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“By mid-1942, victims were being deported from the ghettos in sealed freight trains to extermination camps where, if they survived the journey, they were killed in gas chambers. The killing continued until the end of World War II in Europe in May 1945.”
To be more factual, shouldn’t the sentence read: “...if they survived the journey, those the Nazi camp authorities deemed physically fit to work were made slave laborers under brutal conditions with little chance of ultimate survival, and those who were not deemed fit to work were summarily killed in gas chambers.”
I don’t think this point is at all disputed or contentious The camp selection processes are well known. My point is that as written the passage is simply historically inaccurate. However, because of the extremely sensitive nature of this subject, I don’t want to make any substantive change without first clearing it with the consensus of other editors. Thank you.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The key point is "extermination camps". The percentage of Jews selected for work in the extermination camps is so minuscule as to be insignificant - which makes the statement perfectly fine for an introduction. The sentence refers to the Operation Reinhard camps - Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec (and Chelmo too) - not the camps that used slave labor such as Auschwitz or Majdanek. Ealdgyth - Talk17:42, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I’m uncertain about the other camps you refer to, but Sobibor was an extermination camp and part of Operation Reinhard and did use people as slave laborers, though most were gassed upon arrival. There was the well known revolt/escape from it involving six hundred people in the effort. its Wiki article confirms such.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
600 people compared to the hundreds of thousands that were taken to the camp - Treblinka killed around 900,000, but the laborers in the camp never numbered over 2000 at any one time (and that's being generous - it's likely that usual laborers were under a 1000). Same for Belzec - very small percentage of people arriving were selected for labor. Treblinka usually had transports of 6000 or so... there might be 10 or 20 transportees selected for labor, or there might be less or more. But never anything approaching the percentages selected for labor at Auschwitz. It's a lead and it should not be bogged down with details ... especially when it clearly states "extermination camps" instead of "concentration camps". Ealdgyth - Talk18:09, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, thank you. I never knew that Auschwitz was not considered an extermination camp notwithstanding its infamous gas chambers and crematoria, but, apparently, a concentration camp. Anyway, I probably couldn’t make this change even if I were so inclined due to the article's protection status. It’s a moot point as I also said I would never think of it without a consensus. Perhaps others, if not you, might accept my suggested rewrite if: “—the vast majority—“ were inserted after: “...and those not deemed fit to work…” Best regards.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. That's all the more reason, in my opinion, to make the change I suggest as editor Ealdgyth notes that the relevant passage refers to extermination camps which, as you just pointed out, Auschwitz was in part.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Auschwitz-Birkenau was the biggest extermination camp with the highest kill rate as well as being the biggest concentration camp.
IT's speculation. The 960 000 (Auschwitz) includes non-Jews, so it's very dificult to estimate if Auschwitz was worse than Treblinka if we count only Jeiwsh victims.Xx236 (talk) 10:55, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Linguistic fallacy in the Death Toll section
"Of Poland's 3.3 million Jews, about 90 percent were killed.[369] Many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported.[403]"
Since 90 percent is the first reference to the number of Jews killed in Poland, it makes no sense to continue with "many more", since it doesn't contrast against anything. That many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported than the total number of polish Jews killed is impossible, so I guess it's leftover from an earlier edit referring to Jews killed somewhere else than the ghettos. Just dropping "more" from the sentence would make it correct, although if it referred to some other figure earlier, why isn't that still there? Shouldn't changes made to protected articles be mentioned in the talk page?
217.210.93.240 (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2019
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The International Red Cross has since proven with physical evidence that the number of deaths actually caused by Nazi Germany was around the 315,000 mark as a huge amount of the original tally of deaths included those who died of the typhus epidemic that plagued Germany during WW2, the epidemic was made worse by bombing runs on medical supply routes and towns like Dresden.
Evidence of this can be found looking at the 1938 and 1948 Red Cross sensus based on religious views, Jewish numbers increased dramatically over this period which furthermore contradicts the 6 million death totals and goes more in line with the 315,000 deaths. 49.182.47.111 (talk) 08:14, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
not done. This is typical denialist junk, as the Red Cross has never put forth any such numbers and has in fact refuted this sort of use of their name. Ealdgyth - Talk09:21, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
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