the development scheme text, I've added a new secondary source and reduced the detail on SALCRA. The other sources in this section were independent of SALCRA or MPOC. See here for the updated text. I'll check back here to see if you have any more concerns or questions, but if you do not, will you add the revisions to the article? Thanks in advance. YellowOwl (talk) 20:53, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Turns out there are two articles, Oil palm and Palm oil. There are two species involved, Elaeis guineensis and Elaeis oleifera, neither of which has its own page, and there is no genus page either. I'd be glad if someone else would give a yes/no opinion on whether to convert Oil palm to the genus page under the name Elaeis, which I think would be less confusing. After the move the duplication could be reduced. Thanks. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is one of those common names versus scientific name debates - I have no problems with converting oil palm to the genus page. I think we should keep the product (palm oil) seperate from the plant. Sepilok2007 (talk) 05:44, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Suppose I should discuss it there first, but I don't think it is just a botanical bias that makes me find this a particularly confusing case that could be straightened out by using the genus name. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sminthopsis84 and Sepilok2007, the plan to change the article name seems fine to me. Regarding the text I've written: if neither of you have objections, do you think one of you could add it to the article? Thanks in advance. YellowOwl (talk) 22:33, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi YellowOwl, unless someone finds a block of time and a major energy boost, giving this full consideration will take a while. We are all volunteers whose time is mostly taken up with real-life activities. The several articles that are involved are not in good condition, so every addition needs extra thought. The glacial pace is part of wikipedia, necessary to achieving consensus, sorry. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sminthopsis84, not a problem, of course reviewing such material takes time. I'm afraid I assumed that since you added the historical information to the Palm oil article that you already felt it was fine and just wanted to remind you, I did not mean to appear pushy. To see if others can come and look at what I've written, to help out with finding someone who has time to look at this, I'll go ask elsewhere too. YellowOwl (talk) 15:07, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ruellia angustifolia article

Ruellia angustifolia has been tagged since 2008 for confusion over the true name. Looking at the article makes it even more confusing, with a synonym being used throughout. The information here[2] adds Ruellia simplex Wright to the possibilities. Thoughts anyone? First Light (talk) 01:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to IPNI, Ruellia angustifolia Sessé & Moc. is a later homonym, hence illegitimate, so the article shouldn't be called that. Of Ruellia brittoniana Leonard, it says "Remarks: nom. nov. to replace R. spectabilis Britton (later homonym) & R. angustifolia Nees (later homonym)". There is no "Ruellia angustifolia Nees, but there is a Cryphiacanthus angustifolius Nees, which is the synonym of Ruellia brittoniana. Ruellia simplex Wright appears to be (1) a taxonomic synonym, (2) legitimate, and (3) an older name than Ruellia brittoniana, so that if the two were considered conspecific, Ruellia simplex Wright seems to be the correct name.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:30, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tropicos has a more confusing network of interrelationships. Ruellia brittonia is not in IPNI and is marked as illegitimate in The Plant List. TPL agrees that Ruellia simplex is the accepted name. I'd suggest citing TPL for this information because it looks like quite a good bet right now and is likely to be updated as WCPS evolves. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 11:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Currently the plant is classified in Commons as Ruellia simplex C. Wright, with as synonyms Ruellia angustifolia Sessé et Moc., Ruellia tweedieana Griseb., Ruellia brittoniana Leonard, Ruellia coerulea Morong, and Ruellia spectabilis Britton. Best regards, --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 12:18, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you all - I'll go ahead and move it to Ruellia simplex. My head is spinning a bit less now.... First Light (talk) 15:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting List of botanists by author abbreviation

There was a consensus at Talk:List of botanists by author abbreviation some time ago that the page was too long and needed splitting. I have started to do this: initially by splitting off the entries for P–Z.

I would welcome comments (at Talk:List of botanists by author abbreviation#Page split please) on the method I've used to make the split before I go any further. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oak disambiguation

Could really, really, use some help with an editor who wants to delete all non-Quercus "oaks" from Oak (disambiguation) on the grounds that Oak must cover all "oaks". There is more discussion on my talk page. (Could also use some help at Albatross (disambiguation), though that, of course, is distressingly not-plantish.) Thanks. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:41, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Conservation status of Plants

Are there any restriction on which conservation status listing and ranking system we use on a Plant page? The reason I ask is currently less than 10% of the plants in Borneo are currently listed on the IUCN redlist, however, there are a number of publish assessments done using the IUCN methods, but due to the massive backlog at the IUCN Red List office they haven't been reviewed by the IUCN/SSC groups. I had one Parashorea that isn't on the red list, but found a status listing for this species in the Tree Flora of Sabah and Sarawak. The assessor/author of the TFSS is Peter Shaw Ashton, Peter also did the red listing of Dipterocarps for the World List of Threatened Trees (the sources of many of the IUCN's Tree Listings) - so it is a reliable source. Can this be used? can I reverted the deletion of this status listing by another editor? Sepilok2007 (talk) 14:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New section added to project page

Just to advise everyone that a new section has been added to the project page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants#The use of botanical names as common names. This was based on a consensus reached above, but further comments are, of course, welcome. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, Peter. Some additional ideas you might consider:
1) Is there any way to make clear that this applies to the body of the articles, and must exclude article naming?
2) The 3rd bullet point: "The common name may not correspond to current genus boundaries at all, e.g. "geraniums".", seems to sharply fail for a quality encyclopedia, if we were sanctioning that use here. It would favor false and contradictory statements. Could I propose something with an idea similar to: "Common names that do not correspond directly to the taxon represented by the article title, e.g. "geraniums", should usually be avoided unless they are carefully explained and only used where they are sure not to confuse the reader."
3) I could see different ways your second bullet point might be interpreted; I'm sure you don't mean to give permission for a common name representing only a portion of the real genus could be substituted throughout the article with just an explantion in the lead. What do you think of something like: "If a common name represents only part of the whole genus (e.g. "azalea" would be a portion of Rhododendron), then the article should be clear exactly which plants are meant by each common name and scientific name used."?
--Tom Hulse (talk) 18:00, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tom, I think that your point (1) is already covered by the subsection above on Plant article naming conventions. I think you're reading the second and third bullet points differently to the way intended: they are only describing possible ways in which the common name may relate to the genus name, not saying anything about whether they should be used in articles. The only place where any "sanction" is given to the use of the common name is at "When the plural means something like 'those species and cultivars of the genus which are in cultivation' its use is more acceptable". This is, to me anyway, clearly only relates to the use in the first bullet point, and says as much as there is currently consensus for, namely that it is "more acceptable". There's no consensus either to sanction or to ban the use; opinions differ.
I have moved a sentence within the subsection which may make it slightly clearer that we should explain all kinds of uses of the common name in relation to the genus name, particularly those covered by the second two bullet points. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:39, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do see your intended meaning, Peter, and your edit is in the right direction, but you have to admit that when you use language like "may be used", it is rife for misinterpretation. I'm sure you have experience with editors pulling out whatever meaning they want from guidelines; and I promise you that some will interpret "may be used" as "you the reader may use". If you are not granting permission, then there is no reason really to "inform" the reader of how these may be used... somewhere but not here. I'm sorry to nitpick, but I'm looking ahead to discussions that are needed to clean up some of these really awful, confusing, and contradictory articles like Azalea. This section needs to be crystal clear.
So yes you have consensus to use "common names" in the text when they are just the genus name with different typography, but you do not have consensus with anything relating to common names that don't directly correlate to the taxon being discussed. I feel you're being too soft on that case by just mentioning it in the lead. So I would like the bullet points (mainly 2 & 3)to go away, they don't add any explanation of policy and they can easily be misunderstood.
Alternatively, instead of just telling the reader to explain cases 2&3 in the lead; let's tell them to avoid using common names that do not correlate to the scientific name, unless it is necessary, and unless the difference is carefully explained. --Tom Hulse (talk) 07:27, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tom, you might like to tell editors to avoid using common names in this way, but I didn't put this in the project page because I judged that there was no consensus for it. I'll look again at the wording to see if I can clarify it further within the consensus so far. By all means open a discussion (in a new section please!) to try to achieve consensus for further changes. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:35, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've now re-written the section again to avoid the use of "may be" which could, as Tom has pointed out, be mis-interpreted as giving permission for this use to be included in WP articles, whereas all that was meant was that this is one of the cases which may be found in sources. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone know what this is....

I just got back from Shanghai and this was in flower everywhere. Anyone have any idea? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:09, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

late summer-flowering annual from Shanghai....
Are you sure it's an annual? It looks like Nerine, which is a late summer-flowering bulbous perennial. Lavateraguy (talk) 15:48, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lycoris (esp. Lycoris radiata) looks close, too, and is a better fit geographically. --Stemonitis (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would say definitely Lycoris radiata. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:11, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(belatedly) thanks folks - yes the photos are like Lycoris radiata indeed. I just called it an annual but will rename. I meant bulb-thingy as I figured that's what it was. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:42, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Synonyms in Curcuma

I have just added a taxobox to the new article Curcuma cordata. There are suggestions there and elsewhere that this is synonymous with (the existing article) Curcuma petiolata. Can anyone confirm this (and which is the valid name)? If so, several pages will need to be updated here and on the Commons. --Stemonitis (talk) 06:08, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd want a good reason not to believe Govaerts at [3] where he gives C. cordata as a synonym of C. petiolata. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:29, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Peter. Everything is now under Curcuma petiolata, both here and on the Commons. --Stemonitis (talk) 06:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sunflower

What should have been redundant wilinks have been added to Asteraceae. While checking this out, I find that there are separate (and rather similar articles) for sunflower and Helianthus annuus. Lavateraguy (talk) 18:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That would seem to have been half a cut-and-paste move. I've reinstated the redirect at Helianthus annuus, but it seems likely that that should be the correct article title. --Stemonitis (talk) 18:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can somebody identify this plant?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Unknownplantforidentification.jpg It is said to bear violet flowers. It's a climber. The person who gave me said something like Cronja or Kronjia. But he is not sure. Anybody knows it? Thirdmaneye (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where is it from? Tdslk (talk) 18:58, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
India. southern India. tropical.--117.253.198.143 (talk) 19:45, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Might it be cultivated there rather than native to the region? An extremely wild guess is Petrea volubilis. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Could it be garlic vine Mansoa alliacea? This link says it's common in southern India. Tdslk (talk) 21:31, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This looks like a vine being grown on a support trunk, and that is how Piper nigrim, or black pepper is grown in s. India. It is very common, it has similar leaves when young, although darker when mature, I do not know about the flowers, but it is grown cultivated and native to the area I believe, and on plantations it clambers on support trunks with some other s. India agricultural plant. This picture does not give sufficient information for me, though. Eau(W)oo (talk) 03:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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