Talk:Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy

Is the chart relevent to the article, or is it OR/synthesis?

The chart is supposedly intended to illustrate the correlation between height and weight in two hypothetical human populations. It appears not to be based on any sourced data, instead using invented data intended to 'prove' the very point it is supposed to be testing, and as such its use seems to be a breach of NPOV, and/or a synthesis. Unless someone can provide evidence that it is based on real data, I intend to remove it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:31, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

There is no WP requirement that a chart only used to illustrate a mathematical argument must be based on real data.Miradre (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a 'mathematical argument' - the chart purports to illustrate human populations. I shall delete it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do, it clarifies nothing.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I can change the text to clearly state that it is about a hypothetical population.Miradre (talk) 19:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you change the text to state that it is about a two imaginary populations chosen to 'prove' its validity? And can I add a third imaginary population to 'prove' (per the 'Multi-Locus Allele Clusters' infobox above) that the methodology is flawed if one finds a clinal variation in allele frequency, and doesn't preselect the data to suit? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The chart is only about illustrating the method. No claims about any real population is made. I will clarify when adding back the image.Miradre (talk) 19:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Further reading section

Per WP:Further reading, "Further reading is primarily intended for publications that were not used by editors to build the current article content, but which editors still recommend. Some editors list sources that they hope to use in the future to build the article in Further reading. This is neither encouraged nor prohibited." The sources I included in the Further reading are sources that, seemingly from the snippet have relevant information that should be incorporated into the article. I, however, do not have access to the full work, so instead of falsely trying to claim it serves as a reference in the article, I put it in Further reading as potential further references, if someone can access a full copy of it. Lastly, Mankind Quarterly is absolutely a reliable source, it is a freaking peer-reviewed journal. Just because it has been called racist doesn't mean it is unreliable, especially since you don't know what the article inside of it states. Silverseren^C 21:52, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

How can you reccomend something you haven't even read? Also from WP:further reading "A large part, if not all, of the work should be directly about the subject of the article". I am reverting you again. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Simple example

A simple example might help to explain the fallacy. For example, suppose that group 1 exhibits equal numbers of AB and ab, while group 2 exhibits the same numbers of Ab and aB. Then each of A/a and B/b is independent of group, but AB is very strongly correlated. Of course that's just made up, but is there a similar, possibly even real, example in the literature? 195.10.225.68 (talk) 15:51, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Not only is it 'made up', it doesn't remotely resemble the situation that Lewontin and Edwards are discussing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:18, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Can we please do something about the title?

It seems evident from the recent AfD debate [1] that most commentators agreed that the article title needed revision to something more neutral - i.e. one that didn't assert that Lewontin's argument was a fallacy, but instead that Edwards had described it as such. Can I ask for contributors to make suggestions for an alternative title, as a matter that needs resolution. For now, I have added a template to the article, drawing attention to the issue. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I count 6 out of 14 in Favor of changing the article title, my count may be off, though. Andy, six could count for something, but does this honestly sound like consensus to you? --SlowhandMediator (talk) 02:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Boldly done. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

And now the article title has almost no connection to what the article is covering. This article is not about Lewontin's argument, but a paper response to Lewontin's argument. Why don't you just change it to the entire title of the paper, "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy"? Silverseren^C 00:11, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

because that paper is not notable. Of curse it will tak some tweaking t make the article cover its new topic.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

And also, of course, because the title of the paper isn't neutral... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The paper is notable according to the community at AfD. This action of trying to change the subject is blatantly going against community consensus. Furthermore, the title of a paper can't be non-neutral, the title is what it is. Something is non-neutral if we, within the encyclopedia, try to change it to something that it is not. That's exactly what you are doing here. Silverseren^C 00:24, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The AfD was not about the notabiliy of the paper but about the topic "lewontin's fallacy" - also it was clear hat consenus was to change the article's title to something neutral that covers both sides of the story. You seem confused about what neutraliy is - consider reading W:NPOV and WP:POVFORK.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Lewontin's Fallacy is the paper. It was always the paper. It is not a topic independent of the paper itself and all of the sources are discussing it in context of the paper. The other side of the argument is Lewontin's argument, which needs to be discussed in a separate article, as was stated at AfD. Silverseren^C 00:32, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That was stated by smeone in the afd yes, but it was wrong and also clearly not the consenus. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:37, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You yourself stating it was wrong doesn't mean anything. You alone can't determine what the consensus is, especially since you have a Merge/Delete opinion on the subject, not making you very neutral in terms of the consensus. Silverseren^C 00:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

But snce you vote keep automatically for all articles no matter how crappy hey are your opinions shsould be considered much more neutral? Please read the Afd agin - even several of the keep !voters clearly state the title needs to be changed. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:00, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I think I am more qualified to comprehend the consensus of an AfD discussion, considering the number I have been involved in. I vote Keep 93% of the time and AfDs close in conjunction with that belief 87% of the time. This is just on my last 250 AfDs however. You, meanwhile, have only been involved in 68 AfD discussions throughout the past five years and you have been correct only 62% of the time. Silverseren^C 01:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

For a discussion about an article regarding the application of statistics, you seem rather lax in your use of them. Snottywong's tool informs us that in the last 250 AfD's you have voted in, your vote matched the result 72.8% of the time. [2] Not that this tells us much. If, as you suggest, AfD's close as keep 87% of the time, then all you need to do is !vote keep for every AfD, to improve your success rate! AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I included No Consensus closes in with that percentage, as they default to keep. And I never said that all AfDs close as Keep with that percentage, I usually only become involved in AfDs where I think I can improve the articles in question and make it a Keep. Just like what I did with this article. Silverseren^C 01:59, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"I included No Consensus closes in with that percentage". Yup. A nice example of how to mislead with statistics. Hence the rather strange wording I suppose: "AfDs close in conjunction with that belief 87% of the time". Have you considered a career in politics? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You seriously keep statistics of other person's Afd participation...tha is creepy. In ay case Afds areno abou being correct - it is no a quiz show. Perhaps your highr percentag of "correctness" is because you unlike me have an army of automatic keep voters to back you up. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Um, no, I just have access to the really awesome AfD Stats tool that Snottywong made. If you go through the toolserver stuff, you'll find some pretty cool things beyond just the edit counter. And i'm just going to ignore your comment about the ARS, beyond the fact that I haven't used a rescue template in more than 500 deletion discussions past, so most of the discussions i'm involved in don't even have any other ARS members show up. If they do show up, it's on their own prerogative after randomly stumbling onto the discussion. Silverseren^C 01:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

ROFL! AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:16, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"The title of a paper can't be non-neutral". Don't be ridiculous. The title asserts an opinion (that Lowontin's argument is fallacious) as a fact. That isn't neutral. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I think what Silver Seren is trying to say is, the title is opinion, but reporting on the title is not opinion. Is it helpful to change the title of the article named after a paper, if someone is searching for the title of the paper?--SlowhandMediator (talk) 01:45, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

See, the issue with what you're doing is that you don't understand what WP:NPOV is about. It states "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view." It means that our representation of the outside content must be done in a neutral manner. For example, if the subject of the an article is on a hypothetical notable speech given by what most consider to be an evil dictator, we cannot present the speech as being negative or as being given by an evil person. We can put in responses to the speech and what people think of it and that would be proper, but changing anything about the speech itself is actually non-neutral, because you're trying to represent the subject in some way that it is not.

'You can present the person as evil, to the extent that the sources do', is what you are saying right?--SlowhandMediator (talk) 01:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That's what you're doing here. The outside subject of a paper called Lewontin's fallacy cannot be non-neutral, it just is. It is the title of the paper and is accurate and encyclopedic. If we try to change the title or any other representation of the paper away from what it is and what is presented in sources, then that action therein is non-neutral. Hence, by moving the title away from the actual title of the paper, you yourself have made the article non-neutral. Silverseren^C 00:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Let me add that, even if this hypothetical speech's title was "All X should die", with X being some group, changing the article away from that title is a non-neutral action, as that is the title of the speech. Of course, this is just an extreme example. Silverseren^C 00:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense. The articl will be written from a neutral perspective regardlss of is title. It just so happens that the article in question is not notable indepenently of the original article that it is a comment on. It also so happens that treating the response article separately from the original article is a breach of WP:POVFORk and of WP:NPOV. It seems you need to read both of those again. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, the subject is notable, according to the community consensus at AfD. The consensus was not to merge to an article about Lewontin's paper, as you seem to be trying to do. It is not a FORK of anything, it is an article in and of itself that the sources directly discuss. You're the ones going against consensus and policy. Silverseren^C 01:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You are wrong. Take it to ANI or AFDR. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Will do. Silverseren^C 01:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, that's probably not necessary, since you seem to have informed everyone else in the AfD about this discussion, which is good. I'll just wait for some of them. Silverseren^C 01:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The keep arguments were based on the subject matter, not Edwards' article; if it was, the title should be "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy". Lewontin's argument isn't the best choice either - "genetic diversity within and among human populations" would probably be more along the lines of what this should be about. Guettarda (talk) 03:09, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• The title of the article ought to be "Lewontin's fallacy" rather than "Lewontin's Argument" for the following reasons:

1. The phrase appears in the title of Edwards' paper is so is properly based upon a source, rather being a novel construction of our own devising.
2. The matter is accepted as a statistical fallacy by authorities such as Richard Dawkins.
3. The phrase seems to be the common name for the matter per sources such as Michael Ruse (2009), The evolution wars: a guide to the debates, As it happens, Lewontin has been accused (by AWF Edwards [2003], RA Fisher's last Cambridge student) of making a gross mistake about statistics — so much so that it is now referred to as "Lewontin's fallacy."

Warden (talk) 03:17, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• The title should be "Lewontin's argument", since the general reasoning is accepted, even though there might be a flaw in the statistical justification. As some subsequent commentators have mentioned, Anthony Edwards' paper itself relies on an assumption of statistical independence, which need not necessarily be justified. It is just a short note and it's not up to wikipedia to blow it out of proportion. The contributions of Edwards only make sense in the proper context, i.e. after a clear explanation of what Lewontin originally put forward. Some of those commenting here seem to be doing so to make a WP:POINT about the process involved in AfDs rather than improving this encyclopedia. The "scientific" arguments presented do not stand up to closer examination. Mathsci (talk) 04:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

How about it Silver? Can you defend this? --SlowhandMediator (talk) 04:19, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• What point is that? I'm here because User:Maunus posted on my talk page, inviting me to comment. The AFD seemed quite routine. What seems more in need of explanation is User:SlowhandMediator which seems to be a new account. Warden (talk) 04:27, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This article, and the AfD, was in regards to "Lewontin's fallacy", which is both the paper itself and the name of the theory. All of the sources are discussing Lewontin's fallacy. I'm not saying that Lewontin's original paper and his subsequent argument aren't notable. There are a number of sources about that sort of article and an article should be made on that. Then, there should be a background section in this article that has a main page link to that article. However, the AfD conclusion was about keeping the subject of this article, which is on the fallacy and the response to it. The response section is about the fallacy, Richard Dawkins is discussing the fallacy. I am against trying to essentially minimize the fallacy and its notability. Silverseren^C 04:46, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, which of the sources refer to a subject known as Lewontin's Argument? They may discuss a subject that includes an argument made by Lewontin, but you're making up a title that doesn't exist. Silverseren^C 04:48, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"Lewontin's fallacy" is part of the title of a short note, not the name of a theory, contrary to what Silver seren suggests. I have no idea why he is making such an absurd suggestion. Lewontin's argument does appear to be quite widely accepted, if not its precise statistical underpinning. It is equally silly to take Dawkin's book written for a general audience, i.e. not an academic book, to justify that this is a "theory", when Dawkins says no such thing. Articles in wikipedia are edited on the basis of what can be found in the best sources: in genetics or science in general, we rely on academic textbooks or articles, not on what the hoi polloi have suggested in an AfD debate. Mathsci (talk) 05:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

It is an academic paper, not a short note. Again, you're trying to minimize the subject just like in the AfD. Sure, this book alone wouldn't be enough, but that's why the references include this college textbook, this handbook, and this book. This is the same exact argument we had in the AfD and yours was clearly not the consensus version, as it closed as Keep. Silverseren^C 06:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

comment: There appear to be two issues here. (1) That the title of the article is a problem that needs to be fixed. (2) That the content of the article needs to be fixed. To the extent that there is a problem here, it is (2) not (1). The article needs to have a clear and contextual argument about what "Lewontin's Fallacy" is referring to. That means including significant content about the original paper. aprock (talk) 04:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with tightening the information on Lewontin's Fallacy. The information on how Edwards' statistics work especially needs to be written in a manner that is more comprehensible for the reader. At this point, Richard Dawkin's comment and interpretation of the Lewontin's Fallacy paper is the most clear cut example of what it means. Silverseren^C 05:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Why is Silver seren relying on a short comment in a popular book for writing an article on science on wikipedia? Mathsci (talk) 05:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

A summary of Edwards' paper made by one of the world's leading evolutionary biologists, who would obviously be knowledgeable about the topic in the paper. Silverseren^C 07:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a popular book for a general audience, not an academic text. It fails WP:RS in this particular contextt, regardless of how notable you think Rchard Dawkins is. Mathsci (talk) 09:21, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• The context here is the title of the article. It is our policy that we write for a general audience. In determining the title, a source of this kind is the best possible because it demonstrates the accessible language used by an authoritative writer when writing for a general audience. The book in question was nominated for a science writing prize by the Royal Society and so its quality and respectability for our purposes seem ideal. Warden (talk) 10:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

So before we argue about either content or name, we need to establish what this article is about. The AFD is useless here, since most of the discussion wasn't about Edwards' paper. Before we can move forward, we need to determine the topic of the article? As I see it, if consensus is that this is about Edwards' article, then:

• it should be named Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy
• it can be quickly dispatched to AFD, since it fails WP:NBOOK.

If, on the other hand, we're interested in the topic we need to find a title that's accessible to a general reader. "Lewontin's fallacy" and "Lewontin's argument" are both vague to the point of being useless.

We do, of course, have a third option, and that is to write an article either about Lewontin's original paper (The apportionment of human diversity) which is, of course, far more notable than Edwards' response to it, or we could write an article entitled something like Human genetic diversity. Which would, of course, encompass Lewontin's arguments, Edwards', and the wealth of other material on this topic. Guettarda (talk) 15:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The third alternative sounds very reasonable to me and, if done skillfully, would result in a proper encyclopedia article. Mathsci (talk) 15:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with options 2 and 3 suggested by Guettarda. I would like to note that in vogel and motulsky's human genetics the section which treates this subject is named after Lewontin's paper and Edwards' paper is cited but not mentioned. It also calls Lewontin's argument "irrefutable mathematical fact" (cited from memory original choice of words might be slightly different) and only mention that this fact does not mean that whenlooking at multiple loci populations do cluster (Edwards' argument). The book Human Biological Variation by Mielke, Kongisberg et al. also refers to Lewontins argument as a fact, not as a disproven fallacy.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:26, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

One more reason that the current title is less than desirable is that lewontin is in fact equally well known for another important argument - namely the one that group differences in biological traits can be due to only environmental factors. There is no tradition for talking about Lewontin's first and second argument, so that would be neologisms.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:32, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Lewontin's paper would also fail NBOOK, if it wasn't for that fact that academic papers don't fall under NBOOK for either of these. Academic books do, but this isn't a book. As far as I know, there is no specific SSG for academic papers, so we default to the GNG, which was met and proven to be met in the AfD, which is what we were discussing in it. And, pray, do tell what subject you believe we were discussing in the AfD? Because we weren't discussing Lewontin's paper, other than to say that that should probably have an article too.

And there are two ways we can go with this. We can either have the article be written about the paper, thus titling it Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy or we can have the article discuss the concept/argument of Lewontin's fallacy. Truthfully, the former would be the easiest to do, as the sources are directly discussing the paper and the responses to it. Some of the text would need to change a bit, but that isn't that difficult of a job.

And, again, yes, there should be an article on Lewontin's groundbreaking paper, but that is a separate article. Once that is made, then a properly formatted Background section can be made in this article that describes Lewontin's theory and a main page template link can be given to direct to the article on his paper. Then, the rest of this article is about Edwards' paper, as are the sources. Silverseren^C 19:46, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there maybe some sort of compromise between the two arguments, for example "Lewontin's Fallacy(scientific paper)". --SlowhandMediator (talk) 23:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That works too. Or even "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper)". I mean, if the issue is misunderstanding the title to be a real thing or some sort of insult at Lewontin. Silverseren^C 23:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Boldly created retitled article. ³SlowhandBlues¯ 12:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

What the heck? Not only has SlowhandBlues copy-and-pasted an article to produce two different POV-forks, (with no indication in the history of one, as required to preserve authorship history/copyright), but he/she has been editing this page under two different usernames (also as SlowhandMediator) - a direct contravention of policy. It is undoubtedly going to need administrator attention to sort this mess out, even without dealing with the matter of policy violations: I will report this at AN/I. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

There, better. Other version deleted and this article moved over there, so the content and history of the article is saved, fulfilling the necessary copyright requirements. Silverseren^C 19:10, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

No, not 'better'. This is still under active discussion, and no consensus for the move has yet been agreed. I suggest you self-revert, and then wait for others to comment. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

So, if I self-revert, will you self-revert Lewontin's Argument, as there isn't consensus for that move? Silverseren^C 19:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Though I guess it would be Maunus self-reverting, but still. Silverseren^C 19:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Silver seren, you have just received a logged ArbCom warning from SarekofVulcan. In addition, as SarekofVulcan pointed out on ANI, you already placed a deceptive template on the speedily deleted article with the same title, created by SlowhandBlues. You should unconditionally self-revert at this point. Mathsci (talk) 19:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

...deceptive template? I have no idea what you're talking about, nor why I was "warned", as there is no discretionary sanctions active on this article. I don't see it at the top of the talk page, nor the warning when I edit the page. Silverseren^C 19:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The current title ("Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper)") is unacceptable. can we change it, please? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure. What title? I'm fine with Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, as that's the title of the paper. Silverseren^C 19:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

We have already had this discussion above. I agreed with Guettarda's suggestion: "Human genetic diversity" is a suitably neutral and accurate title. We can add redirects from all other possible titles containing Lewontin's name (Lewontin's fallacy, Lewontin's argument, etc). Mathsci (talk) 20:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with that too, since it is the beginning of the title. Silverseren^C 20:12, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not fine with Silver seren's proposal. The article cannot possibly discuss Edwards' paper without discussing Lewontin first. It needs to discuss both viewpoints, in a neutral manner, and with a neutral title, in the proper historical context, and without implying that Edwards was 'right' - neither were, as more recent research shows. Anything else would be a breach of WP:NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:11, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

As i've said multiple times, Lewontin's paper is also notable and should have a separate article. Then, a better outlined background section can be included in this article with a main page link to the one on Lewontin's paper. And of course neither should be explained as right, but I don't think the article currently does. Silverseren^C 20:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Edwards' mathematical note only makes sense once a full explanation of Lewontin's argument is presented. Neither of them takes up much space, as at present. Mathsci (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I would also add that an article on Lewontin's paper wouldn't just be his argument, it would also include original reception to the idea when proposed, and all of the counterarguments, including Edwards', that were developed in response to it, also what sort of impact Lewontin's paper had on his field. Things like that. If you feel that a complete explanation of Lewontin's argument is necessary in this article, fine, but that doesn't mean Lewontin's paper shouldn't also have its own article. And the coverage of Lewontin's argument in this article should be as brief as possible, while being complete. I mean, the sources are able to keep the explanation fairly brief, so it shouldn't be that difficult. Silverseren^C 20:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, so Human genetic diversity, then. Anyone object to that? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

An article of that title will be fine, as far as I can see. Of course, neither Lewontin nor Edwards will play a major role in such an article, if it is to cover the topic properly. The subject goes back a long way, and is very much a still-evolving (and contentious) field. I suspect that this might be controversial though. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless i'm very confused about what is being suggested, I thought that that title was meant to be the beginning of the paper in an article about the paper? The point was to remove the Lewontin's fallacy bit from the title to make it more neutral, not to make it an article about the diversity in human genetics. It is still supposed to be about the paper. William, if you're going with Andy's understanding of the title, then I do object. Silverseren^C 21:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec) On hearing ATG's objection, I noticed that Human genetic variation is already a fully fledged article, in which Lewontin is mentioned in exactly this context. My modified suggestion therefore is to merge a condensed version of the current article into that article, creating redirects to the relevant segment of that article. How does that sound? Mathsci (talk) 21:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose Just because we have an article on an overall topic doesn't mean that we can't have separate article on influential topics related to the overall subject. It already links to this article anyways. Silverseren^C 21:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

It is the appropriate context and there seems to be little intellectual or scientific justification for doing otherwise. As for "influential", the paper of Edwards, although in the references of Human genetic variation, is not even mentioned in the text. Mathsci (talk) 21:37, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Er, 'influential'? In what way? As our article notes, Jeffry B. Mitton had made the same objection to Lweontin some time before Edwards paper was published. Can you find a source that actually says the paper was 'influential'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The fact that the paper is discussed in general college textbooks and handbooks in human genetics, not to mention that it is discussed and approved of by Richard Dawkins, leading evolutionary biologist. That's why it can be considered influential and, most certainly, notable. We discussed this in the AfD. Users found that the paper was notable and should be kept as an article, they did not find to delete or to merge somewhere else. Silverseren^C 21:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure that it our business at this stage to make comments about how "influential" Lewontin or Edwards have been. Silver seren has decided that we have to take the AfD as a point of reference, but he has been told by User:Causa sui that that is not how things work. I think for writing we use WP:RS. The book of Dawkins fails that. But for example the book "Human evolutionary biology" published by Cambridge University Press (2010) is a WP:RS. There is chapter by the biological anthropologist Jonathan Marks entitled "Ten Facts about Human Variation" which explains in detail the relevance of the work of Lewontin and of Edwards. This is the kind of source to use and there others like it. Marks, like other commentators, points out that Lewontin's observations have been verified empirically and are not disqualified by Edwards' statistical argument. Guided by Marks' article and its title, it seems wholly appropriate to include this material briefly in the article Human genetic variation. The discussion on wikipedia should not be very different from what is found in that textbook or similar sources. Mathsci (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Likewise the Chapter on "Human Genetic Diversity and its History" in the 2007 Wiley Handbook on statistcal genetics discusses the observations of Lewontin, which were justified by at least 3 different statistical approaches after Edwards' critique was published. Mathsci (talk) 23:02, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I never stated that either Lewontin or Edwards are right in the conclusions proposed in their papers. I don't think this is a discussion about that. This is a discussion about having articles on the papers themselves. Silverseren^C 23:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

For writing wikipedia articles we rely on secondary sources like these which discuss Lewontin and Edwards together in context. There is no need to make spurious claims about "influential" papers. In both cases above, Lewontin's observations are described precisely in a historical context; Edwards' critique of Lewontin's original analysis is mentioned; and then, even in the light of that critique, it is explained that Lewontin's observations still hold true. There is no reason for wikipedia to give a different impression. There are more references of this kind. Mathsci (talk) 23:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay? You have yet to explain why we shouldn't have articles on both of the papers. You're discussing how the information in the articles should be presented, which is a content issue. I don't see how it applies to this discussion. Have you looked at this source yet and the entire Race and Mathematics section? Silverseren^C 23:28, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Editorial Integrity

Just for the record my personal opinion is that this paper is a hot, steamy pile o rubble. All the findings mean is that the alleles are in a different sequence, but since the execution of the data(copying to rna, followed by protein forming) is not done in order it doesn't matter anyway. 6% is still 6% no matter where it's located. But that's just me. ³SlowhandBlues¯ 00:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC) confirmed sock of banned Bentheadvocate (talk · contribs)

Agreed. The theory is kinda silly. There's some merit to it in a very general sense, but that's all. Silverseren^C 00:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

What? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

We're kinda discussing WP:NOTAFORUM stuff, in that we're giving our personal opinion about Edwards' actual theory in the paper. It has no real relation to the above discussion though. Silverseren^C 00:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you either (a) stick to WP:NOTAFORUM then, or (b) try to give the impression that you understand the topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

wait in what way are we not understanding the topic?--³SlowhandBlues¯ 13:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Obvious sock was obvious... AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Page move

Since the page has been moved, does that mean we have consensus that the article is about Edwards' paper? We need to clarify that, so that we can move forward to AFD. Guettarda (talk) 01:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

So you're going to do another AfD? And what exactly are you going to say is different from what the article was like in the last AfD? The page was moved and the first sentence rearranged. Other than that, the content is exactly the same as it was in the last AfD when it closed as Keep. Silverseren^C 02:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

No, no such consensus exists outside of Silverseren's wishful thinking.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Move/Merge

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved: no concensus in 26 days, no more messages in 14 days. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:16, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper) → Lewontin's argument – The article is currently located at a location supported only by SilverSeren and (perhaps?) Colonel Warden - a rather large number of editors seem to prefer another location and content of this article. I suggest we either locate it at Lewontin's argument and treat the entire issue in a single location, or that we merge it into Race_and_genetics#Lewontin.27s_argument_and_criticism. I do not support a merge into Human genetic variation since Lewontin's and Edward's arguments are about the degree to which genetic analyses support the validity of racial categories - human genetic variation is a very large topic that is not primarily concerned with racial differences, but everything from genetic illnesses to haplogroups. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Since one editor does not feel that he has been given reasons for the proposal here goes: 1. Edwards paper is not notable independently of Lewontin's argument and the general debate - the fact that it is mentioned and cited in some textbooks does not prove independent notability. 2. The article is only one side in a larger argument splitting it from the rest of the argument would be in clear conflict with WP:NPOV and WP:CONTENTFORK. 3. PResenting the article out of context is unhelpful to the readership who have no chance of understanding the significance of the topic unless put into its proper context. All these reasons were presented and argued at length by a majority of editors at the recent AFd - so it is surprising that someone who participated in the afd are not aware of the reasons.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:16, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

So, essentially, this is AfD part 2? You disliked the fact that it closed as Keep, so you're trying to get it removed or changed one way or the other through this proposal. Silverseren^C 01:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

The difficulty is that those who !voted 'keep' at the AfD have since done nothing to resolve the problem that almost everyone acknowledged - that the existing article and title had a POV problem. Unless you are going to suggest that an AfD is a binding agreement to retain an existing article in a policy-contravening state, something needs to be done. Any useful suggestions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:39, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I...already did it. The reasons for the requests for name change was because just being "Lewontin's Fallacy" could be misconstrued in a number of ways. Therefore, I moved the title to the full paper name and specifically pointed out in the title that it is a scientific paper. Thus, the issues with the name are fixed. Silverseren^C 01:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

So you think changing the title to a name that Edwards used to imply that Lewontin's argument was fallacious is NPOV? Yeah, right... The paper might well be 'scientific', but the title isn't. Or at least, it certainly isn't neutral. Anyway, you've not offered any suggestions as to how an article on one side of an argument can maintain NPOV. It can't, without either extending the remit of the article well beyond that of the implied remit, or engaging in editorialising to finish with a postscript that says that so far the issue is unresolved, and neither Lewontin nor Edwards are 'right', which is an accurate description of the current situation as I understand it - but I can't provide evidence for this without discussing events outside the narrow article topic, as presently defined. Your interpretation of the consensus at the AfD (which I dispute) would imply a !Vote to breach policy - which an AfD cannot do. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• support as proposer.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support the proposed merge, though the proposed section title looks a little clunky: how about 'Lewontin vs. Edwards: a debate on statistics'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:39, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose both, obviously. And why are you having a Move/Merge discussion? I don't think there's a proper template for that, because you don't do it. You have not presented a single reason why there shouldn't be an article on this paper or why it should be merged. Thus, this should be closed, as no reasoning has been presented by the nominator or by Andy. Silverseren^C 02:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The reasoning is quite simple: nobody is able to explain how we can discuss the Lewontin/Edwards debate in a NPOV manner while only presenting one side of the argument. Forking the article into two is not only against policy, but illogical, since the debate only makes sense in a broader context. So unless you can suggest what a 'single' article on the topic should be called, and how it can maintain NPOV, a merge seems to me at least to be the only viable solution. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I think a an article on the paper should use the full name of the paper. That's why I moved it to the full name, since people has issues with it just being Lewontin's Fallacy, as that could be misconstrued in a number of ways. The current title reflects the subject exactly, as being about a research paper. Silverseren^C 03:47, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

And how can an article that only discusses one side of a debate preserve NPOV? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not discussing a debate, it's discussing the paper. And it has a background section anyways that explains Lewontin's original argument. Nothing in this article is saying that Edwards' paper is authoritatively correct. It quotes important people who have an opinion on it, but that's all. What exactly is POV about the article? Silverseren^C 04:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

That it 'quotes (some) important people that have an opinion about it'? Why exactly is this single paper in an ongoing debate so worthy of attention? It isn't the last word, and it wasn't even the first place the objections raised by Edwards were aired. The paper is meaningless without context, and implying it has a special significance by giving it an article all to itself gives it more weight than it deserves. Can you give other examples of encyclopaedias that treat single scientific papers in a similar manner? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

We make articles based on the sources available for subjects and the attention given to them. In this case, numerous sources have specifically discussed the paper in question, with it even being included in college textbooks. Are you seriously suggesting we should be removing articles such as Molecular Structure of Nucleic Acids: A Structure for Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid or Sickle Cell Anemia, a Molecular Disease? Silverseren^C 04:54, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - There's nothing at all wrong with having a move/merge discussion, regardless of the non-existence of a template for that. Editors are encouraged to set up discussions that are appropriate to the situation, and custom templates are not required. If there's something to discuss, then there's no reason to close the discussion. We don't do purely procedural things like that. The point is to get the information to the right title, whatever that involves. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The only reason we've got a template for move discussions and not for move/merge discussions is that the latter happens less often, and nobody's seen fit to make a template for it. Such a template would be welcome, though. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
    • The issue is that it's trying to combine two completely different procedures. What happens if the discussion ends with half saying move the title and half saying merge the article somewhere? Do we go to no consensus and not do either of those things or do just one of them? How do you stay neutral in which one you do? The thing is that moving an article title and merging an article should not be presented together, because they are asking for completely different things. Silverseren^C 03:48, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
      • It's really not a problem. If there's split opinion on whether to merge or move, we try to get more people to the discussion and find a consensus. Wikipedia is not procedure-bound, and that's a Good Thing. It's best to just explain what you think should happen with the article and why, otherwise we end up having these meta-discussions about procedure that don't help anything. I'm pretty sure I've seen move/merge proposals in the past and there was no problem. Just give it a chance and see what happens. We're all intelligent people who aren't going to be stuck because of some procedural hangup. Trust me, it's okay.

        Do you think the article should be moved, or merged, or neither? -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support merge The article suggested by Maunus is the most appropriate one suggested so far. It is completely in line with the way these matters are discussed in the recent secondary sources I have explicitly cited above. Mathsci (talk) 07:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

It's already discussed there anyways. You haven't presented any reason why this article should be merged when the content is fine. There should really be some rule about Delete/Merge voters in an AfD that ends in Keep pushing through a "consensus" merge anyways. :/ Silverseren^C 07:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Silver seren, what you write is incorrect. Above I have carefully given recent excellent secondary sources which discuss both articles in their proper context (race, genetics, human genetic variation) and have suggested consequently that merging the content to a general article is the best way forward. I am sorry, but I am not going to repeat myself. Please look further up the page, by scrolling if necessary (22:30 and 23:02 on 1 August). Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• Merge to the Race and genetics article, as proposed by Maunus. How on Earth did this one ever get kept at AfD? The paper has been cited just 43 times in Web of Science. If that makes it notable, we'll have our work cut out for us (I myself have -as of today- 23 papers with 43 citations or more), there are hundreds of thousands of papers with this kind of citation counts. It's a reliable source though, so it can be used to source some criticism in an article where Lewontin's ideas are mentioned, but a standalone article this frankly is absolutely ridiculous. --Crusio (talk) 08:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Because notability for papers is not based on their citations anywhere, but on the GNG. The reason it was kept was because of the references available that discussed the paper itself, such as this, this, this, and this. Silverseren^C 23:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you actually bother to read the sources you find on Google, Silver seren? At least two of the four sources you provide are actually arguing against Edwards' position in the debate - not that a single mention in passing in a book is particular evidence for notability anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Arguing against Edwards' has nothing to do with coverage of his paper, it is coverage nonetheless. And, if you actually looked at the sources, you'd see that they are definitely not passing mentions. Silverseren^C 00:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Personally I would guess that Crusio, a senior academic researcher in France, is very well placed to evaluate academic articles and books. "Google books" is never used to make such an evaluation. Mathsci (talk) 23:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

A reseracher working within the field of human genetics in fact - although of course we don't like experts here at wikipedia.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:09, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

He would be perfect for finding proper references and sources on broad spectrum subjects, such as the Race and genetics article, but when dealing with articles about other scientists in the field (and their papers), it's a bit more iffy, as he would clearly be involved in his opinion and it is impossible to know if he is neutral in that regard or not. Silverseren^C 00:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

But, as far as wikipedia is concerned, as an anonymous user you have no presumed expertise at all. Your opinions, such as those stated above, are even less than "iffy". They are without any value whatsoever, not so? Mathsci (talk) 01:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, just like every other editor. Anyway his argument is based on the number of citations not on his personal opinion.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

But number of citations has nothing to do with notability in this case. It's not like we have an h-index for papers or anything like that. Silverseren^C 01:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I am sure you are more than aware that that is not how things work in the academic world. Mathsci (talk) 01:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Um, I am aware of notability works on Wikipedia, which is all that matters. As far as I know, there is no specific guidelines for articles on paper, so you default to the GNG, which has to do with coverage in reliable sources, not with number of citations (or lack thereof). Silverseren^C 01:21, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

"There is no specific guidelines for articles on paper"? Really, so Wikipedia:Notability (books) is a figment of my imagination, is it? And it doesn't say in relation to "Academic and technical books" that "...how widely the book is cited by other academic publications..." is of relevance to notability? Or are you suggesting that since 'a paper' isn't 'a book', we can ignore this? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Papers do not fall under WP:NBOOK, as was already discussed in the AfD. Papers cannot meet any of the criteria under that, such as literary awards, being a subject of instruction in schools, to have been made into a film, ect. Therefore, there are no specific guidelines for papers, so like we do for every other subject that doesn't have a guideline, we default to the GNG, which is met through the sources I have repeated multiple times (which were held up in the AfD). Silverseren^C 01:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but saying something repeatedly doesn't make it true. And why do you think that citations in other academic publications (presumably including papers?) were seen as of relevance when discussing the notability of academic books? Do you think that policy came out of thin air, or that it had a purpose? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Being cited in the media and by other publications is completely different from how papers are cited (from other scientists doing similar research). And, if you're going to go that route, then you would also have to include such citations within other works, like the fact that the paper was cited in a college textbook, by Richard Dawkins, and in numerous other places outside of other papers by scientists. Silverseren^C 02:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The fact is that we have a criterion in a closely-related context that states that "citations in other academic publications" are relevant to notability, and you are ignoring this, because it doesn't suit your purposes. I'll ask again: why do you think that citations in other academic publications were seen as of relevance when discussing the notability of academic books? Either explain your reasoning, or concede that it should be seen as relevant here too. AndyTheGrump (talk)

Then my response would be, per that section, citations is one of the suggested basis for establishing notability. Having a large number of citations can establish notability, but the lack of them doesn't do the opposite. Having a large number of citations adds to notability, but there are also other things that create notability, such as coverage in reliable sources. The reason why the citations don't apply is because, if they do not add to the notability, then they are irrelevant for the discussion of notability. Silverseren^C 04:27, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

So why exactly are non-academic 'reliable sources' more relevant (or, more to the point, more 'reliable') regarding an article about an academic paper than academic ones? Is it perhaps because the paper isn't actually of any great academic notability at all, but instead happens to have a catchy title that POV-pushers have latched on to (don't bother to answer this - the answer is self-evidently 'yes', as you have already demonstrated). Basically you are arguing that a debate about the notability of a scientific paper has to ignore its scientific significance. An interesting argument, but one that won't get you far. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:06, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Don't merge. There are two issues: Notability and NPOV. The AFD linked at the top of this page reached a consensus that the topic of the article is notable, though neutrality was maybe still an issue (I know the article had a different title during the AFD, but the content was the same). The post linked below at the NPOV noticeboard doesn't address the issue of notability, but both uninvolved editors who commented there agreed that its title is NPOV. Quoting Brmull: "It can't be notable enough to have its own article but not notable enough to have the full name of the paper as its title." So the outcome of the AFD is that it is notable, and the outcome of the NPOVN thread seems to be that there's no NPOV issue for the article to have the same title as the paper. Therefore I see no grounds for a merge.Boothello (talk) 01:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course the new title is neutral - the contents however aren't, and cannot be unless treated with the rest of the argument. If we treat the entire argument at the article on Edwards paper then what are we going to write in the article on LEwontiin's paper? If not exactly the same? Following the approach of having article for every article in the debate with sufficient citings we are going to end up having an article on Lewontins original article that if both articles are neutral is going to repeat this one in every detail. That is silly. The arguments should be treated together and not repeated in separate article about all of the papers in which related arguments have been advanced. This is a simple question of editorial logics.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:35, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you explain how exactly the article's content is non-neutral? Lewontin's views are presented in the background section and then Edwards' views are represented in the next section. Neither viewpoint is presented as being correct, they are merely discussed. The mere fact that the article is discussing a paper that is an argument does not make it non-neutral. What exact content, sentences and such, are non-neutral in the article? Because neutrality is a content issue that should be fixed, it is not a merge issue. Silverseren^C 01:45, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Merges are editorial decision about how best to organize content - we don't need to repeat the same content in article's about Lewontin's paper and in Edwards' paper. Now the NPOV issue is this: the article is currently presenting the discussion as if Edwards paper is more important than Lewontin's which by all accounts it isn't. It also does not present any of the arguments against Edwards description of Lewontin's argument as a fallacy. It also does not present the most current mainstream views about the implications of allele frequency analysis on the population level for the concept of race. It gives undue weight to Edwards particular view in the context of the general debate. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:53, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

It should direct the reader to the other articles that have that information, that is the purpose of the Main article link template, after all. Having an article on Edwards' paper doesn't mean it is more important than Lewontin's. Lewontin's paper should have an article as well, arguably a fairly longer one. We don't assign "importance" to article topics and remove the less important ones. We cover all subjects in different articles. And an article on Edwards' paper does not give undue weight to his paper, that doesn't even make any sense. Your only argument seems to be that because there aren't articles on the other views, this one is given weight, but that's not how it works. That just means all of the other views need articles as well, if they don't currently have them. Silverseren^C 02:04, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

You are either failing to comprehend or deliberately misrepresenting my arguments. I direct readers who are interested in my actual arguments to read my statements above. And your statements about what "we do" are wrong - wikipedia works by making editorial decisions about how best to present topics to readers. This discussion is the way fo making such decisions.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

AfD is a method of making such decisions and a decision was made. And a group of the people who voted Delete in the AfD coming around to get rid of the article through another method (with Crusio and Boothello being the only independent people at this point, making it 1 to 1) is in its own way another method of Wikilawyering the processes to get rid of an article you dislike. Your statements elsewhere have shown that you have a personal dislike for the opinions presented in the article subject and this seems to be true for the other AfD Delete people involved in this discussion. You're not treating this neutrally, you're treating it as a method to get rid of and otherwise minimize a scientific viewpoint you disagree with. Silverseren^C 02:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for assuming good faith and not arguing ad hominem. Perhaps you are just here arguing against me in a topic you clearly know little about out of grudge for the time I warned you for making ad hom,inem generalizations about Jewish editors... I on the other hand have been involved in this topic for quite awhile and have been able to get a long and argue constructively even with most of the people with whom I disagreed. I also happen to know something about this topic, due to having read widely about it and I also happen to have an interest in making wikipedia present this topic in a way that allots weight to viewpoints according to their prominence in relevant literature. You are arguing ad nauseam against a majority of editors who are better read in this topic than you - you do not listen to arguments, but rather distort other editors arguments. This is disrruptive editing the kind for which people have been topic banned. As an editor who has recently been warned about the discretionary sanctions for this topic you would do well to keep this in mindm, and adopt a more collaborative stance. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

You bringing up the mishandled discretionary sanctions warning and the Noleander thing is also an ad hominem, and I don't see any collaboration going on at all. You want to remove this article, I want to keep it. Where exactly do you collaborate on that? And you being an "expert" on the topic doesn't mean that you or anyone else gets to decide based on your opinion what should be kept or removed. The improvement that experts bring to the project is their ability to find references that are unavailable to the general public and to make articles on subject that would be obscure for anyone else who isn't an expert. The downside to experts being a part of the project is that they often bring their strong POV, as all experts have a POV in relation to their field, there are things they believe in terms of their subject and things they don't believe, which often leads to extensive warring between different bodies of experts, essentially bringing the academic camp wars straight onto Wikipedia. It's for this reason that the R&I sanctions were ever put into place, because of this warring, and I really don't think the benefits experts bring to the project is worth the downsides in the long run if they can't remain neutral. Silverseren^C 02:52, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Because amaterus like you are always neutral and never have strong political opinions or general preconceived ideas. Experts' opinions are based on knowledge. Yours is based on ignorance. And Yes I am responding in kind to your repeated ad hominem attacks and baiting. So report me. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:58, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Silver seren seems to have a misunderstanding of how wikipedia is written. More significant material gets proportionately more coverage, whereas peripheral material gets less. Mathsci (talk) 02:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

And this article subject has gotten enough coverage to be considered notable, that is what the AfD proved. Silverseren^C 02:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The AfD proved nothing, no AfD does. And the article then was about the catchphrase "Lewontin's fallacy", not the paper. Mathsci (talk) 02:21, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

So you're saying that every result that every AfD ever done doesn't mean anything, since they "proves nothing" And the prior version of the article was still about the paper. The entire article was the exact same, other than the lede saying Lewontin's fallacy. It was quite clearly about a paper. Silverseren^C 02:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The Afd was about the notability of the topic "Lewontin's fallacy" not about the contents of the article - someone kept saying at the AfD that content issues should be discussed elsewhere. That is what we are doing now.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support or at best merge to Race and genetics. The present title itself is POV.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Per the NPOV noticeboard discussion, no, it is not, so you may wish to reword your argument, as the title of a paper exterior to Wikipedia can't be POV, as POV is an internal writing construct in relation to Wikipedia. Silverseren^C 02:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

"The title of a paper exterior to Wikipedia can't be POV"? That is a dubious proposition at best - but in any case, what we are debating is whether using an article cherry-picked for its name (it actually doesn't seem to have a great deal of academic significance) to provide a title is neutral. Ah, but you don't think that academic significance is, er, significant...AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:40, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

There are two kinds of significance when dealing with these types of articles that can determine their notability. There is academic significance, which is one way, and there is also significance given to the subject outside of academic circles, which is reflected in the sources in this article, which show that the paper in question has been considered significant by a number of people (including some academics). Silverseren^C 03:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I actually agree with SilverSeren on the NPOV issue (not the notability issue)- NPOV doesn't extend to titles, for example we have an article called "Death to the French". As long as the topic is notable and the title is the common name and the article describes the topic in a neutral manner there are no NPOV concerns. Here however we have pov concerns because for the article to describe the topic neutrally it would have to include a higher proportion of information about Lewontin's paper than about Edwards'. That is the problem here - not the title per se.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support Counter proposal renaming to Lewontin's fallacy as proposed. The current title indicates far too narrow an article scope, considering the gap between this article and the broader Race and genetics article. There seems plenty of material to justify an article on Lewontin's fallacy, the name seems common enough [3], it's a good solution to a very tricky question. Andrewa (talk) 03:59, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

You appear to be 'supporting' a proposal that nobody is making. I suggest you read the discussion here, and do a little research into the topic, before commenting further. (and Google hits prove little: "One-legged fish" gets 155,000 hits, apparently... [4]). AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:10, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Then regard the proposal as hereby made, see above. I did spend half an hour getting up to speed on the proposal, reading not only the previous discussion but also the AfD and other related pages, I agree that I didn't word my vote as well as I might have but nobody is perfect. Suggest you exercise a little more tolerance. Andrewa (talk) 04:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you clarify what, other than Edwards' paper, an article entitled 'Lewontins fallacy' would be about? You are apparently proposing to widen the scope of the article, but giving no indication of what you consider the scope should be. Lewontin came up with an argument. Edwards called it a fallacy - and logically, this is what an article called 'Lewontins fallacy' would discuss. If you think the article should cover broader topics, then the title should indicate this. This has nothing much to do with 'tolerance', and a great deal to do with trying to make Wikipedia comprehensible to people unaware of the petty political squabbles going on in the background. Proposing to revert the article to a title that almost everyone agrees is contentious is hardly helpful. So no, I don't consider 'tolerance' particularly important, if it involves tolerating going around in endless circles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:31, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Why would it be about anything other than what appears to be most commonly called Lewontin's fallacy? I'm sorry if you see this as going around in circles, and if you see my contributions as unhelpful. Consensus can take some time to achieve, and there are some real and difficult issues here. Agree that the word fallacy is contentious, and that's not the only issue here but it seems to be the trickiest. My contention would be that if it's commonly known as a fallacy, then that's the title the article should have, even if it were actually agreed to be a valid argument. In the same way that it's generally agreed that French toast is not toast, but we don't even have a redirect from the food commonly and wrongly called "french toast". Such clarifications however worthy are not part of the article title, and that policy is fairly generally followed, although there are many (regretable IMO) exceptions. Andrewa (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Ridiculous. You do a Google search for 'Lewontin's fallacy', get some hits, and use that to suggest that the most common name for the term 'Lewontin's fallacy' is... well, 'Lewontin's fallacy' obviously. You've not actually demonstrated that it is a common term at all - or is 'One-legged fish' also common? As I've already shown, this gets more Google hits. I think you may have invented another fallacy, all of your own. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:58, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Let's start again. The current title has little to recommend it, and the purpose of this discussion is to try to come up with a consensus on a new title. Are those two points agreed? Andrewa (talk) 03:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, no title has much to recommend it. As I argued when starting the AfD, the Lewontin/Edwards issue is merely a small part of an ongoing debate, and can only be understood in the broader context. Sadly, when the admin concerned closed the AfD as keep, no indication was given as how we could solve the very problems that led to me nominating the article for deletion in the first place. I don't see any way to achieve a 'consensus' which can reconcile two incompatible objectives: to have an article about 'the topic' (whatever this is defined to be) and to maintain general Wikipedia policy regarding NPOV, content-forks, weight etc. The article picks out a particular incident in the debate over genes and 'race', elevates it to special status, and implies that it has a greater significance than the evidence supports. It thus follows, through simple logic, that the most 'objective' article on the subject is one that merely treats this as a part of the broader scientific debate - i.e. one covering the whole issue. Any other 'consensus' is going to be flawed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, but that battle seems to be lost. But this RM seems to me to have some merit. The name can be improved upon, and the proposed move (and sorry I got this dialogue off on the wrong foot by sheer carelessness...) would be an improvement IMO, but I think we can do even better. What I don't really understand is what you hope to achieve now... there's going to be an article on this general topic it would seem, following the AfD. The concept of flawed consensus doesn't seem all that useful to me... I operate on the opposite principal, that if we can't achieve consensus then it doesn't really matter which way we go. This is not a popular principle in some circles! Readers Digest once had a marginal comment that I still love: The difference between a prejudice and a conviction is you can explain a conviction without getting mad. (I think from your user page you might like Tom Lehrer's song National Brotherhood Week, do you know it?) Wikipedia isn't perfection, maybe is not even asymptotic to perfection. So we need a certain pragmatism. That's a bit of a ramble... with me so far? Andrewa (talk) 08:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

• Currently pages Lewontin's Argument and Lewontin's argument are redirects with no history except redirects. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:49, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

NPOV Noticeboard discussion

Noticeboard discussion can be found here. Silverseren^C 04:45, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Total fabrication in introduction

"Anthropologists generally acknowledge the validity of Edwards' argument, but deny that this means that races are biologically real, since the same statistical argument can be used to argue that almost any geographic population is a biologically distinct "race".[5]"

Note that, firstly, this is the very definition of a weasel-word ("generally"? How can we claim what anthropologists "generally" do, even if we did have a source that claimed such?) and, second -- correct me if I'm wrong -- the source given does not appear to even mention Edwards' contributions, let alone claim what the above paragraph implies it does. 96.44.114.222 (talk) 08:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. The source didn't mention Edwards, Lewontin, or have the phrase Lewontin's fallacy in it in any form. Therefore, I have removed it. Silverseren^C 16:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Silver, it looks neater and more relevant now. 96.44.114.222 (talk) 22:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Use of the infobox in this article

Interesting as it is for the casual editor to see the complexities of the maneuverings when a Wikipedia article is controversial, the processes can be somewhat arcane. In this case, I note that the infobox has the simple misprint "the probability of and individual", which clearly should read "the probability of an individual", yet correcting this is not subject to normal editing. I would have thought that the presence of an object which is difficult to edit within a controversial article would in itself be a matter of controversy? Surely there should be another class of infobox which is more susceptible to editing.Collieuk (talk) 13:40, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

You can edit the infobox here: Template:Infobox multi-locus allele clusters.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Long 2009

I should of course have checked Long before - but I thought I could at least trust Mikemikev to cherrypick papers that in fact pretends to support his conclusions. Long, however, definitely does not. In the conclusion to the update he writes: "Now, with more genetic data and more populations sampled, we are able to revisit the race problem with greater accuracy. Recently, my colleagues and I have tested the usefulness of race as a way to describe genetic differences among populations by contrasting the results of racial classification with those from generalized hierarchical models (Long et al. 2009). Race fails! Figure 3 diagrams the contrast for a data set consisting of complete DNA sequences for 64 autosomal loci (38,000 bp total). Four resequenced individuals represent each population. A summary of the major problems with using race are as follows. First, imposing the classically defined race structure on populations causes us to estimate less diversity for the species as a whole than does allowing all populations to link back to a common base population in an unrestricted hierarchy. Second, using the race pattern causes us to estimate excess diversity within non-sub-Saharan African populations, but it estimates a deficit of diversity within sub-Saharan African populations. Third, the supposition of races forces all continental populations to diverge equally from a single ancestral node, whereas an unrestricted hierarchy places the basal split within Africa. Fourth, in the classical race framework, European and Asian populations diverge from African populations independently, but the unrestricted hierarchy shows that European and East Asian populations link together before either links to sub-Saharan Africans." He in fact makes the opposite conclusion than what Mikemikev's sockpuppets are saying!·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I have removed it though - since the paper doesn't mention or cite Edwards or mention the "fallacy". Its a good paper to include in Race and genetics though.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Biological anthropologist? They should have no authority on the matter.

I find it funny that those who are in support of this Lewontin's fallacy paper are real scientists like Dawkins and the author himself, Edwards, while those who are more in support of Lewontin's original (and misleading) idea are 'biological anthropologists' and social 'scientists'. I don't think social scientists should have any authority on a decidedly scientific topic and it is clear that their viewpoints are biased by their leftist leanings. RhymeNero (talk) 17:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Since you are clearly clueless, can I suggest you do a little research into what 'biological anthropologists' specialise in? Your viewpoint appears to be biased by sheer ignorance.... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:22, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Biological anthropologists are the very same people who 'proved' certain people were racially inferior by comparing skull sizes. You really think the discipline has improved to any extent from those days? It's still an art and not a science. RhymeNero (talk) 03:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's leave the talk page to discussing the content. Dawkins is a zoologist. Brace is an anthropologist. The objection rings hollow. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I can think of few more stupid arguments than this. What the hell do you think the science of biological anthropology specialises in? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Is that a joke? Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist, hey look up his wikipedia article, it's on the first goddamn line. Biological anthropology is anthropology at its heart, which is indeed nowhere near a science. Furthermore, the Witherspoon et al paper derives no scientific knowledge on the matter. It is just further criticism for the sake of criticism, and in view of NPOV I believe it should be rightfully removed. RhymeNero (talk) 03:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Brace is an evolutionary anthropologist, and he has a wikipedia article that says so too. Witherspoon is published in peer reviewed Genetics journals.NCBI Again, objection rings hollow. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

RhymeNero, I have reported you for violating WP:3RR, and given your level of ignorance, I can see no point in discussing the matter further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Looks like the PC brigade are doing a good job hushing up all those who dissent with the PC status quo. Since when is publishing in a Genetics journal make one a geneticist? It's mind blowing to think a person with only an arts knowledge of a scientific subject can make scientific statements when he lacks the scientific underpinnings to do so. It's like a history major trying to write a paper on particle physics. Once again I repeat that what the WItherspoon et all paper derives no scientific knowledge on the subject. Look at how he uses the word 'may'. That's not science, that's just suppositions. And you really want to compare the nobodies who came up with that paper with prestigious Cambridge researchers? That part of the article should be removed. RhymeNero (talk) 04:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

How many times do you have to be told to actually do a little research before spouting your ignorance? Biological anthropology is as much a science as any other branch of biology. Go away, study the subject, and then come back when you have an opinion worth considering. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:09, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Article title

The name of the scientific paper is Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. WP:TITLE clearly says "Do not enclose titles in quotes: Article titles that are quotes (or song titles, etc.) are not enclosed in quotation marks." This includes the names of scientific papers, which in standard prose should be enclosed in quotation marks. This was the reasoning for the move last year at [5]. The article title Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy or Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper) is still completely accurate and neutral and conforms to naming conventions. Reywas92^Talk 04:35, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I remember proposing the latter title. I guess the quotes are meant to delegitimize the paper or something. Welcome to the Race and Intelligence topic area. Silverseren^C 04:48, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Reywas92, please read the 'Move/Merge' discussion above. And WP:NPOV trumps 'naming conventions' every time. If you insist on starting another discussion on the same subject, there is nothing to prevent you - but please do a little research first. The move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy recently instigated by you was clearly contentious, and should not have been done without requesting input from others. As for the quote marks, I've got no strong opinions either way - but it needs to be discussed first.

Silver Seren, you're hardly helping matters here. Yes, this is a heated subject, but we don't have to assume that everything anyone does has an ulterior motive. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Except there is no reason not to have it at Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, which is the title of the paper and the common convention for other articles on academic papers and in line with WP:TITLE. And please don't tell me you're starting the NPOV thing again. The title of a paper cannot be POV, because POV is something that applies to inter-Wikipedia things. This was already pointed out in the AfD and the BLPN board. Silverseren^C 06:22, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

There are 'no reasons' other than the multiple ones already given in previous discussions (or maybe there are?). If you want to propose that the article be renamed, then do so - at which point I will ask that you explain your bizarre assertions regarding POV being confined to Wikipedia, and ask why you think that the outside world is devoid of such troublesome things as opinions... AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I did read the discussion above and I do not see anywhere that shows a consensus for the use of quotation marks. That discussion was whether the article title should be the title of the paper, Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, or a more generic Lewontin's argument, as well as whether there should be merges with related genetic articles. I do not "insist on starting another discussion on the same subject": I am not proposing any change in the content of this article's title or to revisit any of that debate. I only want to remove the quotation marks which are clearly against WP naming policy. If others agree, the parenthetical (scientfic paper) should also be removed because there is no disambiguation necessary and the normal name redirects here. There is absolutely no NPOV problem whatsoever if Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy is the actual, published name of the scientific paper. Reywas92^Talk 18:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

That is a matter of opinion. Other opinions differ, as should be obvious. If you want to propose a move, then do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved by Reywas92. --BDD (talk) 15:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

"Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy" (scientific paper) → Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper) – Per reasons already stated. Reywas92^Talk 13:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. If the issue is non-compliance with WP:MOS, shouldn't it be "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper)". The article title is, um, a title. The snag with that is that, per WP:ITALICTITLE it isn't technically possible to do this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

• Why the qualifier? It's hardly an ambiguous title without, is it? Support a move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. --BDD (talk) 21:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Why the qualifier? NPOV issues. See the talk page, the archives, the AfD discussions etc. If you want to propose a different move, please start a new move discussion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Huh? This is about a journal article, so it should have the same title as the article, shouldn't it? I'm not aware of an issue where we change the name of a creative or scholarly work to adhere to NPOV (cf. WP:POVTITLE). In Category:Academic journal articles, I only see two other entries with such qualifiers, and one is a redirect. And I'm not going to propose a different move. Alternate titles are proposed in RMs all the time, and sometimes accepted. --BDD (talk) 22:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you read all the previous discussions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:32, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes. You're fond of asking that, aren't you? You seem to misunderstand WP:NPOV as it relates to article titles. It is completely neutral on our part to call this Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, because that is the verbatim name of the scholarly article that is the subject of our article. Likewise, we can have an article called Hitler's Willing Executioners without endorsing any of the ideas expressed therein. The "(scientific paper)" qualifier would be necessary if another Wikipedia article had an identical or very similar title that could cause confusion, but that's not the case. --BDD (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

This suggestion is the most appropriate with Wikipedia Naming Conventions. Support for that move. The qualifier is not standard practice for academic articles in Wikipedia. SLawsonIII (talk) 00:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, per WP:POVTITLE and the precedent set in Category:Academic journal articles. Silverseren^C 22:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
• Support a move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. Current title is POV. Phlebas55 (talk) 10:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• Support as Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, no disambiguation needed.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 13:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Closing as move to Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy. Thanks, Reywas92^Talk 03:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Citations list useful for updating this article

You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Anthropology and Human Biology Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human genetics and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library system at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to other academic libraries in the same large metropolitan area) and have been researching these issues sporadically since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human genetics to edit them according to the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 15:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Lack of NPOV in "Lewontin's argument" section

User Aprock reverted this edit of mine, claiming it is "Out of context," when it is completely in context and refers directly to Lewontin's quote above:

Lewontin argued "Since such racial classification is now seen to be of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance either, no justification can be offered for its continuance."

Dawkins quotes exactly that sentence in his book and writes:

We can all happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes on forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn’t mean that race is of “virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance.” This is Edwards’s point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance.

To claim this is "out of context" is ridiculous and Asrock surely must have been joking. And there is a clear lack of neutrality in this section, saying that "This argument has been cited as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless" as if that is some universally accepted fact, when it is not. This in itself is weasel wording since there are clearly others who disagree with this conclusion, yet that is not mentioned at all. The wording must be changed into "This argument has been cited by some as evidence..." and then list the AAA as an example, then continue with "Others, such as Richard Dawkins disagree..."--Kobayashi245 (talk) 09:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll update the section according to the source sometime in the next week. aprock (talk) 14:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

That will be helpful. For other onlookers, I'll mention that it's a good idea to check how the one article by Edwards has been commented on in the kind of sources that Wikipedia identifies as reliable sources, especially major textbooks on human genetics and related disciplines. I have some of those sources at hand, to make sure that this article does indeed keep a neutral point of view that reflects mainstream, current scholarship. Other readers are welcome to look at the source list I keep in Wikipedia userspace for all of you to use. I invite your suggestions for other current secondary sources of good reputation on those topics to add to the source list. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 18:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to make a new section called "Criticism of Edwards' paper" at the bottom of the article and include any notable papers and citations there.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 18:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't speak for what other editors will do here, but what I observe in the actual professional literature is that most of Lewontin's main points are accepted and cited to his work as a correct description of what matters most about population stratification in human genetics. In other words, there hasn't been widespread agreement with the view of Edwards. If the article text reflects that, it really doesn't matter particularly what section organization the article has. The key thing is to make sure that this article and every one of the 6,823,599 articles on Wikipedia accurately reflect what reliable sources say--not just one article in one journal once upon a time, but mostly what the main reference books used by scholars in the discipline say. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Most of Lewontin's main points are well accepted and supported by consensus. This is correct. However the one statement by Lewontin that is highly controversial is the line:

"Since such racial classification is now seen to be of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance either, no justification can be offered for its continuance."

This statement by Lewontin is highly controversial in the scientific fields. Edwards being one of the major opponents of this view. There is widespread agreement of Edwards' view. The high rate of acceptance of biological races and perceived usefulness in certain scientific fields is proof positive of it. Now there is also widespread agreement for Lewontin's view as well. Remember, widespread doesn't mean consensus and there is no scientific consensus at this point for either Lewontin's position nor Edwards' position. Which makes it all the more important to give proper weight for the varying positions in this article. BlackHades (talk) 01:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources are needed for the claim, "This statement by Lewontin is highly controversial in the scientific fields". — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You already know the sources. Browse the section "Lewontin's argument and criticism" of Race and genetics again. The fact that there is no scientific consensus and constant disagreement in the scientific fields on this issue means it's a controversy. That's what the very definition of a controversy is. BlackHades (talk) 05:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources? Criticism is not the same thing as controversy or disagreement. Dawkins is quite clear that the mainstream view parallels Lewontin's. aprock (talk) 07:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Dawkins is quite clear that this point by Lewontin that race is biologically meaningless is incorrect. As well as any other geneticist/biologist that's not a complete farce. The mainstream view agrees with Edwards on this, not with Lewontin. The only "controversy" is that the term "race" is in dispute (semantics, really), with everybody preferring to use "populations" or "geographical groups," such as Cavalli-Sforza. But what's funny is that these "populations" are grouped in almost identical clusters as the traditional view on race prescribes.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 08:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

This is incorrect, both in what relates to Dawkins (who merely says that he agrees with Edwards that Race may be taxonomically significant in so far as putatively racial characteristics are highly correlate with eachother and with genetic makeup) and in what relates to the mainstream - you will not find many mainstream studies saying that Edwards argument vindicates race as a biological category, even if they agree that it is correct. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"Lewontin’s argument is an important one, and separates studying the geographic distribution of genetic variation in humans from searching for a biological basis to racial classification. His finding has been reproduced in study after study up through the present: two random individuals from any one group (which could be a continent or even a local population) are almost as different as any two random individuals from the entire world (see proportion of variation within populations in Table 20.1 and [20])." Ramachandran, Sohini; Tang, Hua; Gutenkunst, Ryan N.; Bustamante, Carlos D. (2010). "Chapter 20: Genetics and Genomics of Human Population Structure". In Speicher, Michael R.; Antonarakis, Stylianos E.; Motulsky, Arno G. (eds.). Vogel and Motulsky's Human Genetics: Problems and Approaches (PDF). Heidelberg: Springer Scientific. doi:10.1007/978-3-540-37654-5. ISBN 978-3-540-37653-8. Retrieved 29 October 2013. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help) -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 13:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"Earlier in this decade, Rick Kittles and I took an unusually critical look at FST (Long and Kittles 2003). We analyzed a unique data set composed of short tandem repeat (STR) allele frequencies for eight loci genotyped in both humans and chimpanzees (Deka et al. 1995). These data made it possible to see how FST played out when no one could dispute taxonomic and genetic significance. The answer surprised us. FST was pretty close to the canonical 0.15 shown so many times for human populations. In our analysis, FST was 0.12 for humans, but for humans and chimpanzees together, FST rose only to 0.18. Indeed, we found one locus, D13S122, where the size range of human and chimpanzee alleles hardly overlapped, yet FST equaled 0.15 (Figure 1)….

…Richard Lewontin’s dismissal of race may not have led to the wide popularity of FST in population biology, but it did galvanize anthropology. Lewontin confronted race by trying to show that classical racial groupings accounted for too little of the total diversity to be of any value. In retrospect, it is odd that Lewontin felt that 15% of variation among groups is small and even odder that others have concurred. Sewall Wright, the inventor of FST , believed the opposite. To Wright, FST = 0.05 or even less indicates considerable differences, and FST = 0.15 reflects moderately great differences (Wright 1951, 1978). Low values of FST reflect large gene frequency differences in replicate populations (Figure 2). In other words, these seemingly small values of FST permit allele frequencies to drift widely among populations. Unfortunately, Lewontin did not contest the larger issue, which is whether or not races are a good way to portray the pattern of gene frequency differences between populations." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20504197

Do you really want to play this game of each of us posting and citing a study that either sides with one or the other?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 19:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

What "side" does Long 2009 (quoted above) support? — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 20:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

He makes it clear that Lewontin's (and others') conclusion based on the low FST he calculated and upon which he based his (their) entire fallacious argument that genetic differences between races are biologically meaningless is exactly that: a fallacy. Lewontin's FST was "only" 0.15 between human races and Long's was "only" 0.12, but the FST between humans and chimpanzees is "only" 0.18. Everything over 0.05 indicates considerable differences according to the inventor of FST. Using Lewontin's fallacious argument: there is more variation within humans and chimpanzees than between them, therefore both humans and chimpanzees are social constructs.

By the way, the user Aprock has already been involved in this dispute at the WP:DRN a few months ago in the Race and genetics article where he was repeatedly deleting this very same Dawkins reference: [6] I would advise you to tread carefully not to go down that path again.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

An interesting interpretation to be sure, considering what the source actually says next, "Now, with more genetic data and more populations sampled, we are able to revisit the race problem with greater accuracy. Recently, my colleagues and I have tested the usefulness of race as a way to describe genetic differences among populations by contrasting the results of racial classification with those from generalized hierarchical models (Long et al. 2009). Race fails!" — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Aprock is an editor of impeccable integrity. (I generally agree with him even when he criticizes my edits.) Anyway, the key issue here is not a he-said, she-said argument based on just a few primary research studies, but what the scholars in the related disciplines distill as the current scholarly consensus when they write professional handbooks, textbooks, and other reliable sources. Anyone who wants to check the current secondary sources is welcome to look at the Anthropology and Human Biology Citations source list. (Anyone who desires to suggest additions to that source list is welcome to do that too.) In general, what I see in the sources is that Lewontin has prevailed over Edwards in pointing to the issue that has greater clinical and practical significance for human populations. His finding was a surprise, but it is well replicated, and widely accepted as an important fact. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Extended discussion of editor conduct
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
To be honest, I was surprised at the length Aprock was willing to go to block and impede important relevant content simply because it doesn't match his personal position. I made numerous good faith attempts to try to work with him on the Dawkins' content issue in Race and genetics and get his inputs. But it soon became very clear that the only outcome that he was willing to accept was nothing short of full deletion of Dawkins' content. When I filed the DRN request, the mediator made a request to everyone to try to argue for the other side to try to see the issue from their perspective. ArtifexMayhem participated in this, which I give him a lot of credit for. However, Aprock completely outright refused to. The issue then had to be moved to RfC at which point Aprock tried on numerous occasions to try to insert a POV line into the RfC to taint the results. This had to be reverted several times and EdJohnston had to issue Aprock a warning to stop. Despite Aprock's best efforts, the RfC came out overwhelmingly in favor of inclusion of Dawkins. Bygones are bygones, so I don't hold any grudge against Aprock and am more than willing to work with him, or anyone else, in the future. But I would hope that this experience highlights the importance of putting the integrity of the encyclopedia above one's own personal views. In regards to the recent changes attempted by Kobayashi245, I don't believe Dawkins needs to be inserted under the section "Lewontin's argument" as Dawkins already exists under "Edwards' critique" so it may be redundant to insert him again under "Lewontin's argument". The following line is problematic however: "This argument has been cited as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings." Kobayashi245 tried to insert the words "by some" into this line but the whole entire line is problematic. There appears to be a level of WP:OR with this line as it doesn't fully accurately represent the source. I would request the help of other editors to change this line to more accurately represent the position as expressed by Jonathan Marks in the cited source. BlackHades (talk) 21:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC) I'll ask you to strike the personal attacks presented with no evidence in an inappropriate forum. aprock (talk) 00:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC) It's not meant to be personal attack. Given that we are having a content dispute essentially identical with the previous content dispute at Race and genetics, the background of what happened in that content dispute is highly relevant here. One that you were highly involved in. It's brought up in order to avoid having the exact same situation repeat here. Given the previous history, Kobayashi245 brought up a justifiable concern. BlackHades (talk) 01:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC) I'll again ask you to strike. Your unsubstantiated and baseless accusations do not belong on this talk page. aprock (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC) Your claim that it is unsubstantiated and baseless is unsubstantiated and baseless. You did fight tooth and nail to keep Dawkins out of Race and genetics. When presented several times with the opportunity to edit the Dawkins' content in question the way you personally see fit, you did refuse each and every time. During DRN you did refuse to participate in the mediator's request. When the results of RfC at Race and genetics was approaching WP:SNOW, you did make a major change to the RfC. You did receive a message from EdJohnston that you may get blocked for your attempts to edit the RfC. The results of the RfC did come in with overwhelming conviction against your position. None of these are personal attacks. This is simply precisely what happened. If I have to present diffs I will but we all know what happened. I can't see how you can deny any of the above. If you really want to strike it, go ahead and strike it. It won't change what happened. BlackHades (talk) 03:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC) BlackHades, the only relevance this has to the discussion now is as an attempt to poison the well. If you think there's an issue relating to an editor's conduct, go to WP:RFCU or WP:ANI, or frankly anywhere else other than an article talk page. This page is for discussing changes to the article, not to lambast other editors for behavior on other articles. Please stop.   — Jess· Δ♥ 04:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC) I'm already done. Let's all move on. BlackHades (talk) 04:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC) Ok then. I'm going to hat this side topic in the hopes that it will help not to detract from the main topic.   — Jess· Δ♥ 05:25, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

@ArtifexMayhem & WeijiBaikeBianji (others can skip to Proposal 1):

Race "fails" in their other 2009 study (Human DNA Sequences: More Variation and Less Race, Long et al. (2009)) that they are referencing because they show that (as per the title) there is human variation beyond the racial level (not surprising, since most of the genome has nothing to do with race). Their study does not refute at all the structure analysis of racial groups like those of Edwards or Rosenberg. They actually affirm those studies, but basically because they don't like the results, which they think are "paradoxical" to their conclusions, they invent an entirely different model where Edwards' and Rosenberg's results fit in the way they like: "We must now judge taxonomic significance on a different basis than the component of diversity between populations." Which is just nonsensical.

Rosenberg and colleagues analyzed 377 short tandem repeat (STR) DNA loci in a sample of 1,052 people (Rosenberg et al., 2002). These individuals came from 52 populations with locations throughout the world. This study found that the component of allelic diversity between major geographic regions accounted for only 4.3% of the total. However, the study's findings present us with a paradox because it was possible to use these genotypes to classify individuals back to their regional populations. Others have argued that Rosenberg and colleagues should have measured STR diversity using a different statistic, and offer that their favored statistic yields a higher component of diversity between major geographic regions, that is, 9.2% (Excoffier and Hamilton, 2003). However, neither 4.3% nor 9.2% is very different from Lewontin's 6.3%, and the high classification success in Rosenberg's study is counter intuitive in comparison with all such measures of diversity. We must now judge taxonomic significance on a different basis than the component of diversity between populations.

[...]

Some biologists define races based purely on correct assignment of individuals to groups. The best known version of this approach is the seventy-five percent correct classification rule (Amadon, 1949; Mayr, 1969). Edwards has explained how accurate classification will be achieved when multiple polymorphic loci are considered (Edwards, 2003), and we see empirically that there are applications to human data that satisfy the seventy-five percent criterion (Rosenberg et al., 2002; Bamshad et al., 2003).

All that said, this has nothing to do with the original topic, which was about changing the biased and non-neutral wording in the mentioned section. WeijiBaikeBianji decided to for whatever reason cite part of a paper that is merely repeating Lewontin's fallacy, namely that of the calculated FST for a single loci upon which he based his conclusion. That this is a fallacy has been demonstrated by Edwards who showed that multiple loci must be used, and Weiji's source affirms Edwards' findings in the next page:

While it is an undeniable mathematical fact that the amount of genetic variation observed within groups is much larger than the differences among groups, this does not mean that genetic data do not contain discernable information regarding genetic ancestry. In fact, we will see that minute differences in allele frequencies across loci when compounded across the whole of the genome actually contain a great deal of information regarding ancestry. Given current technology, for example, it is feasible to accurately identify individuals from populations that differ by as little as 1% in FST if enough markers are genotyped. (See discussion below for a detailed treatment of the subject.) It is also important to note that when one looks at correlations in allelic variation across loci, self-identified populations and populations inferred for human subjects using genetic data correspond closely [12, 53] .

It is obvious that race doesn't "make sense" when one doesn't use enough markers, this is identical to having a single jigsaw puzzle and trying to see the bigger picture. You can't. But once you have enough puzzles, the picture is clear, and so is race. There is not a single biologist in this world who will deny this fact, that when enough markers are genotyped, individuals can be classified into geographical groups, and this with an almost 100% accuracy, not merely the 75% low limit. The only dispute is whether one should call those groups a "race" or something else, which is entirely semantics. In response to Weiji's random citation, I cited a random study which shows that Lewontin's fallacious use of low FST to claim that race is biologically insignificant is exactly that: a fallacy. "Only" 0.12 FST in humans, "only" 0.18 FST between humans and chimpanzees, with the inventor of FST claiming anything over 0.05 FST indicates "considerable differences." There is no interpretation needed for the above, the numbers speak for themselves. And I will not continue this offtopic debate no more, but with what I initially proposed, namely changing the wording of the section.

So, Proposal 1:

Change this:

This argument has been cited as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings.[7] One example being the "Statement on 'Race'" published by the American Anthropological Association in 1998 which rejected the existence of races as unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups.[8]

To this (changes only emphasized in bold; not part of the actual edit):

This argument has been cited by some as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings.[7] One example being the "Statement on 'Race'" published by the American Anthropological Association in 1998 which rejected the existence of races as unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups.[8] Others, such as Richard Dawkins, have disagreed with Lewontin's assertion that racial categories are biologically meaningless[9].

The reason being that the current sentence claims this argument has been cited by everyone as evidence, and then citing the AAA as an example. In reality, this argument has not been cited by everyone as evidence, and there is a number of people in the scientific community who are in no way a minority or WP:FRINGE who disagree with the argument. One example is Richard Dawkins, a WP:V source, and thus the sentence must be changed to include both viewpoints, namely that some use this argument as evidence, one example being the AAA, and others don't, one example Richard Dawkins. Omitting this in fact goes against WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. The article can only be improved and the neutrality issue resolved by mentioning both viewpoints. User Aprock contested that the claim by Dawkins is "out of context" which I have showed it is not: Dawkins cites exactly the same quote of Lewontin that is mentioned in the article and upon which the disputed text is based on, and he arguments directly against that quote. Absolutely nothing is "out of context," and any interpretation of the Dawkins' book or text that it is or that "Dawkins largely agrees with Lewontin" is WP:OR and does not constitute a valid argument. BlackHades said that Dawkins needs not be mentioned under "Lewontin's argument" because he is already mentioned in "Edwards' critique," but said that the sentence is problematic, which is 100% correct. One way to fix this issue is like I propose, include Dawkins into the sentence, so that both viewpoints are expressed, the other is making an entirely new sentence, by excluding any examples, which means drop both AAA and Dawkins. It's logical which one is simpler, but if you insist, we can make a new neutral sentence together.

Proposal 2:

In "Edwards' critique" section, change this:

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins agreed with Edwards' view and summarized it as "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."[4]

To this (changes only emphasized in bold; not part of the actual edit):

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins agreed with Edwards' view and summarized it as "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance." Dawkins also wrote of Lewontin that he is "known for the strength of his political convictions and his weakness for dragging them into science at every possible opportunity."[4]

The reason being that it is a relevant critique of Lewontin and how his political convictions might have influenced his work. If there is big opposition to this, along the lines of "this is a critique of Lewontin, not Edwards," fine, I will then include this quote in the "ref name=Dawkins" template, where it will be relevant in Proposal 1, unless both AAA and Dawkins examples are dropped:

R. C. Lewontin is an equally distinguished Cambridge (Mass.) geneticist, known for the strength of his political convictions and his weakness for dragging them into science at every possible opportunity. Lewontin's view of race has become near-universal orthodoxy in scientific circles. […] We can all happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes on forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn't mean that race is of "virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance." This is Edwards's point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance.

Proposal 3:

Change this:

Biological anthropologists such as Jonathan Marks and philosophers Jonathan Kaplan and Rasmus Winther have argued that while Edwards's argument is correct it does not invalidate Lewontin's original argument, because racial groups being genetically distinct on average does not mean that racial groups are the most basic biological divisions of the world's population. Nor does it mean that races are not social constructs as is the prevailing view among anthropologists and social scientists, because the particular genetic differences that correspond to races only become salient when racial categories take on social importance. According to this view Edwards and Lewontin are therefore both correct.[14][15][16]

Similarly, Marks agrees with Edwards [...]

To this (changes only emphasized in bold; not part of the actual edit):

Philosophers Jonathan Kaplan and Rasmus Winther have argued that while Edwards's argument is correct it does not invalidate Lewontin's original argument, because racial groups being genetically distinct on average does not mean that racial groups are the most basic biological divisions of the world's population. Nor does it mean that races are not social constructs as is the prevailing view among anthropologists and social scientists, because the particular genetic differences that correspond to races only become salient when racial categories take on social importance. From this sociological perspective, Edwards and Lewontin are therefore both correct.[14][15][16]

Similarly, biological anthropologist Jonathan Marks agrees with Edwards […]

The reason being that the current text presents the opinions of two philosophers who have argued that both Lewontin and Edwards are correct entirely from a philosophical/sociological point of view together with an anthropologist who has made no such claim in the source provided, which is clearly an attempt to make the opinions of two philosophers look more scientific by referencing an anthropologist before them. This is a violation of Wikipedia's guideline of manual of style's words to watch, as it is a form of WP:WEASEL. Therefore, Jonathan Marks must be mentioned in the next paragraph, the one already discussing his paper, not in the paragraph discussing an opinion of two philosophers. Likewise, the wording of "According to this view" has to be expanded on and explained that this is merely a philosophical/sociological opinion/perspective, not a scientific fact. Although, a better proposal would be entirely dropping the opinions of two philosophers, which are entirely irrelevant. It's no different than a linguist with no mathematical background giving his opinion on the theory of relativity.

Present your argumentative objections for each proposal, preferably in a point-by-point basis, by which I mean starting with Proposal 1 and concluding with Proposal 3. Proposal 1 and 3 are clear violations of Wikipedia's policies, specifically WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and go against the guidelines, specifically WP:W2W, so simply saying there is "no consensus" for the change (there are some editors who think this is a real argument) and not giving any valid arguments is irrelevant (WP:DRNC) and is a sign that the editor simply WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, thus if there will be no valid objections, I will boldly edit my proposal/s that have no argumentative objections.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 11:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Forgot to address this by WeijiBaikeBianji: "but what the scholars in the related disciplines distill as the current scholarly consensus when they write professional handbooks, textbooks, and other reliable sources. [...] In general, what I see in the sources is that Lewontin has prevailed over Edwards in pointing to the issue that has greater clinical and practical significance for human populations." There is no "scholarly consensus" and you should stop pretending there is. See the surveys at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28human_classification%29#Current_views_across_disciplines. Even if 100% of American researchers agreed with Lewontin (which is not even remotely true), there is still China and Russia where the concept of race is very much regarded as fact, and the USA is no authority on this matter, so I suggest you just drop this and accept that there is no consensus, because there isn't. --Kobayashi245 (talk) 13:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

WeijiBaikeBianji is correct, we must go with what reliable sources have to say on the matter. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Did you read what I linked to? There is no consensus among the reliable sources WHATSOEVER. Now stop with this silly denying game and address my proposals please.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 19:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It is disingenious to keep bringing up the fact that survey's show that Russian and Chinese researchers hold on to a belief in race. Untill such a time that they begin producing literature that engages with the global body of literature on race and refute the arguments of those scholars who have established the consensus that the concept has no vaild basis in genetic diversity then they do not exist for scientific purposes. We also don't use the fact that apparently some north Korean scientists believe in Unicorns to argue that there is scientific disagreement about their existence. Scholars may believe a lot of weid things, but it is the status in the literature and not in their private beliefs that determine what is a mainstream view.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned Russia and China just as an unnecessary example, because the surveys show that even among US researchers, there is clearly no consensus, so let's all stop pretending there is. Also, it would be funny if ru.wikipedia, zh.wikipedia and en.wikipedia all had opposing views on race, stemming from the fact that Russian and Chinese wikipedians probably use their native scientific sources to back up their facts. So no, it is not disingenuous at all, but what is disingenuous is claiming there is clear consensus, when there is not.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 20:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The fallacy that there is "consensus that the [race] concept has no valid basis" needs to stop. It is disingenuous to keep repeating this fallacy. Here's what high quality secondary sources actually has to say on this issue:

"It would appear that two conclusions strongly emerge from research on the status of the race concept in biological anthropology: there is still no consensus on the race concept and there are significant national/regional differences in anthropologists’ attitudes towards ‘race’...Research shows that there is as yet no consensus on the status of the concept among biological anthropologists."

Štrkalj, Goran. "The status of the race concept in contemporary biological anthropology: A review." Anthropologist 9.1 (2007): 73-78.

It is not just Russian or Chinese researchers that accepts the concept of biological races. The acceptance of biological races and its perceived usefulness is the clear majority in certain scientific fields in the US. Particularly in scientific fields related to forensic anthropology, disease susceptibility, drug metabolism. Lieberman's poll showed a clear majority of biologists accepted the concept of biological races. In the fields of physical and cultural anthropologists, which are the fields that reject the race concept more so than any other scientific field, a full quarter of them still accept the race concept. So even among physical and cultural anthropologists there is no consensus, let alone all the other scientific fields where the concept is readily much more accepted. BlackHades (talk) 21:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Goran Strkalj is not among the most well regarded sources on this issue. Try finding some actual mainstream sources and see what they say instead of just parading the same tired "race realist" sources over and over. Furthermore you are misrepresenting Strakalj's conclusion (just as other "race realists" have tended to do) he does not argue that the lack of consensus is due toactual scientific disagreements, but rather due to lack of access to the latest literature in some parts of the world. The usefulness of Race is the majority view in certain fields in the US that is correct, but those happen to be applied fields that depend on the practical value of the concept and are relatively unconcerned with the theoretical problems that have lead a majority of scholars in those fields that specialize in human variation and the race concept. The value of the concept as a heuristic to applied fields does not support the value of the concept which has been rejected on theoretical grounds anymore than the fact that Newtonian physics is adequate for most practical purposes is a valid argument against quantum physics or relativity. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

A meta analysis on the overview of the race concept in the scientific field that's been peer reviewed and published in the journal Anthropologist is not an authoritative or mainstream source? Seriously? Would you prefer a meta analysis by Lieberman instead? (Bold emphasis mine)

Lieberman, Leonard, et al. "The race concept in six regions: variation without consensus." Collegium antropologicum 28.2 (2004): 907-921.

You're not being accurate with Strakalj's conclusions either. He lists many reasons for differences in the acceptance rate of the concept of biological races. Including reasons linked to social factors rather than scientific ones that exist in the US. However, the reasons why are irrelevant to the earlier point. There is no scientific consensus on the race concept. Whatever the reasons why this is doesn't change this particular fact one bit. BlackHades (talk) 22:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Maunus, plenty of reliable mainstream sources are posted in the other Wikipedia article I linked to. Please stop this ridiculous and childish nonsense. You yourself just accepted that the view that race is biologically significant, and even a majority view in certain fields, especially by geneticists and biologists which matter the most, not physical or cultural anthropologists, the latter of which are even irrelevant. By the way, your analogy is wrong, it is those who deny the biological significance of race that are Newtonian physicists, and the biologists and geneticists who are well aware of the existence of race who are quantum physicists. So, for the last time, let's stop these silly games: there is no consensus.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 22:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

No, it is not the majority view among geneticists and biologists, but among physicians and forensic anthropologists both of whom matter very little. Try to show some mainstream textbooks in genetics or biology. They generally do not suggest that the structure of human variation supports the concept of biological races, although often they do mention that it is controversial + then they usually suggest that it is better to talk about ancestry and about populations. My analogy is not wrong, it is in fact the point that Strkalj is making.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Maunus, please go read the section of the article I linked to. I really do not want to clog this talk even more with quotations that prove you wrong. So let's conclude this: there is no consensus. Yes or no?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no consensus across disciplines, no. There is a very solid consensus in physical anthropology, which happens to be the discipline that has the largest amount of expertise on this topic. There is no consensus in genetics and biology. In forensics and medicine there is a majority who considers it to be a useful concept.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Even in physical anthropology. It is true that there is a very strong majority in physical anthropology that reject the concept of biological races. However it is still not a consensus even in this field. Lieberman showed a quarter of physical anthropologists in the US accepted the race concept. This rate is even higher everywhere else in the world. But even if we used just the US figure, 25% is a minority but it is a solid minority. So while there is a very strong majority in physical anthropology that reject the concept of biological races, it is definitely not a consensus. BlackHades (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Three quarters is of course a consensus. Also the survey of opinions does not matter what matters is the consensus in the literature, because that shows the state of the science. There is not a quarter of articles on published on race in physical anthropology that considers race to be a valid biological category. The quarter of American physical anthrpologists who reputedly hold this view are not a part of the academic dialogue, just like the Russian and Chinese colleagues aren't. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay, then we will change the sentence to say that race is a biologically meaningless concept according to physical and cultural anthropologists, but then list the other fields that claim otherwise.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The only two fields where there is a substantial agreement that race is useful (not necessarily because it is biologically valid) are medicine and forensic anthropology.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

False, see the "other fields" section. 16% of biologists disagree with race. Of course you realize that once we change the sentence to list all these fields, this just opens the door to include all these surveys that show otherwise, which I will definitely include. So, again, do we change the sentence to include all fields and their positions, or do we simply change the sentence to "some" and then list the AAA as one example, and then Dawkins as the other?--Kobayashi245 (talk) 23:37, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see your source for that figure. I dont think AAA vs. Dawkins is a very informative way of posing the disagreement. We could probably make a separate article on the surveys. But as I say Surveys are not a good way of building the weighting in a wikipedia article, it shoud be built on the consensus in the literature. If you can show some review articles by respected scholars in esteemed journals, or some well regarded textbooks that show support for race then that would be a better measure.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Ah its the 1985 poll. That certainly doesn't support any claim about consensus 30 years later.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Without playing your silly game no more, I'll just skip to the point and suggest a new sentence:

"This argument has been cited by most American physical and cultural anthropologists as evidence that racial categories are biologically meaningless, and that behavioral differences between groups cannot have any genetic underpinnings. Physical and cultural anthropologists in other countries, most notably Russia and China are mostly of the opposite opinion, and believe racial categories are biologically meaningful. Likewise, the majority of forensic anthropologists, biologists and developmental psychologists believe race is biologically meaningful."--Kobayashi245 (talk) 00:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, for the reasons stated above that is not a useful wording. The dated opinion surveys are not relevant for a general overview of the status of race, and neither are the opinions of Russian and Chinese anthropologists in surveys. These details can be provided with sufficient context in the body of the article in a dedicated section. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:28, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Unless you have newer statistics, those still apply and are valid, unless there is some scientific timelimit I'm not aware of, when something becomes irrelevant? Is it 5 years, or 10, 15...? You can always neutralize the sentence by adding "according to the 1985 survey..." And it is very much relevant to mention that Russian and Chinese physical anthropologists largely disagree with the opinions of American and Canadian anthropologists, because America is not the center of the world, and neither is it the authority on race. The original (current) sentence lacks neutrality and is giving all the weight on the side of American anthropologists, this even though every single source explicitly says there is no consensus. The neutrality issue will be solved once both opinions are expressed. I did my best and wrote two (what I believe) are neutral texts to replace the current one, but you disagree with both of them. So you propose one, I'm going to bed, and I'll give my opinion tomorrow.--Kobayashi245 (talk) 00:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

A thirty years old opinion poll has historical value at best. Just like we dont use 1984 polls to claim that 58% of Americans prefer Ronald Reagan for president. All studies have shown decreasing acceptance of race since the mid 60s. Opinion polls of scientists are not relevant for a general description of a topic, published sources reviewing the status of the field are.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

=== Dawkins, mainstream, and taxonomy Above we have a discussion of how to treat Dawkin's views on Lewonin's, within which is an extended discussion of the validity of race. Strangely, Dawkins' himself, in the same source that editors are referencing, clearly states that Lewontin's view is the mainstream one. It seems difficult to argue both sides here. Pick one:

• Dawkins' is a reliable source here and 1) race is "taxonomically" significant and 2) Lewontin's view is mainstream:
• Dawkins' is not a reliable source and shouldn't be included.

Which is it? Do we use Dawkins', who clearly states the mainstream view, or not? aprock (talk) 01:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)