Talk:Race and intelligence

Global variation of IQ scores

I've removed the Global variation of IQ scores section. My rationale is that this section is off topic because it deals with differences in IQ scores between nations, not "races". Please discuss any concerns here. –dlthewave ☎ 03:31, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I reverted. I haven't seen you actually wanting to improve the article. You seem to just want to destroy it. But if some editors who are not in favor of destroying this article think you did a good thing, I would abide by that no problem. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:44, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

The content if off-topic. Separately, I haven't seen you actually wanting to improve the article. You seem to just want to destroy it. is contrary to Wikipedia:Focus on content not contributor. I recommend self-reverting. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:51, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

This guy and 123 think the way to help this article is to remove 5000kb chunks from it, one chunk after another. I just call em as I see em. I don't remember you. You may not be aware of these shenanigans. Check the history if you're interested. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:57, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

If you have an issue with a particular contributor's editing, the place to raise these concerns is on their user talk page or at an appropriate admin noticeboard. This is not what article talk pages are for. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:22, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I support Peregrine Fisher's restoration of this content. dlthewave, it's not off topic, as it's talking about "patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race". There are clearly meaningful differences in racial/ethnic composition between many of the world's nations. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:52, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

If you were to look at the sources for that section, you would see that a large portion of them discuss nationality and race in combination with one another. There's a significant amount of overlap between the source literature about race and intelligence and the source literature about international difference in test scores, which is why it's appropriate for international differences to be mentioned in this article. 2600:1004:B14C:A0C6:64AD:3A01:C6B4:B236 (talk) 03:53, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

If that us truly the case, then perhaps you would be willing to rewrite the section with a focus on the "Race and Intelligence" topic. The section should not be retained in its current state. –dlthewave ☎ 04:06, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

It's already focused on the topic: "patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race". Jweiss11 (talk) 04:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

similar to those associated with race -- according to whom? --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:22, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

K.e.coffman, anyone who uses common sense and/or skims the demographic summaries of the various nations around the world? Jweiss11 (talk) 05:45, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Thats a very bad argument. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 06:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

There are three reasons for me to not rewrite that section.

1: The article is semi-protected, so only registered users can edit it.

2: Even if it weren't, I'd like to wait until the DRV is resolved before putting a lot of effort into improving the article, because our efforts might be a waste of time if the article ends up being deleted.

3: It isn't entirely clear what it is that you're objecting to in that section. The pattern of international differences in test scores is that the countries with the highest average scores are Japan, China, Singapore, and South Korea, and the countries with the lowest average scores tend to be countries in sub-Saharan Africa, with European countries in between. This mirrors the pattern of average test scores among Asian Americans, white Americans and African Americans in the United States. This is what the article means when it refers to "patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race". Are you suggesting the section should be more specific that the average scores of nations tend to align with the average scores of populations with ancestry from those regions, and therefore the question of the causes of both types of difference are part of the same debate? 2600:1004:B14C:A0C6:64AD:3A01:C6B4:B236 (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

The sources were unreliable and the section was undue. Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:19, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Wasn't it just explained to you a few days ago that you shouldn't be attempting to strip massive amounts of content out of the article while the DRV is underway? The previous time you tried to do this was when the article was at AFD rather than DRV, but the same principle applies. 2600:1004:B10A:3B8D:688D:3BC5:92A1:5CF6 (talk) 10:58, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

That's not a rule. –dlthewave ☎ 13:17, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@Oldstone James: You've reinstated this section without discussing it [1]. Please join us here. –dlthewave ☎ 15:08, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

As per Jweiss and 2600, I think the relevance of this section to the article is pretty clear. Also, as per my edsum, some geographical areas, such as sub-Saharan Africa, are populated predominantly by members of one race, so this section would be relevant even if "patterns of difference between continental populations" weren't "similar to those associated with race". ^{O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲}_{J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅} 15:11, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, several editors have asserted that there is clear or self-evident connection between geography and race, but no source has been provided. The section only discusses geography not race. Do you have a reliable source that supports this? –dlthewave ☎ 15:22, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

This is discussed in chapter 11 of Earl Hunt's textbook. With respect to the higher average scores of both East Asian countries and Asian Americans, Hunt says "The US results are mirrored on the international scene" (page 421). With respect to the data from African Americans and from countries in sub-Saharan Africa, Hunt presents these two lines of data several pages apart, but when discussing the worldwide distribution of scores from all countries, he mentions on page 439 that one hypothesis to explain these differences is due to "differences in the racial composition of the national and regional population". Hunt argues that this hypothesis "cannot be ruled out", but also that it "goes far beyond the data". Then on pages 446-447, he argues that the most important factor in causing the lower average scores of both Africans Americans and countries in sub-Saharan Africa is their limited access to schooling and social opportunities. This source is a good example of how in academic sources about race and intelligence, the data from international comparisons and from ethnic groups within a country often are presented together, with the author suggesting that both types of difference have similar causes.

Nicholas Mackintosh takes a similar approach with the section of his own textbook titled "National or ethnic differences", which discusses both types of difference in combination. I've focused on Earl Hunt's book because it seems to be more highly-regarded of the two sources, but they are both high-quality secondary sources. Both of these sources bring up international differences in the context of discussing race and intelligence, so the Wikipedia article should reflect the source literature in this regard. 2600:1004:B15D:697F:F1AB:F59B:5A3B:897D (talk) 17:13, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

By the way, this material has been in the article for something like a decade. Before removing it and demanding that others provide sources to justify its inclusion, why can't you look in the talk page archives to see whether a similar objection has been made before? It probably has been, and it's disrespectful of others' time for you to demand that others re-explain things that probably have been explained on this page many times over. 2600:1004:B15D:697F:F1AB:F59B:5A3B:897D (talk) 17:24, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. From your description, using Hunt to support a connection between race, nation and intelligence is a shaky proposition to say the least; it seems that these are similar phenomena but not connected phenomena. In other words, just because the claimed racial and regional differences are thought to have similar environmental causes doesn't mean that they're associated with each other. Even if we did have solid sourcing to support this section, we would need to rewrite it to clarify the relevance to this topic. In its current state it is off-topic and should, in my opinion, be removed until someone rewrites it. By the way an unregistered user can suggest changes/rewrites on the talk page as you've been doing or register an account to directly edit the semi-protected page. –dlthewave ☎ 18:18, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I see we've found the person who didn't look through the archives before posting. The relevance of Global variation of IQ scores to this article doesn't seem to have been discussed in detail and certainly hasn't been explained many times over.

Demanding that others justify their claims is indeed how things work around here. The onus to provide sourcing rests on those wishing to include the content. –dlthewave ☎ 18:18, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

By "associated" or "connected", I assume you mean whether or not there is a direct causal relation between the two types of difference, but that isn't relevant to whether the section belongs in the article. On a topic as controversial as race and intelligence, we can't base the article structure on a judgment about what causal relations do or don't exist, because there is a vast amount of disagreement among sources in that area. What we should do is try to present the topic in a similar way to how it's presented in secondary sources. As I just explained, two of the most important secondary sources about race and intelligence include international differences as part of their discussion, so that should be an adequate reason for the Wikipedia article to also include a discussion of those differences.

However, if you need a source that argues there is a causal relationship between race differences and international differences, Rindermann's Cognitive Capitalism makes that argument on pages 287-323. 2600:1004:B15D:697F:F1AB:F59B:5A3B:897D (talk) 19:09, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Heiner Rindermann is certainly not a reliable secondary source, and neither was Earl Hunt. Making the implication that national differences are the same or similar to racial differences is improper synthesis and can't be included in the article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:25, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Hunt's and Rindermann's books both were published by Cambridge University Press. Please remember what multiple other editors have told you about your WP:IDHT attitude: you have been making this argument for the past two months both here and at the RS noticeboard, and in both places no one else has agreed with you that these aren't reliable sources. The reason I'm replying to you is that I don't want you to think my lack of response gives you license to continue edit warring to remove the section, but I'm not going to re-explain this principle about sources to you yet again. 2600:1004:B15D:697F:F1AB:F59B:5A3B:897D (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

It is not the publisher in this case that is unreliable, it is the authors themselves. Wikipedia policy excludes using unreliable authors as sources for content. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:51, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources for global variation in IQs (national IQs). Even some people who aren't intelligence researchers have been publishing on this. For instance, 2018 The Lancet paper, or the World Bank in 2019 (only a preprint), or this review about national IQs in the journal International Journal of Developmental Disabilities (2017). A few economists have been using national IQ data for over a decade, e.g. this 2006 paper, or this 2014 follow up. One can easily find many more. AndewNguyen (talk) 13:37, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

To summarize the discussion:

• Keep: Editor wants to destroy the article; continental and racial differences are "similar"; sources discuss race and nationality; the connection between race and nationality is "common sense; mass content removal shouldn't take place during DRV; some geographical areas are predominantly populated by a single race; content has been in the article for a decade; editor should have checked talk archives for prior discussion before removing; plenty of sources exist.

• Remove: Off topic (discusses nationality, not IQ); content is undue and supported by unreliable sources.

Many of the "keep" points are focused on editor behavior or cite nonexistent policies. Although the race-nationality connection is apparently discussed by several sources, the degree to which they actually make the connection and the reliability of the sources are questionable. Most importantly, the section in its current state does not actually discuss the relevance to this topic and nobody is willing to rewrite it. Based on this assessment, I will remove the section and provide a link to the current version in case anyone would like to rewrite it in the future. –dlthewave ☎ 03:28, 26 February 2020 (UTC) Removed section can be found here. –dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

• If this section is rewritten, it would need to cover not just the global variation in IQ scores but also its relationship to racial variation in IQ scores. For example, if we're going to discuss Lynn and Vanhanen, we should mention their claim that national differences in intelligence are largely due to racial composition, along with mainstream critical analysis of this claim. This should preferably come from a secondary source that discusses the overall debate.

Any rewrite would also need to comply with WP:WEIGHT. Keep in mind that even if a source is considered "reliable", we still need to determine whether or not the viewpoint is prominent enough for inclusion here. Being published in a reliable source does not automatically merit inclusion.

I'm happy to discuss and assist with a potential rewrite, however we all need to be open to the possibility that the connection between race, nationality and intelligence may not have sufficient RS coverage to support a section. If this is the case then removal may be appropriate. –dlthewave ☎ 01:31, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: You've restored the contested content despite the unaddressed concerns of other editors in this discussion. The only reason you've given was that it included the phrase "... patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race", however this sentence was unsourced. Please join this discussion to help address the concerns that have been raised. –dlthewave ☎ 04:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

"patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race" is WP:BLUESKY. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:07, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

It's not. You've been asked to provide a source and have not done so. Which "demographic studies" were you referring to above, and which source connects them to race and intelligence so that we can include it without using WP:SYNTH? –dlthewave ☎ 04:12, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Do you want a source that shows that most citizens of sub-Saharan African nations are black or that most citizens of East Asian nations are East Asian? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:14, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

We need a source that discusses the relationship between nationality, race and intelligence, and the section needs to be rewritten to reflect it. We also need a source for the statement "patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race" if it is to be included, you can't keep citing BLUESKY and your insistence on doing so is becoming disruptive. –dlthewave ☎ 04:25, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

How many times have I cited BLUESKY? Your entire approach on this topic is hostile and disruptive. Please also stop leaving passive-aggressive templates on my talk page. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 05:44, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I will not engage with comments about my behavior on this talk page. Please focus on the content being discussed. –dlthewave ☎ 13:20, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

If you won't engage with comments about behavior on this talk page, then why did you introduce discussion about mine ("your insistence on doing so is becoming disruptive")? Jweiss11 (talk) 13:32, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see how that is BLUESKY. If race is a social construct, are you saying that these patterns in IQ follow what would be expected based on a social construct? In addition, of course, "a number of studies" isn't BLUESKY - it's a specific factual claim that, without support, would run into WP:WEASEL concerns. Guettarda (talk) 14:01, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Guettarda, what I'm arguing is BLUESKY is the claim that residents of sub-Saharan Africa are overwhelming black and that residents of East Asia are overwhelmingly East Asian. I don't think race and ethnicity are entirely is social constructs, as there is a genetic basis to them. I also think that the IQ testing differences we see between ethnic and racial groups are largely social/cultural. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:21, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: residents of sub-Saharan Africa are overwhelming black and that residents of East Asia are overwhelmingly East Asian: Sure, if you define the "black race" as "the race of most people who live in sub-Saharan Africa", then sure, most people who live in sub-Saharan Africa are black. But that doesn't make biological race real. Human variation is clinal, it's continuous. There's no point where you say that everyone up to this village is black, but starting from the next village on, the people are white (which is what you'd expect if biological race was real). Race "exists" where people from distant parts of the continuum are thrown together, and people construct ideas about us and them.

It doesn't matter whether biological races are real, or variation is clinal and race is a social construct. What matters is that you can't make claims one way or the other and say they don't need sourcing per BLUESKY. (As for ethnicity, ethnic groups often include completely unrelated people who are thrown together and united by cultural factors. Ethnogenesis is about the development of cultural cohesion within groups. There doesn't have to be any genetic relatedness.) Guettarda (talk) 05:16, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Both of you, please see my comments below suggesting that this sentence could be re-worded and cited to Rindermann's book. While there are other sources that could potentially be used such as Earl Hunt's textbook, I think the Rindermann source is the best option, because its discussion about the relation between ethnicity and international differences is all in one place, rather than in several parts throughout the chapter as it is in Hunt's book.

If anyone is interested in compromising here, restoring the section with the first sentence cited to Rindermann is a potential compromise between those who don't want the sentence to remain unsourced, and those who object to this section of the article being removed entirely. 2600:1004:B12C:3F1:5D:BFBB:13A7:BC8F (talk) 05:51, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

"We need a source that discusses the relationship between nationality, race and intelligence" Dlthewave, I listed five such sources in the discussion below. When I asked you what you specifically expected to be changed about this section before it could be restored, your response was evasive. I asked you that question twice, first here and again here, and you did not answer it either time.

Despite that, you subsequently claimed "I explained what should be changed in the Global variation of IQ scores discussion above." It is disruptive of you to claim that while simultaneously refusing to answer my question about this exact thing. This looks a lot like a deliberate attempt to avoid being specific about what you want changed in that section. 2600:1004:B12D:741A:C15B:1789:8738:CD03 (talk) 14:14, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the "I explained" comment was meant to direct you to [this explanation] which I had posted minutes earlier. As I've also explained, we need to not only show that sources exist but also rewrite the section to reflect them. Additionally, I would suggest that you discuss with editors who have raised objections to the sources provided. –dlthewave ☎ 14:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

You're repeating yourself without answering the specific thing I asked. Did you not read either of my earlier comments?

In the linked comment you said, "it would need to cover not just the global variation in IQ scores but also its relationship to racial variation in IQ scores." And in my own comment, I had pointed out that the section you removed had already mentioned "patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race". And I asked, "Are you suggesting the section should be more specific that the average scores of nations tend to align with the average scores of populations with ancestry from those regions, and therefore the question of the causes of both types of difference are part of the same debate?" You still haven't answered that. If your problem was that the existing wording was too vague, I also don't see why you couldn't improve that yourself instead of removing the entire section. 2600:1004:B12D:741A:C15B:1789:8738:CD03 (talk) 15:04, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting that specifically. Yes, this is the type of data that would fit within the "global variation of IQ scores" topic, however it would need to be reliably sourced, compliant with NPOV and also connected to race specifically, not just regional ancestry. "NPOV" means that it would need to reflect the mainstream viewpoint and receive very significant coverage; being published in a reliable source does not automatically merit inclusion since peer-reviewed journals often publish emerging or minority views. "patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race" was unsourced, so its presence does not make the section relevant to race and intelligence; did you notice that I mentioned this above in response to JWeiss? –dlthewave ☎ 13:33, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I was asking you to be specific what you want changed about this section, because I wanted to make sure you'd allow it to be added back if your requirements were met.

I would suggest rewriting the first sentence of that section to say, A number of studies have found that differences in average scores between racial or ethnic groups tend to be similar regardless of the region they inhabit, and whether they are a majority or minority group within a country. For example, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese people tend to have higher average scores in both East Asian countries and as immigrant populations in Western countries, while the same is also true of the lower average scores of people of sub-Saharan African origin. And this would be cited to pages 288-289 in Rindermann's Cognitive Capitalism. Rindermann's book specifically mentions Chinese, Japanese, Korean Vietnamese, and sub-Saharan African people, so this is a direct paraphrase of what the source says. Note that Rindermann's book was discussed at RSN here, and the discussion there concluded that it's a reliable source. Would this change address your concern? 2600:1004:B105:F5A1:A997:5864:C95E:CEE5 (talk) 21:27, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

That's a start. It's good that you provided a specific example along with a citation. However, I'm still concerned about the sourcing. The RSN discussion closes with "we can give the views of Rindermann and Hunt, sourced to their books published by the Cambridge University Press, but take care not to promote their views as widely accepted unless/until sources can be found which indicate their views are widely accepted". Sourcing the opening paragraph to Rindermann seems to give undue weight to his viewpoint. It would be good to back up the claim with mainstream sources; if it is widely accepted, this should not be a problem.

The other paragraphs in the section would also need to be rewritten to show a race/nationality/intelligence connection, again sourced to reliable sources and presented in accordance with WP:DUE WEIGHT. Rewriting the first paragraph does not make the entire section on-topic.

I don't have any special requirements for the section, just our standard RS and NPOV policies as well as the special sourcing restriction that is in effect here. It's not my call, a number of concerns were raised by a number of editors. I can't give you a list of specific changes that need to be made, but an editor with access to the right sources should be able to find a way to address the problems. This responsibility lies with editors who wish to include the content. –dlthewave ☎ 02:49, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

As I said before, Hunt's textbook discusses this also, but in Hunt's book the discussion is split between a few different places in the chapter. (He discusses East Asians in one place, and sub-Saharan Africans in a different place.) The Rindermann source is good because it has an overall discussion about the relation between racial IQ gaps and international differences in those two pages.

This lack of specificity about what you want changed about the section is what I've been objecting to. How can you expect other editors to change the section to your satisfaction, when you won't even tell us what specific changes you want? If I'm understanding your comment correctly, it sounds as though you don't even have access to the sources for this section, so your judgement about what is or isn't relevant or NPOV is based on guesswork. You're the person who's boldly removing a section that's been in the article for 5+ years, so are the person who should be justifying your bold change, rather than trying to shift the burden to other editors. 2600:1004:B105:F5A1:A997:5864:C95E:CEE5 (talk) 03:47, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• The content should stay removed. I had a similar concern about the content not being explicitly related by the sources to race. The exchange was:
  • (Me): similar to those associated with race -- according to whom?
  • (Reply): K.e.coffman, anyone who uses common sense and/or skims the demographic summaries of the various nations around the world?

This is not sufficient. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

• The section has once again been restored, this time to a version that does not discuss race. The edit summary "not off topic; the nation discussed are here a reasonable proxy for ethnic and racial groups" is not sufficient, we need appropriate sources to support this and we need to rewrite the content to reflect those sources. Jweiss11 please join us in addressing these issues. –dlthewave ☎ 03:28, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, as I stated above, my argument is that the claim that residents of sub-Saharan Africa are overwhelming black or that residents of East Asia are overwhelmingly East Asian is BLUESKY. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:31, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

As Horse Eye Jack said when you made a similar claim, "That's a very bad argument." –dlthewave ☎ 03:42, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Neither one of you have made a substantive refutation of it. Isn't it the case that residents of sub-Saharan Africa are overwhelming black or that residents of East Asia are overwhelmingly East Asian? Jweiss11 (talk) 03:45, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Exclude IP accounts

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In light of the fact that this page is mentioned on several neo-Nazi webpages (I shall refrain from linking to them) and there are a number of banned/blocked users that have previously been active, I more to ban all IP edits from this article and the talkpage. jps (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse as proposer. jps (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose IPs are already banned from editing the article page, due to it being semi-protected. I don't see the point of them being banned from the talk page as well, given that they should be allowed to have at least the chance to propose their ideas; speaking of which, the IP starting with 2600 had already proposed useful edits and provided helpful sources and arguments in the past. ^{O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲}_{J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅} 22:02, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Since this proposal is obviously directed against me, I won't vote, but I'd like everyone to be aware that this proposal is a clear case of forum shopping. JPS previously requested that this page be semi-protected, so only registered users can edit it, on January 28, and his request was declined. How many times does he intend to keep requesting this? 2600:1004:B117:10E5:D530:D014:5920:FA1 (talk) 22:18, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support - Blocks and bans apply to talk pages as well; semi-protection of the article does not entirely prevent block evasion. Protecting this page would help ensure that arbitration decisions are being enforced. –dlthewave ☎ 22:38, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support per jps and dlthewave, although that restriction will probably have only a minor impact. My impression is that, historically, the problematic editors both on the article and the talk-page have not been predominantly IP-editors. On the other hand, (1) just one or two IP-editors can do a lot of bludgeoning, and (2) an IP-editor might be less inhibited in making white-supremacist or anti-semitic comments. NightHeron (talk) 01:10, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose 2600 is the only always reasonable person on this page. You've got diffs why 2600 should be gotten rid of? Cause that's what your trying to do. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:30, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support reviewing IP edits for the last year suggests that they are in general less than constructive. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:11, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

@Horse Eye Jack: Citation needed. Can you please provide examples? On the contrary, I've seen excellent contributions from 2600, and this move seems to be entirely directed at him. Toomim (talk) 23:32, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

It's largely impossible to provide examples as the IP address changes daily; see sample: Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B15D:697F:F1AB:F59B:5A3B:897D. What I can observe is that the IP is currently a SPA for this page + related discussions on various admin noticeboards, although it's impossible to know what other pages they have edited prior to this one. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:49, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

So are you saying that you can find edits by 2600, but that you think it is impossible to find examples of those edits being problematic? Or did I mis-understand you? Toomim (talk) 11:30, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree that 2600's contributions have been of the most civil and consensus-building of anyone. I think he's done a better job than me to bring together both sides, and that's what this article needs, given how contentious it is. Without him, I fear this process would get even uglier. Finally, the proposer hasn't given us any examples of the problem edits that they are supposedly trying to prevent. Toomim (talk) 23:32, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

And one more important point -- since this issue is so politically-charged, people might be risking their jobs or friends to speak up about it, and we should should allow anonymous edits so that these people can still have a voice. Toomim (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

This makes no sense. IP editing is less anonymous than editing with an account, and editors are responsible for what they say and do on the project as a whole, not just in isolation. Grayfell (talk) 00:59, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Now you are saying that IP editing is *less* anonymous. But that's self-contradicting -- if IP editing is *less* anonymous, then there wouldn't be any "bad people" doing IP editing. They would make accounts. And this whole "ban the IPs" idea would do the opposite of its claimed purpose. --Toomim (talk) 11:56, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I think there's a confusion here between two different types of reasons for anonymity. If users want to simply protect themselves from off-wiki consequences of their editing (such as doxxing/harassment or repercussions at work or with friends/family), the best way to do this is to have an account with a pseudonym. If users want to make it harder for admins to follow what they're doing and impose sanctions when necessary, the surest way to do that is to be an IP-editor with changing IPs. NightHeron (talk) 13:16, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support: Given the previous history of site bans / topic bans for this subject and associated Talk pages. Additionally, using a dynamic IP to edit in a contentious topic area is inappropriate since the constantly changing address helps evade scrutiny by making an entire editing history extremely difficult to trace. Lastly, I don't find this argument about engaging with the topic area compelling: ...people might be risking their jobs or friends to speak up about it, and we should allow anonymous edits so that these people can still have a voice. The same would apply to conspiracy theorists, alt-righters, neo-Nazis, casual racists, anti-semites, etc. It's not important for Wikipedia that their voices be heard. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:50, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

You have provided no examples of these problems.

Also, you cannot censor right-wing POVs from Wikipedia while allowing left-wing POVs. That is an egregious violation of NPOV. (And I am a liberal myself.) --Toomim (talk) 10:02, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

It's not a political issue, so please don't make it into one. The issue is WP:FRINGE. The anti-vaccine movement is usually associated more with the left than the right (e.g., Jill Stein for a while was supporting it). If IP editors were persistently trying to get the anti-vaxx POV into a Wikipedia article and were bludgeoning on the talk page, then it would similarly make sense to block IP editors from those pages. The issue is not left vs right, but rather science vs fringe. Just because in this instance the white-supremacist fringe POV is supported by alt-right sources, that does not mean that people who want to treat that POV in accordance with WP:FRINGE are advancing a left-wing POV. NightHeron (talk) 11:16, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not the one who made it political — K.e.coffman did by saying we should block IP addresses in order to prevent "alt-righters" from participating. He didn't use the word "fringe"; he used the word "right". That is the political right. Trying to block a political orientation from participating in Wikipedia is an egregious violation of NPOV. You are defending that behavior. --Toomim (talk) 11:27, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I read the comment by K.e.coffman to be a list of the types of people who push for fringe views and do not contribute constructively to Wikipedia. There are leftist conspiracy theorists and leftist anti-semites, as you're probably aware, and so K.e.coffman's list is not only of rightists. Also, the term alt-right refers to the fringe wing of the right, not to mainstream conservatives. No one is saying that editors who are on the political right cannot contribute constructively. NightHeron (talk) 13:13, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

The alt-right is a political orientation that describes many millions of people. If you are arguing to block these people from editing Wikipedia, then you are in gross violation of Wikipedia's core principle of NPOV, and someone might report your account to administration. Tread carefully. Toomim (talk) 02:01, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support - The best we've seen from IPs here is WP:CIVILPOV, and that's being generous. IP editing makes it more difficult to keep track of disruptive behavior and sock puppetry, which this article has been especially plagued with for over a decade. Grayfell (talk) 00:59, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

  Can we get some examples of this being a problem? Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:01, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

• Questions - Was there a precedent like this at other articles before? I know that there were occasional failed proposals to globally prevent IP editing. It may also be worth evaluating if some administrators occasionally applied such measures under ARBCOM dicretionary sanctions, or if it should eventually be part of them to protect pages for other reasons than vandalism and obvious edit warring (in this case to prevent IP editing)... In any case, it would never be a proper technical solution to the problem of socks, unless the software itself was improved to automatically report potential socks to admins with CU rights (i.e. with a private backlog of 30 days or more), or accounts had to be confirmed to an actual person's identity (i.e. at OTRS discretion). But it would indeed make it easier for other editors and discussion closers to identify SPAs, for admins to sanction disruptive editors and handle obvious socks manually, as well as for new editors on the topic to learn, as they would have a stable talk page. —PaleoNeonate – 04:41, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the circumstances that led to it, but Category:Wikipedia semi-protected talk pages shows that there is some precedent for semi-sprotecting article talk pages. –dlthewave ☎ 04:54, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Seems an obvious attempt to get rid of the contributions of the frequent 2600 IP editor. OP's unsubstantiated claim about Nazis posting this page are irrelevant to Wikipedia policies. I do not understand why we cannot just work within the normal rules on this page, but every lawyer trick in the book must be attempted. In any case, I don't think this is just something one can make a vote for, and then bring in one's friends for majority. AndewNguyen (talk) 13:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

By implying that people you disagree with are canvassing, you are accusing other editors of acting in bad faith. This is also an odd point to make, since several of the people commenting here are near-WP:SPAs, including you. You cannot have it both ways. The article has a documented history of being targeted by multiple long-term abuse accounts. Sorry, but I'm not inclined to dig through the 100 pages of archives to point to specific examples right now. Also, Wikipedia is not a platform for Nazis, and linking to Nazi websites would be unacceptably disruptive, so saying this is "unsubstantiated " completely misses the point. Grayfell (talk) 21:39, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Ok. None of you can provide any examples of the problems that blocking IP addresses will solve. It's time to give up on this idea. Also, that article on WP:NONAZIS says This is an essay. This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines. Please don't masquerade that as an actual Wikipedia policy . --Toomim (talk) 23:21, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I didn't vote yet but did include rationale: But it would indeed make it easier for other editors and discussion closers to identify SPAs, for admins to sanction disruptive editors and handle obvious socks manually, as well as for new editors on the topic to learn, as they would have a stable talk page. In any case, please let people vote instead of deciding for everyone yourself? —PaleoNeonate – 00:11, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

This isn't a vote; it's a consensus process. Consensus requires both sides trying to find consensus. However, in this case, the 'support' side refuses to provide examples of the problems they are talking about. If they are not trying to find consensus, then consensus cannot proceed, and it's time to give this up. --Toomim (talk) 01:48, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

I am not currently getting involved in editing this page, nor taking sides in this or any other matter, but an example of the problem can be found on this page, scroll up to the rename section, and see the contributions from 2605:8D80:668:39E9:DB8E:11E8:912F:2CD0. These come from the (often) banned sock, Sprayitchyo[2]. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:22, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

ETA I will balance that comment with my observation (made elsewhere) that the IP editor 2600:1004:b1/40 appears to be in good faith, and has made a statement that they cannot use cookies. the Wikipedia technical FAQ is clear that cookies are required to edit with an account, and although most of us accept cookies as a norm, I do have sympathy for those who wish to reject all cookies. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:18, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

As several others have already pointed out, the context in which this proposal was made makes it obvious that it is directed against me, not against the other IP. (In fact, it was made directly in response to one of my posts.) If the purpose of this proposal were to exclude the other IP, it would have been made two weeks ago, which is the last - and I think, only - time the other IP has commented on this page. Almost all of the support for the proposal is coming from people who have disagreed with me about the content of this article.

Much has been made on this page about how "local consensus" isn't enough for certain proposals. I suppose we'll find out soon whether local consensus among the people who've disagreed with an editor on a page is enough to exclude that editor from commenting there. 2600:1004:B155:9EA4:EC0F:A884:87A9:BC55 (talk) 13:28, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support - The answer to PaleoNeonate's question above, "Was there a precedent like this at other articles before?" is yes. Remedy 3.3.1 from the abortion arbitration case provides such a precedent;

The articles and corresponding talk pages relating to Abortion shall be semi-protected for a period of three years from the conclusion of this case, such that no non-autoconfirmed editor (including IP address editors) shall edit them. Editors in good standing who wish to edit such topics under a single additional account not linked to their identity may do so under the provisions of WP:SOCK#LEGIT and WP:SOCK#NOTIFY.

I found this remedy very effective in reducing the need to continuously assume good faith with every new or random IP editor. On contentious articles such as this IP editors tend to be socks or meats more times than not. Their ability to game WP:AGF and use civil POV pushing tactics makes what is already a very difficult editing job into a practical impossibility. A decade is long enough. Any reasonable actions that will help editors work constructively on this article should be taken. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 04:44, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much, ArtifexMayhem. —PaleoNeonate – 04:52, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support - Problematic-enough subject area to consider the measure. —PaleoNeonate – 04:52, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
• Strong support. There is the serious likelihood of editors seeking to use IP addresses like sockpuppet accounts. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:31, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose While article talk pages are occasionally protected from IP editing, that's a last resort and in only the most egregious of cases (non-stop vandalism, libel, copyvios etc). I see no evidence that this page is anywhere near that stage (yet), and indeed, despite requests, there seems to be a curious inability to produce diffs (=evidence) of much IP wrongdoing at all.
  While I don't see it as being an obvious attempt to get rid of the contributions of anyone, I think it is a good faith attempt to solve a problem yet to occur, which is both against policy and is contrary to the open nature of Wikipedia. This should only be done in situations where blatant vandalism or disruption is occurring—a situation which seems yet to occur. ——SN54129 11:43, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Having skimmed through the "discussion" on this page a good bit, it seems obvious that this move is a targeted one that has everything to do with shutting down one specific contributor and nothing to do with the quality of the article or discussion on this talk page. Only the OP can know whether that's the case, or if this is actually a misguided attempt at stopping some unnamed wrongdoing that's yet to be presented here, some clarification would be appreciated. Going by what I can see, this looks to be an attempt to prevent discussion; not a move to better discuss the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.198.2 (talk) 02:34, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - There is no evidence of disruption on this talk page, and the disruption to the article has been handled sufficiently with a semi-protect. This is an inappropriate request, and IPs are editors too. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:07, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Mr rnddude. IP editors appear to be no better or worse than editors with usernames on this page.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 14:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. A decision of this nature should only be made on a community-wide basis. Bus stop (talk) 16:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I have requested administrator action on this proposal at WP:AE: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Race_and_intelligence. jps (talk) 16:51, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I reverted, again. Do you like it? Do you not like it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Race_and_intelligence&diff=942698394&oldid=942674047

Seems the same as the last 10 times. Arguing particular policies and guidelines doesn't seem to have any postive effect. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 08:10, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

It does seem off topic though, this page is about Race and intelligence... Global variation of IQ scores is only tangentially related and isn't part of the core topic at all. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 08:24, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

This came up earlier with great arguments for why it is applicable. I think it was just a few days ago. Basically that's one way that reliable sources look at things.

You think it's tangentially related. I think it's completely unrelated. But realiable sources think it is related. Shoot! I guess they win. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 08:40, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

If you self reverted, that would be awesome. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 08:42, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

That discussion is still open, no consensus has been reached. Why restore the disputed content *before* consensus is reached? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 09:09, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

The edit summary for Dlthewave's removal was "see talk page", but it's unclear what talk page discussion he means.

This section was last discussed on the talk page about ten days ago. In that discussion I mentioned that the books by Hunt, Mackintosh and Rindermann all make a connection between racial IQ gaps and international differences, and Onetwothreeip replied that the removal was justified because Hunt and Rindermann's books are not reliable sources. The justification for the removal depends on that argument being correct. In response to that argument, I raised the question at the RS noticeboard, and the discussion there reached a conclusion that Hunt's and Rindermann's books do, in fact, satisfy the requirements of RS policy. Thus, based on the conclusion of the RSN discussion, the argument for removing this section seems to no longer be supported. 2600:1004:B112:19F4:748E:E57B:DD2C:7DF9 (talk) 08:45, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion is "Global variation of IQ scores" further up on this page. I've written a summary of the arguments presented there and explained why I removed the section. Chief among my concerns is the fact that the section doesn't discuss race-nationality connection. The existence of sources that mention it is not sufficient for inclusion; the section would need to be rewritten to include it and nobody seems interested in doing so. Please discuss this in the existing talk page section. –dlthewave ☎ 14:46, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Dlthewave, I asked in my comment here what it was exactly that you think needs to be changed about that section, given that the section already mentions "patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race". I asked whether the problem is that that sentence isn't specific enough. This question was never answered directly, except to say that the section must be removed because the sources I was suggesting (Hunt's and Rindermann's books) were not reliable. The discussion at RSN then concluded that these sources are in fact reliable, and that was the end of the discussion about this section, until you went ahead and removed it three days ago.

You have been frustratingly vague about what the actual problem is with the section's existing discussion about the relation between IQ gaps between ethnic groups and between nations. If you think the section must be rewritten before it can be restored, could you please answer my question directly? 2600:1004:B146:7C71:C16E:37FA:6C52:4ACF (talk) 19:22, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

You appear to be mischaracterizing the discussion on this talk page. You also mischaracterize the RSN consensus which concludes "The remaining concern was that the views of Rindermann and Hunt may be Fringe. The discussion indicated that there is a lack of sources supporting or opposing the notion that the views in these books are fringe, though when a viewpoint does not have wide support, we do treat it as fringe, and do not give it undue weight. That is, we can give the views of Rindermann and Hunt, sourced to their books published by the Cambridge University Press, but take care not to promote their views as widely accepted unless/until sources can be found which indicate their views are widely accepted.” Having an entire section rather than a simple mention suggests that such views are widely accepted. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 09:09, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

How many sources do I have to provide showing that this section is relevant before you'll allow it to be restored? I've already provided three, two of which are major textbooks. A fourth source that makes the connection, which was just published a few days ago, is Winegard et al. 2020. I can probably find others, but it seems like you might be applying an impossibly high standard. 2600:1004:B112:19F4:748E:E57B:DD2C:7DF9 (talk) 09:27, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I don’t see that argument being made explicitly in Winegard et al. 2020, can you pull the quotes? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 09:34, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

There is a section of the paper titled, "Global distribution of IQ". The section is too long to quote the entire thing, but it starts on the paper's sixth page. 2600:1004:B112:19F4:748E:E57B:DD2C:7DF9 (talk) 09:41, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes I’ve read that section, its only three paragraphs and is implicit rather than explicit. The limited space Winegard et al. dedicate to the section (and make no mistake Winegard et al. are outside of the mainstream) suggest to me that we are giving it undue prominence here, no? Also note the point of the paper "we attempt to make the philosophical and theoretical case that hereditarianism—the view that a substantial proportion (20% or more) of differences in psychological traits within and among human popu-lations is caused by genes—is more fruitful, parsimonious, and pro-ductive than is environmentalism—the view that almost all of the dif-ferences in psychological traits either within or among humanpopulations is caused by environmental forces.” Horse Eye Jack (talk) 09:56, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I’d be more comfortable with a source or two that wasn’t pushing a strong POV. Keep in mind that you are a WP:SPA and "single purpose accounts and editors who hold a strong personal viewpoint on a particular topic covered within Wikipedia are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project.” Horse Eye Jack (talk) 10:03, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

The section of the Winegard paper is around 500 words in a paper that's around 10,000 words long, so it's about five percent of the paper's total length. Percentage wise, that's actually more than the amount of space this topic was given in the Wikipedia article, where it was around 580K of text in an article that's around 150,000K long. In any case, I'm not trying to base my argument entirely on that single paper. I was just giving it as an example because it's the most recent paper to be published on this article's topic.

Have you looked at the Hunt and Mackintosh textbooks? Hunt is basically agnostic about the cause of the gaps (he thinks some genetic contribution to racial IQ gaps is likely, but that there is insufficient data to know its size, and the genetic contribution might be minuscule), while Mackintosh is agnostic but thinks a 100% environmental cause is more likely than a partially genetic one. And both textbooks bring up international IQ differences in the context of discussions about race and intelligence. 2600:1004:B112:19F4:748E:E57B:DD2C:7DF9 (talk) 10:36, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

By the way, in addition to the Hunt, Mackintosh, Rindermann, and Winegard et al. sources, a fifth source that discusses international IQ differences in this context is Flynn's 2012 book Are We Getting Smarter?. James Flynn is firmly in the "environmental" camp with respect to the cause of IQ variance between ethnic groups, but he also is one of the more moderate voices on that side, so his book is not really "pushing a strong POV". 2600:1004:B107:64A3:ED2C:F2BD:D1B5:7B42 (talk) 01:11, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Horse Eye Jack, are you going to respond to my comments here? I've made several attempts to discuss the specifics of what needs to be changed about this section or sources that support its relevance, but in each case the editors removing the section have either dodged the question, or have dropped out of the discussion as soon as it began making progress towards resolving the dispute. 2600:1004:B10C:DF3:D9A6:8155:B0C0:A846 (talk) 05:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I generally don’t continue responding to WP:SPA users beating a dead horse. You’re not being constructive so it isn't worth my, or any other editor's, time. Have a wonderful day. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:01, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Duplicate discussion

The subject was already discussed at #Global_variation_of_IQ_scores. It's unclear why a separate discussion was needed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:44, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

You're probably right. I can't barely tell anymore. Are we arguing about a paragraph(s) that got removed 5 days ago, or 3 days ago, or just today. Do that enough and I'll add something I meant to remove, or remove something I meant to add. Good strategy! Peregrine Fisher (talk) 10:32, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

RfC on race and intelligence at WP:FTN

See Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#RfC on race and intelligence

The RfC asks whether the claim that there are genetic differences in intelligence along racial lines is a fringe viewpoint. NightHeron (talk) 23:51, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2020

The claim made is that the "Eyferth Study" is an adoption study. It is not. It is an admixture study. Marty Martinson (talk) 20:56, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a page on it: Eyferth study. It is a mixture between an admixture study and an adoption study. The children did not have much contact with their biological fathers, so were not affected by whatever environment related to the fathers. However, they did grow up with their biological. Thus, under some assumptions, this allows for causal inference of the effects of genetics vs. environment. --AndewNguyen (talk) 09:34, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 05:14, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Removing false balance from lead

I removed false balance from the lead, in keeping with the recent decisions at WP:Fringe theories/Noticeboard (see [3]) and at WP:Administrators' noticeboard (see [4]) that the claim that some races are genetically inferior to other races in intelligence is fringe. NightHeron (talk) 21:37, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. This is an appropriate edit which improves the article. Grayfell (talk) 22:10, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• I disagree. The current wording is neutral and accurate. Please make one change at a time. Reverted. The current wording is in line with the outcome of the RfC; the lead clearly states "At present, there is no direct evidence that these differences in test scores have a genetic component". What WP:FALSEBALANCE are you removing in the lead? The lead doesn't have citations but from what I can see generally summarises the rest of the article well. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 22:45, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

We don't have to look far to see how easy it is to grind things to a halt by expecting that every minute change be discussed to death. The many RFCs show a clear appetite for change from the wider community. Your opinion on the lead is noted, but without the ability to make changes like this, the article will stagnate... or is that the point? Grayfell (talk) 23:03, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

The claim "no direct evidence" implies that there's some other type of evidence. In the numerous discussions of this, apologists for scientific racism claimed that there's circumstantial evidence of genetic racial inferiority. There were also other places in the lead that violated WP:FALSEBALANCE. We don't have to re-discuss every little point, now that a community consensus has been reached and overwhelmingly upheld at WP:Administrators' noticeboard that claims of racial genetic inferiority in intelligence are fringe.

I put a warning on User:Insertcleverphrasehere's talk-page about edit-warring, after the second revert in less than 2 hours, which violates the 1RR protection on this page. NightHeron (talk) 23:20, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Other examples of false balance in the lead: is the subject of much dispute and remains controversial among researchers. My revision removes these violations of WP:FRINGE and avoids weasel wording. NightHeron (talk) 23:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

This was previously discussed here. See this comment by user:Sirfurboy in particular. "No direct evidence" is a very close paraphrase of the wording used by one of the article's sources (the Nisbett et al. paper). The outcome of the RFC can't supersede the requirement for this article to reflect what reliable sources say. 2600:1004:B11A:E74E:DD3F:340B:3C9B:851E (talk) 23:37, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. The fact that the phrase "no direct evidence" occurred in someone's paper is irrelevant. In the context of the lead of this article the phrase gives the misleading impression that some other (unspecified) type of evidence exists. Based on all the lengthy arguments you've made over the last few months, I assume that this is precisely why you're fighting to keep the wording "no direct evidence;" that is, you presumably want the lead to suggest that there's some unspecified indirect evidence.

We don't say "There's no direct evidence that the Universe was created in 7 days around 4000 years ago;" or "There's no direct evidence that homeopathy can work better than modern medicine." When talking about fringe theories, one says "no evidence," not "no direct evidence." NightHeron (talk) 00:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)