Talk:Bee Gees

Why isn't nationality mentioned?

It should say, just like every other person or band, that "The BeeGees are an English band...." Why isn't it mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.102.116.114 (talk) 18:59, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Although the men were born on the Isle of Man the group was formed in Australia. Later in life they all lived in Miami. This seems to cause edit wars and it was decided to leave the origin field blank and explain the facts in the text. Look in the talk archives. GroveGuy (talk) 19:18, 13 February 2014 (UTC) Like

Agreed. (Although, to be precise, men aren't born—even on Man!) The brothers did live in Manchester for a while, but that was before they were a band, so "English band" wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Best if the article doesn't try to specify, since the band's nationality cannot be summed up adequately in one word. Rivertorch (talk) 14:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

They were from England so it should say English. Please add it on... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.218.165.233 (talk) 05:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, but it's more complicated than that - GroveGuy (talk · contribs) and Rivertorch (talk · contribs)'s responses above are exactly right. The explanation in the text spells out their background more clearly than any one word description could, and that solution did put an end to the edit wars between Manx, English, and Australian factions - not to mention the Floridians. Sometimes you have to think outside of the box, and it worked here. Tvoz/talk 21:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to the categorization, the appropriate solution if they're from multiple places is to categorize them in the national subcategories for all the countries that pertain — both Category:Pop music groups and Category:Rock music groups are categories that must be kept as empty as possible of individual articles, with as close as possible to all articles being diffused into the subcategories — although I grant that the pop category is not fully diffused at this time, with a grand total of ten other bands sitting alongside them because the appropriate national subcategories don't exist yet, as things now stand the Bee Gees are the only band in the entirety of human existence who are sitting directly in the undifferentiated rock category at all. And that's not appropriate. Being claimable as from more than one country means that a band should be subcatted as all the claimable countries, and not that they should be left in the undiffused parent instead — if they can really be claimed as Australian and British and American due to the migratory complexities of their lives and careers, then that means they properly get subcatted as being all three of those things, and not that they get some unique "transcending nationality entirely" exemption from the way all other bands are supposed to be catted. Bearcat (talk) 17:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with their being in multiple national origin categories, but for that to make sense, it would need to be all of their origin locales (i.e., Isle of Man, Australia, England/Manchester, USA/Florida). Of course the above discussion is about the text, particularly the lede, and the infobox. The edit wars over this were counter-productive and got us nowhere - when we settled on the current wording all of the factions were more or less satisfied. Tvoz/talk 05:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Wrong names

In the pictures you have confused Maurice and Robin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.89.74.38 (talk) 21:14, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any misidentification - which picture are you talking about? Tvoz/talk 04:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

records sold

The lead mentioned over 120 millions while further down in the article it states over 200 million sold. Both entries are sourced, but there is some further explanation/research necessary here. To the very least both figures should be mentioned together in the same place (the lead).--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing this - fixed now. Tvoz/talk 02:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Comma

Hi Tvoz. To me, it is pretty clear that there is no need for a comma in the case in question. However, I fully agree that linguistically what appears or sounds clear, correct or obvious to one person is often not the same to someone else. But as you can see at serial comma, the overriding justification for a serial comma is to deal with (or introduce) ambiguity when one (or more) of the elements in a series could refer to the same entity, as in "a car arrived and out climbed Paul + a plumber + John", where "a plumber could refer to (apposition) Paul (or even John). In a straight "banana + apple + pear", there is no possibility that any of the elements is an apposition of any other, therefore, "banana, apple and pear" would not require a comma. The Bigg brothers are banana, apple and pear — don't know which is which, though. ["Smiley"]. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 10:39, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Maurice Gibb cause of death

This article says Maurice died from a heart attack. The Wikipedia Maurice Gibb article says he died of cardiac arrest. A heart attack and cardiac arrest are not the same. Bunkyray5 (talk) 03:42, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The source cited in the present article says heart attack, and we follow the source. Will take a look at the sourcing in the individual article. Tvoz/talk 00:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Influences

Oasis were heavily influenced by The Bee Gees. Surprising but true. Noel and Liam have both said in interviews that they listened to the Bee Gees 1960s greatest hits album, endlessly, while writing and recording "Definitely Maybe" and it was influenced heavily by the early Bee Gees psychedelic sound. Along with the Beatles obviously. Would be nice to add to the article. As it's a surprising fact! 81.140.63.228 (talk) 16:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I did a quick Google search but I only found that the Gallaghers saying they liked the early Bee Gees music but there was no mention of it influencing their music. But if you can find a "reliable source" to back it up, then it can be added to the article. Kerry (talk) 23:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That would more appropriately belong in the Oasis article, not here - this is talking about who influenced the Bee Gees, not who they influenced. Tvoz/talk 07:18, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Song catalogue section

Information in this section would be better suited in the articles about the albums dicussed than the main Bee Gees article. Any thoughts on that section? saltystrawberry (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

RfC Removing British from everything Gibb

Tvoz is removing British from group and the Gibb brothers saying in this discussion that they have consensus (claiming these two discussions [1] and [2]) However going through the page histories show they have been listed as British, and many editors have defended that information for years, including my self. I do not see any consensus to make the changes that Tvoz preferrs. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:33, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. This is not a neutrally-worded RfC. Please consider rephrasing it neutrally and ending it with a simple question that users may !vote on. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:36, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure how else to write it, whats your suggentions ? - FlightTime (open channel) 16:39, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

For starters, stop personalizing it everywhere you write about it (e.g., your RFPPs, my talk page, your edit summaries, this rfa.) It's not what I "prefer", it's what has worked for years on the Bee Gees article, after much edit warring over Manx/Australian/British etc. This is really not about me. Tvoz/talk 04:08, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Any time an RfC is calling out someone by name, a mistake is being made. We closed WP:RFC/U for a reason. If you have what you think is good case for disciplinary action regarding a particular user, you take it to WP:ANI. With clean hand and WP:DIFFs to prove your case.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:04, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Remove British

• Use consensus version that uses a sentence instead of one word. See discussion section below for why, but also consider this timeline:
  • born on Isle of Man in 1946 (Barry) or 1949 (Robin & Maurice), lived there until 1955 (9 years/6 years)
  • moved to England 1955, lived there until 1958 (3 years)
  • moved to Australia 1958, lived there until 1966 (8 years)
  • moved to England 1966, lived their until 1975 (9 years)
  • moved to US 1975, lived there rest of their lives - 2003, 2012, to date (Maurice 28 years, Robin 37 years, Barry 42 years so far)

It is complicated, and we found a solution years ago that is acceptable under Wikipedia guidelines and stabilized the articles, while giving more information to our readers than one word would. Why change this? Tvoz/talk 04:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• I have rarely found it useful to have a group given a nationality, but I have often found conflict and drama resulting from instances such as this where people argue over nationality. As the article currently stands we have a very factual and informative statement of the situation which surely cannot offend or irritate anyone: "The Bee Gees were a pop music group formed in 1958.... Born on the Isle of Man to English parents, the Gibb brothers lived in Chorlton, Manchester, England, until the late 1950s. There, in 1955, they formed The Rattlesnakes. The family then moved to Redcliffe, in Queensland, Australia, and then to Cribb Island. After achieving their first chart success in Australia as the Bee Gees with "Spicks and Specks" (their 12th single), they returned to the UK in January 1967, when producer Robert Stigwood began promoting them to a worldwide audience." Such a neutral and factual wording has existed on this article for quite some years. If the article is altered to give the group a nationality, that has the potential for future conflict as some editors might wish to change it to Australian on the basis that the group itself was formed in Australia and licensed there, even if the individual members of that group were British and proud of it. Others might wish to see them listed, as Britannia does, as Australian-English. Some editors from the Isle of Man might wish the band to be labelled as Manx - though I'm not sure how far that would fly. But we do get Scottish folk who resent it when people born in Scotland are listed as being British or worse still as English! The current situation works and is encyclopaedic. It's probably best to leave it be. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:25, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

• Keep status quo (i.e., do not mention nationality in lead paragraph). I wasn't planning to !vote in this RfC, since the wording is unacceptably misleading, but apparently that's not going to be challenged. Assigning a nationality to the band in the lead paragraph has been tried before and proven disruptive; let's not go down that road again. The article has been quite stable for years in basically its current form, and it has served readers well. Anyone curious about the location of the band at any point during the many years of its existence—from its origins in Australia to its first significant commercial success in the UK to its multiple decades of superstardom in the US—has only to read a little further. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 20:52, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment There is nothing wrong with how the article is currently presented. I prefer it to be explained this way with bands and other topics which have a varied international history. However I also have no problem with the compromise suggested below. It basically is saying the same thing as we already have, but might appease those insisting on British being made more prominent. AIRcorn (talk) 08:59, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Keep Insert British

Note: Shouldn't this be "Insert British", as the article has not said British since at least 2006, which resolved what appears to have been an ever changing set of national descriptors. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:29, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it should. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 15:46, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

YTvoz/talk 22:06, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

• British - The norm is to provide a nationality, and this seems dominant in Google once you separate out the tribute show "Australian Bee Gees". I think technically it should be paraphrasing about where the group was based since the article is the group, rather than about the nationality of the individuals or where they lived before they were a group. I'd give more weight here to a book from the 1970s when they were widely covered for example. That 10 years ago the page couldn't pick so left it blank I give a minor weight. Markbassett (talk) 00:23, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• British. In this list of "British" references from a Bee Gees Biography, there are three quotes from the band themselves where they quite clearly say they were British.[3]. If they say it, who are we to say otherwise? David T Tokyo (talk) 01:39, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• British. The world of the music business (as found in Variety, Billboard and other publications) and the more public media of the 20th century used the term British more often. Binksternet (talk) 01:50, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• Passport. British citizens are British, rather than arguing, we should be finding details on their citizenship status. Α Guy into Bοοks™ § (Message) -  13:10, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, Robin and Maurice are dead, so it might be hard to determine that. Barry reportedly has British and American citizenship. This is why we developed the narrative sentence description rather than the one-word approach which is not required. It has worked, keeping the article stable n this aspect for years.Tvoz/talk 08:06, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Compromise

• British, but explain. It's significant that they were not based in the UK through most of their professional career. This need not be in the lead sentence but in the lead section, something identifying them as British-born (the Isle of Man is British territory even though, like Scotland, it has its own institutions), having been largely US-based, and with additional details. Manx is a cultural identifier rather than a nationality for WP purposes, like Cherokee. It belongs in follow-on text, not the "just the basics" opening line.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:08, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: How, specifically, would you adjust the current wording to implement this? Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:25, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm skeptical much of a change is really needed; just inclusion of "British" somewhere in the lead per WP:ABOUTSELF and MOS:IDENTITY – the Gibbs consistently self-identify/identified as British. If people insist on monkeying with the first few sentences, something like this might work: "The Bee Gees were a pop music group formed in Australia in 1958 by the British brothers Barry, Robin, and Maurice Gibb, and later based in England then the United States." Or something to this effect. I don't think this is really necessary, though. The lead already has all this info, just not crammed into the first sentence or two. The desire to do so seems to be a symptom of the "nationality-itis" that's plagued various lead, infobox, and flag-icon debates for years. I agree with Rivertorch below, "I still fail to see how the status quo version in any way diminishes our readers' understanding of the Bee Gees.", other than that the word "British" should be in the lead somewhere, in reference to the Gibbs. Identifying those born on the IoM as having been born there is sufficient for IoM stuff; we do not need to use "Manx"; doing so will not make the article clearer or better, just harder to understand for more people (and I say that as someone way more familiar with the IoM than average for non-residents of it).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:22, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

I support this proposal. Just add in the lead that "Bee Gees was/were a British band" and cite the "British" to [4]. The other stuff about the Isle of Mann and Australia can be fleshed out in the lead and body. WWGB (talk) 01:51, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

You're forgetting that this latest round of nonsense specifically started when someone inserted "Manx" again. You may think we "do not need to use Manx"and I totally agree, but the Manx chauvinists disagree. So I think we are better off leaving off all of those identifiers and sticking with the very clear prose - it's been the only way we've managed to stop the dueling nationality folks. Calling them a British band or the like, I'm afraid, will start it up all over again. (So why not just call them American in honor of the majority of their lives spent here?) Tvoz/talk 05:38, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

They should be called an "Australian band", simply because they had their first hit there... Isle of Man, England, USA, that's too complicated! Aussie first! --Io Herodotus (talk) 06:38, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

This why we stopped boiling it down to one word! Tvoz/talk 08:08, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

This is disingenuous. The consensus supporting not including this information is currently on this talk page (from 2014). Also, FlightTime started it [5]. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:21, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, the consensus clearly has been there for years. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 03:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Nationality is a matter of consensus? Just how far do you think I'd get if me and my mates turned up at JFK, holding British passports and told the official there that we'd had a discussion and the consensus was that we were American? Nationality is matter of record, not consensus. David T Tokyo (talk) 07:59, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Bands do not have a nationality, individual people do. WWGB (talk) 08:35, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

OK. I'll go along with that. You want to tell me how a band composed of three brothers, two of whom are twins, all of whom are from the same parents, cannot have a common nationality? David T Tokyo (talk) 17:31, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

David T Tokyo, everything at Wikipedia is a matter of consensus; it's arguably the most fundamental policy underpinning what we do. You've given pretty much a perfect illustration of a false analogy, but to answer your presumably rhetorical question, I assume that doubts raised about the validity of your British passports would lead to considerable discussion to get to the bottom of the matter. If you were lucky, you'd be released and on your way in half a day or so. Then again, you might find yourself put on a flight back to where you came from or even arrested and charged with making false statements. Fortunately, the stakes involved in this discussion are not so high! As WWGB noted, a band is not an individual. To expand on that a bit, legal or official nationality of a band's individual members is only part of the story here; there's also where members were living when they were born, when the band was formed, when it became commercially successful, when it achieved superstardom, and so on. Rightly or wrongly, in years past these factors led to innumerable instances of drive-by changes and edit warring, so the decision was made simply not to mention nationality in the lead paragraph. This has worked out rather well, not only for watchers of the article but also, more importantly, for readers, who have only to jump to the second paragraph to read about the geographic details. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:23, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Rivertorch, everything at Wikipedia is NOT a matter of consensus. For example, it is NOT a matter of consensus that Everest is the highest mountain on Earth, or that Hydrogen is the lightest element. Why is it not a matter of consensus? Because these are FACTS. Consensus only comes into the picture when facts are disputed.

To the matter at hand - the Nationality of the Bee Gees. THEY say (repeatedly) that they are British, THEY have been given a national award only handed out to British citizens. It matters not one jot where they live, how long they've lived there, who they've married, where they were born etc. I know this because I am a good example of it: born in Malaysia, lived out east, spent 20 years in London, lived in Tokyo, now living in Italy. But I am, and will always be, British. How do I know it? Because THAT'S WHAT MY PASSPORT SAYS. You may take a different view, but you would be both uninformed, speculating and, ultimately, dead wrong.

The bottom line is this: unless they changed their nationality - and there is not one shred of evidence to suggest they have - the Bee Gees are, and have always been British. Play your games by all means, insist that consensus trumps facts, but all you're ultimately doing is diminishing Wikipedia. If you want to make the point that they lived abroad, I'm sure there's space in the article. But it doesn't get away from the fact that they are British. And no amount of consensus will never, ever change that. David T Tokyo (talk) 18:36, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

No, David, in fact, Barry is an American citizen as well being as a citizen of Britain. Two passports. The three of them were born on the Isle of Man (but not their brother Andy) and were awarded the highest honors that island offers, as natives - and there have been ardent voices here - most recently that re-opened this discussion - insisting on calling them Manx. Do you know for a fact none of them had Manx passports? And then there are the Australian chauvinists who insist they are Australian because of their youth there, I suppose. All three moved to America and as I said Barry is an American citizen. (I don't know about Robin and Maurice, both Florida US residents for many years). And let's not even get started about "English" vs "British", which distinction quite honestly I barely comprehend and frankly couldn't care less about. This compromise (a result of consensus) of not mentioning nationality in the first sentence but following immediately in the very next paragraph with a sentence that explains their origins, has been the best solution, which effectively ended edit wars over this minute point. What has changed that makes anyone think peace would reign if we called them British? Why are you so insistent on your own preferences rather than interested in the stability of the article, or the demands on its regular editors to monitor and adjudicate this? Tvoz/talk 04:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Hi Tvoz, thanks for reply. I'll take your last point first - I'm not insisting on anything. If I was I would have changed it, and I've absolutely no intention of doing that. I'm saying as forcefully as I can that when the Bee Gees themselves say that they're British, and do so repeatedly, unless it's quite clear they're mistaken - and they accept they are mistaken - it's both inappropriate and incorrect to say otherwise.

There's been a lot of discussion about living overseas, making it big elsewhere, the fact they're a band etc. etc. For me, this is both a canard and a slippery slope. It took me five minutes to work out that if I applied these principles elsewhere I could put forward a perfectly valid argument that Abba aren't Swedish and nor, indeed are either the Rolling Stones, or even the Beatles, British. I'm sure I don't have to tell you what a can of worms that lot would be to open up.

Let me dial it back a bit. I fully understand how edit wars can happen here on Wiki and have seen it happening myself many, many times. Nationalist pride, or whatever, wades into the argument and the next thing you know the whole issue is a mess that needs managing before the page combusts. As has been the case here, the issue is discussed and consensus is finally achieved. However, it never ends there; people (newcomers etc.) keep the issue alive by continuing to question it - all the more so if it looks like the basis for the consensus was to stop ongoing edit warring, rather than get to the heart of the issue. And that's what I believe we have here. A compromise that has ultimately ended up preventing people from describing the band the way they do themselves. And that cannot possibly be right.

I'll leave it there. Y'all know my points by now. Thanks for indulging me! David T Tokyo (talk) 05:21, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

My goodness, I've stepped in hornets' nests before, but this time it would seem that the nest has been placed on my foot. Maybe we're talking past each other, David T Tokyo. Let me try moving the italics to a different part of my earlier sentence: Everything at Wikipedia is a matter of consensus. Mount Everest and hydrogen are not at Wikipedia, but we have articles about them, and how we present information on them is very much a matter of consensus. Consensus doesn't change facts, but it does ultimately determine how facts are related in any article.

I guess you're saying that multiple nationality and British citizenship are mutually exclusive? I wasn't aware of that, nor was I aware that bands could formally have a nationality. I have no dog in this fight; I couldn't care less whether we label the Bee Gees a British band or, if we do, where we assign that label. I do care about the stability of the article, though. The bitterest, most longstanding disputes on Wikipedia involve matters of nationality, and for years now, this article has proven to be something of a success story in that regard. I find it sad that my attempt to preserve that success has been met with shouting and accusations of game-playing, and I confess that I still fail to see how the status quo version in any way diminishes our readers' understanding of the Bee Gees. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 05:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Bright Whites

Did they all patronize the same orthodontist?96.235.138.179 (talk) 17:07, 15 October 2017 (UTC)Adolf Fidler