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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 86.40.200.148 (talk) at 03:04, 8 May 2013 (→Proposed move to "Disappearances of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight": suggestion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Title

Surely there must be a better title than "2013 Ohio missing trio"?203.184.41.226 (talk) 06:52, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Something like "Offender's Name" or "Cleveland captive girls case" perhaps? Paris1127 (talk) 07:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with above anon. How about "[Suspect's name] kidnappings"? (but should wait until the suspect(s) have been officially charged before going that route). Kilopi (talk) 07:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here is how another high profile case was handled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping emphasizing the victims name in the title. However, in this case we have three unrelated victims so the title gets pretty long. Legacypac (talk) 08:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I advise waiting before changing the name. It often happens that some of the early details about breaking news are incomplete or just plain wrong. In a few days it will be easier to arrive at a good title. In the meantime, we have redirects to this page from Amanda Berry, Ariel Castro, Gina DeJesus, and Michele Knight, so finding the page should not be a problem.
If anyone has a reliable source for the other two arrests or middle names of any of the above individuals, I will be happy to create redirects so that anyone searching on those phrases finds this page. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:45, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The current name is descriptive and works. The title should reflect what the press call the case, and when I was looking last night there did not seem to be anything specific. I would suggest using the suspects surnames (as they are brothers) but we would immediately hit a BLP issue.Martin451 (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The use of the discovery date seems rather incorrect, though. Perhaps something like "2000s Cleveland abductions", since they were all abducted then. (Or "disappearances" if the sources don't fully back up abductions/kidnappings for now; I haven't read much on this.) Still a little awkward, but it's more relevant that they went missing in the early 2000s, not that they were found in 2013. ("Cleveland captive girls case" as suggested above seems decent as well; no date is really needed at all, given it spanned many years. Though, "women", since one was 20 when abducted and they were all adults by 2013.) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 15:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, a good title would be ""2000s Cleveland abductions"". --Meluuu (talk) 16:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The use of "girls" would be inappropriate, given the age of Knight - and perhaps even Berry - at the time of their disappearance. One option is to simply used "Kidnappings of..." or "Disappearances of..." and then the full names. Or how about "Tremont, Cleveland, Ohio kidnappings"? Nick Cooper (talk) 15:52, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Using their full names seems excessively long, but makes sense: "Disappearances of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight". I don't think we can describe these all as "kidnappings" yet, since it seems at least one may have initially gone with the men (many sources still just saying things like "went missing"), even if the long-term captivity was obviously against their wills. So using "captive" may be better, since them being held captive for so long seems to be the most notable element (and the captive part is definitely agreed upon by sources), not just that they disappeared; thus "Cleveland captive women case", modified as we both noted to use "women". I don't think we need to mention the neighborhood or state in the title. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 16:15, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a slightly different take on this. Even if they willingly went with the perpetrator initially, once they started to be held against their will it becomes a kidnapping, regardless of how long they are held captive. If the girls/women's names go in the title than they should be in order of disappearance, as the article now lists them.Legacypac (talk) 17:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with above suggestion of title "Disappearances of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight". Until charges are filed or police release a statement confirming the victims were held against their will, the article title should reflect the case file which were 3 missing persons cases (suspected of being related). I really don't like the idea of using the date they were rescued in the title. Mrjack900 (talk) 17:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it is best to wait a week instead of trying to figure out the best name for a fast-breaking event. Imagine that we did as suggested above and renamed it "Cleveland captive girls case", only to find that there are six more captives in Dayton. Or that (insert your favorite politician) was involved. Or that it was all a publicity stunt. Or the first indication of what later turns out to be a huge multi-state serial killer case. Just wait. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The current title is more out-of-whack than an interim title should be, in my opinion, or I'd agree with that. (Particularly calling them a "2013 missing trio", when they are women who disappeared a decade ago and were found in 2013.) Nothing wrong with discussing the title; nobody's (currently) move-warring over it or anything... – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 16:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Given the strong consensus I am seeing for a better title, I withdraw my objection. It isn't the end of the world if we retitle it twice. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a good title in mind yet, want to see how things develop today. I do OPPOSE minor changes to the title like punctuation right now because it just is annoying. Legacypac (talk) 17:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I find myself agreeing with both perspectives, that a better name will probably come from the press soon enough, but that our current page name is awful, clumsy, and inaccurate. As such I would support the idea of using the women's names in full for the time being. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, per Mrjack900's reasoning for just reflecting "missing persons", so I withdraw my suggestion of "captive women case". The question then is, alphabetize, or list in order of disappearance as LegacyPac suggests? They're alphabetized in the lead, so I think alphabetizing in the title makes sense; putting them in the order of disappearance makes it unclear as to why they aren't alphabetized, and doesn't really add anything. So, Disappearances of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight. (And "2013 Cleveland, Ohio, reappearance of three missing women" is just...horrific, though more accurate than the old title!) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 18:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I moved it back while we discuss and have move-protected the page so that doesn't happen again. As soon as we have a consensus here any admin can move it again. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:09, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suspect Sketch from 2004 = Arial Castro?

I don't have the photo uploading skills but if look at the police sketch from 2004 in relation to Gina here (bottom of the page)or bigger here and a photo of the suspect today [1] the similarities are remarkable, especially when you add 9 years of age. The 2004 sketch should be added here as well as the suspect photo - ideally side by side. The sketch is FBI produced so is not copyrighted. Legacypac (talk) 12:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Uploaded to the commons. Gina-suspect-sketch Martin451 (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unless we have good sources saying there is such a similarity, we can't really say there is one. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Martin. I'm trying to insert the sketch beside the related written description as it was part of the early investigation, released 6 days after the abduction and continued to be used on wanted posters. I'm sure the media will make comparisons in time, we don't need to put OR in the article. Legacypac (talk) 16:05, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nor should we rush into making changes to the article when we are in the process of discussing whether to make the changes here on the article talk page. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk)
Huh??? This discussion is about getting help inserting a 2004 FBI sketch that is 100% related to the article. That problem is all solved thanks to several other editors who pitched in. Legacypac (talk) 18:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strange notice at the top of this talk page

It presently says "While the Biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article,.." The three abductees, the child of one, and the three alleged kidnappers are all alive. How does WP:BLP not apply, especially since the title of the article refers to the victims and not the event? Edison (talk) 14:18, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Changed back from BLPO to BLP. The article should be about the event, and BLP applies.Martin451 (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Page protected already?

This seems premature; IP users have made useful edits, and there hasn't been vandalism yet. from WP:SEMI: "Semi-protection should not be used as a preemptive measure against vandalism that has not yet occurred". – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 17:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest asking the protecting admin directly, that would be User:Spartaz. I personally don't care for protecting a page while it is at AFD, but I think I understand the concern, pages on events like this are often a complete circus during the first 48-72 hours. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I left a note on User:Spartaz's talk page pointing here, but figured I'd see if anyone else thought it did require preemptive protection. I wouldn't be surprised either if it does need protection soon enough, if it ends up unprotected...but no reason to block IP editors without cause. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 17:49, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't object to any admin undoing this but policy isn't written for extreme situations and withbthe fast pace of news and editing here the risk is too high. Spartaz Humbug! 17:44, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe, I forgot that our fancy new notification system would let you know I mentioned your name... Beeblebrox (talk) 17:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not in AfD anymore - that was a SNOW KEEP. I did revert one IP edit that made no sense vs other sources, but with a fast moving event and media not on the same page yet, it is very understandable. I support semi-protect for now. Legacypac (talk) 18:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion review

Hey there. Could <noinclude>{{Delrev}}</noinclude> please be added to the header of the page, please? It would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. 68.84.47.109 (talk) 18:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Thryduulf (talk) 18:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move to "Disappearances of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight"

2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio → Disappearances of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight – The current title implies these women went missing in 2013, which is not the case, and the "trio" wording is awkward. Without the suspects being charged or more than just media reports, we should probably avoid noting "captive" or "kidnapping" in the title for now. So let's just state that those three individuals were missing persons, which is the extend of official information so far; it's perhaps not the best long-term title, but as a placeholder until more information becomes available, it's simple and properly descriptive. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 18:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I support a move away from the current title, as the "2013" is misleading. I don't oppose the suggested alternative but I'm not sure it's the best title, there doesn't seem to be a single snappy title the news reports are using (looking at Google News results searching for "Ohio") but Ohio abductions, Ohio kidnappings, Cleveland abductions, Cleveland kidnappings, Cleveland, Ohio abductions and Cleveland, Ohio kidnappings are all used and should all redirect to this article if they aren't used for the title. Thryduulf (talk) 18:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not (yet) particularly concerned with the final title. I created the redirects Cleveland kidnap and Cleveland kidnapping in trying to find this article and support making more redirects. Is it WP:BOLD to make those redlink redirects Thryduulf suggests, or is it just going to make it a pain for a future page move (because a deletion would be required)? -- stillnotelf is invisible 18:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've made the redirects above. As they redirect here and have no other edit history this article can (I believe) be moved over them by any editor. If for any reason they can't (e.g. multiple moves causing edit history) then any administrator can delete the redirect page to make way (seen {{db-move}}). Thryduulf (talk) 19:37, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that the current title is incorrect and clumsy. What about three missing in O-hi-o...? Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 18:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sold on this title. The story is way bigger than the Disappearances - they were found/escaped after all. It is a Kidnapping. Maybe "Kidnapping of Michele Knight, Amanda Berry and Georgina DeJesus" but than again there is still:

  • a missing girl from the neighborhood,
  • a possibly connected unsolved rape (old connection, not today)
  • a young child found in the house belonging to Amanda
  • maybe 5 (or more) additional births in the house
The proposed title vic list already excludes the 6-year-old and 5 other children. Unless you want to argue that kids are just a consequence of the kidnapping, which they are, but they are still vics in their own right.
Maybe Cleveland Multiple Kidnappings'??? Legacypac (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's unclear if these were all initially kidnappings/abductions (one family states one of the victims may have run away)...even though they were obviously held captive, thus suggesting not using those in the title yet. It is not necessarily a kidnapping from what we know, but is a false imprisonment situation. But "2000s Cleveland false imprisonments" obviously isn't great either. (And again, it's probably best to wait for official confirmation of the situation.) I don't think we're going to come up with a snappy title that encapsulates the whole kidnapped/missing women/held captive/later freed situation, thus just mentioning they disappeared and addressing the rest in the article. I agree, it's not that great...but consider it a placeholder until we have more detailed information. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 18:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We could also try a more encompassing title as well. Maybe "Ariel Castro kidnappings" or "Castro kidnappings" since all the victims were kidnapped and held by the same perpetrator(s)? Unless we wait for the official filing of charges and what not. Rickrollerz (talk) 19:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Legacypac makes an excellent point about how this is about more than the kidnapping/captivity. How about Disappearance and rescue of Cleveland women or Disappearance and rescue of Michele Knight, Amanda Berry and Georgina DeJesus? - Nbpolitico (talk) 19:08, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:BLP, I think we would have to wait for a conviction to consider that, not even just charges being filed. There's no way we can reasonably put the suspect's name in the title. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 3:04 pm, Today (UTC−4)
I would support Disappearance and rescue of Michele Knight, Amanda Berry and Georgina DeJesus, though it's a little wordy (I don't really care if it's alphabetized or in chronological order myself); just "Cleveland women" is a little too vague. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 19:11, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed on both counts - Nbpolitico (talk) 19:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Try Google searching "Cleveland Kidnappings". No question that term is related to this case by RS. I suggest adding the word Multiple because, obviously, there are other kidnappings in the city, but very few if any multiple kidnappings. It also gets away from naming some but not all the victims problem. Legacypac (talk) 19:31, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FBI (still) believe Summers abductor same man. [2]... Legacypac (talk) 20:08, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move at this point until story has matured and name like "Cleveland Kidnappings" (or whatever) is settled on by the media over the next week or so. μηδείς (talk) 20:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I considered making an argument of "wait for the media" myself. I didn't, because...we are the media! It's a fair bet that if Wikipedia settles early on a particular nomenclature, it will have a significant effect on coverage. -- stillnotelf is invisible 20:32, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alternate suggestion since this isn't getting much traction. Just remove 2013 for now: "Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio", since they didn't disappear in 2013. It's still not great, but as a temporary name it's at least accurate, and a minimal change. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 20:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that "2013" is an unneeded qualifier, unless there was some other notable event in Cleveland's past where three abducted women suddenly re-appeared. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a move to "Disappearance and rescue of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight." That seems like a descriptive, if not snappy, title for the article. In time a snappier common name for the case may emerge from mainstream media coverage. Edison (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio" is so wrong on so many levels:

--2013 the events happened from 2002-2013 (not just 2013) in Cleveland, --we don't need to say Ohio as Cleveland is well known without the state --they are not missing, they are found. Also the child was never missing. --not a trio as there were at least 4 victims 3 woman+child(ren) preceeding comment by Legacypac

  • I think there is consensus to remove the year from the current title, if nothing else, it was very silly to put it there.Martin451 (talk) 22:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a move to "Disappearance and rescue of Amanda Berry, Georgina DeJesus, and Michele Knight" it is a bit cumbersome, but is descriptive and would work with the article. I suspect that other details will come up, however this title covers why this is notable, three young adults missing for a decade. Unless more victims are found alive, then there will be little reason to change this. It does not cover the name of Amanda's daughter, but that should be kept out of the article.Martin451 (talk) 22:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Almost any change that gets the current title "2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio" done gone. Sgerbic (talk) 22:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support proposed title or the (and rescue) variant. I don't care for either 2013 (ignores the decade of captivity between missing and yesterday) or trio (they weren't taken as a trio, and their numbers grew as they were impregnated and gave birth). Kilopi (talk) 23:15, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest either Cleveland kidnappings which already exists, or Seymour Avenue kidnappings. Mentioning some of the victims definitely violates WP:CRIME and WP:VICTIM. μηδείς (talk) 02:38, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Section break and suggestion

2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio → Berry – DeJesus – Knight confinements – There is another problem with the suggested title. "Disappearance", as suggested above, is defined as vanish; cease. But they are no longer "vanished" and haven't "ceased". "2013" is wrong as explained. "Missing" is wrong because they aren't. "Trio" is also wrong as explained above. I suggest "confinement" as the article's infobox uses this. The notability rests on their having been confined. They never really "disappeared" as such, they were still there somewhere but hidden, from their own perspectives they always existed. This is also more concise and gets the article subject's message across. 86.40.200.148 (talk) 03:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Daughter slashed granddaughter's neck

How do we want to handle this chilling connected story? "Several media outlets also report that a younger daughter, Emily Castro, is in an Indiana prison for slashing the throat of her then-11-month-old daughter in 2008. Indiana prison records confirm Emily Castro is currently serving 25 years for attempted murder."

Shouldn't be included; not directly related, unless there's some suggestion her father was involved in that crime. Robofish (talk) 19:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
[1] [2] the link does not seem conclusive, and there is not reason at the moment to include it.Martin451 (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Let's look at the sequence (which is spread over the article right now):
  • 2002 Girl #1 disappears
  • 2003 Girl #2 disappears
  • 2004 Girl #3 disappears
  • 2005 beats up and threatens to kill ex wife, and to quote her lawyer, Castro "frequently abducts (his) daughters and keeps them from mother"
  • 2007 Ashley Summers disappears (thought by FBI to be same suspect)
  • 2008 one of Castro's daughters attempts to murder her child

Legacypac (talk) 22:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the point of including every crime committed by any relative. (Is Fidel a distant cousin?) Edison (talk) 22:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In The News Nomination

The article has been nominated for the In The News section of the front page. It could use clean-up, and editors can comment on the nomination here. μηδείς (talk) 20:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not in Tremont?

The street address given in the article lies outside the boundaries of the Tremont neighborhood, as given on Tremont's Wikipedia page. I removed the reference in good faith. Wainstead (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Similar cases

To add in the "See also" section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.2.243.208 (talk) 23:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Photos

Photos reflecting these three will, when available, spruce up the article.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Is this map something that we can use? If so, have at it.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:13, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's something about the notice ont he page that says "Map data © 2013 Google" that makes me suspect we can't use it in the article itself, although it could be added as an external link. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request: incorrect spelling of youngest brother's name

Please correct spelling of the 50-year-old brother's first name. It is Onil, not Oneil. You can see verification here from Cleveland's major newspaper, The Plain Dealer, which is the primary media outlet for this story. Here are other reliable sources that confirm the spelling, including New York Daily News, USA Today, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, and CNN: [3][4][5][6][7][8]. The name is currently spelled incorrectly five times in the article, including in the infobox. Please fix. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 01:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please remove the source, Breakingnews.com, used to cite the sentence: "A 52-year-old male named Ariel Castro and his two brothers, Pedro Castro, 54, and Oneil Castro, 50, were arrested on May 6, 2013, shortly after the women escaped" in the "Arrests and charges" section. It's a poor source and doesn't even link to a story. Breakingnews.com is simply a directory that links to other websites. Thanks. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 01:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And in the "Pedro Castro and Oneil Castro" section, the source used, which is the Washington Post article I linked to above, even shows the correct spelling of Onil, yet the text in the article says Oneil. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 01:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article has been updated to reflect the correct name. Also, I replaced the "breaking news reference" with a more credible reference in regards to the arrest. Mike V • Talk 02:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to you and Martin451 for the quick fixes. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2320564/Ariel-Castro-pictured-Suspect-Amanda-Berry-Gina-DeJesus-Michelle-Knight-kidnap-arrested--BROTHERS.html
  2. ^ http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/fbi_agents_at_seymour_avenue_h.html
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