User talk:Sminthopsis84

-Should we jump?
-Why not. It's Monday. We could wash off the Wikipedia grime from the past week.

Each Monday I am taking a stand against whoever it is who runs this show and doesn't care about editor retention. Along with some others, I am withdrawing my labour every Monday as a reminder that protecting the quality of wikipedia pages isn't possible because volunteers burn out if they try. Please join us. You'll be glad you did.

However, I gathered some data to show that this essay is not the answer. If we take a break or retire from editing, pages do deteriorate, there is no safety net for them. If the central administration doesn't care about editor retention, then there's not much that a few individual editors can do.

The Monday song

Flower

	Salicaceae flowers
	A flower. Hafspajen (talk) 22:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Nice. Very Salicacious, very salubrious. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:19, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Re: your rv on Allotype

Hi Sminthopsis84. I wasn't aware of this 'rule' - would you be able to link it too me (I'm not doubting its existence, I'm just ignorant of it!)? Regardless, it would seem to better to have holotype wikilinked given that it is a technical term that the majority of readers will be unfamiliar with - what do you think? Acather96 (click here to contact me) 17:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I should have included that link. See MOS:DABENTRY. I think the text at Allotype is rather more complex than necessary, so I've tried to simplify it, but I don't see a way to link holotype. See what you think. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:45, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Bengali Muslims

In response to a request for a copy-edit at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests, I am beginning a copy-edit of the article Bengali Muslims. I haven't made an edits yet; I've just been reading, and am still in the lead. I know you have an interest in Bangladesh, so I thought I'd ask you about two things that are puzzling me.

In the last paragraph of the lead, we read:

• They are concentrated in East Bengal. After the Partition of British India in 1947, they compromised the demographic majority of Pakistan, until the independence of East Pakistan (historic East Bengal) as Bangladesh in 1971.

I was a little puzzled by the short sentence, "They are concentrated in East Bengal". I thought, if that is a state within Bangladesh, I'm not sure it belongs in the lead. I did a search for "East Bengal" and found the article, East Bengal. The first line in that article says:

• East Bengal...was the name used during two periods in the 20th century for a territory that roughly corresponded to the modern state of Bangladesh. [emphasis mine]

So, it appears that East Bengal is a term that is no longer used. Thus, to say that "[Bengali Muslims] are concentrated in East Bengal" is simply incorrect. Is it enough to change the tense of the verb and say "were concentrated in East Bengal" (and link the phrase "East Bengal"), or do you think this is not important enough to stay in the lead?

2) The second sentence says that Bengali Muslims "compromised the demographic majority of Pakistan". I think "compromised" should be "comprised", shouldn't it? The same verb is used in the second paragraph of the East Bengal article. If I change it in Bengali Muslims, I guess I ought to change it in the other. Thanks in advance for your help. (I may have other questions as I go through the article, but probably tomorrow rather than today.)  – Corinne (talk) 02:01, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

That will undoubtedly be a challenging task.

1) "were concentrated in East Bengal" wouldn't work well because they moved around 1947 to the part that was becoming Pakistan. "are concentrated in Bangladesh" would work.

2) yes, absolutely, that needs correcting. Sometimes I try linking works like that to wiktionary, but there are people who remove such links, I've never understood why. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:09, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Sminthopsis84. I wouldn't understand removing a few links to Wiktionary, either.  – Corinne (talk) 23:09, 31 August 2016 (UTC) Fixing a typo from six months ago. I can't believe I wrote it like that and just noticed it now.  – Corinne (talk) 15:21, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Amazing. I didn't notice the typo either. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I've finished a first run-through. Now I'm going back and re-reading the article, both to find things I may have missed and to find things I knew I had to ask someone about. I'm going to post questions on the article's talk page at Talk:Bengali Muslims#Some questions following GOCE copy-edit. Please feel free to chime in.  – Corinne (talk) 01:47, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

What do you think about this edit to Bengali Muslims? Besides the incorrect singular "society", I thought lists were generally deprecated at WP, especially when there is no context. Should this edit be reverted? Can you think of a link to a section of the MOS to which we can point?  – Corinne (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, it is not a pretty addition. Those societies are all, I would say, culturally important, and it would be good to have a page about each of them. I've made them into red links and trimmed a little duplication. Sorry, that's hardly a complete solution. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 03:04, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Ecozone

Hi Sminthopsis84, could you take a look at Talk:Ecozone? Zorahia (talk) 03:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I have made some new propositions in the talk page.Zorahia (talk) 17:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

@Zorahia: what you are doing sounds good to me, but I am not an expert on ecology, so have no "common sense" to help detect any problems that might arise. I can see that it is certainly a mess now, and needs work, but that's about as far as I can see. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:48, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Fine! Zorahia (talk) 01:34, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	Thank you for your amazing contribution and happy editing. Vinegarymass911 (talk) 00:40, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

your comments on my talk page

Very unhappy in the way in which any one who challenges the status quo and forms a different opinion to others will be banned unless they conform to the views of those that are being challenged. If someone wishes to enforce sanctions, then so be it. It only reinforces the pettiness of editorial policy.

From what started out as a simple comment on a single page this has escalated beyond belief. Is wikipedia about enhancing knowledge for all or is it more about alienating those who only wish to join in and help but who may have different or opposing views? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matchkick (talk • contribs) 07:07, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

The issue is not your views, but your behaviour towards another editor. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 08:22, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Like wise it is a two way street when it comes to the behaviour of others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matchkick (talk • contribs) 11:05, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Jacaranda

Hi Sminthopsis84

I refer to your recent edit to Jacaranda, removing content. While I agree it is better related to the species article Jacaranda mimosifolia, I think you should have moved it. There was unduplicated, reliably secondary sourced content, which was lost by your good faith edit. I have placed the content into J. mimosifolia. Also note that the redirect purple panic became meaningless by your edit. I have fixed this too. Cheers. Aoziwe (talk) 13:41, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing that bizarre redirect. I've removed some of the material again, with explanations in the edit summaries. Folklore sections and "In popular culture" sections are likely to be deleted as non-encyclopedic by wikipedians who work on that sort of thing, but I'll leave that to such a person, if they should happen to notice the page. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:38, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Evolutionary developmental biology

Hi, I'm rewriting this article, the top-level for evo-devo, as it was random, unillustrated and basically incomprehensible - it didn't tell me anything of what I needed to know about the subject. Now I've read a few books and I have some sort of idea what it's about. I've completed a sketchy first pass - the article has most of the sections it ought to have, and it mentions most of the key topics. It still gives rather few examples of how the whole machine works (will do that next). But it'd be very helpful if you could skim through it and tell me where it becomes unintelligible... Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:42, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

You are doing a lot there! I'll be busy for another week or so ... Will do what I can when that eases. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:13, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Have ground to a halt... maybe you could look at the talk page and see if I ought to do anything about it, and if so, what? All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:54, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Reversion of an edit to an article

Sir, I find out that you recently reverted my edit to the article Bengalis.

Hoping that you are aware about the Bengalis in general,I would like to comment that-" There has been several persons worth of being mentioned in the subsection as you see in this article. But we can't basically add that massive list to the section of the page under concern. Notwithstanding or downplaying Chanda Gayen's immense achievements,when legendary Bengalis like Rabindranath Tagore(A Nobel Prize Winner), Subhas Chandra Bose(A famed freedom fighter),Satyajit Ray(A filmmaker of international acclaim) and every other person mentioned there has no contribution attributed to them,it becomes a fodder of thought(wink!!) iff Chanda Gayen is given such a high gravity in the section!"

Not barring the phrase mentioning her as a mountaineer, she has also been attributed with her relatively obscure professions too! Further,I think the exact time of climb to the Peak of Mt. Everest and the fact that she did it in same expedition is quite correct but WP:UNDUE and hence is worthy enough to only merit a mention in her own article only.In my opinion, the remedy lies to go with the styling of the section and mention her name among Bengali sportsperson of repute,consuming a mere 2 words!!

How do you feel about it?

Please ping me about your replies and opinion!Aru@baska^{❯❯❯ Vanguard} 10:13, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

@ARUNEEK: Your suggestions are reasonable, except that in the context of that enormously long list, I think that Chanda Gayen does not deserve to be excluded. I think it is a bit sad that the list is on the page at all. If you look at Americans, there is no list of notable American people. I think that the various list articles, List of Bengalis, etc. that are listed at the top of the section should really only be listed in the "See also" section, and the notable people list should be removed from the page. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:51, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Following your generous suggestion!Please keep an eye on the article for any re-addition of the section and if required-justification of the section deletion!Aru@baska^{❯❯❯ Vanguard} 11:42, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:32, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Amborella

Hello, Sminthopsis84 -- Do you have Amborella on your watch list? If not, you might take a look at the recent comment at Talk:Amborella#Lacks the vessels?. It's by a college student with an interest in plants, possibly a new plant editor (needs to be reminded to sign posts).  – Corinne (talk) 20:22, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

It's nice to see someone trying to use the citations for the purpose for which they are intended, as the start of a reading project. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:30, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I see you've been doing a lot of work on the article. I just noticed that there is no photo of the plant from a distance, showing what the whole plant looks like. All the images are close-ups. Would there be any value in adding an image of the whole shrub?  – Corinne (talk) 20:06, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Oh, I just looked again. The first image in the gallery is of the whole plant, but it is still pretty close up. I don't know if there is another image of the plant that could be added that looks directly at it rather than down on it, as this one does.  – Corinne (talk) 20:09, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Sadly, we don't have one in Commons. (There is no image of the fruit either.) Commons has a problem that people change the file descriptions according to arbitrary notions about taxonomy, and discussions about achieving consensus hardly occur (the site is multilingual, which hampers discussion considerably). I don't see that anyone has uploaded a file here in an attempt to protect it from silliness in Commons (at least, not that I can find with a search for the string "File:Amborella"). It would be good to have an image of the whole plant; I've seen it in the past, and my impression was that those toothy young leaves give quite a different look from what a mature tree has. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:30, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Wow. That is a problem. Have you raised it in a discussion regarding file descriptions for images on Commons? I thought most taxonomy terminology was international (of course, I know nothing about it).  – Corinne (talk) 23:46, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I've thought about it, but I don't know what to suggest as a solution. Someone is likely to get hold of an old book, or an unusual taxonomic work and go around changing labels on photos. The problem is mentioned here. I think it will take time, perhaps years, for enough people to become aware of the problem before a solution (if any) materializes. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:58, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Why not suggest a software application that prevents any file description from being changed until a solution is found? That alone might make people aware of the problem and begin a discussion.  – Corinne (talk) 01:06, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

The solution that I'd like to find (but probably haven't done enough research about), is to upload photos with a "No Derivative Works" licence. Perhaps it is possible in a single wikipedia such as this one (and that should outlaw copying the image to Commons, with the unfortunate side-effect that it couldn't be used by other-language wikipedias and wiktionaries). "Wikimedia Commons only accepts free content, that is, images and other media files that are not subject to copyright restrictions which would prevent them being used by anyone, anytime, for any purpose." The wikipedia option that I dream of might not be permitted either: Wikipedia:File_copyright_tags/All#Non-free Creative Commons licenses says "Do not upload images for which one of the tags in this section applies.". Oh well. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:21, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

SickKids

Please refer to this. It is expected that we avoid including symbols for registered and trademark. Common names should be bolded in the lead of articles. EelamStyleZ (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Okay. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Natural selection

Welcome back. Yes, gulp, I've converted this large and potentially contentious beast to fully-cited, OR-free form, so far practically without fuss. Explanations: a) there aren't any editors any more b) it's too technical for most people to be interested in. (Really?). Given the deafening silence, I'd be really glad if you could give it a quick critical looking-over. I really do believe people ought to be able to come to Wikipedia to read about such major topics secure in the knowledge that the materials have been properly worded, cited, and checked. But it seems that editors prefer to do hundreds of articles on individual selachians rather than address the core topics of a science. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:01, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. It was a good cold, windy, rainy holiday. Well, selachians are cute, and perhaps gamodemes are less so!? I'll keep looking at your huge effort there, but so far I've only made changes in its surroundings, so that might look like more deafening silence. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:58, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks. Well, even the nearly-invisible fixes are useful, and much less likely to attract thanks and praise. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:24, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm trying to explain Aristotle's biology for the masses. Not a simple topic, but happily I have Armand Leroi to hand, on paper at least. (Marvellous films, too.) Wd be curious to hear if you think it at least somewhat intelligible. I think the empirical research and classification bits need work, they're very uneven. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

That's quite a challenge that you have set yourself, going forth into what is usually considered to be difficult ancient philosophy. (Interesting that Leroi is a presenter of sound material. On Netflix here is (only) a two-part 2005 series "Extraterrestrial", which starts off in such a way as to make it appear to fit squarely in the Looney Tunes category. Perhaps that is the influence of the "TV producers" mentioned on his page.) I tend to think that a comprehensible lead is a good way to start, that it can illuminate what is to come.

• I think the lead would be more understandable without "but the only biological work to join the scholastic curriculum was On the Soul."
• Mention of "The scholastic association" in the lead is inscrutable. Perhaps "The scholastic association, and errors in his theories caused Early Modern scientists such as Galileo and William Harvey to reject Aristotle." could instead become something like "Errors in his theories caused Early Modern scientists such as Galileo and William Harvey to reject Aristotle's work as theorizing not based on evidence."

"The scholastic natural philosophy curriculum omitted most of Aristotle's biology, but, perhaps because it did not sound as if it were about animals, included On the Soul." That seems to need a link to natural philosophy, but it is also not obvious why they would reject the parts inside their apparent mandate.

A discrepancy: "studied at Plato's Academy in Athens, remaining there for some 17 years." the linked page says 20. I don't know which is correct; sources seem to differ. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks as always. I've tidied up the bits you mention. Not seen the ET thing, doesn't sound as if I've missed much. Leroi's BBC programmes are on YouTube, as listed on his page - they're really good, though obviously not in as much detail as his book. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:49, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

The Challenge Series

The Challenge Series is a current drive on English Wikipedia to encourage article improvements and creations globally through a series of 50,000/10,000/1000 Challenges for different regions, countries and topics. All Wikipedia editors in good standing are invited to participate.

• Use {{subst:The Challenge series invitation}} to invite others using this template.
• Sent to users at Northamerica1000/Mailing list using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:16, 19 November 2016 (UTC).

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Sminthopsis84. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Merger discussion for Perilla

An article that you have been involved in editing—Perilla—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Diospireiro (talk) 10:49, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Species problems...

I've ditched a third of Species and a fair bit of Problem. They're starting to look vaguely respectable, but even I am a bit shocked at just what a mess they were in. Entirely gyp-free, however. Touch wood. Maybe you'd take a look at S (as well as P). Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

It is very nice to see the unwieldy pages trimmed (also "the basic unit", love that!). I don't know what to do about it, but it is a bit rough on Linnaeus to suggest that he had a orthogenetic view and was unaware of hybridization (only his later writings deal with hybridization, and he was descending into dementia, unfortunately). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, the entire treatment of historical figures is pretty rough, period. The account of Aristotle at Evolution#History of evolutionary thought is outrageous, conflating the man with Aristotelianism of the Thomas Aquinas era - a shambles, and the article has a little gold star too, tsk tsk. That will be an interesting challenge. Linnaeus is at least pretty widely admired; Lamarck is treated as if all he did was silly giraffes, when in fact he barely mentioned them. And ... I better stop.

Thanks for the "the", but why not, it's been true for a century at least. Even if it's not real - I was at school with Jim Mallet, who wrote a splendidly learned account of the Species Concept, concluding that it's close to untenable over geological time and on a global scale. I think I'll put him to work in one or other of the articles. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:22, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

It is indeed horrible how historical figures have repeatedly been set up as straw people, and those statements about them repeated as if they were true. Perhaps I'll get to look at Aristotle at some point when I get around to the backlog already noted on this talk page. Thank you for the Jim Mallett chapter, which I didn't have. I had some others of his, a review article "Hybrid speciation", Nature, 446 (7133): 279–283, 2007, doi:10.1038/nature05706 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help) (which states in the abstract "Linnaeus stated in Systema Naturae that species have remained unchanged since the dawn of time, but he later experimented with hybrids and convinced himself that hybridization provided a means of species modification."), a 2007 article on DNA barcoding, and "A species definition for the modern synthesis", Trends in Ecology and Evolution, 10 (7): 294–299, 1995, doi:10.1016/0169-5347(95)90031-4 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help) ("Darwin felt he had solved the 'species problem'; ... Darwin was even accused of making species appear more fluid than they really are as a ('perhaps unconscious') means of gaining support for evolution7. In fact, as I shall show, Darwin and Wallace had carefully considered alternatives, particularly definitions based on interbreeding, and rejected them." -- a very nice kick to the behind of the BSC.). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Good stuff. Even better if you feel like putting those quotes into the articles! Jim's writing is so clear where many others are so murky, that I start to feel the topic is actually quite comprehensible... do read Armand Leroi's The Lagoon on Aristotle's biology, it's beautifully written, and based on both documentary and real-world evidence (which makes a change). Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Variation vs variability

Should there be separate articles on genetic variation and genetic variability? Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Hmm. No. I'd say that wikipedia would be better without the current contenst of the genetic variability article (the polyploidy statement is false, but would require quite a bit of explaining), but the question is what should redirect where. Evolvability and Phenotypic plasticity need to be clearly distinguished, and I suspect that more needs to be said about ecology.

Genetic variation cites Rieger, Michaelis, and Green, which is old, but very much a foundation; it says:

• variability - the state or quality of being variable of subject to (qv) variation, i.e., of having a tendency to vary in form, nature, substance, etc. (qv genetic variability).
• variation - the occurrence of heritable or nonheritable differences in the permanent structures of cells ("intradividual v."), among individuals of one population ("individual v."), or among populations ("group v.").

The chief sources of v. among the characteristics of related organisms are genic differences (due to (qv) mutation or new assortment of genets) or environmentally induced differences which only cause temporary changes to the phenotype.

Primarily biological v. may be subdivided into three categories:

1. Phenotypic variation: The total biological v. of a given (qv) character ...

2. Environmental variation: V. due to all intra- and extracellular factors which influence the expression of the (qv) genotype ...

3. Genetic variation: V. due to the contribution of segregating genes and (qv) gene interactions (...) represented as the proportion of the total phenotypic variation that is exclusively genetic. This proportion is called (qv) heritability ...

Genetic v. in a population is controlled by three main factors (Mayr 1963). The input of new genetic information due to mutation and (qv) gene flow; the erosion of this variation by selection and sampling errors; and the protection of the stored variability by cytophysiological devices and ecological factors (qv genetic variability).

• genetic variability - [a long article, and there is no entry for "genetic variation"] the formation of individuals differing in (qv) genotype, or the presence of genotypically different individuals, in contrast to environmentally induced differences which, as a rule, cause only temporary, nonheritable changes of the phenotype (qv variation). Genetic variance is a term used to denote that portion of the phenotypic variance which is caused by variation in the genetic constitution of the individuals in the population ... Free genetic variability: that part of the total g. v. which is manifested by the phenotypes in the population and which is, therefore, exposed to the action of (qv) selection. Potential (= "concealed" or "cryptic") genetic variability ...

I'm not at all sure that those comments are likely to help find a solution. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The topics both exist, and are different; but the articles, or at least one of them, are garbage. Someone with a cold wet towel over their head needs to rewrite them. Not sure it's me! Maybe we can put a comment on their talk pages. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Writing the comment might require more than a cold wet towel. Perhaps a cold wet towel and a fan? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:07, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

And three fingers of gin in a tall glass with ice, lemon, and bitters? Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:10, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Mmm. And perhaps we could call in Capability Brown to clear away all the evidence of the Norman Conquest and whatever that material is. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Heritability

Heritability can be estimated using many different research designs, the twin model is just one of them. The newest way is to compare nominally unrelated individuals, see GCTA. The point is to compare individuals who may or may not share environments but who differ in their coefficients of relationship. But the wording in the article's lede is ok now I guess.Victor Chmara (talk) 14:35, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes. I think the new wording has a desirable simplicity, since probably most readers will either be new to the topic, or looking for a quick refresher on the meaning (I think of Type I and type II errors as an example of a page that many readers will look at simply for a reminder of something that they already know deep down: needing a reminder of whether a type I error is a false-negative or a false-positive.) More complex material needs to be explained, but not all in the lead section of Heritability; perhaps in time it can be split into several pages. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:07, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Errors of type I and II are such terrible choices for names of statistical concepts. Completely opaque.--Victor Chmara (talk) 15:59, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. I don't know why anyone would continue to use those terms (I should strike them all out of this talk page). You might be interested in this article in the SignPost that a friend recently pointed me to. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:44, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Adaptive system

Oh my, another one. Practopoiesis was deleted as single-authored (note the delightful combination of IP, SPA and matching researcher's name, what a coincidence) but here it is in all its dubious splendour. Tweak, fillet, or discard? Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:41, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Eeek. My first thought was to look for the wikipedia page about this contest for inclusion in the "see also" section, but sadly, there doesn't seem to be one. How about redirecting to Complex adaptive system? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:22, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Althusserian theory that takes structural totalities, what's not to like? I'll consider the options. But I think the CAS article is worse than the AS one, actually. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

There's a lot more of those articles, e.g., Generative science. Is there a wikipedia policy somewhere to the effect that name dropping does not constitute science, or even philosophy of science? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:48, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

No, as long as they're full of structural totalities, they're great! I zapped the Practopoiesis, tho'. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:41, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Myco...whatever

Mycoremediation is almost^{[1][better source needed]} worth^{[citation needed]} keeping as a museum piece^{[page needed]} for its delightful attitude to reffing... and its twin sister, Mycofiltration. Almost sounds scientific!!! Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

That Paul character really has a way with words, who'd a thunk of putting myco and filtration together in such a cunning fashion! Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:10, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Mmm. I've had a look with Google scholar, and most of the "papers" are short essays or PhD theses that uncritically accept earlier claims, which ... I then had a go with "mycoremediation experiment" and have found one or two small trials, like D'Annibale et al 2006. I did find http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0077170 a PLOS one paper from 2013 on cleaning up endosulfan]. So there is some evidence. On mycofiltration, it's far worse. I found a 2012 Dutch proposal for a programme of research. There are lots of claims by PE Stamets, and some test-tube scale experiments which show that if you put a soggy mat of fungi in the way of some dirty water, er, some of the dirt gets stuck to the fungi, wow. I'm almost ready to propose sending it to AfD, though I guess people would argue the topic was notable even with fringe elements. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I think mycoremediation could be merged into Bioremediation. I have access to that article that was cited on Mycofiltration before I zapped it, and it is definitely about eating mushrooms to counteract dread diseases. Let me know if you'd like to see it. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:41, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I'll boldly go. Chiswick Chap (talk)

Cambrian Shmambian

What a day, I keep running into daft articles, and I really wasn't hunting for them. Discredited hypotheses for the Cambrian explosion actually admits (repeatedly) that it's talking WP:BOLLOCKS. I don't think it's actually Creationist, though that could have been a motivation. Ideas? Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:06, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I recommend a nice refreshing walk outside in the drizzle as a break from working too long here in the drivel. I'm off to deliver a bag of medlars so someone who apparently needs them (but not, strangely enough, because they've been chased up a tree by a pig named Tarquin Superbus). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:24, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Spontaneous order

You were right, I gave it up. You may be amused, however, by the haircut I've given to Self-organization. One sentence I was almost sorry to chop boldly stated (without support):

Marvin Minsky's "Society of Mind", and the no-central editor in charge policy of the open sourced internet encyclopedia, called Wikipedia, are examples of applications of these principles – see collective intelligence.

Now THAT's what I call PROPER WP:OR. Shame it wasn't correct. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Marvin Minsky has written a lot, on many topics, but I think it violates WP:BLP to drop his name into that pseudo-scientific babble. Kind of nice, though, that we are being referred to as "collective intelligence", no? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:50, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Well yeah, but the idea that we're achieving order by working entirely without aim or purpose does grate. On the other hand, on Mondays...

Do you think that Spontaneous order is distinguishable from Self-organization, and if so, how? If not, a careful merge, watching out for those pesky discretionary sanctions... Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Crikey "Spontaneous order, also named "self-organization", can't argue with that. Self-organizing system and self-organising system are both redirects, and have been through their history. I think that one of those, could be a proper page, if it could be limited to engineering as in this, this, and this. The social sciences and "general systems theory" could perhaps be at spontaneous order, as in this. Sorry that that doesn't help with most of the bulk of the pages, though! Computer science would probably have to be mostly in with the other material. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:01, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Um, so you think that although they cover the same concept, they should stay as a sciencey article and a society article? Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm just not sure that I would be able to untangle general systems theory from the rest of the world. If you can see a way to divide them, I'd be happy to look over the results. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

It looks to me as if spontaneous order is the term used in economics and sociology, while the equivalent thing (probably much better defined) in the hard sciences is self-organization. I've added glosses at the top of both articles; the alternative is a full-on merge which would be quite something. I think we should remove all socio-guff from the science article as the spontaneity being talked about seems at least halfway metaphoric, the other half being half bs and (so on recursively for ever). But if you fancy a merge ... Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I asked a computer scientist, who thinks that the terms are probably used interchangeably, but that self-organizing systems are something special. I suspect that biology is separate from the other things. If you feel brave, take a look at Integrative level. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes. I went to Integrative level last week, and noted that the presence of Samuel Alexander and A. N. Whitehead indicated the likelihood of vitalism in that direction. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Structuralism (biology)

This one is definitely on the vitalist side and was rightly flagged up ... 9 years ago! Maybe you could give me a hand tidying it up a bit? I think some of the same sources as for self-organising system may help. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:41, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

There are so many of these poor articles that I keep having to go back to my contributions list to see what it was that I was initially trying to improve, before going off to chase the string of interdependent bloobers whose correction might eventually provide support to an improvement in the first article. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:38, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Mm. They are also old, which gives me hope: I doubt anybody could create such a thing today. I'm actually really enjoying tracking down the players in the structuralist thing (had never associated D'Arcy Thompson and Stephen Gould with Kauffman, for instance), and it's always nice to replace OR with historical fact. And I'm increasingly finding that my fixes on earlier articles make fixing the next one easier, as sources, quotes, images and wikilinks all come straight to hand. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

that's encouraging. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I've almost totally rewritten the article, and would be glad if you could pop by and give it a tweak or two. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:58, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

An intermediate level of spandrel spaciness

Very nice! Spectacular puffer fish! Describing spandrels inherits the use of "space" to mean a filled area, which might perhaps confuse some readers; a completely open spandrel such as many bridges have might not be any better as an illustration, though. There is this image, which might perhaps be a compromise between completely filled and completely open. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:00, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

It's a super example if we want to call it a "space". It's nice, of course, to use the original San Marco spandrel, in which case I can call it an in-between area, or something. Which way to go? Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

To the talk page, perhaps? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I'll just call it an area. But I think I'll use your bridge, I like the curly bits in the spandrel! Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Fisherian runaway

I just rewrote the first sentence of this ... see my edit comment there. Maybe more work to be done on the article? Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey, you have a way with words (or word-like entities), I'm impressed! Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:06, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Gotta keep those WLOs in order... btw, did you notice the merger proposal at Female sexual ornaments? Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:31, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Don't want them to fall off the track? That is a spectacularly bad article, and I think the main reason is an old style of citation, citing a whole book or a big chunk of one instead of carefully explaining, lazy writing. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:56, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah. It leads to Sexual selection in humans (student essay rehash of the same old all over again...) complete with ridiculous suite of inappropriate images instead of refs; and Secondary sex characteristic, exactly as bad, for the same reasons. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Argh! Can't work on wikipedia today, though, sorry. Will come back at some point with one of these. By the way, I doubt that citations are being properly used; after fixing a title and adding a link to the article at Fisherian runaway, a quick glance suggests that it is not an appropriate citation for at least the first use. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:53, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

OK, a bit of primitive agricultural practice required. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

They were right

I started on the evolutionary biology articles because of a comment in The Signpost back in January: "Impenetrable science": "[the whole area of] evolutionary biology is just a bunch of jargon."

Well, they were right. Today I've started on Homology (biology), a bit better but perhaps more obviously a mess than before (that's a good thing, now we can see the dust, spiders, and broken biros that had fallen down the back of the sofa). The tired old bird-versus-bat-wings were trotted out, and used simultaneously to explain homology and analogy! How confusing was that. So I've brought in some insects and (shock horror) even mentioned some plants. Of course, all the linked articles I looked at also used the same example: Flying and gliding animals gets my personal IgNobel prize for linking to homology with the text "Analogous flying adaptions in vertebrates". Yay! Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:15, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

That is disappointing. Without having looked at the article, I would have expected homology to have been thoroughly vetted by junior cladists, some of whom have been active around various pages (though sometimes rather confused about topics that are inherently more confusing than homology). I hope you don't burn out on this effort. I've been generally appalled by the state of science articles for quite a while, and by their tendency to take leaps in bad directions, but have been concentrating on more straightforward matters like which plant is which (because of that little matter of potential poisoning). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Sweet of you. No, not many cladists about; some geneticist(s) left a big heap which I moved to sequence homology, leaving the topic explained mainly by the high-school brigade, though fortunately of the Darwinian variety. I actually don't think that getting the top 20 or so evolution articles to a decent standard will be that difficult; I already got evo-devo and natural selection to GA (not perfect, but look how they were) without very much fuss at all. One problem is the growing queue/shortage of reviewers at GA; there are plenty of articles there, but I don't often see something I want to review, given that pop music and football are both pretty much off limits! Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:47, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Predatory journals

We might well feel sympathy for the authors that predatory journals scam, but the simple fact is that the essential quality of a predatory journal is that it lacks functional peer review, and as such it fails WP:RS. This publisher is also responsible for climate change denialist papers, for example, so has not standards at all. Guy (Help!) 20:22, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

It does not make sense to remove one of two citations after a statement that says that there is disagreement between sources. Also, WP:RS says to treat publications on the predatory list in the same way as self-published sources, and the advice for those is "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." (I think that should be changed to "previously or subsequently"). Treating Jeffrey Beall's list as gospel is harsh, particularly to Jeffrey Beall. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:50, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

WP:RS is not far wrong, but applying it blindly isn't what's intended and won't work well. Chiswick Chap (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Iranian Plateau

This article was already categorized in Azerbaijan categories. Is this correct/not? I don't see much about the country of Azerbaijan in the text. Thanks Hmains (talk) 21:31, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, that is difficult. Part of Azerbaijan is in the Armenian Highlands, and according to that page, the Iranian plateau is separate, to the southeast. There is no other part of Azerbaijan to the southeast of the exclave. I *think* that Iranian Plateau should not be in Azerbaijan categories, but I am no expert on this. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Hummm. The reason why I added the Europe category was that Azerbaijan itself and its categories and subcats are routinely placed in both Asia and Europe parent categories since Azerbaijan is on the border here. Hmains (talk) 01:52, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

Hello Sminthopsis84: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:30, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings1}} to send this message

Happy Christmas!

Holly in Kew Gardens

A very Happy Christmas and a restful Wikibreak!

Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:50, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

All the best for 2017!

Hello Sminthopsis84,
Enjoy the Winter Solstice and the Christmas and holiday season.
Thank you for all your good work during 2016 in maintaining, improving and expanding Wikipedia.
All the best for 2017! Cheers, — Gareth Griffith-Jones | The Welsh | Buzzard |  16:31, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

rv on Haloquadratum: "considerate style"

Hi, you reverted a simple grammatical fix, citing considerate style. However, there's nothing more considerate about "help to"; the difference is that of meaning: "help X" means "provide assistance to X" (i.e. "It helps sign your wikipedia messages", talking about a browser extension that does it automatically), whereas "help to X" means "To X is desirable" (ie. "It helps to sign your wikipedia messages", talking about how remembering to put the four tildas at the end is a good thing). mathrick (talk) 00:12, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

So you are saying that "may help position the cells to maximize" could never mean, even to someone learning the English language, that an agent is being assisted to maximize, similar to "help Petunia to finish her homework"? I do not agree that those two constructions always have different meanings. I think it is a rather complex sentence and consideration for the reader is desirable. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

WP:Articles for deletion/Female sexual ornaments

Guess you saw this already? Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:31, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

It's nice to see that. Salvaging that page would be an impossible amount of work because there are two many distorted or false statements as well as the overall problem of inappropriate structure of the page. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Sminthopsis84

(Charles R. Knight, 1922)

Thank you for all you did for this project in 2016, Sminthopsis84. May your house be safe, and may you and those having the privilege of your company enjoy good health in a Happy New Year 2017! Kind regards, — Sam Sailor 17:42, 2 January 2017 (UTC) Pass on! Send this greeting by adding {{subst:User:Sam Sailor/Templates/HappyNewYear}} to user talk pages. Automatic level-2 heading and auto-signing included.

New Asterid subfamily

Happy New Year! I've done some work on an article on Famatinanthus on my Sandbox, that still has to be created in its namespace. The text as it now stands reflects the article from 2014. However, it creates a big consistency problem as it deviates from the currently used phylogeny of the Asteraceae in the Angiosperm Phylogeny Website. Could you please advise me. Kind regards, Dwergenpaartje (talk) 21:09, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi Dwergenpaartje and Happy New Year to you too. I've added a little to your sandbox page to support that this is not taxonomic perversity but rather the result of new information. I think you can put it into main space. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:27, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Great, thank you so much! Dwergenpaartje (talk) 22:29, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Fisherian runaway, Mate choice

I see we're both still working on Fisherian runaway, now not a bad article. There's quite a lot of overlap with Mate choice: and sure enough, the relevant sections there are the worst cited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:45, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

(I responded to your edit when it showed up on my watch list.) I think there are probably quite a few surrounding articles that have problems of various sorts, though I won't have time for much work on this for a while. It is inherently hard to explain because there are so many interacting effects, and I think that sometimes the text just comes out wrong. This edit was prompted by what looks to me like a scrambled explanation. Perhaps I'm wrong about some of those; perhaps they would make sense to someone else. I fear, though, that even if we can trim it all down and make it clear, people will add their own incomplete or tangled take on it back in because it is an emotion-charged topic. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

It's definitely improving. I find that when a section is fully cited, the "chatter" markedly decreases, for example on group selection where everyone thought there'd be massive trouble and it all faded away. I've added a ref, but need one for the reliable-indicator hypothesis. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:09, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

GAs need less maintenance

I believe I once opined that once articles reached GA they were less trouble to maintain. "Usually" true, probably. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:59, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Helpful people wanting to insert their bit ... Short and sweet isn't the recipe for stability either, as I was recently reminded. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:58, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Nearly sorted, perhaps. Do take a look at Modern synthesis‎ and Extended evolutionary synthesis however. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Cycad

Somewhere along the line, an editor inserted Phasmatocycadales into the taxobox, although that order is mentioned nowhere in the article, nor seems to have an article at all. Can you help with this issue? --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:02, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. I think it should be deleted, but it is hard to find a citation for doing that. The Paleobiology database says that the name is "disused" but as far as I can see does not explain how that label came to be applied. Since the 2001 establishment of the order name based on the established genus Phasmatocycas, there is this from 2003 saying that they are less cycad-like than previously thought, and then this from 2013 seems to be as up-to-date an opinion as is available. Unfortunately, Phasmatocycadopsida shows up on a couple of pages as well, citing a 2015 textbook. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:28, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Coevolution

Yet another evolution article in a heap. I'm doing the usual, but in this case the main structure of the article is almost entirely missing, and even the lead needs to be replaced. I've created 3 main sections, on Flowering plants (coevo with insects, birds); host-parasite coevo; reproductive coevo with figs; ... and suspect there are other major instances. Ants/acacias were already described, and are perhaps worthy of more; I wonder which other examples you think are major? I doubt if the lichens will count as the algal partners are pretty non-specific, for instance. And the models section is pretty rubbish at the moment. Ideas? Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:13, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Oh deary my. The models section will require a longish diversion to fix Additive genetic effects. Perhaps someone has found that algae and fungi are differently adapted in different lichens, but as far as I know the research so far is largely restricted to morphology. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to disturb. I've realised that three quarters of the article is actually about mutualism; that numerous scattered bits were about host-parasite; and that predator-prey was not mentioned! So there are the three main sections. I'll try to mention cleaning symbiosis and other service relationships. It's already far more likely to be useful to readers than it was a day ago - I'm almost ashamed that Wikipedia can present such a total muddle on a major topic in evolutionary biology, but we're definitely shining a light into some very old, very dark corners and I do think they'll stay a lot better for many years to come, even if we occasionally encounter a cave bear or two! Looking forward to your help when you have a mo. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:21, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

I seem to have done a near-total rewrite. Nearly ready for GAN! As always, glad to hear what you think. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:34, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Evolutionary game theory

See what you think. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I do like the arrangement of the lead templates, they are very neat, and have a pleasing diversity of icons. I don't much like the use of "transpose" in the sense of moving to a different context in such close association with "mathematical form", which would tend to bring to mind the transposition of a matrix in linear algebra. Actually, I don't like that diagram with the n -> n+1 in it; n usually means number of individuals, and t is generally used for points in time. (Sorry, don't have much time at the moment to study this seriously.) Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Interesting! Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:21, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi Sminthopsis84 and Chiswick Chap

Just saying hi. HalfGig talk 14:21, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Good to hear you mate. Hope all's well with you, wherever you've been hiding: I've been hiding in plain sight... Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:29, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Greetings to you HalfGig. Wishing you many happy pursuits outside this wiki, and perhaps even some inside if you are so inclined. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both. I couldn't help but notice the blurb at the top of your talk page, about problems with wiki. That's why I disappeared. It's so frustrating to deal with all the issues wiki has and they never seem to get better. but I thought I might give it another go. I have thought of improving Asa Gray to GA. Can you guys look it over and/or suggest someone who can give it a good copy edit? In a few hours I'll look it over too. Thank you. Best to you both in and out of wiki. HalfGig talk 21:20, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Should " in the early Tertiary but diversified since then, probably during the Miocene," be "in the early Tertiary period but diversified since then, probably during the Miocene period,"?? HalfGig talk 01:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I think not because there are now two Periods (Paleogene and Neogene) within what was formerly called the Tertiary Period. I think it is rather confusing unless one has a very clear idea of the sequence, with the Miocene epoch in the Neogene, which is not the "early Tertiary". I'd suggest simplifying it, such as "relics of species that were formerly widely distributed but diversified later (probably during the Miocene)." There is a citation if a reader wants to know more detail. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 01:27, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

See Talk:Asa_Gray#Gray_and_Special_Creation a guy that made only 2 edits to wiki made an excellent point and I responded but I really could use help digesting and incorporating it. thanks for the answer to the periods. HalfGig talk 01:35, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm bringing a series of major evolutionary biology articles up to GA as I felt that we shouldn't have people in the real world complaining that the whole area of evolutionary biology was "just a bunch of jargon" over here. I'm getting practically no resistance on these big articles. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I think I'm now going to as Corinne to copyedit Asa Gray. User:Chiswick Chap, is there anything specific you would like help with? HalfGig talk 22:17, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Um, dunno. Maybe Sminth has an idea for both of us. Hmm. I've brought History of agriculture to a respectable state (you can easily go and see how it was before). Fancy helping me get it to GA? Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:33, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Sure. It's my #2 priority, after Asa Gray. HalfGig talk 23:08, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Actually I think it's almost ready to nominate, unless you find more burning issues to add. Medicinal plants on the other hand might be an enjoyable project - it's not badly written but needs a bit of work. You never know, even Sminth might lend a hand! Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:33, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Corinne would be a great choice for copyeditor, if she is interested and has time to do the work. Are there any more issues with the Asa Gray page that need to be settled first? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Is the subfamily Gymnarrhenoideae not monophyletic after all?

Hello Smithiopsis84, Thank you for your previous advice and assistance. Not long ago, I edited Gymnarrhena. Later, I came across A comprehensive generic‐level phylogeny of the sunflower family: Implications for the systematics of Chinese Asteraceae, which says: "The monotypic genus Cavea was closely allied to Gymnarrhena with strong support (PP = 1.00; BS = 96)." I've now also edited Cavea tanguensis. I'm again unsure whether I should change the taxobox, which at the moment does not include subfamily or tribe levels. I'm also a bit worried about having to unravel Gymnarrhena from Gymnarrhenoideae/Gymnarrheneae, because the latter would be very short indeed. If you think these changes are warranted, the phylogenetic tree in the Asteraceae and perhaps a few other articles, would need to be adjusted to remain consistent. Could you please have a look at both these articles? Thank you in advance, and kind regards, Dwergenpaartje (talk) 21:48, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

@Dwergenpaartje: Oh, and there's also an earlier paper "The genus Cavea, an addition to the tribe Gymnarrheneae (Asteraceae- Gymnarrhenoideae)". Compositae Newsl. 50: 46-55. Anderberg, A. A., & Ståhl, B. 1994. It seems that the plants are so rare that they haven't been included in studies often enough, so I wouldn't worry that standard databases haven't caught up with the news. If you have the energy to do the work, I'd say go for it. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 11:01, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Asa Gray

See User talk:HalfGig#Asa Gray.  – Corinne (talk) 03:07, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I've nominated Asa Gray for GA. HalfGig talk 12:48, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Rollback

When I do a diff it gives me rollback rights, but [1] doesn't show that. Nor does it show up in the list of users with rollback. I don't get it. HalfGig talk 00:54, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

It seems that you don't have rollback rights, as is shown here. I don't have it either, and there must be something else that we are using that is effective. I don't know what the advantage of that right actually is. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 04:16, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I have it, and it isn't very useful. One can always go to the last good edit, open that, and save: and this allows an explanation in the edit comment, which rollback alarmingly doesn't. Twinkle does a better job also, as it lets you roll back and slap a warning on the perpetrator.

The only real use I find for it is when I see a regular vandal (almost always an IP) in my watchlist. Being able to fix vandalism from the watchlist makes it easier and then it's not worth bothering with an edit comment – they know why there was a revert. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:01, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

It confuses me. I see its not there in the list or the list of users with rollback rights, but when I a diff I see this at the top of the right side: rollback (AGF)] || [rollback] || [rollback (VANDAL)]. It must be bundled in with some other right I have. I don't do much like vandal fighting and I don't want to be an admin one day; too much drama. I'm happy just editing plant articles and some gnomeish edits. HalfGig talk 12:25, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

@HalfGig: the implication of Help:Reverting#Rollback to me is that you shouldn't see the rollback link. Odd. If you go to this, do you see "rollback: 3 edits" against my last edit? Peter coxhead (talk) 12:36, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Yep, I see it there. HalfGig talk 12:38, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

So surely you must have rollback rights?? Peter coxhead (talk) 17:01, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't see that. So indeed, it seems that you have it, but for some reason aren't listed as having it. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:59, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't have rollback rights, but with Twinkle activated, I can rollback when comparing diffs. That doesn't let me rollback from my watchlist or when just viewing page history. Maybe HalfGig has a Twinkle like gadget that allows rollback in other contexts? Plantdrew (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't have Twinkle, as far as I know. But in my monobook.js I have this:

importScript('User:TheJosh/Scripts/NewPagePatrol.js'); npp_enabled = true; npp_num_pages = 5; npp_refresh = 10; importScript('User:Shubinator/DYKcheck.js'); //DYKcheck tool importScript('User:Ucucha/duplinks.js'); // [[User:Ucucha/duplinks]] ... HalfGig talk 20:23, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I was under the impression that rollback rights are given to an editor (either because they ask for it - like I did recently - or because another editor thinks they would benefit from having it), and they are informed when this happens. So it does seem odd to have rollback rights without being aware of having been given it, especially if the user rights log also yields a blank. Maybe it's a software glitch? As for rollback not providing for any explanation in the edit summary (I haven't used it yet, so have yet to experience this), this might be because it's only for reverting obvious vandalism, which doesn't require explanation. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:32, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

(current) [rollback] [vandalism] is now showing up when I see a list of user contributions. Hmm. HalfGig talk 01:16, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

And still not showing up here. Strange. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 09:08, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Probably easiest just to apply for the permission then, and see what happens. You could also clear out your monobook.js which seems anomalous too. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:24, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I opted for formally applying for the right and put in a link to this discussion. HalfGig talk 12:34, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Looks like it's coming from Twinkle. I have that selected in my prefs/gadgets. I noticed this when I saw an obvious vandalism on Talk:History of agriculture and rv'd it. HalfGig talk 20:15, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Just thought I'd chip in since I stumbled across this discussion from WP:RFR- That's just the rollback function provided by Twinkle. "[rollback] [vandalism]" and "rollback (AGF)] || [rollback] || [rollback (VANDAL)]" is functionality provided by Twinkle, which is separate from having wiki rollback rights. You shouldn't be able to see "rollback: 3 edits" though, which is only supposed to appear if you have rollback rights. Alcherin (talk) 01:16, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I now have full rollback. HalfGig talk 17:13, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

TGFT. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:29, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Bangladesh

I assume you're watching Bangladesh. What do you think of this edit to the article, and the ones just before and after it? The editor changed "its" to "it's" and capitalized "the" in "the United States". The edit summary "fixed typo" for a change in population numbers is a bit misleading, and the editor first changed "Singapore" (as a major trading partner) to "Saudi Arabia", then removed "Saudi Arabia" with an edit summary saying "removing doubtful information". What do you recommend, if anything?  – Corinne (talk) 14:42, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) It should be "the", lower case. Naturally it should only be "it's" if it can break out to "it is". Looks like a non-native speaker. It's bad grammar, change it. HalfGig talk 14:44, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. I've reverted the lot of them. The GDP figures need updating, but 2015 data is better than random numbers. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Got a source?

Pls see Talk:Pumpkin#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_31_January_2017 HalfGig talk 02:48, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Nevermind. I found sources by way of cucurbita -> pepo. HalfGig talk 13:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, RL is a bit overwhelming at present. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:13, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Mimulus luteus

See this new article I'm working on. Note the taxonomy, which I generally find as I have it in the article. But there's also this taxon: http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0211.htm

Can you explain this to me? I haven't quite figured out if one is outdated or what. Wiki species has the one in the article. Feel free to edit the article. I'm working on adding info from the external links into the article. Beautiful flower. HalfGig talk 03:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

It is a pity that wikispecies doesn't have a page for Erythranthe lutea (which I won't fix because I don't edit there). I find the chromosome numbers in the table on page 37 of this reference very convincing that splitting off Erythranthe makes sense, even if the plants are extremely difficult to tell apart. USDA GRIN has adopted that taxonomy. Unfortunately Tropicos is noncommittal, listing both Mimulus luteus and Erythranthe lutea. It seems that the taxonomy moved forward in 2012 and most of the databases haven't caught up. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:27, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. So I'll try cover that in the article and ask you to review later if that's okay. Thank you for your kind and prompt help. HalfGig talk 23:23, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

There's a PDF of that, or at least its dissertation predecessor, here. HalfGig talk 01:32, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

This is confusing. Various sources list them as synonyms of each other. If Erythranthe lutea should be split off what's left in Mimulus luteus? Oy vey. HalfGig talk 02:14, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

There would be nothing left in Mimulus luteus. This paper leaves only 7 species in Mimulus and puts 111 in Erythranthe. Oy vey indeed. The section that starts on page 5 called "Taxonomic options" discusses why they decided to do that. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 07:47, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Great find Sminth! It's a bear finding really good sources on this issue. HalfGig talk 12:11, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I suspect that horticulturalists will take a different view on this comment in the paper: "[the o]ther rationale for conserving Mimulus with a new type is not so strong. While popular horticultural species known as Mimulus appear exclusively to belong to American-centered generic elements that do not include the generic type, they are relatively few in number." Yes, they may be few in number, but they are well-known in horticulture (Mimulus cultivars are very popular summer bedding and basket plants, at least in the UK), and hence Mimulus is far more often used in this sense than any of the other genus names are ever used. Horticultural significance has been an important factor in other name conservation decisions. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:13, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

We not-very-botanical gardeners just think of them as "Mimulus", never mind the luteus given that they come in all sorts of colours. Perhaps "Mimulus (horticulture)" would be the right target, given that Mimulus the genus isn't going to be right either? Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a mess. Even the paper Sminth found, while very informative, presents 4 options for what the taxonomy should be. The whole issue is in flux (I can't find anything good published after 2012) and trying to write wiki articles on this will open a can of worms. Why did I have to pick this for a next article? Haha. I'll have to think on this one about what to do. HalfGig talk 12:22, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Wiki doesn't even have and article on Erythranthe. HalfGig talk 12:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Notice there's a typo in the paper, in the small print at the top it says 'circumscriptions' but in the title of the paper 'circumscription' ;-) HalfGig talk 12:52, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is a tangle and horticulturists will be upset, but that could become a similar situation to Coleus with its head note "For the popular ornamental plant, see Plectranthus scutellarioides". Coleus is now mostly used as a common name. There is nothing listed in Proposals and disposals, which would mean that nobody has made a formal proposal to do one of those drastic things like conserving Mimulus with a new type. I'm not sure, though, which are the popular ornamental plants in "Mimulus"; the M. guttatus complex has been intensively studied, but as far as I know it is of more interest as a wild-flower than as an ornamental. The many-coloured ones would include the F2 and later generations from crossing red ones with yellow ones, and perhaps other products from clever plant breeding.

How about creating a page for Erythranthe, without undoing Mimulus, saying that the genus name has been set up for what has also been called Mimulus section Erythranthe, perhaps with a list of species in the section/genus? If someone wants to go in later and write a lot about it, that genus page could be a good support. I'd like to see some work being done on that because, for example, we have Mimulus_carsonensis set up in January this year, but supported by a citation called "A Revision of Erythranthe montioides and Erythranthe palmeri (Phrymaceae), with Descriptions of Five New Species from California and Nevada, USA". Not very tidy, that; one doesn't publish the new name Mimulus carsonensis by putting it in wikipedia (I hope nobody adds "nomen novum" to that page in some misguided attempt to circumvent the spirit of the Code of Nomenclature.) Ugh! I'm extremely busy IRL right now, but will try to move some of those to the Erythranthe names. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 04:32, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Love your edit summary on that last post. I can help but it's such a tangle. Oy. HalfGig talk 11:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I've created User:HalfGig/Erythranthe. We can work on it there til it's ready for prime time. Naturally, you and anyone else who'd like to help feel free to edit that page. HalfGig talk 12:32, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I must away, but will try to do something when I get a little time. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 01:06, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

P.S.: This will all become much easier to tidy up when volume 17 of Flora of North America appears. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 11:29, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

When does vol 17 appear? Also, see User_talk:Diannaa#Attribution_question. If we're going with leaving at least part of Mimulus in place, I'll copy the body over to my sandbox with the appropriate edit summary she suggests. Otherwise we may want to merge the two articles together. Or we could move Mimulus to the not yet created main space Erythranthe and when we're ready merge the sandbox with that. What do you think? HalfGig talk 12:26, 4 February 2017 (UTC)...UPDATE: I just finished going through Mimulus and found references for that plethora of citation needed tags. Wherever the info ends up, it'll have a ref. HalfGig talk 16:25, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

There is no definite date for publishing the volume yet; the parts are in various stages of completion. Yes, even with this drastic update, we would leave part of Mimulus in place. That's nice, to have references in place. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

OK, so what I'll do is copy all of the body of Mimulus to the sandbox, with attribution. Then we can cut down Mimulus to what we want (should it look like Coleus?) and make the sandbox what it should be. HalfGig talk 21:03, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

OK. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm done with the genus Mimulus. Please look it over to ensure it makes sense and you're happy with it. When you're ok with it, I'll go to the sandbox, which I'd prefer not to do til you check Mimulus. No hurry, whenever you have time is fine. HalfGig talk 00:15, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Okay thanks. I think I'm done with Mimulus. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 03:12, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Looks great. Moving over to the sandbox. HalfGig talk 03:15, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

See the sandbox. I'm adding in geographic locations of the species right now. I think an article I previously made, Crataegus suksdorfii‎‎, is the same thing as Mimulus suksdorfii‎‎, which is now Erythranthe suksdorfii‎‎ ????

No, definitely different plants. The Erythranthe is a gentle plant that doesn't bite; the Crataegus is relatively gentle for that genus, but it is a big woody plant with thorns. I've arranged for some photos of the latter to be uploaded. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

THank you. So there are two plants with Suksdorf's name, Crataegus and Erythranthe (was Mimulus) ? HalfGig talk 22:04, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes. He was a shy person who discovered new plants and people named them after him, hence "Suksdorf's hawthorn", etc. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:05, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm done adding in locations. One still puzzles me. Apparently, Mimulus repens is in Aus/NZ. But all else I've got on the partial list is native North or South America. Does Mimulus repens really still belong in Erythranthe? HalfGig talk 21:40, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

No, it has become Thyridia repens (R. Br.) W.R. Barker & Beardsley. It is documented in the 2012 Barker et al. paper. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 03:05, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

See email, I sent a great journal article. Now I guess I need to rename all those mimulus articles I list. Then fix their categories, etc. What a mess I walked into haha. If you, or anyone, cares to update the body of User:HalfGig/Erythranthe before it goes to main space, feel free. I'm not what to do with the Diplacus stuff. HalfGig talk 03:12, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Thyridia is a genus of butterflies. I also see Thyridia repens in Barker etal. Is it allowed for a name to be used for two completely different living things? HalfGig talk 12:14, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

It would be nice to set up a page for that monotypic genus and to redirect Mimulus repens to it. The hurdle that I don't know how to cross is what the name of the page should be, perhaps Thyridia (plant). Yes, because the nomenclature codes for botany and zoology are independent, there is no rule against homonyms across the kingdoms. That was supposed to be straightened out somehow for the BioCode, but that hasn't come to pass, at least not yet. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:41, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Gosh, a question I can answer, I think. Morus (plant) is how WP names mulberries; Morus (bird) is how it names gannets. Seems a nice solid precedent, if that's what you need. Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's the way to disambiguate genera. But we're pretty well standardized on having plants at the binomial title when a monotypic genus name is ambiguous. Make the article at Thyridia repens and make a redirect Thyridia (plant) (the redirect should get {{R from monotypic taxon}} and Category:Monotypic plant genera) See WP:MONOTYPICFLORA where ambiguous genus names are mentioned as an exception to the usual rule of having a monotypic genus at the genus title. The main WP:AT consideration in play is naturalness; nobody (who's not already aware of the intricacies of Wikipedia titling) is going to add some parenthetical term to their search, but they might search for a binomial (especially if there not aware that the genus is monotypic). Plantdrew (talk) 22:47, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the guide to how to achieve that. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:32, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

So we need to set up a page for the genus Diplacus as well. Not monotypic. Not sure when I'll get to that. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Please note that that change of the genus name Mimulus to other genera names is published in a non-peer reviewed journal that is edited by one of the authors of the paper. This is a major conflict of interest. No paper suggesting these genera changes has passed peer review and so is high suspect in the eyes of the scientific community.

Erythranthe and Erythranthe suksdorfii

Sminth and all talk page stalkers: I've moved these to article space and done a dual nom for DYK. Feel free to review. As for the last email about Latin names, etc, I've left the listings of old and new names at User:HalfGig/Erythranthe so we can still work on getting that info into the genus article. HalfGig talk 00:45, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

1) I'm trying to work through the Latin stuff. Does Mimulus nanus = Erythranthe nasuta? HalfGig talk 21:34, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Barker et al. is a good source. Mimulus nanus => Diplacus nanus. Mimulus nasutus => Erythranthe nasuta

2) Erythranthe tibetica, another geo wacko one, all the others are in N. and S. America and then this one is in China? Is it really E.? Is it a case of Asa Gray disjunction? HalfGig talk 22:22, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

There are a few of them in Erythranthe sect. Sinopitheca and sect. Mimulasia. Various plant genera are in the western Americas and in eastern Asia, which have been connected through Beringia. Asa Gray disjunction is even weirder, eastern Asian and eastern North American plants.

Just found Erythranthe stolonifera is in Mimulosma and found in Russia. I'm putting the "Beringia disjunction" in the article.HalfGig talk 16:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It seems it's "Beringia refugium" HalfGig talk 16:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'd say that calling it the refugium is OR. The connectivity between the two modern continents would be sufficient to explain the distribution, and the fact that Beringia wasn't glaciated is not a necessary step to the conclusion. To support such a statement would require a citation saying that the timing of the diversification of this group of plants leads to such a deduction. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:54, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

3) Erythranthe szechuanensis from Szechuan China? same question as item 2. HalfGig talk 03:37, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

4) Erythranthe sinoalba as in Sino=China, from Yunnan, China. I'm seeing a pattern here. haha. HalfGig talk 03:55, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 09:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Prahran, Victoria

Hello, Sminthopsis84 - Just wondered what you thought of this edit to Prahran, Victoria. Is the addition of "inner" necessary? Is it an improvement, or is it unnecessary?  – Corinne (talk) 00:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is appropriate, and people tend to think of Melbourne suburbs in that way. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

O.K. Thanks. Does that mean residents there also talk of outer suburbs? Inner suburbs and outer suburbs?  – Corinne (talk) 15:32, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, people do talk that way. Since I don't live there now, I'm not well informed about which suburbs fall into which group. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

All-around Amazing Barnstar

		All-Around Amazing Barnstar
		Sminth, I can't thank you enough for all the times you bail me out. Your superb work on botany articles can not be understated. You are a very kind, helpful, and courteous Wikipedian. Thanks so much for all your superb collaboration over the last few years! HalfGig talk 03:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Aw shucks. Thank you HalfGig, and thank you for dealing with these large taxonomic muddles which probably nobody else would have got around to tackling. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 03:36, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Erythranthe

I've been looking around for enough info to do other Erythranthe species articles but there seems to be paltry few sources on the ones that aren't done already. HalfGig talk 12:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Epistasis

Dear editor, I'm relatively new on wikipedia, and was wondering if you could help me with an issue of the Epistasis-page: someone seems to have moved content from the page "Epistatis" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis) to "Non-allelic_gene_interaction" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-allelic_gene_interaction ), creating two exactly the same, or at least highly similar pages in the process. You seem to have worked on the Epistasis-page in the past: does it make sense to revert this edit/merge the pages/or are these really two different things?

JSHuisman (talk) 13:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@JSHuisman: Oh, that is a mess. It can be seen here that the duplication occurred only a few months ago. Since then, it is clear that people have been making small edits without realizing that there is such duplication. Do you have time to work on merging the better material by retrieving it from the edit history? In the meantime I will try to replace that duplicate with a redirect (which will require help from an administrator). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

You don't need an admin simply to replace the text of Non-allelic gene interaction by a redirect to Epistasis or vice versa. The real problem is merging any new and useful content. Sigh... Peter coxhead (talk) 21:29, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Ask about an admin doing a history merge. HalfGig talk 21:33, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I can't work out what Yahadzija was doing, or thought they were doing. Looking at their talk page there seems no point in asking. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Peter and HalfGig. Yes, a simple redirect would fix the content problem, but the page history is problematic, and I agree, the problem seems to have developed because of wiki-naivete rather than an insightful approach to content improvement. Some edits from the duplicate page would be worth salvaging, though. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:58, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

From what I can see there have been no changes to "Non-allelic gene interaction" since Yahadzija created the page, the real problem is that all the page history of "Epistasis" before the move is now missing (or rather attached to the wrong page). Trying to read "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_guide/Fixing_cut-and-paste_moves" only serves to confuse me further: would it be best to add the recent changes to "Non-allelic gene interaction", remove "epistasis", and rename "non-allelic gene interaction" OR can an admin simply add the old history back to the "Epistasis" page? JSHuisman (talk) 08:37, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, though there are some recent changes to Epistasis that would be lost if Non-allelic gene interaction, with the page history, were simply put in place of it. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:23, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh well. I've tried various ways to get the history merge done, but have failed. The good news is that the subject matter is no longer duplicated. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 10:07, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Precious two years!

Precious

Two years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda. Such a light touch. So cheering. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:29, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Today's post on Casliber's talk page

Please see today's post at User_talk:Casliber#Please_move_Erythranthe_aurantiacus. I feel horrible. HalfGig talk 13:40, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, muddle happens. I don't think you should beat yourself up about that; everyone makes mistakes sometimes. It is a huge undertaking to move all those species around, but we'll get it straight eventually, one by one. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:26, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Diseases

Sminth and @Chiswick Chap:...please look and the new Erythranthe section on diseases and pests. Can the statement "Diplacus, Erythranthe, and Mimulus are subject to a very similar set of pests and diseases" pass wiki muster or do we need to reword it or add more sources? Thanks. HalfGig talk 18:48, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

As an English sentence it's fine. Sminth can comment on the sourcing. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's a reasonable statement. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 07:44, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I added a photo to D. jepsonii. HalfGig talk 13:39, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Good sleuthing! Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Nesom

Sminth and Chiswick Chap...you may have noticed Guy Nesom has written a lot on M., D. and E.. This article I just found by him is golden: [2]. Over the next 1-2 days I'll incorporate it into the three genera articles. HalfGig talk 13:28, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Good find! Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:41, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Nesom says he wrote that just for the molecular geneticists, who are the only ones wanting to keep all in M. Everyone else agrees with the split up of the genus M. He's completely baffled at their recalcitrance. HalfGig talk 15:04, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Mmm. Thomas Kuhn said that scientists never changed their minds, you got a paradigm shift only when they retired (or died, presumably). Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking that too. People are naturally resistant to change. In this case, I completely agree. The evidence supporting the change, esp. DNA, is overwhelming. HalfGig talk 15:11, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Nesom seems to enjoy emailing about this stuff. I mentioned Cucurbita and he said he wrote the entry for Cucurbitaceae for Flora of North America Vol. 6 (pub 2015). He also says our Cucurbita article is "beautiful". Pats all around for us on that one. HalfGig talk 15:15, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Should just mention that Wikidata needs quite a lot of work. The Swedish, Winaray and Cebuano wikipedias are using something closer to the new taxonomy, but French, Wikispecies and Commons are not. For now, I'm unhooking the English pages from the French Wikipedia and attaching them to Swedish. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 01:45, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Oy vey. Thanks. I've never messed with wikidata. HalfGig talk 01:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Eloquently put, "messed with" is exactly what I've been doing. It is clearly a bit tricky. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:06, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I've kept away from its sticky tendrils as far as possible. I discovered that it goes haywire when the page I'm linked to in another Wiki (say, French) is a redirect! The link exists but the tool denies there's an article there, etc etc. Dreadful. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. I've seen that there is considerable argument going on there, and that there are templates to deal with some problems, but, frankly, I don't have much of a clue about it. Sometimes I can make it work, sometimes not. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 08:59, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Erythranthe

On 22 February 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Erythranthe, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Suksdorf's monkeyflower of the genus Erythranthe was named after the mostly self-taught immigrant botanist Wilhelm Nikolaus Suksdorf? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Erythranthe), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Coffee // have a cup // beans // 12:03, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Erythranthe suksdorfii

On 22 February 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Erythranthe suksdorfii, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Suksdorf's monkeyflower of the genus Erythranthe was named after the mostly self-taught immigrant botanist Wilhelm Nikolaus Suksdorf? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Erythranthe suksdorfii), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Coffee // have a cup // beans // 12:03, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Jack jumper ant

Hello, Sminth - Is this edit an improvement to Jack jumper ant? If so, I think a comma is needed. If "Southeastern Australia" is supposed to name a province, I suppose the original word order would be all right. If Tasmania should be considered a part of "southeastern Australia", then the new wording is right, with a comma.  – Corinne (talk) 04:44, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

It was clumsy. Please see if you think another comma is needed. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 05:01, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

No, it's fine now, and clearer. Thanks.  – Corinne (talk) 15:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Erythranthe peregrina

Sminth, could you, @Chiswick Chap:, and @Peter coxhead: look over my draft at User:HalfGig/Erythranthe peregrina before I move it to article space? I'd especially appreciate a look to see if I got the genetics and other technical stuff right. Thank you. HalfGig talk 13:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

@HalfGig: I had a quick look and made a few formatting changes. It seems to me that the sections aren't correctly headed; both are really about the origin of the species. "Description" should be a description of the plant; "Distribution" or "Distribution and habitat" just about where it occurs. For a hybrid, I guess the order should be Description – Origin – Distribution, parallelling the normal "Description – Taxonomy – Distribution" order for a species article. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:41, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

@Peter coxhead: Good improvements. Thank you. I also added the British English template to the talk page since it's native to Scotland and changed one naturalized to naturalised. I should be able to get to your suggestions tonight. HalfGig talk 17:03, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

@HalfGig: re the ENGVAR, since I'm a fan of "British English with Oxford Spelling", I prefer the "-ized". :-) Peter coxhead (talk) 17:28, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Drat. That makes things difficult. -Ize/-ise is the first thing I look for when I'm trying to figure what ENGVAR is being used. Color/colour is the second; there are other words with -or/-our, but as a bare search string, "our" turns up in many US English words. Plantdrew (talk) 17:44, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

We can change it back to Yank speak if you want. It's not even in article space yet. HalfGig talk 18:58, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I've moved it to article space and nom'd at DYK. Feel free to look over the nom at WP:DYKN and the article itself. HalfGig talk 02:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

This will be the lead DYK today beginning at noon UTC. HalfGig talk 11:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Palynology

You probably have this article on your watch list, but in case you don't, you might be interested in reading Talk:Palynology#Suggestions. The suggestion is worded in such academic language that it makes little sense to me, but I guess you will understand it.  – Corinne (talk) 01:05, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't expect to be able to find the time to work on that for at least a few months, though. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:29, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Peach blossoms in Feb, a month early, proof of global warming

• 

This is my own peach tree. HalfGig talk 14:45, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Pretty. Hope you get peaches. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:49, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Aw. The ornamental pear is out on the common, and my hazel catkins are nearly over, having been very beautiful in the evening light. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:05, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

It had peaches last year. HalfGig talk 18:44, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Beyeria

Hello, Sminthopsis84 - I was reading today's featured article, and then looking at a few linked articles, and I found Beyeria. I noticed that there is no image for this article. Would it be possible to find one for the article?  – Corinne (talk) 00:45, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) There are three on commons in Category:Beyeria (plant). I added the one I thought best to the article. HalfGig talk 01:02, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both for finding my talk page useful to collaboration. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:25, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome! Some editors might have taken that as dry sarcasm. ;)  – Corinne (talk) 02:33, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Me dry? Never. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:41, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Now for my plum blossoms

• 

I nom'd it for valued image on commons. We'll see what happens. HalfGig talk 13:58, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Very nice. I grew up eating 'Santa Rosa'. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:09, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

It's now a valued image. HalfGig talk 12:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Erythranthe improvement

Sminth, @Chiswick Chap:, and @Peter coxhead:. As you know I've been regularly working on improving Erythranthe. It and Asa Gray are waiting at GAC for a GA review. I've hit a brick wall and was wondering if you could look at Erythranthe and suggest and/or make improvement to get it to GA level. Thank you. HalfGig talk 01:33, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Diplacus used to be separate from Mimulus, then not, then again HAHA

I just added this to Diplacus from a 1905 source, HAHA: Diplacus used to be a separate genus from Mimulus but not later than 1905, it was merged into Mimulus until the 2012 restructuring. "cite journal|title=The Gardener's Magazine: Diplacus glutinosus|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FZdOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA741&lpg=PA741&dq=mimulus+culinary+use&source=bl&ots=k9xst6Q-na&sig=ENnBroFUsL6H6L1YZ3uz6in4gxY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMroaJ0MDSAhVU1mMKHQydD4Q4HhDoAQgbMAE#v=onepage&q=mimulus%20culinary%20use&f=false%7Clocation=London%7Cpublisher=Gardeners' Magazine Office|year=1905|page=741|volume=XLVIII|date=18 November 1905"

HalfGig talk 00:50, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of that happens, early insight by skilled people was over-ruled, sometimes on spurious grounds, and then more information becomes available that proves the early insight correct. Taxonomy used to be done by force of intellect; now it is done by throwing more and more data into the pot. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 08:36, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Plus, I would add as a former academic statistician, a lot of the early molecular phylogenetic analyses were based on wholly inadequate data in the first place (just a few genes and a small sample of species). Peter coxhead (talk) 11:41, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. And then there is the fraught subject of DNA barcoding. It is good to remember that there have been various fads in taxonomy, where a new characteristic has turned everything around. Examples include pollen characteristics, chemical analysis, and chromosome counts. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:38, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

HAHA...same for Erythranthe "The establishment of Erythranthe as a genus (Spach 1840) included only the type species, E.

cardinalis. Greene (1885) reduced Erythranthe to a section of Mimulus " HalfGig talk 12:15, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Liquorice

Hello, Sminthopsis84 - I was just reading the article on Liquorice, and toward the end of the Liquorice#Food and candy section there is a tag that says "dubious - discuss". I thought perhaps you might be able to address this. Also, I see that there is a Liquorice#Folk medicine section. I wonder if the statement about the use of liquorice in folk medicine in Egypt that appears in the paragraph right before the one with the "dubious" tag should be moved there.

I also wonder whether you think this article could, or should, be expanded. If you think there is enough information in sources that could be added to this article, perhaps it would be a good candidate for nomination at WP:Today's articles for improvement.  – Corinne (talk) 15:22, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't know much about Today's articles for improvement; this would require changing quite a few pages. There are several species called liquorice and more than one species yields the product, so that page needs to be split into a species page and a product page, as we have for products like coffee. It is a bit unfortunate, I think, that there is Liquorice (confectionery) which says that it is about confectionary flavoured with that root, but then discusses confectionary that is not flavoured with it. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 09:58, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I see you've done some work on the article; thank you. I don't know much about licorice (American spelling), so I can't do anything about either article. Every time you see articles like this you must think, oh my gosh, another big project. Well, you could save it for a rainy day.  – Corinne (talk) 17:14, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Iron gall ink

I was just looking at the latest edit to Iron gall ink. Does vinegar contain citric acid? I thought it contained only acetic acid.  – Corinne (talk) 22:50, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Citric acid is possible depending on what the vinegar was made from, but not a likely major component. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

That page is becoming a mess because of a lack of citations. I made some changes. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Species

What to use on listcruft

I've had a go at citing and reshaping Species into something vaguely acceptable. If people think it's worth a shot I'll put it up for GA, but would be pleased to hear what may be missing from what is quite a slippery and rambling concept. I've had some, er, interesting comments already, but even they are grudgingly coming around! Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Species led me inevitably to Hybrid (biology), a shocking mess. I'll take a slasher to it now. Again, suggestions for creative destruction welcomed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Species is a page that I've despaired of in the past, back in 2013 and 2014 (Talk:Species/Archive_2). When people hack at material that could have been a good basis for page improvement, the effort required to combat the destruction becomes too great. Perhaps bringing it to GA would help. If you have enough energy, you might want to look at the version from before LeProf slashed it. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:46, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh dear. I think it's about up to speed, but I'll take a look at what was there before the barbarians galloped through waving scimitars or whatever. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:02, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I've had a look through the past several years' worth, and most of his deletions were either instantly reverted, or not very significant; and the good news is that the material which was uncited and unstructured then, is cited and organised into tidy sections now. I can think of efforts that could be made on the article, but I'd say it now covers the main points; and (touch wood) it seems that the awkward editing has subsided and any vandalism is swiftly dealt with. So I'm surprisingly sanguine. Now, let's see if there are any GAN reviewers left out there (and THAT's becoming a serious problem). Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:12, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for looking over all that. I didn't have the heart to do it myself. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:34, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Erythranthe peregrina

On 14 March 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Erythranthe peregrina, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Erythranthe peregrina (pictured) is a rare example of a species developing in multiple locations from parents that normally produce sterile hybrids? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Erythranthe peregrina. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Erythranthe peregrina), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Mifter (talk) 12:02, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Have some Poutine

I'm sure this is one of your favorites, enjoy:

HalfGig talk 23:42, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Why thank you, that looks like the genuine article, which I've actually never tasted. I'm told that the right cheese is not available in Ontario or Nova Scotia, only in Quebec. Thai Green Curry Poutine in Ottawa didn't seem to be the best kind to begin one's gustatory foray, so enjoyment awaits me yet. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:48, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps User:Chiswick Chap has had a Cornish pasty:

HalfGig talk 01:48, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

We have those here in Australia. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 07:13, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The original Cornish pasty was the tin-miners' lunch - meat, onions and potatoes one end, apple pie the other, with what you botanical types 'd call a septum down the middle! Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:32, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Gosh! Here they are usually uni-locular with meat, onions, and white turnips and some randomly chosen other vegetables throughout the locule. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 07:36, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Some of the structures seem to have atrophied as the selection pressure from tin-mining husbands demanding a proper lunch was removed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

You guys are hilarious! As for me, I'll have some pulled pork barbecue with vinegar-based sauce:

HalfGig talk 11:01, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Hybrid (biology)

I'm wrestling with this minotaur of a beast. Any suggestions for how it should be organised? It rambles about without quite repeating itself, so it's probably tetraploid itself... Would love to get it into better shape but can't see how. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:51, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

The section called "Types" and much of the lead could perhaps be better combined, leaving almost nothing in the lead (and there's also the matter that Types might seem to mean Type (biology) or Type–token distinction). On a related note, Intraspecific breeding is horrible, and I'd like to find a way to get rid of it but can't see how (I was hoping to trim the See also section of the hybrid page ...). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 10:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks. Why not boldly merge Intraspecific breeding into Breeding, with redirect ... and cut anything that's a duplicate. I'll have a go at the Types section. Any other ideas? Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:50, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, dealt with that one. Wiktionary is seriously deficient for terms like "double-cross hybrid", "top cross". Some definitions might be obtainable from the source that I've just used for a quote here, but not all. Then we'd have to link to wiktionary quite a lot, work which some other people would undoubtedly undo. I don't know that using wiktionary is a good solution. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Mmm. On my (rare) visits to Wiktionary, I found it absurdly argumentative, and essentially incomprehensible for its lack of citations, so you just have to hope that things came from somewhere sensible and that the Powers that Be are fundamentally rational. We'll do better to create redirects and definitions within umbrella articles (I'll look at some of them). I've straightened out the top-level structure of Hybrid (biology) but it still feels like a rag-bag list within that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:24, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, I've fully cited the article, and created no fewer than 15 redirects. Not quite up to the standard of the guy who made a redirect for every name for any wine known to oenologists, but not bad all the same. The article's even looking tidy but would be pleased to know what else could be improved. I was wondering about drawing a simple diagram to show triploid sterility, perhaps it would be worth it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:21, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Wow. Do you have any idea where we could define S1 generation, something like F1 hybrid, but produced from self-pollination? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. Apomixis or something? Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:33, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

List of plant hybrids

I've split the rather large list of plant hybrids out as a new article. Every entry in the table is cited to authorities ....... but the words of Bloggs 1921 and Doe 1951 are not expanded anywhere (nor were they in the original article). Might someone with botanical knowledge care to lend a hand? Tedious, I know, but we are putting things in order. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:54, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Blaming Canadian Arctic air mass and global warming

My fruit tree blossoms bloomed a month early due to global warming. Then last week that Canadian Arctic air mass damaged much of my peach, plum, and pear blossoms (persimmons hadn't bloomed yet). I think they'll all still have some fruit, but right now I'd call it moderate damage. ☹️ HalfGig talk 12:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, we Canadians derive glee from such events. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:36, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Sadists!!! HalfGig talk 23:51, 21 March 2017 (UTC)