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Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed

November 3

Identification of biogrpahical subject..

The figure in question

The figure in question

Anyone able to identify which Sir Hugh Hastings this is? the article on Baron Hastings lists 2, and I'm not sure which one this is.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

If I read everything rightly, there are six Hughs in that article, but the problem is that all of them were deemed to be barons only centuries after their deaths (or definitely weren't barons at all), so I don't see how any of them would stand out above the others. (The whole thing is rather confusing; twelve of the first fifteen barons were Hugh or John, including five of the first six barons being Johns). Here are the Hughs, as I understand them:

• Hugh 1: Son of Baron I and not a baron himself, no dates. Father of John (baron VI) and great-uncle of Hugh 4
• Hugh 2: Son of Baron II and not a baron himself, 1307-1347
• Hugh 3: Son of Hugh 2 and not a baron himself, and father of Hugh 4, no dates
• Hugh 4: Baron VII, 1377-1396
• Hugh 5: Baron X, 1447-1488
• Hugh 6: Baron XIV, 1515-1540

As you've maybe seen, the source image, File:Three knights.png, includes a depiction of Thomas de Beauchamp, 12th Earl of Warwick (1338-1401), whose active life was contemporaneous with that of Hugh 4 and potentially Hugh 3. Meanwhile, the image also includes Sir Robert de Septvans, of whom there appear to have been several; it's obviously connected to File:The original brass of Sir Robert de Septvans - geograph.org.uk - 783181.jpg, which according to the website of the church where it's located, depicts a Robert who died in 1304. So I guess this all means that these three weren't all contemporaries, and maybe none of them was contemporary to either of the others. Nyttend (talk) 12:50, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Aha, I got it. If you search for <kent brass "hugh hastyngs">, you get several references to a Hugh buried at Elsing, and our article on the church, St Mary's Church, Elsing, has a whole section entitled "Hastings brass". There can be no question that the replica of this brass is the same as the one in the picture you supplied. The church article reports that the subject died in 1347, so we're looking at Hugh 2. Nyttend (talk) 13:18, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

And now I found c:Category:Sir Hugh Hastings, d:Q18671482, and de:Hugh Hastings. Finding the first bit is hard, but once you do, it all falls into place :-) Nyttend (talk) 13:21, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

As an additional point which may prove useful in similar cases, on the shield depicted there is a "label of three points" superimposed on (differencing) the arms it bears: this is most often (though not always, especially not for royalty) the conventional indication, especially (though not always) when the label is argent/silver, that the person is the eldest son of the contemporary bearer of the undifferenced arms, and since it's a funeral brass, the subject must have died before succeeding his father. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 17:26, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

In early (and Continental) armory a label might only mean that the bearer (or her father) is someone other than the senior male of the line; I don't know when it came to mean "eldest son" more often than not. — I was puzzled that the shield here seems to show only a label! Took me a while to see the maunch behind it. —Tamfang (talk) 01:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Fair points. As we were already sure that the subject was English (and not really early, because of the armour style), my remarks related only to English heraldry. Other jurisdictions did/do things differently: for example, in Scots heraldry, cadency beyond the eldest son (where a label is also used) is indicated by a system of bordures rather than English heraldry's brisures. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 10:39, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Ah here it is, Joseph Fowler's Some Feudal Coats of Arms (1902), which I couldn't find on the shelf earlier. Only one entry for a Hugh Hastings, showing the same brass. "Hastings, Sir Hugh, of Gressing, Norfolk, summoned to a council in 1342—bore, at the siege of Calais 1345, or a maunch gules a label (3) azure (F.) see Monumental Brass; borne also by Sir Nicholas at the first Dunstable tournament 1308; Cotgrave and Parliamentary Rolls, and by Sir William (E.i.) Harl. Roll. Another Sir William, banneret (E. ii. Roll), bore, a label (3) charged with the arms of Pembroke, chequy argent and azure three martlets gules; Parliamentary Roll." (I use italics here in place of the book's small caps.) "E.I" and "E.II" presumably mean during the reigns of Edward I (1272–1307) and Edward II (1307–1327); but I cannot guess what "F." means; the book has no obvious table of abbreviations. —Tamfang (talk) 03:27, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Golden arches

I was eating in a McDonald's restaurant a few minutes ago. Nothing unusual about that, but at the foot of the bill I noticed the words "Som Restaurants Ltd A franchisee of McDonald's Restaurants Limited". That was the first I knew that McDonald's is a franchise operation, quickly confirmed at McDonald's (I like the redirect from McDonalds). The first Kentucky Fried Chicken in Western Australia was opened nearly half a century ago in Melville, on the corner of the Stock Road and Canning Highway. I had an idea that some outlets were sold off after issues with Colonel Sanders and our article confirms this is also a franchise operation. How many of the big name brands are franchises? The article lead refers to KFC as having 20,000 locations and being second only to McDonald's in sales volume. Isn't that a bit misleading? Surely the sales accrue to the individual franchisees. 94.192.183.95 (talk) 16:07, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the majority of international chain fast food restaurants are at least franchised in part although Chipotle Mexican Grill evidently has none (according to our article, although it also has a franchise category) or very few [1] (that ref keeps opening some dumb survey thing but if you close it, you can see it makes the claim there are a few legacy ones). Note that stuff like [2] can be misleading. It seems to suggest Starbucks no longer franchises but I'm pretty sure this isn't true. I'm sure that Starbucks still has Master franchises in a number of areas [3] and I suspect they will continue to use that to expand into new countries if it makes sense. In addition, I'm fairly sure some of their master franchises also operate at least in part on a franchise basis in their regions. And this is a fairly common arrangement. In other words, even if a restaurant only has corporate stores in the US or wherever they started, probably some of their operations in other countries are on a master franchise basis, and these may or may not use franchises themselves. Nil Einne (talk) 16:28, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

BTW, KFC has an interesting arrangement in Australia. I believe Collins Foods owns most or all of the restaurants in Queensland and Western Australia and possibly NT. [4] In other areas, Yum! Brands either operates or franchises to other partners such as Restaurant Brands (not to be confused with Restaurant Brands International) [5]. There tends to be differences in KFCs operated by Collins and other one, e.g. I believe the Collins ones generally have Hot n' Spicy all year round. And they often also don't take part in promotions or have different prices. See e.g. the discussion here [6]. Nil Einne (talk) 16:50, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what purpose it would serve to break the numbers down by the individual franchisee as you suggest. Franchisees "own" their restaurants, but the concept is owned by the franchisor and they exert direct control over what goes on in the store. For example, they negotiate with and inspect vendors and DCs. It varies by franchise, but the franchisees are in many ways more like store managers with profit sharing than "owners" in the sense that you or I might choose to open our own restaurant and operate it. For example, the franchisee cannot usually make any decisions about menu items, meal preparation, suppliers, or hours of operation. Matt Deres (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Really? I used to work at an Arby's that served unusual menu items (baked potatoes and waffle fries), unlike everyone else in the region, even other stores owned by the same franchisee, and it seems that every Arby's has different hours. Some have breakfast while many don't, and I know one Burger King in my area served no breakfast when I moved here. Nyttend (talk) 02:06, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Franchises are everywhere and its only the small difference of ownership seperating them from 100% companyowned branch offices. Most Car-dealers and -repairshops are franchises in sense that they are "officially licensed" by some big company or even multiple to sell or repair specific brands. Amazons "Marketplace" is another example and everyone knows how successful this became or how many independent Bookshops it killed. Its strangely the juridical framework that enables and supports this, altho its obviously killing what economics describe as "free market". Independent commercial operations often find themselves in aggressive legal- or price-wares against franchise operations they cant win because they dont have the same resources or reserves for that and that may be the main reason why the franchises are so successful and widespread as a commercial concept. --Kharon (talk) 05:58, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

November 4

The Big Street's name

I had a guess that "The Big Street" is actually a slang for 'The Broadway'. Maybe Runyon made up this slang, maybe it was an exist slang of The Broadway criminals. Can anyone approve or disapprove my guess? Did Runyon call The Broadway "The Big Street" in other stories he wrote? Thank you, --אביתרג (talk) 07:06, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe it's a variant of "broad street". Back then, Broadway was called Great White Way (or Gay White Way). --212.186.133.83 (talk) 08:54, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

The term shows up a few times here and it does seem to mean Broadway. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 10:07, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, אביתרג (talk) 09:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Largest geographic language

What are the three largest languages in sub-Saharan Africa in terms of having the predominant geographic distribution of native speakers Pls provude sources. Basri sheyhat (talk) 18:15, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

If you're asking which languages are spoken over the widest areas, this will be closely related to total number of speakers. In Nigeria, Hausa has 44m, Yoruba 30m and Igbo 24m. In Ethiopia, Oromo has 40m speakers. The individual articles (Igbo language etc.), give an indication of where the speakers reside. 2.25.226.253 (talk) 18:50, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

• Possibly Swahili: “Swahili serves as a national language of four nations: Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, and the DRC.” Loraof (talk) 01:22, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
  • There is a better saying that Swahili was born in Zanzibar, grew up in Tanzania, fell sick in Kenya, died in Uganda and was buried in the DRC. Шурбур (talk) 09:06, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
• You may want to take a look at a linguistic map of Africa. Again, it depends whether one counts native dialects of, say, Malagasy or Somali as separate entities. Шурбур (talk) 09:06, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

The OP didn't specify African-origin languages, just native speakers, so let's not forget colonial languages. French as a first language is not necessarily widespread, but Portuguese appears to be, with our articles saying up to 40% of the populations of Angola and Mozambique speak it natively. Those are two pretty big countries. And while Afrikaans is only widespread in the western half of South Africa and southern half of Namibia, that's still a large area. --Golbez (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Somali looks big at File:Map of African languages.svg. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:33, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

In the low-cost airline, intercity train and intercity bus market

How much profit does the cheapest seat that showed up make? Compared to not selling that seat but not having to buy the extra fuel and other costs for 1 extra passenger? Did those intermetro area busses that sold the first seat of each bus for $1 sell that seat at a loss? That's an order of magnitude cheaper than before they entered that market! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Some links:[7], [8]. 2.25.226.253 (talk) 19:06, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

I would recommend the YouTube channel of Wendover Productions. They do video essays on a variety of different topics, but one of their specialties is the economics of air travel. There's dozens of good videos there, including an entire one titled "The economics of airline class" That would be a good launching point for your research. --Jayron32 13:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Or read our article Marginal cost for the mathematical method the business uses to find the optimal cost-profit(aka price) spot. --Kharon (talk) 13:52, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

November 5

Two-trees statue in Bethlehem

Do you know where I can find some information (author, title, date, etc.) about the sculpture, which apparently depicts a pair of trees, standing in the middle of a small roundabout (Google Street View link) at the intersection of Star Street and King David Street in Bethlehem (31°42'33.1"N 35°12'16.0"E)? It's located in the vicinity of the Catholic Action Cultural Center and Grand Park Hotel Bethlehem. — Kpalion^(talk) 16:46, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

This is the only mention of it I can find, however it's a very brief mention and does not give any additional information. It looks like olive trees for what it is worth, so that may help narrow your search. --Jayron32 19:19, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Jayron, though, as you said, not much info there. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

There's no listing for Bethlehem in List of public art in Israel nor Israeli sculpture, but Palestinian art lists several museums and galleries who might have a lead. The sculpture seems to my eye to reference Olive wood carving in Palestine as much as the living trees used by e.g. Ran Morin. Perhaps ask the experts at Israeli Tourism, or contact the office of the mayor of Bethlehem, Vera Baboun? She has been encouraging artists such as Banksy. --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 17:59, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

November 6

Last precious-metal coin bearing the Queen's image issued for circulation

What was the last coin made wholly or partly with gold or silver that bore the image of Queen Elizabeth II? So far I've found that Canada maintained a silver coinage after 1968. Are there any other Commonwealth countries that maintained silver coinage even after that?—azuki (talk · contribs · email) 09:58, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Australia stopped in March 1968. See https://www.ramint.gov.au/fifty-cents HiLo48 (talk) 10:06, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I think, to clarify, 1968 was the last year for Canadian silver circulating coinage. The Montreal 1976 Olympic $5 and $10 were spent (most likely deposited in banks) when the price of silver was low, and likely the Calgary $20s leading up to 1988 too, but that is not real circulation, they would never be paid out by a bank to meet the needs of commerce.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

There is the sovereign, to whatever extent it still circulates in the Middle East.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:12, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

From this discussion, [9] I found that Gibraltar has a circulating silver coin [10] and yes they do have QEII. But they are currently selling [11] at £5 above the face value of £20 so I suspect they are another commemorative coin not intended to actually circulate. They aren't mentioned at Gibraltar pound. The highest there is I think the alpaca [12] ones. Like the Canadian example above, someone who buys them as bullion may I guess try to deposit them if the value of silver drops, but that would probably be about it. (While commemorative circulating precious metal coins are common, in most cases the bullion or purchase price is so much above the face value that no one is ever going to redeem them at face value.) Nil Einne (talk) 15:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

BTW that discussion and [13] this one does mention Gibraltar issuing silver and gold coins at face value. But particularly the later discussion and also [14] seems to confirm they didn't actually circulate in practice.

It seems the Canadian government did something similar recently [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] which had similar issues. Actually even banks sometimes would reject them, at least in part because they couldn't do anything with them but send them to the mint since no one would want them. I mean maybe a tiny number of people would convince shop keepers or whatever to take them, and a tiny number of these would convince some customer to take them, but it must have been minuscule even in the Canadian case. (Probably non existent in Gibraltar.)

By comparison, a commemorative 50 cent coin was issued in NZ in 2015 with 1 million coins being minted [20]. It was coloured and had a special front but just used ordinary metal and was designed in cooperation with manufacturers of coin handling machines that it would be recognised and accepted. I bought a bunch of these when they were issued and did actually normally manage to convince check out staff or shop keepers to accept them. And of course self service check out machines also accepted them without issue. The later, and I assume some of the former would have also given them out. (I expect they were especially used when buying poppies or donating for ANZAC day.) I doubt I was the only one to do this, so these probably really circulated, although not much. (I never received one but I hardly use cash normally.) You'd probably need something similar for one of these precious metal coins to actually circulate to any real extent.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:08, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The UK is also issuing a twenty-pound silver coin at face value, and has done since 2013, see our rather poor article Twenty pounds (British coin). It may have been them who began the trend of issuing these silver coins at face value. Since the silver in it is worth less than the face value, the Mint gains through seignorage. Of course it would lose the twenty pounds if the coin was redeemed (though it would have the silver) but I bet that's a rare event. I wonder what would happen if someone presented one at the Royal Mint's gift shop in Wales? (full disclosure: when I visited there last year, I used a debit card).--Wehwalt (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint, but unlike Australian and Canadian banks, UK banks do not accept non-circulating coinage, even though it is officially "legal tender". The Royal mint offers "money back (i.e. face value) for 6 months", but that's it. I don't have a source, so can someone else google this? Eliyohub (talk) 16:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Gresham's law is relevant here. It effectively dictates that if silver coins were put into circulation, they would likely rapidly be hoarded and disappear. Eliyohub (talk) 16:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Gresham's law is not a universal. The melt value of the zinc in U.S. pennies is greater than the face value, and no one is hoarding pennies to melt the zinc and recover it to make a profit. Pennies became worthless (physically) twelve years ago: [21], and yet the U.S. government still makes a metric shitton of them every year, and they aren't being hoarded for their metal content. There's a certain irrational nature to the value of metals, and exotic jewlery metals like silver and gold carry a significant value merely because people think they should be valuable, which is why people hoard silver coins, but not zinc coins (with a minuscule copper veneer). --Jayron32 02:49, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

That's what you think Jayron, but see If Laws Change, 'Penny Hoarders' Could Cash in on Thousands of Dollars. Alansplodge (talk) 21:01, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Silver coins are hoarded and melted down because they can be sold easily. Most coin dealers have a set price for a dollar face value of such coins, and the trade is legal. US cents and nickels may not be melted or exported, per federal regulation (authority granted, I believe, by the Coinage Act of 1965). So no one will pay you the metal value, except of course for enthusiasts like those cited in the link Alansplodge mentioned. It is not against the law to hoard them. You're just not going to make a short term profit on them like you would melting down silver coins.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:48, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Incidentally, coin shortages happen, on a local basis, all the time, because of public hoarding. Some places inflation has eroded coin value and local law enforcement is weak, so the coins get melted regardless of what government says. Or the public find a coin with a hole in a center makes an admirable washer, and for cheaper than the hardware dealer. Or the new coin will work as a slug in British vending machines. But getting back to the OP's questions, not considering sovereigns or non-circulating legal tender (and the odd error coin), the answer seems to be "1968".--Wehwalt (talk) 22:01, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

When the last commemorative coins were issued the Royal Mint instructed banks, post offices and shops not to accept them. They are no doubt redeemable at the Bank of England. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 17:57, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

The standard 1909-1981 US penny has never been more than $0.024 above face value and the standard postwar nickel never more than $0.047 above (daily prices, I didn't try to look for instantaneous) while by 1980 coins above nickel reached $3.58 1980 dollars per dime and it was legal. No wonder Greshams law happened. I suspect 4.7 cents per coin and $4.25 per pound would be enough to activate Greshams law in some or many countries, just not here with such strong anti-melting laws and in some states even free bottle deposits, easily harvestable. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:41, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

But the silver coins had already left circulation by 1980, meaning there was no disruption to the coin supply by the price spike (yes, there were some part-silver Kennedy half dollars around, but they sat in banks and so weren't needed for commerce).--Wehwalt (talk) 02:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

To get there it had to cross the level that caused supply problems (possibly below par if there was enough speculation, face value was a price floor and market value after all, which is better than most other investments). Silver coins only had to be sellable for a few % over face to exceed the ~$4.25 2011 dollars per pound fiat undervalue of the best day to melt nickels (if legal) and they exceeded that by over 2 orders of magnitude. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:43, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Azeri breakaway region

Why did the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic change its name to Artsakh? It's easy to find references to the renaming, but they're mixed with other stuff (e.g. a US city renaming a street to "Artsakh Avenue"), and I'm not seeing explanations for the renaming. Nagorno-Karabakh constitutional referendum, 2017 quotes an Abkhaz politician saying that Nagorno-Karabakh politicians had expressed worry that the use of the name "Artsakh" and "Nagorno-Karabakh" by Azerbaijan for its athletic teams and artistic initiatives abroad might create the wrong impression of the region's reality. Was this a reason, and if so, was it the reason? Sports and art confusion with the enemy, without other reasons, would be surprisingly small reasons for a name change, and foreign politicians (not having a stake in the matter and not being scholars of the subject) aren't the best source for such a thing anyway. Nyttend (talk) 20:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know with 100% certainty, but "nagorno" is obviously a Russian-language word, while "Karabakh" or "Karabagh" is a geographical term associated with a traditionally ethnically-mixed region, and does not invoke any glorious Armenian history... AnonMoos (talk) 02:28, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

By the way, the Soviets sometimes loved creating little ethnic anomalies, such as transferring Crimea from Russia to Ukraine, or Stalin placing a predominantly Armenian region under Azerbaijani administration (though the even smaller area of Nakhichevan was discontinuously associated with Azerbaijan) -- remember that Stalin was nationalities commissar before he attained absolute power. Some of these little anomalies have been tremendously destabilizing in the post-Soviet period... AnonMoos (talk) 02:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

This is largely because of the opinion of the Soviets to Bourgeois nationalism. The Soviet Union had a rather bipolar attitude towards its ethnic minorities. For the 1920s and 1930s, the official policy was Korenizatsiya, which led to the establishment of dozens of ethnically homogeneous states within the USSR; the idea being that each culture would better take to Socialism if each culture was given its own homeland and socialism was adopted in the culture. There was a deliberate attempt to combat "Great Russian chauvanism" and enforce the idea that communism was really meant to be a world-wide movement. However, by the late 1930s, they basically flipped the switch and started running in the other direction, adopting a formal policy of Russification among the entire Soviet Union. The break up of formerly ethnically homogeneous political unions, and the deliberate moving of both borders and people (resettling Russians in amongst other ethnicities, and visa-versa) was part of this process. The process started under Stalin, but really got going under Khrushchev and later Brezhnev, who believed in crafting a new "Soviet" ethnic identity (read "Russian for everyone"). And thus, we have the mess we have today. When they committed these policies, the Soviet leadership didn't force the fall of the Soviet Union and the break up into independent nations; they were deliberately trying to build a cohesive national identity for their country. It was a long-range, multi-generation plan that had a very long play. Unfortunately, it barely lasted another generation... --Jayron32 21:28, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

• They are returning to their roots and beginning a new life at the same time.

Karabakh is a Turkic word. Artsakh, in turn, is Armenian and much older. Also, the name Nagorno-Karabakh suggests that it is only part of a greater Karabakh. Azerbaijani can use the word Karabakh, but they certainly will not use the word Artsakh, so no association with Azerbaijan ever. Шурбур (talk) 07:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

November 7

Regarding the photographer for File:Brown lady.jpg

Does anyone here know of way of finding out more about the photographer? The aim is to figure out when this clearly notable image can be more widely used.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:04, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

From the information about the photo, we know that the photographer is male, British, active in the 1930's, and of some means (to be able to afford the camera), The photographer is named. However feeding that name into search engines produced plenty of results about the photo, but few about the photographer.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:10, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand the reference to being able to afford the camera. The photo was taken in the 1930s, not the 1870s - $2 Brownie cameras would have been ubiquitous by then, unless I'm misunderstanding something from your reference. Matt Deres (talk) 15:43, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Did the OP even read the article Brown Lady of Raynham Hall? It literally says the name of the photographer. Multiple times, and explains how he took the picture. There's a whole section on it. --Jayron32 16:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I did, I am trying to find biographical information on the photographer using the name quoted there. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:58, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. --Jayron32 19:00, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

What I am trying to find out is if the photographer was still alive, with a view to getting the photo re-licensed. Long shot but then in phenomenon related matter stranger things have occurred. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I can't find ANY information on Hubert Provand except that he took that one photograph. The earliest mention of him I can find is a 1937 article in Life Magazine which is not substantially different than what's in the Wikipedia article. I've basically got bubkis. There's very little likelyhood he's alive. Even if he were in his early 20s in 1937, he'd be over 100 years old today. --Jayron32 19:07, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

The article you linked gave another name and that led to http://www.xenophon.org.uk/indreshira.html which states that Provand was a pusedonym, and that they died in 1961. So that demolishes the possibility of getting it re-licensed. The article however also presents an alternate theory about the image. I'll leave a talk page note, in cases anyone want to summarise the theory into the article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:28, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

A fake. Imagine that. :)←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:48, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Indigenous Russian Literature

I'm looking for resources on Samoyedic, Chukchi, Ket and Even literature. déhanchements (talk) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Some preliminary searching brings up Yuri Rytkheu, the "father of Chukchi literature". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

• Even [22]

Chukchi [23] Шурбур (talk) 07:44, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

November 8

Verify that three states ban "consent searches"

Hello, I'm trying to verify the following:

• New Jersey Supreme Court in 2002 banned consent searches
• Minnesota Supreme Court also banned consent searches in 2003
• Rhode Island banned consent searches in 2004 when re-enacting it's data collection law

My original source was: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/asset_upload_file125_28283.doc

I'm a bit confused now, because there was some type of reversal in 2015 in NJ dealing with "warrantless searches."

If you can point me in the right direction to get a definitive, up to date, reference, that would be great!

Is for: Consent search (see Talk page)

Thanks! Seahawk01 (talk) 02:56, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your attempt to improve the article. According to the ACLU document you linked to, the New Jersey case was State v. Carty (in 2002, as you mention). Googling "state v carty new jersey" will bring up plenty of results, but an article analyzing the case can be found here. Note that the court heard that police may still request to perform a consent search in a case of "reasonable and articulable suspicion" that a crime has been committed. There is no need to find probable cause.

A 2016 New Jersey Supreme Court decision looking at New Jersey consent searches (including applying the aforementioned Carty test) would be State v. Hagans.

A somewhat dated, but still relevant analysis of consent searches in New Jersey can be found here Eliyohub (talk) 16:59, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

1840s Mexican Population question.

(For an alternate history with a different border after the Mexican-American war) I'm looking for information on the population of Mexico in the 1840s. Specifically, excluding the Republic of Texas, what percentage of the population of Mexico was in lands transferred to the United States by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and what percentage of the population of Mexico was in the lands north of the current southern tip of Texas. I know that this second splits Nuevo Leon, but since Monterrey is south of that line, I would expect that not much of Nuevo Leon (or much of Tamaulipas) would be included. I'm also assuming that all of Baja would be grabbed by US if this line was set.Naraht (talk) 20:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Just considering the first part: The population of Mexico in 1865 was 8.2 million, and in 1803 it was 6.8 million. The populations of California and New Mexico in 1840 was roughly 180k. So based on this, one can reasonably assume that, in 1840, the non-Texian population transfer was no larger than 2%. --Golbez (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

As I replied to a different question a few weeks ago, "there were only three main areas of compactly-settled significant Spanish-speaking populations in the whole area of Texas and the Mexican Cession: San Antonio and its surroundings, the lower Rio Grande valley, and northern New Mexico. (Other areas tended to be rather low-density, despite the inhabitants often leading what are now considered to be picturesque ranching or ex-mission lifestyles: 'By 1846, Alta California had a Spanish-speaking population of under 10,000'.)"

One prominent population a little South of the 1848 border was the Yaqui indians of the Sonoran desert, who maintained a kind of semi-autonomous status until such was later curtailed by the central Mexican government's brutal suppression of a number of revolts... AnonMoos (talk) 02:20, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

The problem with these studies is that they ignore native populations. Mexico, in its censuses (for whatever they were) were largely concerned with their own subjects, and thus treated non-Mexicans (read: native people) as non-persons and ignored them. The fact that the counts quoted above specify "Spanish-speaking population" belies the fact that there were many more people living in these lands that were ignored as not-worth-counting. There were many times the number of native peoples, such as the Paiute, Ute, Mono, and many many dozens of other people groups. Consider the Yokut people: Estimates indicate that this one group had 18,000 people living in a small part of Alta California in 1770. Just from those numbers, it's clear the number of actual humans living in those lands was many many times larger than the "10,000 Spanish-speakers" noted above. I have no basis for guessing at an actual number, but I would not be shocked if the number of people living on the lands delineated above numbered in the 6-digit range easily. Just because those people were ignored by Mexico and the U.S. doesn't make them not have existed. --Jayron32 03:05, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Certainly, but the non-Spanish-speaking Indians probably mostly had little loyalty to Mexico, and could not really be called "Mexicans" in any meaningful sense (with some individual exceptions, of course), so they're not so directly relevant to the issue of United States vs. Mexican control of the area... AnonMoos (talk) 09:04, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd counter that, however. Some government is going to have to contend with them and/or their descendants. They exist and at some point the government in question is going to have to provide them with services like roads and schools and police and the like. They exist and need to be accounted for for all the same reasons that governments account for everyone else in a census. More to the point; just because they made the mistake of considering those people non-persons, doesn't mean we are forced to make the same mistake. Doing so has consequences. --Jayron32 13:53, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I wish you wouldn't throw around rhetoric loosely. They were not counted because they were not part of the political community for most purposes, which is different from saying that they were "non-persons". Probably in some circumstances some individuals did regard them as effectively "non-persons", but this does NOT follow directly or simply from their not being counted in a census. And in most cases the Mexican government wasn't going to build roads or schools for them -- in fact, it broke up the missions, which disrupted what little schooling had been going on under Spain. AnonMoos (talk) 16:00, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

November 9

Recent United States presidential approval rating

Regarding United States presidential approval rating#Graphs:

The last two presidents show a pretty flat line. Why? Are there sources indicating that this is related to this echo chamber social media information thing? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Trump's is remarkably stable (unlike the subject himself). All I think that shows is that he has a solid core of supporters who don't care what blunders he commits and how many lies he spouts. Abraham Lincoln was right: You really can fool some of the people all of the time. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:36, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

He got 46 percent of the popular vote in 2016, and his approval has tended to hover around that mark (or lower). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

"He got 46 percent of the popular vote" Against 48% of the popular vote for Hillary Clinton. Barack Obama had received 51% of the popular vote in 2012, and Mitt Romney 47%. Trump is less popular than other major presidential candidates of the 2010s.

At least Trump performed better than John McCain, who received 45.7% of the popular vote in 2008. Dimadick (talk) 09:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, with Donald and Hillary, the majority of Americans didn't want either one of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:35, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

The crowds decisions in politics doesn't satisfy even slightly the first 3 conditions for a wise crowd in The Wisdom of Crowds, the only thing it does have is a way of aggregating their opinions. Politics is mob rule. Dmcq (talk) 10:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Or, in this case, not a lone mob, but 50 of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:10, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks all. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Worst mass shooting in US history?

Is it correct to say that the Wounded Knee Massacre is the worst mass shooting in U.S. history? Most of the lists I've seen only focus on "modern" US history. For example, this list by CNN[24] omits everything before 1949. I'm interested in all of US history, not just recent events. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:18, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

This is one of those "how do you define your terms" issues. You can make cases either way, depending on how you define such fuzzy terms as "worst" and "mass" and "modern" and so on. There are perspectives in which the Wounded Knee incident was a military engagement, and as such, are usually excluded from the normal definition of "mass shooting" which usually means some private citizen going on an singular rampage. I'm not saying that definition is the only one a person could use, merely that you could make an argument either way. --Jayron32 04:24, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Very loosely some of the Civil War battles was probably more people being shot than Wounded Knee. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:38, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd agree with Jayron on this: "mass shooting" is generally an individual or a small group (e.g. Columbine High School massacre, with two shooters) going around shooting people at random or shooting a significant number of specific people who have been pre-selected as targets. My Lai, Wounded Knee, Gnadenhutten, and other situations performed by larger bodies of individuals (none of whom was individually responsible for an exceptional number of deaths) generally don't get considered. [Gnadenhutten obviously wasn't a shooting, but if it were, I'd argue against considering it a "mass shooting" for this reason.) Nyttend (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Death penalty for killing a cat in medieval England.

I once been told that in pre-christian England there was such penalty, with the reasoning that a single cat, throughout its life, eats such quantity of mice, that throughout their lives would have eat such quantity of wheat that would supply a person's entire life. Thus - killing a cat = killing a person.

However, I found no source for this (very nice) story. Does anyone can shed light on this?

אילן שמעוני (talk) 13:47, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Untrue. But, are you sure the story isn't actually about Ancient Egypt? Where cat worship might have had the same response. ——SerialNumber54129 13:52, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Your title says "medieval", but your question asks for "pre-Christian". Cats in later medieval Europe were not held in high regard - see cat-burning for just a taste. I'm having trouble finding anything on the earlier pre-Christian situation with cats. It would likely be involved with Anglo-Saxon paganism to some extent, but our article says nothing of cats in that context. There is a huge amount of completely bogus information on the net regarding paganism, as many latter-day charlatans and nutjobs like to dress up their fanciful beliefs with words like "druid" and "pagan", so beware of anything you read online on this topic (i.e. double-check the source). Matt Deres (talk) 15:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Ilan Shimoni -- you can look at the tale of Dick Whittington and his Cat for some quasi-medieval English emphasis on cats, but I doubt the death-penalty thing... AnonMoos (talk) 16:04, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

The nearest approach to this that I can think of in early British history is a clause from the Blegywryd Redaction of the Laws of Hywel Dda, a 10th-century king of Deheubarth, laying down a fine for felicide:

The value of a cat which guards the king's barn, if killed or stolen: her head is set down on a clean level floor, and her tail is raised up, and wheat grains are poured over her until they hide the end of her tail. That will be her value.

Given the mention of the king's barn I suppose that represents the amount of wheat she would have saved the king. However Hywel Dda was Welsh, not English, and definitely not pre-Christian. --Antiquary (talk) 18:10, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

It's mentioned in History of cats: Laws of Hywel Dda. Killing a cat entailed a fine, which was higher if the cat had guarded the king's barn. See s:The_Laws_of_Howel_the_Good/Translation#cite_ref-325. --212.186.133.83 (talk) 08:01, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, no legal texts survive from the pagan Anglo-Saxon kings, so the answer must be "nobody knows". Strictly speaking, they were post-Christian as well as pre-Christian. When Saint Augustine of Canterbury arrived to convert the pagans of Kent, the first thing he did was drop into the local church which had been recently renovated. Alansplodge (talk) 13:07, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

JSTOR help please - Kenneth O. Morgan: My Histories

Could somebody please access the "Appendix - Main publications by Kenneth O. Morgan" in his autobiography Kenneth O. Morgan: My Histories for me? I need it to check the list on our article Kenneth O. Morgan, and to clarify a bibliographical tangle on another website, and to update my personal list of books needed, thank you. The book is on JSTOR at https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt17w8h53 DuncanHill (talk) 14:51, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

The fine folks at WP:RX can help you with such requests. Matt Deres (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

borrow against future income stream?

If someone[25] currently has no income but is scheduled to start a high-paying out-of-town job in 3 months (it's guaranteed, can't really fall through), is there any serious difficulty in getting a bank loan for the equivalent of a few months salary to get settled into the new location? I'm finding the linked story a little bit surprising. Also, if someone is running for office I thought they were allowed to draw a salary from their campaign while they ran? Thanks. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 20:21, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

That would depend on banking regulations and a given bank's policies about lending. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:56, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I doubt there are regulations preventing it, so it's mostly a question of how banks (or maybe credit card issuers) are likely to react to such a request in practical terms. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 00:25, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

You could try calling your local bank and posing the question. But don't be surprised if they also say that they would need more specific information before deciding yes or no. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

As far as regulations are concerned, this isn't necessarily impossible. LeBron James#Basketball: Also during his senior year, James was the centerpiece of several controversies. For his 18th birthday, he skirted state amateur bylaws by accepting a Hummer H2 from his mother, who had secured a loan for the vehicle by utilizing LeBron's future earning power as an NBA superstar. (Obviously the loan to James' mother was somewhat riskier than a loan to this congressman-elect, since it would be much easier for James to suffer a freak injury preventing him from playing in the NBA than for her to suffer an event capable of preventing her from assuming office.) So unless banking regulations have changed markedly since 2002, the answer would depend entirely on the policies of the bank with which she consults. Nyttend (talk) 02:20, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Not even if you could prove your glorious future 101%, cause in the worst case - your get your loan, spend it all and a week befor you start your rise to glory, you die in an accident and leave nothing of worth - that is a guaranteed 100% loss for the bank. There for Banks also always want additional security/pawn like your house, car, boat, pension contract. If you dont have that: ..very sorry blah, blah unfortunately blah, blah... --Kharon (talk) 02:39, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Kharon, the lenders have actuaries who estimate the probability of something like that so they can price it into the loan. That part is completely routine. It's the reason credit card interest is higher than mortage interest. It's unsecured debt so you have to pay more for it. Question is whether she'd have serious probs getting a credit line large enough to cover first/last/moving/living expenses for a few months in this situation. Nyttend, the issue with Lebron James seems to have been with amateur athletic rules, not banking ones. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 04:10, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not what I was going for. My point is that in 2002, it was legal for a bank to lend enough money to buy a Hummer (more than would be necessary to rent a Capitol Hill apartment for a few months) with no security beyond a high schooler's potential earnings as an NBA star. The story was widely publicised; the bank likely wouldn't have gone through with such a transaction had it been illegal (because of the chance of publicity, if nothing else), and had it gotten in trouble with regulators, this would have been reported too. Nyttend (talk) 05:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Come to think of it, some types of student loans might fit the premise. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:24, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

There's an established niche market for "inheritance lending" (see https://www.wikihow.com/Get-an-Advance-on-Your-Inheritance etc.) though there doesn't seem to be much about it on Wikipedia. This appears to be similar... AnonMoos (talk) 09:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

By the way, a convenience link to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is in order. Nyttend (talk) 14:11, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. Nyttend, aha, I see your point about Lebron James. Good observation. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 00:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Trade Between Ancient Egypt and the Shang Dynasty

Did it exist and what was the route used. déhanchements (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Sea route from the Red Sea to Hormuz, Seleucid Empire and later Parthia, then Calicut, India and then Quanzhou, China.
Sleigh (talk) 00:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

The Seleucid empire came into existence about 300 B.C., while the Shang Dynasty fell about 1000 B.C., so there's a 700-year gap. The trick of sailing across the Indian Ocean directly from southwest Arabia to India wasn't yet known in 1000 B.C... AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Makut_Makaveli -- the Shang Dynasty was before 1000 B.C., while what William H. McNeill calls "the closure of the Eurasian ecumene" was more like 500 B.C. What that means is that most long distance inter-civilizational trade in 1000 B.C. was of small portable artistic objects, or limited quantities of precious materials, which were filtered through a long series of middlemen (on land, typically traded from tribe to neighboring tribe in a lengthy chain, while sea trade tended to proceed by short coast-hugging hops). AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Copying an answer I previously posted on the OP's talk page because of the page throttling:

Per this article, there was no direct trade or contact between the two, but given the existence of trading networks which included the so-called Silk Road, it would not be surprising if some goods or items were passed from trader to trader (etc.) in either direction between the two. Note the passage in that article:

"Some remnants of what was probably Chinese silk dating from 1070 BCE have been found in Ancient Egypt."

Since the Shang dynasty spanned ca. 1600–1046 BCE, this is an actual example of Shang dynasty material finding its way to Ancient Egypt. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

If you look at the Silk Road article, you'll see that it wasn't really developed as a regular semi-reliable trade route until the late centuries B.C., so again, there's a gap with respect to 1000 B.C... AnonMoos (talk) 00:47, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

November 10

The Lament for Icarus and Ethel Warwick

The Lament for Icarus by Herbert James Draper

Was the model Ethel Warwick, used by Draper in The Lament for Icarus, the actress Ethel Warwick for whom we have an article? She would have been about 16 at the time it was painted, which would be about right. If she was, do we know which of the figures she is? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:26, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

According to The British Art Journal article "Ethel Warwick (1882-1951), artist's model and actress: The life and career of a real-life Trilby", (The British Art Journal Vol. 3, No. 1 (Autumn 2001), pp. 51-55) she was also an artists model, and did pose for another of Drapers paintings. Oh here we go..she is described as being depicted as a "forlorn sea nymph" for that particular painting. Curdle (talk) 06:42, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Any idea what "a real-life Trilby" is? Okay, I'll answer that myself: see Trilby (novel): "Trilby O'Ferrall, the novel's heroine, is a half-Irish girl working in Paris as an artists' model and laundress; all the men in the novel are in love with her". Alansplodge (talk) 09:34, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Curdle and Alansplodge (I did know Trilby, but I'm sure many others didn't). I found our Spanish article w:es:Ethel Warwick has considerably more about her career as a model than our own English article, and Commons has lots of pictures from her modelling days. commons:category:Ethel Warwick. DuncanHill (talk) 09:52, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

To address one of your questions (for the benefit of other readers) which you haven't explicitly answered, Duncan, do you concur that Ethel Warwick is depicted as the (young-looking) red-haired nymph at the bottom of the picture, rather than either of the two (more mature) blonde nymphs further up? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 16:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

November 11

More Native Americans questions.

Do we know if when 2 Native American tribes are allies or enemies, on if they speak the same broad language or different? I feel like if they can't speak the same language, it's tough for them to be allies. Do we know if some Native American tribes, say by 1600s, were a merge of 2 or more tribes, like a smaller tribe merged into a larger tribe (assuming they speak the same language.). From Canada to South America. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC).

The Huron were Iroquoian and spoke an Iroquoian language, but they were the enemy of the Haudenosaunee (a confederation of several other Iroquois nations). So even if they do speak a related language they are not necessarily allies. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand the premise. The first peoples of the Americas were normal people with normal desires and hangups and they built groups with changing priorities and alliances and rivalries just like any others in the world. The UK has fought both with and against the USA and with and against France - language has little to do with it. Interpreters have always existed; people figure things out if there is a will to do so. Matt Deres (talk) 15:08, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

67.175.224.138 -- the pre-1492 distribution of the Algonquian languages was broad enough to contain any number of antagonistic relationships within it. By the way, in certain areas of inland South America "Almost every individual knows fluently three, four, or more languages"[26]... -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Buddhist Monk

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen

I have read many years ago about a Buddhist monk who excessively self-tortured himself and apparently went so far that he even hanged at least a part of his (while he was still alive!) innards on a tree "to let them dry". This shocked most of the eyewitnesses of the time. I do not recall the name of the man, does someone of you know the monk`s name?

Thank you for your answers--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:8CC0:8297:EFBC:CD56 (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

A quick search only brought up the practice of Kaihōgyō by Japanese Tendai monks, which entails a thousand day hike around Mount Hiei. Not mentioned in our article but quoted by several sources is that those who drop-out "must commit suicide by hanging or disembowelment". [27] Alansplodge (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Buddha/Zarathustra Works

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen

I am looking for a full online version of the Zend-Avesta, the holy book of Zarathustra and the original words (or the clostest possible) of Buddha. I speak some German and Spanish, so online versions in these languages would not be difficult for me to read. I have searched with the help of Google, but was unable to find a satisfying result.

Thank you very much for your answers--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:8CC0:8297:EFBC:CD56 (talk) 14:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Some parts of the Sutta Pitaka of the Pali Canon presumably fairly closely reflect the thinking of the Buddha and his personal disciples. AnonMoos (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Here's one [28]. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

And another [29]. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)