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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by BDD (talk | contribs) at 18:59, 1 June 2015 (→‎Requested move 25 May 2015: closing discussion, result was not moved). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Requested move 25 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Islam and antisemitism → Islam and Judeophobia – The term antisemitism has its origins in German eugenics (a thoroughly out-of-favor science), and is grammatically inaccurate because Judaism is a religion. Also, semite (שם) has an older history and is clearly established as more inclusive. Also, religious arguments inside Judaism for classification as a race should be acknowledged as romantic. Scientus (talk) 16:36, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:NeilN removing the fallowing: or Islam and Jew-hatred or Islam and anti-Jewish sentiment. The confusion caused by this term is so great that a template was created specifically for it: Template:Warning_antisemitism_Arabs.Scientus (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I removed it because you're changing the proposal after significant discussion has taken place. Your editing is bordering on being disruptive. --NeilN talk to me 14:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(We should respect this by not pigeonholing Judaism as a religion except in cases such as this where the distinction is critical.)Scientus (talk) 04:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is endless and reoccurring dissatisfaction with the term antisemitism in the antisemitism article [1] [2] [3] [4].Scientus (talk) 11:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The 1913 Websters dictionary specified Arabs as part of the Semitic race. [5] Scientus (talk) 11:58, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But this discussion is not about "who is a Semite?" --NeilN talk to me 12:04, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Nazi's were against the semitic race, which includes Arabs.Scientus (talk) 12:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support move, accurate and precise title. Khestwol (talk) 17:29, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, a large section of Islam is composed of peoples such as Arabs who are also Semites. The current title is full of contradiction. GregKaye 18:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support, term Judeophobia is technically correct but as per WP:COMMONNAME term "Anti semitism" should be prefered as it is used in most of common media and even most of unrelated people know term "anti semitism" while I myself listening term "Judeophobia" first time in my life. But after some quick search I found this term technically correct though it is not common.--Human3015 Say Hey!! • 19:05, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There's a reason the proposed name is a red link, and it has to do with WP:COMMONNAME, just like my opposition to this proposed move. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 19:10, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, the current title is not WP:PRECISE. The article is not talking about antipathy towards the Semites in general but only a very tiny fraction (some millions Jews) of the nearly half billion Semites. Khestwol (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You may be confused about the meaning of the word antisemitism, which has nothing to do with antipathy toward Semites in general. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 00:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That specific meaning is per the Nazi German usage of the term. But the literal meaning of the word is different. Khestwol (talk) 03:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As I suspected, you don't understand what the word "antisemitism" means. It has only one meaning, and that meaning is "Jew-hatred". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:40, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it only means hatred of the descendants of Shem (which I agree it does; but this romantically also includes Christians and Muslims), to those not familiar with the term it is confusing, imprecise, and prejudiced (as heredity is not a choice). You are also completely contradicted by the existence of Religious antisemitism. Scientus (talk) 05:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You can believe what you'd like about descendants of Shem, but it doesn't change the only meaning of the word antisemitism, which is Jew-hatred. We don't worry about people who are confused but can't be bothered to use the dictionary. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 06:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
...where they won't find Judeophobia anyways... --NeilN talk to me 06:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is a reason this article should be singled out, and that is because there are more Muslim semites than Jewish semites, which violates WP:PRECISE.Scientus (talk) 03:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article title is already precise and doesn't resort to using an obscure term. Please look up antisemitism in any decent dictionary. [6], [7], [8] --NeilN talk to me 04:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Only if you are familiar with the history. The word itsself, gramatically, contradicts that definition.Scientus (talk) 04:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, only if you are familiar with the common, almost universally used meaning of the term. BTW, Judeophobia doesn't even appear in Webster, Cambridge, or Oxford. --NeilN talk to me 04:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cordless Larry on the contrary as far as a description of the subject is concerned surely "Judeophobia" has a higher rate of recognisability than antisemitism. GregKaye 08:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit that I had never heard the term "Judeophobia" before today, or not to my recollection. Yes, when I read the term I understand what it refers to, but anti-Semitism is a much more commonly used (and therefore, I would argue, recognized) term. The latter is used by mainstream media such as the Guardian and BBC, the Anti-Defamation League, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and appears to be preferred by scholars by a wide margin. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Note that the Judeophobia neologism is being stuffed into the main Antisemitism article. --NeilN talk to me 07:19, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The origin of the term antisemitism has nothing to do with "eugenics" (a concept that did not even exist at the time the term was coined). Even if it had, it would be irrelevant. Numerous commonly used terms derive from obsolete science (the word "phlegmatic" does not change its meaning just because we now know it has nothing to do with how much phlegm you have in your body). The notion that "'Judeophobia' has a higher rate of recognisability than antisemitism" exists only in Greg's fantasy world. How often are people accused of being "judeophobic"? Almost never. Paul B (talk) 08:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
People are often accused of being islamophobic, and the jump in meaning is quite straight-forward.Scientus (talk) 08:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and they are accused of being "homophobic" (a coinage that makes no etymological sense whatever, but we still use it). And if you don't like the USA, you are accused of being 'anti-American' not Americaphobic. And of course the term only applies to the USA, not to other countries in the Americas, despite the meaning of 'America' in a geographical sense. But if you don't like the English you are "Anglophobic". Language is inconsistent. That's just the way it is. It's not our job to replace Anti-Americanism with Americaphobia. Paul B (talk) 08:45, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
anti-Jewish sentiment would be fine with me, but it doesn't have the history that Judeophobic has. And American can also mean people of North and South America; Brazil is even a federation composed of (26) states within the Americas; the non-ambiguous term is yankee.Scientus (talk) 09:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jeez. You haven't understood a word I said have you? I give up. Paul B (talk) 10:14, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Scientus, you have just made Paul's point for him. As he says, "America" doesn't only refer to the United States, and yet when people speak about anti-Americanism, it is generally understood as anti-US feeling. Following the logic of your posts, Americans should be moved to Yankees. Is that really what you're suggesting? Cordless Larry (talk) 10:26, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The use of American is related to the Monroe Doctrine. Scientus (talk) 11:06, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. It has to do with the fact that the "title" of the country is not a name in a normal sense, but a description. BTW, off topic, but Yankees is slang, which was commonly applied to the northern states alone. It shows the pitfalls of trying to determine ourselves what 'correct' usage is. Paul B (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite being a red herring I think that to some extent it is fair for Paul B to indicate that "The origin of the term antisemitism has nothing to do with "eugenics"". However the prejudicial perceptions of Semitic races in Europe are very readily associated with the events of the holocaust.
None of this changes the fact that the commonly used descriptions of "Jewish people" and "Jewish culture" commonly begin "Jewish ..." or "Judeo...".
None of this changes the fact that "anti-Semitism" or "antisemitism" (however people chose to edit the lettering) is a misnomer. GregKaye 13:24, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't. It's just a word. As has been pointed out ad nauseam many words have non-ideal or even totally daffy etymologies. The issue is common usage, which is what determines meaning. It is not yours or anyone else's idea of what the right word should be. Paul B (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually antiseminism is historically related to eugenics. The neologism is from Moritz Steinschneider to make Judenhass more scientific and to support Aryan superiority. On the Origin of Species was popular at the time. Remember that the eugenicists never understood Mendelian genetics. See Ernest_Renan#Views_on_race. Scientus (talk) 13:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The League of Antisemites was founded in 1879. The word eugenics was created in 1883. Paul B (talk) 14:14, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Renan claimed that the Semitic mind was limited by dogmatism and lacked a cosmopolitan conception of civilisation.[24]". That is eugenics.Scientus (talk) 14:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know. I have actually read the works of Renan. You should visit his home in Treguier. It's irrelevant to the point. And no, it isn't eugenics. Paul B (talk) 14:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, not eugenics.Scientus (talk) 18:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose."Judeophobia" is even more of a misnomer than "antisemitism". Now, if "Islam and Jew-hatred" were being proposed for the title, I might support it. But the use of "phobia" is a deliberate attempt to make bigotry sounds like a mental disease or a psychic disorder: "an hereditary form of demonopathy" in Pinsker's words. I don't think we have to promote one rarely-used misnomer over a widely used but generally understood misnomer. --jpgordon::==( o ) 13:52, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jpgordon, you raise a genuinely interesting argument here. According to the article on Islamophobia, this version of terminology was introduced in a deliberate attempt to condemn the "negative emotions such as fear, hatred, and dread directed at Islam or Muslims". I don't see how one case of such use could have been in a deliberate attempt to do good yet another instance was in "a deliberate attempt to make bigotry sounds like a mental disease or a psychic disorder" GregKaye 15:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In both cases, the attempt is to demonize bigots by assigning a psychological disorder to them. Tacking "phobia" on seems to be accepted English now, but we should make sure individual usages are of sufficently currency and usage before we adopt them, especially in article titles. --jpgordon::==( o ) 15:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jpgordon again thank-you. I personally think that bigots may be rightly demonized with whatever terminology is used: In the same paragraph Pinsker mentions both, "Having analyzed Judeophobia as an hereditary form of demonopathy, peculiar to the human race, and having represented Anti-Semitism as proceeding from an inherited aberration of the human mind, ..."

I am unclear as to the difference that you see in the relative usages. Having so far got through most of the pamphlet, I have compiled :

relevant quotes related to Judeophobia and anti-Semitism as appearing within:"Auto-Emancipation" by Leon Pinsker (1882)

That hoary problem, subsumed under the Jewish question, today, as ever in the past, provokes discussion. Like the squaring of the circle it remains unsolved, but unlike it, continues to be the ever-burning question of the day. That is because the problem is not one of mere theoretical interest: it renews and revives in every-day life and presses ever more urgently for solution.

This is the kernel of the problem, as we see it: the Jews comprise a distinctive element among the nations under which they dwell, and as such can neither assimilate nor be readily digested by any nation.

...Only when this basis is established, when the equality of Jews with other nations becomes a fact, can the Jewish problem be considered solved.

...

With the loss of their country, the Jewish people lost their independence,... The world saw in this people the uncanny form of one of the dead walking among the living. The Ghostlike apparition of a living corpse, of a people without unity or organization, without land or other bonds of unity, no longer alive, and yet walking among the living -- this spectral form without precedence in history, unlike anything that preceded or followed it, could but strangely affect the imagination of the nations. And if the fear of ghosts is something inborn, and has a certain justification in the psychic life of mankind, why be surprised at the effect produced by this dead but still living nation

A fear of the Jewish ghost has passed down the generations and the centuries. First a breeder of prejudice, later in conjunction with other forces we are about to discuss, it culminated in Judeophobia.

Judeophobia, together with other symbols, superstitions and idiosyncrasies, has acquired legitimacy phobia among all the peoples of the earth with whom the Jews had intercourse. Judeophobia is a variety of demonopathy with the distinction that it is not peculiar to particular races but is common to the whole of mankind, and that this ghost is not disembodied like other ghosts but partakes of flesh and blood, must endure pain inflicted by the fearful mob who imagines itself endangered.

Judeophobia is a psychic aberration. As a psychic aberration it is hereditary, and as a disease transmitted for two thousand years it is incurable.

It is this fear of ghosts, the mother of Judeophobia, that has evoked this abstract, I might say Platonic hatred, thanks to which the whole Jewish nation is wont to be held responsible for the real or supposed misdeeds of its individual members, and to be libeled in so many ways, to be buffeted about so shamefully.

Friend and foe alike have tried to explain or to justify this hatred of the Jews by bringing all sorts of charges against them. ...

In this way have Judaism and Anti-Semitism passed for centuries through history as inseparable companions. Like the Jewish people, the real wandering Jew, Anti-Semitism, too, seems as if it would never die. He must be blind indeed who will assert that the Jews are not the chosen people, the people chosen for universal hatred. No matter how much the nations are at variance in their relations with one another, however diverse their instincts and aims, they join hands in their hatred of the Jews; on this one matter all are agreed.

Having analyzed Judeophobia as an hereditary form of demonopathy, peculiar to the human race, and having represented Anti-Semitism as proceeding from an inherited aberration of the human mind, we must draw the important conclusion that we must give' up contending against these hostile impulses as we must against every other inherited predisposition...

I hope to work through further but would appreciate your thoughts. GregKaye 17:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose, antisemitism is the common term for what the nom is calling Judeophobia, and the page is located at antisemitism. ONR (talk) 16:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME and related arguments above. It's all very nice to pretend the word has a different meaning. But as related both in the article antisemitism and in the dictionary definition (wikt:anti-Semitism), the by-far common meaning of the term is "prejudice against Jews"—and nothing else. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Antisemitism is the common name for the term. Calidum T|C 01:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, as has already been established in Wikipedia (see: Antisemitism#Etymology) and Merriam-Webster, Anti-Semitism refers to hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group. There is no need to move or rename this article.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 02:30, 29 May 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • Oppose based on points already mentioned above - GalatzTalk 12:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Original research: "Islam and Judeophobia"

According to Google, the phrase "Islam and Judeophobia" occurs five times on the internet, and four of them are on Wikipedia!

  1. The lead of this article: "Islam and antisemitism, or Islam and Judeophobia"
  2. Wikipedia:Dashboard/Requested moves
  3. Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions
  4. Wikipedia:Dashboard
  5. A footnote in the book Social Identities Between the Sacred and the Secular

Its use in the lead is original research. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is used in No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam, which is a #1 Bestseller.Scientus (talk) 04:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, according to Google Books the word Judeophobia never appears in it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:24, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops! How to Win a Cosmic War / Beyond Fundamentalism by the same author: [9]. Scientus (talk) 06:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Leon Pinsker, who was a very early Zionist, is widely cited [10] Scientus (talk) 06:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So it's one person's neologism. --NeilN talk to me 06:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Now compare it with this. --NeilN talk to me 04:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Malik Shabazz, I think you should not do this. When discussion was already going on talk page regarding this term then there was no need to add in main article word "Original research" in front of "Islam and Judeophobia". You should have write this in your comments on this talk page. You could have added term "OR" after this discussion gets locked and result goes in favour of current title. --Human3015 Say Hey!! • 04:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We will wait for the discussion.Scientus (talk) 04:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is not contested that antisemitism is the WP:COMMONNAME, but it violates WP:PRECISE. Judeophobia, even in the context of Islam, is not OR.Scientus (talk) 04:55, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Judeophobia is an obscure term which doesn't even appear in Webster, Cambridge, or Oxford, unlike antisemitism, which has a precise definition. --NeilN talk to me 04:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your Merriam-Webster source contradicts you [11] as it is confused about whether Judaism is a "religious, ethnic, or racial group". Even the Nazi's used Judaism as a religious identify from the 1933 census http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ (and then going up 2 generations).Scientus (talk) 05:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The only one who seems to be confused about these definitions is you. "The Jews, also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious and ethno-cultural group..." --NeilN talk to me 05:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The nazi's surveyed as "religion and language" [12]. Pictures on p. 19. Scientus (talk) 05:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NeilN whether by intention or not you are being disingenuous. In your quoting: Webster, Cambridge, or Oxford, you present "antisemitism" as having "a precise definition" yet your "Example text" search was for "Islam and anti-semitism" and all of the dictionary definitions similarly present "Anti-Semitism". Scientus is right to point out that "The term antisemitism has its origins in German eugenics" but even though it originated within the middle of europe and even though the common designations related to Jewish people and religion are typically comprised using "Jew.." or "Judeo..", the use of misnomer terminology with disconnect with the actual subject matter has been pushed far and wide. All forms of prejudice need to be addressed but no other description of prejudice presents this type of disconnect. Consider, for instance, the content of Category:Anti-national sentiment. In every other case Albanians are called Albanians, Arabs are called Arabs, Armenians are called Armenians. I fully agree that we should use a most commonly recognisable name which constitutes a strong argument for the use of Judeophobia. We should cut the pov pushing and use of smokescreens and call things as they are. Either that or we should at least use the terms as they are used in the dictionary. GregKaye 07:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC) struck following review of contributions to previous discussions. Re: response below. Its more about the presentation of "Semitic references" as "semitic references". GregKaye 16:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@GregKaye: Just to be clear, your complaint is over a dash? --NeilN talk to me 07:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NeilN My complaint is over the use of a misnomer that no other article uses and the manipulation of language that occurs within Wikipedia and editing practice to preserve and support the use of the misnomer. There is an identity of Semites which, I think, you and many other people ignore. GregKaye 07:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@GregKaye: I think you have that backwards. It's Judeophobia which is the obscure neologism. Anti-semitism (or antisemitism) is commonly used by a vast number of sources. --NeilN talk to me 07:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NeilN Presenting a commonly recognisable "Judeo.." prefix as first and foremost in a terminology is by no means getting things backwards. If you do want to go beyond the issue of the clear recognisability of "Judeophobia" then, at the very least, "Anti-Semitism" should be clearly and relatively honestly used. GregKaye 08:03, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Many words are spelled (or should that be spelt?) in various ways, that does not make them different words. Whatever colour or color they are, my descendents will still be the same as my descendants. Paul B (talk) 08:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"my descendents will still be the same as my descendants"--this doesn't make any sense.Scientus (talk) 08:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the spelling. The point is about spelling. Paul B (talk) 08:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That dash you speak of led antisemitism to be move protected.Scientus (talk) 08:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Lots and lots of verbiage from GregKaye in the move review, with very little support for his position or behavior. This observation from IZAK is worth highlighting: 'Most reasonable people would agree that there is no real major difference between the two terms "Antisemitism" and "Anti-Semitism" however some people feel that they must create big waves to get one way over the other that only disrupts WP and wastes time on useless discussions' --NeilN talk to me 11:41, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NeilN With a consistently high level of civilly I argued reasonable points on the basis of:

  • WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia ... prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject" and time and again this was proven to be "anti-Semitism"
WP:SOAPBOX: "Wikipedia is not for: Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, scientific, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise." which shows that there is no rationale to go against commonly used form of presentation
WP:CRITERIA: "Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles."  (Selection of Categories related to Antisemitism and Category:Antisemitism: such as See: Anti-communism, Anti-homelessness, Anti-intellectualism, Anti-left handedness and Anti-Masonry, also Anti-Armenianism, Anti-Bihari sentiment, Anti-Canadianism, Anti-Catalanism, Anti-fat bias, Anti-Filipino sentiment, Anti-Hinduism, Anti-Igbo sentiment, Anti-Italianism, Anti-Quebec sentiment, Anti-Romanian discrimination, Anti-Slavic sentiment. This is the way that the presentation of such topics (inclusive of "anti-Semitism") are regularly made. Please do not WP:CANVASS.
There should have been no big waves. These are basic issues of policy.
Beyond presentations of commonly used spellings I think that it is also fair to argue that a far clearer description of the form or prejudice currently being discussed would be something along the lines of Anti-Jewish sentiment. A commonly used description in relation to Jewish people is "Jewish". GregKaye 13:00, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support clear, non-contradictory, and does not confuse Judaism as a eugenic race, along to pick nits it should be anti-Jewish sentiment. Scientus (talk) 13:08, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, there's no reason to single out this particular article. --NeilN talk to me 13:53, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the same reason as ever. We use the most common term, which is antisemitism (with or without hyphen). Paul B (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment people perpetually, to my mind, obsess about the hyphen. The Jews are just one member of the capital "S" Semitic peoples. This is the wider identity that is misrepresented. GregKaye 15:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's all the ruckus about? Malik Shabazz is an excellent editor and admin, and he is usually right on the money about most things either relating to article content/s and Wikipedia policies. Can someone please explain in one clear sentence what the real problem or core issue is here. Otherwise let's just drop the subject and move on. Thanks so much, IZAK (talk) 09:01, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Malik's call was impeccable formally and substantively.Nishidani (talk) 10:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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