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August 30

Are people still training to become Fortran or COBOL programmers?

Or, are they legacy programmers who trained when these legacy technologies were mainstream? --Llaanngg (talk) 17:12, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(Anecdotal disclaimer)... but I can cite sources for my stories!

Indeed, there are still academic and industrial training programs for both Fortran and COBOL.

I studied FORTRAN-77, FORTRAN-90 and FORTRAN-95, and RATFOR, while I was a student. I know of several industries where these specific programming-language skills are still desired. Here is a website of one major research lab at one major American university where this software is still part of the formal training program: a software tour of SEPlib, which is still well-regarded by certain industrial sponsors.

I have a friend who has studied COBOL informally as part of on-the-job training (in 2016!) at a major American financial institution. They work with IBM mainframes, and those still exist and are still part of the new-hire career track in certain specialized business units. IBM still advertises COBOL on z/OS.

All this being said: if you had to decide what to specialize in - you will probably broaden your horizons by learning Java, C, and python. But if you are a serious student of computer science, you should learn a few dozen languages, and develop the specific skill-set for learning how to learn computer languages. Most programmers, at some point in their career, will have to work with some unfamiliar language, which may be a domain-specific language, a proprietary software system, or an esoteric or antique project that needs maintenance.

If you haven't already read Learn to Program in 10 Years by Peter Norvig, ... go read it!

Nimur (talk) 18:24, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"learn a few dozen languages"? Does it mean 24, 36, 48? That looks like an overkill, even for people who are really serious about computer science. Learning 4 languages in 4 main paradigms, maybe add a 5th really exotic language to them and aim for the depth - that seems like a more reasonable approach. Hofhof (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I was not exaggerating.

Nimur (talk) 23:01, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Once you learn C/C++, you are functionally literate in dozens of languages. All I did was flip through a reference book to learn Java. I learned PHP by looking at code someone else wrote. I forced myself to learn Lisp a long time ago, so I know the extensions, such as ML. I do a lot of command-line administration, so I regularly use awk, sed, and perl. The military had be using FORTRAN and ADA. With that background, I see new languages and really need nothing more than a reference guide. In my opinion, it all comes down to learning C first. Learn C and you learn dozens of languages. Then, learn Lisp and you learn a dozen more. 209.149.113.4 (talk) 11:45, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, that summarizes my thoughts pretty concisely.

I think the distinction is, some people program to draw a paycheck, and that's fine... they should develop proficiency and excellence at the most in-demand marketable language. This kind of person usually "maxxes out" at one or two programming languages.

But some people program computers because they are inspired - they want to speak the binary language of moisture vaporators or they have a really solid affinity for working with and thinking about data. Those people will learn sed, and awk, and perl, and lisp, and they'll dump binaries to decode the machine language by hand, and ...

Last week I had the (mis)fortune of hand-decoding a bitstream recording of PCIe link-layer and transaction-layer packets. With my trusty copy of the PCIe specification in hand, I had to write a program to turn hexadecimal numbers into information so that I could diagnose a hardware- or software- problem. I discovered that the PCIe transaction protocol was Turing complete - to experienced engineers, it's not actually very surprising, is it? For the novice reader: this means that the data link between, say, your hard-drive and your main computer is controlled by a full-fledged, fully programmable computer language. This doesn't only mean that we can reconfigure the machine for the data reads and writes: it means that we can use your PCIe link to (very inefficiently) play Pong, to execute the artificial-intelligence similator called Siri, or to run a cryptographically-secure random-number-generator (and conditionally inject those random numbers into your precious data files!) The interface is a programming language, even though most people would prefer to call it "just a bunch of bits and bytes." The program is the data! You will probably never find a textbook on "hacking the PCIe link layer to make a Turing-complete computer language." You just accidentally learn this kind of nonsense on the job!

But because I have trained my brain to think like a machine, to grok data the way a machine groks data, it is easier for me to see emergence in places where you might not expect it. It gives me some unique insights into the realistic and practical issues on abstract topics like intelligence, machine-learning, and fundamental computer theory. When you see other programmers who get it, you connect on a level that is a lot deeper than just sharing a common syntax and dialect. Computer scientists think similarly about complexity.

For the novice readers, here is an example of something I would call a non-trivial software program: Peter Norvig's spelling checker. It's a toy-solution to a real-world problem. It took the author about 12 hours to "solve" - in python - and you can bet that he did not spend very much time struggling with the Python syntax. Once he "solved" the problem, many of his friends translated it into dozens of languages - including weird ones like R and D. Translating wasn't difficult. Syntax wasn't difficult. Understanding that the solution is a bunch of simple probabilistic calculations was the key to the problem. Observing how different languages represent that calculation (and deal with, say, character-string syntax) is a great learning experience.

Nimur (talk) 15:18, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Did you go so far as to run Linux on the controller (see Spritesmods for "running Linux on a hard drive") 209.149.113.4 (talk) 16:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I like linux, and I think it's great for a lot of stuff. But around these parts, when I want to get clever and run software in places where I shouldn't, I usually prefer to boot xnu, rather than linux! But in this case, no, I did not want to try to abuse the link layer so badly - I just found it to be a fun observation! Nimur (talk) 19:27, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I regularly take contracts for FORTRAN, COBOL, and ADA jobs. Most are government, but other industries use them. I don't mind that it is old technology. I get to charge more because there is less competition. 209.149.113.4 (talk) 19:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. That's what I do on a daily basis, and it is something that I learned in the last decade (and these languages have been around for much longer than that). In particular, in the field of high-performance computing, Fortran is still king. Titoxd^(?!?) 19:57, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fortran is still widely used in science. Intel, for instance, regularly releases new versions of Intel Fortran Compiler, which uses all features of modern processors. Ruslik_Zero 20:40, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The entire Department of Defense payroll is calculated on 2 mainframes running COBOL: they can't communicate, so the staff prints out data from one computer, and then types it into the other. Apparently, they've never been audited by Congress, either: http://www.npr.org/2013/07/16/202360167/investigation-reveals-a-military-payroll-rife-with-glitches.OldTimeNESter (talk) 16:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is personal experience, but I know that a major military contractor runs its engineering simulations using legacy FORTRAN routines from the 1970s. I've also heard that FORTRAN is still used by some insurance companies, because the code is seen as reliable, and replacing it is both risky and expensive.OldTimeNESter (talk) 16:34, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am inclined to disbelieve the sensational claims that were made in this now-famous news-report about the Department of Defense payroll. I suspect that the Department of Defense has no reason to disavow such claims - why should they choose to provide corrected information about sensitive computer systems? It is in their best interest that the misinformation persists. The general public, including all the news editors who work for NPR and Reuters, and all the hackers who seek to cause harm to the infrastructure, do not have any useful insight into the inner workings or implementations of their systems.

People who need to know, like our senators and representatives who oversee the budget, and our civil servants who implement the process, almost certainly have privileged access to information that is not made public. Have a look at some search results for 'security clearance' at the website of the Government Accountability Office, or the same at the the website of the OPM.

Our government, and our Department of Defense, both have many inefficiencies; I believe many stories and anecdotes I hear about dinosaur computers in government offices... but I do not believe for even a brief minute that an investigative reporter managed to successfully and accurately discover any meaningful technical details about how "all the payroll" for our military is handled.

Nimur (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Without explicitly stating the warrant for my belief, I'm inclined to believe it's even worse than the article states.OldTimeNESter (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

August 31

Googling caribou in reindeer country

I noticed that Googling for "reindeer" in the Canadian woods brings up the Caribou factbox instead, but titles it "Reindeer". Can a Scandanavian (or any European, secondly) confirm or deny that Googling for "caribou" brings up Reindeer titled "Caribou"? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:09, August 31, 2016 (UTC)

For me in the UK, googling "caribou" gets me Dan Snaith. Googling "reindeer" gets me the same result as you. Rojomoke (talk) 03:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's even weirder than I feared. Caribou gets caribou for me, but the box is still called "Reindeer". InedibleHulk (talk) 03:33, August 31, 2016 (UTC)

You can click on the "feedback" button below the box to report this.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:45, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in Denmark and dont get any factbox (Google Knowledge Graph) on "reindeer" or "caribou". On "reindeers" and "caribous" I get the same factbox titled "Reindeer" but with a linked paragraph from our Caribou article. Note that caribou and reindeer are sometimes used as synonyms as our articles say. See Template:HD/GKG for the limited relationship between a Google Knowledge Graph and Wikipedia. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:56, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good to know, thanks. And yeah, they're basically the same creatures in different environments, so it's not something that really needs to be fixed. Just a bit of an odd choice for the Googlebot. If New World porcupine starts redirecting to Old World porcupine (or vice versa), that would be serious. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:03, September 2, 2016 (UTC)

Layering different encryption methods

IIRC, it's a standard result that layering several encryption methods does not increase the security compared to the best of the employed methods. But is that really true? I can see the result for perfect algorithms, when the only possible attack is brute force. But real cyphers often have other weaknesses that make breaking the cypher a lot easier than simply brute-forcing it. Wouldn't layering different algorithms (say AES/Rijndael, 3DES and Blowfish) mask the respective weaknesses of each individual algorithm? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

AFAICT multiple encryption doesn't seem to mention that "layering several encryption methods does not increase the security compared to the best of the employed methods" but does suggest care needs to be taken in implementation. There's also [1] by a cryptographer. The general consensus I'm getting also in non RS [2] is that multiple encryption may have some advantages but you have to be careful about implementation and it doesn't help with what tends to be the biggest weakness in encryption systems. Nil Einne (talk) 09:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Much of this depends on HOW you do multiple encryption. What if I take one key and use that key for 100 different encryption schemes, one after the other. Once you figure out the key for the final encryption scheme, the rest are quickly decrypted. It is like locking a door with a dozen locks that all use the same key. So, asking the user to type in one key for encryption and then using that for all forms of encryption won't work. What if I go the DVD/BluRay method and I package the key with the encryption? I ask for one encryption key from the user and then pack random keys for all the other encryption methods into the encrypted code. Once you decrypt the first stage with the key from the user, it will contain the key for the next stage, which contains the key for the next stage, and so on. It is like locking a box with a padlock. Inside that is a smaller box with they key taped to it. Inside that is a smaller box with the key taped to it, etc... You can hard-code how the key the user types in is manipulated to create a vast set of keys for multiple encryption schemes. That assumes that people trying to hack your system won't know anything about disassembler techniques. Obviously, they will. You are essentially back to the one key for all encryption schemes again. So, you end up with asking the user for a vast set of keys, one for each encryption scheme. Commonly, we ask users for two or three forms of "key". We ask for a password. Many times, we ask for the user's public key from a public/private keyset. It is also becoming common to do something with the user's phone. That is just three forms of security for a single transaction. If you want to get into multiple forms of encryption, imagine being asked for 8 unique passwords to encrypt something - and then you need them in the reverse order to decrypt on the other end. While it is functional on paper, it isn't really any better than one good encryption scheme. 209.149.113.4 (talk) 11:31, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You have it backwards: layering several encryption methods can't decrease the security compared to the best one (if they use independent random keys). Proof: if it could, the attacker could break the best method alone by composing it with the others, which is a contradiction.

Layered encryption can certainly increase security, even if you use the same cipher for each layer: 3DES is an example. But you have to be careful: "2DES" would be hardly more secure than DES because of the meet-in-the-middle attack, and 3DES can be broken in 2¹¹² (not 2¹⁶⁸) time by the same attack.

If you lock your valuables in a safe and lock that safe in another safe, a vulnerability in one safe isn't enough to get the valuables. If you lock your valuables in a safe and lock the key to that safe in another safe, a vulnerability in either safe is enough to get the valuables. When people say "a system is only as strong as its weakest link", they're talking about the latter situation. In TLS, for example, the payload is protected by a symmetric cipher, the key to that cipher is protected by an asymmetric cipher, the key to that cipher is protected from tampering by a certificate authority, that certificate authority is certified reliable by another one, and so on up to a trusted root that ships with the web browser. If you can compromise any link of that chain (the chain of trust), you can compromise the payload. -- BenRG (talk) 19:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that layering multiple encryptions can be correctly implemented as a form of defense in depth. This is widely regarded as good practice.

For example, I (sometimes) use 802.11ac with WPA2 and I also use secure sockets (TLS). On top of this, I sometimes use application encryption.

When a serious error was discovered in some versions of SSL - CVE-2014-0160 - I had confidence that my potential exposure was lower than it could have been. As Stephan Schultz has aptly pointed out, " real (algorithms) often have other weaknesses...." The bug in that case was not actually an error in the cryptographic mathematics. It was, roughly speaking, a privilege escalation bug that took advantage of an error in the memory allocation code.

Nimur (talk) 22:05, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have some misconceptions. WPA2 and friends only encrypt traffic while it travels via radio waves from you to the access point. You should definitely use WPA(2), but it only protects you from someone physically nearby sniffing your Wi-Fi transmissions. None of what you mentioned made you any safer from Heartbleed. Heartbleed is a "buffer over-read" that allows an attacker to read data they shouldn't be able to from the server's memory. An attacker can use this to grab all your data in plaintext from the server, or obtain the server's private key and decrypt your traffic. For that matter, Heartbleed works on clients as well, so if you were using a vulnerable OpenSSL version, an attacker could have exploited you if they were able to get you to connect to a system they controlled. --47.138.165.200 (talk) 02:03, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I understand: my point was, an attacker can't sniff my SSL traffic (or try to attack my SSL server) if they can't get on my WiFi network (in my case, I do not publish my SSL services to the external network). Even if I have a compromised SSL server, having my link layer remain encrypted provides a different, orthogonal layer of protection. And even if the attacker breaks all those layers, if my SSL session is transferring data files that are additionally encrypted, the attacker still cannot make use of a successful breach of my network traffic. In principle, the attacker could use Heartbleed to disclose memory, but if the contents of that memory are just more encrypted data, there is minimal harm from the unwanted disclosure! Obviously, having all the encryption schemes operating correctly provides even more protection. But by encrypting at many different layers, an attacker isn't successful unless every single layer of the system is compromised. Nimur (talk) 07:21, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

An attacker can be somewhere other than on your LAN. And on the Web you frequently don't have the option of adding encryption layers. Your bank probably doesn't let you force your online banking to use only PGP-encrypted messages. Anyway this is a largely academic discussion; most real-world attacks involve attackers breaking into the systems of banks, merchants, etc. or malware being planted on your computer, neither of which will be impeded by encrypting your traffic. --47.138.165.200 (talk) 03:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What is "just an academic exercise" to some readers is "just a day job" for others!

Consider Apple Pay. Yes, major financial institutions do engage with Apple, and both sides do emplace (and enforce) their individual technical security needs on the protocol stack! Apple's major press statements explain, in simple terms, how financial data is protected at many layers - and if you would like more technical information, Apple's chief of security just spoke at BlackHat a few weeks ago in an unprecedented public session exploring the technology that makes Apple software and hardware more secure!

The iOS Security Guide also describes how Apple Pay works. Even if a malicious attacker breaks NFC and eavesdrops or tampers - analogous, in some respects, to "breaking the WPA2 encryption key on a WiFi network" - the attacker cannot make forward progress to compromise or replay a financial transaction - because of a different, orthogonally encrypted part of the security system.

Some additional information is in our article on Apple Pay in the NFC protocol stack.

The long and short of it - encrypt everything everywhere, at every layer, so that a single point of failure is harder to exploit.

On iPhone, Apple encrypts (and/or cryptographically verifies) the network traffic, the user data, the application-layer protocol, the file system, the executable code, ... because security is taken very seriously.

Nimur (talk) 16:51, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mistake - Age Of Death

On Wikipedia when a person dies this displays in their info box Died 1st January 2000 (aged 12) (change date/age) I've recently noticed a mistake in one so I went to change I was really confused by your coding, there must be easier ways or ones that don't cause mistake Like: 1.Just Write it like I did on 2nd line of this article or 2. Get Wikipedia to calculate the age byear- dyear and the bmonth-dmonth if =>1 -1 from age. (Or similar)

69.165.177.132 (talk) 12:34, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think you might want to ask this question on the wikipedia: help desk instead of here. Margalob (talk) 02:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

September 1

Rule 110

I read on wikipedia that the rule 110 of elementary cellular automaton is Turing Complete, which I believe means that any calculation is possible within that language. Is my understanding of Turing Completeness correct? If it is, how would I preform basic arithmetic (For instance, 5 x 2 = 10) using rule 110?

Thanks for your help, and let me know if this isn't the right reference desk for my question. Margalob (talk) 02:18, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since the Turing completeness proof is constructive, you can follow the proof: first figure out how to do multiplication in a cyclic tag system, then encode that in a rule-110 initial state as described in the rule 110 article. It will be difficult (or at least tedious) to make it work. There's probably no easier way. -- BenRG (talk) 08:01, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, what this and many other Turing-complete systems really show is how little it can take for something to be Turing-complete. See also Turing tarpit, esoteric programming language, one instruction set computer. --47.138.165.200 (talk) 04:39, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Matching whitespace in regex

While writing regexes to match a single whitespace, is it better practice to write "\s" or " " ? Since both are valid solutions, I'd expect both to occur equally frequently, but I see my programmer colleagues prefer "\s" all the time. Is there any particular reason for that? La Alquim ista 09:45, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In some implementations "\s" will match some other characters also like tab. See here. manya (talk) 09:52, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

\s only has any special meaning in some regex flavors. There isn't one single thing called "regex"; there are multiple different regular expression languages. Read this. As noted above, in most implementations that support it \s will match things other than the space character, e.g. tab. To find out what it matches, see the documentation for whatever it is you're using. So the real question here is, what do you want to match? If you only want to match a space, use a space. If you want to match more than that, use something else. --47.138.165.200 (talk) 23:56, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Additional thought: it's very common in regex flavors that support it to use \s+, which will match a run of any whitespace character (well, sometimes only horizontal whitespace, not vertical, but that's a whole other can of worms). If you have whitespace-separated values, this will match the separator, so you can split on this regex. For instance in Perl 5:

my @array = split(/\s+/,'foo    bar baz');

will populate array with elements "foo", "bar", and "baz". --47.138.165.200 (talk) 16:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Windows Multiple Folder Name System

I have a need for a product that I haven't seen for Windows. I use in in Linux and an office that exclusively uses Windows wants the same system. What I have is a network storage system. It has a hierarchical folder system. I store files based on funding source, contract ID, and assigned team. That is the default view. I can change the view to date. I get top-level folders for year. I select a year and I get months. I select a month and I get days. Then, I can open a day folder and see all files last modified on that day. Once I select a file by day, I can revert the view to normal folders and I will be in the team folder that contains the file. Basically, they want a Windows file share that lets them flip between the actual folder names and a hierarchy of files by last modified date. Anything like that available? 47.49.128.58 (talk) 14:25, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What you're describing is essentially a Document management system. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:35, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One option might be to use a relational database system to store links to the files. You could then have "reports" that list those links organized in any way you'd like. The db system would be more flexible, such as allowing you to just list files with a particular combo of funding source, assigned team, and date range, even if that need was not anticipated when the system was set up. StuRat (talk) 16:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can't make out what the OP wants, but here's a tip. If you have multiple dated files with the same name (example, "Meeting"), name them with a leading or trailing YYYY-MM-DD date format. Example: 2015-12-22 Meeting, 2016-02-07 Meeting, 2016-03-12 Meeting, etc. Or: Meeting 2015-12-22, Meeting 2016-02-07, Meeting 2016-03-12. You'll find that the folder opens with the files in strict year, month, day order. Akld guy (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you have the date before the filename, they will open in date order whatever the rest of the file name, e.g. 2015-12-22 Meeting, 2016-02-07 Party, 2016-03-12 Meeting - of course, that means you can't sort by the rest of the filename as conveniently. Generally, sorting by "date created" will give a similar result (though it may not, for example if the files have been downloaded from another source) MChesterMC (talk) 09:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(OP here - using public computer at the hospital) Sorthing by date (date created or using dates in the name) won't work because the files are scattered all over the drive. The files are primarily sorted by subject matter. Every day, a few people need to see what has been added or edited in the last 2 or 3 days. They want to view the files based on date, regardless of what subfolder they are in. In practice, they ask me to do it because I use Linux and it is trivial to change my view from a folder view to a date modified view. I'm trying to find something similar in Windows so I don't have to do it every day. 209.149.113.4 (talk) 12:15, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Would something like OpenDocMan [ http://www.opendocman.com/features/ ] meet your needs? --Guy Macon (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

September 2

windows 10 cpus

micro$oft is banging the drum about new "kerby lake" CPUs only working with windows 10 from now on. Please tell me, are they going to actually make it so Windows 7 won't work at all? Because as I understand it modern x86-64 CPUs can still be used by MS DOS and other ancient operator systems, so if MS DOS can work on kerby lake why would Windows 7 stop working unless micro$hit deliberately put in a block — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbartdf93493 (talk • contribs) 13:13, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to this PC World article Microsoft will not be releasing drivers for Kerby Lake processors for Windows 7 or 8/8.1. The article speculates that "the processor would boot, though without driver support and security updates the experience would be “a bit glitchy”", so really I guess it depends on your definition of 'work at all'. X86 processors work on Windows 7 because there are specific drivers that allow the OS to interact with the CPU. Without those drivers, things will be difficult. As for why MS would do this, I guess their reasoning would be that by focussing resources on supporting a single modern OS they will be able to offer the best possible experience in that OS. Another way to phrase that would be 'profit' - they are a business, after all. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 13:23, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Most old software should run fine on newer CPUs. The exception can be low-level device drivers that need to be designed to work with the details of the system architecture (e.g. PCI, Video, IO configuration). It is conceivable that some of the Windows 7/8 device drivers would need upgrading to run on systems designed for Kaby Lake. So, it is possible that current versions of Windows 7 won't run properly on Kaby Lake, though I would find it more likely that Windows 7 would run but some of your peripherals / add-on cards would no longer work. However, even if there is a legitimate aspect of the OS that won't work on the new hardware, it shouldn't be overly hard to fix the drivers (if MS wanted to do so). Seems like it is basically an effort to force people to use the newer OS. Dragons flight (talk) 13:36, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not that there's anything wrong with Broadwell/Haswell or Sandy Bridge/Ivy Bridge cpus... Fr∧m∈Dr∧g^talk 13:40, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think it contributes positively to any technical discussion when the OP levies blatant (albeit bowdlerized) insult into their request for references.

If you have a real technical problem with Microsoft products, we will try to answer it by referring you to high-quality resources. If you have a legitimate grievance that is related to your question, you may make your case, but refer to our style guidelines on writing with an encyclopedic tone. If you simply wish to lob insults at a major software company, the reference desk is not the right place for you to participate. We can direct you to internet forums where casual discussions may take place and the conversations abide by a different set of standards.

I think the original post is couched in a dramatic misunderstanding about how backward compatibility really works in modern computers. Backward compatibility requires effort, and commercial companies require money before they provide effort. If you need a specific feature, Microsoft provides a partners program (and so does Intel). Both corporations provide a forum where you can work directly with their sales and engineering teams to meet your needs. Microsoft sells non-free software and services: so just because you aren't paying for a feature does not mean that it isn't available to somebody else.

If you don't have the budget to engage with a large company - because you are a single individual, for example - then you're going to be stuck with the commodity, retail versions of the products they offer... and those are geared for the "common use case," rather than tailored to your individual needs.

There's no need to be angry about it. That is how retail works. Do you complain that your local fast-food hamburger shop won't sell you a high-quality steak? They've got a business model to deliver commonly-purchased products at low prices. Other places - fancy restaurants - exist that sell gourmet meals at premium prices... but only if you can pay what they ask! ...And gourmet steak chefs are a lot cheaper by the hour than software developers!

Nimur (talk) 16:29, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kaby Lake says: "On January 15, 2016, Microsoft announced that Windows 10 would be the only supported Windows platform for Kaby Lake processors. This was later changed, allowing for applicable security updates until the end of support for Windows 7 and Windows 8.1." Akld guy (talk) 20:36, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not drivers for the CPU itself because it does not need those - from the point of view of Windows 7 Kaby Lake will not be much different from, say, Sandy Bridge. The problem is Intel chipsets that support Kaby Lake. For instance 200-series chipset will support only XHCI usb standard, which is supported by Win10 but not by earlier Windows versions. The result is that on a Kaby Lake system Windows 7 can not be installed from a flash driver effectively making it an obsolete OS. Ruslik_Zero 21:00, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

AFAICT, there seem to be 2 different issues here. Number one as Ruslik_Zero mentioned is that new CPU's have new platforms. I'd normally say chipset too but actually in this case were probably should be careful. With modern SoC CPUs, it isn't just the external chipset but the CPU itself that can be different enough that without new drivers, support may be iffy at best. In other words, just because the core x86-64 CPU may not be that different, doesn't mean the GPU, PCI-express, USB etc etc aren't. This is a combination of Intel and Microsoft although ultimately I don't think Microsoft is actually doing anything to stop anyone (including third parties for that matter, if they had sufficient info except the need for signed drivers) so it's more on Intel than on Microsoft.

The second issue though is simply that Microsoft is not going to support such configs. This doesn't mean that they're going to intentionally break anything, but simply that if something does break, including with new updates, they're aren't going to fix it [3] [4]. Or likewise if it's already broken. (Of course when something does break, it can be difficult to know why and conspiracy theorists may suggest it was intentional, but while I've seen a lot of questionable activity, I think there's a very good chance here if it happens it was indeed mostly an accident.) This is most relevant to businesses or others with some sort of support contract and often aren't willing to do stuff like hope and pray it doesn't break or use random modified files or ignore important security updates because it breaks stuff on their unsupported config.

From what I've read, I get the feeling a lot of people underestimate how much time and effort Microsoft puts into ensuring compatibility for the wide array of hardware out there, something that Nimur and others have touched on. Mostly I guess because of the plenty of examples where things have gone wrong, also I suspect because it can be hard to realise how easy it is for that to happen. As the sources I provided make clear, this isn't something new to Kaby Lake. Nor is it new to Windows 10. For that matter although my sources don't mention this, the driver issue isn't new either.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:35, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

September 4

Commercial General Midi SF2 Soundfont

This question gets close to legal advice, but at no point am I actually seeking any such advice, just direction to a product. I need a general midi soundfont that I can use to record midi music with and, then, use that music in a commercial product. So, what I am looking for is a source where I can purchase a soundfont, in the form of an sf2, from an actual legitimate company (not a random person, not one that is free, etc.). I am not asking anyone to verify any of the licensing, I am only looking for a commercial vendor (I can, then, talk to them, etc.). The reason I'm being so specific in this question is that I cannot, after a lot of searching, find any such vendors, all I can find are fonts put together by people with no clear sourcing, sites that don't exist for closed vendors, and other such -- and one site offering individual instrument fonts, which isn't what I need. Thank you for any help:-)73.174.196.36 (talk) 00:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:IANAL applies here, but @73.174.196.36:, have you read the information available at SoundFont? It mentions free .sf2 creation software, including giving links. After this, then the midi work you make using this software would be yours to license as you wish. More information available at Copyright. RegistryKey^(RegEdit) 03:43, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The legal part is background on why I'm looking for this. I am not, in any manner expecting, nor desiring, input on the legal part. Essentially, I need a source to purchase an sf2 from a company that owns the file -- this is not different than asking, "I want a digital copy of the movie Willow, every time I Google it, all I can find are links to illegal downloads, can anyone provide me a source where I can buy this movie?". So, again, the legal matters give a context for what I am doing, they are not what I am asking about, nor seeking help with. --As for creating my own, I need something that is high quality, I don't have the means to produce high quality samples, I do have the means to buy them.05:11, 4 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.174.196.36 (talk)

A Google search on "commercial soundfont" will come up with lots of vendors. Digital Sound Factory is linked from our article, but this should not be considered an endorsement. Tevildo (talk) 08:36, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Emails on iPhone

Does anyone know if there's a setting that automatically deletes from an iPhone - from the device only, NOT syncing the deletion to other devices - emails more than (say) 30 days old?

I seem to remember this being a fairly prominent option when I first owned an iPhone, and I definitely remember Blackberries used to do it, but cannot find it or anything similar on my iPhone now. AndyJones (talk) 08:25, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unable to delete folder - Windows 10

Is there any way I can discover the dependancies on a folder that cannot be deleted because it is being used elsewhere? There's one folder in program files that I want rid of, this was associated formally with Adobe but I have deleted all the associated software. Yet this empty folder sits there, any apparently cannot be deleted because it is opened elsewhere. What gives? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.208.132.54 (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've used this http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/opened_files_view.html to find open files in Windows, but the last time I tried it on W10 it didn't seem very reliable. Just like you I was trying to delete a folder which the system insisted was open, but the tool didn't identify what was holding it open. In the end, I booted off a Knoppix disk and deleted the rogue folder that way. --TrogWoolley (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sysinternals also lets you see this information, and even schedule moves and deletes for the next shutdown/reboot. --47.138.165.200 (talk) 21:24, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Java Won't Open

Two of my Wikipedia-related Java programs aren't opening (STiki and WPCleaner). When I try to open them, I can see the icon in the taskbar and when I hover on the icon in the taskbar it shows the screen, but when I click on it or try to open it using task manager it doesn't open. I don't have any other Java programs, so I can't test if it's specific. What should I do? Dat Guy^Talk_Contribs 14:11, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You can try to update JRE. Ruslik_Zero 20:47, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discover language of compiled program

Once compiled, how can someone discover in what language a program was written? Would you need to decompile it into different languages until something reasonable appears? Is it possible to decompile a program into more than one programming language?Llaanngg (talk) 22:10, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Decompilation is, at best, a very unreliable and failure-prone process. At least in theory, different source programs in different languages can compile to exactly the same binary. In practice, this is not unlikely to happen if a compiler family uses the same backend with different front ends. And then there are languages like C and C++, where many programs are correct in both languages. Your best bet might be to look at runtime library components linked into the program. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:28, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Autodesk Meshmixer: Creating a hole on a thin shell from a selection

I am using Autodesk Meshmixer to create a 3D printed face mask.

This mask has an outer surface and an inner surface. I am trying to cut two eye holes and maybe more holes for the mouth and nostrils but at first I need to have eye holes.

I have selected the area for one eye using the selection tool. I then tried Extrusion tool and input a negative value. Instead of creating a hole, the negative intrusion created a extended part inside the inner surface.

I then tried several other tools such as offset. They are not useful.

How do I cut a hole on this mask having inside and outside surfaces? I only need the name of the tool so I can look for related YouTube tutorials. I can use other free tools if I have to. -- Toytoy (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]