Talk:Marvin Minsky

Possible Misquote

I checked my copy of 2001: A Space Odessey, and in the quote it says 1980's in stead of 1960's. Could anyone confirm, and if necessary correct this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.197.0.162 (talk) 19:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Marvin the Robot

Was this character from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy named after Mr. Minsky? If so, an interesting reference.

-- Interesting if true, but not. See Marvin the Paranoid Android -- Paulscrawl (talk) 05:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

His Picture

The page used to contain a picture of him. Why was it removed?

Yeah, that’s interesting... And more - I refuse to understand it... I uploaded http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Marvin_Minsky.png and added to the top of the page the code but the image didn't appear! Strange... --Yuriy Lapitskiy 17:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, reuploaded it to jpg... --Yuriy Lapitskiy 18:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of the Koan

The Koan really belongs in the trivia section.

Could somebody explain what is this koan about ? It isn't very understandable for a random person. --Taw

A randomly wired neural net will still have some preconceptions of how to play the game -- you just won't know what they are. In the same sense, entering a room with closed eyes will not make the room (the preconceptions of how to play the game) go away; you just won't know how the room looks -- Ulfalizer

I have no actual knowledge. But it seems by analogy that the point is that just as closing your eyes does not make a room empty, randomly wiring a neural net does not cause it to lack preconceptions of how to play. Presumably, it has random preconceptions, but preconceptions nonetheless. There may be some deeper lesson here in that we cannot build an artificial intelligence that is "pure" in the sense of "not depending on hardware or software". --Jimbo Wales

The whole point of a koan is not that it has an answer, but that it clarifies the problem. It's not supposed to have an explanation, really. It is just supposed to get you asking the right questions. --Dmerrill

I think it may have to do with the role that our preconceptions play in our own understanding of the universe. Look around a room with your eyes open, see what is in it, then close your eyes. Is everything still there? Almost everyone would say yes, because that's what their experience has lead them to believe. But, deprived of that experience, we would not know enough to say yes.

As for the neural net part, it could simply be there for the sake of the koan or it could be that Marvin was saying that a randomly wired neural net would not only have no preconceptions about Tic-tac-toe but also no experience with logic itself, in which case it would have to be taught logic first, which would either (1) defeat the purpose of the experiment or (2) turn one problem (teaching the net to play tic-tac-toe) into two (teaching the net logic and tic-tac-toe). Of course, I know very little about neural nets and could be wrong on this part. --J. Jensen

Another possibility is that the koan is meant to draw attention to the assumptions that are inherent in the design and implementation of the network, not the wiring. --Spazzm 21:05, 2005 Feb 26 (UTC)

First neural networks?

I'm modifying the sentence about Minsky building the first neural network, since it is almost certainly not true, according to this site: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~nd/surprise_96/journal/vol1/cs11/article1.html "First Attempts: There were some initial simulations using formal logic. McCulloch and Pitts (1943) developed models of neural networks based on their understanding of neurology. These models made several assumptions about how neurons worked. Their networks were based on simple neurons which were considered to be binary devices with fixed thresholds. The results of their model were simple logic functions such as "a or b" and "a and b". Another attempt was by using computer simulations. Two groups (Farley and Clark, 1954; Rochester, Holland, Haibit and Duda, 1956)."

SNARC was the first randomly wired neural network learning machine, not the first neural network - apparently. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This seems to be wrong. Minsky built an actual neural network machine (made of vacuum tubes) in 1951. PushSingh

Also, I removed from the bibliography section the comments on neural networks and the suggestion that "Network theorists should read it again [...]" as this seems a little on the opinionated side.

Removed "Developed the modern theory of computational geometry and established fundamental limitations of loop-free connectionist learning machines." from the description of "Perceptrons".

While the book does discuss the subject of computational geometry, it does not "develop the modern theory" thereof. The 'fundamental limitations' has since been proven incorrect, see XOR problem.

XOR problem

Added a mention of Minsky and Papert's incorrect assumption on the XOR problem. --Spazzm 21:00, 2005 Feb 26 (UTC)

This is odd. Minsky and Papert were correct that Perceptrons cannot represent XOR, although of course multilayer nets can. I deleted the contribution that suggested different. --PushSingh

Minsky's book killed any hope of government funding for research into artificial neural networks. He was right about what a perceptron could not do, but wrong about what a two or more layer network of perceptrons could do - i.e. model just about any continuous function. Minksy biased his views in the book in order to acquire continued military funding for MIT for research into knowledge based systems. The article must incorporate this tragedy more formally. --Amit 06:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Preferably without the POV. Cmouse 16:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Please cite references for these assertions, so that we can document them properly. --Fjarlq 20:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The stated assertions are common knowledge, and I don't see any POV bias in them. Reviewing any lenghty archived discussion on Marvin Minksy, such as on Slashdot, (or book reviews for Perceptron) should yield pointers to several references. One reference in particular that comes to mind is the book The Brain Makers by HP Newquist. --Amit 04:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I am deeply sorry, but the "common knowledge" is plain wrong in this aspect. Please, let us have great care with this subject. One of the reasons Wikipedia is criticized is because it may borne "popular" conceptions that are not necessarily true. Let's use this tool to finally put an end to the enduring misconceptions on the history of neural networks and of Minsky's work. Plus, it's even funny, if not tragic, that someone might use slashdot as a source to solve a wikipedia dispute. This is not at all the righteous path.

The book Perceptrons suffers from the "Necronomicon syndrome". It is a book that is often mentioned, but was actually read only by few people. I do not wish to talk about why so many researchers continue to spread the misconceptions regarding this book, but the fact is that one learn the tale from the other, cites them, and the myth goes on, when all we have to do is simply read the original book. The book should stand by itself as a reference. There is no need at all to quote any other books as a source of explanation of a book that can be read directly by anyone. And it's not even an old, strange of inaccessible book. It is relatively new, and had an edition published in the early 1980s, with a new preface where Minsky seems confused about the strange things people started to say about it.

The XOR problem regards only what a single neuron can do, and doesn't tell us much about Perceptron networks. It tell us as much as the fact that a single AND or OR gate can't also implement the XOR function by themselves, while both are routinely used in standard electronic circuits. The fact that networks of Perceptrons are needed to perform minimally interesting computation was known not only by Minsky, but much earlier by Rosenblatt, to whom the book was dedicated (if I am not much mistaken). This is a first misconception that must be cleared out. Some people talk as if the book came to destroy Rosenblatt's previous and historical research. Minsky and Papert's feeling towards him were pretty much the opposite, they talk wonders of his work.

The fact that networks of neurons are able to implement any kind of boolean function was known by McCulloch and Pitts themselves. In fact, in the 1943 article I believe they even mention the fact that we can use these neurons with memory units and build Turing-machine-like devices. Minsky and Papert also knew that, everyone knew that. Some people say that this was only started to be proved in the 1980s... If you don't believe me regarding these books and articles, the originals, you can also take a look at the 1964 book by Michael A. Arbib, that talks about boolean functions and state machines built from Perceprons in a very explicit way. Even if anyone insist in disputing the contents of the works of Minsky, McCulloch and Rosenblatt, this Arbib book is enough to deny the claims that the (boolean) generality of neural networks was only discovered in the 1980s. One may (must) also read the exceptional book by Minsky called Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines. It is from 1967, so it is even prior to Perceptrons, and it is a book of basic computer theory, covering finite state machines and Turing machines. The important thing is that Minsky uses Perceptrons to describe the construction of the machines throughout the book!

Regarding the findings in the Perceptrons book, what it contains are never-disproved theories regarding the limits of Perceptron networks, and how the sizes needed grow with the problem complexity. It is general, and is goes much further then the XOR case. In fact, the proof for the XOR function is easy, and is not subject for a book, perhaps half a chapter... This proof is much larger, talks about feed-forward Perceptron networks in general, and states limits for the functions implemented. The best example of the kind of inherent limitation they proved that MLPs have is the drawing at the cover of the book.

That is what amazes me the most. Everybody talk about the book and about the trivial XOR-function/single-perceptron problem. But the most important and big problem is the one in the drawing of the cover. People not only have not read the book, they don't even know the cover of the book!!

I will explain the problem and the cover drawing now. But I urge you to instead go to your library and read the book, because I will spoil your experience... It is as pleasurable as watching a movie, or reading any other good book! So, "spoilers warning". Here it goes. The problem is that of identifying whether a colored area in a drawing is a single area, or two separate areas, or to determinate the connectedness of a drawing. The proof shows that a network of limited size can only solve the problem for drawings with limited sizes. This limitation exists to this day, will never be overcome, and is in fact the routine problem posed to an engineer who needs to build a MLP to solve certain problem: determine the number of neurons needed... Because the best we can do is to build a network as large as the requirements of the problem. You can't build a fixed-size network to solve any problem. (And this is ok!... It's just like selecting the order for a linear filter to do the desired job.)

Another common misconception is that people had no idea of the so-called backward propagation algorithm in the 1960s, but if you think about it, it's just a pretty standard optimization algorithm. And they did it back then!...

I would be glad to have a deeper discussion with anyone interested... I shall start to edit this article right this weekend unless anyone manifests himself. I only hope to do a job as minimally good as Push might have done. It is a great shame for wikipedia that him and Minsky himself have dedicated some of their times to this page, but to this day it still contains inaccuracies. I hope we all can do justice to wikipedia and to Minsky. -- NIC1138 (talk) 05:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Edits made by the subject of the article

Will we accept the correction of quotes by on 1 January 2006 by someone claiming to be Marvin Minsky? (This is the dilemma of anonymous editing of a wiki.) Were these quotes published contemporarily elsewhere? GUllman 22:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Considering that according to IPLocation.com, is located at "MASSACHUSETTS BROOKLINE RCN CORPORATION", and that minsky@media.mit.edu also posted to the newsgroup comp.ai.philosophy from the same IP address, I think we can incorporate these quotes as his own recollections of the incidents. GUllman 01:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes -- I talk to Marvin Minsky regularly (he was my thesis advisor) and those comments are certainly his. (I had recently suggested he make some fixes to his Wikipedia entry.) Pushsingh 01:56, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

While I blanch from my own temerity, I'd still like to ask you, Pushsingh, to contact Minsky and ask him to register onwiki and comment on talk. We must rewrite his edits, merging them into the article yet, perhaps, continuing to cite them as direct quotes. It's all a mess and I'd like the warmth and comfort of User:Marvin Minsky hovering nearby. John Reid 02:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Sadly, Push passed away a few weeks ago. I will try to answer your comments as soon as I can - however I don't seem Marvin nearly as often. Cmouse 04:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can email Minsky. You don't need a .mit.edu domain to get him to answer. Personally, I think no one should be above wikipedia convention, though anyone can help create conventions. --Jaibe 08:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Technically, we can't accept previously unpublished accounts or explanations, even if we have ironclad proof that it's Minsky adding them personally. It needs to have appeared in some other published s source first. Stan 23:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well we can treat his edits as pointers to parts of the edit that may be false (or that he wants expunged from the article for vanity reasons, perhaps). I took the liberty of removing the Jurassic Park edit because of this - since having a conversation on a beach about something that didn't appear in the film is perhaps too trivial an occurrence --82.35.240.214 21:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

I added the cleanup tag. The biography section needs to be structured better, it just kind of goes from one topic to another without any natural progression. Some of it could probably be moved to the trivia section; maybe the parts about his contributions to Jurassic Park and 2001 could be moved to their own section. Also, as discussed above the edits on the page which appear to be from Minsky himself seem to be legit... these are very informative comments and need to be integrated into the article.

Letslip 01:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

marvin monroe

is the simpsons psychologist based on him? Family Guy Guy 05:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Year of confocal microscopy patent added

The page on Confocal microscopy has the year of 1957 as the year of Minsky's confocal patent. I believe that date to be 1961 for 3 reasons, but boy it would be nice if Dr. Minsky read this and ensured I was correct. So I added the year here to be consistent with his another patent having the year attached to it. Now the three reasons are 1) I could find no support for 1957 in the Confocal microscopy article. 2) I found support for the 1961 date in an article by Dr. Jeffrey Lichtman (et alia?) in an August 1994 Scientific American article entitled, "Confocal Microscopy." 3) Based on the Lichtman article, I searched the patent records, and while very limited data for old patents is available, a search for the last name of Minsky reveals no patents at all in 1957 but one patent in 1961. December 19th specifically. 3,013,467; US Classification 356/432. A further search shows:

US Class 432 FOR LIGHT TRANSMISSION OR ABSORPTION:

This subclass is indented under the class definition. Subject matter wherein visible radiation is passed directly or with internal reflection through solid, liquid, or gaseous substances or any mixture thereof including coated solids, and detected visually or photoelectrically after it has passed through the substance for the purpose of determining the intensity, the change of intensity, the extinction of the radiation, or the outline of the radiation source or image.

(1) Note. As between this Class 356 and Class 250, the claimed combination of a light source, a support for a substance to be tested by a transmission test, and a photosensitive detector with or without indicating structure is classified in this Class 356 providing there is the disclosure of an indicator responsive to the detector not provided for elsewhere. If an indicator of the quantitative type such as a meter is present in the claimed combination, classification is in Class 356 regardless of the claiming of the support.

(2) Note. The patents claiming a light source with the transmission of this light through a substance and detected (usually quantitatively) are in subclasses 432+. If no light source is claimed and only the light intensity of a specific location or locations is involved and not the amount of light attenuated in the passage of the light through a medium or a substance, or only the intensity or a light source is desired without regard to the attenuation of the light in its passage through a medium, see subclasses 213+ on photometry.

Based on the above, I am very confident the date is 1961, not 1957. Hence I added it here, and will correct it in Confocal microscopy. --SafeLibraries 03:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

With regards to the above, 1961 was the date that the US patent #3,013,467 was issued, however it was filed in 1957 and hence its term started from that year. --Colin E. 09:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Great to see others involved. In this case, I will change the date back to 1961. Patent terms nowadays (since June 8, 1995) run from the date of issue but last 20 years from the date of filing. However, for this older patent, patent terms run from the date of issue for 17 years. In either case, patent terms run from the date of issue, not the date of filing. And in our case, that would be 1961. To prove this to you, look here http://bpmlegal.com/howtoterm.html. Note also "In any event, the 20 year term laws take effect June 8 (barring any change in legislation between now and then). The patent term will begin on the issue date and end 20 years from the date of filing." Thanks again for your input. --SafeLibraries 11:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I put an excerpt of the SciAm Lichtman article on the Confocal microspopy Talk page. By the way, if Dr. Minsky is reading this, may I have your autograph with a short message to children of the future? --SafeLibraries 03:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

"old man minsky"

I have no first-hand knowledge, but I found several non-wikipedia references to him as such, most notably this 2006 Discover interview. Tvoz | talk 07:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

http://donbot.com/DesignBot/Bibliography/Bib02MinskyDiscoverInterview.html

Personal communication

Please don't add information or remove challenge tags based on uncited "personal communication". Such edits will be reverted on sight. Superm401 - Talk 07:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry about that one, but where can I find a list of what information needs for sure to have a reference? For example, do the names and dates of birth of people need to be referenced? Why does religion? If this is so important to be verified it should perhaps remain blank instead of "pending". I imagine this is debated somewhere already, can someone point me a link? -- NIC1138 (talk) 07:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Participation in the Victim of the Brain film

Does anybody have reliable sources on this? I've heard people say that it might be true, and there is indeed a character that is introduced as Marvin Minsky in a fictional part the film (here at 1:45). But Marvin Minksy is not in the official credits, which is hard to explain. The character that is supposed to be him seems to have an English accent. Julien.dutant (talk) 14:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Good reference to mine for more details

In Honor of Marvin Minsky’s Contributions on his 80th Birthday,AI Magazine Vol 28, No 4: Winter 2007. Model summary sections on Minsky’s Research and Contributions and Minsky's Personal History, in addition to anecdotes from John McCarthy, and several former students, including Danny Hillis, Patrick Winston, et al. Now free access: added as a named reference for easy re-use. --Paulscrawl (talk) 05:11, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment on Eastern Thinkers?

Did Minsky make some controversial comment recently about how the orient has failed to produce cognitive scientists? I've heard of it, but I think I'm missing something. --Christofurio (talk) 13:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Death & cryopreservation

"It is not known whether he has been cryopreserved" - bull-fucking-shit! The Alcor statement basically spells it out for you as well as in any way possible given the limitation that they can't confirm or deny it directly. Maybe the article should at least mention that it is "likely" he has been cryopreserved, given that he was handed the bracelet by Drexler (as the Alcor statement confirms). -88.71.115.157

I'm the one put that text in. Your interpretation of the bizarre Alcor statement is *probably* correct (though if so, IMHO the statement does an extremely poor job of maintaining Minsky's presumed confidentiality request); IMHO your interpretation does seem more likely than the alternative explanation that they deliberately want to maintain a false rumor that he was frozen, either to create buzz or to avoid further media questions if there was kind of negative incident. That said, even if he did have confidential arrangements to be cryopreserved, we don't know whether he actually *was* cryopreserved; for example, the family might have intervened to prevent cryopreservation. Personally if there's no objections from anyone else, I'm fine with something like "Following his death, Alcor issued an unusual statement stating it could neither confirm nor deny whether Minsky had arrangements for cryonic suspension." and citing the Alcor statement. If you dig around and find verifiable proof either way, IMHO we can waive WP:WEIGHT and put it in as a routine biographic detail (manner of death); I'm not sure why it would be a priority for you to establish someone's been cryopreserved if he said he wants it to be confidential, but if you find proof I have no objection to including it in the article. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

What you propose sounds reasonable, given the sources. Reify-tech (talk) 21:57, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

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Please list Carl Hewitt as a doctoral student in Infobox

Please list Carl Hewitt as a doctoral student in the Infobox. Carl (talk) 16:18, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Done. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 02:46, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

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Better to have a picture of him in his prime?

Looks a bit old and tired; not representative of his life overall?

Some one is spamming for Minsky. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.8.120 (talk) 15:35, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Allegations of child sex abuse

The section Marvin Minsky#Child sex trafficking and abuse is problematic. It currently reads:

Child sex trafficking and abuse

In 2019, Virginia Giuffre named Minsky as one of Jeffrey Epstein's child trafficking clients in an unsealed deposition in Federal court.

This all hangs on a few words in Giuffre's deposition, which was unsealed in 2019, but made in 2016. In it, Giuffre claimed that she was "directed to have sex" with Minsky (among others). She did not allege that Minsky was a "client" of Epstein's or that she in fact had sex with Minsky. There is no corroboration of this claim from any other source. Giuffre has not pursued legal action against Minsky or the others, and has not even accused them in public. None of them have been indicted, let alone convicted, for any crime related to this.

Now, of course, it may be true that Minsky was in fact a "client" of Epstein's, and did in fact have sex with underage women procured by Epstein. Which would be horrible. But Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Regardless of how horrible the allegations are, Wikipedia only reports verifiable information, not speculation or personal conclusions.

That Giuffre made accusations is certainly verifiable, and probably belongs in the article. That they are true is not currently verifiable, and does not belong in the article. One editor has been insisting on maximalist wording. He or she has removed the word "allegation", added by several editors, multiple times. He or she insists on a section heading, "Child sex trafficking and abuse", which is not supported even by the accusation. He or she wrote an edit comment, "It's not a wiki's job to contextualize. Sorry your hero is a pedophile." which is both a personal attack on me and goes beyond what the uncorroborated deposition says. It may be true that Ghislaine Maxwell "directed [Giuffre] to have sex with Minsky", but the allegation does not go beyond that and claim that Giuffre actually approached Minsky or actually had sex with him. The same editor characterizes the word "allegation" as a weasel word, saying that it "doesn't matter".

This section needs to stick to the verifiable facts of the matter. --Macrakis (talk) 00:44, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

The only thing here problematic is how you are doing the bidding of a degenerate pedophile. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 16:02, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging on the Talk page, but I'd appreciate it if you'd avoid the personal attacks. Anyway, I can hardly "do the bidding" of someone who's been dead for three years.

What evidence do you have that Minsky is a "degenerate pedophile"? Giuffre was testifying about the behavior of Ghislaine Maxwell, and said nothing about what she did or what Minsky did. Just because someone tries to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge doesn't mean that you in fact tried to buy it, let alone that you actually handed over your money! According to a blog, Giuffre did in fact approach Minsky, and Minsky turned her down.[1] But of course a second-hand report in a blog like that isn't a reliable source. --Macrakis (talk) 17:01, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

How about the evidence of sexual abuse victims as evidence, Stavros? It's really disgusting that you're trying to muddy the waters, and pretend since there's no video evidence of Minksy doing this it's impossible to believe. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 20:05, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

The victim in question is Virginia Giuffre. She has never claimed that Minsky had sex with her, only that Ghislaine Maxwell told her to. --Macrakis (talk) 11:37, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

RfC on Giuffre/Epstein issue

Should Minsky be characterized as a "child trafficking client" of Jeffrey Epstein, in a section entitled "Child sex trafficking and abuse"? --Macrakis (talk) 12:44, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Editor ChrisRehm8814 (a WP:SPA) has created a section entitled "Child sex trafficking and abuse" [2] where he or she has been repeatedly re-inserting [3] [4] IP edit, possibly the same person [5] the unsubstantiated claim that Minsky was named as one of Epstein's "child trafficking clients". He or she has also removed the qualifier "alleged" or the clarification that the accusation was uncorroborated from the article multiple times. [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] Several editors have pointed out that Giuffre only testified that she was "directed to have sex" with Minsky in both edit comments [14] [15] and on this Talk page. ChrisRehm has made multiple personal attacks on those who disagree with him, again, both in edit comments [16], on this Talk page,[17] and on his Talk page.[18] He or she has not responded to substantive discussion (see Talk above). He or she has been informed of Wikipedia policies on his or her Talk page.[19] Although this account has only ever edited the Marvin Minsky page, the editor apparently knows WP procedures well enough to try to intimidate another editor with a uw-vandalism2 warning [20].

My last edit, [21], presents what I believe to be an accurate and properly contextualized summary of the Minsky-Epstein connection. --Macrakis (talk) 13:07, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment When the underage girl was directed to have sex with Minsky, it probably indicates he was a client since Epstein was in the trafficking business. She was also constantly being forced to perform such service with other clients. However, calling Minsky a client could be problematic for two reasons. First, there was no evidence that he paid for or solicited the service. Epstein was known for befriending scientists and academics and Giuffre's service could have been offered as a favor (although, I don't know if this already made him a client). He might have even played another role in this affair (e.g. an associate). Also, the reports I was able to read only cited one accuser so far. By the way, this article in RollingStone reported that another witness claimed she took the trip with Giuffre and Minsky during the incident. Darwin Naz (talk) 23:28, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Whether or not it was a 'freebie' doesn't change the fact that he had sex with an underage sex slave. Prostitutes are fungible and accepting one establishes a quid pro quo relationship. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 03:52, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Giuffre never said that she had sex with Minsky. She said that Maxwell "directed her" to have sex with him. Concluding from this that Minsky was "probably a client" is pure speculation. It appears that Epstein was in the blackmail business,[22] so tempting his guests could well have been part of the operation. Presumably some guests succumbed, and others didn't. We have no evidence that Minsky actually did anything at all with Giuffre. --Macrakis (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes she did. Stop being intentionally dense to protect your friend from MIT. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 12:49, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Please show us the evidence that she had sex with Minsky. The only evidence I've seen is the deposition in the Maxwell case, which does not say that she had sex with Minsky. And please stop the personal attacks. --Macrakis (talk) 15:08, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

• My understanding is that Wikipedia is about "verifiability". We can verify that Guiffre approached Minsky.
  But where is the verifiability of what happened next? :And even IF he did have sex with her that he did it knowing that she was a prostitute? [User:SimetraartemiS|SimetraartemiS]] (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

She did not have agency in this as she was a minor and was regarded as chattel by both Mr. Epstein and Mr. Minsky. Regardless of whether or not there's a sex tape to "prove" what happened, by her testimony alone Minsky was a child sex trafficker as defined by USC 18 §1591 et seq. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 14:53, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Under what section of USC 18 §1591 do you believe that Minsky was a child sex trafficker? If an underage prostitute approaches me on the street and I turn her down, I am not a "sex trafficker". --Macrakis (talk) 15:08, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

USC 18 §1591 (b1) and (b2) make is clear that someone who "patronizes, or solicits by any means" is a trafficker. Giving Mr. Minsky the benefit of the doubt that he turned her down, which is a highly dubious fact stream (why would she have recall of someone like Mr. Minsky, who isn't well known outside of his field, if she had no sexual encounter with the man?), not reporting this activity to the authorities makes him an accessory after the fact in the commission of human trafficking. Also, people hire prostitutes to perform non-sexual acts. The mere relationship between the two constitutes patronization. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 18:50, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer (and I will guess that you aren't either), but "patronize" presumably means to engage the person for services, not just to encounter casually. Otherwise, as in my example above, if a prostitute were to approach me on the street or at a party and offer her services, and I turned her down, I would still be guilty of "patronizing" her, which is ridiculous.

Prof. Minsky was not only very well known in his field, but was in St. Thomas at Epstein's place running a conference that Epstein financed (a fact which for some reason you deleted, even though it smells bad -- at least in retrospect). The testimony was about Maxwell directing her to approach Minsky. To use your language, "it is a highly dubious fact stream" that she wouldn't mention that she had sex with Minsky if in fact she had.

Not reporting the situation is problematic if he realized what was going on -- the key word in the statute is "knowingly". Assuming that Giuffre actually approached him (which is not what she said, but was reported by a third party, who also said that she turned him down), how was he to know that she was underage, and that she was being coerced? I would guess that famous people like Minsky get approached by fans (some underage) fairly often. Remember, this was in 2002, before Epstein's behavior pattern was widely known.

If it turns out that Minsky was taking money for conferences etc. from Epstein after it became clear what Epstein was up to -- the way the Media Lab under Ito was -- that's a different matter. So far, we haven't seen any evidence of that, but of course I keep an open mind.

But until now, all I see in the Giuffre-Minsky testimony is that it was Maxwell that was a bad actor. I would guess that Epstein's strategy of putting rich or famous men in compromising positions succeeded some of the time, and we will, I hope, eventually find out who they were. But so far, we don't know, and we certainly don't know that Minsky was among them. --Macrakis (talk) 19:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes we do know. Her testimony says so. Stop muddying the waters.

• Q (BY MS. MENNINGER): Where did you go to have sex with Marvin Minsky?
• A: I believe it was the U.S. Virgin Islands, Jeff's -- sorry, Jeffrey Epstein's island in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 20:09, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

You have quoted the answer correctly, but that's not what the question says.[23] The question was: "Where were you and where was Ms. Maxwell when she directed you to go have sex with Marvin Minsky?" Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find an online copy of the full deposition to make sure it is being quoted correctly. --Macrakis (talk) 20:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I copied and pasted directly from the deposition. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 22:11, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Where did you find that text? Most sources I've seen show the other text. Anyway, even that text is ambiguous. --Macrakis (talk) 23:06, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Full Text. It's not ambiguous. --ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

And what about the rest of the testimony where Guifre admits to not knowing how old she was?

Q And when was that?

A I don't know.

Q Do you have any time of year?

A No.

Q Do you know how old you were?

A No.

SimetraartemiS (talk) 02:42, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

She was groomed and continuously used as a sex slave from the ages of 14-17, and Mr. Minsky used those services. There's no 'contextualization' that can change that here, Stravos. I thought Penn State was a cult for the way they turned a blind eye to child sex abuse. I had no idea that MIT was even worse cult. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 03:20, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Are you claiming that Minsky knew that Guiffre was a prostitute? SimetraartemiS (talk) 04:19, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Other People in the lab knew: 'The New Yorker reports that Epstein was aggressively courted by the Media Lab, which consulted him about the use of funds. He even brought young women in tow when visiting the Media Lab to meet with senior researchers in person as a VIP. (“All of us women made it a point to be super nice to them,” Signe Swenson, a former employee at the lab, told the New Yorker. “We literally had a conversation about how, on the off chance that they're not there by choice, we could maybe help them.”)' — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisRehm8814 (talk • contribs) 03:14, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Chronology matters. The Giuffre claim was about 2002. The New Yorker article is about the period after his conviction (2008). --Macrakis (talk) 13:27, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Chris, Guiffre was 16 when she first met Esptein. You can check it here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/09/nyregion/epstein-sex-slave-documents.html -- SimetraartemiS (talk) 00:35, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

• NO - do not state as “child trafficking agent”. Not a strong claim. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:40, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comments (refactoring discussion): I'm making a series of edits now to try to keep this discussion looking like an RfC and something that might still aid consensus, despite the participation of several new editors with limited understanding of our processes and little effort to investigate and adhere to basic talk page guidelines or behavioural norms. The mangled use of formatting in particular, plus a whole lot of irrelevant commentary has already made much of the foregoing discussion bloated and difficult to track. I have attempted to remedy this with some refactoring, but it will amount to very little if our new users do not put some effort into meeting baseline expectations for how to proceed in a consensus discussion on this project non-disruptively:

ChrisRehm8814, you need to slow your roll, my friend, particularly where it comes to WP:CIV, WP:NPA, and just basic courteous interaction with your fellow editors, or I assure you, you're tenure here will be limited indeed. We're already on the edge of how far we can indulge some of your behaviours before an administrative call is made to assess your ability to participate here, particularly when it comes to unwanted and irrelevant speculation on who you think your rhetorical opposition are and what you believe their motives to be. Neither area is a useful or acceptable topic for you to be ruminating on in a discussion on this project. Argue the point, not the supposed qualities or motivations of the other party, as you perceive them. On this project, we don't arrive at conclusions based on who advances them, but rather on the basis of which argument most consistently applies our WP:policies, as an expression of community consensus, to the subject matter and sources. In this regard, you are losing the argument here very badly at the moment, by failing to even engage on a level that is relevant under this project's approach to WP:Verification and WP:Reliable sourcing--and all the ad-hominems in the world will not help you gain consensus for your preferred approach if you can't re-adjust and make an argument predicated in this project's guidelines rather than accusations of a cover-up. In fact, those kinds of comments will only undermine your credibility and position further.

You have advanced an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim here. That means the WP:ONUS is upon you to find a WP:reliable sources which support your claim. And by that, I mean exactly your "client" language: the fact that 1) you have a source that says this exploited young woman has recounted being told to sleep with Minsky and that 2) it suffices (in itself) for you to feel comfortable arriving at the conclusion that he was an Epstein "client", does not mean it also suffices under our WP:verification policies to replicate your conclusion within the article. Please see especially our policies on WP:original research and WP:Synthesis. You need a reliable independent source to arrive at this conclusion, rather than you (or any other editor for that matter) making he determination yourself. In fact, because this is such an exceptional claim, you would need several high-quality sources to expressly use the "client" label before we could even consider using it in Wikipedia's voice. It is your responsibility as the proponent of this addition to supply this sourcing, and without it, you cannot prevail here. This is not a matter of bias or an attempt to whitewash--this is the standard Wikipedia approach to verification of content and to WP:neutrality, regardless of the topic in question.

SimetraartemiS: I took the unusual step of removing your last addition to the talk page. Having an entire portion of a statute plastered across the page, in an already disjointed and poorly formatted thread was just not tenable. Further, for reasons related to the WP:original research point I have just made to Chris, it is not relevant: we're not here to argue whether, in our own perspective/legal evaluation, Minsky would or would not have been guilty of this or that offense, had there been some theoretical trial over this or that set of theoretical set of facts. This is WP:NOTAFORUM for open discussion and speculation, even if your own commentary was directly in response to Chris' own original research: the answer to his approach is not to engage in that debate in similar terms, but rather to point out that we don't care about (or wish to see) such assessments by our own editors: we are concerned only about what the WP:reliable sources say about a particular topic, on balance of things, and within context. I have therefore deleted the statute and the subsection you created for it. I would advise not re-adding it, as it is irrelevant to the editorial discussion at hand, but if you feel you must make reference to it for some reason, please just use an external link to the relevant subsection of the online location from which you referenced the Title 18 offense. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:36, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Snow Rise: Thanks for your comments. Just one correction. The statute was not added to the Talk page by SimetraaretmiS, but by ChrisRehm8814 in this edit. --Macrakis (talk) 19:16, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing that to my attention, Macrakis. SimetraaretmiS, my apologies for the confusion: from all appearances on the live page at the time I began reformatting, it looked as if that was your addition. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:48, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Apologies accepted. SimetraartemiS (talk) 05:27, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

• NO - An associate explains why. Bottom line: "This is the first one about someone that I know personally and it rings false." ("unreliable" blog, but by a published author and expert.) https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2019/08/11/artificial-intelligence-and-commercial-sex-purportedly-intersect/ -- Yae4 (talk) 12:48, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

He doesn't explain anything. He tries to conflate this as being just like the Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump affair, which is a non-sequitur as that was a consensual affair between adults that is only of note because of campaign finance violations and threats made by Cohen after the fact to help cover it up. Just saying, "gee shucks he was an alright kind of guy who I could never see doing this sort of thing" is the very sort thing that enables this sort of systemic abuse to happen. ChrisRehm8814 (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Yae's source is A) not remotely a WP:reliable source for our purposes on Wikipedia, and B) is being used to advance a position based in WP:Original research. But, here's the problem: so are all of your arguments. If you want to include the claim that Minsky was a "trafficking client" of Epstein's, please show us multiple, high quality independent reliable sources that say as much. And by that I do not mean "Here is source #1 that says X, source #2 that says Y, and source #3 that says Z, and I [ChrisRehm], by combining these facts (which I judge to be established beyond doubt), have arrived at the perspective that this means Minsky is guilty of a particular crime." That is not how this project verifies claims or establishes WP:NEUTRAL, reliable content. You must show us sources that arrive at the exact same conclusion you want added to the article (here, that Minsky was Epstein's "client" in these sordid, exploitation matters). If you cannot provide such sources at this time, then please WP:DROPTHESTICK and let this matter go, because there is literally no other way that this content can be added to the article, and if you keep WP:BLUDGEONING this discussion with incessant comments that show you have made absolutely zero effort to understand the content standards and processes of this project, the likely outcome is that you will eventually be blocked for WP:disruption. Again, I urge you to read our policies WP:Original research and WP:SYNTHESIS before participating in this discussion further (also WP:Verification, WP:NPOV/WP:WEIGHT, WP:Reliable source, and WP:TRUTH--but start with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH). Snow ^{let's rap} 07:38, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Still NO. Philip_Greenspun who worked with Minsky has a good reputation. We could argue about that source. Nevertheless, we should also give weight to Minsky's widow, quoted in the (non-consensus reliability) source, which is already referenced in the section. A more neutral presentation might have a article section saying "Unsubstantiated claims released posthumously." Neutral presentation would give weight to Minsky's wife, quoted in the same NY Post source:

Minsky’s widow, Gloria Rudisch, denied to The Post that he had sex with Giuffre or any of the other girls at Epstein’s residences.

She said that she and Minsky visited Epstein’s residences in New York and Palm Beach “three or four times at the most” and that they always went as a couple.

“We were always together,” she said. “We didn’t stay at his house or anything.”

Rudisch said that there young girls at Epstein’s residences, but that “none of them seemed very young.”

“I’m a pediatrician, I think I would have noticed,” Rudisch said.

Of Epstein, she said nothing about him struck her as suspicious and that he seemed like “just a rich guy interested in science.”

-- Yae4 (talk) 11:53, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the section title "Unsubstantiated claims released posthumously" suggested by Yae4.SimetraartemiS (talk) 01:47, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with that section title for two reasons: the section title should be more neutral and more specific than that; there is the unfortunate (in retrospect) fact that Minsky did accept money from Epstein for a conference. Though there is no reason to believe that at the time (2002) he knew about Epstein's crimes, we probably should keep that information in the article. As a general rule, I've found that when there is a popular association between one topic and another, it's worth cross-referencing them so that misinformation doesn't get added instead. See, for example, the mention of "walking on custard" in Custard#Physical-chemical properties, even though in fact it is not custard at all that is being walked on. -- Macrakis (talk) 16:41, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, although I think that example is not an ideal one, insofar as we're talking about a misnomer in one instance and a vague and uncertain implication in another. However, putting the outside exemplar to the side for the moment, I certainly feel that something like the title you utilized in this version is considerably clearer, more neutral, encyclopedic in tone, more in keeping with Wikipedia norms and the relevant MoS section (WP:HEAD), and just simply reads less awkwardly. In fact, I would happily support your entire approach to the issue in the subsection you re-worked there as a reasonable middle-ground solution. I'll be honest, I'm not sure the amount of WP:WEIGHT we have here (one WP:PRIMARY source making ambiguous reference to the article's subject in a civil case deposition which has only recently come to light and which secondary sources have not as yet analyzed in any significant way) justifies any kind of mention of this accusation, given the WP:BLP implications. However, insofar as the story is out there now, and some small portion of readers may come to this article looking for some edification on the matter, perhaps it does make sense to review the circumstances surrounding Ms. Giuffre's statements. Furthermore, I am (Summoned by bot) on this one, and insofar as I am responding to a situation in which both sides seem to have conceded that at least this much coverage is warranted, I will place my recommendation of practical solutions within that spectrum. And within that context, Macrakis' edit is the more consistent with policy and the limited sourcing we have to work with on the matter, for now. Snow ^{let's rap} 23:18, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with by Snow Rise and support Macrakis (talk)'s verison [24] SimetraartemiS (talk) 12:06, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Re "both sides seem to have conceded that at least this much coverage is warranted". According to the information we have, Minsky (as opposed to Maxwell) did nothing of interest, so you might think the article shouldn't cover it. Giuffre says that Maxwell told her to do something. We have no corroboration of that. Giuffre does not claim that she did in fact follow Maxwell's instructions and do it. (We do have second-hand reports on blogs that Giuffre approached Minsky and that he declined, but that is definitely not a WP reliable source.)

So why mention it at all? Simply because people will come to Wikipedia to see what is known about the Minsky-Epstein relationship. Better to include the correct information (even if it arguably fails WP:WEIGHT) than to leave the impression that we are missing information (or worse, the impression that we have suppressed it). I have seen this pattern in other articles: if information appears to be missing, it tends to get filled in, often incorrectly. --Macrakis (talk) 14:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Only here for the RFC then I am outta here.
  The article says, at the time of my reading it:
  "In 2019, Virginia Giuffre, in an unsealed deposition in Federal court, named Minsky as one of Jeffrey Epstein's child sex trafficking clients."
  That seems to me unexceptionable if true, and probably adequate if true, unless someone has persuasive evidence of anything else of relevance to the article; it neither asserts nor denies his guilt, nor moralises nor comments on any basis for doubt or belief. People's tastes and morals in the matter are not of encyclopaedic interests, not in this article anyway. JonRichfield (talk) 06:10, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

It is not a correct report of what Giuffre said. She testified that G. Maxwell "directed [her] to have sex" with Minsky. She did not say that she did in fact have sex with him, nor did she say that Minsky was one of Epstein's child sex trafficking clients. Smaller point: she gave the testimony in 2016; it was unsealed in 2019. --Macrakis (talk) 17:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• Stick to sources. The wording in the article should be as close to the declaration by Virginia Giuffre as possible, which according to the disclosed document is that she was "directed to go have sex with Marvin Minsky" by Ghislaine Maxwell. Diego (talk) 07:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I've also changed the section title. "Accused" and "alleged" are the terms used by the news sources reporting the issue, so we should use them as well. Diego (talk) 07:58, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Since we have no way to verify one way or the other if Minsky did or did not have sex with Giuffe, the title should say "allegation". And I rephrased the main text to try and have it reflect that we do not know what what happened after she was told to aproach Minsky. SimetraartemiS (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

As Diego Moya says, we need to stick to the source. The source alleges that Ghislaine Maxwell did something, namely direct Giuffre to have sex with Minsky. It does not allege that Minsky did anything or accuse him of anything. There is no allegation against Minsky at all. Of course, as SimetraartemiS says, it is possible that Minsky did in fact have sex with Giuffre. However, we have no evidence at all of that, not even Giuffre's statement, so it is clearly not verifiable and thus does not belong in WP. So even "Alleged sex abuse" is incorrect. A more suitable heading is something like "Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein", and the section would mention the AI conference that Minsky ran and that Epstein funded. That may have been perfectly innocent at the time, but given the interest in Epstein's crimes, probably needs to be there. --Macrakis (talk) 14:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Macrakis is right. It should be mentioned that Minsky visited because that wa swhere the conference that Epstein funded was held. As Gloria Rudish said, they saw him as a "rich guy interested in science". SimetraartemiS (talk) 03:26, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

The section heading needs to be changed as there is currently no sex abuse allegation against Minsky. What we do have is media suspicion that he may have had knowledge of the sex trafficking ring because why else would Maxwell mention him by name to Epstein's victims? I don't know what the perfect wording is but maybe something like "Extent of his connection to Jeffrey Epstein" or "Posthumous scrutiny in relation to Jeffrey Epstein". Connor Behan (talk) 11:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

• NO - per Macrakis comments. If something has to be included in the article, I'd support Macrakis "Proposed consensus version" on "Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein". Cheers! --ColumbiaXY (talk) 19:16, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

---

Proposed consensus version

Based on the discussion above, I propose the following heading and text for the Epstein/Minsky section. As far as I can tell, only one editor, ChrisRehm8814, would object. --Macrakis (talk) 12:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein

Minsky organized a conference on common sense and artificial intelligence in St. Thomas in 2002 with financial support from Jeffrey Epstein, who in 2008 was convicted of procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18. In 2012, Epstein mentioned this conference to "[try] to rehabilitate his image".

In a 2016 deposition, unsealed in 2019, Virginia Giuffre testified that Ghislaine Maxwell, an associate of Epstein, had directed her to have sex with Minsky and other men. As of September 2019, there has been no independent corroboration of this, and none of the men have been charged with a crime or sued in connection with this.

That looks cautious and reasonable. Haukur (talk) 13:08, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with this concensus. SimetraartemiS (talk) 02:23, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Support per WP:BDP. Connor Behan (talk) 13:58, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I think the above version goes beyond neutrality. First, this is an article about Minsky, not about Epstein, so there is no need to mention Epstein's 2008 conviction, nor whether someone alleges that Epstein mentioned the conference to "rehabilitate his image", which is not even what the source said ("In 2012, as Epstein was trying to rehabilitate his image, he touted his foundation’s sponsorship of an academic conference organized by Minsky.") The above text claims Epstein's reason for mentioning the conference was to improve his image, but the source merely says that the mention and the image rehabilitation effort occurred sometime in the same year. Second, the above text repeats the allegation but not the refutation. Both Minsky's widow and Gregory Benford have refuted the allegation, and they both state that they were personally present. Benford says he watched Guiffre approach Minsky and watched him turn her down, and that Minsky talked about it to him afterward and that Guiffre did not approach Benford after seeing them speak about her. The above text reveals bias by never mentioning any evidence of refutations, and merely saying there's no corroborating evidence nor charges. Third, the section is too long for the importance of its topic, being filled out with phrases like "In a 2016 deposition, unsealed in 2019", irrelevant info that is readily available to anyone who follows one of the refs. This contested allegation is a very minor issue in the long and busy life of the subject of the article. Fourth, "Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein" is an overinclusive section title, since it appears that they had a much larger relationship (none of which is mentioned in this section) that included Epstein funding Minsky's AI work and the Media Lab that Minsky was associated with, Minsky recommending scientists for Epstein to invite to conferences, Epstein visiting Minsky, and Minsky and his wife visiting Epstein's other residences several times. Without such info, the relevance of which is questionable in an article about Minsky's entire life, the section title would be misleading. Having seen only the article and not the talk discussion, earlier today in this edit I retitled the section "Alleged to have declined sex offered by a 17-year-old" and made other similar changes. Giuffre's eyewitness/participant allegation is that she offered; Benford's eyewitness allegation is that Minsky declined; Minsky's widow made a general allegation denying that he had sex and stating that she was always present when Minsky was at Epstein's. There is no conflict between those allegations, all three have appeared in the press and the sources are currently cited in this page, and if we report one, we should report all three. Someone reverted my change and pointed me at the talk page, which is what led me to this discussion. For the above reasons, I think the edit I made is a much more neutral text than what appears above. I'm happy to discuss further. Gnuish (talk) 19:52, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with your proposed title because it focuses on the red herring of Virginia Giuffre's age. Since she offered sex under duress, Minsky would be legally bound to decline even if she were above the age of consent. Maybe "Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein" is not perfect, based on the WP:WEIGHT concerns you mention, but the longer we argue here, the longe the false one will stay up. Connor Behan (talk) 21:10, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, let's not try to tell a complicated story with the title. I tried "Epstein controversy" now but I also support a more fleshed out version with a title like "Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein". Haukur (talk) 21:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

There are several problems with Gnuish's version:

• The "refutation" you'd like to include depends on a hearsay source published in the Instapundit blog for the "declining" part; Instapundit does not seem to be a reliable source under WP rules. We do however have a good source saying that the claim is not corroborated, and did not lead to any criminal or civil charges against Minsky or any other of the alleged targets.
• The Slate article does not support the conclusion it footnotes. Nowhere in the Slate article does it say that the Minsky incident happened during the 2002 conference. I had actually included that claim in an earlier version I wrote, but then I realized that that was WP:SYNTH not directly supported by any source. In fact, in the deposition, Giuffre says that she didn't remember what year it was, and doesn't mention a conference. It's a reasonable inference, but we're not supposed to make inferences, reasonable or otherwise. In fact, one of the cited articles mentions a date of March 2001, not 2002.
• A section heading of "Alleged to have declined sex offered by a 17-year-old" is peculiar. We don't have section headers like "Claim that moon is made of green cheese refuted".

I agree with your basic point that -- if I were king of Wikipedia -- I wouldn't include the section at all. However, the way Wikipedia works, once a claim is associated with a topic, the article has to address the claim one way or another, otherwise it keeps getting added in more or (usually) less accurate ways over and over.

As for the other support that Epstein may have given Minsky over the years, given the high interest in Epstein, it seems that we should document it more fully, not less so. Establishing a clear chronology is important. Did Minsky accept money after Epstein was widely known to be a sex offender? Was Minsky complicit with Joi Ito in taking money while knowing that Epstein was such a bad actor that he was on MIT's donor blacklist? I certainly hope it isn't true. --Macrakis (talk) 23:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

PS The Instapundit source (which we can't use, since it's not WP:RS), by the way, corroborates Giuffre's claim. Which was not about Minsky, but about what she was told to do. --Macrakis (talk) 01:27, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Re whether Minsky had to decline. He can't be required to decline sex with someone under duress if he doesn't know that the sex is under duress. But no matter whether he was required or not, the point is that he DID decline. Yet the proposed consensus version never mentioned that. We have his wife saying so, in the same cited Verge story that made the original claim that Giuffre offered sex. If that source is reliable for saying Giuffre offered, then it's reliable for saying Minsky didn't have sex.

Re reliable sources. Giuffre's claim that she was ordered to offer sex is well sourced, and her actual deposition is online too, though we don't cite to it. Re whether they DID have sex, the second source, Instapundit, may or may not be reliable, I am no expert on that. But it is quoting a Facebook posting made by Gregory Benford himself. (I can't see that posting because I do not have a Facebook account, but lots of people can.) Yes, Benford is a primary source; that is why I cited other sources who quoted it and put it into context (e.g. calling the whole claim fake news). See BattleSwarm Blog's LinkSwarm for August 23, 2019 which says: "Gregory Benford says that the Epstein smear against Marvin Minsky is baseless. (Hat tip: Instapundit, which is a backup source if you can’t get to Greg’s Facebook page.)". Here's the Facebook link to Benford's posting, which I found linked from that blog text. A third source is the Investment Watch Blog copy of Benford's refutation.

Re the section title. We shouldn't be doing original research about all of Minsky and Epstein's connections, whether we think it's interesting or not. And particularly not to justify the use of an overbroad section title. I also agree that when thousands of enraged editors are trying to spam libelous claims into an article, the article should briefly address that claim in a balanced way. I agree that a section called "Claim that moon is made of green cheese refuted" would be peculiar. In Wikipedia, that section is called "In popular culture". Perhaps that should be the title of this section.

Gnuish (talk) 19:03, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

You're right, Gloria's statement, which is mentioned in the NY Post and other RS articles, should be reported. My mistake. Though it is problematic in that it only speaks of visits to NY and Palm Beach, not to St. Thomas, which Marvin clearly did visit (based on the conference report). I suppose it would be WP:SYNTH to point that out.

The Facebook posting by Benford is not a reliable source for two reasons: it is a primary source, and given the way Facebook works, it's ephemeral and not globally visible -- I can't see it using the link you give, for example. It would be nice to have a reputable media outlet quoting it, but I haven't found one yet: Instapundit and InvestmentWatchBlog are both random blogs and don't look like RS.

Agreed that we shouldn't be doing original research on Minsky and Epstein's connections. If reputable media point things out, we should follow. I agree that we should remove that part of the proposed version for now at least. --Macrakis (talk) 19:39, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

PS I mistakenly committed WP:SYNTH when I jumped to the conclusion that the incident Giuffre testified to would have taken place at the St. Thomas conference, and for that reason mentioned it. But in fact Giuffre doesn't say that, and at least one source gives incompatible dates. Yet another reason not to mention it. --Macrakis (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

While we have been discussing this, the section of the article has improved. It still has a few issues. Here it is:

Epstein controversy

In 2016, Virginia Giuffre named Minsky as one of the people she was "directed to have sex" with on Jeffrey Epstein's private island while she was 17 years old. It is alleged to have happened in 2002, during an AI conference hosted by Epstein at his compound in the US Virgin Islands.

One issue is that there is no source that alleges that the incident with Minsky occurred in 2002. We know (Slate) there was an AI conf in 2002 on the island, which included Minsky. We know (NY Post) that Giuffre was directed to have sex with Minsky. But not that the incident happened at that AI conf in 2002. Minsky visited Epstein several times in other places (Slate), and we don't know when else he had been on the island. Also, WP:SYNTH, Benford is not listed as being present in the AI Journal article about the 2002 conference, yet in Benford's (poorly sourced) claim, he was present when Giuffre propositioned Minsky. All this throws the article's claim that it happened in 2002 into doubt.

And if we don't know what year it happened, we also don't know the age of Giuffre at the time; the articles don't say, and in her deposition, she specifically disclaims knowing what year it happened (Verge: "Q: And when was that? A: I don't know."). (Daily Beast: "admitting she can’t remember the year or how old she was at the time.") This means she could have been of legal age at the time. Her birth date has not been publicly reported. The Verge article says that she was 17 "at the time of the flight" (to New Mexico and Palm Beach) in March 2001; the AI Journal paper linked from Slate says "This meeting was held in St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, on April 14-16, 2002." Bloomberg says "in 2000, when she was 16" which is consistent but doesn't say what month. If all three of these credible sources are true, her age was 18 during the 2002 AI conference.)

In short, I recommend removing "while she was 17 years old" and the whole second "It is alleged" sentence.

--Gnuish (talk) 02:52, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

More Epstein controversy

There is a mainstream media caveat: "None of the allegations in the case have been proven in court." Seeing as this is hinging on an untested deposition, should it not be included or at least touched upon?
-- Codesmith (talk) 16:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)