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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 65.88.88.176 (talk) at 22:17, 14 June 2016. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

FOOD HABITS OF KASHMIRIS

Wikipedia is becoming a means also to place disinformation. True famous Kashmiris are ignored in this article as they do not suit some people. Also slowly a confusion is being created in the pure Aryan ethnicity of the Kashmiris. The stage is being set to try to Semitize this great Aryan nation by fraud or even by fixed genetics. Can never be achieved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.243.21 (talk) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (UTC) [reply]

Kashmiris have always been a separate ethnic group than the Darads, though both are Aryans.

Since ancient times Kashmiris are heavy meat-eaters see Nilmatapura. Also while the royalty ate wild-pig even pork was consumed by a large section of the Kashmiris in the Hindu period (Stein, BK, V11, NO1149) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.56.152.82 (talk) 13:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Katrina Kaif is surely not a Kashmiri. She has no Kashmiri blood but is partially Semitic that is Jewish. Most of us Muslims today in the Valley are converts to our beloved Islam by Sufis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.240.14 (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note tthye Jews ae4e pushing non-Kashmiri people and claiming they aere Kashmiri. Like tyhe partial Jewish lady Katrina Kaif is made to look as half-Kashmiri.. S. Mir — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.6.179 (talk) 16:32, 5 April 2015 (UTC) [reply]

TRIBES OF KASHMIR AND RIGVEDIC SANSKRIT

Katrina Kaif has no Kashmiri blood nor does Kailesh Kher. This is being planted from outside the borders of India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 (talk) 20:48, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly most Kashmiri Muslims today are of Hindu background. Caste system existed in Kashmir. Example Wani (business class origin from Sanskrit Wania), Tantrey (soldiers, origin from Sanskrit Tantrin), Magasa (Magrey) {origin from Sanskrit Magasa means warrior, such as the famous Ladda Magasa). As to how Kashmiri people looked in the 12th Century is clearly descibed in Kalhana's Rajataringini.

The Rajataringini written in the 12 century A.D. is a much respected credible history of Kashmir. Before the advent of Islam (a Semitic religion), the people, religion, etc. was all Aryan in Kashmirt. There is surely a big difference between Race and Religion. Today most Kashmiris follow a Semitic religion yet most of these people are Aryans. The Brahmins of Kashmir to this day follow an Aryan religion (based on the Rig-veda, the first book of the Aryans) and also belong to the Aryan Race. FABRICATED AND PLANTED LIST. Trilok Gurtu is only half Kashmiri Pandit. Earlier a non-Kashmiri Kailash Kher was made a Kashmiri and the half-Jewish lady Katrina Kaif was planted as a Kashmiri! It would be great if you placed Mrs. India Gandhi, Pamdit Bhajan Sopori, Majoor, General Raina. Air Marshal Koul, etc. in this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.99.92 (talk) 18:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC) [reply]

Remove Allama Iqbal photo

Allama Iqbal is national poet of pakistan, he was a PUNJABI (with kashmiri ancestory), he spoke punjabi , lived punjabi and died as punjabi. How come his photo is here under kashmiri people. His forefathers were from Kashmir, so he always praised kashmir as being the place of origin of his ancestors. But he did not know kashmiri language or kashmiri culture. So i feel it is highly unjustified to put his picture under kashmiri people. This way someone could put picture of The great Gama and Nawaz sharif also because their forefathers also originated from kashmir, but that would also be utterly BS because they too are PUNJABI (with ancestory from kashmir). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.8.72.116 (talk) 22:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC) iqbal's ancestors were kashmiri brahmins of the sapru clan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.146.246.15 (talk) 01:23, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Aryans, Burzahom Skeleton

Kashmirs like most of us Tajiks belong to the original and pure Aryan Race. We in Tajikistan celebrated the Aryan Year in 2006. However, there are some Semitic people in the West who want to Semitize this region by fraud. Taking all the facts into consideration they can not do it. The Burzahom skeletons in your area are surely pure Aryans, but be carefull by means of clever manipulation by some Semitic or disguised Semitic people and their plants they are not Semitized. I am sure they can not do it but will surely try.

Your Tajik friend, Anahita — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.45.73 (talk) 22:09, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


There is huge difference between a Kashmiri and Punjabi, though both are a fine people and Aryans. Kashmir is more North than most Afghanistan and is Central Asia. Many Tajiks look like Kashmiris and vice-versa. Gama and Iqbal were very proud of their Butt roots from Kashmir Valley their, looks and culture did not change if they lived in the Punjab. It is the same with Nawaz Sharif and his wife Kulsoom Butt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 (talk) 20:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC) At the end of the day you Kashmiris have education. In my land Ariana people have infiltrated and are busy using the simlple minded people to make them believe they are Jews (both Jews and Arabs are Semites). We are Aryans like you Kashmiris. While the Kashmiris are Aryans and I agree the Dards are Aryans too the Kashmiris are not Dards. Though both resemble each other and have a related language. Probably the aim is to make the Kashmiris first Dards and then make the Dards Jewish by propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.56.152.82 (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2011 (UTC) Yes indeed some foreign elements are trying to link Kashmiris to Sindhis, Punjabis, etc. In Indiawe know the reasons. Both Sindhis and Punjabisare great people but they surely have very little in common with the Kashmiris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 17:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC) [reply]

GENETICS AND RACE The subject of racial genetics is still at an extremely primitive stage of development and has little or even no credibility as of now. The accurate studies of races via genes in the opinion of credible scientists will take a couple of hundred years to resolve. As of now the combination of history, language, culture, etc., indicate the race (accurately) as such. For example the Arabs and Jews are cousins (children of Ibrahim) have a similar history, language (both Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic lanmguages) and recent studies indicate (http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2000/10/30-01.html?ref=hp) that they have genetic similarities as well. As of know you can compliment, history, language, looks, culture etc., with racial genetics (which is in primitive stages) to obtain an accurate picture. Also for example a crooked scientist could pick up an Afghan (most Afghans are Aryans but since Arabs invaded Afghanistan some Arab tribes settled in Afghanistan) of Arab origin study him or her and claim Afghans are Jews! There are also other means to manipulate racial genetic data as of now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Punjabis Of Kashimiri Origin

Based on your logic,Nehru and Indira Gandhi have no right to be termed Kashmiris as they were Hidi speaking.Infact they only claimed to be of Kaul tribe which was refuted by many historians while Iqbal's lineage of Sapru clan was accepted by Hindu Pundits as well.Muslim Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab have kept their blood Kashmiri by intermrrying among themselves and the clans like Bhatt,Dhar,Lone,Kichlu,Lone,Bakshi and several others are found in abundance in Pakistani Punjab.A speaker of Kashmiri lingi does not guarantee Kahshmiri ancestry.An Awan may speak Kashsiri language in Muzzaffarabad but Malik Awan is purey a Punjabi tribe.By the way identifying oneself as a Punjabi is nothing to be ashamed of. --119.152.135.122 (talk) 16:55, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Kauls are as pure Kashmiris as any one can be. Kauls are the original masters of Saivism thus the name. It is some foreigners (we know who they are) who are trying to create a mess and confusion in every region of the globe. In Kashmir they can not do it as the people are intelligent and educated. Besides the Nehru family is hated by these people as they (the Nehrus) never let their agenda take roots in India. Read Rajataringini no one can change this epic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 17:51, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

Discoveded your site. Good work. Yet Kashmiri people an Aryan Racial group is not Dards, though Dards are surely Aryan as well. Secondly, I heard that Katrina Kaif has no genuine lineage from Kashmir Valley. Thirdly, Nilmatapurna makes no mention of any Semite (Jewish-Arab) influence, it is purely Aryan and Central Asian. Most central Asia before the Mongol invasion was pure Aryan. To this day segments of Central Asia are pure Aryan. My ancestors worshiped fire (Agni).

Sincerely yours,

Mustaq A. Lone —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.125.14.67 (talk) 20:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am in agreement that Kashmiris have never been mentioned in history as Dards. But both dards and Kashmiris are purest of aryans.

yours etc.,

rassol tantrey The population belonging to the Valley is purely Aryan and has no Mongol or any other ethnic link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 (talk) 00:11, 13 May 2011 (UTC) [reply]


No credible history of Kashmiris refers to the Kashmiris as Dards. Both the Kashmiris and Dards are Aryans but the Dards according to the Rajataringini as well are a separate people from the Kashmiris. The people trying to change the solid history of Kashmir for their long term political gains are in a very bad situation as they can never achieve their goals. ''''

In my opinion to make the Kashmiris as Dards is not accidental but deliberate. Dards are surely our neighbours and of the same Aryan Race but I agree the Kashmiris are not Dards and can not be made into Dards. It may be a part of a long range poltical game to falsely depict the Aryan Kashmiris as Semitic. G.M. Rather —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.200 (talk) 22:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dilutional Indians altering History

whats with the indian bias and revisionist history done here by indians. why are indians commenting on Kashmir when ethnically, linguistically and historically the two share nothing in common. This wikipedia site is losing all standards of quality. Can we get some unbiased, non-indians to re-write this article???

Guys keep inventing history as suits them. Bul Bul Shah was not from Anatolia. This is sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.128.31 (talk) 00:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Aryan Kashmiri has never been referred to as a Dard in history, though the Dard is also an Aryan. It is not too easy to mess up the history of ancient Aryavarta. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.128.31 (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC) Please be careful as a part of their agenda the Jews do not plant Hebrew stuff into your region to make you Semites (Jewish-Arab) in orgin. The Kashmiris are pure Aryans. Dr. Zoon Begum Dar ' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.174 (talk) 19:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC) [reply]

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC) I think it is not possible to change even the history of Sri Lanka let alone that of Kashmir (India). Firstly you have to remove all the Swastikas in Kashmir Valley. Then you have to change the Ramayana, Mahabharata and the Rajataringini. Also the neighbouring region of Kashmir, Tajikistan (they were neighbours of Kashmir in ancient times and both people moved to and fro, See Rajataringini) are celebrating their Aryan revival: http://ahura.homestead.com/TAJIK2006.html http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1960/1101600912_400.jpg Finally, you can not separate India, Iran and parts of Central Asia. They shared borders in the ancient period. Best of luck! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.136.35 (talk) 13:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks for leaving a note. I don't think it should be a problem. The Behnam 05:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How can you change the History of India when you can not even change the History of Sri Lanka? The Kashmiris like the Dards are pure Aryans. The Kashmiris are not Dards:http://www.mockandoneil.com/dard.htm

The Aryan Race is native to India, Iran etc. You can not change the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Iranian History.: Darius; I am Dariush, the great king, the king of kings The king of many countries and many people The king of this expansive land, The son of Wishtaspa of Achaemenid, Persian, the son of a Persian, 'Aryan', from the Aryan race "From the Darius the Great's Inscription in Naqshe-e-Rostam"

By removing this truth you can not change history nor create doubts in the heads of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.128.31 (talk) 13:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Kashmiris look very different compared to the normal populous of India. They have light skin, hair color ranges from red to light brown and have eye colors ranging from blue to brown. Gujjars and Dogri found towards the south in Jammu are of darker skin tone and resemble their Punjabi neighbors whilst the Ladakhis of the North East resemble their Tibetan neighbors.

The reason why I removed the above extract was because I deemed it irrelevant; this article is not a comparison of two ethnic groups. Also, no reference has been provided.

I have removed certain aspects because, being a student of the discipline of History, I find it extremely insensitive to reach theories and conclusions without confirming the people involved. In this issue in particular, I felt that the Kashmiris from the western section of Kashmir- known as Azad Kashmir would not agree to the least with some of the mumble jumble that recent theorists have conjured together, in somewhat a discriminative way. It would help to ask the Azad Kashmir peoples to tell us a little about their culture and history; they are a people of their own identity, they know better about their history than we do, ratherthan make up what we'd like to hear or makes sense to us, you cannot let you imagination loose upon such subjects and allow it to get the better of oneself.

Kashmir history

The western part of Kashmir, known as Azad Kashmir was only part of kashmir for 100 years, Jammu for just over 150, ladakh, Baltistan and Gilgit Agency also for over 150 years. When talking about 'Kashmiri people' most in my opinion refer to 'ethnic kashmiris' who ONLY occupy the Kashmir valley (Indian occupied). Historically Kashmir has only been the Kashmir Valley (for 2000+ years). To my understanding they are culturaly/linguistically/geneticaly different to the rest and are the only 'ethnic kashmiris'. I propose that this article focus more on them as they are the ones who have been 'Kashmiri' for over 2000 years and not the Ladakhis,Baltis,Mirpuris,Azad kashmiris. It has been referenced that the Azad kashmiri people are mainly Punjabi and Gujjar/Pahari which are also considered as castes of Punjabi. Whereas the kashmiris of the Valley are very distintcly different. The history of the Azad kashmiris is visible in their linguists/cultural heritage, and it has a very large affinity to Punjabis. So as the Human rights watch reference states, they are Punjabi peoples who have a very rich history seperate to that of the Kashmiris in the Valley.

At the end the Kashmiris, are well-built, goodlooking intelligent people, thus many countries and people want to mould their history to use them. The conclusion is Kashmir, is Central Asia. Most of Central Asia, Pakistan and Iran has a pure Aryan past. This can not be denied or removed. How can you hope to separate say Tajikstan from Kashmir, when they are next door neighbours and change history-http://www.payvand.com/news/05/dec/1190.html

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kashmiri_Pandit" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.128.31 (talk) 14:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The article below is interesting. It appears to be totally one sided. There is this claim that the AK area became part of Kashmir over a hundred or so years. Well I don't have time to provide all the info but I will be brief. Read the memoirs of Mughal rulers. This region was part of Kashmir a long time ago.

The greatest number of hangings/revolts during colonial times was in the AK Region, I can provide all the info. If anybody wants to see it.

If people from AK are not Kashmiri. Then these are few options avaible to them. People such as myself;

1) stop all charity work in the valley 2) demand we are annexed 3) new Provence for us. This includes areas that are currently in India where people don't speak Kashmiri/kosher. 4) keep your kashmir and set us free. We deserve freedom as in 1947 we fought while you people did not. The revolts were in poonch, mirpur etc the panjabi jats are brave.

Any questions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.80.224.46 (talk) 20:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors

I am an ethnic Kashmiri from the Kashmir valley, speaking Koshur and I think you are being prejudiced, there has always been a link with our fellow Kashmiris, who speak Pahari and are not Punjabi, they speak differently. I don't know much about anthropology, but you cannot say whatever may be the case I know they're not Punjabi, Its like saying the Scots are English, even though they both speak English, yet the Azad Kashmir people speak Pahari and the Punjabis speak Punjabi/Potohari. I sometimes wonder if these people with weird theories about the fellow Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir still think that the world is flat too. Some theories say Koshur is indo-Aryan anyway http://www.koshur.org/ , just like the Kasmiris in Azad Kashmir speak Pahari which is an Indo Aryan language too. Please research further with proper resources, I want us to be clear.


You are a traitor who considers pahari speaking population of so called azad kashmir as "kashmiris". Just visit an area in azad kashmir and have a look at their language and culture, then go to the neighbouring areas of pakistani punjab and you will notice that these so called kashmiris of so called azad kashmir are plain punjabis. They have same ethnical surnames and roots like rajput, jatt or gujjar. Actually you jack pots who live in kashmir valley do not know about the ground realities of the area which is called azad kashmir for no reason´.

Reply to the previous post / Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors

What a piece of sublime nonsense I say! Now this debate about linguistics has led to the accusation that I am a "traitor". I made a suggestion to further the discussion- a varied collection of arguments, sources and evidence is what creates a good debate, some pride amongst some of us cannot allow us to ignore or fail to consider certain arguments, this is not good heritage history- rather this is one sided pride.

Further to your discussion about "Plain Punjabis"- well I beg to disagree, they that is to say the Azad Kashmiris, may share certain aspects of culture, linguistics or history with the Punjab but that does not make them "Plain Punjabis". At this point it may be of some use for me to ask you just what exactly makes you claim that the Punjabis are "Plain"? I always have regarded them to be a rich cultured people, not very "plain" at all.

Coming back to my line of argument, similarities cannot allow us to make sweeping generalisations, some Azad Kashmiris may well be from the Punjab but now reside in Azad Kashmir, whereas others are from Kashmir, I know many of our people who currently reside in AK. Now this leads me to argue, if I may that these people are somewhat distinct though related to both sides of the borders, in some cases more closely to the Punjabis and in others to the residents of the Valley.

Further to your claim ( without evidence that is to say) "area which is called azad kashmir for no reason", well most things happen for a reason, and this area was called "Azad Kashmir" as it was free or rather independant from the other section of Kashmir, Further issues upon this matter are debated, yet my point is not to go into such detail as you stated "no reason" and this proves to you but one reason, which thus discredits your argument.

Further to your hurling of insults at me by the nature of your use of words "Jackpots", I shall say little of this matter, as this is the method of speech and ill argument of a very unstable and unwise mind, I suggest, if I may that you keep such abuses to your ownself in future if you wish to be considered in a debate of this sort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.208.64 (talk) 19:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re. Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors

I think this article needs to be better set out. Kashmiri people consist of Gujjars/Pahari people from the Poonch district, ethnic kashmiris from the Valley and small communities in Jammu, the Dogras of Jammu, the Mirpuris of Azad Kashmir, Sudhuns of Muzafrabad, Ladakhis, Baltistani people, Gilgit agency people. It would probably be better if all these peoples had their own sub headings, that is if we are to talk about people who used to live in the former Princely state of Kashmir.

Although it is undecided whether koshur is Indo-Aryan or not, a language classification can not be used to determine ethnicity. Bengali, Gujarati, Punjabi are all Indo-Aryan languages, but are very different people. Also some classify Pahari as a dialect of Punjabi, but again a language can not be used to determine ethnicity.

More resources are contributors are needed.


Yes it is hundred percent true that a language cannot always be associated with the ethnicity of people. But in a region like south asia, languages especially smaller languages do describe the ethnicity of the people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.69.21.94 (talk) 16:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did Alexander go to Azad Kashmir?

I have come to realise that at around 50 percent of the people I know from Azad Kashmir, tend to be very European looking ( lighter eyes/hair), especially those from Mirpur... is it due to the Greek influence, or some other influence? Also did Alexander reach the other side of Kashmir, I also speak Koshur and wanted to know is there any outside influence upon our language, e.g from any past empires?

I would be very grateful if you could answer this.

Alexander never came to Kashmir Valley no one can plant or manufacture this fake data. The Kashmiri have the Rajataringini. Alexander was a Macedionian and spoke a Slavic tangue. Skeletons in Kashmir which are more than 3 thousand years resemble the modern Kashmiri. Lot of Central Asia is Aryan even today and Kashmir is the untouched region of Central Asia. This Race originated most certainly in Central Asia. Kashmiri language even today is very close to Rigvedic Sanskrit. The original language of the Aryans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 17:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That got to be the most stupid question ever.Greeks themselves are not fair skinned, they are Olive skined and most of them have black hair. Kashmir is next to Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and at least in terms of genetic was dominated by Aryan(Iranic) invasion. They look exactly the same as those two populations. They probably are genetically identical to them , this has nothing to do with Greeks or Europeans, you know that fair skin people exist in Asia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.105.62 (talk) 01:24, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Kashmiris like most Indians belong to the Aryan Race. Both india and Iran have a Aryan Past and original Kashmiri people have nothing to do with Iran and Iranians have nothing to do with Kashmir. this propais being done to create a rift between India and Iran. Both Indians (including Kashmirs) and Iranians are independent Aryan People.

Sincerely,

Agha Gulzar Budgam

Hi, thanks for giving us your name. Next time you get blocked for a pattern of inappropriate edits, we'll be able to tell the Library of Congress who the transgressor is. —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dardic contest

While looking through the source that the IP who keeps adding "Dear Editor" sections added, I can't see why describing Kashmiri as "Dardic" is such a problem. You (IP editor) have claimed that it should say "Aryan" instead, and I was guessing that by "Aryan" you meant something like "Indo-Aryan" since that use of "Aryan" would not be correct. Anyway, the very source that you provided describes "Dardic" and an Indo-Aryan language, so I have no idea what the problem is here. The Behnam 17:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Improvement

Since this article is one of those that potentially would create all sorts of challenges, I have added citation-requests to assist in improving the article. I will do my best to help find neutral sources. In this article it would be better to back up Indian or Pakistani based sources with a neutral source since there is the danger of relying on possibly POVish sources. I have also changed "Pakistan-controlled Kashmir (Azad Kashmir") to just Azad Kashmir because it is less POVish. Just so it is clear I would also oppose the use of "Indian-Occupied Kashmir" in favour of just "Indian Jammu and Kashmir". Green Giant 15:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Section Relevancy

Hello, the article currently contains a section titled Ethnic variation as shown by linguistics, which contains information about various the various groups of Jammu & Kashmir. From my understanding, this article's intention is to focus on the ethnic group that speaks the Kashmiri/Koshur language and inhabits the Kashmir valley. It scope is not on all the ethnic groups that inhabit the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir. Should Ethnic variation as shown by linguistics continue to remain in the article or should it be moved to an article such as Jammu & Kashmir or Kashmir region, where it would be more relevant? In my opinion, the section is attempting to do the same thing that the Demographics section of the Jammu & Kashmir article already does. With regards, AnupamTalk 03:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Revision of lead and image

The Kashmiri people in no epic have ever been referred to as Dards (For this see the authentic History of Kashmir The Rajataringini of Kalhana) . The Dards live mainly outside the kashmir valley and are a distinct ethnic group and are Aryans like the Kashmiris. There is an effort to slowly change the history of Kashmir to suit the interests of some foreign groups. This can not be done as the history of Kashmir is just too clear. However, an indeterminate number have left the region and now live elsewhere. The Kashmiris speak as their mother tongue the Kashmiri language, a Dardic language known as Koshur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.136.255 (talk) 11:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The picture shown on this article as kashmiris is not suitable. Clearly these people are looking non-Koshur speaking people whereas the article is about koshur speaking kashmiris. -- unsigned edit by 24.185.136.255

Your revision to the lead is too drastic and is unsourced. Please discuss it here first with reliable contemporary sources (not the The Rajataringini of Kalhana). Right now I am reverting it again. Not because I don't believe you, as all I know so far is that they speak a Dardic language. In any case, the lead should tell us who they are, not who they aren't. And find another word to use instead of Aryan unless you are discussing linguistics. Doug Weller (talk) 11:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
False the Kashmiris are Aryans like most of India. The Punjabis are Aryans too but some very dark due to warm climate.So history can not be changed.For details see: Encyclopedia Brittanica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.122.253.228 (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From the Aryan article: ""the use of the word Arya or Aryan to designate the speakers of all Indo-European (IE) languages or as the designation of a particular race is an aberration of many writers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and should be avoided." The word 'Aryan' is pretty meaningless anthropologically today, and unnecessary in this article. Doug Weller (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No one can make the aryan kashjmiris into dards. The dards are also aryan and live mainly outside the valley of kashmir. Read: http://www.mockandoneil.com/dard.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.130.204 (talk) 12:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC) [reply]
Our anonymous editor above doesn't seem to have noticed that Mock agrees with me in that he only uses the word 'Aryan' to refer to languages. He also discusses the problems with the term 'Dard'. 'Aryan' is not an ethnic group, it is a language classification. Doug Weller (talk) 12:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I missed this -- he/she added "The Dards (http://www.mockandoneil.com/dard.htm)are Aryans like the Kashmiris and live mainly outside the Vale of Kashmir" and cited Mock, who as I said above, doesn't use the word 'Aryan' to describe people, only languages. Doug Weller (talk) 12:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) IP editor (first edit) added this in the wrong place today: "Why make Kashmirs Dards when they are not (this serves no purpose) , though both the Dards and Kashmiris are an Aryan ethnic group.http://www.mockandoneil.com/dard.htm Note this is just a repeat of the above and I have already said that the source quoted makes it clear 'Aryan' it not an ethnic group. Doug Weller (talk) 13:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Dear Readers,

How can the Aryan Race past of Kashmir and other parts of India be removed because some people do not like the word Aryan? This has nothing to do with the wicked Nazis so not not be insecure. Rigveda and all epics of India talk of the Aryan Race. Also in Persia Darius has this to say The king of many countries and many peoples "The king of this expansive land, "The son of Wishtaspa of Achaemenid, Persian, the son of a Persian, 'Aryan', from the Aryan race "From the Darius the Great's Inscription in Naqshe-e-Rostam" Written in 500BC All Indian gods are aryaputras and Darius says this: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.128.31 (talk) 14:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Simply because today we no longer use the word in English as referring to a 'race'. It doesn't matter how it was used in the past, Wikipedia uses contemporary language. Stop adding it to the lead. And please sign all of your edits, you are making the talk page impossible to read. Doug Weller (talk) 15:24, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The word Aryan is today used to refer to language, not ethnic group. See for instance its usage at http://www.mockandoneil.com/dard.htm Doug Weller (talk) 15:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ram is Aryaputra (son of an Aryan), like most people in Indian epics and Darius says "I am Darius, the great king, the king of kings The king of many countries and many peoples The king of this expansive land,

The son of Wishtaspa of Achaemenid,

Persian, the son of a Persian,

'Aryan', from the Aryan Race "

From the Darius the Great's Inscription in Naqshe-e-Rostam

So you can not remove the Race from Aryan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.128.31 (talk) 13:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"sigh".what he said in that inscription is that "I am king of Aryans(Iranians) and non-Aryans(non Iranians) and I am an Aryan/ Iranian by my race." It exactly refered to being part of a nations, please don't bring modern Nazi interpretation into discussion. Aryan "Race" in its modern shape and form is a fairly new creation in Europe, and did not exist in Ancient Iran or India. Aryan=Iranian and Northern Indian nations. That is it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.105.62 (talk) 01:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Ethnic variation as shown by linguistics

Regarding the removal of the section "Ethnic variation as shown by linguistics", which has been reverted, I think the removal was in order. There was a ref tag that was two months old, and the section is misguided anyway. If ethnic variation were shown by linguistics, then it would follow that the United States, for example, has remarkably little ethnic diversity, rather than the hundreds, if not thousands, of ethnic groups who actually reside there, and that millions of children in the United States who have grown up speaking only English are not of the same ethnic group as their grandparents who still only communicate in their native tongues. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike the United States, languages in Kashmir denote ethnic affinities. TheSuave 17:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's begging the question, and the whole thing is fallacious. The implication of the title "Ethnic variation as shown by linguistics" is that the languages spoken are being used as a proxy for imputing ethnicity in lieu of determining it directly. If that weren't true, then there wouldn't be any reason for the title to mention linguistics. It would be simply "ethnic variation". —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


General Queries/Possible Additions

I know out of personal knowledge that the figure for kashmiris living in Pakistan is definetly much higher. The reason for this is the fact that although few ethnic kashmiris live in azad kashmir, there are many ethnic kashmiris living in the city of Lahore that may not have been taken into account as ethnic kashmiris. Also, would it be appropriate to add typical ethnic features which are common amongst kashmiris i.e. bigger than average and slightly hooked noses, thin lips, very fair skin (making them easily mistaken as being ethnically white), etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omaster (talk • contribs) 22:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

RE:General Queries/Possible Additions

would it be appropriate to add typical ethnic features which are common amongst kashmiris i.e. bigger than average and slightly hooked noses, thin lips, very fair skin (making them easily mistaken as being ethnically white) Are you for real? You make me puke! And only you alone know what I mean by that, a bit of psychotherapy for you and that's coming from a Kashmiri. We as kashmiris are proud of who we are, there is no need to forge false associations on racial grounds. Ta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.232.230.26 (talk) 18:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri Sikhs?

The article does not say that the Sikhs of Kashmir are ethnic Kashmiris.

It was the Sikh leader, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, who is regarded by many historians as playing an instrumental role in encouraging Sikhs from what is now the Indian state of Punjab to settle in Kashmir.

The majority of the Sikh community is located around the predominantly Hindu Jammu area. Few are based in the six Muslim majority districts of the Kashmir Valley.

Jammu is mostly Dogra, and is not associated with the ethnic Kashmiris like the Kashmir valley is. Furthermore, if a number of Sikhs immigrated from Punjab, that would mean that they are of Punjabi and not Kashmiri origin.

Saimdusan Talk|Contribs 06:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

POV fork?

Do we need this article? Kashmir covers the subject in more depth and given the numerous disputes regarding the territory I do wonder whether this article originated as a POV fork. - Sitush (talk) 13:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New comment

'KASHMIR WAS NOT A PART OF BRITISH EMPIRE'Bold text — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 (talk) 23:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, first, please don't shout (use all caps); second, please provide reliable sources for your claim. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Number 57 13:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri people → Kashmiris – "Kashmiris" is by far the WP:COMMONNAME for these people per Ngram. "Kashmiris" is an unambiguous and plural demonym. Per WP:ETHNICGROUP#Ethnic groups. And it is more WP:CONCISE than "Kashmiri people". Per Koreans, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Germans, Swedes, Russians, Serbians, and many other titles of similar articles. Khestwol (talk) 07:27, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A comment

Fake planted data: Many people on this list are not Kashmiris. Kashmiris are not dards (see Rajataringini), but both the Kashmiris are Dards are Aryans and closely related by Race and Language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.175 (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Another comment

Lot of fake data Katrina Kaif (partly Jewish) and Kailash Kher have no Kashmiri blood. Though Kailesh is a great chap and a excellent singer. The U.S. Jewish Lobby often promotes people who suit their agenda.

Some of your claims are hilarious. I was just reading above. Kashmir wasn't part of the British Empire? Seriously? Did you think it was part of China, or part of Afghanistan, or an independent country? As for this: I can't begin to imagine why you would think Kashmir has even the slightest bit of special significance to U.S. Jews, let alone that they have an agenda that involves making people think that non-Kashmiris are Kashmiris.
I've been watching lots of nonsense about Kashmir and related topics from the region coming out of the 65.88.88.* IP addresses over the years. You seem to think that all you have to do is repeat it 4,753 times and that will make it true. It was so bad several years ago that it led to a lengthy set of blocks on a number of those addresses. Please, either come up with reliable sources that conclusively agree with you, or else just stop with all these interruptions that will never go anywhere, because on Wikipedia you cannot accomplish anything in the manner in which you're trying to do so. I beg you. —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiris and Dards

Kashmiris are not Dards as the Rajataringini informs (Kashmiris are a distinct Aryan nation) us. Though their fellow Aryans the Dards are neigbors of Kashmiri with a similar language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 16:54, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Disinformation can not change things. Kalilash Kher a gentleman and great singer is surely not Kashmiri. Nor is Katrina Kaif who is half-Jewish from her mother's side and has no Kashmiri blood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 (talk) 23:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC) [reply]

Kashmiri is dardic language which was heavily influenced by Sanskrit and Persian. Kashmiri people are very related to kind of aryan stock as the people of Gilgit like the Shins, Yashkuns, etc. Kashmiris don't belong to the kind of Aryan stock that inhabits panjab. The difference is very clear even when you see common Kashmiris and other common people of the supposed aryan origin. Other theory is that Kashmiris don't at all belong to the Aryan stock rather they have semitic origins. However the most accurate classification which can be made at the moment is that Kashmiris fall under the dardic ethno-linguistic category. Thanks.Yanniel908 (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All the assertions you've made here over the years might have been more effective if you had provided reliable academic sources that corroborated them once in a while . —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:19, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More

The aim of some people (Jewish lobby) is to create a chaos and then Semitize tyhe Aryan Kashmiri by fraud. The Kashmiris are not Dards see the Rajatrarigini and the Dards are neighbors of the Kashmiri. The Dards are also Aryans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 18:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I responded to this sort of nonsense from you years ago. Your idea that Jews around the world spend any of their time thinking about, of all the peoples in the world, Kashmiris, and caring in the slightest what their ethnic classification is, is inexplicable. By the way, are you completely uneducable about the concept of posting your new thoughts to the bottom of this page, and of signing your posts? —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:40, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Has it occurred to you that the Rajatrarigini is not some sort of absolute authority? —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:45, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Page Protection

I think this page should have a longer duration of page protection.Yanniel908 (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The New York Public Library IP activist (most often from a 65.88.88.* address) has been at this for years. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indo-Aryan Dardic

@Wasiq 9320: What is your objection for stating that Dardic people are Indo-Aryan? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:04, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Does one normally describe people as "Germanic Swedes" or "Slavic Czechs"? Or just as Swedes and Czechs? Of course, the articles Swedes and Czechs give us this information about the respective ethnic groups, but outside of those one ordinarily doesn't gratuitously belabor the ethnic taxonomy. Largoplazo (talk) 10:31, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In the Indian context, it is generally done. See, for example, Bengalis or Tamils. I suppose it is one of the myriads of ways in which the Indians build "unity in diversity." -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:33, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What is generally done? I have always seen Tamils referred to as Tamils, never as "Dravidian Tamils". For example, from Taraki Sivaram: "Taraki Sivaram or Dharmeratnam Sivaram (11 August 1959 – 28 April 2005) was a popular Tamil journalist". Not "a popular Dravidian Tamil journalist". Largoplazo (talk) 14:45, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All the linguistic ethnic groups of India are characterised in terms of their affiliation to the larger pan-Indian language families. Taraki Sivaram is not a linguistic ethnic group, and is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. I suggest you look at the examples I cited. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The examples you provided, Bengalis and Tamils, like the examples I provided, Swedes and Czechs, all describe their subjects as members of some group X (where X is, respectively, Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Germanic, and Slavic). None of them pedantically precedes its X with a mention of the larger group that its X is part of. This article isn't Dards, it's Kashmiris. Your examples and mine all correspond to describing Kashmiris as Dardic, the next larger group, not to describing them as Indo-Aryan Dardic, the next two larger groups. There's no more reason to elaborate here on Dards being Indo-Aryan than there is for the other articles to go off on a tangent to tell us what larger groups Indo-Aryans, Dravidians, Germanic peoples, and Slavs belong to. Largoplazo (talk) 18:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If someone were to describe Paris as an "Eastern Hemisphere European French city", there wouldn't be a question of there being something wrong with saying Europe is in the Eastern Hemisphere or that France is in Europe. It's just that it would be silly and unnecessary. "European French city" could lead one to ask "as opposed to a non-European French city?" Likewise, to write that Kashmiris are an "Indo-Aryan Dardic people": as opposed to non-Indo-Aryan Dardic people? It would look like it's implying a dichotomy that doesn't exist. Largoplazo (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Indo-Aryan" is a linguistic family and "Dardic" is a geographic family. There is no conflict between the two, and no pendantry either.
My goal as a Wikipedia is to inform, not to obfuscate in the name of some imagined political correctness. I am not sure if you are making any real point here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:22, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Then you just answered your original question. You asked "What is your objection for stating that Dardic people are Indo-Aryan?" The answer: If "Indo-Aryan" is a linguistic family, it describes only languages, not people. Dardic people are a people, not a language. Ergo, Dardic people are not Indo-Aryan. Largoplazo (talk) 21:56, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since I just noticed that you contradicted yourself and restored "Indo-Aryan" in the article anyway (and I've reverted it because it contradicts your comment, above), I'm going to try making the point a different way. If the lead sentence of Jamaicans read "Jamaicans are a Germanic people" on the grounds that they speak English and English is a Germanic language, it would be ridiculous. Does that help? And Kashmiris outside of Kashmir who don't speak Kashmiri or any other language native to South Asia don't even speak an Indo-Aryan language. People aren't languages. The article Kashmiri language is where we indicate that the Kashmiri language is an Indo-Aryan language. Largoplazo (talk) 23:49, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, this is still going on? I think you exhibit WP:GEOBIAS by trying to insist that Indians should follow European conventions or norms. We don't. In India, everybody knows that people speak four language families, Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Munda and Tibeto-Burman. And, we are classifying every linguistic ethnic group into the four families. Not doing it for this article would be an obfuscation. Kashmiri has an additional label, that of Dardic, which has developed historically. So, we are mentioning that too. I don't see a problem. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:14, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, are you still intent on contradicting yourself? A contradiction is a contradiction in every part of the globe. I hope you're not trying to make the case here that people in India are culturally averse to logic
You told me that "Indo-Aryan" is a linguistic family. Groups of people may speak a language that belongs to a linguistic family, but they aren't of a linguistic family. Maybe that's how people speak of ethnic groups casually in India, but this is an encyclopedia, not casual conversation. Precision is called for. Telling me that articles on other peoples in the region are also written in a misleading manner doesn't make a strong case for doing it here, it makes a case for changing it elsewhere. You say "And, we are classifying every linguistic ethnic group into the four families." Well, I've come across plenty of netkooks out there with inane theories of the provenance of this people or that people that rely on the assumption that language goes along with ethnicity. "These people speak X, therefore, they must be ethnically related to these other people who speak a language related to X." There are so many cases (like Jamaica) where this obviously isn't true that it is incumbent on us not to say "Well, this is how we talk about things in India" and use that as an justification for conflating language and ethnicity in Wikipedia articles, perpetuating the muddling of the two. Largoplazo (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, even if I were to accept "language is ethnicity in India" as grounds for conflating them on Wikipedia, I've still already addressed the situation. Since Dardic languages are Indo-Aryan languages, "Indo-Aryan Dardic" is redundant. Refer to my comment above about explaining Paris as an "Eastern Hemisphere European French city". Largoplazo (talk) 13:22, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, now you are coming around to talking about the actual topic. I am not claiming that "language is ethnicity in India." Rather that this particular ethnic group is a linguistic ethnic group, similar to Bengali people or Tamil people. Castes are non-linguistic ethnic groups, and nobody will bother to classify them as Indo-Aryan or Dravidian; tribes may be linguistic or not.
As to your question as to why "Dardic" isn't enough of a label, the answers are many:
  • Dardic is not a well-defined language family. Neither is it widely known. It is a half-baked theory proposed by a linguist called Grierson in early 20th century, based on inadequate data, and now known to be mostly wrong. Grierson believed that the so-called "Dardic languages" were an independent family apart from Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages.[1] That is where lies their appeal, at least to some people. And so the theory continues to be promoted despite being obsolete.
  • A resonable "Dardic" family can be defined with Shina and its relatives. But Kashmiri isn't in that family. See pp. 19-21 of the Massica's book.
  • There is no historical basis for calling Kashmiris Dardic either. There was a country called Darada to the north of Kashmir, probably present day Gilgit. But neither was Kashmir a part of Darada, nor Darada a part of Kashmir. There were occasional invasions in both ways.[2]
  • Although their taxonomic relationship suggests an ancient common origin, the cultural affinities between Kashmiri and non-Kashmiri speakers of Dardic tongues are not strong. On the other hand, the extent of cultural intercourse between [Dogri, Pahari and Gojri] speakers and Kashmiris has been much more extensive. [3]
So, on the whole, the basis for labelling Kashmiri as "Dardic" is quite weak, and that for labelling it "Indo-Aryan" is strong. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Because, as per Wikipedia's NPOV policies, we don't suppress views expressed in reliable sources even if we believe them to be wrong. Cleaning up the Dardic languages page is on my to-do list. When that is done, we can summarise it here and in other pages that need to. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:26, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd assume that whatever policies were in play, the outcome should be that articles handle the same material consistently. Also, wouldn't WP:UNDUE apply? Largoplazo (talk) 21:31, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Masica, Colin P. (9 September 1993), The Indo-Aryan Languages, Cambridge University Press, pp. 461–, ISBN 978-0-521-29944-2
  2. ^ Sen, Sailendra Nath (1 January 1999), Ancient Indian History and Civilization, New Age International, pp. 298–, ISBN 978-81-224-1198-0
  3. ^ Schwartzberg, Joseph E. (1997), "Who are the Kashmiri people? Self-identification as a vehicle for self-determination", Environment and Planning A, 29 (12): 2237–2256, doi:10.1068/a292237 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help)

If you remove "Dardic," you should be prepared to sit here and keep fighting with nationalists and POV-pushers. In any case, we should wait to hear from Wasiq 9320. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:10, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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