Talk:The Holocaust

Yad Vashem records

As of May 2016, from the museum's Names database FAQ: Questions about the Database > How many names are there in the Names Database? "More than 6.5 million personal records from a multitude of original sources appear in the Names Database... Currently, we estimate the number of separate individual victims who were murdered and are commemorated in the Names Database to be 4.5 million." Please update the reference in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.66.58.218 (talk) 07:57, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

"Since 1945, the most commonly cited figure for the total number of Jews killed has been six million. The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed,[339] but has been able to find documentation of more than three million names of Jewish victims killed,[340] which it displays at its visitors center. The figure most commonly used is the six million attributed to Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official.[341]" This is the paragraph that needs to be updated.

Death

Holocaust is,first and foremost, genocide related to Jews, as it is stated in article so I think it should have only jewish death figure, not combined jews and non-jews. Non-Jewish death number in this case could maybe be in brackets? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.26.40 (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Contradiction?

This section tells from the beginning there was no Jewish resistance and provides long quotation (an opinion) to support such position. Same section tells below that "An estimated 20,000 to 30,000 Jewish partisans (see the list at the top of this section) actively fought the Nazis and their collaborators in Eastern Europe", and this is just a matter of fact. I suggest to fix it by reducing the huge amount of space dedicated to opinion(s) in this section. My very best wishes (talk) 13:26, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

So, why do you disagree with this change? The summary of claims by this authors remained; I only removed a large quote and yet another paragraph that repeats essentially the same.My very best wishes (talk) 14:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

this section does not say that there was "no" Jewish resistance. The statements by Hilberg, Longerich, and Snyder, are more than "opinions", but research conclusions of three major historians. Hilberg was one of the first historians who raised the issue, influencing much of the further discussions, including inter alia Hannah Arendt. --Joel Mc (talk) 14:56, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

No one disputes this is view by historian which comes from his research (I am talking only about Hilberg, not about others). An it is prominently included even after my modification. But why should we dedicate so much space to it, including long quotation and yet another paragraph? Informally speaking, this is section about "Jewish resistance", and as a matter of fact there was Jewish resistance ("20,000 to 30,000 Jewish partisans"). But we start this section from claims that there was no resistance. This is contradictory. Does it mean there was no significant resistance to arrests? If so, this should be said, but not in way that bias whole section in the favor of an opinion which seemingly contradicts facts. My very best wishes (talk) 15:18, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I have clarified the Longerich quote which applies to the Polish ghettos, not to all of Nazi occupied Europe, thus no real contradiction. The Hilberg quotes are not repetitive, one explains the lack of resistance, and the other warns of the dangers of overstating the resistance and should remain. Joel Mc (talk) 15:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• Let me tell this differently. We have a separate page, Jewish resistance in German-occupied Europe. Therefore, this subsection suppose to provide only a relatively brief summary of this already existing page. But it does not. Not only this is very large subsection, but it follows completely different logic. Correct logic: there was such and such resistance, but ... (because this is section about resistance). Not the other way around (there was no resistance, but ...). My very best wishes (talk) 16:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2016

Death marches (1944–1945), The last sentence of the second paragraph: "The last 13 prisoners, all women, were killed in Auschwitz II on 25 November 1944; records show they were "unmittelbar getötet" ("killed outright"), leaving open whether they were gassed or otherwise disposed of.[301]"

Please change "disposed of" to "murdered" because "disposed of" is an inappropriate term to use for deceased human beings, especially Jewish people killed in the Holocaust.

Thank you

Secretskin (talk) 02:32, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

 Done. GAB^Hello! 02:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

You beat me to it by minutes GAB. "Disposed of" was abhorrent. Amazed it slipped through. Lesson for us all, to go through articles literally word by word. Irondome (talk) 02:44, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

"One of the deadliest genocides"?

Wrong forum

Far more people were deliberately killed by European settlers in North and South America, and by Stalin's attempts to starve the entire population of Ukraine to death in the 1930s. (213.122.144.169 (talk) 09:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)) You cover this concern in the section header: "One of the". VQuakr (talk) 03:13, 6 May 2016 (UTC) The Holocaust was not one of the largest genocides in history. (165.120.157.73 (talk) 11:19, 7 May 2016 (UTC)) Wrong article. You're looking for holocaust denial. VQuakr (talk) 21:21, 7 May 2016 (UTC) He's not denying anything. The Holocaust did not kill anywhere near as many people as Stalin, Mao, the European colonial empires, white settlers in North America etc. (1947David (talk) 12:20, 8 May 2016 (UTC)) What part of "one of the" did you not understand? Ian.thomson (talk) 12:24, 8 May 2016 (UTC) 5-6 million isn't even in the same ballpark as the other genocides. (1947David (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2016 (UTC)) It was twice that many (10 to 12 million), and in the span of 12 years. So about one million people a year. By comparison, most estimates for the deathtoll of the Atlantic slave trade are about that many over four centuries. Colonization of the Americas was about 70 million over about four centuries as well. In general European, colonialism faces figures comparable to the Holocaust (tens of millions) over two to four centuries. If you added all of them together, you'd still have fewer deaths per year. The Holodomor was more per year, but less overall. The Great Leap Forward is the only one you list that actually exceeds the Holocaust, but it is still measured in the tens of millions. Stop defending Holocaust denier bollocks. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC) I'm not denying it happened at all, I'm just saying that it wasn't one of the largest genocides in history. Stalin's deliberate mass starvation of Ukraine killed more people. (1947David (talk) 13:08, 8 May 2016 (UTC)) You are downplaying the deaths and exaggerating other genocides -- a form of Holocaust denial. The Holodomor ("Stalin's deliberate mass starvation of Ukraine") killed up to 10 million, while the Holocaust killed at least 10 million (the 5 to 6 million you listed was only the Jews). Again, all of the genocides mentioned here (including the Holocaust) are measurable within tens of millions -- they are in the same order of magnitude. With the exception of the Great Leap Forward, most of them killed between 5 to 20 million people (or took place over centuries), with the Holocaust toward the middle. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC) I heard the Holodomor killed 15 million people. The article on this site says up to 12 million. Regardless, the British Empire was responsible for the deaths of nearly 2 billion people, the largest genocide in history. That was why many people were glad that Hitler destroyed the European colonial powers. (1947David (talk) 13:36, 8 May 2016 (UTC)) Do you have a source for your claim of 15 million in the Holodomor? 12 million (which is the upper limit given in our article, the more common ranges are less than that) would have the Holodomor tied with one of the common ranges for the Holocaust. And as I've said, colonialism lasted centuries. Divide two billion over the four centuries that the British Empire was out colonizing places, and you get 50 million per century, or 5 million per decade (and that's taking your estimation 2 billion at face value). The Holocaust killed twice as many people per decade. Again, what part of "one of the" do you not understand? Ian.thomson (talk) 13:44, 8 May 2016 (UTC) If you include the people who died from diseases as a result of the Holodomor the death total rises to 20 million. (1947David (talk) 13:49, 8 May 2016 (UTC)) Citation needed. And even assuming that was true, that's still in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust -- tens of millions. Short of genocides that involve hundreds of millions within a decade becoming common, the Holocaust will remain one of the deadliest genocides in history. Again, what part of "one of the" do you not understand? Ian.thomson (talk) 13:51, 8 May 2016 (UTC) I find this numbers game rather depressing. Still, I guess that we do need to give some reliable citations do help dampen down some of the wilder rumours. Yale Historian, Timothy Snyder (NYRB January 27, 2011) writes: "All in all, the Germans deliberately killed about 11 million noncombatants, a figure that rises to more than 12 million if foreseeable deaths from deportation, hunger, and sentences in concentration camps are included. For the Soviets during the Stalin period, the analogous figures are approximately six million and nine million." Joel Mc (talk) 16:21, 8 May 2016 (UTC) Those figures are lies. Stalin killed more than 20 million of his own people. (217.42.104.153 (talk) 20:22, 8 May 2016 (UTC))

Edit request: German euthanasia ("Action T4") until August 1941, then Jewish genocide ("Holocaust")

Could a registered editor please replace the following confusing paragraph in the lead:

From 1941 to 1945, Jews were systematically murdered in one of the deadliest genocides in history, which was part of a broader aggregate of acts of oppression and killings of various ethnic and political groups in Europe by the Nazi regime.[7] Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics and the carrying out of the genocide. Other victims of Nazi crimes included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Romanis, communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses and the mentally and physically disabled.[8][9]

with this chronological correction:

Prior to the Jewish genocide, mentally and physically disabled Germans and Austrians had been secretively murdered from 1939 until 1941 under the Action T4 programme. When Action T4 was halted in August 1941 under pressure from von Galen, the personnel and the techniques were soon re-deployed to Poland for implementing industrial-scale killings in mobile death vans, and for establishing extermination camps with gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews. Other victims after August 1941 included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Sinti and Romani (gypsies), communists, homosexuals, and Jehovah's Witnesses.[8][9]

And on a completely different matter, could this careless and unsourced sentence please be removed:

"Germany's invasion of Poland in September 1939 increased the urgency of the "Jewish Question".

I am sure it was not the Wikipedia author's intention to sound like a Nazi, but unfortunately that is what it sounds like. Alternatively, please put the sentence in quotation marks and cite a source, to make completely clear that it is not a Wikipedia point of view. Thank you.