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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Maxval (talk | contribs) at 08:39, 28 July 2014 (→‎Support). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former featured listList of sovereign states is a former featured list. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page and why it was removed. If it has improved again to featured list standard, you may renominate the article to become a featured list.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 22, 2006Featured list candidatePromoted
November 29, 2008Featured list removal candidateDemoted
March 3, 2009Featured list candidateNot promoted
July 16, 2011Articles for deletionKept
March 12, 2012Featured list candidateNot promoted
Current status: Former featured list


Donetsk & Luhansk

The Donetsk People's Republic has declared independence on 7 April 2014. The Luhansk People's Republic has declared independence on 27 April 2014. They've both had referendums yesterday, showing support for their declarations of independence. They also control territory, and it seems that they recognize eachother. Both states are receiving a lot of attention. I think they should be included in the list. Thoughts? [Soffredo] Journeyman 4 11:59, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should wait a bit longer to see if the two also want to become part of Russia or remain independent.At least in Luhansk they are already thinking about holding a referendum to join the Russian Federation. A different scenario could be that the two merge and form a new state called "New Russia",so I think we should wait until there is further clarity about their future.Engel1983 (talk) 13:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are many ambiguities what the separatists have actually declared. In other hand, the question in referendum has been dubious (see: Donetsk status referendum, 2014#Question). I support opinion, that we should wait for same clarification of the situation.

For the benefit of those who may not be aware of what is required for entities to be included according to the inclusion criteria set out in the article, the rule is that we need evidence either:

  • That the putative state considers itself to be a sovereign state, and
  • That the putative state is often regarded as a state according to the declarative theory. This means that we actually have to have evidence that reliable sources - excluding those affiliated to the group concerned - have assessed the situation against the declarative theory and that a state exists. It should go without saying (but on the basis of previous discussion does not) that Wikipedia editors are not reliable sources, and their judgement as to whether the declarative theory is met is insufficient.

Or:

  • That the putative state has been recognised as a sovereign state by at least one member state of the United Nations. So, recognising each other does not count.

Soffredo has started numerous similar discussions over recent months, and these criteria have been pointed out every time. It is difficult to believe that s/he does not already know that the sources thus far provided are not anything like enough for these groups to be included. Kahastok talk 17:49, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Its not ambiguous any more, both seperatist governments in Donetsk and Luhansk have declared independence.[[1]]. I can provide more sources if necessary.XavierGreen (talk) 22:04, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Concerning to the Donetsk People's Republic, I edited references, but in what ways does it satisfy the 4th condition of the Declarative Theory of Statehood? (a capacity to enter into relations with other states). It doesn't have any relations with any other state!Mondolkiri1talk 03:14, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair it's capacity to, not having actual relations. Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 06:46, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At the very least we should see how this pans out before adding. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 07:49, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I guess only if Russia is suicidal, it will also annex Donetsk!(I hope I'm not violating any Wikipedia rules by writing this opinion in the Talk page)Mondolkiri1 (talk) 15:41, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Russia annexes Crimea,just its people have right for self-determination and they of course don't want to be regularly killed by Right Sector and other nationalist movements. Russia doesn't want to have more problems in their foreign affairs, and it will be very hard for Russian government to decide will they "annex" Donetsk and Luhansk. It's only my opinion, but it seems Donetsk and Luhansk satisfy one (or more) criteria for inclusion: they have determined territories and boundaries, they have population and government. We can change the list data in any moment if it will be necessary. What can you say? Why it musn't be included? Only because it is not clear whatwillhappen in future? The data must be at this moment! Crimea,for example, was included for only 4 days! User02062000 (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You cite "they have determined territories and boundaries, they have population and government" as evidence that they meet one criterion for inclusion.
But that is not evidence that any criterion is met. That they may have such features is not important per se, if no source brings them together to suggest that a state in fact exists.
In accordance with WP:NOR, the rule is that they must be often regarded as meeting the declarative theory. That means that we cannot say that a state exists according to the declarative theory unless a reliable source has actually examined the evidence and concluded that a state exists according to the declarative theory. The whole point of WP:NOR is that Wikipedia should never be the first independent source to come to such a conclusion, as suggested by some above.
Crimea was included for a day, because it was recognised by Russia, and thus met the other criterion (recognition as a sovereign state by a UN member state). Kahastok talk 21:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Kahastok. The same should go for List of states with limited recognition, where Donetsk keeps getting added. TDL (talk) 21:45, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, then let's remove Donetsk and Luhansk from that page! User02062000 (talk) 15:49, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the DPR problem is that we don’t know what it control. Media reports that they control same cities and towns, but in other hand in these cities and towns offices subordinates to the Ukrainian Government are still operate. On the other hand in some areas under control of Ukrainian forces DRP is still operate. In Donetsk (and Lugansk) we have an overlapping control of both sides of this conflict – only certain places (such buildings) in cities and towns are de facto controlled by one side (DPR or (pro-)Ukrainian authorities), and all other areas are de facto uncontrolled. Aotearoa (talk) 06:54, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, here you are a [2] link (russian) proving that President of the partially recognized South Ossetia recognizes LPR. I think now we can include it in List of sovereign states as it meets 2nd criteria, and put it into some other lists in the category together with NKR and PMR. User02062000 (talk) 11:23, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked at the link, but it doesn't change things. The rule is "recognised as a sovereign state by at least one UN member state". South Ossetia is not a UN member state, so it is insufficient. Kahastok talk 18:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, agreed. I haven't looked at the criteria carefullu, sorry. User02062000 (talk) 18:55, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But we have Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh? [Soffredo] Yeoman 07:57, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Soffredo. NKR and PMR have the same status as LPR and DPR. Of course, Luhansk and Donetsk have only few months of history and it can't be compared to NKR and PMR, but they meet the same criteria. I think they can't be considered non-states, they have already been added to russian list of unrecognized states. Anyway, we can remove them if their status will change. User02062000 (talk) 08:18, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

July 2014

I found a source calling the Donetsk People's Republic a country. "Ukraine crisis: A country is born in Donetsk... but not for long" Thought editors here won't agree to add it right away, I thought this article was worth sharing for when we finally agree to add these two partially-recognized states. [Soffredo] Yeoman 04:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WESTERN NIGERIA

I Tom991 (Tom) removed the section on Western Nigeria late this afternoon on 5/23 at 5:39 PM EST. When has there been a nation called Western Nigeria? I only know of Nigeria! thanks, tom991 (talk)

West Papua

The Republic of West Papua meets the constitutive theory of statehood as it is recognized by Vanuatu. As such i have added it to the page, supported by sources. I have also added it and started a discussion on the Talk:List_of_states_with_limited_recognition page.XavierGreen (talk) 03:40, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 28 June 2014

Please delete the redirect page "list of Nations" in order to create a new wiki under the same title. I am using current wiki pages including "list of sovereign states", "list of stateless nations", and other wikis of lists of various indigenous ethnic groups in the Americas, Africa, and Australia to create a comprehensive list of nations. Nations differ from states in that they are a group of people with a unique language, heritage, shared history, and indigenous homeland. Wikipedia currently has no page detailing the various nations of the world, which also differ significantly from ethnic groups. Wikipedia should have a page for a comprehensive list of nations. 69.86.101.218 (talk) 14:12, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Sorry, but you will need a consensus for this before I can lift the protection. I suggest starting by advertising this discussion on the talk pages of the lists you mention to see what editors there think. You could also advertise this discussion at the WikiProjects listed in the templates at the top of the page. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 14:27, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Niue and the Cook Islands

After much discussion a few months ago it was established (with sources)that Niue and the Cook Islands do not fall under the criterion of declarative theory of statehood. Since they never declared that. Why was the language confirming that removed from the article since? Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:41, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the removed sentence. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:44, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ISIS yet again

An editor is edit warring the Islamic State into this article, and has made it clear that he does not wish to "waste time discussing this". In the view of editors here, does it qualify this time? Kahastok talk 20:50, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the sources I've provided:
  • Cole Bunzel (January 30, 2014). "The Islamic State of Disunity: Jihadism Divided". Jihadica. Retrieved July 3, 2014. Nonetheless, the fighting has aggravated intra-jihadi tensions as the ongoing hostilities focus attention on ISIS's unique claim to statehood and the inviolable sovereignty that this implies.
  • Jonathan Spyer (February 23, 2014). "Behind the lines: Holding back al-Qaida". The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved July 3, 2014. It has also not escaped Israel's attention that a de facto sovereign jihadi-controlled zone now exists in eastern Syria's Raqqa province, stretching into western Anbar province in Iraq. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  • "How real is ISIS' statehood bid in the Middle East?". Al Arabiya. July 2, 2014. Retrieved July 3, 2014. But, they have as good a claim to statehood in the area as either the governments of Iraq or Syria
Now I don't get why the Islamic State wouldn't be included since we have sources. [Soffredo] Yeoman 20:53, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Because they don't say or suggest that IS is either "often regarded as satisfying the declarative theory of statehood" or "recognised as a sovereign state by at least one UN member state". Kahastok talk 20:55, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But they're sources showing that the Islamic State is sovereign. I don't get why we can't just include it. [Soffredo] Yeoman 21:01, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We have criteria for inclusion, so that we can be clear about what we mean by "sovereign". For example, all US states are formally "sovereign". I do not believe it is sensible to abandon the inclusion criteria in favour of listing anything that anyone considers "sovereign". Kahastok talk 21:10, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well we're talking about the Islamic State, which is an unrecognized de facto sovereign state, not a federal state. [Soffredo] Yeoman 21:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It could be a legitimate inclusion since it is a self declared state with no international recognition. Does it have a defined territory? And a population? Probably. And it has declared independence. Now I don't agree with the Montevideo thing since it has only been recognized by a few states in North and South America, but if Montevideo is the reason for inclusion..... So be it! Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:50, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any sources that say that it meets the standard of Montevideo? Note that we as editors are not allowed to interpret Montevideo for ourselves, so the source actually has to mention the declarative theory or Montevideo. Saying, "Does it have a defined territory? And a population? Probably. And it has declared independence." is not enough without such a source. Soffredo knows this, as we've been through this many times with him. Kahastok talk 06:21, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Al Arabyia article describes what a sovereign state is and how the Islamic State is one. What more do you want for its inclusion? [Soffredo] Yeoman 15:02, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A source that says that it meets Montevideo or the declarative theory, perhaps? Or evidence that it has been recognised by a UN member state? The Al-Arabiya source does not do this. That shouldn't be a secret, given how many times it's been explained to you. Kahastok talk 21:29, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should have a vote between editors similar to when Niue and the Cook Islands were added? [Soffredo] Yeoman 22:55, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should have a vote, either on inclusion for the IS or on the details of the inclusion criteria, whichever senior editors think is most appropriate. I feel it is contrary to WP:COMMONSENSE to exclude the IS solely on the basis of sources not making explicit reference to the terms "declarative theory" or "Montevideo". Senior editors' efforts to maintain a cool-headed compliance to the criteria is much appreciated, but it seems to me that rejection of the IS from the list no longer has a clear consensus. GeoEvan (talk) 20:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with having the vote, as I suggested it before. We should also have a poll for the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, which have managed to gain limited recognition. [Soffredo] Yeoman 05:01, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Being a sovereign state is a Big Deal. This list is intended to include only those states that have a clear and genuine claim to sovereign status under international law. There are two ways that this are measured - the declarative and constitutive theories.
If we adopt a standard lower than that, then we indulge in original research by claiming as "states" entities that fail to meet the standard set by reliable sources.
We cannot claim that a state meets the declarative theory if we do not have any evidence that anyone else in the world thinks it meets the declarative theory. If we were to allow ISIS, Donetsk or Luhansk based on current evidence, we would be the first independent source anywhere to conclude that they meet the declarative theory. WP:NOR says we can't be the first to come to such a conclusion - and that surely applies particularly when the conclusion is as Big a Deal as this one is.
I'd finally note what TDL wrote here, and note that I agree with it. Kahastok talk 20:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an interesting article which examines ISIS's claims to statehood and concludes "However you approach the question of this group’s statehood, the answer is almost assuredly, no, the Islamic State is not a state." TDL (talk) 17:34, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Now you can have this article explaining what a state is, and how the Islamic State is both a state and a rebel group. [Soffredo] Yeoman 23:58, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's an interesting one that does address the issue head on, but they never actually say ISIS is a state. About as close as they get is "they have as good a claim to statehood in the area as either the governments of Iraq or Syria", but they also say "Syrian or Iraqi governments represent states in a U.N. council meeting much more than they represent actual existing states in Mosul, in Tikrit, in Fallujah, or in ar-Raqqah." So saying ISIS is more of a state than a non-existing state isn't all that conclusive. TDL (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A vote should still occur for the Islamic State, the Donetsk People's Republic, and the Lugansk People's Republic. We have sources calling them states and the latter two have limited recognition. [Soffredo] Yeoman 15:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
...by which you mean they have been recognised by South Ossetia, whose claim to sovereignty is itself mostly dismissed, and which is irrelevant to the criteria in place.
I do not believe it is appropriate to have a vote as to whether to follow basic policy or not. Kahastok talk 16:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Audit needed

This article looks like it could use an audit.

I came here after seeing this edit to the Cook Islands article.

This article says that the 206 states listed are divided into three categories: 193 member states, two observer states, and 11 other states. However,

  • The "UN member states or observer states" group in the table is divided according to the "Membership within the UN System" column into the following groups by label:
    • UN member state (I didn't count them)
    • Blank/unlabeled: 8 entries (colored white which, according to the legend, means that they are member states) It looks like these are intended as redirect hints, but they include Abkhazia, Cook Islands, Niue, Northern Cyprus, Taiwan which don't seem to be UN member states.
    • observer state: 2 (Vatican City and Palestine)

Also, from the info in the edit to the Cook Islands article linked above, there is a consensus in that article that the Cook Islands are not entirely sovereign.

I didn't spend a lot of time trying to figure out the tricky hidden content in some table cells which seems intended to coerce the sorting, but it looked to me as if the the grouping identifier and redirect rows in the table sort confusingly. Perhaps the sorting could be better coerced using the {{sort}} template. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 07:50, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The redirects are for non-UN states, they lead to the entry lower down in the table. There was consensus that in some cases the Cook Islands and Niue functioned as sovereign states, which is why they are on this list. There is indeed attempts to coerce sorting, if you think you can improve it please go ahead. CMD (talk) 12:37, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Future vote

State Claims
statehood? 		Recognition? Declarative Theory requirements Additional sources
referencing sovereignty
Defined
territory 		Permanent
population 		Government Capacity to enter
into relations
 Islamic State (ISIL) Yes[1][2] No[3] Yes[4] Yes Yes[5] Yes[5] [6][7][8][9][10]
 Donetsk People's Republic (DNR) Yes[11][12] Yes[13][14] Yes[15][16] Yes Yes[17] Yes[14] [18]
 Lugansk People's Republic (LNR) Yes[19][20] Yes[13][21] Yes[22][16] Yes Yes[23] Yes[21]

A future vote should take place between editors on if we should include the ISIL, DNR, and/or LNR (just like we did for Niue and the Cook Islands). I've added this table showing how these three states have fulfilled the declarative theory. [Soffredo] Yeoman 16:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A more accurate table per the inclusion criteria would look like this:
Claimed state Claims statehood and sourced as
satisfying the declarative theory 		Recognition by
a UN member state
ISIS No No
Donetsk No No
Luhansk No No
Unless you've actually managed to come up with a source that claims that any of these meet the declarative theory, unlike the last few dozen times you've brought these up?
As I noted above, I object to the notion that we should have a vote as to whether to follow WP:NOR or not. Kahastok talk 16:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe have a vote whether to follow WP:COMMONSENSE as well? Also, you could look at the sources for ISIL as one of them explains what a state is. [Soffredo] Yeoman 16:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Common sense would seem to me to say that in highly-controversial situations like the ones we're discussing, we're best off applying the letter and spirit of the rules we have as rigorously as we can. There is no conflict between them: both hold that we can't claim that any purported state meets the declarative theory unless an external source has already done that.
I note that we already have source for ISIS that discusses it explicitly in terms of the declarative theory here. It says that it does not meet those rules. Common sense would say to me that we should not overrule it based on nothing but our own amateur interpretations of international law. Kahastok talk 17:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just go ahead and start the poll. [Soffredo] Yeoman 17:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Poll

Questions

  1. Do you believe the  Islamic State should be included in the list?
  2. Do you believe the  Donetsk People's Republic should be included in the list?
  3. Do you believe the  Lugansk People's Republic should be included in the list?
  4. Do you believe the criteria for inclusion should be updated to include these or other states?

Answer with either Support inclusion or Oppose inclusion, followed by your reasons, and then your signature.

1. Islamic State

Support

  1. Support inclusion As according to the table I created above and many previous discussions. [Soffredo] Yeoman 17:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support inclusion The Islamic state has a hold on territory. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support inclusion Considering the strong foothold the Islamic State has, it looks like they are here to stay. They are also making their voices heard whether we like it or not. It's only matter of time before their sovereignty is eventually recognized at this point. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 04:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support inclusion Being that they have a stable population (with a some emmigration due to the crisis), an embassy, a military, a capital, a stable economy, etc. I think it's time. To leave them off this list could be viewed as biased. I also support Supersaiyen's points. Newyorkbrad has a good point as well too though. Will the critera be met soon? Yes. Are they going to be conquered, over-run, over-taken or just die off? No. It's time now in my opinion. For more evidnece see Talk:List of states with limited recognition#List of states with limited recognition. Rightswatcher (talk) 05:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support inclusion They have a stable military, economy, government, population etc., and they have quite the hold of their lands. It's only a matter of time until they're officially a sovereign state. Petrikov (talk) 06:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support inclusion They are a stable state.

Oppose

  1. Oppose inclusion Unrecognized by anyone, and too soon. Reevaluate in a couple of months. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:03, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note that Somaliland is unrecognized by anyone but it's included in the list. And how is this too soon knowing that the group started in 2003, and the original Islamic State of Iraq was proclaimed in 2006, while the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant declared independence at the beginning of this year (it was the caliphate that was later established)? [Soffredo] Yeoman 01:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That ISIS was proclaimed years ago is irrelevant. The Principality of Sealand was proclaimed decades ago. ISIS's claims to statehood is the relevant issue, and that is a recent development. Wiki is WP:NOTNEWS: we must wait for sources to reach the conclusion that it is a sovereign state rather than rushing to make our own unsourced guesses at what the sources may one day say. TDL (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose inclusion - the table above does not support inclusion. The provided sources simply report that some territory is de facto controlled by this faction. Other speculate that it might become a state in the future - but see WP:CRYSTAL.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose - This is a list of sovereign states under international law. No one has yet to provided any sources which say that ISIS is a sovereign state under international law. Claiming that they are, in the absence of any sources, is WP:OR. TDL (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose As with all affirmations of reality, the onus is on the contender. The weight of opinions for inclusion include irrelevant statements of fact such as the physical possession of territory, the opportunity for ideological projection, and the dubious prediction of modest longevity. The rest are factually incorrect: the presences of a military, a diplomatic catalyst, the stability in economy and demography, and an appeal to fairness. The corpus of a nation is the statute of laws manifesting themselves into a system of government. This reality, regardless of international disregard, does not yet exist in the swath of land under the nominal control of the ISIS religious militia. If and when this changes we should reexamine the issue. GraniteSand (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Strong oppose There is already a section of "Groups which control territory" in the article List of active rebel groups which is the appropriate one to include these groups, and where they are included. To be a sovereign state, even with limited recognition (List of states with limited recognition) they have to 1 - satisfy the declarative theory of statehood or 2 - be recognized as a state by at least on UN member state, as it's described in that article, and those conditions are not satisfied by neither entity (though Novorossiya is recognized by South Ossetia, but this one is not a UN member state) Mondolkiri1 (talk) 06:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose pending some evidence that they meet the inclusion criteria, i.e. that says they satisfy the declarative theory or are recognised by a UN member state. Per WP:NOR, Wikipedia should never be the first independent source to come to the conclusion that a state exists according to the declarative theory as is proposed. The only evidence we have that analyses international law in terms of the declarative theory actually comes to the opposite conclusion (that ISIS does not meet the criteria). Kahastok talk 07:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

2. Donetsk People's Republic

Support

  1. Support inclusion As according to the table I created above and many previous discussions. [Soffredo] Yeoman 17:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support inclusion They are being supported by a superpower (Russia). Just like Crimea, it looks like they will eventually succeed in becoming independant or part of the Russian Federation; in fact, you might even argue that they already are. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 04:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)ú[reply]
  3. Support inclusion They are a stable state. --maxval (talk) 08:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose inclusion Barely recognized by anyone, exceptionally fluid and unsettled situation, and the existence of the state appears to be largely for propaganda purposes (this is not a fait accompi in the same way the annexation of Crimea is). Reevaluate in a couple of months. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose inclusion The case here is even weaker than for the Islamic state above as essentially no sources are provided to even try and buttress the claim. And arguing "per many previous discussions" (What discussions? Where? Why should we care about them?) is specious.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose - This is a list of sovereign states under international law. No one has yet to provide any sources which say that the Donetsk PR is a sovereign state under international law. Claiming that they are, in the absence of any sources, is WP:OR. TDL (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose - This is a list of sovereign states under international law, and the DNR is a wholly unrecognized sate. Furthermore, if we are to discuss 'sovereignty', then the DNR holds no sovereignty. It has no government functions, its claimed territory is receding by the day, and has no citizenry. Further, it is a member of the "New Russia" federation, which makes New Russia the sovereign of the DNR, which is just a province. Even their soldiers fly the confederate flag rather than the DNR flag these days. --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 04:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose for the same reasons that I expressed above, concerning to the Islamic State.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 06:51, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose pending some evidence that they meet the inclusion criteria, i.e. that says they satisfy the declarative theory or are recognised by a UN member state. Per WP:NOR, Wikipedia should never be the first independent source to come to the conclusion that a state exists according to the declarative theory as is proposed, and South Ossetia is not a UN member state. Kahastok talk 07:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]


3. Lugansk People's Republic

Support

  1. Support inclusion As according to the table I created above and many previous discussions. [Soffredo] Yeoman 17:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Lugansk People's Republic is even forming their own football club and competing against FK Novi Sad. (1) [Soffredo] Yeoman 01:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then go add it to List of men's national association football teams. But having a national team doesn't make you a sovereign state. Just ask Scotland. TDL (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support inclusion Just like Crimea, they are being supported by a superpower (Russia) and will eventually succeed. This is not the first time this happened and it most likely won't be the last. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 04:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose inclusion Barely recognized by anyone, exceptionally fluid and unsettled situation, and the existence of the state appears to be largely for propaganda purposes (this is not a fait accompi in the same way the annexation of Crimea is). Reevaluate in a couple of months. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose inclusion and this one is even weaker than the Donetsk one. Per Kahastok's more accurate table.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose - This is a list of sovereign states under international law. No one has yet to provide any sources which say that the Lugansk PR is a sovereign state under international law. Claiming that they are, in the absence of any sources, is WP:OR. TDL (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose - This is a list of sovereign states under international law, and the LNR is a wholly unrecognized sate. Furthermore, if we are to discuss 'sovereignty', then the LNR holds no sovereignty. It has no government functions, its claimed territory is receding by the day, and has no citizenry. Further, it is a member of the "New Russia" federation, which makes New Russia the sovereign of the LNR, which is just a province. --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 04:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose for the same reasons that I expressed above, concerning to the Islamic State.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 06:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)Besides that, in that case you'd also have to include, for instance Al-Shabaab, and eventually the Principality of Sealand, Principality of Hutt River, so on. Concerning to Novorossiya, the only particular aspect that differentiates it from the others is that in fact it's recognized by one state with limited recognition, which is South Ossetia, not recognized by the UN.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 07:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose pending some evidence that they meet the inclusion criteria, i.e. that says they satisfy the declarative theory or are recognised by a UN member state. Per WP:NOR, Wikipedia should never be the first independent source to come to the conclusion that a state exists according to the declarative theory as is proposed, and South Ossetia is not a UN member state. Kahastok talk 07:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

4. Criteria for inclusion

Support

  1. Support Donetsk and Lugansk both received recognition by South Ossetia, but weren't put into the List of states with limited recognition under the "Non-UN member states recognised only by non-UN members" section. We shouldn't let any sort of recognition allow a state to be included (for example, if Transnistria were to recognize Sealand). However, I think states recognized by those listed under the "Non-UN member states recognised by at least one UN member" section should be included. If Vatican City were to recognize a state, should we really hesitate to include it because Vatican isn't a UN member? Would we dismiss Taiwan's decision to recognize a state despite its own de facto and de jure international recognition? We should at least include states recognized by UN observers (Palestine & Vatican) and/or states who participate in UN specialized agencies (Cook Islands, Kosovo, Niue, & Taiwan). These states are highly respected in the international community and their diplomatic relations shouldn't be ignored. The second criteria should read something like "recognized by one UN member or observer", "recognized by a state in the UN system", or "recognized by a state recognized by at least one UN member". This change would allow for Donetsk and Lugansk to be added. As for the Islamic State, we could use the result of the poll (if in favor) and the many sources talking about its de facto sovereignty. [Soffredo] Yeoman 17:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support But it should be on a different section from the internationally recognized sovereign states perhaps with Soffredo's table above. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 04:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose I don't think further tinkering with the criteria is going to be productive. It is a matter of applying the criteria giving due weight to an entity's legal status and its practical-world status, as reported in reliable sources and interpreted through a lens of common sense. And no matter what rules we write, there will always be a borderline case somewhere. I've been watching the debates on this page for eight years and I fear that another rewriting of the recognition criteria is simply not a productive use of the community's limited time and resources. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What "limited time" do we have? Fixing the criteria could fix many problems, making it so that we'd have to spend less time discussing and arguing on talk pages? [Soffredo] Yeoman 01:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose There's no point to this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose - There is nothing wrong with the current criteria, which accurately reflects what sources say on the matter. While the suggestion that perhaps we should include states recognized by UN Observers as well is a reasonable one, it makes the criteria more complicated with little to no benefit. Including second order fringe states, which are themselves only recognized by fringe states, opens the door to all kinds non-states. I fail to see any difference between South Ossetia recognizing DPR/LPR and Transnistria recognizing Sealand, which Soffredo tries to argue above. TDL (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Soffredo seems to imply that adding UN observers or members of UN specialised agencies would mean including Donetsk and Luhansk. It would not (as South Ossetia falls into neither camp). Kahastok talk 07:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose I already expressed the reasons above, concerning to the Islamic State.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 06:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose. Nothing wrong with the current rules. Once you've got a purported state where no academic, expert or journalist has ever analysed international law and concluded a state exists, and which is recognised by no UN member, you're pretty much by definition including based on a tiny minority POV and thus failing WP:NPOV. Kahastok talk 07:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: Should Niue and the Cook Islands be included, since their statute seems to be similar to some associated states of USA in the Pacific Ocean, and they might eventually satisfy the conditions that are exposed for the inclusion in the List of states with limited recognition?Mondolkiri1 (talk) 07:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)Mondolkiri1 (talk) 07:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Iraqi City in Hands of Al-Qaida-Linked Militants". Voice of America. 4 January 2014. Retrieved 16 January 2014.
  2. ^ Withnall, Adam (29 June 2014). "Iraq crisis: Isis changes name and declares its territories a new Islamic state with 'restoration of caliphate' in Middle East". The Independent. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  3. ^ Note that Somaliland is included in the list but does not have any recognition.
  4. ^ ISIL claims all Muslim-inhabited regions of the world.
  5. ^ a b Serene Assir (20 June 2014). "Iraqis, Saudis call the shots in ISIS 'capital' Raqqa". The Daily State. Retrieved 26 July 2014. "In Raqqa, ISIS has offices for everything you can imagine: health, education, security, Islamic aid, tribal relations management, and even an embassy of the emirate of Aleppo," according to Omar al-Huweidi, a writer and ISIS expert from Raqqa pushed out by the group to Turkey. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  6. ^ Frank Gardner (8 July 2014). "'Jihadistan': Can Isis militants rule seized territory?". BBC. Which leaves the prospect of a violent, extremist, well-armed, well-funded and religiously intolerant militia becoming a permanent part of the Middle East landscape, a sort of de facto "jihadistan".
  7. ^ Cole Bunzel (January 30, 2014). "The Islamic State of Disunity: Jihadism Divided". Jihadica. Nonetheless, the fighting has aggravated intra-jihadi tensions as the ongoing hostilities focus attention on ISIS's unique claim to statehood and the inviolable sovereignty that this implies.
  8. ^ Jonathan Spyer (February 23, 2014). "Behind the lines: Holding back al-Qaida". The Jerusalem Post. It has also not escaped Israel's attention that a de facto sovereign jihadi-controlled zone now exists in eastern Syria's Raqqa province, stretching into western Anbar province in Iraq. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  9. ^ "How real is ISIS' statehood bid in the Middle East?". Al Arabiya. July 2, 2014. But, they have as good a claim to statehood in the area as either the governments of Iraq or Syria
  10. ^ Daniel Byman (13 June 2014). "ISIS is on its way to quasi-statehood with treasure, oil, recruits — and for the first time ever, an address". National Post. Indeed, unlike Al-Qaeda, ISIS is on its way to controlling a quasi-state, exercising de facto sovereignty over a territory, even if unrecognized by the international community. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  11. ^ "Activists declare Donetsk republic after capturing regional administration in Eastern Ukraine". RT News. 7 April 2014. {{cite news}}: |archive-url= requires |archive-date= (help)
  12. ^ "Pro-Russians: Ukraine's Donetsk 'Independent'". News.sky.com. 2014-05-12.
  13. ^ a b See also: International recognition of Novorossiya
  14. ^ a b "South Ossetia recognizes independence of Donetsk People's Republic". ITAR-TASS. 27 June 2014. Retrieved 28 June 2014.
  15. ^ DNR claims the Donetsk Oblast
  16. ^ a b http://rapsinews.com/legislation_news/20140716/271732854.html
  17. ^ http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_28/Donetsk-Peoples-republic-ready-to-begin-peace-talks-when-Ukrainian-forces-drawn-off-8655/
  18. ^ Kim Sengupta (13 May 2014). "Ukraine crisis: A country is born in Donetsk... but not for long". The Independent. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  19. ^ ITAR-TASS: World - Federalization supporters in Luhansk proclaim people's republic
  20. ^ Luhansk region declares independence at rally in Luhansk
  21. ^ a b Lugansk launching negotiations to establish diplomatic relations with S Ossetia - News - World - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russi...
  22. ^ LNR claims the Luhansk Oblast
  23. ^ Self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic elects head, passes constitution — RT News
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